He is specializing in evocation magic, specifically in fire spells, which is probably the worst thing to be for these campaigns. While he was in the shadow plane he had to roll a concentration check anytime he casted a fire spell. He eventually figured out that he was better off using magic missiles or lighting bolts, but then he got to the final battle with the Dragon (who attuned the ritual to suppress evocation spells) and I think he was only able to get one spell off against the dragon.
Last night we had our first battle in the Shadowdale campaign, where everything is affected by the "Rite of Unwinding" So now all his evocation spells are at -4 caster level. And when they get closer to the ritual, he won't be able to cast evocation spells at all!
They will get Sylune's kiss allowing him to cast 3 spells when under the effect of the ritual, but I can see him getting very frustrated with this campaign, and the Anauroch campaign, which according to the introduction will also include some sort of weave destroying ritual, and for a time the PCs will be without the use of magic items and the ability to cast!
So my question is has anyone else run into problems with keeping the partys wizard or sorceror happy in these campaigns? And do you have any recommendations on how to help out a frustrated wiz/sorc without completely rewriting or abandoning the campaign? Thanks!
In complete mage, there is something called Reserve Feats. They draw off the power of their spells to mimic certain effects. These effects are supernatural abilities. Thus, they work in areas of dead or wild magic and they have no school so there's penalty there. I strongly suggest he take a feat or two of these if this is whats going to happen in your campaign. If you don't have the Complete Mage, PM me and i'll go further into detail on different Reserve Feats for you.
This is a great idea, and to go along with it you could add in some roleplaying about the PCs (or specifically the warlock) "discovering" information that would allow him to "attune his mind" (thereby explaining the feat) in a special way. It could even be something Mystra-specific, a hint from the ether as it were. Finding a mundane book in a really old library, or in ruins, that help him "train" against dead/wild magic, perhaps even something the shadowvar were working on, and they let it "slip" into the wrong hands.
Therise, thanks for the RP idea. I am playing this campaign online, so I'm always looking for RP encounters to add on to the book campaign. This sorceror actually became a Knight of the Weave in a previous RP encounter when he communed with an Avatar of Mystra. I think I'll do some more with his Knight of the Weave training in order to explain him picking up one of these Reserve Feats.
-That's just "how the die" rolls, so to speak. I remember, I played a Psionicist, with a focus in telepathy in a campaign that the DM had super-specialized in Undead.
I'm sure that you have at least a few psionic powers you could rely on that didn't have to include telepathy. What the sorcerer's problem is that his ability to cast spells wouldn't function or be severly penalized to practically nothing. In the case when player's can't "do" anything their class grants results in just sitting there being bored.
I plan on leading this adventure into the Shadowdale adventure. To keep my spell casters content, I'm going to try to lead them to do Chapter 3 before Chapter 2 so they can get to work on ending the Rite of Unwinding ASAP. In the course of the adventure it may make sense to do so since there is a huge mistake with the module in that there is all kinds of Evocation and light spells active in Castle Kragg, when it's suppose to be under the effects of the Rite of Unwinding. It only makes sense to have those spells operating if the Rite has ended.
I'm sure that you have at least a few psionic powers you could rely on that didn't have to include telepathy.
-A single ray spell.
In the case when player's can't "do" anything their class grants results in just sitting there being bored.
-The player can still "do" everything that is related to not casting spells.
-My
18DELTA ;)
-With this whole adventure "path" one has to read between the lines. It causes spellcasters to play second fidle to the meatshields, in certain parts. Its all about destorying Mystra's Weave. How the Weave causes Mystra to have a strangle hold on magic. It's designed to show the casters of arcane magic how dependant they were on Mystra and her Weave. I have all three mods, and that was the conclusion I came to after some serious thought on the matter.
-My
Playing second fiddle is one thing, making them completly useless is quite another. When a arcane spellcaster (not hybrid like the Duskblade) is reduced to using his crossbow or staff in melee without the use of any spells undermines the whole reason someone wants to play that particular class. In any event, the use of Reserve Feats is one way to go that makes an arcane spellcaster more useful for longer periods. I usually don't recommend Sorcerers to take reserve feats because it requires specific spells for repetitious effects (something sorcerers have no trouble with) but for this purpose, it's almost down right needed. Or, as the DM he could change the adventure to take down the reason for his spell-casting problems before entering the main part.
