So I just got a chance to read through the 4E Players Handbook 2 and overall I am just appalled at the lengths the designers will go to change the game....anyway. I am reading about the Devas and I am wondering...why? What was so wrong with Aasimars? Actually, what was so wrong with the whole plane touched races that they felt the need to completely scrap that system? It made sense! Ahem, back to Devas. Can someone please explain why it was a good idea to take a perfectly explainable race (Aasimar spawned from celestial and human) and create this race of supposed immortals who happen to practice reincarnation?
Ugh, sorry for the rant. I am reading through the book now and felt the need to vent.
I'll answer your question with another one. Why not? :P
I dunno, to make it not so obvious that you are making changes strictly to set yourself apart from the previous version. It almost ios like they want to forget that any other edition existed.
Bah, what's it matter anyway. It's like screaming at a wall. It's not like I ever get the time to game any more. I mainly read the novels and play some computer games when I can. But every time I read a new source book it's like I pulled open a scab.
I dunno, to make it not so obvious that you are making changes strictly to set yourself apart from the previous version. It almost is like they want to forget that any other edition existed.
QFT
When all your efforts look like crap compared to the greats that have gone before, the only way to make yourself "look good" is by trashing the work of those brilliant men (and women).
They decided to stop practicing forced symmetry - there doesn't have to be an Aasimar to oppose Tieflings anymore. Once you lose the Good-Evil opposite thing, there isn't as much compelling reason to play an Aasimar as there used to be. Deva still have their ties to beings of good, but it isn't played up as much.
So they decided to practice FORCED non-symmetry instead?
At least symmetry has a basis in nature (I'm sure the designers are unaware of Phi) - in the natural world, everything has balance and symmetry - a tree would fall over without it.
Only the Far Realms and Cthulhu would argue in favor of non-symmetry. :P
Also, last time I checked, D&D was still just a game. The designers have a problem with balance and symmetry while designing game rules?
Seriously... some folks really need to re-evaluate their career plans...
Can someone please explain why it was a good idea to take a perfectly explainable race (Aasimar spawned from celestial and human) and create this race of supposed immortals who happen to practice reincarnation?
Because the Deva have a more interesting backstory, Aasimar work better as a bloodline than a race, and the existence of Deva does not prevent the existence of Aasimar. In fact there essentially exists bloodline feats that can be used to recreate Aasimar(although the name has been removed) in the Ecology of the Deva article in a recent issue of Dragon.
QFT
When all your efforts look like crap compared to the greats that have gone before, the only way to make yourself "look good" is by trashing the work of those brilliant men (and women).
Only the Far Realms and Cthulhu would argue in favor of non-symmetry. :P
Did you forget about Bruce R. Cordell and his Cthulhu fetish? :P
Also, last time I checked, D&D was still just a game. The designers have a problem with balance and symmetry while designing game rules?
Another case of the right hand not knowing what the left is doing...or...someone at WotC is psycho. :D
Because the Deva have a more interesting backstory, Aasimar work better as a bloodline than a race, and the existence of Deva does not prevent the existence of Aasimar. In fact there essentially exists bloodline feats that can be used to recreate Aasimar(although the name has been removed) in the Ecology of the Deva article in a recent issue of Dragon.
Which would seem to explain why Devas have been included, but not why Aasimar have been excluded. Certainly they could be refluffed, change their nature from racial to bloodline and let people know about their nature and place in the world. This much has been done on a far grander scale with the 3E Elves => 4E Elves & Eladrin move. So why not do this as an addition rather than a replacement, as it seems to be.
Which would seem to explain why Devas have been included, but not why Aasimar have been excluded. Certainly they could be refluffed, change their nature from racial to bloodline and let people know about their nature and place in the world. This much has been done on a far grander scale with the 3E Elves => 4E Elves & Eladrin move. So why not do this as an addition rather than a replacement, as it seems to be.
Because the developers hate the name assimar?
