I hope that they are going to undo all the changed otherwise I won't bother picking up anything past 3.5.
Im not going to say the Spellplague is Awesome or anything, but if they went and "undid" all the changes that would be a total cop out, like when Bobby wasnt really dead on Dallas, remember Dallas?
One of the things I like about FR is its always changeing, like a real living and breathng world, the FR from 20 years ago is not the same as it is now, as it should be.
I hope that they are going to undo all the changed otherwise I won't bother picking up anything past 3.5.
Im not going to say the Spellplague is Awesome or anything, but if they went and "undid" all the changes that would be a total cop out, like when Bobby wasnt really dead on Dallas, remember Dallas?
One of the things I like about FR is its always changeing, like a real living and breathng world, the FR from 20 years ago is not the same as it is now, as it should be.
Dude I am completely for AO showing up and completely undoing everything done EXACTLY like Dallas.
I can't even find the force to rant... I think it was dumb for me to even make this post. I am probably going to get insulted and just lose my temper.
-The same thing applies for those people who want WotC to revert the rights of the setting to Ed Greenwood. That'd be even more disasterous. Plenty of things that have happened that we know about like the back of our hands would not be able to be used by Ed Greenwood should that happen, because WotC owns the rights to things like, say, "Beholders", or things like that. We'd have the shell of the Forgotten Realms, but in tatters. Massive swaths of it would have to be altered, for copyright reasons, or removed, or whatever else. And, when that happens, is it still the Forgotten Realms that we've grown to like? I, certainly, would say no.
I can't even find the force to rant... I think it was dumb for me to even make this post. I am probably going to get insulted and just lose my temper.
Well im not trying to insult you, and im guessing that you made this thread to discuss the topic, which i am trying to do. I'm not saying that I like everything they did, but to go back now and change it would be against what the Realms is supposed to be. The Realms are always changing and all that. But you dont have to use their timeline, Its your Realms, you can change what ever you dont like in your campaign. I personaly like the Spellplauge concept, but I think they relied on it to heavly to explain away certain things, that really didnt need it, like the Dragonborn, they could of easily said that Dragonborn were always there, instead of saying oh yeah they ported in from an alternate prime material plane.
-The same thing applies for those people who want WotC to revert the rights of the setting to Ed Greenwood.
Yes! Excellent point!
I hope that they are going to undo all the changed otherwise I won't bother picking up anything past 3.5.
WotC made the changes they did based on what they thought were sound reasons. Their salaries are tied to the success of their vision, so they actually have a good incentive to make informed, smart choices. The Market will be their ultimate judge. For good or for bad they have charted their course and nothing is going to make them turn around and go back. Although, perhaps some gentle coaxing could maybe convince them to alter their course slightly in new directions.
If you don't like the changes, well, okay, then feel free not to support them economically, but whining about it is not going to change their minds, and not supporting them financially is only going to put you in the category of "not one of our customers"; which means they have no incentive to try and please you.
You would be much better served by proclaiming loudly how much you love the Realms and would gladly pay money to buy more Realms books if they would only just publish them... and by the way, could they please write some more lore about such and such, because you really like that kind of lore...
You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. And if you were to post on the boards your creative ideas about the Realms, if you were engaging and witty and full of enthusiasm, perhaps the boards would swell with fans, and WotC would see a market there and want to publish more books for them to buy.
I hope that they are going to undo all the changed otherwise I won't bother picking up anything past 3.5.
Sweet lord! If you are going to take all your marbles and go home, then could you also please stop posting on the board and quit whining about it? Honestly, it's negative, whiny threads like this that drive interesting people away from the boards. No one likes to come to the boards and read posts like yours. It's a big downer. Posts like yours are detrimental to the community and really serve no purpose except to aggrandize your overdeveloped sense of outrage.
WotC made the changes they did based on what they thought were sound reasons. Their salaries are tied to the success of their vision, so they actually have a good incentive to make informed, smart choices. The Market will be their ultimate judge. For good or for bad they have charted their course and nothing is going to make them turn around and go back. Although, perhaps some gentle coaxing could maybe convince them to alter their course slightly in new directions.
If you don't like the changes, well, okay, then feel free not to support them economically, but whining about it is not going to change their minds, and not supporting them financially is only going to put you in the category of "not one of our customers"; which means they have no incentive to try and please you.
You would be much better served by proclaiming loudly how much you love the Realms and would gladly pay money to buy more Realms books if they would only just publish them... and by the way, could they please write some more lore about such and such, because you really like that kind of lore...
You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. And if you were to post on the boards your creative ideas about the Realms, if you were engaging and witty and full of enthusiasm, perhaps the boards would swell with fans, and WotC would see a market there and want to publish more books for them to buy.
I would like to spin your comment on its head and say its the poor choices made with the Forgotten Realms campaign that have driven players away. I feel like I saw someone run up to the Mona Lisa and start slashing it with a knife. For me my best suggestion is to make Spell Plague and alternate storyline and change it back to the way it was.
After that, then treat him like **** if he doesn't want to listen. I care not. Otherwise, interesting or not, you may just be driving off a contributing member to the society--if not all that "interesting" to begin with.
I can't believe that they have decided to go with a dying magic story arc again.
They didn't. If anything. magic is more alive than ever. The elves have reconnected to the feywild and acquired new powers, genasi are prevalent, pockets of wild magic exist all over (no dead magic zones!), and there are more ways to use magic than there ever where, now that the Weave is gone and (apparantly) no longer needed.
You can be dissapointed in the course they took, but the presumption you make here is wrong. Magic is not dying, it instead seems to be getting stronger.
Edit: also, you may find that the more they change, they more it stays the same. Look at Cormyr, Dalelands, Waterdeep, Luruar, even Aglarond. Some movers and shakers have gone, but a lot has stayed the same as well.
Gomez
It is just another Darksun, Ravenloft, Eberron depressing dying world now...
There is so much wrong in this one sentence that I'm not even sure where to begin.
Firstly, Dark Sun is coming out this year and is absolutely nothing like FR. It has no gods, the entire world is dead on levels that FR can't even compete with, the campaign setting is pretty brtual and its an entirely different style of campaign setting to FR and even Eberron. There is no coherent comparison between FR and Dark Sun.
Ravenloft is also nothing like FR in any way, except perhaps for some comparison with Thay and Ravenloft. Thay is probably the only post-spellplague region of FR that can pull off a Ravenloft like feel in any manner. Even then I'm not sure.
Eberron is a depressing dying world? Really? Do you know absolutely nothing about Eberron? What about it is "dying" in any manner? The Mournland exploded Cyre, but the entire continent is still actually there and there isn't any indication that the Mournland is suddenly going to expand and devour anything (Short of a campaign or novel focusing on this - but thankfully Eberron is smart and disconnects novel canon from the campaign setting so no risk of this. Someones home campaign about that is hardly likely to be canon). I don't see what is any more depressing about Eberron compared to FR either, actually I see Khorvaire as more of a bastion of "light" than anywhere in FR with its well connected lightning rail network, industrialized magic and current state of relative peace (albeit they are undergoing a WW1 like Phoney war like scenario as a part of the setting - but this is either important or not depending on what the campaigns theme is).
4E FR to me is the most plain fantasy of those, a kitchen sink you can dump anything you want into it and play a high fantasy concept most easily. It's nothing like Dark Sun, Eberron or Ravenloft in any way except for maybe the odd superficial resemblence with the odd region to any of those games.
I loved the old Realms, but even I can recognize that sometimes change is the only way to grow... and I'm loving the freedom I now have as a DM within that setting.
Oh, and magic is very present in the new setting, so I'd actually read the Campaign Guide/Player's Handbook before writing it off.
As Wizards themselves have said, the Realms were so established that there was precious little wiggle-room. There were no unexplored areas to discover, no new threats... it was all mapped out and set in stone. The Spellplague did what needed doing to breathe new life into the Realms; it reset them.
I loved the old Realms, but even I can recognize that sometimes change is the only way to grow... and I'm loving the freedom I now have as a DM within that setting.
Oh, and magic is very present in the new setting, so I'd actually read the Campaign Guide/Player's Handbook before writing it off.
I disagree with that point of view. The biggest threat was the trouble that DMs mind could develop for the players with a huge cast of characters and immersive lore to put the players in. There was nothing wrong with the realms, they were the perfect fantasy settings. All this did was take a vibrant world and turn it into another depressing place with no hope. Now with spell plauge you have forced players hands and limited options instead of provided more. If you wanted change you could have ran games in Dark sun, Eberron or Dragonlance. I think the problem with Forgotten Realms is it would have required work on the part of the developers to change anything. Looking at the latest book that came out they obviously wanted to avoid that.
I tell you what, Anarkis, they (WotC) could have made the Realms transition to the Fourth Edition D&D rules without killing off Mystra, and especially without involving the deities in yet another damned soap opera-like drama.
In that regard, it's my humble opinion that the design team well and truly screwed up.
Some folks have said in this thread that magic is more alive than ever....and that's true. Thing of it is, magic was already alive and well through the infinite flavors of it found in Mystra's Weave.
I can't fully begrudge the designers for screwing things up, because every week I DM for my longtime friends in this new era of the Realms and we sure as hell have a blast playing D&D in it.
I can see the game designers and novel editor(s) holding out for the option of reinstating Mystra at some future point. They've certainly left enough options open for it. But I can't see how they'd pull off a magical "undo" of all else that's come to pass.
This is my last post. I hope FR 4.0 completely tanks and they fire those respondsible. I will be calling WoTC to let them know my complete disappointment. I hope they enjoy losing my 250+ dollars per year of revenue.
Well WotC are in a lose lose situation here. They could of done 4e Forgotten Realms, more to your liking, but then they would just have somebody else sayin they screwed it up. There is no way they can make everybody happy. I like the Forgotten Realms Period. Regardless of what edition it is.
The biggest threat was the trouble that DMs mind could develop for the players with a huge cast of characters and immersive lore to put the players in.
All of which was often embedded in an awful metaplot that I couldn't be bothered following or taking an interest in. Not to mention that I never found high level NPCs of any help to running my games at all. I much prefer the 4E realms in this regard.
There was nothing wrong with the realms, they were the perfect fantasy settings.
I can think of settings I think are better (or had periods where they were). FR is a good kitchen sink type fantasy setting, which is why I like the 4E Realms and still will (eventually) run games there.
All this did was take a vibrant world and turn it into another depressing place with no hope.
Try actually reading something that is truly depressing with no hope like Dark Sun for a proper comparison.
Now with spell plauge you have forced players hands and limited options instead of provided more.
Don't really think so and my players aren't finding any problems in this regard.
This is my last post. I hope FR 4.0 completely tanks and they fire those respondsible. I will be calling WoTC to let them know my complete disappointment. I hope they enjoy losing my 250+ dollars per year of revenue.
Well WotC are in a lose lose situation here. They could of done 4e Forgotten Realms, more to your liking, but then they would just have somebody else sayin they screwed it up. There is no way they can make everybody happy. I like the Forgotten Realms Period. Regardless of what edition it is.
Real nice. Good thing this is your last post. I can understand being put off by the new stuff (change is scary) but wishing ill will onto other (especially nowadays) is just bad form.
Maybe they would have done better with a different approach (there are definitely some changes I wouldn't have made), but that is hard to say now.
I have the feeling that most people who irrevocably ban the new Realms don't really read up on them (not all, but most).
There is still a lot of fun stuff in the Realms.
Gomez
Anyways, people, we have all had this discussion going for a year now. Lets avoid another revisit.
They didn't. If anything. magic is more alive than ever. The elves have reconnected to the feywild and acquired new powers, genasi are prevalent, pockets of wild magic exist all over (no dead magic zones!), and there are more ways to use magic than there ever where, now that the Weave is gone and (apparantly) no longer needed.
Well, let's be completely honest here. He is right, even though your points are "valid."
Magic used to be a lot more powerful in game. The changes generally made to 4E have dramatically reduced the power of the arcane classes, such that they are "brought back in line" (in theory) with other classes. Now, no one class "outweighs" another class, they are essentially "balanced" for lack of a better word. Wizards can no longer find a book of spells and add them to their repertoire. That's gone. Instead, wizards have a set number of powers, just like every other character. Magic is no longer special, there's no reward for having a "squishy" low hit point character survive low levels. Everyone gets the same rewards, essentially, just with a slightly different name to match their "job" in the game.
4E is all about knowing your "job" or role in the mechanics of fighting. 4E Realms has been changed to "fit" that general core mold. For many players, this decreases roleplaying and increases "role" (in the sense of a job) playing, i.e. crunch, mechanics, and knowing exactly how many spaces you move before you can cast your "at will" or "daily only" spell.
4E Realms has been flooded with Far Realm aberrations, genasi, dragonborn from a "sister planet" world, and a great deal of widespread damage was done by killing the goddess of magic and unleashing the Spellplague. And no matter what people want to believe, 4E Realms is most certainly a post-apocalyptic setting in this regard. Parts of the world are shattered, having been remade with the Spellplague. Entire planes were merged, or re-ordered. Civilization took a down-turn in most areas (Halruaa is completely destroyed), and nearly all of the heroes of the 2E and 3E ages (those we loved to read about in books) were either killed or died of old age. Heroes and Gods were beheaded, sometimes with an almost gleeful thought (Eilistraee - beheaded, Q'ilue - soul destroyed, Elminster - driven insane, most of Salvatore's characters dead or dispersed in some way). The gods themselves have been dramatically reduced, often with retcons, such that many deities in 1E-3E weren't "really" actual deities. Talos wasn't Talos, he was really Gruumsh in a costume. Hanali Celanil was really Sune all this time. It's ridiculous, and it destroys the widespread feel of cultures having their own distinct gods. I could keep going, but everyone is aware of the massive damage that was done to the Realms.
It's my opinion that there are more people "playing" in the Forgotten Realms now than there has ever been. Many folks, including myself, gained a reputation as lorelords by memorizing minutia of Realmslore but spent very little time actually playing the game. Like so many others here, I personally would have held back the scalpel a bit more if I were in charge of the transition, but what's done is done. Now, I have the opportunity to share articles with you on regions of the Realms that haven't been touched in twenty years. Life is good.
