Good luck!
-There isn't too much information on the Crown Wars, and though the "sagely" side of me despises this, I am happy it is this way. If it were up to me, we would know as little about the Crown Wars as possible. It's an ancient time, that the Elves try to "keep hidden". I think the proverbial "fog of war" on this matter adds to it's mystique.
I suppose from a role-playing context it works best to keep it shrouded in mystery, but I like knowing all the little details about the history of Faerun. Especially the history of the elves, which, IMO, is sorely lacking.
-I don't care about the role-playing content and what not. The Crown Wars, for years and years, has been a very "mysterious" subject. Giving us every little detail subtracts from the mystique of the entire concept of the Crown Wars. I mean, it's not like we know "everything" about other aspects of the era. Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, the two biggest players of the era, we don't even know what their capital cities were.
-I don't care about the role-playing content and what not. The Crown Wars, for years and years, has been a very "mysterious" subject. Giving us every little detail subtracts from the mystique of the entire concept of the Crown Wars. I mean, it's not like we know "everything" about other aspects of the era. Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, the two biggest players of the era, we don't even know what their capital cities were.
The Crown Wars is such an under-developed series of events in FR. I love the whole back drop of the Wars and wish they would give a few more stories. Particularly Ynoleth......but I digress. :D
-I don't care about the role-playing content and what not. The Crown Wars, for years and years, has been a very "mysterious" subject. Giving us every little detail subtracts from the mystique of the entire concept of the Crown Wars. I mean, it's not like we know "everything" about other aspects of the era. Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, the two biggest players of the era, we don't even know what their capital cities were.
I'm a little confused about why you wouldn't want to know more about elven history, yet you are compiling the Elves of Faerun netbook. I understand that the netbook is a compilation of cannon, but I would assume that the purpose of it is to learn more about elves that you may not have already known.Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, the two biggest players of the era, we don't even know what their capital cities were.
It was Attornash!;) :P
It was Attornash!;) :P
-Atorrnash was long destroyed before the Crown Wars began. It was the capital of Ilythiir, though.
I'd rather not see any "official" version of the Crown Wars. It'd probably conflict greatly with my own accounts, which lands responsibility for the war squarely on Aryvandaar.
-It takes two to tango. Ultimately, Aryvandaar and Illythiir are the "major bad guys" throughout the five wars. Remember, the Ilythiiri did use "corrupt" magic (from Ghaunadaur, Lolth, etc.) and their arrival at such sources was unrelated to the wars.
As to why, if I don't follow canon, I wouldn't care to see an offical write-up, it's because if I see a neater idea, then I have to adjust things and try to make them fit as seamlessly as possible. (I'd still read it, though.
)But only one person asks for the dance in the first place. I regard the situation as the victors writing the history books. I'm sure it's not canon, but my campaign doesn't follow canon.
-No, it's not. Canon is impartial, as it's in a third-party point-of-view format.
-No, it's not. Canon is impartial, as it's in a third-party point-of-view format.
No. It is not impartial.
Canon is canon. It's law, so to say.
I certainly hope you simply explained that point with miswording.
No. It is not impartial.
Canon is canon. It's law, so to say.
I certainly hope you simply explained that point with miswording.
-It can't be impartial when there is actually no one "saying" these things.
I am interested in some specific lore bits about the area, mainly the war engines of the different political sides, the tactics employed by the elven generals during the time and the magic spells and armor deployed during the 5 wars.
I know most of those quiestions will remain unanswered but discussing them is relevant to my interest on these boards. (anyone remember my wholly evil ancient dark elf thread?
)So would dark elven armies deploy eagle riders as fast cavalry? Did the Ilythiiri use arcane archer units? Where Dlardrageth clerics able to hide their traffic with demons when infused by their demonic gifts during battles? Answer me!!!!
;)
I am all for reading short stories set during the Crown Wars. Bring us more of those LK!
-Don't have any more.
-It can't be impartial when there is actually no one "saying" these things.
Then that would sort of dispute your previous comments about Evermeet not being canon, due to the fact that Danillo wrote it....
Am I understanding you correctly? Or simply misunderstanding what Shiftkitty said and your response therein?
Then that would sort of dispute your previous comments about Evermeet not being canon, due to the fact that Danillo wrote it....
Am I understanding you correctly? Or simply misunderstanding what Shiftkitty said and your response therein?
