I don't think I have much of a problem with the race in general though. Being a (former?) DragonLance fan, I can sort of dig it.
As a race, I love the Dragonborn and feel alot of good story potential.
As a race for stats, I hate it when my player's Dragonborn pally shifts and whipes out the minions i had on him. (this has happened twice)
-Merrik, just remember one thing. A region that was cited as not exactly 'fitting' into the Realms, Unther (and I disagree, but...), is being "fixed" by being replaced by...a region that doesn't exactly fit in the Realms. I think that's telling to what's going on here. ;)
What do we think of their introduction in the Realms (I think I know what I will hear on this) and what do we think about the race in general. Keep in mind I am still awaiting my books from amazon
I loathe the dragonborn, and the ham-handed way they were pasted on top of the Realms.
For people who wanted to play that sort of thing in the Realms, have them portal in from another world or something. Would've made more sense than what they've done.
Why had they choose Unther to transpose?! Though I thankfully see the whole thing is not a retcon of Unther always being a nest of frikkin lizards, I really feel for all the NPC's and people in Chessenta and Unther who'll get hit by the spellplague AND are going to get transposed to a freakish outworld.
Well, we dont even know what happens to mulhorand but my bet the Yuanti rule there now, behind the scenes. The first thing those Yuanti are going to do is asurp the Dragonborn, and I hope they wiped them out. The regular mulhorandi led by godkings would have done that to them too.
Ack!
For people who wanted to play that sort of thing in the Realms, have them portal in from another world or something. Would've made more sense than what they've done.
-Well, that's exactly what happened. Except...in an...official...sense...
Well, we dont even know what happens to mulhorand but my bet the Yuanti rule there now, behind the scenes. The first thing those Yuanti are going to do is asurp the Dragonborn, and I hope they wiped them out. The regular mulhorandi led by godkings would have done that to them too.
-Slavery...;)
-Well, that's exactly what happened. Except...in an...official...sense...
You know what I mean... a simple portal that leads to some ancient ruins or something, not a whole nation gated in and pasted haphazardly atop Unther with Elmer's school glue.
You know what I mean... a simple portal that leads to some ancient ruins or something, not a whole nation gated in and pasted haphazardly atop Unther with Elmer's school glue.
-At least they're not something worse, right?
-At least they're not something worse, right?
Like teletubbies? ;)
What do we think of their introduction in the Realms (I think I know what I will hear on this) and what do we think about the race in general. Keep in mind I am still awaiting my books from amazon
I like the race in general, but I don't care for how they were introduced into the Realms.
... a simple portal that leads to some ancient ruins or something, not a whole nation gated in and pasted haphazardly atop Unther with Elmer's school glue.
That'd be fine--world-hopping is an established trope in the Realms. I'd like Tymanther as a separate world connected to the Realms via a portal.
You know what I mean... a simple portal that leads to some ancient ruins or something, not a whole nation gated in and pasted haphazardly atop Unther with Elmer's school glue.
Or maybe opening up a dark portal to the distant Outlands of another planet...............sounds strikingly familiar, like WoW. For me, phasing planes of existance, introposed onto other planes isn't that hard for me to accept. I do however read many Magic: The Gathering novels and that happens more than you might think.
Or maybe opening up a dark portal to the distant Outlands of another planet...............sounds strikingly familiar, like WoW. For me, phasing planes of existance, introposed onto other planes isn't that hard for me to accept. I do however read many Magic: The Gathering novels and that happens more than you might think.
I know, it does seem very Warcraft. But, the original concept of the Realms is that it had portals to other worlds (i.e. Elminster's visits to Earth in Dragon's "Pages to the Mages", long ago). The idea that most of those portals and connections to other worlds were "forgotten" was the reason Ed called it the Forgotten Realms. I just wish they did something less... blatantly "plop down replacement" and went with something that followed the core idea of the Realms.
I like the race in general, but I don't care for how they were introduced into the Realms.
This is pretty much how I feel about it. In fact, if I had to choose something I don't like about 4E Realms it would be the "Let's replace whole parts of Faerun with Abeir" part. I *like* the Unther/Mulhorand region. Hell, I even *like* Maztica. But I like enough of the rest of the new realms to put up with it. I'll get used to it eventually.
