I bring this up because I've seen a few DM's who used the realms faith system to basically meta-game. In that sense they've instructed that all clerics have to shout their prayers to their gods as if they are directly asking them at that moment for a certain prayer, as oppose to having prepared those spells earlier and are now just completing the words needed to cast it... my idea is something like, you prayed at noon for the spells you wanted and then when a battle starts you're just showing the names of the spells you prepared usually one at a time. As oppose to what I can gather from DM's I've heard of, "Oh Tyr, god of such and such, grant me this flame strike so that I can blast away our enemies. Aaaaaaaaaaa-Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan!"
So does this hurt your view of the clerics in the realms. Will you be immediately house ruling that Clerics have no real power like back in 3.x, or will you embrace what is to come.
they pray for the power to cast specific spells, and then when they physically cast them, they say the prayer/words of power, and bada-bing, bada-boom.
Seconded, though I usually don't even require my players to say aloud the prayers they're using. Also in 3.x you weren't even required to believe in a god but could believe in "ideals" (to get crazy Domain combos like Time and Strength) which really made no sense to me and I always houseruled the fact that you MUST believe in a deity to receive divine power.
Seconded, though I usually don't even require my players to say aloud the prayers they're using.
-When DMing, I don't require my players to say anything, but I have it in mind that the characters are offering a prayer, and saying words of power that trigger the spell.
The actual praying rituals are the moments a PC beseeches his patron for power. In battle the utterances of a cleric can let foes fall to their knees at the clerics command in mere seconds (a standard action).
The investment ritual will be reversable in my realms, but only by very high ranking clerics. Any good evil cleric will want to have fail saves against his lessers...
-When DMing, I don't require my players to say anything, but I have it in mind that the characters are offering a prayer, and saying words of power that trigger the spell.
Likewise, though maybe I should start making them say something when they turn undead or cast spells to get more into character. It's a thought i've been contemplating for a while now. Same goes for arcane spellcasters too.....
Likewise, though maybe I should start making them say something when they turn undead or cast spells to get more into character. It's a thought i've been contemplating for a while now. Same goes for arcane spellcasters too.....
-Eh, depends on the players, really. Some might be into it, others won't, and will like you less. ;)
"AMAUNATOR! ...give me the power!" ;)
Also in 3.x you weren't even required to believe in a god but could believe in "ideals" (to get crazy Domain combos like Time and Strength) which really made no sense to me and I always houseruled the fact that you MUST believe in a deity to receive divine power.
I agree with this. Character creation is not only a sheet and I hate munchkinism to create so weird domain combos. Although, with so many options (including new domains) I rather accept a good background with a good reason to take two domains. At first instance, choose a god on which those two domains can be based, and if none really suits what you're looking for (and it's difficult to find none!) then don't choose anyone.
Of course, in the Realms (at least previous to 4e) YOU MUST CHOOSE A DEITY!
Of course, in the Realms (at least previous to 4e) YOU MUST CHOOSE A DEITY!
-As I said somewhere else, if this changes: All hail Pork! Grant me thine swine power!
-As I said somewhere else, if this changes: All hail Pork! Grant me thine swine power!
If this changes we are going to see a cleric of Pork who has chosen Time and Strength as her domains.
(woops, I forgot that 4e clerics of different gods can be absolutely equally the same)
make them do it with weird accents
I don't need to made up accents, mine's thick enough already! :D
Will you leave this as is, and just accept now that Clerics actually have powers instead of just asking for miracles? or Will you say "Nay!" and come up with away to say that Clerics are always asking their gods for prayers?
I personally like the former, because now it makes me think the cleric isn't just a servant but a avatar of a deity he chooses to champion.
Plus, it matches my own personal beliefs - its not the "all-powerful being" that gives you the strength - that comes from within. Its your Faith that empowers you, even if you worship a cosmic muffin. ;)
If you have trouble reconciling that in your game, look at it as a byproduct of a 'Weaveless World".. Since Mystra could directly deny a god's worshipper access to divine spells (canon), with the weave gone, those powers are now there for the taking. The interface is gone - it's like a city-wide 'blackout', and now all those plasma-screen TVs are just sitting there in the store window for you to grab.
If this changes we are going to see a cleric of Pork who has chosen Time and Strength as her domains.
Clerics of Future Pork?
Note that clerics still need to be invested in the power by a deity at first. They can 'break away' later, which will allow for some odd elements such as clerics of the 'wrong' alignment. However I think it is likely that clerics that abuse a deity's power will face consequences eventually.
Actually, I kind of like this new slant, and it fits better with Spelljammer and other settings where you may be 'out of touch' with your god.
