Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 banpai Aug 28, 2008 17:51:52	Here is it - hopefully explaining stuff http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20080828a
#2 krownhunter07 Aug 28, 2008 18:02:09	Show Starting Points in the New Edition Philip Athans: Discussions about a new edition of the FORGOTTEN REALMS world began in the late spring of 2005. As the FORGOTTEN REALMS novel line editor, I was pulled into the discussions early. I’m not quite sure when the idea of jumping the timeline forward was first proposed, or even who first proposed it, but after spending a couple weeks mulling it over, I was an early and enthusiastic supporter of the idea. Bruce Cordell: At first glance, the century leap forward is the most shocking part of the new FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It is a jaw-dropping change. But it wasn’t a decision made lightly. In fact, it was felt something drastic had to happen in order to breathe new life into a shared world whose well-trampled edges were quickly approaching. Many believed that if something bold wasn’t done to expand the canvas, the world would begin to die beneath its own extensive history of novels and game products. How do you do something like that without reinventing the entire world? A two-fold plan emerged: A great leap into the future would allow nearly every part of Faerûn to appear fresh to everyone, both new fans and old. No one could be intimately familiar with the previous century’s happenings. Every place would have some element of novelty simply because a century can’t pass without even the most stable of kingdoms seeing some shift or alteration. The other part of the plan involved literally bringing completely “new” lands into the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. With Ed Greenwood’s help, the real forgotten realm of Abeir returned to Toril, in the midst of a cataclysm of unleashed wild magic. PA: By the end of June, Bruce Cordell, Richard Baker, and I were assembled as the FORGOTTEN REALMS revision team. That summer we participated in a series of long meetings in which we hammered out the FORGOTTEN REALMS 4th edition “Revision Guide,” a document that would later morph, with the help of a lot more people, into the 4th Edition FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide. BRC: They were long meetings followed by long writing sessions to create drafts of what we’d just discussed, followed by more meetings. We talked about every realm, great and small, including the cosmology. Indeed, the cosmology we settled on as one that would work best for FORGOTTEN REALMS was the cosmology that the D&D core rules itself accepted—excluding the particular deities, of course. PA: Before we got into the specifics of what the new edition of FORGOTTEN REALMS would look like, we wanted to be sure we had a clear shared understanding of what the FORGOTTEN REALMS was then, and what we all wanted it to be like. We worked together, and with a number of key people both inside and outside of Wizards of the Coast, we organized our principles for the new edition around nine core ideals. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FORGOTTEN REALMS Core Ideals What is this world? What is it all about? Where should we be taking it? 1. It’s exactly what it says it is: a world of ancient realms to explore and discover. PA: By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover. We’d spent the last fifteen years or so detailing just about every nook and cranny of the map, in hundreds of books, game products, short stories, comic books, Dragon articles, and Dungeon adventures. There was hardly a square centimeter on the poster map that wasn’t detailed somewhere, and frankly it was getting harder and harder to find room to tell a story. Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store. BRC: Even my own first steps in novel fiction showed me how the novels and games were having to move to obscure spots to tell new stories. Darkvision takes place largely in Durpar, a country hardly even on the map. Stardeep was hidden away in a hardly visited eladrin realm behind the Yuirwood forest in Aglarond. Other folks were finding themselves similarly squeezed to the edges—even long-time writers in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It was a trend the editors noted first. What do you do when all the ancient realms have already been explored and discovered? Aside from jumping the timeline enough to be significant and splicing lost worlds back into the core setting, one thing we could do is to change how the very rules of D&D work. That opportunity was serendipitous, and it was a fantastic chance for us to see all of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting through a completely new lens. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. It’s a thousand stories, all happening at once. PA: From the novel line point of view, the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has always succeeded because there is no core story. It isn’t a world where if you weren’t a member of, say, the Fellowship of the Ring, all you were really doing was watching the real heroes. The world has to have room for a 4th level D&D character, or the apprentice mage from the next novel, to save, if not the world, then his or her little part of it and not feel unimportant or left out. BRC: In a world where Elminster is merely the tip of an epic level legion of NPC good guys, the opportunity for less powerful PCs and less epic stories was small. Certainly, NPC good guys exist all over the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, but few of them should be as capable as the PCs. Because of the very nature of the player characters, they are special, a cut above other folks and even potentially touched by fate to one day take up an epic destiny. PA: Even as we discussed the various agents of change that would help us introduce new elements for the D&D game into the setting, we knew that just like there shouldn’t be one set of heroes, there shouldn’t be one single agent of change. Though the Spellplague has had a huge impact on the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, it’s not the only thing that’s happened in the hundred years between editions. It’s not the only explanation for why things work or look different. BRC: Speaking of the Spellplague, even though I was one of its original proponents, I feel like the concept got far too much promotion, both prior to the release of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide, and in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide itself. At the time where this 4th Edition of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is set, over ninety years have passed since the Spellplague. Most folks in Faerûn don’t give the Year of Blue Fire a second thought or wonder how strange it was that there used to be a goddess of magic. Yes, it was a cataclysmic event in its day, but that day is long past. Many other factors are responsible for changes to the landscape and cosmology—so many that the Spellplague is mostly a memory (except for those places where pockets yet linger). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. It’s a place where your character can be the most important person in the world or die in anonymity. PA: This was a message that should have been getting out all along, but somewhere along the way—was it the Time of Troubles?—a notion emerged among the readers and players that the FORGOTTEN REALMS was a world built for a small group of superheroes and a place to read about their adventures. It didn’t have room for more heroes. Wow, did we have to make sure people knew that wasn’t the case, and back that up with a world that put a greater emphasis on villains and that asked you to be the hero. BRC: The new FORGOTTEN REALMS setting delivers bad guys in droves: the Shadovar and Thay, of course, but also strange threats out of Abeir, including not only dragon-ruled nations, but even realms recently ruled by primordials! And there’s that floating city of ancient creatures that hovers in a perpetual storm over the Sea of Fallen Stars. Just what is the Aboleth Sovereignty up to? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. It’s a fully realized world, full of history and legend. PA: I think the best example of this is one we used in various presentations in the past. Core D&D will give you the rules for a +1 longsword, but in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting that +1 longsword is the Platinum Tongue of Garthak, fashioned as the parade sword for Garthak Hammerfist, patriarch of the dwarven clan of Hammerfist, one of the ruling houses of ancient Gauntlgrym. Everything in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has a story. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. It’s a vibrant, ever-changing world that is constantly moving forward. PA: For years we’ve been closely watching sales trends of the novels and seeing that, without exception, books that move the world forward, however incrementally, tend to outsell books that go back into the past or that have less or no effect on the greater setting. What we call “Realms-shaking events,” like Troy Denning’s Return of the Archwizards series or Mel Odom’s The Threat from the Sea series, had become the rocky center of the FORGOTTEN REALMS novel line. As we talked about resetting the FORGOTTEN REALMS world, we knew that what we were really doing was establishing a new starting point, and that the world would evolve and grow from there. BRC: The Realms-shaking events that drive sales for the novels are a dichotomy and ongoing tension in the game. From the point of view of game setting design, it’s hard to write a definitive “Guide to the FORGOTTEN REALMS” when you know that a year down the line, three different novel lines will have killed off, altered, or in some other way changed basic features described in that putative “guide.” But as Phil notes, moving forward is fun. Not moving the game world side of things forward with the novels would mean stagnation for the game setting. Everyone wants to feel they are part of the same dynamic world described in The Orc King, Shadowrealm, or Swordmage. PA: We made sure that at least some of the transition stories were told in novel trilogies. In these novels, the fans can see in detail the development of new or the destruction of old realms (like the establishment of the Kingdom of Many-Arrows or the fall of the city of Luskan in R.A. Salvatore’s Transitions series), changes in the pantheon (as in Lisa Smedman’s The Lady Penitent series and R.A. Salvatore’s The Ghost King), shifts in the halls of power (Paul S. Kemp’s The Twilight War series), or the reordering of the cosmos itself (in Thomas M. Reid’s The Empyrean Odyssey series). BRC: Phil has nicely set me up to either ignore a chance to plug myself or dive in. I’m diving in: The Abolethic Sovereignty trilogy explores how the city of Xxiphu came to be stationed over Faerûn and what its presence portends, if strict vigil over its beslimed residents is not kept. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6. It’s core D&D “plus.” PA: We started out with the absolute conviction that the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide would render no part of the core D&D rulebooks obsolete and vice versa. Every D&D race, class, monster, and magic item has its place in the FORGOTTEN REALMS world, and we’ll give you more, like the swordmage and the genasi. No matter what, the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is a Dungoens & Dragons world. BRC: Indeed, core D&D and the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting have never been closer. A DM can pick up the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide and use one or two of its nicely contained regions in his own game if he wishes. I think a lot of D&D campaigns will find themselves with genasi PCs, swordmages, and perhaps even spellscarred PCs touched by the fire of wild magic—even those campaigns that do not take place on Toril. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7. It’s contemporary fantasy. PA: Though 3rd Edition D&D went a long way in updating the look and feel of the FORGOTTEN REALMS world, we knew we still had a long way to go before it felt truly contemporary. This core ideal informed pervasively. How do we preserve the spirit of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, while making it look like a 21st century fantasy property—one that would appeal to a contemporary audience? I think the art, the political and philosophical ambiguity, and the sheer scope of the revised setting shows you just how far the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has come from its 1980s roots. BRC: Here’s one example. The great and ever-increasing popularity of eastern fighting styles and eastern myths sees a similarly increased profile in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. Shou from down the Golden Way have continued to settle in Faerûn, and they have claimed a nation all their own west of the Sea of Fallen Stars that they have named Nathlan. Extraordinary feats of martial proficiency abound in these regions. When the day comes that the monk and related character classes sees the light of day in a future Player’s Handbook, you can expect Nathlan, Telflamm, portions of Westgate, and other places similarly Shou-settled to catch fire with possibility. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8. It’s 50% all new. PA: Okay, don’t hold us to that 50% figure exactly. I’m not sure there’s even a way to measure what percentage of it is new, but that’s the core ideal we started with. We knew we wanted big parts of the map to be marked, for all intents and purposes: “Here Be Dragons.” This goes back to the first point: If the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is a place for your characters to explore, there better be some stuff you haven’t seen before! BRC: Apparently I’m example boy on this article. Well, here’s another: Returned Abeir—an entire content flush with new wonder and conceived by Ed Greenwood’s bountiful pen, no less. Other portions of Abeir fell into Toril, too, but they are now part of Faerûn: the dragonborn land of Tymanther and the genasi-ruled badlands of Akanûl. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9. We’re not retconning. We’re assuming that everything that was, was. PA: I guess you could call this the “not throwing out the baby or the bathwater” rule. If it happened in a novel or in a game product—any part of the FORGOTTEN REALMS canon—it happened. We aren’t going to ask you to buy a copy of The Grand History of the Realms then throw it away. Every detail ever published on this massive setting is still there, is still a part of the history of this living, breathing world. We may have a hundred years’ worth of distance from it, but it happened, and all that history will continue to inform authors, game designers, players, and DMs as they continue to explore the FORGOTTEN REALMS world. BRC: You know, there might be a couple niggling little details that the 4th Edition rules insist upon that we may just ignore. For instance, I doubt you’ll see a three-novel epic on how halflings grew, on average, an extra foot. But barring strange little bits like that, if a story has been told about something to establish it in the previous setting edition, then another story describes how that feature reached its current manifestation in the 4th Edition FORGOTTEN REALMS setting—even if we haven’t yet told you that story. It’s a wide world filled new opportunity. I can’t wait for my Elfharrow elf barbarian character to go on his next adventure. When’s that going to be, Phil? PA: The week after we get back from Gen Con Indy!