Playing second fiddle is one thing, making them completly useless is quite another. When a arcane spellcaster (not hybrid like the Duskblade) is reduced to using his crossbow or staff in melee without the use of any spells undermines the whole reason someone wants to play that particular class.
-Nobody purposely chooses a particular class or another knowing that they are going to be ineffective. During this particular portion of the adventure, they are. Personally speaking, it happens, and again, personally speaking, too bad. During NASCAR races, they don't stop everybody when someone is refueling. Some cars get ahead, and some slip behind. Not that I particularly follow NASCAR, but...
-Once they leave that particular part of the adventure, the magician is back to being the class-that-breaks-all-of-the-rules-and-is-overpowered-and-unbalances-the-game, right? :P
-Once they leave that particular part of the adventure, the magician is back to being the class-that-breaks-all-of-the-rules-and-is-overpowered-and-unbalances-the-game, right?
In this trilogy of super adventures, the wiz/sorc seems to always be at a disadvantage Karsus.
In Cormyr there were certain undead that causes a caster to lose a spell whenever they're within 10 feet. Then you enter the shadow plane where fire/light spells require a DC 20 concentration check to cast, then when you fight the BBEG a black dragon named Despayr, he attunes a ritual to suppress your magic, requiring a DC 20 concentration check to cast any spell from the 3 schools of magic he chose to suppress.
In Shadowdale it starts out with casting evoc/transmutation spells at -4 caster level, all other spells at -1. As time goes on, or you get closer to the ritual site, evoc/trans spells stop working altogether, other spells at -2 caster level, then when you finally get to the ritual site its a complete dead magic zone. You can end the ritual about halfway through the campaign though, and from that point on go about your casting unmolested.
I haven't read Anauroch yet, but I flipped through the intro to the book, and it also contains a ritual to suppress the weave.
These 3 campaigns are supposed to take characters from level 4 to 17. So it is quite a long time for a wiz/sorc to go while feeling usless.
...then when you fight the BBEG a black dragon named Despayr...
-Just had to point out, geeze...Is this corny or what?
-Anyway, if that all is the case, then ad lib something to "balance out" the Sorcerer character- maybe, perhaps, the character, from being exposed to all of these Anti-Magic/Magical suppression fields and such, has gained a few Psionic powers, all of which ignore things that effect the Weave.
-I am going to run these adventures one day. But I am not going to kill off Mystra in my 3.5 Realms. I will have her merge the Weaves to weaken Shar. Yet it will also weaken her.
- I can see why a player would get frustrated. The "ap" does its job. I am not trying to say their is some sinister motives going on, yet most of the Developers/designers probably knew what was going to happen in the BIG PICTURE with Mystra anyways.
-My
18DELTA ;)
-IMO the designers made the "AP" to forshadow Mystra's death. They made it to where new player's and dm's would start to think that the Weave is a hindrance. I mean in these adventures the Weave is a hindrance. I liked the Idea about the Reserve Feats. I never thought about it that way.
I completely agree, and it's basically why I never ran them. I bought them all, but was pretty disappointed with the gimping of specific PCs in this manner. Classes dependent on the Weave are not entirely useless in these adventures but are pretty close. Because of this, the shades/shadowvar are overpowered in this respect, unless you specifically require your players to use classes or builds that are dependent more on the shadow weave.
Diffan's idea was an excellent one, though, and would be one way of rescuing this trio of adventures.
These 3 campaigns are supposed to take characters from level 4 to 17. So it is quite a long time for a wiz/sorc to go while feeling usless.
He wouldn't feel useless with different spells - more specifically, different schools.
Give the player the option to switch some spells from a different school. Maybe Mystra grants him the ability, or the change in the Weave allows him to pick up on residual energies (maybe necromancy or illusion).
Gomez
-Just had to point out, geeze...Is this corny or what?
It is.
And I agree that putting wizards and sorcerers at a disadvantage from levels 4-17 is way over the top. I think the fact that you'd need ad hoc divine intervention to circumvent that says something.
The Evoker, on the otherhand, used the reserve feats to struggle his way through. He was a little upset in the beginning, but once he received Sylune's Kiss and halted the unraveling, everything worked out in the end.