On a side note: My fiancee and my friend are playing Dragonborn in our current runthrough of Keep on the Shadowfell. I'm not doing the realms conversion for it, just running it as written. I like the race a lot from a gameplay standpoint. The breath weapon is cool and useful without being overpowering.
Thanks
You guys obviously know the source material but I was wondering, where exactly can I read about the Dragonborn's intro to the realms? What novels/game books are they mentioned in?
Thanks
One of the Countdown to the Realms articles
For people who wanted to play that sort of thing in the Realms, have them portal in from another world or something. Would've made more sense than what they've done.
But where are they coming from? And, if people like them, what do we do—create another world? No, lets just portal their entire kingdom in from someplace else!!
I see where you are at with this, but I, once again, see this as nothing more than marketing strategy than strategic design.
Not that I have a strong opinion or anything. ;)
And I had over 100 lashes last session to prove this point, people!
They could've and should've used the Saurials and rewrote their history, like the did for everything else for their new game setting. Wouldn't have like that either but it would've been a tad more feasible.
This has been discussed and I still don’t see it being any more practical than dropping them in Unther. Just me.
I vow all my characters gonna try to slay all dragonborn they are going to meet. Stinking lizards... Probably members of up to no good Cult of the Dragon or Tiamat worshippers infiltrating adventuring parties as a plot to give wealth and magic items by eventually turning on them all at once.
Well, apparently they hate dragons and have been at war with them for years. Neither seems likely.
Wouldn’t you prefer to pet the nice Dragonborn? Yes?
On a side note: My fiancee and my friend are playing Dragonborn in our current runthrough of Keep on the Shadowfell. I'm not doing the realms conversion for it, just running it as written. I like the race a lot from a gameplay standpoint. The breath weapon is cool and useful without being overpowering.
I hope your fiancé got boobs. All good Dragonborn should get boobs. :D
As a side note, I would like to point out that trying to work off unsecured wireless networks because you let your cable get shut off absolutely, positively,
sux!!! 
One of the Countdown to the Realms articles
Awesome, thanks Merrik! Found it here ( http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080111a ) if anyone else was a clueless as I
. I was already thinking of a campaign-centric way to introduce them to my realms game somewhat along the lines of a prophecy or some such and I think I may use this event but just make it seem not quite as random as the designers have.I see where you are at with this, but I, once again, see this as nothing more than marketing strategy than strategic design.
Well, yeah. We sorta all knew that, hehe. ;)
And I had over 100 lashes last session to prove this point, people!
Hey, you had a safe word. And you could've used it anytime. I'm completely capable of understanding muffled speech through a gag, and you were clearly saying, "oh yeah! more!" Anyway, it was a silk whip, which is more like a tickle and a caress. ;)
I hope your fiancé got boobs. All good Dragonborn should get boobs. :D
Dragon boobs are sooooo last month's topic. ;)
-Was the "Dragonborn Boobs" debate ever solved?
Yeah. They have them. Whippeeee
But as far as that goes these times in the realms are a changin'.
We had Tieflings every now and again but far and few between. Now there might be a whole group of them adventuring throught Waterdeep like Waterhaven Nobles. I do feel this Spell Plague eating at my mind.
Are Chromatic Dragons always evil now? Are the Metallic Types open to evil? Haven't heard....
Maybe they're all unaligned...... I confused again:D
I like the race in general, but I don't care for how they were introduced into the Realms.
Same here
And I wouldn't have minded if the Dragonborn of Former-Unther were the result of Tiamats manipulations in the area. Abeir and the Spellplague are just overkill (that hopefully will be retconned as deceptiv illusions of Shar/Cyric in 1 or 2 years).
Best wishes
Lirdolin
Well, apparently they hate dragons and have been at war with them for years. Neither seems likely.
Wouldn’t you prefer to pet the nice Dragonborn? Yes?
After I skinned them of their scaly hides I might try some petting.
Seriously. My characters have always hated being in a party with monstrous members. They get unwanted attention just by walking the streets, have stupid eating habits and usually cant behave infront of important NPC's. All so this one player gets to abuse a few plusses on their strength score or can wield stupidly large weapons. (ever seen what a copy of the complete book of humanoids does to your adventuring party?! a frikkin aaracocra PC next to a gnoll and a Firbolg and there you are being a elf...)