It's my impression that there are a lot fewer people playing 4E Realms. Life is good for the current design team, that is true. But I know many people who have not only stopped buying products but have returned items to the store because of their disappointment. Personally, I won't buy anything with a 4E stamp because of what designers have done - I show my distaste for the 4E Realms by voting with my money.
And yes, people have asked why I still post - because I spent a great deal of money on 1E through 3.5E products, and my friends and I still play 3.5E Realms (with a lot of tweaks, of course).
Frankly, the whole attitude of "what's done is done" is not only insulting to the fanbase but it's shockingly dismissive of people who (like the Original Poster) don't like the current vision of the Realms. If WotC brought back designers and authors who weren't into the dark, "points of light," post-apocalypse setting, I might be interested. But as it stands now, no sale here.
They didn't. If anything. magic is more alive than ever. The elves have reconnected to the feywild and acquired new powers, genasi are prevalent, pockets of wild magic exist all over (no dead magic zones!), and there are more ways to use magic than there ever where, now that the Weave is gone and (apparantly) no longer needed.
Well, let's be completely honest here. He is right, even though your points are "valid."
Magic used to be a lot more powerful in game. The changes generally made to 4E have dramatically reduced the power of the arcane classes, such that they are "brought back in line" (in theory) with other classes. Now, no one class "outweighs" another class, they are essentially "balanced" for lack of a better word. Wizards can no longer find a book of spells and add them to their repertoire. That's gone. Instead, wizards have a set number of powers, just like every other character. Magic is no longer special, there's no reward for having a "squishy" low hit point character survive low levels. Everyone gets the same rewards, essentially, just with a slightly different name to match their "job" in the game.
4E is all about knowing your "job" or role in the mechanics of fighting. 4E Realms has been changed to "fit" that general core mold. For many players, this decreases roleplaying and increases "role" (in the sense of a job) playing, i.e. crunch, mechanics, and knowing exactly how many spaces you move before you can cast your "at will" or "daily only" spell.
4E Realms has been flooded with Far Realm aberrations, genasi, dragonborn from a "sister planet" world, and a great deal of widespread damage was done by killing the goddess of magic and unleashing the Spellplague. And no matter what people want to believe, 4E Realms is most certainly a post-apocalyptic setting in this regard. Parts of the world are shattered, having been remade with the Spellplague. Entire planes were merged, or re-ordered. Civilization took a down-turn in most areas (Halruaa is completely destroyed), and nearly all of the heroes of the 2E and 3E ages (those we loved to read about in books) were either killed or died of old age. Heroes and Gods were beheaded, sometimes with an almost gleeful thought (Eilistraee - beheaded, Q'ilue - soul destroyed, Elminster - driven insane, most of Salvatore's characters dead or dispersed in some way). The gods themselves have been dramatically reduced, often with retcons, such that many deities in 1E-3E weren't "really" actual deities. Talos wasn't Talos, he was really Gruumsh in a costume. Hanali Celanil was really Sune all this time. It's ridiculous, and it destroys the widespread feel of cultures having their own distinct gods. I could keep going, but everyone is aware of the massive damage that was done to the Realms.
You say 'damage', I say 'improvements'.
Game balance is a good thing. Spellcasters were stupid-broken and needed to be reined in.
Changing the mechanics has no effect on roleplaying. If you choose to focus solely on mechanics and not roleplay, that's a personal decision and it has nothing to do with the game system.
Cleaning up the cosmology and getting rid of redundant gods was one of the things I liked most about the 4e transition. There were more gods in FR than Pokemon in Red/blue. A game setting does not need triple-digits worth of gods, especially when there's multiple war gods, multiple magic gods (and magic shouldn't even have a god, that's why it's arcane instead of divine).
You say 'damage', I say 'improvements'.
Game balance is a good thing. Spellcasters were stupid-broken and needed to be reined in.
Changing the mechanics has no effect on roleplaying. If you choose to focus solely on mechanics and not roleplay, that's a personal decision and it has nothing to do with the game system.
Cleaning up the cosmology and getting rid of redundant gods was one of the things I liked most about the 4e transition. There were more gods in FR than Pokemon in Red/blue. A game setting does not need triple-digits worth of gods, especially when there's multiple war gods, multiple magic gods (and magic shouldn't even have a god, that's why it's arcane instead of divine).
And yet, it's funny how people loved the Realms for 20+ years despite it being "broken" in your view. I guess all of those people were just wrong, and not really having fun all of that time. Game balance is the job of the DM, I thought... not a rulebook.
Multiple cultures, multiple gods, those were things that made the Realms rich and interesting. There was no redundancy there, just depth.
You say 'damage', I say 'improvements'.
Game balance is a good thing. Spellcasters were stupid-broken and needed to be reined in.
Changing the mechanics has no effect on roleplaying. If you choose to focus solely on mechanics and not roleplay, that's a personal decision and it has nothing to do with the game system.
Cleaning up the cosmology and getting rid of redundant gods was one of the things I liked most about the 4e transition. There were more gods in FR than Pokemon in Red/blue. A game setting does not need triple-digits worth of gods, especially when there's multiple war gods, multiple magic gods (and magic shouldn't even have a god, that's why it's arcane instead of divine).
And yet, it's funny how people loved the Realms for 20+ years despite it being "broken" in your view. I guess all of those people were just wrong, and not really having fun all of that time. Game balance is the job of the DM, I thought... not a rulebook.
Multiple cultures, multiple gods, those were things that made the Realms rich and interesting. There was no redundancy there, just depth.
It is kind of funny. I don't get what people saw in it, but hey, whatever. I didn't like it then, I'm willing to play in it now. And the fact that 3rd Edition was completely broken is very, very far from 'my view'.
There is such a thing as too much depth. When trying to keep track of everything means you feel like you're drowning, it's too much. FR needed streamlining and de-cluttering.
It's my impression that there are a lot fewer people playing 4E Realms.
You've never heard of LFR obviously. Of course, the argument could be that anyone who would play LFR would play a LE (Living Eberron) or a LDS (Living Dark Sun) or what have you. But technically speaking you are definitely incorrect here given LFR numbers are very healthy and if I can easily find people who want to play LFR in NZ, then it's definitely not a problem.
So this is automatically inherently incorrect, unless we discount LFR on some torturous reason to avoid conceding the point.
That's gone. Instead, wizards have a set number of powers, just like every other character. Magic is no longer special, there's no reward for having a "squishy" low hit point character survive low levels.
It takes a considerably bigger effort to kill characters in 4E than previous editions for the following reasons (mostly on the monster side of the table):
Characters only die at negative bloodied HP and death saving throws take over at 0 HP to negative bloodied. This provides more of a buffer against death.
Monsters lack absurd critical hit dice like previous editions, so you don't have to fear pulling out your books and making a new character every time the DM rolls a 20 with an Orc.
Characters have enough starting HP they are roughly the power level of a level 3 character.
As a result, there are no requirements to have "exponential" power growths or similar to reward a class being totally underpowered initially. That I have had a wizard in nearly every campaign I've run in 4E, that they are extremely effective at what they do and that they do not dominate the game are inherently good factors.
Everyone gets the same rewards, essentially, just with a slightly different name to match their "job" in the game.
Boo hoo I can't dominate the game as [insert magic user] and ensure nobody at the table has fun. Woe is the poor [insert magic user]. Woe.
I haven't even a hint of sympathy, because I find that when everyone at the table is incredibly powerful it leads to better teamwork, because despite each character being inherently powerful, they need one another completely and nobody dominates the game.
For many players, this decreases roleplaying and increases "role" (in the sense of a job) playing, i.e. crunch, mechanics, and knowing exactly how many spaces you move before you can cast your "at will" or "daily only" spell.
Complete nonsense IMO. Given that I see far more variety in characters than I ever did in 3rd edition - tell me how many parties you see that never had a divine or arcane magic user? Not many I would bet but in 4E a "Conan" style Martial Party with an abhorrent fear of magic is fully possible, functional and doesn't require me to change rules one bit. It works as written, out of the box. That's a triumph of the system to me and increases possibilities in roleplaying - making this complaint moot.
And no matter what people want to believe, 4E Realms is most certainly a post-apocalyptic setting in this regard
No it's not.
I'll tell you what, you go and read some 2E books on Dark Sun then get back to me on what "Post-apocalyptic" means. Some bits are destroyed and similar, but it is hardly post-apocalyptic and many regions can (and will) restore themselves over time.
and nearly all of the heroes of the 2E and 3E ages (those we loved to read about in books) were either killed or died of old age.
Some people loved, others found very obnoxious and counter-intuitive to a roleplaying setting.
Game balance is the job of the DM, I thought... not a rulebook.
When you have a crappy and inherently broken system, sure it is. When the system actually works the DMs job becomes less about fixing an inherently broken ruleset and instead writing creative stories, designing fun encounters, making new villains and building up the world/NPCs. I find having less time focusing on fixing poor rules is a good thing personally, because frankly if I wanted to rewrite a system to functional I would make it myself and not pay someone else. If I'm going to pay for something, I want it to work without me having to spend time fixing it.
Multiple cultures, multiple gods, those were things that made the Realms rich and interesting. There was no redundancy there, just depth
I disagree there wasn't redundancy (there most certainly was) and I disagree that there was as much depth as claimed (due to that redundancy). I find the 4E realms far more varied in what I can do than the original realms for a multitude of reasons, many being that some things which I particularly like are inherently a part of the 4E realms (Abolethic Sovereignty, Thay being an undead ruled blasted wasteland ripe for insertion of material from Open Grave and the fact some things I already liked are still there for more regular fantasy, like Cormyr).
You've never heard of LFR obviously. Of course, the argument could be that anyone who would play LFR would play a LE (Living Eberron) or a LDS (Living Dark Sun) or what have you. But technically speaking you are definitely incorrect here given LFR numbers are very healthy and if I can easily find people who want to play LFR in NZ, then it's definitely not a problem.
So this is automatically inherently incorrect, unless we discount LFR on some torturous reason to avoid conceding the point.
Just because I don't play LFR doesn't mean that I've never heard of it. My impression of LFR is that it is highly insular. And yes, there is no Living Eberron, no Living Dark Sun, no Living Greyhawk. What else would those people play except for Living Forgotten Realms? You cannot logically conclude, if LFR is the only "living" choice, that the entirety of all home-based Realms games are therefore "healthy" and everyone loves it. That's like saying, we only have milk for people to buy, so milk must really be loved!
It takes a considerably bigger effort to kill characters in 4E than previous editions for the following reasons (mostly on the monster side of the table):
Don't care. Rules don't matter. 1E was fine, 2E was okay if you could get into it, 3E and 3.5E were more than fine to play the game.
Boo hoo I can't dominate the game as [insert magic user] and ensure nobody at the table has fun. Woe is the poor [insert magic user]. Woe.
There's no need to be sarcastic. If you played in a game where any single character dominated the game, that's not a problem with the rules. It's a problem with the DM - and they problematic player.
I haven't even a hint of sympathy, because I find that when everyone at the table is incredibly powerful it leads to better teamwork, because despite each character being inherently powerful, they need one another completely and nobody dominates the game.
Some would argue that if everyone is really powerful, what's the point of playing?
I'll tell you what, you go and read some 2E books on Dark Sun then get back to me on what "Post-apocalyptic" means. Some bits are destroyed and similar, but it is hardly post-apocalyptic and many regions can (and will) restore themselves over time.
Halruaa is utterly gone. Netheril holds a thumb over ALL of Sembia, ready to crush it. Thay was destroyed by an army of undead. Calimshan... Damara... most of the Underdark... how many more do I need to mention?
It's definitely post-apocalyptic. To believe otherwise is merely handwaving.
When you have a crappy and inherently broken system, sure it is. When the system actually works the DMs job becomes less about fixing an inherently broken ruleset and instead writing creative stories, designing fun encounters, making new villains and building up the world/NPCs. I find having less time focusing on fixing poor rules is a good thing personally, because frankly if I wanted to rewrite a system to functional I would make it myself and not pay someone else. If I'm going to pay for something, I want it to work without me having to spend time fixing it.
It worked extremely well in multiple editions with many hundreds of thousands of players. Gygax said a long time ago that it isn't the rules that matter, and if players and DMs ever figure that out then designers would have a hard time selling rulebooks. He was absolutely right. The only people who care about definitive, all-encompassing, super-streamlined and overly balanced rules are rule lawyers and people who play primarily in tournaments. "But this RULE means I should have done 8 damage instead of 6!" Talk about "BooHoo"...
I disagree there wasn't redundancy (there most certainly was) and I disagree that there was as much depth as claimed (due to that redundancy). I find the 4E realms far more varied in what I can do than the original realms for a multitude of reasons, many being that some things which I particularly like are inherently a part of the 4E realms (Abolethic Sovereignty, Thay being an undead ruled blasted wasteland ripe for insertion of material from Open Grave and the fact some things I already liked are still there for more regular fantasy, like Cormyr).
Good for you, if you like this kind of thing. For myself and many others who dislike what was done, we will continue to spend our money elsewhere.
Just because I don't play LFR doesn't mean that I've never heard of it.
Then it makes your statement moot doesn't it?
And no, you don't get to claim nobody is playing 4E Realms and ignore LFR. That doesn't compute and your torturous arguments why we should pretend nobody is playing 4E realms, despite the fact plenty of people are should be ignored.
Unless you can prove LFR is not playing "4E Forgotten Realms" the point I will assume is conceded.
Don't care. Rules don't matter. 1E was fine, 2E was okay if you could get into it, 3E and 3.5E were more than fine to play the game.
I disagree, well actually I liked 1E and 2E but not 3E. 3E had even more of a lethality canyon than 2E did.
There's no need to be sarcastic. If you played in a game where any single character dominated the game, that's not a problem with the rules.
Nope, it's a problem with the rules. This is absolute 100% complete fact and is indisputable. Wizards and magic users in 3E were far above their other non-magic using counterparts in 3E. This is indeed a problem with the games rules.
Some would argue that if everyone is really powerful, what's the point of playing?
That logic doesn't even make any sense whatsoever actually. Do you know how many games - not just PnP - games you just completely said "There is no point in playing?". Like why would anyone want to play chess? Both teams are both capable of doing the same things, I mean, "What is the point of playing?".
