Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 bombshop May 19, 2009 13:36:59	I just recently completed the Twilight War series with Shadow Realm. Suffice to say, I was a bit perplexed with the limitless abilites regarding a few characters. At my understanding, Mask is a lesser God. Kesson Rel aquired a "portion" of Mask divinity. Which would thus have Kesson Rel at a remaining state of under achievement in comparison to Mask still. Subsequent to Kesson Rel's lesser divinity being alienated by 3 following his death (Cale/Riven/Rivalen), one would beg the assumption that the remaning divinity being separated yet again and by that of a larger number, would have anyone of the 3 acquiring this power to be no more than a potent mortal. Now that my perspective has been realized, I would like to allocate my distastefulness of future questions to come. Regarding Mephistopheles (Lord of the Eighth, Archduke of Cania), being that he himself is older than mask, but not Shar, would most-likley constitute his superiority to the lesser Deity (Lord of Shadow). When Cale had and the Arch Devil had agreed upon their transaction granting the Arch Devil a "portion" of a lesser Deitey that had already been split 3 ways, I was at a loss to as of how Riven using his divinity was able to overwhelm the already more powerful Arch Devil. If you pay attention to detail, one would conclude that: A) Mephistopheles would be superior to the Shadow Lord regarless of his divinity being split or not. B) The Arch Devil was in his own domain granting him an already distinct advantage. C) Even in a hypothetical perspective,visualizing Riven with the full amount of the divinity from Kesson Rel, he would still be at a great loss in battle, if not already considering him doomed. D) Including all the demons,devils,minios and/or any other combat-ready slaves, the sheer amount of entities amoung the Lord of the Eighth would inevitably overwhelm and consume Riven regardless of his split lesser-divinity. I am just curious to as of what anyones thoughts may be regarding this observation. If the author of this novel should happen to read this, I'd kindly ask you to quietly observe to yourself and nothing more, for the reasoning of potential biasness which is completely understandable putting myself in your perspective. Future thanks for everyones time and thoughts.
#2 quale1 May 19, 2009 14:54:35	it happened that way cause the CR in 3e of archdevils and similar beings is around 20 and 30, much below gods and so Riven being an epic level character stood a chance the designers decided that PCs should be able to kill Anthraxus or similar, no matter that these creatures ruled an infinite realm there is an opposite inconsistency, why woukd Mask run from Kezef of the Champions of Ruin actually if Realmspace is 70 000 years old it's probable that Meph is older than Shar
#3 lord_karsus May 19, 2009 15:14:25	-Mephistopheles let him "have his fun" and then went about his business killing people and things, as he saw fit. That's the only way to make absolute sense of the situation you bring up, the situation in which a bunch of Shadovar magicians forcibly summon and bind him to begin with, the situation in Thay where Szass Tam forcibly summons and binds Bane...
#4 bombshop May 20, 2009 10:27:08	actually if Realmspace is 70 000 years old it's probable that Meph is older than Shar That's unfortunate because, it was stated in Shadow Realm that Mephistopheles is in fact older than Mask, but not Shar. I guess Paul Kemp is a flawed writter with faulty information. According to you at least. -Mephistopheles let him "have his fun" and then went about his business killing people and things, as he saw fit. Why would he do such a thing? If anything, the most logical thing to do would be to bind Riven in his domain and extract further divinity to strengthen himself. As you said, if Bane and a Arch Devil can be binded, I'm quite sure Mephistopheles could do the same to another that entered his own personal realm. - the situation in which a bunch of Shadovar magicians forcibly summon and bind him to begin with He was not forced to be summoned. It was stated that the "Most High" stayed in hiding knowing the Arch Devil would not appear in the event of one of his subornments being called for questoning, less he'd know who would be among the questoners (The most high).
#5 lord_karsus May 20, 2009 10:30:00	Why would he do such a thing? -Because he is Mephistopheles, Ruler of Caina, Lord of the Eighth, and can do practically anything he wants. He was not forced to be summoned. It was stated that the "Most High" stayed in hiding knowing the Arch Devil would appear in the event of one of his subornments being called for questoning. -Mephistopheles was (as portrayed) forcibly bound and compelled to aid his summoners. Whether or not he actually was, or was simply playing along, as it suited his own plans, is up to debate.
#6 bombshop May 20, 2009 10:34:43	can do practically anything he wants. Exactly....? So why not do something that would obviously benefit himself? -Mephistopheles was (as portrayed) forcibly bound and compelled to aid his summoners. Whether or not he actually was, or was simply playing along, as it suited his own plans, is up to debate. Forcibly bound is fine, but summoned I'd still have to disagree with. If you should ever happen to re-read the section again, it will state that Mephistopheles never had to answer anyones summoning.