Dragonborn have a lot of things that make them annoying. A creature who can't express his emotions through his stiff carapace of its face, can't pronounce half of the normal common words through its beak because the lack of lips, that sheds a scaly skin every few months, is egg laying but has BOOBS, has a stomach able to produce energy wich they vomit (ewww!), and looks exactly like a lizardfolk but claims to be more intelligent and a descendant of dragons? Where are its wings? I HATE Dragonborn. Draconians make more sense (and should not be trusted in a party either).
And the dragonborn are here just to replace the half orcs as the party brutes. Half orcs have my preferance as a partymember as they can pronounce my characters name through their tusks better, and are actually allowed in most areas. Gonna make realmsian commoners react very aggresive against Dragonborn that's for sure.
I like the race in general, but I don't care for how they were introduced into the Realms.
Same here
Me too. I'd love their description in Classes and Races... the honor, solitary and tellers things. Although I admit its inclusion in the Realms is/was very difficult.
PD: Yeah, I don't want to play them:
* If I want to look like a dragon.
* If I want to breath energy from my mouth.
:D
And yet, 4e's Dragonborn ignore most or all the previous lore and RP presented for such races, even in recent WotC sourcebooks. They could have been more generic half-dragons, adaptable to half-breeds, Tiamat spawn, and so on, and whatever a PC wants to play and how a campaign world is set up.
But no. They ignored the easy non-destructive option and dropped an entire fricking kingdom of core-world flavoured Dragonborn on FR. They still don't even quite match core-world flavour, which has them as wandering clans from a long-fallen kingdom, not a currently standing one.
There were so many existing opportunities for dragon-people in the Realms already: Saurials (as mentioned above, I know nothing about them), Half-Dragons, humanoid Spawn Of Tiamat, Dragonkin (Monsters Of Faerun). Not to mention similar races in core material: original Dragonborn, Spellscales, Dragonblooded races, and many more.
And yet, 4e's Dragonborn ignore most or all the previous lore and RP presented for such races, even in recent WotC sourcebooks. They could have been more generic half-dragons, adaptable to half-breeds, Tiamat spawn, and so on, and whatever a PC wants to play and how a campaign world is set up.
But no. They ignored the easy non-destructive option and dropped an entire fricking kingdom of core-world flavoured Dragonborn on FR. They still don't even quite match core-world flavour, which has them as wandering clans from a long-fallen kingdom, not a currently standing one.
Exactly. A couple of pages in the FR Players Guide or Campaign Book explaining how saurials (or any of those races) are now commonly referred to as "dragonborn" or something would have more than sufficient
That's what I'm trying to point out...NOTHING they've done is practical ;)
-Yeah, well...
There were so many existing opportunities for dragon-people in the Realms already: Saurials (as mentioned above, I know nothing about them), Half-Dragons, humanoid Spawn Of Tiamat, Dragonkin (Monsters Of Faerun). Not to mention similar races in core material: original Dragonborn, Spellscales, Dragonblooded races, and many more.
And yet, 4e's Dragonborn ignore most or all the previous lore and RP presented for such races, even in recent WotC sourcebooks. They could have been more generic half-dragons, adaptable to half-breeds, Tiamat spawn, and so on, and whatever a PC wants to play and how a campaign world is set up.
But no. They ignored the easy non-destructive option and dropped an entire fricking kingdom of core-world flavoured Dragonborn on FR. They still don't even quite match core-world flavour, which has them as wandering clans from a long-fallen kingdom, not a currently standing one.
-Agreed 100%. When I first found out that Dragonborn were simply introduced by (literally) being dropped from the sky, my jaw dropped, I shook my head, and I was boggled.
I hope your fiancé got boobs. All good Dragonborn should get boobs. :D
Yes, her character does, in fact, have dracomams, lol. ;)
Hey, you had a safe word. And you could've used it anytime. I'm completely capable of understanding muffled speech through a gag, and you were clearly saying, "oh yeah! more!" Anyway, it was a silk whip, which is more like a tickle and a caress. ;)
I wasn’t saying, “Oh, yeah! More!”
I was saying, “Ow! You! Wh*re!
Dragon boobs are sooooo last month's topic. ;)
Baby, when you’re man, boobs are a topic everyday. ;)
It's not like the FR would have needed the Spellplague to get 'infected' with Dragonborn, because according to 'Dragons of Faerun pg. 98' followers of Bahamut were already transforming into Dragonborn after the Rage of Dragons(considering this, there might be another population of dragonborn in Damara, that grew from this transformed Dragonborn?)