Halruaa is utterly gone.
So?
How does that compare to Dark Sun?
Netheril holds a thumb over ALL of Sembia, ready to crush it.
So?
How does that compare to Dark Sun?
Thay was destroyed by an army of undead. Calimshan... Damara... most of the Underdark... how many more do I need to mention?
How does that compare to Dark Sun?
It's definitely post-apocalyptic. To believe otherwise is merely handwaving.
How does that compare to Dark Sun?
I mean, all you're showing me is you have no idea what you're talking about.
Go and read some Dark Sun and get back to me.
It worked extremely well in multiple editions with many hundreds of thousands of players.
Sure, "working" is a term one can apply but there was many houserules and permutations. I don't think I ever met anyone who ran 3rd edition from the books as it was without major problems.
Gygax said a long time ago that it isn't the rules that matter, and if players and DMs ever figure that out then designers would have a hard time selling rulebooks.
You know, let's go and see what Gygax thought of Third Edition Dungeons and Dragons shall we, seeing as you want to bring him up Therise.
GameSpy: Have you had a chance to play or even look at some of the current Dungeons & Dragons games?
Gygax: I've looked at them, yes, but I'm not really a fan. The new D&D is too rule intensive. It's relegated the Dungeon Master to being an entertainer rather than master of the game. It's done away with the archetypes, focused on nothing but combat and character power, lost the group cooperative aspect, bastardized the class-based system, and resembles a comic-book superheroes game more than a fantasy RPG where a player can play any alignment desired, not just lawful good.
Now, should I tell you what I really think?
So Therise, please stop mangling the mans opinions before you make yourself look more silly.
Before responding do check the date on the interview.
Good for you, if you like this kind of thing. For myself and many others who dislike what was done, we will continue to spend our money elsewhere.
That's good and I'll continue not to care, as will the many people who play LFR and enjoy it.
Waterdeep, The Dales, Tethyr, Amn, B's Gate, Myth Drannor, Everska, and many, many other still exist, trade with each other and flourish. Magic still is everywhere. Just like the time after Karsus the nature of magic has changed, but it exists in all things. Spellscarred places are just remodified Magic Dead/Wild Magic Zones of 2E. Far Realm stuff was always around (Beholders running with Zhents) and Aboleths in the seas (Elaines Drow novel series I think).
Anyway a setting is not Post Apoc unless you are scrounging for water, bullets, and supplies while fighting off hordes of .... well anything (Playing a Deadlands game right now and loving it all over again).
Good for you, Aegeri, you know how to be dismissive and insulting. We're all very impressed.
Now kindly remember that the term 'post-apocalyptic' means 'after an apocalypse', which is what the Spellplague in fact was. That it is not as much of a dungheap as the god-awful Dark Sun setting is utterly irrelevant. 4e FR is, in fact, a post-apocalyptic world. Trying to pretend it isn't because it's not as blasted and dead as Dark Sun is naive at best and insulting at worst.
There isn't enough information to declare FR more or less played than before. We have numbers only for people who are registered for LFR, and that loosely at best, unless you can point me to some exact statistics somewhere. People are, of course, playing LFR, as it's the only current 'Living x' campaign. This says nothing for or against how popular Forgotten Realms itself as a setting is. It could be that if Living Eberron started tommorow people would abandon LFR in droves. It could be that if LE started tommorow it would fail because people love 4E FR so much. I will note here that the number one complaint about LFR I hear is that there's little to no roleplaying involved. And of course we have no numbers at all for home games, either for 4e or previous editions. There is no way at all of ascertaining which is more popular. Anecdotally, since I started playing PbP games I've only seen one 4e FR 'home' game, and I don't know anyone in real life who plays 4E FR - They also don't play any other edition of FR. Basically, nothing can be stated. There's no 'victory' to claim. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.
Staying out of edition wars, those are the pettiest arguments of all and I don't feel like it tonight.
Then it makes your statement moot doesn't it?
Psst... "moot" means that something's open to debate, that it's arguable.
And no, you don't get to claim nobody is playing 4E Realms and ignore LFR. That doesn't compute and your torturous arguments why we should pretend nobody is playing 4E realms, despite the fact plenty of people are should be ignored.
When did I say that nobody is playing 4E Realms? I didn't. I said my impression is that a lot fewer were playing 4E than 3.5E. Given that this is something that I see for myself, it is completely accurate.
Unless you can prove LFR is not playing "4E Forgotten Realms" the point I will assume is conceded.
It is a non sequitur to claim that "since people play LFR" it follows that "people love the new FR." That's what I actually said... not what you're claiming I said.
Nope, it's a problem with the rules. This is absolute 100% complete fact and is indisputable. Wizards and magic users in 3E were far above their other non-magic using counterparts in 3E. This is indeed a problem with the games rules.
I love it when people claim that something based on subjective opinion is "100% fact!" You're arguing about opinions here, not facts.
How does that compare to Dark Sun?
Honestly, why the intent focus on Dark Sun? I've seen it, I decided not to buy it. Not only because that setting is oppresively boring, mind you.
I mean, all you're showing me is you have no idea what you're talking about.
I know what I like, I know what I don't like. In that regard, I know exactly what I'm talking about. Dark Sun is only relevant in the sense that I also decided not to buy it.
Go and read some Dark Sun and get back to me.
I did, and I didn't like it either. End of story.
You know, let's go and see what Gygax thought of Third Edition Dungeons and Dragons shall we, seeing as you want to bring him up Therise.
Hey, I'm in agreement with Gygax on that quote also. 3.5E was too rule intensive. So what? He also is known for the quote I gave earlier. In fact, the quote you've given is even MORE of a slam against 4E, because it's incredibly superhero-ish and comic book-ish.
There is absolutely nothing about FR that in any way makes it post-apocalyptic. Nothing. There are far too many areas of civilization and (ironically in this context) far too many areas that didn't get ruined/affected at all. A few token places certain people are overly fanboyish over does not mean the entire world is post-apocalyptic period.
Good for you, Aegeri, you know how to be dismissive and insulting. We're all very impressed.
This is all once around the mulburry bush correcting the same incorrect statements over and over for me. My lack of patience perhaps shows a bit too much.
Now kindly remember that the term 'post-apocalyptic' means 'after an apocalypse', which is what the Spellplague in fact was.
"Post-apocalyptic" generally implies more than just being after an apocalypse as more specifically it refers to a specific genre more than this. To claim that FR fits the standard PA genre is really stretching the definition beyond breaking point, especially because the world has recovered from it due to the 100 year time jump - completely making your point irrelevant. Nothing about FR is Post-apocalyptic period compared to actual post-apocalyptic settings.
Trying to pretend it isn't because it's not as blasted and dead as Dark Sun is naive at best and insulting at worst.
No it's not, I'm using Dark Sun as a good example of "Post-apocalyptic" settings. FR has nothing in common with Dark Sun or even other post-apocalyptic settings. Therefore FR is not post-apocalyptic period.
There isn't enough information to declare FR more or less played than before.
Why don't you take that up with Therise then? I never made any such claim so why criticize me for something I'm not making an argument about?
Would you care to point this out to Therise who made the argument and not me?
This says nothing for or against how popular Forgotten Realms itself as a setting is. It could be that if Living Eberron started tommorow people would abandon LFR in droves.
Read my first post. This was in response to Therise, pointing out her statement was incorrect because as much as people on this board hate it, people playing LFR are still playing FR. Please do take up this argument with Therise as she made the claim originally less people were playing FR now though. You made a good point, you should make it to the person who made the argument originally don't you think?
Then it makes your statement moot doesn't it?
Psst... "moot" means that something's open to debate, that it's arguable.
Correct. I'm stating your opinion that there are less people playing is far less from sorted and so definitive as you claim. BTW thanks for the laugh that because you see less 4E realms played than 3.5 that means anything. You are aware I'm about to claim the complete opposite, that I know nobody who plays 3.5 realms now compared to 4E right?
Your argument is so worthless as you can provide no substance to back it up anywhere, yet where we do know there is a healthy player population is LFR and yet you try to dismiss it.
Interesting indeed.
Edit: BTW I have no data either way but I don't care. Enough people play 4E realms that I can find people to play with if it is a regular campaign or LFR. Either way that's all I care about and I'll only care what you think when I can't find people to play LFR or a standard 4E FR game. Then I'll think "Maybe you have a point". Given I have no shortage of people wanting to play, I find your point hard to take seriously.
It is a non sequitur to claim that "since people play LFR" it follows that "people love the new FR." That's what I actually said... not what you're claiming I said.
I didn't claim this anywhere, where is your quote "People love the new FR" said by me? I said people are playing in the 4E Realms and pointed to LFR. I never said they loved the realms or similar, merely they were playing it to contradict your original statement you are now desperately backpeddling from.
I love it when people claim that something based on subjective opinion is "100% fact!" You're arguing about opinions here, not facts.
It's a fact and objectively a fact.
Piece A can move 1 square.
Piece B can move 2 squares.
Piece C instantly wins the game.
Is piece C objectively and factually more powerful than Piece A and Piece B?
Honestly, why the intent focus on Dark Sun? I've seen it, I decided not to buy it. Not only because that setting is oppresively boring, mind you.
It's a genuine, actual post-apocalyptic setting whereas FR is not. Anyone would agree Dark Sun meets the defintion of a post-apocalyptic setting and genre. FR does not in any way shape or form.
Hey, I'm in agreement with Gygax on that quote also. 3.5E was too rule intensive. So what? He also is known for the quote I gave earlier. In fact, the quote you've given is even MORE of a slam against 4E, because it's incredibly superhero-ish and comic book-ish.
It's also less rules intensive and simulationist than 3E (as is often complained about WRT 4E), which is more in line with what Gygax pointed out isn't it?
Breathe everyone, it is a game of make believe.
anyway
the Realms have become better and worst, both at once and neither at the same time.
the spell plague never happened
Now kindly remember that the term 'post-apocalyptic' means 'after an apocalypse', which is what the Spellplague in fact was. That it is not as much of a dungheap as the god-awful Dark Sun setting is utterly irrelevant. 4e FR is, in fact, a post-apocalyptic world. Trying to pretend it isn't because it's not as blasted and dead as Dark Sun is naive at best and insulting at worst.
Exactly, completely correct on all points.
There isn't enough information to declare FR more or less played than before. We have numbers only for people who are registered for LFR, and that loosely at best, unless you can point me to some exact statistics somewhere. People are, of course, playing LFR, as it's the only current 'Living x' campaign. This says nothing for or against how popular Forgotten Realms itself as a setting is.
Also absolutely correct, and said much more succinctly than I did.
It could be that if Living Eberron started tommorow people would abandon LFR in droves. It could be that if LE started tommorow it would fail because people love 4E FR so much.
Also very true. Right now, as it's the only "living" option, there's no way to know.
I will note here that the number one complaint about LFR I hear is that there's little to no roleplaying involved. And of course we have no numbers at all for home games, either for 4e or previous editions.
Yep, I hear the same complaint all the time. It ranges from "we RP a lot less" to "eh, it's all about the rules now, and what exact movements one can make, with no RP at all." And you're right about no one having actual data for home-based games. My personal observation, which is fully in line with the above, is that a lot fewer people are playing 4E than did 3.5E. Other peoples' observations may vary, certainly.
There is no way at all of ascertaining which is more popular. Anecdotally, since I started playing PbP games I've only seen one 4e FR 'home' game, and I don't know anyone in real life who plays 4E FR - They also don't play any other edition of FR. Basically, nothing can be stated. There's no 'victory' to claim. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.
Yep, that's similar to my experience. I know only of one 4E game, and it stopped not that long ago. Again, it's just a personal observation, but I do live in a large city with a lot of other gaming going on.
Exactly, completely correct on all points.
No it's not.
Here is a definition of post-apocalyptic settings:
Apocalyptic fiction is a sub-genre of science fiction that is concerned with the end of civilization either through nuclear war, plague, or some other general disaster. Post-apocalyptic fiction is set in a world or civilization after such a disaster. The time frame may be immediately after the catastrophe, focusing on the travails or psychology of survivors, or considerably later, often including the theme that the existence of pre-catastrophe civilization has been forgotten (or mythologized). Post-apocalyptic stories often take place in an agrarian, non-technological future world, or a world where only scattered elements of technology remain. There is a considerable degree of blurring between this form of science fiction and that which deals with false utopias or dystopic societies.
Civilization in FR has not ended. The pre-catastrophe civilizations are still there, they are not forgotten because the majority of them survived and there are not "scattered elements" of civilization/magic and similar remaining.
FR fails on this on every single account, making your point inherently and by definition wrong.
Edit: Strictly put, Dark Sun doesn't even fit the definition stringently as it's not inherently Science Fiction, but I can argue Dark Sun meets every single other criteria and general set up for Post-Apocalyptic fiction in general. FR definitely cannot.
Yep, I hear the same complaint all the time.
What you hear and "reality" are often not connected in my experience.
It ranges from "we RP a lot less" to "eh, it's all about the rules now, and what exact movements one can make, with no RP at all."
I love these statements, not a single fact behind them and made oh so authoratively based on what you "heard". Wonderfully convincing argument there.
Just because Aegeri and others like to see it that way, doesn't mean it's so.
It is. FR is not post-apocalyptic by definition (see above). FR is in fact in recovery and not in decline in the books, with empires expanding and the world is not imploding. Day to day life and magic is restored post-spellplague and I don't see the world dying anytime soon.
You are welcome to be completely wrong with them because FR does not fit the definition of post-apocalyptic fiction. You can argue you can redefine what post-apocalyptic fiction is and how it is defined, but you cannot argue that FR is post-apocalyptic fiction because it simply fails to meet the criteria. Some parts of it were destroyed, but that does not make it post-apocalyptic unless you ran a game in those destroyed regions. But the setting as a whole is not, whereas something like Dark Sun almost certainly is in every single way.
Exactly, completely correct on all points.
No it's not.