Also, the mystic Theurge took one level of fighter in order that he, in the very least, was able to swing a sword in combat should he be unable to cast some spells.
On a side note, one of my players looked at the cover of Anauroch and screamed "I'm not fighting a
prince!" -- Aren't they precious?Bad adventure design ftw? Mind you this campaign is still easier to run than City of the Spider Queen (also known as, City of the TPK).
Weird. My group is currently at Castle Maerymydra and we only where once in risk of loosing one of the characters (an almost Vorpal hit from the Balor). The rest of the time was a piece of cake for all (fun times though, the purple worms in the path to maerymydra swallowed one of the characters who was lucky to have found a magic dagger a little before and do all the damage needed to get out in one round). We are waiting to get out of the underdark to see how each one of us looks like in daylight (almost a month under the earth without sun)
-IMO the designers made the "AP" to forshadow Mystra's death. They made it to where new player's and dm's would start to think that the Weave is a hindrance. I mean in these adventures the Weave is a hindrance. I liked the Idea about the Reserve Feats. I never thought about it that way.
-I am going to run these adventures one day. But I am not going to kill off Mystra in my 3.5 Realms. I will have her merge the Weaves to weaken Shar. Yet it will also weaken her.
- I can see why a player would get frustrated. The "ap" does its job. I am not trying to say their is some sinister motives going on, yet most of the Developers/designers probably knew what was going to happen in the BIG PICTURE with Mystra anyways.
-My
18DELTA ;)
-Iiiinnnnteresting.
It is.
-Good to know I'm not the only one.
I wonder what they will do with the sorcerer in the PHB2, whether they are influenced by the Pathfinder sorcerer and its bloodlines
-The Pathfinder is using 'Bloodline' "feats"? Cool. I was in the process of implementing different kinds of 'Bloodlines' into my own homebrew remake of the Sorcerer.
-That said, are there other 'Bloodline' "feats" anywhere? I recall someone mentioning something somewhere...
18DELTA
-Complete Mage LK.
18DELTA
-Thank you.
-The Pathfinder is using 'Bloodline' "feats"? Cool. I was in the process of implementing different kinds of 'Bloodlines' into my own homebrew remake of the Sorcerer.
Pathfinder does not just use bloodline feats. It intergrates bloodlines as a core class feature.
Pathfinder does not just use bloodline feats. It intergrates bloodlines as a core class feature.
right. For example, at some level (10th I think), a sorcerer with a draconic bloodline gets a breath weapon and later grows wings. There are all sorts of bloodlines and depending on them you get bonus spells and feats along with the abilities as described. Its interesting and makes them very different from wizards.
Pathfinder does not just use bloodline feats. It intergrates bloodlines as a core class feature.
-Same difference.
-Same difference.
not really no
-Truthfully speaking, I don't even know what the ones in Complete Mage look like. That said, I am assuming they are like the ones I created for the Kara-Tur Re-Dux, the Oni-bloodline Sorcerer, and the Lung-bloodline Sorcerer, are exactly what are described: Staring with a specific bloodline, they grow and apotheosize as the class progresses.
show off
-Or artistic genius. You decide.
the 2 are not mutually exclusive
-But, they both might apply.
hence not mutually exclusive
I do hope the 4e sorcerer takes its que from Pathfinder
I do hope the 4e sorcerer takes its que from Pathfinder
-I'm thinking probably not. They seem to be going in another direction.
-I'm thinking probably not. They seem to be going in another direction.
why do you say that?
why do you say that?
-I could have sworn we've had this conversation before...
-Anyway, the 4e Sorcerer, from the preview material, seems very much to be a caster who thrives on the unintentional/random side-effects his/her spells. For example, gaining the benefits of a Fire Shield after casting Fireball. Things like that. The Sorcerer presented in the Pathfinder PDF didn't really seem to follow suit.
I think he will have a wild mage feel.
-Yes, that's the feel I got: A "Rage Mage".
Well I think the 4E sorcerer may not be bloodline related.
Which is a good thing seeing how the Sorcerer is a class not race, something that endless authors of Paizo's Dragon, and authors of Tome and Blood, Races of the Dragon, and other sources could not seem to comprehend.