-Evermeet: Island of the Elves, in and of itself, isn't necessarily canon, because it was written from the perspective of Danillo writing and receiving letters, yes. Of course, we have yet to encounter an instance where something in that book is directly disputed by something in another source, but that's neither here nor there. From my point of view, TSR/WotC has not gone against what was said in the book, so until they do, it's safe to say that the information found there within is "safe", for a lack of better words, even though technically it's not.
-Third edition books, like AGHotR, are written from the perspective of no one. AGHotR (not the vignettes) is just a collection of dates and times and everything. There isn't a specific person who is supposed to be writing all of those dates down. They just are. In that capacity, entries cannot "lie", "twist the truth", "exaggerate", or whatever else. There isn't a "persona" to do any of that.
-Makes sense, or...?
So would dark elven armies deploy eagle riders as fast cavalry? Did the Ilythiiri use arcane archer units? Where Dlardrageth clerics able to hide their traffic with demons when infused by their demonic gifts during battles? Answer me!!!!
Hm, it was relatively long before the CWs, but in the end, elves live long enough and seems not to change that fast, so, I think some things described in Elaines Evermeet novel, would also be right and still in use at the CWs. For example the battle she describes at Sharlarion, where Kethryllia fights against the orc horde and this demon (of wich I am still not sure, of what kind he was) gave some insights in battle tactics and to a minor degree to equipment. It seemed to me, that it was not so different from the things we know of "modern" times, the same mighty magical weapons, armour and so on. Priests standing behind and caring to heal the comrades, some things about how they fight in formation. Then they would have also used the circles of High Magi, if they weren't killed before. So I think that in a battle for a city during the CWs it would have looked like that. High Magi in their Tower battling against the Magis out there in the back lines of the attacking army, some real good formations of front fighters, behind them the archers and the clerical staff. In the air dragonriders and maybe some eagleriders, gryffons and so on.
About drow, Ka'Narlist seemed to use many slaves, and he was eager to enhance them, create magigal beasts, even magical enhanced drow fighters. He was intrigued by Avariel, and wanted to create flying shock troopers.
I think that Ilythiiri made similiar things, when they learned the corrupting ways of demons like Wendonai. Breed new monsters, let them fight along with hordes of slaves. Maybe they used flying beasts, why not? If the enemy uses such a weapon, it would be wise to have something similiar to counter them. Then I think they used extremly devastating High Magic and also used the ground itself, prepare traps, use tunnels (wasn't that mentioned in Evermeet, or in the sourcebook the Cormanthyr, that they used tunnels in the Underdark, long before the Descent?) to bypass the enemy and came from behind and maybe even to tunnel under a beleaguered city, crush the walls from underneath like the Turks tryied 1683 in Vienna. Such things.
I am not sure, if dark elves used evil dragons, never heard of in the context with the Realms. I got the impression that the evil dragons of the FR were not as easily "domesticated" like the ones in Krynn.
Yes. Despite that your first point seems contradictory to what you stated in the thread I began on the opposing views of EC and LS.
-Yup. I bring it up only when it suits me. Like I said, TSR/WotC has not gone against what was said in the book yet. Sources written after Evermeet: Island of the Elves have collaborated with the facts presented in the book. Until WotC goes directly against what is said in Evermeet: Island of the Elves, I have no problem tossing out the concept that Danillo wrote it, and that it can be full of holes that are all wrong. From a technical point, it can be all lies, smoke and mirrors. From a practical point, I don't think that will ever happen- that means WotC will disregard X amount of the book, and write in their own stuff, which entails more work, and rectifying, then, the new information with the old information, and the novel...
Did you check that post from Iakhovas at the ask the designer thread? Also very good and it echos your statements a little.
Show
The ancient elves of Faerie (4E Feywild) worshiped fey gods and nature spirits (what 4E would term as primal powers). Keep in mind that this period of history is impossibly ancient. Only one “sub-race” of elves existed at this time, the green elves; themselves the children of the fey creator race.
Following the Dawn War between gods and primordials, the god Corellon sought a race whose worship he could claim. He created the eladrin in the image of the elves and granted them magic, art, and ‘civilization’.
Back on Toril, the time of the creator races ended as dragon overlords conquered much of the world. Before retreating to Faerie, the fey creator race opened gates allowing green elves to immigrate to Toril. With their primal powers, the green elves succeeded in limiting the expansion of the dragon-ruled territories. By the time the eldarin (sun elves) found their way to Faerûn the age of dragons was already in decline.