And I wouldn't have minded if the Dragonborn of Former-Unther were the result of Tiamats manipulations in the area. Abeir and the Spellplague are just overkill (that hopefully will be retconned as deceptiv illusions of Shar/Cyric in 1 or 2 years).
If there isn’t a Bahamut/Tiamat connection to their appearance, I am going to be extremely disappointed. With his reemergence and her meddling in the area, it would add even more stupidity to the situation to leave their involvement out of it.
Seriously. My characters have always hated being in a party with monstrous members. They get unwanted attention just by walking the streets, have stupid eating habits and usually cant behave infront of important NPC's. All so this one player gets to abuse a few plusses on their strength score or can wield stupidly large weapons. (ever seen what a copy of the complete book of humanoids does to your adventuring party?! a frikkin aaracocra PC next to a gnoll and a Firbolg and there you are being a elf...)
Perhaps they are pushing for accepted diversity these days? Racial equality and such.
I wasn’t saying, “Oh, yeah! More!”
I was saying, “Ow! You! Wh*re!
Oh really? Hm. Details. I suppose I should switch to feather ticklers and just wear lace or something. But I do remember -you- specifically requested the leather/whip accoutrements, so... ;) Baby, when you’re man, boobs are a topic everyday. ;)
Oh yeah, I forget these things. :P
If there isn’t a Bahamut/Tiamat connection to their appearance, I am going to be extremely disappointed. With his reemergence and her meddling in the area, it would add even more stupidity to the situation to leave their involvement out of it.
Honestly, and getting back on topic, I really doubt that there will be. Have you seen the new 4E monster manual entry for dragonborn, or for that matter gnomes? Talk about minimal on the lore end. I strongly suspect that the campaign setting guide will also be rather minimalist on lore (except to mention the huge recent RSEs in passing, but without a huge amount of detail).
Perhaps they are pushing for accepted diversity these days? Racial equality and such.
I don't know. The new 4E Realms acts like it has schizophrenia, or it's on drugs. In some places, it's about diversity (orcs are now a semi-friendly race with their own kingdom in the North), yet in other places (like with the drow), there's a weird (and perhaps unintended) message that redemption involves changing one's skin color (!) from black to brown.
Self indulgence.
Have you seen the new 4E monster manual entry for dragonborn, or for that matter gnomes? Talk about minimal on the lore end. I strongly suspect that the campaign setting guide will also be rather minimalist on lore (except to mention the huge recent RSEs in passing, but without a huge amount of detail).
No, I haven't. But, then again, that is core. You'll want to keep things minimal so that whats written there doesn't encompass every setting they may be played in.
As from an FR point of view, I would imagine that dragonborn will get a bit more lore than the average whole, simply due to the fact that they have to be integrated into the setting far more than the rest of the races and nations.
I don't know. The new 4E Realms acts like it has schizophrenia, or it's on drugs. In some places, it's about diversity (orcs are now a semi-friendly race with their own kingdom in the North), yet in other places (like with the drow), there's a weird (and perhaps unintended) message that redemption involves changing one's skin color (!) from black to brown.
I was being sarcastic, doll. ;)
When humans can't accept one of their own, simply due to a magic scar one possesses, I don't see much hope for more enlightened views with other races.
Self indulgence.
But of course! Je ne vois pas le problème? ;)
No, I haven't. But, then again, that is core. You'll want to keep things minimal so that whats written there doesn't encompass every setting they may be played in. As from an FR point of view, I would imagine that dragonborn will get a bit more lore than the average whole, simply due to the fact that they have to be integrated into the setting far more than the rest of the races and nations.
I think you're more optimistic on that score than I am. ;)
I suspect that most of the new FRCG will be extremely minimalist. For one book, they have a lot of ground to cover, and most will be (I imagine) devoted to the changes all around different nations, including the underdark, not to mention the deities and all the new things. Dragonborn, I bet, will get 1-2 pages tops.
I was being sarcastic, doll. ;)
When humans can't accept one of their own, simply due to a magic scar one possesses, I don't see much hope for more enlightened views with other races.
Yeah, well, there is that.