#3 thecasualoblivion Aug 28, 2008 18:34:58	This has a topic over on Running the Realms, but it deserves to be discussed here as well: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20080828a Enjoy
#4 krownhunter07 Aug 28, 2008 18:37:25	...and again... Show Starting Points in the New Edition Philip Athans: Discussions about a new edition of the FORGOTTEN REALMS world began in the late spring of 2005. As the FORGOTTEN REALMS novel line editor, I was pulled into the discussions early. I’m not quite sure when the idea of jumping the timeline forward was first proposed, or even who first proposed it, but after spending a couple weeks mulling it over, I was an early and enthusiastic supporter of the idea. Bruce Cordell: At first glance, the century leap forward is the most shocking part of the new FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It is a jaw-dropping change. But it wasn’t a decision made lightly. In fact, it was felt something drastic had to happen in order to breathe new life into a shared world whose well-trampled edges were quickly approaching. Many believed that if something bold wasn’t done to expand the canvas, the world would begin to die beneath its own extensive history of novels and game products. How do you do something like that without reinventing the entire world? A two-fold plan emerged: A great leap into the future would allow nearly every part of Faerûn to appear fresh to everyone, both new fans and old. No one could be intimately familiar with the previous century’s happenings. Every place would have some element of novelty simply because a century can’t pass without even the most stable of kingdoms seeing some shift or alteration. The other part of the plan involved literally bringing completely “new” lands into the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. With Ed Greenwood’s help, the real forgotten realm of Abeir returned to Toril, in the midst of a cataclysm of unleashed wild magic. PA: By the end of June, Bruce Cordell, Richard Baker, and I were assembled as the FORGOTTEN REALMS revision team. That summer we participated in a series of long meetings in which we hammered out the FORGOTTEN REALMS 4th edition “Revision Guide,” a document that would later morph, with the help of a lot more people, into the 4th Edition FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide. BRC: They were long meetings followed by long writing sessions to create drafts of what we’d just discussed, followed by more meetings. We talked about every realm, great and small, including the cosmology. Indeed, the cosmology we settled on as one that would work best for FORGOTTEN REALMS was the cosmology that the D&D core rules itself accepted—excluding the particular deities, of course. PA: Before we got into the specifics of what the new edition of FORGOTTEN REALMS would look like, we wanted to be sure we had a clear shared understanding of what the FORGOTTEN REALMS was then, and what we all wanted it to be like. We worked together, and with a number of key people both inside and outside of Wizards of the Coast, we organized our principles for the new edition around nine core ideals. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FORGOTTEN REALMS Core Ideals What is this world? What is it all about? Where should we be taking it? 1. It’s exactly what it says it is: a world of ancient realms to explore and discover. PA: By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover. We’d spent the last fifteen years or so detailing just about every nook and cranny of the map, in hundreds of books, game products, short stories, comic books, Dragon articles, and Dungeon adventures. There was hardly a square centimeter on the poster map that wasn’t detailed somewhere, and frankly it was getting harder and harder to find room to tell a story. Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store. BRC: Even my own first steps in novel fiction showed me how the novels and games were having to move to obscure spots to tell new stories. Darkvision takes place largely in Durpar, a country hardly even on the map. Stardeep was hidden away in a hardly visited eladrin realm behind the Yuirwood forest in Aglarond. Other folks were finding themselves similarly squeezed to the edges—even long-time writers in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It was a trend the editors noted first. What do you do when all the ancient realms have already been explored and discovered? Aside from jumping the timeline enough to be significant and splicing lost worlds back into the core setting, one thing we could do is to change how the very rules of D&D work. That opportunity was serendipitous, and it was a fantastic chance for us to see all of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting through a completely new lens. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. It’s a thousand stories, all happening at once. PA: From the novel line point of view, the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has always succeeded because there is no core story. It isn’t a world where if you weren’t a member of, say, the Fellowship of the Ring, all you were really doing was watching the real heroes. The world has to have room for a 4th level D&D character, or the apprentice mage from the next novel, to save, if not the world, then his or her little part of it and not feel unimportant or left out. BRC: In a world where Elminster is merely the tip of an epic level legion of NPC good guys, the opportunity for less powerful PCs and less epic stories was small. Certainly, NPC good guys exist all over the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, but few of them should be as capable as the PCs. Because of the very nature of the player characters, they are special, a cut above other folks and even potentially touched by fate to one day take up an epic destiny. PA: Even as we discussed the various agents of change that would help us introduce new elements for the D&D game into the setting, we knew that just like there shouldn’t be one set of heroes, there shouldn’t be one single agent of change. Though the Spellplague has had a huge impact on the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, it’s not the only thing that’s happened in the hundred years between editions. It’s not the only explanation for why things work or look different. BRC: Speaking of the Spellplague, even though I was one of its original proponents, I feel like the concept got far too much promotion, both prior to the release of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide, and in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide itself. At the time where this 4th Edition of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is set, over ninety years have passed since the Spellplague. Most folks in Faerûn don’t give the Year of Blue Fire a second thought or wonder how strange it was that there used to be a goddess of magic. Yes, it was a cataclysmic event in its day, but that day is long past. Many other factors are responsible for changes to the landscape and cosmology—so many that the Spellplague is mostly a memory (except for those places where pockets yet linger). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. It’s a place where your character can be the most important person in the world or die in anonymity. PA: This was a message that should have been getting out all along, but somewhere along the way—was it the Time of Troubles?—a notion emerged among the readers and players that the FORGOTTEN REALMS was a world built for a small group of superheroes and a place to read about their adventures. It didn’t have room for more heroes. Wow, did we have to make sure people knew that wasn’t the case, and back that up with a world that put a greater emphasis on villains and that asked you to be the hero. BRC: The new FORGOTTEN REALMS setting delivers bad guys in droves: the Shadovar and Thay, of course, but also strange threats out of Abeir, including not only dragon-ruled nations, but even realms recently ruled by primordials! And there’s that floating city of ancient creatures that hovers in a perpetual storm over the Sea of Fallen Stars. Just what is the Aboleth Sovereignty up to? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. It’s a fully realized world, full of history and legend. PA: I think the best example of this is one we used in various presentations in the past. Core D&D will give you the rules for a +1 longsword, but in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting that +1 longsword is the Platinum Tongue of Garthak, fashioned as the parade sword for Garthak Hammerfist, patriarch of the dwarven clan of Hammerfist, one of the ruling houses of ancient Gauntlgrym. Everything in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has a story. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. It’s a vibrant, ever-changing world that is constantly moving forward. PA: For years we’ve been closely watching sales trends of the novels and seeing that, without exception, books that move the world forward, however incrementally, tend to outsell books that go back into the past or that have less or no effect on the greater setting. What we call “Realms-shaking events,” like Troy Denning’s Return of the Archwizards series or Mel Odom’s The Threat from the Sea series, had become the rocky center of the FORGOTTEN REALMS novel line. As we talked about resetting the FORGOTTEN REALMS world, we knew that what we were really doing was establishing a new starting point, and that the world would evolve and grow from there. BRC: The Realms-shaking events that drive sales for the novels are a dichotomy and ongoing tension in the game. From the point of view of game setting design, it’s hard to write a definitive “Guide to the FORGOTTEN REALMS” when you know that a year down the line, three different novel lines will have killed off, altered, or in some other way changed basic features described in that putative “guide.” But as Phil notes, moving forward is fun. Not moving the game world side of things forward with the novels would mean stagnation for the game setting. Everyone wants to feel they are part of the same dynamic world described in The Orc King, Shadowrealm, or Swordmage. PA: We made sure that at least some of the transition stories were told in novel trilogies. In these novels, the fans can see in detail the development of new or the destruction of old realms (like the establishment of the Kingdom of Many-Arrows or the fall of the city of Luskan in R.A. Salvatore’s Transitions series), changes in the pantheon (as in Lisa Smedman’s The Lady Penitent series and R.A. Salvatore’s The Ghost King), shifts in the halls of power (Paul S. Kemp’s The Twilight War series), or the reordering of the cosmos itself (in Thomas M. Reid’s The Empyrean Odyssey series). BRC: Phil has nicely set me up to either ignore a chance to plug myself or dive in. I’m diving in: The Abolethic Sovereignty trilogy explores how the city of Xxiphu came to be stationed over Faerûn and what its presence portends, if strict vigil over its beslimed residents is not kept. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6. It’s core D&D “plus.” PA: We started out with the absolute conviction that the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide would render no part of the core D&D rulebooks obsolete and vice versa. Every D&D race, class, monster, and magic item has its place in the FORGOTTEN REALMS world, and we’ll give you more, like the swordmage and the genasi. No matter what, the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is a Dungoens & Dragons world. BRC: Indeed, core D&D and the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting have never been closer. A DM can pick up the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide and use one or two of its nicely contained regions in his own game if he wishes. I think a lot of D&D campaigns will find themselves with genasi PCs, swordmages, and perhaps even spellscarred PCs touched by the fire of wild magic—even those campaigns that do not take place on Toril. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7. It’s contemporary fantasy. PA: Though 3rd Edition D&D went a long way in updating the look and feel of the FORGOTTEN REALMS world, we knew we still had a long way to go before it felt truly contemporary. This core ideal informed pervasively. How do we preserve the spirit of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, while making it look like a 21st century fantasy property—one that would appeal to a contemporary audience? I think the art, the political and philosophical ambiguity, and the sheer scope of the revised setting shows you just how far the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has come from its 1980s roots. BRC: Here’s one example. The great and ever-increasing popularity of eastern fighting styles and eastern myths sees a similarly increased profile in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. Shou from down the Golden Way have continued to settle in Faerûn, and they have claimed a nation all their own west of the Sea of Fallen Stars that they have named Nathlan. Extraordinary feats of martial proficiency abound in these regions. When the day comes that the monk and related character classes sees the light of day in a future Player’s Handbook, you can expect Nathlan, Telflamm, portions of Westgate, and other places similarly Shou-settled to catch fire with possibility. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8. It’s 50% all new. PA: Okay, don’t hold us to that 50% figure exactly. I’m not sure there’s even a way to measure what percentage of it is new, but that’s the core ideal we started with. We knew we wanted big parts of the map to be marked, for all intents and purposes: “Here Be Dragons.” This goes back to the first point: If the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is a place for your characters to explore, there better be some stuff you haven’t seen before! BRC: Apparently I’m example boy on this article. Well, here’s another: Returned Abeir—an entire content flush with new wonder and conceived by Ed Greenwood’s bountiful pen, no less. Other portions of Abeir fell into Toril, too, but they are now part of Faerûn: the dragonborn land of Tymanther and the genasi-ruled badlands of Akanûl. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9. We’re not retconning. We’re assuming that everything that was, was. PA: I guess you could call this the “not throwing out the baby or the bathwater” rule. If it happened in a novel or in a game product—any part of the FORGOTTEN REALMS canon—it happened. We aren’t going to ask you to buy a copy of The Grand History of the Realms then throw it away. Every detail ever published on this massive setting is still there, is still a part of the history of this living, breathing world. We may have a hundred years’ worth of distance from it, but it happened, and all that history will continue to inform authors, game designers, players, and DMs as they continue to explore the FORGOTTEN REALMS world. BRC: You know, there might be a couple niggling little details that the 4th Edition rules insist upon that we may just ignore. For instance, I doubt you’ll see a three-novel epic on how halflings grew, on average, an extra foot. But barring strange little bits like that, if a story has been told about something to establish it in the previous setting edition, then another story describes how that feature reached its current manifestation in the 4th Edition FORGOTTEN REALMS setting—even if we haven’t yet told you that story. It’s a wide world filled new opportunity. I can’t wait for my Elfharrow elf barbarian character to go on his next adventure. When’s that going to be, Phil? PA: The week after we get back from Gen Con Indy!