Plus, it matches my own personal beliefs - its not the "all-powerful being" that gives you the strength - that comes from within. Its your Faith that empowers you, weveb if you worship a cosmic muffin. ;)
If you have trouble reconciling that in your game, look at it as a byproduct of a 'Weaveless World".. Since Mystra could directly deny a god's worshipper access to divine spells (canon), with the weave gone, those powers are now there for the taking. The interface is gone - it's like a city-wide 'blackout', and now all those plasma-screen TVs are just sitting there in the store window for you to grab.
I agree, I think it's a wonderful idea that clerics now channel their own divine power, as oppose to some figments power. So to clarify, Clerics in 4e Have their own divine power, which stems from their on investiture or are ordained with such powers by a fellow cleric.
How does everyone feel about clerics not needing to pray to gods or specifically use power words to invoke their gods powers for a spell in 4ed? This was basically the core of my original question.
Will you leave this as is, and just accept now that Clerics actually have powers instead of just asking for miracles? or Will you say "Nay!" and come up with away to say that Clerics are always asking their gods for prayers?
I personally like the former, because now it makes me think the cleric isn't just a servant but a avatar of a deity he chooses to champion.
-I will say "Nay".
I have to confess I've been thinking about the new ideas behind clerics and I'm not sure how much I like it. Let me put it this way--it doesn't really bother me that clerics are "empowered" by their faith. However, it seems to me that once they are ordained as a priest, they no longer even have to adhere to their faith. To me, I find that bothersome in a world where priests have powers AND the gods absolutely exist. A why even bother having alignment restrictions for clerics, many of which don't even make much sense (ie. Sehanine accepts clerics of all alignments, even though one of her stated teachings is to "avoid the blazing light of good and the utter darkness of evil", that is, to be more or less neutral)?
Just roll with it....
I have to confess I've been thinking about the new ideas behind clerics and I'm not sure how much I like it. Let me put it this way--it doesn't really bother me that clerics are "empowered" by their faith. However, it seems to me that once they are ordained as a priest, they no longer even have to adhere to their faith. To me, I find that bothersome in a world where priests have powers AND the gods absolutely exist. A why even bother having alignment restrictions for clerics, many of which don't even make much sense (ie. Sehanine accepts clerics of all alignments, even though one of her stated teachings is to "avoid the blazing light of good and the utter darkness of evil", that is, to be more or less neutral)?
Just roll with it....
I never really thought of it that way Rinonalyrna, but none the less considering Ody's response I just have to
yeah, thats all. 
It wouldn't be the first time the rules were changed to fit RAS's writing.
Besides, in 3e priests could take a Feat and worship a 'dead' god, so why the hell can't they 'wander away' from a live one and still receive benefits? Obviously their was already a mechanism in place for priests to receive spells without a god's help - it might not fit with FR, but it fits with ALL other settings (as I have said often before).
FR has been boiled down to it's lowest common denominators - the Weave, its 'forced' god worship, the Chosen and other high-lev NPCs... all gone because they set FR apart from the rest. Now we don't have 'Core' and 'FR' players, which is exactly what WotC was shooting for (and they have said as much). I just hope that making FR a victim of it's own popularity was worth it for them.
Its a New game Folks! Just Roll with it... ;)
I never really thought of it that way Rinonalyrna, but none the less considering Ody's response I just have to
I'm not against all the new design principles, per se, I just think some of the rules behind them don't make much sense (like the aforementioned alignment restrictions).
While it seems to us right now that some of the world design was not-well-though-out, and downright idiotic in places, maybe there is a backstory that required them to handle things the way they did.
I doubt it, but its possible. The Spellplague I totally understand and can get behind, and think it was a great way to change magic for the 4e rules... but the Timejump and Abeir just makes me go "WTF?!" right now.
I can even understand the Timejump, even though I thoroughly HATE IT - they were trying to put everyone on even ground for 4e. Personally, I think all the lazy people should have read the FR material instead of insisting it be erased so they can feel good about themselves, but that wasn't my call to make.
But I do understand why that call was made.
Abeir just confuses the crap out of me. It seems like a 2nd grader's way of explaning why his 'magical world' looks different from one day to the next. In fact, if each and every change was explained in its own way (they had a hundred years, for Chrisakes!), I might have been playing 4e in the Realms right now... but that 'all-encompassing' reason for the changes is just so... cheap.
Its like an author's ultimate plot-device to cover all their mistakes... and most of those changes weren't even neccessary. Every change they have made so far to fit new races I and others have come up with alternate lore that better fits the Realms we know and love. I could care less what they do - all I ask is that EACH change be thought-out seperately, along with its ramifications on Realmslore.
And its an on-going thing too, which makes it even more revolting. If some Core book introduces 'Catfolk' (or whatever), then they can just add in a new 'Catfolk Realm' and over-write whatever was there, because "Abeir farted again".
The Spellplague I totally understand and can get behind, and think it was a great way to change magic for the 4e rules... but the Timejump and Abeir just makes me go "WTF?!" right now.
-Agreed.
But this is just too much. Way too much