Your character can choose to become a sorcerer at any time in the course of the game, and that choice is made in character as well as outside of the game by that character's player. By contrast, your character does not get the in-game opportunity to suddenly choose his race or ancestry on a whim
A sorcerer is a mage class with an intuitive, self-taught bent. The notion that some sorcerers may have inherited their powers from draconic, monstrous, or extraplanar ancestry does not in turn mean that all sorcerers did, nor does it mean that the core class rules should be clogged with ancestry options that could just as easily (and should) be available to any class. Just because some wizards were apprenticed by Elminster does not mean that the wizard core class needs to include that as one of a myriad of origin options in its rules text, or grant you a spellfire breath weapon because of it.
Which is a good thing seeing how the Sorcerer is a class not race, something that endless authors of Paizo's Dragon, and authors of Tome and Blood, Races of the Dragon, and other sources could not seem to comprehend.
Your character can choose to become a sorcerer at any time in the course of the game, and that choice is made in character as well as outside of the game by that character's player. By contrast, your character does not get the in-game opportunity to suddenly choose his race or ancestry on a whim
A sorcerer is a mage class with an intuitive, self-taught bent. The notion that some sorcerers may have inherited their powers from draconic, monstrous, or extraplanar ancestry does not in turn mean that all sorcerers did, nor does it mean that the core class rules should be clogged with ancestry options that could just as easily (and should) be available to any class. Just because some wizards were apprenticed by Elminster does not mean that the wizard core class needs to include that as one of a myriad of origin options in its rules text, or grant you a spellfire breath weapon because of it.
-The gist behind it is that, somewhere in your ancestry, your character has X blood, and as a result, is able to touch the Weave in the first place. Without X blood, you wouldn't be able to touch the Weave, and thus, become a Sorcerer. Thus, it's "mandated".
From the Pathfinder Alpha 3:
Arcane
Your family has always been skilled in the art of magic. While
many of your relatives were accomplished wizards, your
powers developed without the need for study and practice.
Bonus Spells: identify (3rd), invisibility (5th), dispel
magic (7th), dimension door (9th), overland flight (11th), true
seeing (13th), greater teleport (15th), power word stun (17th),
wish (19th).
Bloodline Powers:
Extra Spell at levels 9, 13 and 17th levels.
+2 to any school, stackable with Spell Focus at lvl 15.
Use Metamagic without increasing casting time with any combination at lvl 20
I'm loving the Elemental Bloodline, it's almost having the Elemental Savant PrC. It would be nice to convert a lot of Spellcaster PrCs into something that works like that.
-I could have sworn we've had this conversation before...
-
you might be right. we have had so many
you might be right. we have had so many
-We do...We do...
A sorcerer is a mage class with an intuitive, self-taught bent. The notion that some sorcerers may have inherited their powers from draconic, monstrous, or extraplanar ancestry does not in turn mean that all sorcerers did...
I agree with this. I've always seen the "dragonblood" (or any other special type of blood) stuff as a possible origin for sorcerous powers, but certainly not the only one.
I agree with this. I've always seen the "dragonblood" (or any other special type of blood) stuff as a possible origin for sorcerous powers, but certainly not the only one.
Yea, totally agree. This is what changes I made to my sorcerer class to give it a little more flavor....
Sorcerer: Sorcerers manipulate their innate magic through their force of will and determination. At 2nd level, sorcerers gain Metamagic Specialist (player's handbook 2) without the loss of their familiar. Also, sorcerers gain additional feats. At 1st level, they gain Eschew Materials. At 4th level and every 5 levels afterward (9th, 14th, and 19th) they gain a bonus feat that can be taken from the Heritage Feat or Metamagic Feat list. They must still meet the prereqs for the feat.
In addition, familiars gain power equal to their master's caster level rather than wiz/sor level and if they die, their casters gain a -1 penalty to their caster level for all various level effects instead of losing XP. They can regain their familiar after a short ritual (usually as they prepare for spells) that consists of 50 gp in materials. As they advance in caster-levels, they can change their familiar for one of greater strength with lesser abilities (think druid's companion). Cantrips and Orisions for wiz/sor and clerics are now At-will spells.
I agree with this. I've always seen the "dragonblood" (or any other special type of blood) stuff as a possible origin for sorcerous powers, but certainly not the only one.