#5 Belorin Aug 28, 2008 18:52:15	I found this to be totally worhless, it just basically brought all the scattered excuses for change together in one article. Bel
#6 banpai Aug 28, 2008 18:57:55	BRC: Speaking of the Spellplague, even though I was one of its original proponents, I feel like the concept got far too much promotion, both prior to the release of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide, and in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide itself. At the time where this 4th Edition of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is set, over ninety years have passed since the Spellplague. Most folks in Faerûn don’t give the Year of Blue Fire a second thought or wonder how strange it was that there used to be a goddess of magic. Yes, it was a cataclysmic event in its day, but that day is long past. Many other factors are responsible for changes to the landscape and cosmology—so many that the Spellplague is mostly a memory (except for those places where pockets yet linger). Ok let´s burn all those Rich Baker must be stopped signs now we know who is responsible ;) I get my pitchfork and you get the the firewood. :D Bruce Cordell: At first glance, the century leap forward is the most shocking part of the new FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It is a jaw-dropping change. But it wasn’t a decision made lightly. In fact, it was felt something drastic had to happen in order to breathe new life into a shared world whose well-trampled edges were quickly approaching. Many believed that if something bold wasn’t done to expand the canvas, the world would begin to die beneath its own extensive history of novels and game products. Really.... I can´t understand that one, there were continents left to explore and Ed still hasn´t done that book about Mirt. However if the designers and novel writers did believe this .... A two-fold plan emerged: A great leap into the future would allow nearly every part of Faerûn to appear fresh to everyone, both new fans and old. No one could be intimately familiar with the previous century’s happenings. Every place would have some element of novelty simply because a century can’t pass without even the most stable of kingdoms seeing some shift or alteration. But some people like to have detailed lore. Damn everyone who bought Lost empires of Faerun or GHOR bought them for the lore. It´s ok to add some change but 10 years would have been enough. PA: By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover. We’d spent the last fifteen years or so detailing just about every nook and cranny of the map, in hundreds of books, game products, short stories, comic books, Dragon articles, and Dungeon adventures. There was hardly a square centimeter on the poster map that wasn’t detailed somewhere, and frankly it was getting harder and harder to find room to tell a story. Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store. BRC: Even my own first steps in novel fiction showed me how the novels and games were having to move to obscure spots to tell new stories. Darkvision takes place largely in Durpar, a country hardly even on the map. Stardeep was hidden away in a hardly visited eladrin realm behind the Yuirwood forest in Aglarond. Other folks were finding themselves similarly squeezed to the edges—even long-time writers in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It was a trend the editors noted first. What do you do when all the ancient realms have already been explored and discovered? Aside from jumping the timeline enough to be significant and splicing lost worlds back into the core setting, one thing we could do is to change how the very rules of D&D work. That opportunity was serendipitous, and it was a fantastic chance for us to see all of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting through a completely new lens. I always thought that was the awesome thing about a shared world . PA: From the novel line point of view, the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has always succeeded because there is no core story. It isn’t a world where if you weren’t a member of, say, the Fellowship of the Ring, all you were really doing was watching the real heroes. The world has to have room for a 4th level D&D character, or the apprentice mage from the next novel, to save, if not the world, then his or her little part of it and not feel unimportant or left out. BRC: In a world where Elminster is merely the tip of an epic level legion of NPC good guys, the opportunity for less powerful PCs and less epic stories was small. Certainly, NPC good guys exist all over the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, but few of them should be as capable as the PCs. Because of the very nature of the player characters, they are special, a cut above other folks and even potentially touched by fate to one day take up an epic destiny. Well I guess too many complained about it and the desingers no longer wanted to give every high level char a reason to be busy so the Pcs have to save the day. I guess the only way to survive as an epic caster in Faerun is to turn evil. PA: I think the best example of this is one we used in various presentations in the past. Core D&D will give you the rules for a +1 longsword, but in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting that +1 longsword is the Platinum Tongue of Garthak, fashioned as the parade sword for Garthak Hammerfist, patriarch of the dwarven clan of Hammerfist, one of the ruling houses of ancient Gauntlgrym. Everything in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has a story. I completely agree with him. PA: For years we’ve been closely watching sales trends of the novels and seeing that, without exception, books that move the world forward, however incrementally, tend to outsell books that go back into the past or that have less or no effect on the greater setting. What we call “Realms-shaking events,” like Troy Denning’s Return of the Archwizards series or Mel Odom’s The Threat from the Sea series, had become the rocky center of the FORGOTTEN REALMS novel line. As we talked about resetting the FORGOTTEN REALMS world, we knew that what we were really doing was establishing a new starting point, and that the world would evolve and grow from there. BRC: The Realms-shaking events that drive sales for the novels are a dichotomy and ongoing tension in the game. From the point of view of game setting design, it’s hard to write a definitive “Guide to the FORGOTTEN REALMS” when you know that a year down the line, three different novel lines will have killed off, altered, or in some other way changed basic features described in that putative “guide.” But as Phil notes, moving forward is fun. Not moving the game world side of things forward with the novels would mean stagnation for the game setting. Everyone wants to feel they are part of the same dynamic world described in The Orc King, Shadowrealm, or Swordmage. Okay people you heard the man, everbody buy another copy of the swords of eveningstar an dragonfire. I am really surpirsed that the RSE sell so well - but I loved War of the Spiderqueen, and the Return of the Archwizards so maybe they are correct. I actually bough Swordmage as hardcover (I own very few hardcovers - I am cheap) to see what they did to the realms - don´t get me wrong I love Rich Bakers writing but the reason was the change. BRC: Phil has nicely set me up to either ignore a chance to plug myself or dive in. I’m diving in: The Abolethic Sovereignty trilogy explores how the city of Xxiphu came to be stationed over Faerûn and what its presence portends, if strict vigil over its beslimed residents is not kept. Let´s just throw it into Lorosfyr and forget about it until they return in 1000 years in the Return of the Aboleths triology. PA: We started out with the absolute conviction that the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide would render no part of the core D&D rulebooks obsolete and vice versa. Every D&D race, class, monster, and magic item has its place in the FORGOTTEN REALMS world, and we’ll give you more, like the swordmage and the genasi. No matter what, the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is a Dungoens & Dragons world. BRC: Indeed, core D&D and the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting have never been closer. A DM can pick up the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide and use one or two of its nicely contained regions in his own game if he wishes. I think a lot of D&D campaigns will find themselves with genasi PCs, swordmages, and perhaps even spellscarred PCs touched by the fire of wild magic—even those campaigns that do not take place on Toril. I would have been very happy if they had managed to retain more FR names and flavour, but I have to admit this has advantages - making FR the default would have helped much too. Here’s one example. The great and ever-increasing popularity of eastern fighting styles and eastern myths sees a similarly increased profile in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. Shou from down the Golden Way have continued to settle in Faerûn, and they have claimed a nation all their own west of the Sea of Fallen Stars that they have named Nathlan. Extraordinary feats of martial proficiency abound in these regions. When the day comes that the monk and related character classes sees the light of day in a future Player’s Handbook, you can expect Nathlan, Telflamm, portions of Westgate, and other places similarly Shou-settled to catch fire with possibility. Okay having a good source for monks and ninjas in Faerun is actually good, BRC: Apparently I’m example boy on this article. Well, here’s another: Returned Abeir—an entire content flush with new wonder and conceived by Ed Greenwood’s bountiful pen, no less. Other portions of Abeir fell into Toril, too, but they are now part of Faerûn: the dragonborn land of Tymanther and the genasi-ruled badlands of Akanûl. Trading Matztika for something else was a good tradeoff. I am not soooo happy about the nations on mainland Faerun, but if they put a race in the PHB and the realms there has to be a place where they could have come from. But barring strange little bits like that, if a story has been told about something to establish it in the previous setting edition, then another story describes how that feature reached its current manifestation in the 4th Edition FORGOTTEN REALMS setting—even if we haven’t yet told you that story. It’s a wide world filled new opportunity. I can’t wait for my Elfharrow elf barbarian character to go on his next adventure. When’s that going to be, Phil? Yep, elf barbarian thats the impression I have gotten from him, but hey I am not actually ****** at anyone about this anymore. I guess I have accepted that they made the change to save the realms, not to destroy them. My greate hope is that the can bring us the promised material through DI.
#7 thecasualoblivion Aug 28, 2008 19:01:36	Some interesting bits: Many believed that if something bold wasn’t done to expand the canvas, the world would begin to die beneath its own extensive history of novels and game products. Interesting to hear someone at WotC say this, as opposed to someone like me. It was a trend the editors noted first. What do you do when all the ancient realms have already been explored and discovered? I find it interesting that it was in the novels that the desire to reset things first occurred. a notion emerged among the readers and players that the FORGOTTEN REALMS was a world built for a small group of superheroes and a place to read about their adventures. It didn’t have room for more heroes. This is a big part of what people complained about when they said the game was dominated by NPCs. BRC: Phil has nicely set me up to either ignore a chance to plug myself or dive in. I’m diving in: The Abolethic Sovereignty trilogy explores how the city of Xxiphu came to be stationed over Faerûn and what its presence portends, if strict vigil over its beslimed residents is not kept. I'm almost tempted to read those. BRC: Apparently I’m example boy on this article. Well, here’s another: Returned Abeir—an entire content flush with new wonder and conceived by Ed Greenwood’s bountiful pen, no less. Other portions of Abeir fell into Toril, too, but they are now part of Faerûn: the dragonborn land of Tymanther and the genasi-ruled badlands of Akanûl. Abeir coming from Ed wasn't something I was personally aware of.
#8 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Aug 28, 2008 19:53:35	Reposted from Candlekeep: Many believed that if something bold wasn’t done to expand the canvas, the world would begin to die beneath its own extensive history of novels and game products. Who is "many"? That statement is rather weasel-worded, as it is so vague that the reverse could just as easily be true. Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store. BRC: Even my own first steps in novel fiction showed me how the novels and games were having to move to obscure spots to tell new stories. Darkvision takes place largely in Durpar, a country hardly even on the map. Stardeep was hidden away in a hardly visited eladrin realm behind the Yuirwood forest in Aglarond. Other folks were finding themselves similarly squeezed to the edges—even long-time writers in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. Were authors being "pushed to the edges", or did WotC just want them to explore new places in the Realms? I had thought BC wrote about the Star Elves, Imaskari, and the Great Dale area because he liked them had a hand in creating/developing them, not because he thought he couldn't tell a good story in places that were less obscure. I don't mean to come off as disrespectful, but I'm just not buying this particular description of what happened. Aside from jumping the timeline enough to be significant and splicing lost worlds back into the core setting, one thing we could do is to change how the very rules of D&D work. That opportunity was serendipitous, and it was a fantastic chance for us to see all of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting through a completely new lens. Serendipity? A fortunate discovery by accident? Sorry, but I don't see anything accidental or coincidental about all this. That's not good or bad, that's just how it is. In a world where Elminster is merely the tip of an epic level legion of NPC good guys... Quite an over-the-top description. ...the opportunity for less powerful PCs and less epic stories was small. Why? WotC chose to focus on RSEs and high level characters, didn't they? It strikes me as disingenuous to imply that they had no control over this. Speaking of the Spellplague, even though I was one of its original proponents, I feel like the concept got far too much promotion, both prior to the release of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide, and in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide itself. Didn't he have a large hand in writing that book, though?
#9 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Aug 28, 2008 19:54:51	Abeir coming from Ed wasn't something I was personally aware of. Ed Greenwood helped detail the 4E Abeir. However, that does not mean the 4E Abeir concept was his idea.
#10 thecasualoblivion Aug 28, 2008 20:13:02	Who is "many"? That statement is rather weasel-worded, as it is so vague that the reverse could just as easily be true. While a lot of people try to argue the validity of that statement, it doesn't change the fact that it gets said a lot. IMO, it gets said too often to ignore or dismiss out of hand. Serendipity? A fortunate discovery by accident? Sorry, but I don't see anything accidental or coincidental about all this. That's not good or bad, that's just how it is. What it does is imply that they were thinking of resetting the Realms independently of the launch of 4E. A new edition of the rules just made it the perfect oportunity for the reset. Quite an over-the-top description. Taken out of context yes. I posted a different part of that paragraph that is far more illuminating: a notion emerged among the readers and players that the FORGOTTEN REALMS was a world built for a small group of superheroes and a place to read about their adventures. It didn’t have room for more heroes. That is the context for the comment on Elminster. It sums up the NPCs dominating the Realms complaint better than anything else I've heard.