Here is a definition of post-apocalyptic settings:Apocalyptic fiction is a sub-genre of science fiction that is concerned with the end of civilization either through nuclear war, plague, or some other general disaster. Post-apocalyptic fiction is set in a world or civilization after such a disaster. The time frame may be immediately after the catastrophe, focusing on the travails or psychology of survivors, or considerably later, often including the theme that the existence of pre-catastrophe civilization has been forgotten (or mythologized). Post-apocalyptic stories often take place in an agrarian, non-technological future world, or a world where only scattered elements of technology remain. There is a considerable degree of blurring between this form of science fiction and that which deals with false utopias or dystopic societies.
Civilization in FR has not ended. The pre-catastrophe civilizations are still there, they are not forgotten because the majority of them survived and there are not "scattered elements" of civilization/magic and similar remaining.
FR fails on this on every single account, making your point inherently and by definition wrong.
By your definition given above, 4E Realms is, in fact, post-Apocalyptic. I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to see this, but let's review:
- the Spellplague was a massive disaster that catastrophically affected not only Faerun but effected a rearrangement of the planes. For example, Dweomerheart was utterly destroyed, and several gods were killed in the destruction. Many, many places were destroyed or altered or damaged on Faerun. Abeir and Toril -merged- and damaged, swapped or altered many locations. It meets your criteria by definition.
- reduction to an agrarian society (after a good level of technology was seen) is not a requirement (your definition says "often" but that isn't the same as "always"). Would you call Dark Sun a completely agrarian setting with no technology or magic?
- the complete "end of civilization" is not necessary either, only a massive catastrophe that threatens the end of civilization and does a massive amount of world-spanning damage. In Mad Max, civilization is in recovery, people use cars and build new things based on old machines. In many movies of the post-Apoc genre, civilization is reduced to "points of light" (sound familiar?) in a vast, untamed, deadly wilderness.
Yep, I hear the same complaint all the time.
What you hear and "reality" are often not connected in my experience.
If you mean that my experience and your experience do not match exactly, that's to be expected. I see what I see, though, and I'm not attempting to say that it's anything other than my observation. As I have said repeatedly, other peoples' experiences may vary.
It ranges from "we RP a lot less" to "eh, it's all about the rules now, and what exact movements one can make, with no RP at all."
I love these statements, not a single fact behind them and made oh so authoratively based on what you "heard". Wonderfully convincing argument there.
It is what it is. It's my experience and what I see. I'm making an observation, not trying to convince you personally.
By your definition given above, 4E Realms is, in fact, post-Apocalyptic. I'm not sure why it's so hard for you to see this, but let's review:
- the Spellplague was a massive disaster that catastrophically affected not only Faerun but effected a rearrangement of the planes. It meets your criteria by definition.
Nope, because it was selective in its effects and did not devastate everything in the realms or the planes (this is a strawman of your own construction).
For example, where did Cormyr go? Oh wait.
Where did the Sword Coast go? Oh wait.
Amn?
Netheril (oddly one of the heaviest magic users pre-spellplague)?
So no, I'm not buying your argument as much of the realms was untouched as some of it wasn't. A few areas are certainly destroyed, but there is nothing that warrants your claim FR is post-apocalyptic at all. Civilization is not destroyed as a good chunk of it actually suvived and new civilizations arrived. I notice you decided to skip that part of it as well to fit this tortured argument you're making.
In the end 4E FR does not fit a single one of the definitions given, it can fit it entirely in isolated places (I have not disputed it) but as a whole 4E FR is not post-apocalyptic. Dark Sun is post apocalyptic, as you bring it up Mad Max is as well but I can point to the numerous differences in settings between Dark Sun/Mad Max that demonstrate why they are post apocalyptic settings and FR isn't easily.
Would you call Dark Sun a completely agrarian setting with no technology or magic?
Magic destroys the world with its use and is widely hated, their technology level is poor as they have little metal and make do with things like obsidian weapons.
So, yes it definitely fits the defintion.
4E FR does not.
Edit: As another really popular debate topic, Dark Sun even relies on the more frequently "Science Fiction" power of Psionics instead of Magic for this reason. Bringing Dark Sun more in line with Apocalyptic Science Fiction than FR.
If you mean that my experience and your experience do not match exactly, that's to be expected. I see what I see, though, and I'm not attempting to say that it's anything other than my observation. As I have said repeatedly, other peoples' experiences may vary.
It's a worthless argument is what I'm saying, much like how I can point out to you that I have no problems finding 4E games or players is equally a worthless argument.
It is what it is. It's my experience and what I see. I'm making an observation, not trying to convince you personally.
Yes, I know the Toast King and he lives on the Moon.
Just an observation, not trying to convince you personally.
Exactly, completely correct on all points.
No it's not.
Here is a definition of post-apocalyptic settings:
First off, cite your source before you get all high and mighty. For all we know this could come from your very own board on the subject.
Second, you have gone from opinionated to strait out insulting. I'll ask nicely that you change your tune a bit. While Therise may accentuate her points--she doesn't come out to insult people. You, on the other hand, seem to be a bit offended by being challenged and are quickly crossing the line.
So, please--and I ask (again) nicely--lets be civil.
Exactly, completely correct on all points.
No it's not.
Here is a definition of post-apocalyptic settings:
First off, cite your source before you get all high and mighty. For all we know this could come from your very own board on the subject.
Try the links, all of which go to Wikipedia, which is also where I got it from coincidentally :P
Second, you have gone from opinionated to strait out insulting. I'll ask nicely that you change your tune a bit.
You are not a moderator here and should not presume to act as one. I am not being insulting, pointing out that a poster is making an incredulous argument devoid of facts is not being insulting. I have in no way insulted Therise, but instead attacked her arguments as being without merit or evidence. Given she does not support her points like claiming that few people play 4E FR, without any support, it is not insulting to demonstrate the continual lack of evidence or facts presented to support an argument.
You, on the other hand, seem to be a bit offended by being challenged and are quickly crossing the line.
If you have a problem with the way I am presenting my arguments, you may feel free to do what every other user does and use the report button. Do not attempt to play moderator when you are not one.
Spellplague: The Wailing Years by Brian James
(some excerpts) -
"...The cerulean storm and its aftereffects would become known in later days as the Spellplague. Despite its name, the Spellplague was no mere magical affliction. The Spellplague burned fiercest in its first year, but flareups and indirect repercussions continued for decades, irrevocably altering whole regions while leaving others completely unscathed. Whole countries vanished in earthquakes, fires, and windstorms, inexplicably replaced with peoples and lands from a world beyond our own. Even the starry constellations in the Sea of Night seemingly rearranged themselves in the heavens above..."
"1385 DR (Year of Blue Fire)
The Spellplague: An unthinkable catastrophe ensues when Cyric, aided and abetted by Shar, murders Mystra in Dweomerheart. The plane itself disintegrates at once, destroying Savras and sending the gods Azuth and Velsharoon reeling into the endless Astral Sea. Without Mystra to govern the Weave, magic bursts its bonds all across Toril and the surrounding planes and runs wild. In Faerûn, this event is known as the Spellplague. Thousands of mages are driven insane or destroyed, and the very substance of the world becomes mutable beneath veils of azure fire that dance across the skies by night or by day.
- Where once stood the realm of Sespech, the Golden Plains, and the Nagalands, the Spellplague reveals a surreal landscape breathtaking in its beauty, grandeur, and changeability. For the next century, active Spellplague cavorts on this territory called the Plaguewrought Lands, contorting terrain, natural law, and the flesh of any creature that dares enter.
- Cormyr is struck hard, but not so violently as many other nations. Roughly one third of all Wizards of War are slain, driven mad, or simply have gone missing in the year following Mystra's death.
1386 DR (Year of the Halfling's Lament)
A portion of Toril's sibling world Abeir violently exchanges places with large sections of Chondath and western Chessenta. Displaced genasi from the Abeiran land of Shyr quickly set about creating a kingdom of their own.
- The former expanse of the Sea of Fallen Stars is altered when wide portions of the landscape collapse into the Underdark. When the sea level reaches its new equilibrium, the average drop in water level measured nearly 50 feet. The waters of the Vilhon Reach were similarly drained, uncovering several drowned ruins from ancient Jhaamdath."
And that's really only the start of the descriptions. It was an apocalyptic event, and the designers meant for it to be one. Yeah, it's 100 years later, but there are still active areas of spellplague and everything is changed into Points of Light. This is the Realms Shattering Event that surpasses all other Realms Shattering Events, in my opinion.
Despite its name, the Spellplague was no mere magical affliction. The Spellplague burned fiercest in its first year, but flareups and indirect repercussions continued for decades, irrevocably altering whole regions while leaving others completely unscathed.
This is the key argument here, because the Spellplague is a massive event (this is indisputable) but it does not make Forgotten Realms a Post-Apocalyptic setting. A lot of civilizations, some for reasons uttelry incomprehensible to anyone but the designers at the time I will add, got through perfectly unscathed while others did not.
The comparison I will draw is if I blow up a building on your street does it mean you now live in a destroyed neighbourhood? This is essentially the argument you and Therise are making - but it doesn't fly at all. Instead what happened in FR is every 2nd building got torn down and replaced with another, weirder building with inhabitants from another place you don't recognize. Some buildings got demolished permanently and nobody has been there since. Other buildings got torn down, set on fire and then turned into a landfill, which was then set on fire and got a nuclear waste dump built on it.
The point here is that despite the bits that got blown up, it's still by definition a neighborhood because a good chunk of the old buildings are still there, most got rebuilt in the one hundred years since the demolition crews went in and some are entirely new developments. New ownership, a good chunk of the place still there and similar does not make it destroyed by definition - even if there are some buildings still missing.
The problem isn't that the Spellplague is an apocalypse, it's if its effects rendered the Forgotten Realms a post-apocalyptic setting. Given that they rebuilt much of places that were damaged (like Waterdeep, although oddly Neverwinter was destroyed and never mentioned again for some odd reason), civilization is hardly in decline in the post-spellplague years (quite the opposite given the aggressive expansionist nature of many Empires post-spellplague) it just doesn't fit to call it "Post-apocalyptic" at all. Semantics can indeed be used to do that, just like I could claim tearing down one building "destroyed the neighborhood" but it doesn't make it correct when you go and actually look at said neighborhood.
Also, I don't view the replacement of some previously bland places (IMO, some people love Fantasy Egypt of course but I never saw the value in it) with some new and somewhat interesting ones as a bad thing myself. Given they aren't just regions of destroyed dirt and are a functional empires in their own right, I don't see what fits the whole "Decline of Civilization" requirement of a post-apocalyptic setting period.
I am really hoping that they decide to salvage the damage and come up with a storyline where Shar created an alternate reality using peoples Shadows. That none of the changes to the realms really occured and that while not dead many people are traumatized by the changes. Forgotten Realms is not supposed to be a dead realm like some of the other models. Its supposed to be a Vibrant complex world full of wonder at every corner. I fell in love with the realms and the only thing they needed to do what release an updated 4E book, create a book of Maps that matched up with the 4E campaign book, and perhaps added some rumours of wars coming up. Instead they dropped an atomic bomb on the world killing anyone interesting. All these characters who had stories to tell are now dead, crazy or missing. Instead they forced this dark Demon laden world with shadows and.... Its just all wrong, WRONG setting, WRONG WRONG.... I am so frustrated that all the stories I have been reading for years are tainted with this garbage. When I finished the new Drittz book I almost punched a wall.
To be honest i dont mind the changes from 3e to 4e. Most of it makes some sense, and theres ussually an explanation there, why it changed. I was more upset over the 2e-3e transition. They changed too much stuff and didnt bother trying to explain why things changed, it was just changed. I expect things to change, the Realms arent the same it was when the grey box was first released, as it should be, but if a major change takes place, like Elves using a totally diferent alphabet all of a sudden, It should be explained in some way. Sure its just a fantasy world, but little things like that really bug me.
The Realms are a post-apocalyptic setting in the sense of what the Spellplague did (see Daenaan's spot-on post above), but one must also remember that the setting itself does not pay homage to the demeanor implied by the term "post-apocalyptic", i.e., the Realms presented in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide are not a world like unto Mad Max, much less a points of light setting.
Time has passed. Things have settled. Whole nations, races and regions have moved on and for the most part recovered.
Again, time is the distinction here.
I'm now going to dissect an earlier post describing the 4E rules. This isn't meant as being trollish or snarky. I should say that I couch my statements in legitimate DMing experience, having run a 3E Realms game for ten years and also a 4E Realms game for approximately two years.
Magic used to be a lot more powerful in game. The changes generally made to 4E have dramatically reduced the power of the arcane classes, such that they are "brought back in line" (in theory) with other classes. Now, no one class "outweighs" another class, they are essentially "balanced" for lack of a better word. Wizards can no longer find a book of spells and add them to their repertoire. That's gone. Instead, wizards have a set number of powers, just like every other character. Magic is no longer special, there's no reward for having a "squishy" low hit point character survive low levels. Everyone gets the same rewards, essentially, just with a slightly different name to match their "job" in the game.
4E is all about knowing your "job" or role in the mechanics of fighting. 4E Realms has been changed to "fit" that general core mold. For many players, this decreases roleplaying and increases "role" (in the sense of a job) playing, i.e. crunch, mechanics, and knowing exactly how many spaces you move before you can cast your "at will" or "daily only" spell.
The changes to the game did not permanently reduce the power of the arcane classes. Instead, there have been tradeoffs and changes in how wizards learn their spells, the addition of rituals and how wizards cast spells via the at-will, encounter and daily game mechanics.
First, it's an established fact that spellcasters can cast more spells per day in 4E than they ever could as Wizards or Sorcerers in 3E. The most cursory reading of the Player's Handbook reveals a wizard may learn and then cast Magic Missile at will, for as long as he or she cares to.
What's more, the other classes have had their power increased to match the arcane spell casters. A Paragon or Epic level wizard is still a mean damage dealing son of a gun. It's just that so (now) are the other classes at the same levels, via their own class-based powers and abilities.
Everything scales, but nothing is dumbed down. FYI 3E measured character movement in feet. That 4E measures character movement in 5' squares isn't exactly a new, intrusive mechanic.
In the 4E game, Wizards keep their daily and utility spells as well as their rituals in their spellbooks, and can still find scrolls and books of spells and rituals to use later. It's correct that if a wizard finds a book of spells they can't add these found spells to their own spellbook to memorize and cast later, but such books still have value because a wizard can use the found spellbook once he or she becomes high enough level to add more spells to his or her repertoire (and wizards can still to a degree know more spells than they can cast, see PHB page 158, which means they have a bigger list of powers to choose from than other characters).