#7 keveras May 20, 2009 10:35:33	That's unfortunate because, it was stated in Shadow Realm that Mephistopheles is in fact older than Mask, but not Shar. I guess Paul Kemp is a flawed writter with faulty information. According to you at least. Well, the 70,000 years came from Ed, and it was more of just a possibility, wasn't it? However, even if Abeir-Toril and thus Shar is a few billions of years old (comparable to Earth) I'd still consider Mephistopheles older than Shar, since imo the Nine Hells (and the Outer Planes for that matter) are considerably older than the Prime, and so he likely came into being a good time before Shar, even though he's not one of the oldest beings out there.
#8 lord_karsus May 20, 2009 10:37:20	Exactly....? So why not do something that would obviously benefit himself? -Ultimatley, things might benefit him. The full story isn't played out. His informing Brennus of Rivanen's murder of their mother, for example, has yet to be resolved. Mephistopheles is effectively immortal, and isn't in a rush to attempt to take over the Nine Hells from Asmodeus. Letting Erevis Cale and Riven think they had the upper hand might be in his benefit, for whatever reason.
#9 bombshop May 20, 2009 10:40:29	Shar is a few billions of years old (comparable to Earth) Not in the bible friend (6,000) ;) Which would also suggest that dinosaurs never existed either. Sometimes I think religious history can compete with that of Forgotten Realms fantasy. and so he likely came into being a good time before Shar, even though he's not one of the oldest beings out there. So once again, this begs the question of a false statement in such a popular fan based novel. Why would Paul Kemp Go against Ed's creational mythology? Letting Erevis Cale and Riven think they had the upper hand might be in his benefit, for whatever reason. Or just to lengthen a decent story I suppose also. Which is fine, I was honestly curious.
#10 lord_karsus May 20, 2009 10:48:55	So once again, this begs the question of a false statement in such a popular fan based novel. Why would Paul Kemp Go against Ed's creational mythology? -The creation myths do not include dates; they aren't necessarily even true. Most dates that exist have been created by fans, attempting to date the setting by using the timelines of other settings, which have existed side-by-side Realmspace, for most of D&D. Or just to lengthen a decent story I suppose also. Which is fine, I was honestly curious. -By that point in the book, the story (The Twilight War) was done. The resolution between the promise made between Cale and Mephistopheles needed to be resolved. Whether or not more should be read into it, as we are doing, or simply finishing things in the quickest manner possible, is something that we don't know. Only Paul Kemp and/or the D&D editors (Phil Athans, still, I think) know.
#11 keveras May 20, 2009 10:50:36	it happened that way cause the CR in 3e of archdevils and similar beings is around 20 and 30, much below gods and so Riven being an epic level character stood a chance the designers decided that PCs should be able to kill Anthraxus or similar, no matter that these creatures ruled an infinite realm there is an opposite inconsistency, why woukd Mask run from Kezef of the Champions of Ruin Did I ever express my disdain for that particular bit of design philosophy? So once again, this begs the question of a false statement in such a popular fan based novel. Why would Paul Kemp Go against Ed's creational mythology? Well, I don't know, though a relative newcomer (in a cosmological view of things) as Shar one is being older than a guy like Mephi is just ridiculous.
#12 bombshop May 20, 2009 10:54:33	Well, I don't know, though a relative newcomer (in a cosmological view of things) as Shar one is being older than a guy like Mephi is just ridiculous. I understand what you are suggesting, but my quarrel is the fact that it was stated in the novel. So my theory is that, none of the novels are proof read to connect the dots with other authors/FR mythology. They just hope no one screws up their stories too bad I suppose.
#13 quale1 May 20, 2009 15:53:52	That's unfortunate because, it was stated in Shadow Realm that Mephistopheles is in fact older than Mask, but not Shar. I guess Paul Kemp is a flawed writter with faulty information. According to you at least. not really, it's not his fault, FR had three different cosmologies, that caused some contradictions and difficulties for authors The age of Realmspace was mentioned once by Ed on Candlekeep, it can be easily missed in that vast amount of replies, I don't know who reads them all (except Sage). In the Great Tree cosmology Baator is most likely an interloping plane from the millions of years older Great Wheel. Considering the information in PGtF, the rulers of planar races serve the gods, are weaker and can be harmed by epic PCs. So Kemp isn't to be blamed, he does his research well comparing to Salvatore, Smedman, Byers etc. Did I ever express my disdain for that particular bit of design philosophy? yea, I ignore it as well, most gods are actually weaker than Meph cause I like the Athar, not that it effects the lives of PCs and what they know about the world
#14 bombshop May 21, 2009 9:16:40	not really, it's not his fault, FR had three different cosmologies, that caused some contradictions and difficulties for authors Why can't they just come to an agreement? I'm not really a big DnD player, but wouldn't such a diverse "cosmologies" make it considerably hard for a DM? Perhaps ED has some organization to maintain. yea, I ignore it as well, most gods are actually weaker than Meph cause I like the Athar So you would agree that put in a logical perspective, Meph would be stronger than that of Mask, and therefore stronger than a portion of a divinity from that split into 3?