Though there were of course exceptions to this rule, most eladrin at this time worshipped the Seldarine and commanded mastery of arcane magic, while the elves retained their faith in archfey and nature spirits who granted them supremacy in primal power.
Strong in their beliefs many followers of the Corellon and the Seldarine wished to impose their religious devotion on the “heathen” green elves. In many cases they were quite successful, with many green elves adopting the faiths of Rillifane, Solonor,or others.
One tribe of green elves in particular, the Ilythiiri, were staunch in their rejection of Corellon. Where was saintly Corellon Larethian, when their kind were being slaughtered by the dragon overlords? Desperate in their struggle, these southern elves turned to other, darker, powers to aid them in their fight (Ghaunadaur among others) against the dragons.
Millennia later, the coronal of the eladrin nation of Aryvandaar sought to spread the faith of the Seldarine to their “primitive” neighbor Miyeritar. To the coronal’s thinking (goaded on by the fallen angel Malkizid) any elf which rejected the ‘true faith’ of the Seldarine was branded a ‘dark-elf’ and must be forcibly brought into the faith. The green elves of Miyeritar resisted and Aryvandaar invaded, thus beginning the Crown Wars.
When Miyeritar was scoured by killing storms, the Ilythiiri were outraged. By this time the Ilythiiri (not all ‘dark elves’) were largely corrupted by their dark gods. Using vile magic, the ilythiiri marched and burned their way across the south. Reports of these atrocities just further reinforced the belief in the eladrin that Corellon’s teachings were the only ‘right and true’ path.
In time the eladrin (and Seldarin worshiping green elves) came together to cast the mighty ritual which would finally force the dark-elves to embrace the light of the Seldarine. But something went awry in the casting. Instead of bringing the heathens into the fold, the high magic bleached the hair and darkened the bodies of the non-believers to onyx (all non-believers mind you, the majority being green elves but a score or more eladrin as well). Thus were the drow of Faerûn born. Their striking similarity in appearance to the children of Kiaransalee leading some to believe that dark goddess may have had a hand in corrupting the high magic ritual which led to the dark-elves’ transformation.
Following the Dawn War between gods and primordials, the god Corellon sought a race whose worship he could claim. He created the eladrin in the image of the elves and granted them magic, art, and ‘civilization’.
Back on Toril, the time of the creator races ended as dragon overlords conquered much of the world. Before retreating to Faerie, the fey creator race opened gates allowing green elves to immigrate to Toril. With their primal powers, the green elves succeeded in limiting the expansion of the dragon-ruled territories. By the time the eldarin (sun elves) found their way to Faerûn the age of dragons was already in decline.
Though there were of course exceptions to this rule, most eladrin at this time worshipped the Seldarine and commanded mastery of arcane magic, while the elves retained their faith in archfey and nature spirits who granted them supremacy in primal power.
Strong in their beliefs many followers of the Corellon and the Seldarine wished to impose their religious devotion on the “heathen” green elves. In many cases they were quite successful, with many green elves adopting the faiths of Rillifane, Solonor,or others.
One tribe of green elves in particular, the Ilythiiri, were staunch in their rejection of Corellon. Where was saintly Corellon Larethian, when their kind were being slaughtered by the dragon overlords? Desperate in their struggle, these southern elves turned to other, darker, powers to aid them in their fight (Ghaunadaur among others) against the dragons.
Millennia later, the coronal of the eladrin nation of Aryvandaar sought to spread the faith of the Seldarine to their “primitive” neighbor Miyeritar. To the coronal’s thinking (goaded on by the fallen angel Malkizid) any elf which rejected the ‘true faith’ of the Seldarine was branded a ‘dark-elf’ and must be forcibly brought into the faith. The green elves of Miyeritar resisted and Aryvandaar invaded, thus beginning the Crown Wars.
When Miyeritar was scoured by killing storms, the Ilythiiri were outraged. By this time the Ilythiiri (not all ‘dark elves’) were largely corrupted by their dark gods. Using vile magic, the ilythiiri marched and burned their way across the south. Reports of these atrocities just further reinforced the belief in the eladrin that Corellon’s teachings were the only ‘right and true’ path.