#11 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Aug 28, 2008 20:18:22	While a lot of people try to argue the validity of that statement, it doesn't change the fact that it gets said a lot. IMO, it gets said too often to ignore or dismiss out of hand. So now you're adding more vaguely worded statements to the discussion? What it does is imply that they were thinking of resetting the Realms independently of the launch of 4E. A new edition of the rules just made it the perfect oportunity for the reset. People inside the industry and out of it know that new editions of the game are bound to come along eventually (you weren't surprised that there was a 4th edition, were you?), so the use of the word "serendipitous" didn't seem right to me. Taken out of context yes. I posted a different part of that paragraph that is far more illuminating: That is the context for the comment on Elminster. It sums up the NPCs dominating the Realms complaint better than anything else I've heard. What I quoted was not taken out of context (it was clearly stated as though it was an incontrovertible fact), and the description of characters as "superheroes" is just yet another over-the-top statement. "More illuminating" my left foot.
#12 merrikcale Aug 28, 2008 20:21:36	Some interesting bits: I find it interesting that it was in the novels that the desire to reset things first occurred. Thats because the people now writing a lot of the novels couldn't handle the lore or the criticism when they failed to potray it accurately. Rich got a lot of heat for the Last Mythal and Bruce Cordell the same with Stardeep This is a big part of what people complained about when they said the game was dominated by NPCs. Thats a sign of a problem with the DM not the world. The Beauty of the Realms was the details which Mr. Cordell in his wisdom puts down and took part in destroying. I am unaware of any rule ina any Realms sourcebook or supplement that required Elminster to save the PCs or have anything to do with the PCs. If you or Mr. Cordell could point me to that rule, it would be appreciated I'm almost tempted to read those. Don't be Abeir coming from Ed wasn't something I was personally aware of. Returned Abeir was one of the few good parts of the Book
#13 merrikcale Aug 28, 2008 20:26:59	Were authors being "pushed to the edges", or did WotC just want them to explore new places in the Realms? I had thought BC wrote about the Star Elves, Imaskari, and the Great Dale area because he liked them had a hand in creating/developing them, not because he thought he couldn't tell a good story in places that were less obscure. I don't mean to come off as disrespectful, but I'm just not buying this particular description of what happened. Neither am I. He got panned by many for errors in lore in Darkvision and especially Stardeep so instead of trying to get better at it, he destroyed the lore. It was easier that way
#14 thecasualoblivion Aug 28, 2008 20:29:39	So now you're adding more vaguely worded statements to the discussion? What we both were referring to was the statement: Many believed that if something bold wasn’t done to expand the canvas, the world would begin to die beneath its own extensive history of novels and game products. For all the claims that this statement has been thoroughly disproven, it sure gets said a lot. Even by the developers. What I quoted was not taken out of context (it was clearly stated as though it was an incontrovertible fact), and the description of characters as "superheroes" is just yet another over-the-top statement. "More illuminating" my left foot. This is semantics. They're just restating a popular opinion held by critics of Forgotten Realms. This criticism they deem important enough to both mention and address.
#15 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Aug 28, 2008 20:31:35	For all the claims that this statement has been thoroughly disproven, it sure gets said a lot. Even by the developers. People often say and believe things that aren't true, so arguments from popularity (that is, "a lot of people believe in this, so there must be truth to it"), like the one you are using now, don't hold water with me. This is semantics. They're just restating a popular opinion held by critics of Forgotten Realms. This criticism they deem important enough to both mention and address. Semantics? Hey, I responded to a criticism of my post that you brought up. In any case I don't think I want to discuss this with you anymore.
#16 merrikcale Aug 28, 2008 20:35:37	For all the claims that this statement has been thoroughly disproven, it sure gets said a lot. Even by the developers. These are the developers who get panned for the attempts at lore like Mr. Baker and Mr. Cordell. The developers who seem to get "it", such as Brian James, Steve Schends and others have never to my knowledge, uttered that. The only ones I have ever heard say that were among those who took a wrecking ball to the place
#17 thecasualoblivion Aug 28, 2008 20:36:30	What I quoted was not taken out of context (it was clearly stated as though it was an incontrovertible fact), and the description of characters as "superheroes" is just yet another [i]over-the-top statement[/i]. "More illuminating" my left foot. This is why I say semantics. You aren't offering a different opinion. You are just taking issue with the words used. Saying that a qualitative statement is invalid just because it doesn't explicitly state that it isn't a hard fact is arguing semantics. You're twisting words instead of making a real argument.
#18 thecasualoblivion Aug 28, 2008 20:38:41	These are the developers who get panned for the attempts at lore like Mr. Baker and Mr. Cordell. The developers who seem to get "it", such as Brian James, Steve Schends and others have never to my knowledge, uttered that. The only ones I have ever heard say that were among those who took a wrecking ball to the place FR Novels aren't really Shakespeare. You guys sound like Trekkies sometimes.
#19 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Aug 28, 2008 20:39:07	This is why I say semantics. You aren't offering a different opinion. You are just taking issue with the words used. Saying that a qualitative statement is invalid just because it doesn't explicitly state that it isn't a hard fact is arguing semantics. You're twisting words instead of making a real argument. Like I said, I don't want to discuss this with you anymore. You don't seem to understand the points about critical thinking that I brought up, and it seems like just trying to bait me into an argument. I'm not interested.
#20 merrikcale Aug 28, 2008 20:42:43	FR Novels aren't really Shakespeare. Actually, I didn't mind the Last mythal series. I like Rich as an author but the fact remains is he and Bruce Cordell got a lot of grief for those books You guys sound like Trekkies sometimes. Is that supposed to be an insult? I thought there were no personal attacks on these forums. besides Star Wars is much much better
#21 merrikcale Aug 28, 2008 20:47:59	Of course, that was the best part of a shared world. Clearly these guys don't get it and its unfortunate. The real problem was they wanted to write books and not have to do research in previous lore. Now they don't have to. If that wasn't it, they could have just as easily brought in Returned Abeir and jump a few years and they would have accomplished everything they wanted to including having a setting where DMs don't need volumes of lore
#22 Iluvrien Aug 28, 2008 20:58:47	Wow. Just plain wow. Pretty much everything that I loved the Realms for... has just been cited as a problem by those two gentlemen in that article. I loved the continuous nature of the narrative. I loved the layering of new stories on old. I loved the fact that not only the PCs were allowed to be "special". I loved the fact that there was never an end to my reading of it, and thus my adventures in it. I loved the way it felt more like a world than a game. I loved.... ...ahh, what's the point? This article made me sad. Thanks guys.
#23 krownhunter07 Aug 28, 2008 21:03:11	besides Star Wars is much much better See here, I agree with this. As to the rest, WotC is into pleasing their consumers by selling products they want to buy. If x amount of potential buyers are not interested in a product, but z are, they work to get the most people happy. Very simple, sad... maybe a little, but what do you really expect?
#24 Iluvrien Aug 28, 2008 21:06:37	Very simple, sad... maybe a little, but what do you really expect? Ooh, a rhetorical question. Well. I will answer it anyway: What do I expect? From a company? An american company? I expect exactly what I got. Hope? Now that is a different matter.
#25 drowvampyre Aug 28, 2008 21:11:47	Wow. Just plain wow. Pretty much everything that I loved the Realms for... has just been cited as a problem by those two gentlemen in that article. I loved the continuous nature of the narrative. I loved the layering of new stories on old. I loved the fact that not only the PCs were allowed to be "special". I loved the fact that there was never an end to my reading of it, and thus my adventures in it. I loved the way it felt more like a world than a game. I loved.... ...ahh, what's the point? This article made me sad. Thanks guys. Likewise. I wonder, also, how DMs are supposed to explain to curious players why the Shadovar haven't gone on a conquering spree while they were busy dealing with Thay, since there's really no one to oppose them except the plucky band of heroes. How is that supposed to be explained without creating more high-level NPCs to directly oppose the Princes and their ilk? So instead of being able to say "well, Mystra's Chosen oppose them directly, while the armies of wherever they're trying to conquer take on their rank and file troops" the DMs get to take the time out to come up with entirely new NPCs to fill the exact same roles. Wow, doesn't that make a change for the better! *sarcastic golfclap*
#26 merrikcale Aug 28, 2008 21:26:07	Wow. Just plain wow. Pretty much everything that I loved the Realms for... has just been cited as a problem by those two gentlemen in that article. I loved the continuous nature of the narrative. I loved the layering of new stories on old. I loved the fact that not only the PCs were allowed to be "special". I loved the fact that there was never an end to my reading of it, and thus my adventures in it. I loved the way it felt more like a world than a game. I loved.... ...ahh, what's the point? This article made me sad. Thanks guys. Apparently, Bruce Cordell and Philip Athans do not know what a shared setting is or what made the Realms far better than any other game setting
#27 merrikcale Aug 28, 2008 21:27:25	See here, I agree with this. As to the rest, WotC is into pleasing their consumers by selling products they want to buy. If x amount of potential buyers are not interested in a product, but z are, they work to get the most people happy. Very simple, sad... maybe a little, but what do you really expect? If the Realms weren't selling well, then why did they consistenly have higher sales figures than Eberron. maybe that setting was the problem. Blow that up.
#28 Dark_Wizard_02 Aug 28, 2008 21:29:39	Rich has said he doesn't feel everything said by WotC about the old Realms is absolutely how the old Realms were (often how they are perceived perhaps). He also noted the designers argued and fought in their design meetings for different pieces of the Realms, either to change or to keep. The 4E Realms changed via committee. If you actually got each designer alone and off the record, they would each have a slightly different take on exactly how irreparable and hopelessly useless the old Realms were. Don't take the official company face as how things must be. The designers agreed before hand how they were going to present the contrast between the old and new Realms. Personally I feel what they said greatly harmed the reputation and perception of not only the old Realms but that damage will leak into the new Realms by association. This being the digital age, the designers' statements will be easily copied and pasted indefinitely. No doubt, those that still do hate the Realms (and always have) will take these statements out of context one day and apply them to the 4E Realms. It has become that much harder for the 4E Realms, if they even hint at something similar to one of the perceived problems of the old Realms, both detractors and disenfranchised old fans will jump on it. This time with support from openly stated designer thoughts to highlight the problem.
#29 lord_karsus Aug 28, 2008 21:30:48	-I am having this thread merged with the other one on the same exact topic.
#30 krownhunter07 Aug 28, 2008 21:31:38	If the Realms weren't selling well, then why did they consistenly have higher sales figures than Eberron. maybe that setting was the problem. Blow that up. Ehh, I don't play or buy Eberron...
#31 merrikcale Aug 28, 2008 21:38:12	Ehh, I don't play or buy Eberron... See. Blow it up. Actually, I have read some Eberron books and the setting certainly has it plusses. One of which i thought was its lack of real lore. The problems the designers say the Realms had I thought were to be fixed by giving DMs an alternative, Eberron.
#32 merrikcale Aug 28, 2008 21:39:38	Have I ever mentioned that you are an excellent Forum Lead?
#33 krownhunter07 Aug 28, 2008 21:40:14	Well I played in a game once... and, lets just say, I didn't care for any of it. Never looked back. I might get the new books... maybe.
#34 thecasualoblivion Aug 28, 2008 21:44:10	I don't really care for the steampunk, magic is everyday style of Eberron. That being said, I have tremendous respect for the setting because of how well it works. Prior to the 4E Forgotten Realms, if I was forced or inclined to use a published setting instead of my own creation, I would have chosen Eberron. Not because I like it, but because the setting works.
#35 merrikcale Aug 28, 2008 21:45:30	I might get the new books... maybe. Some of them are good, some not so much. Some of the ideas in the setting I like. The Silver Flame and the set up of the deities is interesting. The Blood of Vol is cool. The elf religious beliefs are a neat change. I like shifters and warforged as concepts but I want to see them remain as distinctly Eberron. Its where they fit. i don't want to see them force shifters into the Realms myself
#36 lord_karsus Aug 28, 2008 21:46:37	-You've called me plenty of other things, but not that one, no. ;) -Thank you.
#37 merrikcale Aug 28, 2008 21:47:39	-You've called me plenty of other things, but not that one, no. ;) -Thank you. Don't read the Community Business Board much huh?