And unlike before, wizards aren’t "stuck" with lower level, useless spells as they advance in level. They may overwrite them as they advance in level.
I should say that at the 2007 Gen Con Realms seminar, I asked Rich Baker and the other game designer attendees how the 4E system would handle the incredible variety of magic found in the Realms. Rich looked over to Chris Perkins (the bald designer off to one side?) who shrugged noncommittally and said, "Rituals?"
Suffice it to say I wasn't impressed. Fast forward to now and I understand how 4E works. The flavor is certainly different, but their is a flavor. Within 4E's framework the idea that magic is "no longer special" doesn't actually hold any water once you play the game and understand how magic is acquired and how to work magic into your encounters (through treasure, traps, hanging spells, found spellbooks, monster encounters, player powers, etc...).
In my opinion the concept of spell rarity (through rituals) has been returned to the game. I like this change back to how things were in 2E.
On to roleplaying: 4E has codified the concept of a "role" for each character more than ever before. I say this with the firm recognition that as far back as 1E, players clearly understood each class had a role to play. If you were a fighter, you hacked things. If you were a cleric, you healed, then hacked things. If you were a wizard, you zapped things and stayed the hell away from combat if you could. If a thief (yep, that's what they called rogues back in the day) you backstabbed, hid and picked pockets.
The concept of character roles is by no means new.
There is no truth to the notion that 4E's game mechanics "decrease roleplaying" for "many players" by continuing to focus on mechanics. Put another way: The 4E combat mechanics don't affect roleplaying any more or less than the concept of game combat in general affects roleplaying in all other editions of the game.
The meat of every edition of the D&D rules are devoted to combat and spells, because the game revolves in large part around combat. Players have been into the combat mechanics of the game for as long as the game has existed.
What the 4E combat rules do is try to make combat as fun as possible for everyone by encouraging teamwork and giving each class several options on what to do in a fight. In 3E and earlier editions, you either swung your weapon or cast a spell or used a magic item (if you had one). Now you can do all this and more, with each action potentially having other effects besides racking up damage on a foe.
This is a massive step forward from the time when spellcasters ran out of spells and could do naught but watch their companions hack away at a foe.
The mechanic of Skill Challenges, it should be said, make roleplaying mandatory.
My players still roleplay. The game still has NPCs and monsters the characters need to talk to, intimidate and deal with. The PHB (page 14, step 9) still asks players to, "..flesh out your character with details about your personality, appearance, and beliefs."
There's no issue here.
Back to post-apocalyptic for a moment: The Realms were always filled with a host of monsters, and have seen "invasions" or "incursions" of monsters and other humanoid races throughout the millennia of its recorded history. (How did Orcs first come to the Realms, eh?) The Realms have always been changing in this way and have seen many a kingdom and realm come and go.
What's different now is that the mother of all these changes happened all at once and in the shared part of the Realms timeline we all play(ed) in. For those of us already intimately familiar with the Realms this means it affects the Realms we know "now" as opposed to having it all be part of a millennia old, established framework-to-play-in history.
For new players, though, it's all back history.
Even if we assume that the 4th edition FR is post-apocalyptic, however, we should also recognize that the Realms have been through this stuff before. A lot. Post-apocalypse is one of the major flavor elements of the setting. It's even in the name! There are realms out there that thrived and were destroyed, and they are many.
So, yeah, you can say that the 4th edition Realms are post-apocalyptic, but if you don't like that you maybe should ask yourself why it never bothered you before. Obviously, it isn't the post-apocalyptic theme that is the burr under your saddle.
So, yeah, you can say that the 4th edition Realms are post-apocalyptic, but if you don't like that you maybe should ask yourself why it never bothered you before. Obviously, it isn't the post-apocalyptic theme that is the burr under your saddle.
I'm not presuming to speak for anyone, but I am going to venture a guess that it's this:
What's different now is that the mother of all these changes happened all at once and in the shared part of the Realms timeline we all play(ed) in. For those of us already intimately familiar with the Realms this means it affects the Realms we know "now" as opposed to having it all be part of a millennia old, established framework-to-play-in history.For new players, though, it's all back history.
If you're an older player or DM, those people bought a lot of books and supplements and all. For the designers to turn their backs on people who supported a company (or in this case, a product line) for decades and destroy that, they laregly betrayed their fanbase. What was popular and sold well, it's all been replaced.
New players, yeah they either like it, or they completely don't care.
Either way, it's a word of warning to people who do like the new stuff that WotC can and will change everything at the drop of a hat, regardless of fans or prior sales. They're willing to burn everything made popular by the previous design team, and refit the shell in whatever way they see fit for their own future books and supplements.
Daenaan, you haven't actually changed the argument any. For example you bolded one section while ignoring the other, that I will bold:Despite its name, the Spellplague was no mere magical affliction. The Spellplague burned fiercest in its first year, but flareups and indirect repercussions continued for decades, irrevocably altering whole regions while leaving others completely unscathed.
This is the key argument here, because the Spellplague is a massive event (this is indisputable) but it does not make Forgotten Realms a Post-Apocalyptic setting. A lot of civilizations, some for reasons uttelry incomprehensible to anyone but the designers at the time I will add, got through perfectly unscathed while others did not.
The only thing that's truly clear in your logic is that you've convinced yourself. Are you really going to tell someone in a half-bombed-out neighborhood, as they sit in the burning shell of their own house, that their neighborhood wasn't destroyed? Because the arguer's house is untouched?
That's hilarious, but not very logical. Points for effort, though!
You know, let's go and see what Gygax thought of Third Edition Dungeons and Dragons shall we, seeing as you want to bring him up Therise.
Hey, I'm in agreement with Gygax on that quote also. 3.5E was too rule intensive. So what? He also is known for the quote I gave earlier. In fact, the quote you've given is even MORE of a slam against 4E, because it's incredibly superhero-ish and comic book-ish.
No kidding. When I skimmed that quote my first assumption was that it was Gygax on 4e. It wasn't until I went back and reread that I realised it was supposed to be about 3e.
If you're an older player or DM, those people bought a lot of books and supplements and all. For the designers to turn their backs on people who supported a company (or in this case, a product line) for decades and destroy that, they laregly betrayed their fanbase. What was popular and sold well, it's all been replaced.
I dont think the designers turned their backs on us. And all that old stuff still amplies, that stuff did happen, sure its all in the past, but the point is that it did happen, the timeline continues on. They didnt really destroy anything, they changed things, but after a 100 years things are going to be different. the Realms is always changing, thats what i love about it. I remember when people were bitching about the transition from 1e to 2e (what! my assassin is dead!?), or the one from 2e to 3e (the worst one in my opinion) and of course the Spellplague, love it or hate it there it is. But nothing is forcing you to use the new timeline, you could still play the Realms pre Time of Troubles, or During the Age of Netheril or what ever, its all up to you.
I didn't realize there was a 4.0 source book for Forgotten Realms. I just got to take a look and I have become completely saddened..... I literally feel dead inside, I can't believe the changes they made to my favorite fantasy universe. It is just another Darksun, Ravenloft, Eberron depressing dying world now... Before it was a complex vibrant world where AO made sure the balance was left intact. The Avatar story arc was all the dying magic I needed to see. I know I shouldn't be taking this so personal but literally my favorite book to read at night time is the Forgotten Realms 3.0+ sourcebook. The real world is depressing and without hope. That is what Forgotten Realms is... no longer an escape. If I do end up running a campaign again it most likely will be in 3.5.
Literally? You sure you know what that word means?
Sorry, pet peeve.
More importantly, FR is nothing like Dark Sun. It is not a dying world. Magic is still alive, Mystra is dead. Magic has restabilized after a hundred years, the spellplague becomes less and less of a problem all the time, with only a few real plague lands, and people have mostly rebuilt, in terms of individual settlements, and common folk being able to go about their lives in peace.
The world is more wild now, once you get away from civilization, and there's more wilderness between settlements, but that doesn't mean there's a lack of hope.
In fact, hope is thriving in the Realms. Myth Drannor is restored, there is an orcish kingdom that is not at war with any of the "good guys". It's an exciting world.
I would like to spin your comment on its head and say its the poor choices made with the Forgotten Realms campaign that have driven players away. I feel like I saw someone run up to the Mona Lisa and start slashing it with a knife. For me my best suggestion is to make Spell Plague and alternate storyline and change it back to the way it was.
IMO, the old FR got boring after a couple campaigns. Fun to read about, not fun to play in. After a while, the only way for me to run or play FR and really enjoy it, throughout a campaign, was to have some kind of massive war/cosmic conflict involved. Either as backdrop, ie "the world has recently been torn by war" or as the conflict of a campaign.
I also have seen 0 evidence to suggest that the changes are driving away more people than they are bringing in.
Well im not trying to insult you, and im guessing that you made this thread to discuss the topic, which i am trying to do. I'm not saying that I like everything they did, but to go back now and change it would be against what the Realms is supposed to be. The Realms are always changing and all that. But you dont have to use their timeline, Its your Realms, you can change what ever you dont like in your campaign. I personaly like the Spellplauge concept, but I think they relied on it to heavly to explain away certain things, that really didnt need it, like the Dragonborn, they could of easily said that Dragonborn were always there, instead of saying oh yeah they ported in from an alternate prime material plane.
I'm a big fan of Returned Abeir, so I'm glad they did that, but I do agree that they relied on the spellplague to explain too many things.
I disagree with that point of view. The biggest threat was the trouble that DMs mind could develop for the players with a huge cast of characters and immersive lore to put the players in. There was nothing wrong with the realms, they were the perfect fantasy settings. All this did was take a vibrant world and turn it into another depressing place with no hope. Now with spell plauge you have forced players hands and limited options instead of provided more. If you wanted change you could have ran games in Dark sun, Eberron or Dragonlance. I think the problem with Forgotten Realms is it would have required work on the part of the developers to change anything. Looking at the latest book that came out they obviously wanted to avoid that.
How exactly does the spellplague limit anyone? Every option that was available to a character is still there, and now there are more. It doesn't force anyone's hand, and in fact you don't even have to interact with it. Ever. I would at least throw a few plaguechanged monsters at the group every now and then to remind them it's there, but there are enough threats throughout the world to choose from, the players hardly have to go try to cure the spellplague or get spell scars or whatever.
The setting isn't depressing, and it wasn't all that vibant before. It was stale, stagnant. There are now more areas which are teeming with life, beneficial and melevolent. There is more magic in the world, and with returned abeir and such, more sentient beings, nations, organizations, threats and allies.
--
Wizards aren't weaker than they use to be, other classes are stronger than they used to be. Wizards can still find lost arcane tomes and gain power through doing so. it's rituals rather than combat spells, but the wizard is still inherently the most powerful ritualist in the game, still has more spells than anyone else (read how the wizard works, they have multiple daily and utility spells in their spellbook, per level, and they ready one of each level during each extended rest. there's even a feat to increase the spellbook. They also get more at-wills.)
If the Realms is post-apocolyptic now, it was so after the Time of Troubles as well. The realms got shaken up, sure. Gods being aspects of other gods isn't really a strange or new concept. I want some of those gods back, but hey, can't have everything. Nations were destroyed. Good. Doesn't mean the world is dying. It's a recovering world, sure. Absolutely not a dying one.
I would also challenge the assertion that the Realms has actually suffered an apocolypse, as such. The spellplague re-ordered the cosmos, and broke down society(though not completely), but I just don't see enough irreperable damage for it to qualify. Perhaps if you define apocalypse as "any great destructive event", but when someone refers to a setting as post apolalyptic, they can reasonably be assumed to mean that the world has been quite nearly destroyed, and that there is little to no hope of saving it. That simply does not fit the Realms in 4e. For something to be post-apocalyptic, it should probably be pretty much unrecognizable from it's pre-apocalypse form, with only vestiges, often misunderstood, of the old world.
The realms is post-cataclysm.
Also, in my experience, people really like 4e FR. but then, anecdotal evidence is pretty much worthless.
Read my first post. This was in response to Therise, pointing out her statement was incorrect because as much as people on this board hate it, people playing LFR are still playing FR. Please do take up this argument with Therise as she made the claim originally less people were playing FR now though.
That people are playing LFR isn't an argument for either direction in this case. Just because there are 100,000 people playing LFR doesn't mean that the total number of people playing FR hasn't dropped from 1,000,000 to 500,000.
The LFR players are only a small subset of the total FR players and since there was no pre-4e LFR we don't even have a developement how the number of LFR players waxed and waned with the editions. We know that there are more LFR players than there were LG players (because WotC said so), but that doesn't help us in regard to the question whether there are now more or less FR players than before.
So, yeah, you can say that the 4th edition Realms are post-apocalyptic, but if you don't like that you maybe should ask yourself why it never bothered you before. Obviously, it isn't the post-apocalyptic theme that is the burr under your saddle.
I'm not presuming to speak for anyone, but I am going to venture a guess that it's this:What's different now is that the mother of all these changes happened all at once and in the shared part of the Realms timeline we all play(ed) in. For those of us already intimately familiar with the Realms this means it affects the Realms we know "now" as opposed to having it all be part of a millennia old, established framework-to-play-in history.For new players, though, it's all back history.
If you're an older player or DM, those people bought a lot of books and supplements and all. For the designers to turn their backs on people who supported a company (or in this case, a product line) for decades and destroy that, they laregly betrayed their fanbase. What was popular and sold well, it's all been replaced.
New players, yeah they either like it, or they completely don't care.
Either way, it's a word of warning to people who do like the new stuff that WotC can and will change everything at the drop of a hat, regardless of fans or prior sales. They're willing to burn everything made popular by the previous design team, and refit the shell in whatever way they see fit for their own future books and supplements.
And I have no problem if people feel they have a legitimate gripe with the 4th edition Realms. That's not what I was saying. Arguing about whether or not the setting is post-apocalyptic now misses the point, though, since the setting has always been post-apocalyptic. That's the irony I was pointing out.
Whether FR is now or has ever been post-apocalyptic is frankly, a purely semantic argument that has little direct effect on the Realms itself. The changes that have already been outlined are the important part. Not what we call them.