-What would be another reason, then? Asides for Dragonblood, Fiendblood, and so on?
Elfblood, feyblood, elementalblood, celestialblood being destined for it or being part of a family of wizards where that kind of power changes them over time, and so on.
-Those include the "and so on", except for the latter explanation.
-What would be another reason, then? Asides for Dragonblood, Fiendblood, and so on?
A gift from the setting's deity of magic.
And that's just one off the top of my head. I'm sure I could come up with more.A gift from the setting's deity of magic.
-What if you're from a setting that doesn't have a deity of magic? But, regardless, this goes back to Simbul's argument that the class shouldn't influence the race.
-What if you're from a setting that doesn't have a deity of magic?
I guess it could be from some other deity, then.
Like I said, it'd be a blessing bestowed on the individual--it wouldn't have to do with that person's bloodline and wouldn't necessarily be passed on to their children.-Still's transforming/altering your base race! :P
so?
so?
-I, personally, don't care. I like it. But the Simbul was complaining about it. See a few posts back.
-I, personally, don't care. I like it. But the Simbul was complaining about it. See a few posts back.
oh yeah. I don't read I guess. Sorry
-Oh, you big lug.
He just wants some Sister attention.
He just wants some Sister attention.
-What are you waiting for, then?
-What are you waiting for, then?
Their hundreds of years old, I'd prefer not...
Their hundreds of years old, I'd prefer not...
experience
experience
True, plus you literally have a guardian angel watching over you in case something happens if it goes long term.
Now that I think about it, that Laeral is now single, and lonely too...:embarrass
Now that I think about it, that Laeral is now single, and lonely too...:embarrass
aren't they all dead?
aren't they all dead?
We don't know that yet.
The number of years doesn't matters if they are still beautiful. Give me some sister love :D
well, sure. But aren't they all dead?
well, sure. But aren't they all dead?
-Some are, some aren't. And, I had no clue that you were talking about the Seven Sisters until like three posts into it.
well, sure. But aren't they all dead?
No, six live and one is undead. Spellplague you say? Never heard of that.
No, six live and one is undead. Spellplague you say? Never heard of that.
I like that answer.:P
I think Laeral, Alustriel, the Simbul, Dove and Storm will all still be around. I would expect them to be a bit more settled though, Dove and Storm in Myth Drannor, Laeral in Rhymanthiin. I'd rather see the Simbul go back to her completely unaligned psycho days as well.
I expect them all to be dead
Spiffy things, each stores a series of themed spells, and you can sacrifice spell slots of the appropriate level to power the spells, rather than using your own roster of spells.
-Thank you.
I think Laeral, Alustriel, the Simbul, Dove and Storm will all still be around. I would expect them to be a bit more settled though, Dove and Storm in Myth Drannor, Laeral in Rhymanthiin.
Well, those three were all pretty "settled", before, just in different places.
and good riddance by the way
I'm not sure why the death of Mystra wouldn't kill them
-Because Chosen of Mystra are people, too? They already lived through the death of Mystra once, so, this is, you know, same-ol, same-ol, for them.
-Because Chosen of Mystra are people, too? They already lived through the death of Mystra once, so, this is, you know, same-ol, same-ol, for them.
yeah but Mystra is sustaining there hundreds of years of existence and there is no new Mystra to take her place
yeah but Mystra is sustaining there hundreds of years of existence and there is no new Mystra to take her place
-Right. But, they all survived the period of time in between when Mystra died and when Midnight became Mystra.
Depends on what happens with the Silver Fire when she dies... I guess. Presuming that isn't retconned out of existance.
-Silver Fire should theoretically remain. It's a portion of Mystra's divinity that's independent of her, so...And, again, it remained while she was dead, so...
What I was thinking as well. Should theoretically be able to kick-start the Weave again, at least that's what I thought it was for in the first place... unless that gets retconned down the toilet, like so many other things.
I'd be very surprised if it wasn't.
What I was thinking as well. Should theoretically be able to kick-start the Weave again, at least that's what I thought it was for in the first place... unless that gets retconned down the toilet, like so many other things.
-Wouldn't be the first thing to be eliminated, for the sake of not having a headache on your hand at some point in the future.
I'd be very surprised if it wasn't.