#38 thecasualoblivion Aug 28, 2008 21:51:19	I like shifters and warforged as concepts but I want to see them remain as distinctly Eberron. Its where they fit. i don't want to see them force shifters into the Realms myself This is off topic, but worth responding to. I don't know about Warforged, but reading between the lines in the FRCG they seem to be setting the table for Shifters. Every time they talked about lycanthropes having a presence in a given area of the Realms, there seemed to a subtle undertone of "here be Shifters". Somebody else made a comment about Warforged being possible in some of the higher magic cultures who build magical things. That's probably something better left to the decisions of individual DMs and campaigns.
#39 merrikcale Aug 28, 2008 21:55:14	This is off topic, but worth responding to. I don't know about Warforged, but reading between the lines in the FRCG they seem to be setting the table for Shifters. Every time they talked about lycanthropes having a presence in a given area of the Realms, there seemed to a subtle undertone of "here be Shifters". You are unfortunately, right, especially since shifters will be in the second Players Handbook as opposed to the Eberron books. I like shifters. But I like settings having their own unique things such as the shifter and warforged. Which is why I totally agree with you here That's probably something better left to the decisions of individual DMs and campaigns.
#40 lord_karsus Aug 28, 2008 23:32:26	-Read the article...I was expecting something new. This is all stuff that we know, rehashed but in a much more personable level. All that big fuss and hoopla for nothing, really. -Rather than list and pick-apart all of the things I disagree with, or don't like, I'll just share this single line that I find the most chilling: "Indeed, core D&D and the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting have never been closer."
#41 thecasualoblivion Aug 28, 2008 23:38:00	-Read the article...I was expecting something new. This is all stuff that we know, rehashed but in a much more personable level. All that big fuss and hoopla for nothing, really. -Rather than list and pick-apart all of the things I disagree with, or don't like, I'll just share this single line that I find the most chilling: "Indeed, core D&D and the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting have never been closer." I'm not sure thats entirely true. I was first introduced to the Realms as a player back during my 2E days, and core D&D and the Forgotten Realms were pretty close from what I remember. Separation between core D&D and the Realms is largely a 3E construct.
#42 Mr_Miscellany Aug 29, 2008 0:41:36	Aside from the points made about needing 'space' to write new novels in, how did they gather data about the views gamers had about the Realms? That is, I can see that they talked amongst themselves and established that they were running out of room to write novels in....but what about people's campaigns? Did most gamers feel like they were playing in the 'same old Realms?' I want to know more about how they gathered their information.
#43 kave99 Aug 29, 2008 1:07:39	well now the realms are all about the books {novels} not the game world. why is it every time they tell us more {or again} it just gets worse.
#44 conanb Aug 29, 2008 2:07:23	I'm sorry but everything about 3.5 was bloated. In fact it was the central theme of 3.5 and forgotten realms under 3.5, bloat bloat bloat. So many splat books it was impossible to keep on everything. So many novels and guides that the Forgotten Realms also got hard to keep up with and follow. Heck there were 19 WOTC books released to add detail to the realms during 3.5, not counting the novels to read and keep up with. I totally relate to the need for a reboot because I felt very overwhelmed by the whole thing, and so did most of my friends and gaming group.
#45 valgard Aug 29, 2008 3:34:33	conanb, do you really think that because the 100 year jump and the new edition you will not have to follow novels and books? Well, books probably not, but will be even worse. There will be no books, but you'll have to pay for the D&DI suscribtion to read Dragon magazine articles about Realmslore... and all the other crap they will release with it.
#46 banpai Aug 29, 2008 6:00:54	I'm sorry but everything about 3.5 was bloated. In fact it was the central theme of 3.5 and forgotten realms under 3.5, bloat bloat bloat. So many splat books it was impossible to keep on everything. So many novels and guides that the Forgotten Realms also got hard to keep up with and follow. Heck there were 19 WOTC books released to add detail to the realms during 3.5, not counting the novels to read and keep up with. I totally relate to the need for a reboot because I felt very overwhelmed by the whole thing, and so did most of my friends and gaming group. Yes the number of regional books was great, but actually you didn´t have to read them, the provided details to certan areas and if you don´t run a game there ..... But well the reboot is done and now the DMs are just as clueless as everyone else now forcing DMs to make up stuff - something they didn´t dare with all the lore to contradict them. ....Maybe they should start selling balls with the Forgotten Realms books, or just expand the sidebars that explain the important stuff.
#47 krownhunter07 Aug 29, 2008 9:54:09	well now the realms are all about the books {novels} not the game world. why is it every time they tell us more {or again} it just gets worse. ...Seeing as this has never been, nor ever will be, the case, why put it out there? FR is a world for telling stories. Yours, mine and the authors...
#48 lord_karsus Aug 29, 2008 10:20:17	-Being as I said I am going to have this thread merged with the already existing one, please leave all comments on the issue THERE, to avoid the disjointed feel when the two get merged.
#49 lord_karsus Aug 30, 2008 13:07:08	I'm not sure thats entirely true. I was first introduced to the Realms as a player back during my 2E days, and core D&D and the Forgotten Realms were pretty close from what I remember. Separation between core D&D and the Realms is largely a 3E construct. -Those are their words, not mine. They're the "man with the plan".
#50 bonzai Aug 30, 2008 13:55:10	I'm sorry but everything about 3.5 was bloated. In fact it was the central theme of 3.5 and forgotten realms under 3.5, bloat bloat bloat. So many splat books it was impossible to keep on everything. So many novels and guides that the Forgotten Realms also got hard to keep up with and follow. Heck there were 19 WOTC books released to add detail to the realms during 3.5, not counting the novels to read and keep up with. I totally relate to the need for a reboot because I felt very overwhelmed by the whole thing, and so did most of my friends and gaming group. First off, it was not by any means "impossible". With the FRCS, the PGtF, and these boards, it wasn't that hard at all to keep up with the changes. And lets look at the products shall we? The only ones that should have been required are; FRCS (which actually was 3.0), and the PGtF. What is left are; Adventures Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave, Shadowdale: Scouring of the land, Anauroch: The Empire of Shade, The Twilight Tomb, Expidition to Undermountain, Mysteries of the Moonseas, and Son's of Grumush. Thats seven products, and the pertanent lore to be taken from them amounts to; Halasters dead, and the Zhents have taken over Shadowdale. That really is about it. So if you were worrying about must have lore, put your fears to rest. Necessary? Nope, entirely skippable. Regional Source Books City of Splenders: Waterdeep and Shining South. It's a shame that they stopped doing these. However some of the better ones were in 3.0. Much of the material in these can be found in other sources. If you wanted specific info on a town, these boards are often very helpfull. Necassary? Nope, but but can be usefull to have most of the details for a specific region being cobeled together into one source. Fluff Books Underdark, Serpent Kingdoms, Lost Empires of the Realms, Champions of Ruin, Champions of Valor, Power of Faerun, Dragons of Faerun, Grand History of the realms. Some of these books really are great. However, they are by no means necassary. Take Serpent Kingdoms. Great book that details various serpent races, and gives a lot of history as they pertain to the realms. However, with the exception of the Sarruhk, a DM can get along just fine with what can be found in the MM. Same thing goes for Underdark and Dragons of Faerun. Grand History of the Realms is truly a great source, detailing most of the significant events in the realms. However most of the material was collected from older sources. So it's handy, but entirely skip able. Same goes for the rest of the books. So, after reviewing all the 3.5 products, what does a concientious DM absolutely have to have to run a well informed campaign? The FRCS, the PGtF, and internet access to post specific questions on these boards. That is really all you need. The rest of the books do have some nice fluff and crunch, but it's entirely optional.
#51 bonzai Aug 30, 2008 13:58:37	I also think that the Novelists having no where to set a story is completely ludicris. It's actually easier to tell a story in a well developed setting like Waterdeep, as much of the work has already been done. A compelling story doesn't need to blow up the city, or change in drasticly. To me that is just a cop out.
#52 lord_karsus Aug 30, 2008 15:33:14	The only ones that should have been required are; FRCS (which actually was 3.0), and the PGtF. -Personally speaking, using both 3e and 3.5e books interchangeably, PGtF isn't even 100% necessary.
#53 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Aug 31, 2008 16:20:22	I also think that the Novelists having no where to set a story is completely ludicris. It's actually easier to tell a story in a well developed setting like Waterdeep, as much of the work has already been done. A compelling story doesn't need to blow up the city, or change in drasticly. To me that is just a cop out. That particular comment has moved me to decide that I will never buy novels from either Phil Athans or Bruce Cordell ever again. Not a big loss, though--I never thought PA was an especially talented writer, and I'm not the least bit interested in BC's upcoming "Abolethic Sovereignty" books.
#54 lord_karsus Aug 31, 2008 16:22:22	Not a big loss, though--I never thought PA was an especially talented writer, and I'm not the least bit interested in BC's upcoming "Abolethic Sovereignty" books. -But...But...Xxipthu! Xxipthu!!
#55 krownhunter07 Aug 31, 2008 16:26:09	Seeing the comments a lot of writers get about 'not taking the time to learn the lore' and similar remarks, I can see why they wanted a fresh slate. They are human and prone, just like the rest of us, to making mistakes. Getting bashed on their stories for not remembering one thing or another is a drag... Not saying it's right or anything, just that I understand their point of view.
#56 lord_karsus Aug 31, 2008 16:30:42	-If you were an anthropologist who was tasked with writing an essay on a certain aspect of Ancient China for National Geographic, would you not do research into the subject, and be entirely sure of your facts, before sending your article to the magazine to be published? Personally speaking, this is an issue of pride, and such sentiments as expressed certainly surprise me.
#57 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Aug 31, 2008 16:35:12	Seeing the comments a lot of writers get about 'not taking the time to learn the lore' and similar remarks, I can see why they wanted a fresh slate. Did you notice that wasn't the comment that bothered me? Anyway, one of the writers (Richard Lee Byers) has written at least two posts on Candlekeep.com insisting that whatever the reasons for these changes, they probably weren't done to make life easier for authors.
#58 krownhunter07 Aug 31, 2008 16:38:02	Right. I'm not saying I agree with it, just saying I understand it. Also, writing fiction and doing scientific research are warranted a big difference here, I think. It isn't solely on the writers here, they have to get it approved, edited and the like from WotC. That said, I also see your point and agree it is a matter of pride and dedication to your line of work.
#59 krownhunter07 Aug 31, 2008 16:41:44	Did you notice that wasn't the comment that bothered me? I wasn't calling you out... I would have quoted you if I was. Just putting my 2 cents in on the topic in general. Anyway, one of the writers (Richard Lee Byers) has written at least two posts on Candlekeep.com insisted that whatever the reasons for these changes, they probably weren't done to make life easier for authors. This is odd, as it was stated as one of the reasons they wanted the changes.
#60 naex Aug 31, 2008 16:47:15	This is odd, as it was stated as one of the reasons they wanted the changes. Not really strange if you consider there are two different groups of authors. The designers who also write books (Richard Baker, Bruce Cordell, etc), and the authors who are just novel authors. The first group are the ones who probably pushed for the changes, while the second group was content to write, and now find themselves having to learn all new lore in order to write their stories, and all their storylines have to be adjusted.
#61 krownhunter07 Aug 31, 2008 16:51:19	Makes sense.
#62 Therise Aug 31, 2008 16:51:42	(...) novels from either Phil Athans... Annihilation wasn't too bad, but his earlier adaptations of the BG game into novels were pretty bad. I just couldn't get into his Watercourse Trilogy (which is sad, because I generally liked all things Thayan). Realms of the Elves, which he edited, had quite a few stories that didn't seem to fit the Realms. At least to me, anyway, Athans is really hit or miss. (...) Bruce Cordell's upcoming "Abolethic Sovereignty" books. Agreed, none of Cordell's novels ever interested me either.