The aasimar concept already exists as a bloodline feat(Dragon 374). There are some changes to account for the cosmology changes. Chief among them they are no longer limited to human bloodlines. Second among the changes, they come about from descent from Deva as normal angels aren't exactly suited for reproduction.
Because the developers hate the name assimar?
As you say, the mechanics exist to support the existance of the Aasimar (as a PC race) but what I am talking about is the removal of the flavour concept. When talking about excising a race (or bloodline) from the continuity in its current incarnation "because the developers hate the name assimar" falls a little... flat for me. Have them re-brand themselves in the face of the threats to the Realms, have them discover that with the new planar alignment they are closer to their celestial forebears than they were before and so choose to lose a name that was associated with their estrangement... whatever. It certainly can be done, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong in thinking that they didn't do it, so my question has always been why didn't they do it?
-This isn't Forgotten Realms specific, is it?
Well my questioning of it is, since I am directly considering pre-existing place that aasimar filled in the Realms that, now, seems to have taken a dose of the retcon-bat to the head.
I dunno, to make it not so obvious that you are making changes strictly to set yourself apart from the previous version.
I'll agree that a lot of the 4e flavor changes do strike me as being instituted largely to make 4e's flavor distinct and to differentiate it as much as possible from previous material, to a bizarre degree at times.
I swear I am going to start putting a list of the "FR discussion tropes" discussed last year in my sig. We've taked about them often enough and yet... here is number 2 in the list from a post I made on August 28th 2008.
Because the developers hate the name assimar?
The aasimar concept already exists as a bloodline feat(Dragon 374). There are some changes to account for the cosmology changes. Chief among them they are no longer limited to human bloodlines. Second among the changes, they come about from descent from Deva as normal angels aren't exactly suited for reproduction.
What bothers me is that for a very long time, Deva's were a very powerful celestial being. They were pretty much the equivalent of a mid to high level demon/devil. But now for some reason they are this weird immortal/mortal entity which happens to be a player race. The whole design is just so weird and unnecessary. They kind of did the same thing with Dragonborn. Why are they around? Why do we even need more player races?
What is so wrong with just human, elf, dwarf, halfling, gnome, half-orc? When they started adding more races in 3E at least they did it in a more sensible way by keeping those races closer to fantasy reality. The tiefling, aasimar, genasi were great as sub-races of humans. They were nice little additions and could easily fit into the lore.
Indeed, but it is not "my novel". We do not get to choose what flavour is retained in that case but can be equally peeved when it does get changed in favour of something seemingly nonsensical or ill-explained.
I swear I am going to start putting a list of the "FR discussion tropes" discussed last year in my sig. We've taked about them often enough and yet... here is number 2 in the list from a post I made on August 28th 2008.
I did apologize if I happened to retread a discussion. As for the novels, that is my biggest beef. I don't ever have time to game anymore. But I eat the novels up like candy and I don't like designers mucking up my favorite story lines.
I did apologize if I happened to retread a discussion. As for the novels, that is my biggest beef. I don't ever have time to game anymore. But I eat the novels up like candy and I don't like designers mucking up my favorite story lines.
You and me both, and as far as I know the Deva issue has yet to be addressed in any serious fashion (apart, I think, from one "WTF?!" question to Rich early one). I too apologise if I am wrong about that.
And yes, I agree, it is a bit hard when favoured bits of setting (including NPCs) are excised. Unfortunately there is a sum total of nothing we can do about it that will have any effect, we can only ask the author/designer "Why?" and hope for an answer. Not that that matters much either, I still occasionally check for more information about the NPCs MIA over the time jump period. Not much hope there. Of the 31 I was interested in reading more about 21 are dead, 5 more are probably dead and of the 5 that are left not one of them is likely to feature in a novel due to being de-powered or mislaid. It bites, but as I said, what can we do?