Arguing "it's your Realms so none of this has to happen" is an Oberon Fallacy and has been over before and adds little to the discussion, especially in the case of novel readers.
The OP's hope that there will be a rollback is extremely unlikely, and it will certainly not take place on the basis of an outcry on the boards. That I am certain of. Either the 4E Realms will fall out of favour and may not even be supported to any significant degree in the next edition, or it will prosper, in which case we will get more of the same. Any changes made need not have any basis in the Realms, only a basis in the financial return of the Realms as a product.
Prove me wrong.
I like how Aegeri acts like he's posting irrefutable fact, and then tries to use *Wikipedia* as a definitive source.
You know, the very thing they tell you not to cite as a source, ever, on the first day of any class at all where you write any kind of paper?
Sorry, but no. Just... No.
I like how Aegeri acts like he's posting irrefutable fact, and then tries to use *Wikipedia* as a definitive source.
I haven't seen anyone prove the definition wrong yet.
You know, the very thing they tell you not to cite as a source, ever, on the first day of any class at all where you write any kind of paper?
Other than "It's Wikipedia" do you have a better definition of post-apocalyptic literature to put forward that provides a better definition? One that, I should point out, FR has to meet in the same way that other post-apocalyptic settings like Dark Sun and similar clearly do.
Because I haven't seen it yet if you do. You're welcome to continue being wrong and mangling a term used for a particular genre of literature that has certain characteristics though (which FR does not share).
Also in terms of pop-culture, literature and the like Wikipedia is a really invaluable source. When I want to know something about TV or similar, it's always the first place I ever go to for such information. I would never go there for anything on science or controversial topics though, of which there are far better sources available than Wikipedia obviously (like Nature etc). On a topic like this however, Wikipedia is more than adequate and this comes across to me as a way of dismissing a clear definition you know you can't meet.
which you have yet to prove anything at all other than that you are personally utterly convinced of your own point?
I haven't seen anything posted I haven't easily refuted. Are you claiming Therise's entirely subjective opinion that just because her friends (or those she observes playing DnD) don't play 4E that means the 4E realms is obviously less played (and 4E by extension)? I mean, that is a logical fallacy, like seeing a red house and then arguing that all houses are red. This argument can simply be dismissed out of hand, it's no more convincing than claiming the toast king met me last night and we had prawns on the BBQ (with my friends). Given I don't see numbers, facts or anything else from Therise, how can I be anything other than convinced I'm correct that she has not made a valid argument?
As you bought up academic assignments, do you think professors in college let you get away with claiming "All dogs are vegetarian" and then you cite "Well my dog and my friends dog that I see every day is a vegetarian, so the majority of dogs must be vegetarian". That's her argument in a nutshell. At least LFR activity gives an indication - even without solid numbers - that making an argument less people play FR is considerably more difficult than merely claiming less people play 4E FR based on a small, incredibly biased sample.
I've still yet to see figures that prove claims 4E FR is less played. I've still yet to see how 4E FR makes the definition of post-apocalyptic posted earlier, or a better definition that can be used instead being presented. Like, let's compare Dark Sun to FR shall we and see which one makes the definition posted above better? I know who I would back.
The only thing that's truly clear in your logic is that you've convinced yourself. Are you really going to tell someone in a half-bombed-out neighborhood, as they sit in the burning shell of their own house, that their neighborhood wasn't destroyed?
At the immediate aftermath yes, but you seem again to be ignorant of the point that 100 years later the place has been cleaned up for the most part. So they are now in a rebuilt house, most other houses are rebuilt and only a few were abandoned. There are a few different houses now instead as well and the overall effect is that you have a new neighborhood - not a destroyed one (which again shows the fallacy in your logic - you constantly disregard the time after the event that ruined the original neighborhood was). Especially when 100 years later the original distance won't be directly remembered by a large number of inhabitants.
Because the arguer's house is untouched?
It doesn't matter what happens to individual houses - only the entire neighborhood. Most of it, contrary to the arguments presented thus far, is in fact entirely still there and instead of being replaced with destroyed, uncivilized wastelands for the most part they have new civilizations that have replaced them. A few places in Faerun were rendered uninhabited wastelands and permanently destroyed - but these are exceptions not the rule.
That people are playing LFR isn't an argument for either direction in this case. Just because there are 100,000 people playing LFR doesn't mean that the total number of people playing FR hasn't dropped from 1,000,000 to 500,000.
Based on RPGA experience, I would wager the "Living" campaigns total number of players is probably higher than most individual settings total home campaign players. This is not a relevant point though, because the point here is merely to demonstrate that making the claim "Less people play 4E FR" than previously is an incredibly difficult assertion to make. I am not arguing more people play now (nor have I stated this), merely that the presence of LFR makes this a really difficult (and ridiculous) statement to make. Without LFR I have no doubt that Therise might be correct, but LFR complicates any statement someone makes because unless you know the number of people playing RPGA then it's difficult to assert.
It's interesting that you point only towards a negative scenario. How do you know that it didn't go up from 200,000 to 1,000,000? Once again unless someone points out some numbers to me such claims are unfounded. I would probably say LFR keeps 4E FR afloat by itself, because as I mentioned at the start people in the RPGA play LFR because it's the current living game. If they made a LE or LDS instead later, then they would play that instead. This doesn't change that "People playing LFR are still playing 4E FR". This doesn't change that "We do not know how many people play 4E FR without numbers" either. It does change "My friends and I don't play 4E FR, so less people play 4E FR".
Two of those arguments are mine and one is what I responded to.
Next time I decide to leave the FR boards because of the atmosphere and you try to convince me not to, Silversword, I'm not listening. 
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Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
Next time I decide to leave the FR boards because of the atmosphere and you try to convince me not to, Silversword, I'm not listening.
You better not leave me! I dont want to be the only one fighting the good fight against Stig and his evil Anti-Elf propaganda!
But any way back on topic: Or wait, what is the topic? I thought we were arguing about the direction of 4e Realms? Now were arguing about whether or not FR is a "post apocalyptic" setting!? Its so hard to keep up sometimes. Well ok I'll throw my 2 cents into this as well. The way i see it, its a matter of opinion. You could very well play a post-apacolyptic style campaign in the 4e Realms with little to no change. Thats another thing i love about the Realms is the versatility. You could do all sorts of different campaign styles. Eberron has the Steam Punk sorta vibe to it, Dark Sun is definitely its own thing, Dragonlance, etc. etc., but the Realms have a little of everything, and I think thats something that was intentionly left in for the $e Realms. So i think for the most part they got the right direction, I just wish theyd put more info in there, like whats up with Zakhara, What happened to Rillifane or Finder? Thats my main beef with them regarding the new Realms, not enough Realmslore!
I like 4e Forgotten Realms.
YEAH!!!
and I think thats something that was intentionly left in for the $e Realms.
Typo?You can indeed pull off a post-apocalyptic feeling to a realms game in certain regions. For example, Thay given it's a giant dead wasteland with horrific undead abominations as its primary inhabitants could pull off the theme, feel and general concepts that encompass what is meant by a "Post-apocalyptic" setting. As a whole the setting is not post-apocalyptic in theme, feel or genre - but certain parts of it I can definitely see where you could pull all of those off very successfully. One of the reasons I like FR as a setting in 4E is that you can pull off anything you like - there is something in the setting that matches a particular kind of genre or theme you want to pull off (Horror, high fantasy, Imperialism, Fantasy Politics etc).
FR is still a high-fantasy setting as a whole though and is not - as a whole - post apocalyptic in feel, theme or genre.
I'm not convinced that Anarkis isn't just winding people up, to be honest. The name would lend itself to that sort of thing. I call BS.
If so, he's succeeded admirably.
4e is a good thing. Change is a Good Thing. And, heretical though it may sound to some, D'n'D spinoff books are not particularly good fantasy.
Perhaps we should be complimenting the designers on their perfectly-realized catastrophe. The places you knew, the people you idolized, the world as a whole... changed forever, and in some cases gone for good. Congratulations! You've never been as much a part of the world as now, feeling the very fibre of it rent by tragedy. :D
Just because I don't play LFR doesn't mean that I've never heard of it. My impression of LFR is that it is highly insular.
While LFR is, in a way, 'forcing' FR in the hands of the masses, I would not understimate the connection people come to feel with the setting through such play.
I wachted how it when with Living Greyhawk: at the end of 3rd edition, people where invested in the campiagn, knew about their regions, and where rather dissapointed (to put it mildly) to see their campaign ended and 'their' setting axed as the default core setting.
Of course, a lot just stepped over to LFR.
I am not pretending most or even many LFR players started out knowing much or anything that goes on in the Realms. I have seen too many players create wizards from Thay for a mechanical benefit without knowing what Thay is. But people do get more of an interest and people do play in it.
We have over forty adventures a year. Many people ar now making their own adventures in the Realms. That is not something to entirely ignore.
Some would argue that if everyone is really powerful, what's the point of playing?
I don't think it is smart, in a discussion on a setting - which is mostly flavor, to focus on play balance to determine how magical a world is, or how powerful the people in it. For a game purpose, we all need to be near equally powerful, and the monster we meet need t be a proper challenge. That is the nature of games in general.
Magic and power come in difefrent forms - not only in the spells hurled by PCs. remmember that NPCs are not restricted to the (game) limits of PCs. They can have different powers and magical abilities, especially if the story does not require you to stat them out.
I think (my opinion) that, in flavor, at least, the new Realms are more magical than the old ones. I am sure not everyone will agree. In fact, not every character in game, in the Realms, will agree that magic is now more powerful or 'better' - something I used as a base idea for an upcoming adventure.
But we have more magical flavors, we have more magical areas and effects, the elves have returned (though that happened before the Spellplague), the shadowfell and feywild now touch Toril in various places, etc.
So, in flavor, I think he Realms did get more magical. Game balance may reduce that feel a bit, I guess, but a DM can definitely play up the high fantasy atmosphere a bit, espeially if he uses fantastical terrain in his encounters.
Halruaa is utterly gone. Netheril holds a thumb over ALL of Sembia, ready to crush it. Thay was destroyed by an army of undead. Calimshan... Damara... most of the Underdark... how many more do I need to mention?
I guess you can define the world as post-apocalypse though you need to take into account that a 100 years passed. That is much longer than 3rd ed after the ToT. There are still remnants reminding of the cataclysm, but in normal life, people have moved on, so most of the time you would not have the post-apocalyptic feel until you actually go out into a plaguelands.
I agree the cutting was rather severe.
Loosing Halruaa may not have been that smart a move, though parts survived (the Five Companies). I would have prefrered if they had left the whole south alone. I had my eye on Damara (with the Crinti) originally. Instead, I got the Dalelands to work with (which is pretty great, but I really wanted to use the drow. Oh wait. I am using the drow :P ).
I don't mind the fall of Sembia that much. I use them as opponents in my Dalelands plots. I even returned Mirabeta Selkirk for the purpose.
Thay and Calmishan also worry me less because I don't do much with it.
But yes, a lot changed.
A lot also stayed the same. Cormyr, Waterdeep, or the Dalelands are pretty much as they were. Sure, a few dales fell to Sembia, but that offers ways for conflict and adventure. And Scardale was sin city before that anyway.
I understand if too much people loved was changed or got dropped.
I lament Damara, Eilistraee, Kiaransalee, Mask, Alustriel, Halastar, Semmemon (actually, unsure if he is dead? I don't know that much about him), the Harpers (because I can't use them - though I do have the Silver Ravens) and Halastar.
I can understand if people give up after that.
For me though, there is enough to play with.
I have loads of lore I can still use (even 2nd ed stuff), and a hopefully compelling story to tell - if R&D lets me get away with it.
I will note here that the number one complaint about LFR I hear is that there's little to no roleplaying involved.
I guess you can define the world as post-apocalypse though you need to take into account that a 100 years passed. That is much longer than 3rd ed after the ToT. There are still remnants reminding of the cataclysm, but in normal life, people have moved on, so most of the time you would not have the post-apocalyptic feel until you actually go out into a plaguelands.
I agree the cutting was rather severe.
Loosing Halruaa may not have been that smart a move, though parts survived (the Five Companies). I would have prefrered if they had left the whole south alone. I had my eye on Damara (with the Crinti) originally. Instead, I got the Dalelands to work with (which is pretty great, but I really wanted to use the drow. Oh wait. I am using the drow :P ).
I don't mind the fall of Sembia that much. I use them as opponents in my Dalelands plots. I even returned Mirabeta Selkirk for the purpose.
Thay and Calmishan also worry me less because I don't do much with it.
But yes, a lot changed.
A lot also stayed the same. Cormyr, Waterdeep, or the Dalelands are pretty much as they were. Sure, a few dales fell to Sembia, but that offers ways for conflict and adventure. And Scardale was sin city before that anyway.
I understand if too much people loved was changed or got dropped.
I lament Damara, Eilistraee, Kiaransalee, Mask, Alustriel, Halastar, Semmemon (actually, unsure if he is dead? I don't know that much about him), the Harpers (because I can't use them - though I do have the Silver Ravens) and Halastar.
I can understand if people give up after that.
For me though, there is enough to play with.
I have loads of lore I can still use (even 2nd ed stuff), and a hopefully compelling story to tell - if R&D lets me get away with it.
I will note here that the number one complaint about LFR I hear is that there's little to no roleplaying involved.
I believe that has little to do with the setting or the adventure stories, and more with the mode of play. Most LFR games are set to run for 4 hours, and peoples sometimes rush though it, especially at conventions.
When people take some time for the games, they DO have opportunities for roleplay. I have had a few games interrupted on a gameday because we ran out of time (since we were roleplaying). That is annoying, but it has little to do with the new Realms or 4th ed, and more with people not taking their time to play. Most of the adventures I publish do better if you take time for it (especially DALE1-6 The Vesperin Initiative).
Gomez
Also, remember one thing--the sharn over the millennia have rescued folks up against extinction/destruction, offering them life in the sharn gestalt instead of certain death. With all the destruction that occurred before, during, and after the Spellplague, who's to say what's now a part of that gestalt? (I.E. Anyone wishing that some remnants of Halruaa or the Old Empires or anything else stayed in their Realms has a back-door option.)