#63 lord_karsus Aug 31, 2008 16:59:15	Also, writing fiction and doing scientific research are warranted a big difference here, I think. -Not particularly, when you think about the similarities: It's a world/culture/place/people that exists separately from the world/culture/place/people that the information-gatherer is not part of. The only difference, in reality, is that in the case of, say, history, it actually, physically happened, whereas, in the case of this setting, it's a fantasy world. Note, however, that in actuality, this doesn't really have any sort of impact on anything. Scientific methods of obtaining information (research, hypothesis, and all of that) still apply.
#64 Iluvrien Aug 31, 2008 17:44:30	-Not particularly, when you think about the similarities: It's a world/culture/place/people that exists separately from the world/culture/place/people that the information-gatherer is not part of. The only difference, in reality, is that in the case of, say, history, it actually, physically happened, whereas, in the case of this setting, it's a fantasy world. Note, however, that in actuality, this doesn't really have any sort of impact on anything. Scientific methods of obtaining information (research, hypothesis, and all of that) still apply. I can only speak to the nature of scientific research... but from my own experience LK explains it well enough even for my exacting tastes ;). I can't however, speak to historical/literary research except that I have been a scientific consultant to a couple of authors wanting their sci-fi to not be too fi :D . The two do seem to be similar though.
#65 Alter_Boy Aug 31, 2008 19:18:57	-Not particularly, when you think about the similarities: It's a world/culture/place/people that exists separately from the world/culture/place/people that the information-gatherer is not part of. The only difference, in reality, is that in the case of, say, history, it actually, physically happened, whereas, in the case of this setting, it's a fantasy world. Note, however, that in actuality, this doesn't really have any sort of impact on anything. Scientific methods of obtaining information (research, hypothesis, and all of that) still apply. Maybe Bruce Cordell and Phil Athans believe that a novel is primarily a source of entertainment and secondarily a reference for the world (real or fictional) it takes place in. It sounds crazy, but it could be true.
#66 Iluvrien Aug 31, 2008 19:41:31	Maybe Bruce Cordell and Phil Athans believe that a novel is primarily a source of entertainment and secondarily a reference for the world (real or fictional) it takes place in. It sounds crazy, but it could be true. That seems to be a false dichotomy. I wouldn't say it is an "either/or" situation. Especially for a novel line attached canonically to a game setting. These novels literally change the world. As such, entertainment and setting accuracy are of primary importance. Write in your own world? Make up any damn thing you want to. Write in a shared world that your writing actually affects? Check your facts.
#67 Alter_Boy Aug 31, 2008 20:26:18	I never said it was either/or. I said it was primarily entertainment and secondarily a reason to get your trousers twisted.
#68 banpai Aug 31, 2008 20:26:32	That seems to be a false dichotomy. I wouldn't say it is an "either/or" situation. Especially for a novel line attached canonically to a game setting. These novels literally change the world. As such, entertainment and setting accuracy are of primary importance. Write in your own world? Make up any damn thing you want to. Write in a shared world that your writing actually affects? Check your facts. Yup. Of all the realms books I really liked the Last Mythal Triology is my current favourite, but I looks like Rich did his research on it.
#69 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Aug 31, 2008 20:28:57	Maybe Bruce Cordell and Phil Athans believe that a novel is primarily a source of entertainment and secondarily a reference for the world (real or fictional) it takes place in. It sounds crazy, but it could be true. Well, for my part, I no longer find their novel work to be entertaining*, so I won't be buying their books anymore. *In some cases, I didn't even think their work was that great before.
#70 krownhunter07 Aug 31, 2008 20:30:38	Well, for my part, I no longer find their novel work to be entertaining, so I won't be buying their books anymore. ...You didn't like Swordmage?
#71 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Aug 31, 2008 20:31:36	...You didn't like Swordmage? Haven't read Swordmage yet, but that's by Rich Baker. I haven't said I wouldn't read his novels anymore.
#72 krownhunter07 Aug 31, 2008 20:34:27	Haven't read Swordmage yet, but that's by Rich Baker. I haven't said I wouldn't read his novels anymore. Ahh, well in this case, nevermind... nothing to see...
#73 merrikcale Aug 31, 2008 20:36:20	Aside from the points made about needing 'space' to write new novels in, how did they gather data about the views gamers had about the Realms? Simple. They made it up. That is, I can see that they talked amongst themselves and established that they were running out of room to write novels in....but what about people's campaigns? The conversation I'm sure was "How do we stop getting bashed over the head with all this lore?" "Hey I know, we have this plague, we then jump ahead a whole century then......."
#74 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Aug 31, 2008 20:38:57	Simple. They made it up. Seriously, I doubt WotC is going to share with us exactly how they came by their information, even though it would be nice if they did.
#75 merrikcale Aug 31, 2008 20:39:41	Seeing the comments a lot of writers get about 'not taking the time to learn the lore' and similar remarks, I can see why they wanted a fresh slate. And now you know the true reason to blow up the Realms. Lazy authors
#76 Therise Aug 31, 2008 20:40:35	Seriously, I doubt WotC is going to share with us exactly how they came by their information, even though it would be nice if they did. My guess: the Magic 8-Ball.
#77 krownhunter07 Aug 31, 2008 20:41:08	Ehhh, I don't presume to know their true intent behind things...
#78 merrikcale Aug 31, 2008 20:41:35	Yup. Of all the realms books I really liked the Last Mythal Triology is my current favourite, but I looks like Rich did his research on it. I liked Last Mythal as well, but Rich baker did take a beating for some say we shall "canon fudging". But I never criticized the books, I thought they told a decent tale myself. Bruce Cordell, however, ............
#79 krownhunter07 Aug 31, 2008 20:42:45	I liked Last Mythal as well, but Rich baker did take a beating for some say we shall "canon fudging". But I never criticized the books, I thought they told a decent tale myself. Bruce Cordell, however, ............ What was wrong with the LM books?
#80 merrikcale Aug 31, 2008 20:43:59	Ehhh, I don't presume to know their true intent behind things... When you add 2 and 2, what do you get? Name some of the authors who got bashed for being lazy when it came to researching lore before their books. Rich Baker in the last mythal, Bruce Cordell on Star Deep and Darkvision, Philip Athans in the Watercourse Trilogy. And lo and behold, whose names are on the cover of the FR Campaign Book and that interview Coincidence. I think not.
#81 merrikcale Aug 31, 2008 20:45:19	What was wrong with the LM books? I liked them. But they got a lot of criticism on lore stuff. But I wasn't one of them
#82 krownhunter07 Aug 31, 2008 20:45:35	When you add 2 and 2, what do you get? Name some of the authors who got bashed for being lazy when it came to researching lore before their books. Rich Baker in the last mythal, Bruce Cordell on Star Deep and Darkvision, Philip Athans in the Watercourse Trilogy. And lo and behold, whose names are on the cover of the FR Campaign Book and that interview Coincidence. I think not. It could be true, but even so, it isn't the only reason the changes were made.
#83 naex Aug 31, 2008 20:46:38	When you add 2 and 2, what do you get? The Ministry of Truth told me 5.
#84 krownhunter07 Aug 31, 2008 20:46:41	I liked them. But they got a lot of criticism on lore stuff. But I wasn't one of them You don't know what, exactly, was off in the books? *is just wondering*
#85 naex Aug 31, 2008 20:52:41	You don't know what, exactly, was off in the books? *is just wondering* The biggest departure from lore and cannon, was having the High Mage have to join with an outsider to use a high magic ritual. It was through their link to the Seldarine and their unique ties to the Weave that Elves used high magic, no outsider interference needed.
#86 krownhunter07 Aug 31, 2008 20:54:05	So it was more of a add-on then a retcon...
#87 merrikcale Aug 31, 2008 21:03:26	I know the mythal center stone was problematic and Rich Baker apparently forgot where the Tree of Souls was planted I think there were other things that I just can't recall now
#88 krownhunter07 Aug 31, 2008 21:05:45	I see... well I like the Tree where it is now.
#89 Therise Aug 31, 2008 21:16:38	Actually, I think the Tree was made irrelevant in 4E.
#90 Mr_Miscellany Aug 31, 2008 21:36:51	Simple. They made it up. / The conversation I'm sure was "How do we stop getting bashed over the head with all this lore?" "Hey I know, we have this plague, we then jump ahead a whole century then......." C'mon. That's weak ad hominem buddy.
#91 Dark_Wizard_02 Aug 31, 2008 21:37:48	I'm a fan of variety. The old lore on the Tree of Souls seems like it would have given miles upon miles of frozen wastes an interesting starting area, a focusing area that players could relate to. It could have provided an intriguing jumping point with tons of traction for an entire campaign area previously unmentioned. I also liked Myth Drannor as an inhospitably threatening area. I came to FR very late in 2e, very early in 3e. I never got a chance to run through the Myth Drannor of old. Now with all the focus on it being reclaimed, it is unlikely I will find a group that embraces the old menacing flavor. I might, but it's getting harder as the idea of Myth Drannor the elven nation overrides the Myth Drannor the giant adventuring and dungeon area.
#92 lord_karsus Aug 31, 2008 21:45:24	Maybe Bruce Cordell and Phil Athans believe that a novel is primarily a source of entertainment and secondarily a reference for the world (real or fictional) it takes place in. It sounds crazy, but it could be true. -Which doesn't change anything that I said, that you were referencing. It is what it is.
#93 merrikcale Aug 31, 2008 22:31:36	C'mon. That's weak ad hominem buddy. Actually, if you read Bruce Cordell's comments he so much as admits it.
#94 Mr_Miscellany Sep 01, 2008 2:32:13	Actually, if you read Bruce Cordell's comments he so much as admits it. "So much" nothing. This isn't the kind of ad hominem based negativity we need here.
#95 merrikcale Sep 01, 2008 7:49:36	"So much" nothing. This isn't the kind of ad hominem based negativity we need here. I am not sure what you mean. he says that was a reason for blowing up the Realms. He says it right there and what kind of ad himinem would you like?
#96 bonzai Sep 01, 2008 12:27:54	The biggest departure from lore and cannon, was having the High Mage have to join with an outsider to use a high magic ritual. It was through their link to the Seldarine and their unique ties to the Weave that Elves used high magic, no outsider interference needed. See, I disagree. He didn't have to join with an outsider to cast high magic. However the usual way requires a large circle of Elven high mages. Show Evermeet's high mages had been depleted at that point due to the Demonfey's attacks. He was also sort of an outcast among the high mages due to his Kira, and defying their orders. So getting the rest of the high mages to cooperate with him would have been an epic task in and of it's self, and probably would have forced concessions that he would have rather not have made. Joining with an outsider allowed him to circumvent the need for a circle, and perform high magic by himself.
#97 naex Sep 01, 2008 14:43:32	See, I disagree. He didn't have to join with an outsider to cast high magic. However the usual way requires a large circle of Elven high mages. Show Evermeet's high mages had been depleted at that point due to the Demonfey's attacks. He was also sort of an outcast among the high mages due to his Kira, and defying their orders. So getting the rest of the high mages to cooperate with him would have been an epic task in and of it's self, and probably would have forced concessions that he would have rather not have made. Joining with an outsider allowed him to circumvent the need for a circle, and perform high magic by himself.
#98 Mr_Miscellany Sep 01, 2008 14:54:43	he says that was a reason for blowing up the Realms. He says it right there You claimed they weren't able to handle the lore. Therefore you are making an argument against them. Cordell didn't say they couldn't handle the lore. He said: "Even my own first steps in novel fiction showed me how the novels and games were having to move to obscure spots to tell new stories. Darkvision takes place largely in Durpar, a country hardly even on the map. Stardeep was hidden away in a hardly visited eladrin realm behind the Yuirwood forest in Aglarond. Other folks were finding themselves similarly squeezed to the edges—even long-time writers in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It was a trend the editors noted first. What do you do when all the ancient realms have already been explored and discovered?" Thus your argument is an ad hominem argument. Please stop characterizing the designers in a negative manner. We do not need that kind of negative contribution to the FR Forums.