But more generally, can you imagine a dragonborn walking down the streets of some Cormyrean city? It'll look -retarded- considering the theme of the Realms, and I can't imagine that the refined citizens there (or pretty much any other large Realms city) would be anything but uneasy. Monster characters are always trouble for a campaign that involves anything other than the Underdark, or those few weird nations that already have a high population of monstrous NPCs.
But of course! Je ne vois pas le problème? ;)
Peu le font quand ils ont le fouet.
I think you're more optimistic on that score than I am. ;)
I suspect that most of the new FRCG will be extremely minimalist. For one book, they have a lot of ground to cover, and most will be (I imagine) devoted to the changes all around different nations, including the underdark, not to mention the deities and all the new things. Dragonborn, I bet, will get 1-2 pages tops.
And is this so different that FRCG 3.0?
Yeah, well, there is that.
But more generally, can you imagine a dragonborn walking down the streets of some Cormyrean city? It'll look -retarded- considering the theme of the Realms, and I can't imagine that the refined citizens there (or pretty much any other large Realms city) would be anything but uneasy. Monster characters are always trouble for a campaign that involves anything other than the Underdark, or those few weird nations that already have a high population of monstrous NPCs.
No, I can’t see a dragonborn walking the streets alone in any city. But I can see them traveling in packs though. “Brigades,” you may say. At least from their point of view, they’ll realize that they are viewed as alien and, most likely, unwanted. When they do leave their own nation, they do so as an “army” for safety. I think the FRCG will make it a point that single adventuring dragonborn are extremely rare and that certain negatives—as been mentioned—will be placed on PC’s playing them.
Peu le font quand ils ont le fouet.
Muahahaha!
I mean, I'm -so- not like that. I'm just an angel, a petite flower!
And is this so different that FRCG 3.0?
Well, not for one book of course, but we in 2E and 3E have had access to all of this out of print background stuff, and new 3E regional sourcebooks, and tons of things that the 4E won't be publishing (or re-tooling for updates, even). Maybe they'll have new info or updates on DDI, but I'd bet they won't, or that it won't be a lot. DDI is such an ephemeral thing anyway.
No, I can’t see a dragonborn walking the streets alone in any city. But I can see them traveling in packs though. “Brigades,” you may say. At least from their point of view, they’ll realize that they are viewed as alien and, most likely, unwanted. When they do leave their own nation, they do so as an “army” for safety. I think the FRCG will make it a point that single adventuring dragonborn are extremely rare and that certain negatives—as been mentioned—will be placed on PC’s playing them.
Possibly, we'll see I guess.
I mean, I'm -so- not like that. I'm just an angel, a petite flower!
Um…ok.
Well, not for one book of course, but we in 2E and 3E have had access to all of this out of print background stuff, and new 3E regional sourcebooks, and tons of things that the 4E won't be publishing (or re-tooling for updates, even). Maybe they'll have new info or updates on DDI, but I'd bet they won't, or that it won't be a lot. DDI is such an ephemeral thing anyway.
That’s why I stayed away from anything but the FRCG. By the specific legacy left behind by those pieces in the guide that were represented in 2e and 3e material, there will be much less left needed to be said. For the new additions, such as dragonborn, Netheril, etc. there will need to be a bit more.
Possibly, we'll see I guess.
We will. But I have a feeling it will be correct. Their society as a whole functions like a military—and their lands aren’t even considered hostile grounds. It would be like they unwittingly invaded Iraq. How many soldiers you gonna let run off alone, doing Bejebuz knows what?
As much as my characters will loath them, Dragonborn are to be spoiling nobleman parties in the 15th century Realms. They will probably get extented lore in the Player Guide to Fearun to flesh out their culture.
Disagree and agree.
They will probably get extented lore in the Player Guide to Fearun to flesh out their culture.
Unfortunately, you are probably right
-Perhaps..."Their" idea of extended might mean like three pages instead of two, though. ;)
still 3 too many
There were so many existing opportunities for dragon-people in the Realms already: Saurials (as mentioned above, I know nothing about them), Half-Dragons, humanoid Spawn Of Tiamat, Dragonkin (Monsters Of Faerun). Not to mention similar races in core material: original Dragonborn, Spellscales, Dragonblooded races, and many more.