So would I... which I find disappointing for many reasons. Ah well, vote with your dollar and all that.
I will indeed do that.
-Right. But, they all survived the period of time in between when Mystra died and when Midnight became Mystra.
yeah, but that wasn't a hundred plus years. Wouldn't they be human now and long since dead?
yeah, but that wasn't a hundred plus years. Wouldn't they be human now and long since dead?
-They're still Humans, even with Mystra's Silverfire in them. That's what sustains them, and since, in theory, the Silverfire should continue to exist within the Chosen of Mystra, they should continue to live.
-They're still Humans, even with Mystra's Silverfire in them. That's what sustains them, and since, in theory, the Silverfire should continue to exist within the Chosen of Mystra, they should continue to live.
Actually, I don't think so. In one of the Return of the Archwizards novels, silver fire was described as being composed of pure Weave energy. When Elminster vaporized one of the shade princes, he used silver fire - and the interaction of pure Weave magic and shadow magic caused a tear in the fabric of the planes. He had to go through to the other side (one of the nine hells), in order to seal it (and he had to be rescued by the Simbul, eventually, since he burned out all of his magic). I think it says something to the effect of "the multiverse would unravel" if silver fire and shadow magic interacted on a really large scale.
So in 4E Realms, since the Weave is completely gone (in theory), silver fire should also be gone. What the Chosen of Mystra might retain, I'd imagine, would be her deific energy and (her) memories related to the power of the goddess. But arguably, that might be gone as well, if the power she lent to them was intimately linked with her existence. Depends on what the designers have worked out for her, more than anything else.
But arguably, that might be gone as well, if the power she lent to them was intimately linked with her existence.
You have it exactly backwards. As we saw in the Shadow of the Avatar books and elsewhere, Mystra's Chosen retain part of her divine power, which is the silver fire (see e.g. The Seven Sisters p. 6), upon her death, so that Mystra/the Weave can be reconstructed. Wizards just ignored this because they wanted Mystra gone.
You have it exactly backwards. As we saw in the Shadow of the Avatar books and elsewhere, Mystra's Chosen retain part of her divine power, which is the silver fire (see e.g. The Seven Sisters p. 6), upon her death, so that Mystra/the Weave can be reconstructed. Wizards just ignored this because they wanted Mystra gone.
No, I don't have it "backwards" - you're making an assumption based on previous deaths of Mystra. At no time before, even with Mystra's previous deaths (or her brief time on Faerun during the ToT, has the Weave been utterly destroyed. Silver fire -is- pure Weave, and it can reconstruct Weave-dead areas and reacts very violently with shadow Weave. With the Weave gone, silver fire should also be gone (if for nothing more than consistency). The portion of Mystra's divine power that is shared with her Chosen is more than just silver fire, it also includes memories and divine power.
Again, silver fire and Mystra's divine essence aren't distinct.
Realmslore says that the Weave can't be irrevocably destroyed unless Mystra's Chosen are. If the new lore says something fundamentally different happened this time -- and I haven't read that claimed, let alone explained -- these workings have already been retconned and it hardly matters, in terms of consistency, how they have the rest of it work.
Again, silver fire and Mystra's divine essence aren't distinct.
We know that both the Weave and the Shadow Weave are destroyed in 4E. We -also- know that silver fire is pure Weave energy. If the Weave is gone, there's no logical reason why silver fire would still exist.
Much like spellfire, silver fire is an ability that shapes raw magic. Raw magic exists without the Weave, by both 3E and 4E canon. Spellfire is the ability or talent to shape raw magic (but isn't raw magic itself, nor is it Weave energy), which is probably why it still exists in 4E. Silver fire, however, is Weave, and if the Weave is gone, it only makes logical sense that silver fire is gone with it. It's already been retconned/modified in 3E to say that the Weave was not magic itself but rather a sort of overlay, or tool (perhaps "engine", if you will).
Finally, we know that Mystryl (way back when) -created- the Weave, so she was fully distinct from its existence. She existed before it did, because she created it, therefore they're separate. That said, the Weave couldn't exist on its own without her, which seems to be why it was destroyed when she died. She maintained it, fixing it here and there as needed (her Chosen often repaired it using silver fire, filling the cracks as it were). The Weave was therefore dependent on her, but she wasn't dependent on the Weave (because she created it, and existed before it did).