[And I did add a short list of FR discussion Tropes from the original thread to my sig! :D ]
Well my questioning of it is, since I am directly considering pre-existing place that aasimar filled in the Realms that, now, seems to have taken a dose of the retcon-bat to the head.
-And, thank you for steering the discussion in the right direction.
So they decided to practice FORCED non-symmetry instead?
Might have missed the point of what forced symmetry means. Forced symmetry is creating an opposite to something regardless of whether it's equally as interesting or useful as the original.
So for example, while the Nine Hells and so forth are exciting locations full of danger and mystery, peaceful planes where nothing happens might be symmetrical but are deeply dull; it's a waste of everyone's time to devote book space to describing them just because you spent that space on their opposite number.
So here, they said, are Aasimar as inherently interesting as Tieflings? And they decided "no". Now, that's a debatable call - it's fine to say they got that wrong, that Aasimar are a great idea - but having made that call, scrapping Aasimar is a perfectly valid response.
And for the record, I never liked Aasimar, and I think Deva are pretty silly too. (Although I'm currently playing one. Go figure.)
-And, thank you for steering the discussion in the right direction.
I do try to do the occasional positive thing for the boards you know. Just to mix things up. ;)
So for example, while the Nine Hells and so forth are exciting locations full of danger and mystery, peaceful planes where nothing happens might be symmetrical but are deeply dull; it's a waste of everyone's time to devote book space to describing them just because you spent that space on their opposite number.
Well now here is the kicker now isn't it. The fault in the reasoning appears at "peaceful planes where nothing happens". This is the bit I don't understand. While there are surely planes where everything is bright sunshine and light in a well defended centre... considering the amount of planeswalking that seems to be being emphasised in the current edition most planes might as well install a revolving door. I can't think of anything the demons and devils would like more than to spank the forces of good in their own domain. I had always imagined the Good planes to be places seething with activity, planning ways to prevent nasty things happening to nice people in other planes, preventing invasive nasties wandering into their own planes, devising new ways to shut the Evil planes up in a planar prison. That kind of thing. I may be entirely wrong in my view of this, but I always saw them as having a heart of Light ringed by walls of Steel. If that view is not fundamentally erroneous then there will always be interesting things for the planar beings and planar visitors to do as they flit back and forth between those places and the Realms.
On that basis, Aasimar are indeed an interesting concept.
So here, they said, are Aasimar as inherently interesting as Tieflings? And they decided "no". Now, that's a debatable call - it's fine to say they got that wrong, that Aasimar are a great idea - but having made that call, scrapping Aasimar is a perfectly valid response.
Who's talking about the response? The OP specifically deals with the "Why" of the decision, not the response itself. In this case we are doing exactly what you say is fine, we are debating this "debatable call". I for one think they got it wrong, and I have presented reasons why I think this.
The universe could have remained balanced, and the designers could have just produced large amounts of material covering the more interesting sections - the entire Planescape setting was built that way. If something seemed boring to D&D players - like Mount Celestial - then don't devote large amounts of book-space to it; just mention it with a brief description and move on.
There was no need to trash all of the old lore just becaue it was "uninteresting" - they could have just ignored it instead. Now the entire multiverse is out-of-balance and spinning out of control.
I happen to find Cormyr boring , because it's too 'civilized' for me. As a DM, I want to run stuff in wilder areas, and thats why I stay in the Moonsea North, and Cormanthor and the Dales. However, I wouldn't get rid of Cormyr just because I find it boring - it wouldn't make sense. Also, I could make the point that what four men decided was boring isn't neccesarilly what the entire rest of the planet found boring - they seemed to have gotten rid of quite a lot because of their own personal opinions.
So if I was a 4e desingner, it would have been Okay for me to get rid of Cormyr, right? You know... because I, pesonally, don't find it useful? I feel bad for all those folks who were running rather intersting games down in the Old Empires - obviously they didn't know what fun was.
Maybe the rest of us weren't the ones playing the game wrong... maybe it was the guys making all the decisions that were clueless.