In time the eladrin (and Seldarin worshiping green elves) came together to cast the mighty ritual which would finally force the dark-elves to embrace the light of the Seldarine. But something went awry in the casting. Instead of bringing the heathens into the fold, the high magic bleached the hair and darkened the bodies of the non-believers to onyx (all non-believers mind you, the majority being green elves but a score or more eladrin as well). Thus were the drow of Faerûn born. Their striking similarity in appearance to the children of Kiaransalee leading some to believe that dark goddess may have had a hand in corrupting the high magic ritual which led to the dark-elves’ transformation.
-Yup. I bring it up only when it suits me. Like I said, TSR/WotC has not gone against what was said in the book yet. Sources written after Evermeet: Island of the Elves have collaborated with the facts presented in the book. Until WotC goes directly against what is said in Evermeet: Island of the Elves, I have no problem tossing out the concept that Danillo wrote it, and that it can be full of holes that are all wrong. From a technical point, it can be all lies, smoke and mirrors. From a practical point, I don't think that will ever happen- that means WotC will disregard X amount of the book, and write in their own stuff, which entails more work, and rectifying, then, the new information with the old information, and the novel...
You do realize that the BS meter hit 9.2 on that, don't you?
You do realize that the BS meter hit 9.2 on that, don't you?
-Yup. It's a "fall back measure" that can be evoked when necessary, that I don't normally use.
And rising quickly.
Excellent Leiril!
Did you check that post from Iakhovas at the ask the designer thread? Also very good and it echos your statements a little.ShowThe ancient elves of Faerie (4E Feywild) worshiped fey gods and nature spirits (what 4E would term as primal powers). Keep in mind that this period of history is impossibly ancient. Only one “sub-race” of elves existed at this time, the green elves; themselves the children of the fey creator race.
Following the Dawn War between gods and primordials, the god Corellon sought a race whose worship he could claim. He created the eladrin in the image of the elves and granted them magic, art, and ‘civilization’.
Back on Toril, the time of the creator races ended as dragon overlords conquered much of the world. Before retreating to Faerie, the fey creator race opened gates allowing green elves to immigrate to Toril. With their primal powers, the green elves succeeded in limiting the expansion of the dragon-ruled territories. By the time the eldarin (sun elves) found their way to Faerûn the age of dragons was already in decline.
Though there were of course exceptions to this rule, most eladrin at this time worshipped the Seldarine and commanded mastery of arcane magic, while the elves retained their faith in archfey and nature spirits who granted them supremacy in primal power.
Strong in their beliefs many followers of the Corellon and the Seldarine wished to impose their religious devotion on the “heathen” green elves. In many cases they were quite successful, with many green elves adopting the faiths of Rillifane, Solonor,or others.
One tribe of green elves in particular, the Ilythiiri, were staunch in their rejection of Corellon. Where was saintly Corellon Larethian, when their kind were being slaughtered by the dragon overlords? Desperate in their struggle, these southern elves turned to other, darker, powers to aid them in their fight (Ghaunadaur among others) against the dragons.
Millennia later, the coronal of the eladrin nation of Aryvandaar sought to spread the faith of the Seldarine to their “primitive” neighbor Miyeritar. To the coronal’s thinking (goaded on by the fallen angel Malkizid) any elf which rejected the ‘true faith’ of the Seldarine was branded a ‘dark-elf’ and must be forcibly brought into the faith. The green elves of Miyeritar resisted and Aryvandaar invaded, thus beginning the Crown Wars.
When Miyeritar was scoured by killing storms, the Ilythiiri were outraged. By this time the Ilythiiri (not all ‘dark elves’) were largely corrupted by their dark gods. Using vile magic, the ilythiiri marched and burned their way across the south. Reports of these atrocities just further reinforced the belief in the eladrin that Corellon’s teachings were the only ‘right and true’ path.
In time the eladrin (and Seldarin worshiping green elves) came together to cast the mighty ritual which would finally force the dark-elves to embrace the light of the Seldarine. But something went awry in the casting. Instead of bringing the heathens into the fold, the high magic bleached the hair and darkened the bodies of the non-believers to onyx (all non-believers mind you, the majority being green elves but a score or more eladrin as well). Thus were the drow of Faerûn born. Their striking similarity in appearance to the children of Kiaransalee leading some to believe that dark goddess may have had a hand in corrupting the high magic ritual which led to the dark-elves’ transformation.