If the Weave is gone, there's no logical reason why silver fire would still exist.
Mystra gave her Chosen some of her divine essence, the silver fire, precisely because it does still exist if she, that is the Weave, is destroyed. That's what the sources say. Anything else, without some further explanation, is retcon by definition.
Much like spellfire, silver fire is an ability that shapes raw magic. Raw magic exists without the Weave, by both 3E and 4E canon.
The term 'raw magic' is hardly used in Realmslore. The silver fire is a divine mystery; its exact nature, and relationship to a theoretical raw magic, hasn't been defined. Certainly the many vivid descriptions of the silver fire give no hint that it's not really essential but just a manifestation of something else. It could be. But this is all speculation.
Spellfire is the ability or talent to shape raw magic (but isn't raw magic itself, nor is it Weave energy), which is probably why it still exists in 4E.
Don't you think it's more likely that the designers thought spellfire was a nice power and then used or ignored the lore to facilitate that, as above?
It's already been retconned/modified in 3E to say that the Weave was not magic itself but rather a sort of overlay, or tool (perhaps "engine", if you will).
In the Realms as I understand it, neither of those is exactly true. There's magic outside the Weave, but the Weave is intimately connected to magic (Mystra is the goddess of 'magic', after all, not just 'the Weave'), which is more than a simple, separate interface.
Finally, we know that Mystryl (way back when) -created- the Weave, so she was fully distinct from its existence. She existed before it did, because she created it, therefore they're separate.
That's one human-told story about a cosmic event that took place outside of time. Realmslore is perfectly, repeatedly explicit on the identity of the Weave and Mystra.
...In the Realms as I understand it, neither of those is exactly true. (...) Realmslore is perfectly, repeatedly explicit on the identity of the Weave and Mystra.
Realmslore is explicit on these things, yes, and I am both logically and factually correct about everything I'm saying. In your arguments, you've made several assumptions that are incorrect. Sorry, but there it is. No offense intended.
If silver fire exists post-spellplague, then the designers have made a mistake based on the lore given to date - or they're introducing an odd retcon which none of us yet know about.
What incorrect assumptions?
For one, your statement that "Realmslore says that the Weave can't be irrevocably destroyed unless Mystra's Chosen are".
In 4E, we know for a fact that both the Weave and Shadow Weave are destroyed, and Elminster still exists. Others of her chosen may have also survived the destruction of the weave, but it is gone.
How do we know that the Weave is destroyed? They used 3rd person omniscient verification. They didn't say "the Weave is believed destroyed", and they didn't use 1st person (which is fallible, and open to interpretation).
That's not an assumption, I just wasn't absolutely exact. By 'Realmslore' there I obviously mean Realmslore before the new events -- of course the new lore differs, that's why it either contains a retcon or is missing an explanation, an additional outside factor, for why Mystra's self-defence mechanism couldn't be, or wasn't, used.
The entire conversation we were having was about post-spellplague silver fire.
Bel
In my opinion the only reason there was no Spellplague when Mystra was killed previously...
-...Is because no one thought of resetting the setting, at that time? ;)
-...Is because no one thought of resetting the setting, at that time? ;)
That's my take on the matter, for sure.
That's my take on the matter, for sure.
-Mine too.
Guess what? The Spellplague DID happen before, at least twice that we know of, BUT there as one MAJOR difference those other two times - this time, the very 'essence' of Mystra was destroyed - she was killed on her home plane.
Case #1: Karsus did NOT kill Mystryl - she killed HERSELF. He did NOT become Mystra, or even the god of magic - canonically, he 'wrested' Mystra's power from her.
Ergo, she was like a puppet on a string, fully cognizant of what was happening to her, but unable to use her own power (which Karsus was using through her). Fully realizing that Karsus' mortal mind would be unable to handle the sudden influx of deific power, she sacrificed herself and allowed her divine essence to 'fall to earth', entering a simple girl in northern Cormyr (if I'm not mistaken). At NO point was her godly essence destroyed - she did the only thing she could do under the circumstances; destroy her physical form on the outer planes, thus severing the link. The initial onslaught of the Spellplague (just a name for what happened, coined later by the mortals of Faerûn) had begun, with Enclaves falling and some even blowing up - like the Sargauth Enclave in Undermountain. However, there was only a few moments while the Weave faltered (never completely coming down), so that event never recieved the notoriety of the later event.