#99 Boulis Sep 01, 2008 16:17:56	Re: Mr._Miscellany To be accurate, MerrikCale did not state they were not able "to handle the lore." In the statement you quoted he/she said that the developers were interested in not "getting bashed over the head" with the lore. Taken in context, "bashed over the head with the lore" is far less critical of the developers than "can't handle the lore" is. If you are going to read his/her statement as a negative interpretation of what the developers were trying to say, I would assume you would at least try to avoid the same error (of inserting extra negativity into what seems a harmless assertion) yourself. In the event what Cordell did say was: "Many believed that if something bold wasn’t done to expand the canvas, the world would begin to die beneath its own extensive history of novels and game products." So...how does a fictional world begin to die? What exactly does he mean aside from the obvious insinuation that there was so much lore it was strangling the creativity of would-be authors?
#100 naex Sep 01, 2008 16:38:07	It might be that the authors got tired of the critisisms from the "fans" of the setting every time they didn't get some bit of lore right, or strayed from cannon, and they felt it inhibited their style. If every review you see is less about the style or story and more about your story getting the facts wrong, wouldn't you want to shift the venue of your stories, and give yourself a level playing field (the readers Know no more, or less than the writers) so that your stories are judged on merit and not on whether they got all the names and descriptions of a npc or nation "right".
#101 lord_karsus Sep 01, 2008 16:51:06	-Which goes back to what I said HERE. Honestly, if that's an aspect of writing that you (whoever the writer is) doesn't like, or doesn't feel that he/she can deal with, perhaps he/she shouldn't be participating in building a shared-world setting.
#102 the_orconian Sep 01, 2008 16:57:57	I don't know why so many people are getting upset with the new Realms. People seem to be taking it personally. 4th edition has gotten me back to D&D after a few years away from the game, but after taking a look at all the changes they made to the Forgotten Realms, I don't like what they've done at all. So I'll just use all my old stuff. If anything, they are saving us money. Except for ruinig our fun, the only people in any sort of real jeopardy are the folks who created this rubbish. They ruined a game setting - big deal - there are plenty of other good ones out there to choose from. Or you could just keep using all your old stuff - its not like its going anywhere.
#103 naex Sep 01, 2008 17:02:56	-Which goes back to what I said HERE. Honestly, if that's an aspect of writing that you (whoever the writer is) doesn't like, or doesn't feel that he/she can deal with, perhaps he/she shouldn't be participating in building a shared-world setting. Even doing research dosn't mean getting it right, some oof the source material is esoteric in the realms, and having to run down every reference in Dragon, supplements and books (novels and source) may require more time than it is worth. Especially since they have other tasks, as well as gaming to participate in. And having the choice between doing months of research to write a book or just eliminating the need, I know which I would choose. Also another thought comes to me, what if the new designers just didn't like the direction the realms had been going since the ToT? Many of us have postulated on what we would do if we were in charge of our school/job/nation, and how we would do it "right". These folks have been players for years, but had little or no input before now to shift the direction they saw as wrong, and now that they are in charge, there ideas are the ones that get used. Been there myself a few times - Every time I have taken on management duties in a job, I am faced with a wave of, "why are you changing this? We have always done it this way, and our last boss let us." To which my answer is, "then why am I the one in charge now and the old boss not, if their way worked so well?"
#104 Iluvrien Sep 01, 2008 17:08:11	Even doing research dosn't mean getting it right, some oof the source material is esoteric in the realms, and having to run down every reference in Dragon, supplements and books (novels and source) may require more time than it is worth. Especially since they have other tasks, as well as gaming to participate in. And having the choice between doing months of research to write a book or just eliminating the need, I know which I would choose. To address just this part.. I had always assumed that WotC maintained some kind of "Author's Bible" which would contain an index of referencable material at the least... and a lore bible at most. If this doesn't exist... then... well why doesn't it exist? Its usefulness would seem to be self-evident to assist writing in the setting and preventing this kind of lore-based-kerfuffle.
#105 lord_karsus Sep 01, 2008 17:08:57	Even doing research dosn't mean getting it right, some oof the source material is esoteric in the realms, and having to run down every reference in Dragon, supplements and books (novels and source) may require more time than it is worth. Especially since they have other tasks, as well as gaming to participate in. And having the choice between doing months of research to write a book or just eliminating the need, I know which I would choose. -All of which, again, is a duty that those who participate in shared settings have to deal with. If this is "too difficult", "too annoying", whatever, then, again, perhaps these people should not be participating in a shared world. I'm not lobbying that anyone should be fired, or anything of that sort, but it just strikes me as odd.
#106 naex Sep 01, 2008 17:10:30	What nobody is gonna touch the "if I ran the world, things would be different" aspect of my post? And checking every reference in that bible may have itself become a job, it would have been massive by now, and some of the references no more than a blurb. And if you overlook a simple detail, you are attacked for it. People get stuff wrong even when writing for historical or news journals, due to faulty research material, or a different understanding of a bit of lore, as happens often on these boards... Two people can see the same thing from entirely different perspectives and get two different conclusions. That is human nature.
#107 lord_karsus Sep 01, 2008 17:11:59	What nobody is gonna touch the "if I ran the world, things would be different" aspect of my post? -It is what it is. It's possible, and the designers have absolute ever right to change things that they felt were not going in a direction they liked, being WotC's designers. You'll notice that a lot of people don't necessarily dislike things that were done, in so much as they dislike the reasons things are done. I know, in many cases, I fall into that camp.
#108 Iluvrien Sep 01, 2008 17:24:56	People get stuff wrong even when writing for historical or news journals, due to faulty research material, or a different understanding of a bit of lore, as happens often on these boards... Two people can see the same thing from entirely different perspectives and get two different conclusions. That is human nature. True enough. I understand this painfully well at the moment, I am about to submit my first paper to a scientific journal and I am terrified that someone is going to go "Um. No... Because". Yet I and many others including your metaphorical news reporters or historical journalists do this. So if we can? Why can't the authors? They know they will make mistakes, we know they will... blind sea-slugs on the bottom of the abyssal plains in the ocean know this. Does this risk mitigate their desire to write? I hope not.
#109 naex Sep 01, 2008 17:31:47	True enough. I understand this painfully well at the moment, I am about to submit my first paper to a scientific journal and I am terrified that someone is going to go "Um. No... Because". Yet I and many others including your metaphorical news reporters or historical journalists do this. So if we can? Why can't the authors? They know they will make mistakes, we know they will... blind sea-slugs on the bottom of the abyssal plains in the ocean know this. Does this risk mitigate their desire to write? I hope not. Yes, but you are unlikely to be openly ridiculed on that journals website and the websites of on-line retailers of that journal for getting it wrong. And given the option of rewriting the laws of physics or number theory (not sure what your paper is on) rather than face ridicule, wouldn't it be a nice to do. Of course there is the ridicule of having changed the rules, but that will pass and than you are in the clear.
#110 Boulis Sep 01, 2008 17:32:12	A few days ago, some people in the General Discussion section were talking about the differences between Eberron and FR. Personally, I like both the settings (which I suppose makes me somewhat of an oddity) but it is clear to me that one of the major differences between the two settings was (and apparently remains, despite the FR makeover) the different stances each took toward novelization. Eberron was clearly designed to cater to those who despised the idea that the lore elaborated in the novels should have any effect on the campaign setting itself, while both P. Athans and B. Cordell stated (in point #5 of the linked article above) that one of FR’s selling points is the notion that it is a “shared” world – so much so that the novels that push “the world forward” routinely outsell those that do not! In fact, it seems – to me at least, but I may be wrong – that Eberron was sort of designed to be the un-FR: a setting where all the well-known (whether accurate or inaccurate) complaints about godlike NPCs, suffocating amounts of lore, PCs who felt “straightjacketed” by the meta-plot etc. would be “resolved.” And indeed, the Eberron setting currently remains independent of the novels and its founder and fans seem determined to keep it that way. Yet despite the appearance of Eberron as 3e’s “flagship” setting, FR lost none of its appeal and might have even gained in popularity. I think that it is very significant that it was the first setting WotC chose to translate into 4e. If one therefore accepts the basic premise that FR’s popularity is directly linked to this intimate connection that exists between the setting and its novels, the decision to change, in the developers’ words, close to 50% of the setting lore seems a strange one. Will not such a major disruption to the unfolding meta-plot mean that the long-time fans of this setting, who were attracted to it precisely because they enjoyed being a part of all that accumulated lore, will now be less likely to buy both the setting and – even more significantly – the future novels which are FR’s lifeblood? I understand that the lore was perhaps getting suffocating for many authors but this seems like the proverbial error of killing the goose that is laying the golden eggs. I can’t see how or why long-time FR fans will invest in the new novels or the new meta-plot since their investment in the old novels and meta-plot ultimately resulted in such “jaw-dropping” change as to make the old setting only partially recognizable. As a neutral (my current campaign is actually in Eberron), I have to say it makes little marketing sense. The only solution I see is that they will have to, at some point, start bringing back all the popular characters that made FR so beloved in the first place. I don’t think we will have to wait too long for a new Drizzt novel and Elminster is probably right around the corner as well. Only time will tell if FR fans will accept the new “incarnations” of these classic characters.
#111 naex Sep 01, 2008 17:37:36	If one therefore accepts the basic premise that FR’s popularity is directly linked to this intimate connection that exists between the setting and its novels, the decision to change, in the developers’ words, close to 50% of the setting lore seems a strange one. Will not such a major disruption to the unfolding meta-plot mean that the long-time fans of this setting, who were attracted to it precisely because they enjoyed being a part of all that accumulated lore, will now be less likely to buy both the setting and – even more significantly – the future novels which are FR’s lifeblood? The realms has no meta-plot to damage or destroy, just a bunch of minor plots and regional ones. Most had little or no impact on the others. And again the lore is not gone or irrelevant, just 100 years further back in history, and with a lot of gaps yet to be filled in. If the authors and designers do a good job filling in those gaps then a lot of this angst will die off and the realms will once again be the place to adventure. And bringing back old characters won't necesarily work, creating new ones (Cale being an example of the next gen of heroes) will bring back old fans and draw in new ones.
#112 Boulis Sep 01, 2008 17:38:02	Yes, but you are unlikely to be openly ridiculed on that journals website and the websites of on-line retailers of that journal for getting it wrong. And given the option of rewriting the laws of physics or number theory (not sure what your paper is on) rather than face ridicule, wouldn't it be a nice to do. Of course there is the ridicule of having changed the rules, but that will pass and than you are in the clear. Naex trust me, as a professional historian I can tell you that it is very likely you will be openly and enthusiastically ridiculed if you get your facts wrong. Not only in peer-reviewed journals but also (especially) at academic conferences and symposia. I have known PhD's to run weeping from the room after giving a "bad" paper. This (plus my love for certain hobbies) is why I am taking forever to finish my dissertation. If you don't get your facts straight as a historian you will be crucified.
#113 naex Sep 01, 2008 17:40:35	Naex trust me, as a professional historian I can tell you that it is very likely you will be openly and enthusiastically ridiculed if you get your facts wrong. Not only in peer-reviewed journals but also (especially) at academic conferences and symposia. I have known PhD's to run weeping from the room after giving a "bad" paper. This (plus my love for certain hobbies) is why I am taking forever to finish my dissertation. If you don't get your facts straight as a historian you will be crucified. That's what I like about software design and computer science. Either something works or it doesn't and you can fix it.
#114 Iluvrien Sep 01, 2008 17:48:27	And again the lore is not gone or irrelevant, just 100 years further back in history, and with a lot of gaps yet to be filled in. If the authors and designers do a good job filling in those gaps then a lot of this angst will die off and the realms will once again be the place to adventure. In a way, yes, this is a significant part of my problem with 4E FR. The lore discontinuity, the statements about not filling in the gaps and so many well loved characters and plots seeming to come to nothing whatsoever leaves a very nasty taste in my mouth. If these things were rectified? Then I think I would be far happier about where things were going. Of course the other part of my problem is how these things were done (as with LK) which, of course, is a different issue. And bringing back old characters won't necesarily work, creating new ones (Cale being an example of the next gen of heroes) will bring back old fans and draw in new ones. I am trying to keep an open mind about this one. ... Boulis is right, as a Physicist (the paper is on space plasma physics) I can agree with this. You are just as likely to be ridiculed in person, in public (without the internet's anonymity) as you are here. This (plus my love for certain hobbies) is why I am taking forever to finish my dissertation. If you don't get your facts straight as a historian you will be crucified. You too? My thesis is proving truculent... not helped, of course, by haunting these boards...