Hope that answers your question, Draenar. Be well.
Steven
I like 4e Forgotten Realms.
Me too.
My only complaint about FR4E: the maps suck. I mean they really, really, really suck. More than one year later I still cannot believe that a team of people actually approved the maps for publication. Surely at least one person piped up, in a manner reminiscent of the "heroes" in an Emperor's New Clothes, and said: we cannot publish those maps because they really suck!
Eberron for 4E: the maps are wonderful, arguably superior to those from the 3.5E setting. FR? Crap.
Anyway, I actually agree with the new direction for the Forgotten Realms. It needed refreshing to bring in a new audience.
Anyway, I actually agree with the new direction for the Forgotten Realms. It needed refreshing to bring in a new audience.
Emphasis mine. And yes, this is why the changes were made. This is also why whether we like the 4E Realms or not does not matter one bit. Does anyone honestly believe that (as a thought experiment) if the FRCG and FRPG both sold, for example, a million and a half copies when the last batch sold only a million that Wizbro would actually give a damn if not a single one was bought by an existing fan of the Realms? Of course not.
Wizbro is a company. Companies have to make money or they die. Products have to give a return or they get cancelled. Will Wizbro endorse a change to product if they consider it to be a niche market product to fit the lowest common denominator and so sell much more? You betcha. This isn't an attack, it is a statement of how the current system works. Personally, I consider it soulless, myopic and very very sad, but then I am demonstrably not a businessman and as one person my opinion neither matters or can change anything.
What has happened, has happened. We cannot change it. It will happen again. Next?
I cant say I was surprised to see it happen though, after reading one of the best of the realms shorties, or one of the other shorties... I got a strange feeling it was going away.... just liek reading the first 3 halo noves, I knew that Majpr SRG johnson was going to die by the end of the series.....
anyway...
as I said before it was edited out, the Realms were changed for the better and worst.
and this is how I see it, not as a way to antagonise a flame, so dont take it as such.
btw merry christmas
I am really hoping that they decide to salvage the damage and come up with a storyline where Shar created an alternate reality using peoples Shadows. That none of the changes to the realms really occured and that while not dead many people are traumatized by the changes. Forgotten Realms is not supposed to be a dead realm like some of the other models. Its supposed to be a Vibrant complex world full of wonder at every corner. I fell in love with the realms and the only thing they needed to do what release an updated 4E book, create a book of Maps that matched up with the 4E campaign book, and perhaps added some rumours of wars coming up. Instead they dropped an atomic bomb on the world killing anyone interesting. All these characters who had stories to tell are now dead, crazy or missing. Instead they forced this dark Demon laden world with shadows and.... Its just all wrong, WRONG setting, WRONG WRONG.... I am so frustrated that all the stories I have been reading for years are tainted with this garbage. When I finished the new Drittz book I almost punched a wall.
again, 4e FR is not a dead realm. it is still a vibrant complex world, and there is more wonder, with more corners for it to hide behind.
I like how Aegeri acts like he's posting irrefutable fact, and then tries to use *Wikipedia* as a definitive source.
You know, the very thing they tell you not to cite as a source, ever, on the first day of any class at all where you write any kind of paper?
Sorry, but no. Just... No.
would you cite the world book encyclopedia in a paper?
wikipedia is the same as an encyclopedia, except that it makes cross reference, and original source checking, much easier.
Also, in a debate, source is irrelevent, only the validity of an argument, taken in a vacuum, is relevent. period.
do not cite wiki.
well atleast thats what the instructors at cnm tell me
Arguing "it's your Realms so none of this has to happen" is an Oberoni Fallacy
Hi Iluvrien.
Please don't take this as a nitpick/troll move on my part: I just wanted to point out that the Oberoni Fallacy doesn't actually describe the "it's your Realms" type of argument (unless the fallacy has grown and/or been changed).
On another note: Oberoni was just plain wrong. :p
Does anyone honestly believe that (as a thought experiment) if the FRCG and FRPG both sold, for example, a million and a half copies when the last batch sold only a million that Wizbro would actually give a damn if not a single one was bought by an existing fan of the Realms? Of course not.
You state that you're not a business person, but then go on to harangue us with a supposedly objective description of how WotC is run as a business.
How the hell do you even know what their metrics are? How do you know "they don't care" if old fans don't buy their books? Do you really think they went out of their way to split their market in lieu of trying to win all of it?
Any person with money is a potential book buyer. It follows they want new and old fans.
WotC employees read these forums. I'd hate to log in and find somebody I don't even know depicting me as a soulless, myopic person because of the business I'm a part of.
[off topic] I hope your move went well and you are getting comfortably settled in. Take care.
no, not true.wikipedia can NOT be used without a second refference to back it up, as the web community can add to it and make articles for it at will. thus its accurateness is questionable
do not cite wiki.
well atleast thats what the instructors at cnm tell me
There's no reason that you can't use wiki in an internet debate. If someone doubts the validity of the article reference, the article itself will generally have avenues by which they can check the validity. ie, checking out the talk page/looking at the history of the article, checking out external links, etc.
Particularly, articles which can only be changed by moderators are even less questionable, and articles which are very comprehensive with many links to other articles tend to be quite accurate and reliable, compare to say, stubs.
This isn't a college course, this is an internet discussion. The definition of post-apocalyptic fiction given in the wikipedia article is, so far as I can determine at least, spot on with a study of post-apocolyptic fiction throughout history. A reading of the entire article, along with any amount of study of PA works, supports the argument that while 4e FR may in fact be a world that has suffered a catastrophy, it is not an example of a PA setting.
The only common trait is that really bad things happened, and things got shook up. 4e FR does not reach anywhere near the severity that is generally accepted as required for qualification as PA fiction.
but this is off topic, I'm letting it go
and it would still make the poster who uses it look dumb, if the article is wrong.
It's a good thing that it's not wrong then isn't it? I like how everyone has attempted to dismiss the article without actually giving a single coherent reason as to what is wrong with it or providing a better definition to use instead. I went to wikipedia because on matters like this it is an unbelievably useful resource for such a discussion.
Once again, I point out that FR can in no way meet the criteria established for the standard tropes and conventions of "Post-apocalyptic" settings as a whole. As a whole, the setting is not "Post-Apocalyptic" in any fashion given the time jump, civilization is not in decline in any manner in Faerun, much of it wasn't destroyed period and much of what was destroyed ended up being replaced with other civilizations instead (Abeir). If someone wants to provide a better definition that can somehow put post-spellplague FR anywhere near the same genre as Mad Max and Dark Sun then I will be impressed.
For laughs I told my players the next game I will be setting them will be "Post-Apocalyptic" and they immediately assumed that would be Dark Sun. Instead I said "Oh no, I don't mean Dark Sun why I mean Forgotten Realms". I've never seen a group of people give me a more incredulous look in my entire life, before they burst out laughing and then said "Seriously we're playing Dark Sun right?" (as they are all dead keen on the setting).
I don't think many players are going to buy you advertising an FR game as "Post-apocalyptic" fantasy to be quite frank
Please don't take this as a nitpick/troll move on my part: I just wanted to point out that the Oberoni Fallacy doesn't actually describe the "it's your Realms" type of argument (unless the fallacy has grown and/or been changed).
It doesn't directly describe the "it's your Realms" argument but it has been used to describe a similar situation in rules, i.e. that just because something is fixable through rule 0 it doesn't mean the rule wasn't broken in the first place. In this case suggesting "it's your Realms" as a way of correcting an issue with people/places/actions/changes that exist within the Realms does nothing to downplay the fact that there may indeed be an issue with the aforementioned feature. The view is also entirely gamecentric and since the Realms are not game-only it does not address those people who are not in that group. As such, even if you don't reference Oberoni (and your assertion that they were "just plain wrong" needs either a proof or an argument otherwise it remains a statement of opinion) the statement does not stand up unless it is only directed at a game-only user of the Realms and in that case only as an attempt to speak to a fix, rather than addressing the element itself. How likely is that on these boards?
An interesting interpretation of my thought experiment
I really need to take lessons from you some time in reinterpreting other people’s posts. You didn't answer my question, instead you challenged the question itself. Just because I am not a businessman myself, does not mean I haven't been in the past or that I have no dealings with them now. I have been part of several large companies in the past and now, even as an academic scientist, the business world has a significant effect on my work and the work of my colleagues. I have seen how businesses work, and having seen that I have intentionally chosen not to work for or with them any more than I have to. It is also worth mentioning that I did not single out WotC's methods, my point was about the requirements of all businesses and products they produce. As such it was a generalization and subject to some inaccuracy. I do not believe it is far wrong in this case.
I also did not suggest that WotC went out of their way to split the market. I suggested that if the market was split by a product (or group of products) while still making significantly more money then it doing so was unlikely to present a problem to those gauging the success of the product that had caused it. This is different.
Here's another question for you that goes to the heart of the argument. How would a book publishing business know, when you bought a book produced by them, if you were a returning customer or not? If you don't have that information then how can you base decisions on it? Is it not more likely that you look at what has sold well in the recent past, what is popular right now in similar products and at any feedback you got since the publishing of your last product and then produce the very best product you can based on that information?
When that product is released, how is the success of that product gauged? I would be putting my bet on total sales figures being more important than the number returning customers. Wouldn't you?
WotC employees read these forums. I'd hate to log in and find somebody I don't even know depicting me as a soulless, myopic person because of the business I'm a part of.
Now this is glorious. It is a work of art. This rather stretched interpretation of my words hadn't even occurred to me as a possibility. How on Earth did you manage to get from my unhappiness at an approach to plotting the evolution of a product to me calling a WotC employee any of those things? In board parlance, I was attacking the post, not the poster. It is the concept of endorsement of a product purely on the basis of its sales that I find "soulless, myopic and very very sad", and certainly not the designers we have been lucky enough to have contact with in the past.
[off topic] I hope your move went well and you are getting comfortably settled in. Take care.
[also off topic] It has gone quite well thank you, now all we need is the broadband to turn up and the government to stop threatening British universities with massive spending cuts and the my university to stop threatening my future department with even more cuts just as they are offering me a job and we will be fine! You take care too.
It doesn't directly describe the "it's your Realms" argument but it has been used to describe a similar situation in rules, i.e. that just because something is fixable through rule 0 it doesn't mean the rule wasn't broken in the first place. In this case suggesting "it's your Realms" as a way of correcting an issue with people/places/actions/changes that exist within the Realms does nothing to downplay the fact that there may indeed be an issue with the aforementioned feature.
This is true on both counts. If a broken set of rules can be fixed by the DM putting in a list of torturous house rules to suit what they view as broken or not broken, the problem is not with the DM if the game becomes broken but the inherently broken ruleset. If the world is something someone doesn't like and doesn't want to play in, it is not up to the DM to rewrite everything (unless they want to do so) and it's certainly a valid complaint with the setting. Albeit, I feel personally that it's easier to "fix" a setting when fluff is universal and rules aren't. It's easy to run a 4E game using entirely 3.5x fluff. I have all the 3.5 Eberron books like Secrets of Sarlona and such, despite running 4E Eberron every single one of them is easily applied because fluff that doesn't impact mechanics is universal. Running a game in 4E with 3.x realms fluff is equally simple as well - nobody can take my old books away.
Both of these are still excellent points, plus your point is further strengthed that in the Realms especially due to novels being canon they are stuck with whatever happens in the game setting (unlike Eberron where the two things are disconnected - always a decision I will argue was a good one). People who read novels have no control over that at all and I certainly do agree if you don't like the 4E realms direction but liked the novels, you've got no recourse than to stop reading them or put up with it.
I live in an area of South Jersey that has a decent sized gaming community where 4E is is played often and is supported by many. This means almost nothing really, but just stating my observation.
I live in an area of South Jersey that has a decent sized gaming community where 4E is is played often and is supported by many. This means almost nothing really, but just stating my observation.
I will tell you that where I live there are no squirrels, so I can only conclude there aren't any squirrels anywhere else or they are obscenely rare.
Show
;)
In all fairness, whether the post-apocalyptic label is justified or not, the topic was based around the rather tragic statement that all of a sudden the Realms are a hopeless place of death and misery, and the topic includes 4e as a whole with that damning pronouncement.
I'm not convinced that Anarkis isn't just winding people up, to be honest. The name would lend itself to that sort of thing. I call BS.
If so, he's succeeded admirably.
4e is a good thing. Change is a Good Thing. And, heretical though it may sound to some, D'n'D spinoff books are not particularly good fantasy.
Perhaps we should be complimenting the designers on their perfectly-realized catastrophe. The places you knew, the people you idolized, the world as a whole... changed forever, and in some cases gone for good. Congratulations! You've never been as much a part of the world as now, feeling the very fibre of it rent by tragedy. :D
Dude I am not winding people up, this is not for the sake of being a board troll. I am truely sincere in saying I think that Forgotten Realms has been butchered and I HATE 4.0. I have read the majority of Ed Greenwood and R.A. Salvatores books. I have followed forgotten realms since 2.0 and it has been my favorite world by far. I have never been attracted to Ravenloft or Dark Sun as they are miserable worlds. What I loved about Faerun was the feeling that there was balance and now the balance is gone. Instead they decided to take years of building characters into what they are and throw them in the garbage. I have a feeling that Ed has taken a back seat and this is the result.
ARGHHHHHHHHHHH the fact you even accused me of such a thing just makes me even more upset.
I am really hoping that they decide to salvage the damage and come up with a storyline where Shar created an alternate reality using peoples Shadows. That none of the changes to the realms really occured and that while not dead many people are traumatized by the changes. Forgotten Realms is not supposed to be a dead realm like some of the other models. Its supposed to be a Vibrant complex world full of wonder at every corner. I fell in love with the realms and the only thing they needed to do what release an updated 4E book, create a book of Maps that matched up with the 4E campaign book, and perhaps added some rumours of wars coming up. Instead they dropped an atomic bomb on the world killing anyone interesting. All these characters who had stories to tell are now dead, crazy or missing. Instead they forced this dark Demon laden world with shadows and.... Its just all wrong, WRONG setting, WRONG WRONG.... I am so frustrated that all the stories I have been reading for years are tainted with this garbage. When I finished the new Drittz book I almost punched a wall.
again, 4e FR is not a dead realm. it is still a vibrant complex world, and there is more wonder, with more corners for it to hide behind.