Case #2: Learning from her first fall, the new Goddess Mystra (who was really just a reincarnation of the older Mystryl) placed portions of her divine essence within mortal vessels, like her Chosen and the Magister. however, some she kept secret, just in case, and even the person who held this part of her didn't know it at the time (this is what happened to Midnight).
When the ToT occurred, she was all prepared for someting like this... except Ao new she was prepared. The ToT is also known as The Avatar Crisis, for a VERY good reason. The gods didn't REALLY walk the earth, as Mortals assumed. Ao forced them to place a SMALL portion of their power in an earthly (Torillian) manifestation, while he kept the 'bulk' of their power (and their primary essence) locked away in the outer Planes, where these Manifestations couldn't reach it. How did Ao do that? There is VERY good reason he didn't take down the God Barrier of the Imaskari until IMMEDIATELY AFTER the ToT. You see, Ao truly is 'all knowing'. ;)
Anyhow, Those Avatars are what walked around during the ToT, and Mystra - being disconected from her main power - couldn't access any of the stored energy in her Chosen readily, and had to depend upon her 'hidden cache' in Midnight. The Chosen, in the meantime, maintained the Weave as best they could (mostly Elminster), but it did begin to 'frazzle' around the edges, just as it had begun to do when Netheril fell. had Mystra not had the forthought of storing some power in these Chosen, the same thing would have happened as did when she killed herself, and the Spellplague would have rolled over Toril then, as it did years later. Had Midnight not been made the Goddess of Magic at the end of the ToT, the Chosen would have eventually crumpled under the stress, and the Spellplague would have begun two decades sooner.
In both of those cases, Mystra/Mystryl had a 'plan', and made sure her power either failed only momentarillly (as it did in case #1), or was temporarily supported by a bulwark of Chosen (as it was in Case #2). The Wild magical surges and the Netherease Enclaves were just the beginnings of a Spellplague that never fully came into being.
Case #3: Mystra died, in her Home Plane, which means that NO essence of her was left to bring things back together. I assume she re-absorbed most - if not all - of her power during the battle with Shar and Cyric, because she would have needed it. Perhaps the only person left with a touch of this (the 'Silver Fire' we are discussing) was Elminster - all others were SUCKED DRY.
When she died, that power died with her, and this time there were no contingencies in place anymore (aside from El, who couldn't handle it alone, and nearly went insane). What began during Netheril's fall and the ToT was just a mere glimpse of what would happen if the Weave completely collapsed around Toril, and the mortals of the world finally learned full-well just how much of their lives the Lady of Mysterires touched.
Mystra is gone, and with her the Weave and the Spellfire that was it's physical manifestation. Perhaps Elminster can still call forth the Silver Fire, but to do so he must access the only surviving portion of Mystra still in existance, buried deep in his phsyche. He IS the last piece of the Weave in existance, but to use his powers in any meaningful manner, he would hve to call forth all that which was lost that lies within him...
and his grief would drive him mad for all eterninty.
Case #3: Mystra died, in her Home Plane, which means that NO essence of her was left to bring things back together. I assume she re-absorbed most - if not all - of her power during the battle with Shar and Cyric, because she would have needed it. Perhaps the only person left with a touch of this (the 'Silver Fire' we are discussing) was Elminster - all others were SUCKED DRY.
When she died, that power died with her, and this time there were no contingencies in place anymore (aside from El, who couldn't handle it alone, and nearly went insane). What began during Netheril's fall and the ToT was just a mere glimpse of what would happen if the Weave completely collapsed around Toril, and the mortals of the world finally learned full-well just how much of their lives the Lady of Mysterires touched.
Mystra is gone, and with her the Weave and the Spellfire that was it's physical manifestation. Perhaps Elminster can still call forth the Silver Fire, but to do so he must access the only surviving portion of Mystra still in existance, buried deep in his phsyche. He IS the last piece of the Weave in existance, but to use his powers in any meaningful manner, he would hve to call forth all that which was lost that lies within him...
and his grief would drive him mad for all eterninty.
-This.