#115 lord_karsus Sep 01, 2008 17:49:44	-Gross errors and such in academic journals and doctoral dissertations, and all of that can get one thrown out of the field, metaphorically. Who'd want to work with someone that demonstrates themselves to be "inept"?
#116 Boulis Sep 01, 2008 17:54:08	The realms has no meta-plot to damage or destroy... Your point is well taken, I overused the term "meta-plot." In this sense, I was referring to the dramatic sundering of the (up until the Spellplague) seamless and shared history of the realms. But I completely agree with you: it all hinges on how well they fill the gaps, i.e. how they go about restoring the "seamlessness" of the setting's shared history. As for the old/new character dichotomy. I don't know, you might be right but I just have a hard time imagining that they would put out to pasture some of their biggest (historically) cash cows (like Drizzt) when there is still money to be made. And I can't see how existing gaps would be "filled in" without picking up the threads of old, popular stories. The thing is many FR fans spent a lot of time and money getting intimately familiar with the old setting. In your words, the number one concern should now be to not make all that (financial but obviously also emotional) investment seem "irrelevant." EDIT: You are absolutely correct Karsus and that is the reason why one must do his/her research.
#117 naex Sep 01, 2008 18:08:39	Drizzt made it into 4e. It is characters like Alusair and Mirt and the sisters that cause the most outcries on these pages, though most were minor characters, they had been around for a while, and added color to their region, and until there are replaced, though I know they can't be truly replaced, there is a gap in those places that they held. Waterdeep seems to have no familiar names among the citizenry nor does Cormyr. That is what needs to be fixed.
#118 Iluvrien Sep 01, 2008 18:26:22	Waterdeep seems to have no familiar names among the citizenry nor does Cormyr. That is what needs to be fixed. True enough, Alusair is dead, so are Fee, Caladnei, The Lady Lord, Dauntless, Alaphondar... not to mention 'Speera and the rest. The absence of these characters leaves a palpable hole. Especially when (to my knowledge) the only one actually given any kind of end is Fee and that is just the announcement of her death. And although Vangey may not be dead, per se, he certainly seems to be "absent" (change). The same with Waterdeep... no Mirt, Asper, Piergeiron, Durnan.. etc. If these characters have passed then I want to know why and how!
#119 salla Sep 01, 2008 18:34:16	Wow. Just plain wow. Pretty much everything that I loved the Realms for... has just been cited as a problem by those two gentlemen in that article. I loved the continuous nature of the narrative. I loved the layering of new stories on old. I loved the fact that not only the PCs were allowed to be "special". I loved the fact that there was never an end to my reading of it, and thus my adventures in it. I loved the way it felt more like a world than a game. I loved.... ...ahh, what's the point? This article made me sad. Thanks guys. And those things are why I didn't like FR before, and think I'll like it now. Different strokes.
#120 lord_karsus Sep 01, 2008 20:24:22	And although Vangey may not be dead, per se, he certainly seems to be "absent" (change). -He's in stasis, still. Presumably.
#121 naex Sep 01, 2008 20:31:47	-He's in stasis, still. Presumably. And I maintain that his son is now head of the War Wizards. As the Brian James article on Cormyr had the head of that group with a similar name and Myrmenn Lhal was pregnant with his heir at the end of Elminster's Daughter,
#122 merrikcale Sep 01, 2008 20:32:25	You claimed they weren't able to handle the lore. You are misinterperting my criticism of the designers, which I am doing. I am not stating that they "can't handle the lore" but as another pointed out, these designers were heavily criticized in some circles for their lore mistakes. And that had a direct effect on these decisions. That is a criticism but the not one you believe I was not one of them. I actually enjoyed the Last Mythal series and really didn't care that Rich baker forgot where the Tree of Souls was planted.
#123 Iluvrien Sep 01, 2008 20:46:18	-He's in stasis, still. Presumably. Presumably is the word. Until I hear otherwise I shall presume he is... but it would have been all to easy for them to choose to drop a continent on him or somesuch. And I maintain that his son is now head of the War Wizards. As the Brian James article on Cormyr had the head of that group with a similar name and Myrmenn Lhal was pregnant with his heir at the end of Elminster's Daughter, It may be the case... but at the moment that logic seems a bit like joining only the first and last dots on a dot-to-dot picture... and then announcing it is a monkey. Many royal Wizards have had similar names. Those lineages never run very smoothly (as far as I remember) and we still have no news of Myrmeen. For all we know, that child could have been killed with her, or stillborn or be Cabbage Farmer #4 somewhere. We need more information.
#124 naex Sep 01, 2008 20:48:07	Well since BRJ is here at the moment, maybe he will grace us with some knowledge... Well he was when I started this comment...
#125 lord_karsus Sep 01, 2008 20:59:38	And I maintain that his son is now head of the War Wizards. As the Brian James article on Cormyr had the head of that group with a similar name and Myrmenn Lhal was pregnant with his heir at the end of Elminster's Daughter, -I thought that was heavily implied, yes. Presumably is the word. Until I hear otherwise I shall presume he is... but it would have been all to easy for them to choose to drop a continent on him or somesuch. -Drop a continent on a person!? Ouch...
#126 18DELTA Sep 01, 2008 22:53:32	Please stop characterizing the designers in a negative manner. We do not need that kind of negative contribution to the FR Forums. -Leaves lurk mode. -Exactly over at candlekeep the moderators do not tolerate ANY negativity towards the FR Authors or Designers 3E OR 4E. We could learn a thing or two from them. The discussions there are quite civil even with poeple naturally being upset about the changes. -Re-enters lurk mode. 18DELTA
#127 lord_karsus Sep 01, 2008 22:55:15	-Thank you, Delta, for demonstrating one of the problems we have around here.
#128 18DELTA Sep 01, 2008 23:03:48	-Leaves lurk mode. - -Re-enters lurk mode. ;) 18DELTA
#129 Dark_Wizard_02 Sep 01, 2008 23:21:28	-Thank you, Delta, for demonstrating one of the problems we have around here. Lurkers unlurking and then relurking?
#130 lord_karsus Sep 01, 2008 23:26:16	Lurkers unlurking and then relurking? -No. Posts that serve only to illicit negative responses/negative discussion from the community.
#131 18DELTA Sep 01, 2008 23:32:38	-No. Posts that serve only to illicit negative responses/negative discussion from the community. -Leaves lurk mode. -How? -Re-enters lurk mode. 18DELTA
#132 lord_karsus Sep 01, 2008 23:37:49	-It is a form of behavior Number 5 as described in THIS post. I'm not trying to bust your chops, specifically, but you just happen to be "in my sights" right now. All other posts in the vein of "things are so sucky here, but over at X, they do it better" fit as well.
#133 18DELTA Sep 01, 2008 23:44:24	-Leaves lurk mode. -Sorry I don't see it so... -Returning to regular lurking. 18DELTA
#134 merrikcale Sep 02, 2008 11:45:09	18DELTA, no offense, man, but you are the worst lurker ever.
#135 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Sep 02, 2008 19:50:47	I'm a fan of variety. The old lore on the Tree of Souls seems like it would have given miles upon miles of frozen wastes an interesting starting area, a focusing area that players could relate to. It could have provided an intriguing jumping point with tons of traction for an entire campaign area previously unmentioned. I also liked Myth Drannor as an inhospitably threatening area. I came to FR very late in 2e, very early in 3e. I never got a chance to run through the Myth Drannor of old. Now with all the focus on it being reclaimed, it is unlikely I will find a group that embraces the old menacing flavor. I might, but it's getting harder as the idea of Myth Drannor the elven nation overrides the Myth Drannor the giant adventuring and dungeon area. Well, you can count me among those who liked the "old" version of Myth Drannor better.
#136 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Sep 02, 2008 19:59:09	Yes, but you are unlikely to be openly ridiculed on that journals website and the websites of on-line retailers of that journal for getting it wrong. And given the option of rewriting the laws of physics or number theory (not sure what your paper is on) rather than face ridicule, wouldn't it be a nice to do. Of course there is the ridicule of having changed the rules, but that will pass and than you are in the clear. I'm not entirely convinced that "criticism on the internet from fans" is a major reason for changing around the setting (and I think I mentioned Richard Lee Byers saying on Candlekeep that setting changes aren't done to make the job of authors--like him--easier).
#137 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Sep 02, 2008 20:07:55	-Exactly over at candlekeep the moderators do not tolerate ANY negativity towards the FR Authors or Designers 3E OR 4E. We could learn a thing or two from them. The discussions there are quite civil even with poeple naturally being upset about the changes. Well. Posters on Candlekeep are permitted to criticize design decisions and the general direction that the setting is being taken in. We simply aren't allowed to attack people, whether they are authors, designers, or fellow posters. Your post makes it sound (perhaps unintentionally) as if we aren't allowed to say anything negative about any official products whatsoever (after all, that'd be a criticism of the people who made said products). If that were the case, I'd have been banned from Candlekeep years ago.
#138 naex Sep 02, 2008 20:08:19	I'm not entirely convinced that "criticism on the internet from fans" is a major reason for changing around the setting (and I think I mentioned Richard Lee Byers saying on Candlekeep that setting changes aren't done to make the job of authors--like him--easier). True, but some people have thin skins, as seen on these boards from time to time. So maybe not a primary motivator, but it may have taken a part. Also note that you heard that from RLB on Candlekeep, which has a stricter policy with regards to attacking authors and designers. Many of them don't come here to the official site very often. Even Rich has stated he doesn't like the way he is attacked on the Ask the Authors thread, and has to try to ignore a lot of it just to answer the questions he feels are valid.
#139 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Sep 02, 2008 20:18:53	Also note that you heard that from RLB on Candlekeep, which has a stricter policy with regards to attacking authors and designers. Eh, I don't think that has anything to do with it. Number one, RLB IS an author. Number two, I see no reason for him to have posted on the subject just to lie about it. He could have just remained silent.
#140 naex Sep 02, 2008 20:37:44	Eh, I don't think that has anything to do with it. Number one, RLB IS an author. Number two, I see no reason for him to have posted on the subject just to lie about it. He could have just remained silent. I didn't say he lied, I did say that the negativity may have played a part. As the authors and designers seem to avoid the official site, and from what i understand it is because they feel that the environment here is a bit hostile. If you look at the Eberron sight you see Keith Baker answering questions and posting in many threads, we have to twist the arm of a designer to get just a few questions answered.
#141 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Sep 02, 2008 20:43:56	I didn't say he lied, I did say that the negativity may have played a part. Sure, it may have played a part. I'm just not convinced it played a major part.
#142 naex Sep 02, 2008 20:47:51	Sure, it may have played a part. I'm just not convinced it played a major part. I'm not saying a major part, I just get the feeling that it may have been the straw that broke the camels back.
#143 Dark_Wizard_02 Sep 02, 2008 20:56:16	These threads sometimes being hostile to authors and designers is nothing new. Before the new wave of Realms criticism due to 4E FR, there were the people who complained about the old Realms using the usual arguments (NPC, gods, RSEs, novels, retcons, etc.). These boards have a long history of that sort of thing. Technically it was the old batch of complainers who drove away most of the authors. Also, Eberron is relatively new, so probably no alternative to the WotC boards have emerged, where as FR has Candlekeep. Ed chooses to answer questions there. Many authors and designers no doubt hang out there since many of them seem to.
#144 lord_karsus Sep 03, 2008 13:50:02	-Sorry I don't see it so... -That you don't see it doesn't negate the fact that it is. It is what it is.
#145 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Sep 03, 2008 16:46:49	-That you don't see it doesn't negate the fact that it is. It is what it is. And I must say I see it the same way as LK. Sorry Delta, but your recent posts seem a bit "pouty" to me. If this board makes you so upset, perhaps it would be best to just take a full break from them, and come back when you're feeling better.