More wonder!!! MORE WONDER!!! THEY SLAUGHTER MYSTARA. THEY PUT HALF THE HEROES OF THE REALM IN SECLUSION. THEY DIDN'T JUST KILL THEM THEY MADE THEM NON EXISTENT! EVERY BOOKS BASICALLY ENDS WITH EVERYONE DIED AND THEN 100 YEARS LATER!IF WONDER IS THROWING STUFF IN THE TRASH WELL COME OVER MY HOUSE AND I CAN THROW EVERYTHING YOU VALUE IN THE TRASH AND SEE IF YOU THINK ITS WONDER.... *Pulls out hair*
More wonder!!! MORE WONDER!!! THEY SLAUGHTER MYSTARA. THEY PUT HALF THE HEROES OF THE REALM IN SECLUSION. THEY DIDN'T JUST KILL THEM THEY MADE THEM NON EXISTENT! EVERY BOOKS BASICALLY ENDS WITH EVERYONE DIED AND THEN 100 YEARS LATER!IF WONDER IS THROWING STUFF IN THE TRASH WELL COME OVER MY HOUSE AND I CAN THROW EVERYTHING YOU VALUE IN THE TRASH AND SEE IF YOU THINK ITS WONDER.... *Pulls out hair*
More wonder is an increase in people places and organizations you know little to nothing about. Wonder is the Feywild.
Wonder is a returned Myth Drannor and that other elven(eladrin) realm that go caught up in the whole sembia/cormyr thing.
Wonder is an entire new continent that whole swathes of are completely unexplored by civilized people.
More wonder is a world that's more wild, and more vibrantly alive. Less stagnant.
Drizzt wasn't wonder. He was roughly a half dozen good books and many more halfway decent books worth of a character that never changes after those first books.
More wonder is a world where there are no chosen running around the world, where the heroes of a given campaign are the the heroes of the realms.
More wonder is a plague of blue fire that can warp, destroy, or even empower you with a single exposure, changing whole landscapes forever.
More wonder is motes of flying earth that magically retain the ecology and climate of the region below them.
More wonder is a flying City state on such an earth more defended and supported by 5 airships, which is constantly travelling the realms.
More wonder is a world where there is literally magic everywhere, and even places where reality can be warped by the raw concentration of magical energy.
yes, more wonder.
So, are you always this emotional, or are you just really attached to cattie brie and the Kende...I mean halfling? :P
Seriously, calm down, mate. It's just a game setting. I was infuriated when Joel Rosenberg killed off Karl, but it was just a book. My Karl is no more coming back than your mystra.
Of course, cattie-brie and what's his name and such might come back, considering how they ended up.
Oh, and who did they make non existant? Are you talking about gods that were revealed as aspects of other gods?
Really?
Eh, I guess I've just known enough pagans that the idea doesn't seem strange to me.
and it would still make the poster who uses it look dumb, if the article is wrong.
but this is off topic, I'm letting it go
no more so than people who mock him, and then see him proven right. Wikipedia isn't a primary source. Niether is the world book encyclopedia. Wikipedia is correct most of the time, and has far more information. It's worth checking when you're not sure of something.
More wonder!!! MORE WONDER!!! THEY SLAUGHTER MYSTARA. THEY PUT HALF THE HEROES OF THE REALM IN SECLUSION. THEY DIDN'T JUST KILL THEM THEY MADE THEM NON EXISTENT! EVERY BOOKS BASICALLY ENDS WITH EVERYONE DIED AND THEN 100 YEARS LATER!IF WONDER IS THROWING STUFF IN THE TRASH WELL COME OVER MY HOUSE AND I CAN THROW EVERYTHING YOU VALUE IN THE TRASH AND SEE IF YOU THINK ITS WONDER.... *Pulls out hair*
More wonder is an increase in people places and organizations you know little to nothing about. Wonder is the Feywild.
Wonder is a returned Myth Drannor and that other elven(eladrin) realm that go caught up in the whole sembia/cormyr thing.
Wonder is an entire new continent that whole swathes of are completely unexplored by civilized people.
More wonder is a world that's more wild, and more vibrantly alive. Less stagnant.
Drizzt wasn't wonder. He was roughly a half dozen good books and many more halfway decent books worth of a character that never changes after those first books.
More wonder is a world where there are no chosen running around the world, where the heroes of a given campaign are the the heroes of the realms.
More wonder is a plague of blue fire that can warp, destroy, or even empower you with a single exposure, changing whole landscapes forever.
More wonder is motes of flying earth that magically retain the ecology and climate of the region below them.
More wonder is a flying City state on such an earth more defended and supported by 5 airships, which is constantly travelling the realms.
More wonder is a world where there is literally magic everywhere, and even places where reality can be warped by the raw concentration of magical energy.
yes, more wonder.
So, are you always this emotional, or are you just really attached to cattie brie and the Kende...I mean halfling? :P
Seriously, calm down, mate. It's just a game setting. I was infuriated when Joel Rosenberg killed off Karl, but it was just a book. My Karl is no more coming back than your mystra.
Of course, cattie-brie and what's his name and such might come back, considering how they ended up.
Oh, and who did they make non existant? Are you talking about gods that were revealed as aspects of other gods?
Really?
Eh, I guess I've just known enough pagans that the idea doesn't seem strange to me.
There was plenty of organizations and creatures I knew very little about.
Eladarin are a redundant race. They are elves with a splash of Aasimar.
Myth Drannor was one of those places you would adventure to when you were ready for some craziness.
Forgotten Realms already had plenty of undiscovered zones as well as zones that would be served with better maps of the area.
I disagree with you completely. The heroes of the realm provided great targets for evil campaigns and also helped sweep Heroes up into larger then life situations.
Drittz, Cadderly, Catteibre, Regis, Seven Sisters have been companions of mine for years. From when I was living on a couches to now where I share a townhouse with my wife. They were constant companions while I moved around and they are dear to me. Drittz has always been moving towards something but he has never been quite sure what it is. He has fought for peace but you can see a struggle for him to find other reasons to help those beyond his friends. The wonder of Drittz leaving underdark, the unlikely friendships he has made, the choices he has had to make sometimes comprimising to evil. The last book was a mockery of the time invested. The whole book two of his companions are in a coma and at the end he can't save them, talk to them, see them ever again. RA Salvatore blows away one of his main characters is a hardly comprehensible manner. To fulfill a story arc where AO completely lets Shar screw Forgotten Realms up. It is not logical based off the other books that have been put out in the past. I am not against some consolidation but it didn't have to be blow the world up manner and rewrite history by making 100 years go by.
Need I remind you why FLYING CITIES ARE BAD. The Netheril likely the cause of the spell plauge because the morons were the ones who traveled into the shadow realm learned the hard way. All that stuff came crashing down. I have zero interest in the gimmickery of flying cities.
There was magic everywhere before. No point.
Halflings and Kender are completely different. Kender are Halflings with severe ADHD. That comment may lead me to understand why you like the new Forgotten Realms. Its similiar to the disaster that is Dragonlance.
I don't have a problem with the Gods having multiple faces. I have a problem with them slaughtering God and removing those that were interesting plot pieces. It doesn't fit into the balance that was the Forgotten Realms. The reason for the first God Wars was lost of balance and apparently that wasn't enough?
For the most part the new Realms is a matter of opinion, and its hard to argue against that. They had to change things up some to fit it in with 4e, and all in all i think they did a decent job on that. The Spellplague thing makes sense to me, I mean it was just a matter of time before Cyric and Shar offed Mystra, Theyve been planning it for a while now, Im just surprised it took them so long. But for those that hate the Spellplague and the changes it wrought, how would you have done it, if you had complete creative control over the transition of the Realms into 4e? How would it have been done right?
More wonder!!! MORE WONDER!!! THEY SLAUGHTER MYSTARA. THEY PUT HALF THE HEROES OF THE REALM IN SECLUSION. THEY DIDN'T JUST KILL THEM THEY MADE THEM NON EXISTENT! EVERY BOOKS BASICALLY ENDS WITH EVERYONE DIED AND THEN 100 YEARS LATER!IF WONDER IS THROWING STUFF IN THE TRASH WELL COME OVER MY HOUSE AND I CAN THROW EVERYTHING YOU VALUE IN THE TRASH AND SEE IF YOU THINK ITS WONDER.... *Pulls out hair*
More wonder is an increase in people places and organizations you know little to nothing about. Wonder is the Feywild.
Wonder is a returned Myth Drannor and that other elven(eladrin) realm that go caught up in the whole sembia/cormyr thing.
Wonder is an entire new continent that whole swathes of are completely unexplored by civilized people.
More wonder is a world that's more wild, and more vibrantly alive. Less stagnant.
Drizzt wasn't wonder. He was roughly a half dozen good books and many more halfway decent books worth of a character that never changes after those first books.
More wonder is a world where there are no chosen running around the world, where the heroes of a given campaign are the the heroes of the realms.
More wonder is a plague of blue fire that can warp, destroy, or even empower you with a single exposure, changing whole landscapes forever.
More wonder is motes of flying earth that magically retain the ecology and climate of the region below them.
More wonder is a flying City state on such an earth more defended and supported by 5 airships, which is constantly travelling the realms.
More wonder is a world where there is literally magic everywhere, and even places where reality can be warped by the raw concentration of magical energy.
yes, more wonder.
So, are you always this emotional, or are you just really attached to cattie brie and the Kende...I mean halfling? :P
Seriously, calm down, mate. It's just a game setting. I was infuriated when Joel Rosenberg killed off Karl, but it was just a book. My Karl is no more coming back than your mystra.
Of course, cattie-brie and what's his name and such might come back, considering how they ended up.
Oh, and who did they make non existant? Are you talking about gods that were revealed as aspects of other gods?
Really?
Eh, I guess I've just known enough pagans that the idea doesn't seem strange to me.
There was plenty of organizations and creatures I knew very little about.
Eladarin are a redundant race. They are elves with a splash of Aasimar.
Myth Drannor was one of those places you would adventure to when you were ready for some craziness.
Forgotten Realms already had plenty of undiscovered zones as well as zones that would be served with better maps of the area.
I disagree with you completely. The heroes of the realm provided great targets for evil campaigns and also helped sweep Heroes up into larger then life situations.
Drittz, Cadderly, Catteibre, Regis, Seven Sisters have been companions of mine for years. From when I was living on a couches to now where I share a townhouse with my wife. They were constant companions while I moved around and they are dear to me. Drittz has always been moving towards something but he has never been quite sure what it is. He has fought for peace but you can see a struggle for him to find other reasons to help those beyond his friends. The wonder of Drittz leaving underdark, the unlikely friendships he has made, the choices he has had to make sometimes comprimising to evil. The last book was a mockery of the time invested. The whole book two of his companions are in a coma and at the end he can't save them, talk to them, see them ever again. RA Salvatore blows away one of his main characters is a hardly comprehensible manner. To fulfill a story arc where AO completely lets Shar screw Forgotten Realms up. It is not logical based off the other books that have been put out in the past. I am not against some consolidation but it didn't have to be blow the world up manner and rewrite history by making 100 years go by.
Need I remind you why FLYING CITIES ARE BAD. The Netheril likely the cause of the spell plauge because the morons were the ones who traveled into the shadow realm learned the hard way. All that stuff came crashing down. I have zero interest in the gimmickery of flying cities.
There was magic everywhere before. No point.
Halflings and Kender are completely different. Kender are Halflings with severe ADHD. That comment may lead me to understand why you like the new Forgotten Realms. Its similiar to the disaster that is Dragonlance.
I don't have a problem with the Gods having multiple faces. I have a problem with them slaughtering God and removing those that were interesting plot pieces. It doesn't fit into the balance that was the Forgotten Realms. The reason for the first God Wars was lost of balance and apparently that wasn't enough?
first things first: regis reminds me of a kender. that was the point of that. I thought that was obvious.
If you see Drizzt as wonder and not cities built on earth motes, we have very little common ground. Our premises are diametrically opposed.
There wasn't magic everywhere before. There were dead magic zones. There aren't now. There is literally more magic in the world. Factually.
AO only interfered once. Once. For a very specific reason, that had nothing to do with stopping catastrophe. They stole his ****, and he punished them, but gave them a way to get back in his good graces. There is no logical reason for him to start the spellplague.
Myth Drannor's return is a good thing. It's a good thing that elves are not a declining race that is in many cases trying to remove themselves from the world.
On a similar note, it's great that dwarves are not a declining race anymore, and are less removed from the rest of the world.
Eladrin are elves. In FR they represent sun, moon, and probably star elves, along with the odd feywild born elf. They are not, in any way, aasimars. They're descendants of ancient Fey, closer to their Fey blood than other elves, or drow.
Seriously, yeah. More wonder. By far. I'm sorry that salvatore didn't do a good job of writing the end of some of his characters, but that's his bad. I know how you feel, I've been there. It sucks. it's not the fault of 4e, or of the 4e realms.
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For the most part the new Realms is a matter of opinion, and its hard to argue against that. They had to change things up some to fit it in with 4e, and all in all i think they did a decent job on that. The Spellplague thing makes sense to me, I mean it was just a matter of time before Cyric and Shar offed Mystra, Theyve been planning it for a while now, Im just surprised it took them so long. But for those that hate the Spellplague and the changes it wrought, how would you have done it, if you had complete creative control over the transition of the Realms into 4e? How would it have been done right?
important part bolded :P
Seriously!
Yes!
I'm sayin'!
I mean, when I read that Cyric killed Mystra, I flashed back to the avatar books and thought "Yep. Of course he did."
The more I read about it, the more it made sense.
More to the point of the thread, is the 4e realms good? Well, it depends on what you liked about the old realms and if you thought they needed any changes. I liked the old realms and I have played that setting for years, it is a great setting. I like the 4e realms as well, not to say that it doesn't have certain problems, but most of them stem from simply not enough detail. That isn't the settings fault, that is more on the company that produces the product.
This topic is subjective, why we seem to have so many threads on it is completely beyond me. Simply put, are the realms moving in the right direction, for me they are for the most part, but I would like a little more detail in the books.
This thread has been closed due to a VCL request.