That's what I thought they might do when I first heard about the Dragonborn, but then I was wondering if they would change the race's personality from what's in the core player's handbook. Because if I'm not mistaken, most of the dragon-related races in Forgotten Realms are kind of evil. But the player's book describes Klingons... ahem, I mean "Dragonborn," as being all about honor. So I guess this is just their way of making the race fit with the way that the rest of D&D portrays Klingons. I mean Dragonborn. NOT Klingons.
I don't think Dragonborn are like Klingons though. Too good and paladin-y (they're the replacement LG role, now that Paladin was converted to a generic holy warrior).
Orcs will be like Klingons, I reckon. Tough, warlike, violent, occasionally deceitful or honourable. Say, weren't Orcs supposed to be core? That's why we got Obould's Kingdom of Many Arrows, and the race was to be civilised so folks accepted them. (Like the Dragon-people could have been.) Now they're in the Monster Manual. Of course, if they wanted to make Orcs core, they could have done that easily by keeping Airspur, rather than evicting the Orcs and moving in the Genasi for no good reason.
That's not a problem, especially given how retcon-happy they are. Ie, just say Bahamut created some good ones (apparently this already happened when 3.5 Dragonborn were added), and others converted, and you get a good mix of culturally and morally diverse dragon-people.
Works for me
I don't think Dragonborn are like Klingons though. Too good and paladin-y (they're the replacement LG role, now that Paladin was converted to a generic holy warrior).
Yes...and no. Unlike in 3E, the player races aren't assigned "alignment tendencies" (ie. elves are chaotic good, dwarves lawful good). I'd say most dragonborn are unaligned, just like most other people in the world, but you can still find plenty that are good (and yes, paladin-like) and evil.
Yes...and no. Unlike in 3E, the player races aren't assigned "alignment tendencies" (ie. elves are chaotic good, dwarves lawful good). I'd say most dragonborn are unaligned, just like most other people in the world, but you can still find plenty that are good (and yes, paladin-like) and evil.
I mus admit to never being a real fan of the alignment tendency thing. The fact is these are intelligent beings and there would be a wide range of values
I don't think Dragonborn are like Klingons though. Too good and paladin-y (they're the replacement LG role, now that Paladin was converted to a generic holy warrior).
Orcs will be like Klingons, I reckon. Tough, warlike, violent, occasionally deceitful or honourable.
Orcs kind of strike me as too chaotic to be good Klingons. Well, maybe Original Series Klingons. I was thinking more of the Next Generation Klingons, where they can't go for ten seconds without talking about their "warrior honor." To me, all of the stuff in the Dragonborn description about battlefield honor and the glory of their clan just screamed Klingon. But then, I don't want to turn this into a Star Trek nerd-out session. I come to boards like this to nerd-out specifically on D&D. :D
I mus admit to never being a real fan of the alignment tendency thing. The fact is these are intelligent beings and there would be a wide range of values
And that seems to be a design principle of 4E.
Yes...and no. Unlike in 3E, the player races aren't assigned "alignment tendencies" (ie. elves are chaotic good, dwarves lawful good). I'd say most dragonborn are unaligned, just like most other people in the world, but you can still find plenty that are good (and yes, paladin-like) and evil.
-That, to me, seems silly, and seems to go against the established grain of adventure fantasy.
And that seems to be a design principle of 4E.
another 4e thing I kind of like
They're called Khaasta, and they've been living in FR for a long time now, and the new rules for the Dragonborn are easily applied to them.
We didn't need a piece Abeir - more affectionately know as Ao's toilet - to plop down onto Toril - we had the perfect race all ready to go...
Not to mention another race that was already called Dragonborn, and the Lizard-Kings could have worked as well (although the back-story would have required more fine-tooling).
So many Serpentine races already living in the Realms that they could not fit them all in the Serpent Kingdoms book... and we still got force-fed more unnecessary new lore.
I think if it wasn't for Abeir, I wouldn't have had so much trouble swallwing all of the changes - it was just such a horrid idea from the get-go - I can't believe they thought people were going to like it.
The Spellplague, on the other hand, I've grown into, and can deal with it... at least it makes some sense, whereas a world of primordial abberations trying to 'invade' belongs in Eberron, not FR. I liked the Delkyr in Eb... they should have stayed there.
The whole thing smacks of Flash Gordon and Mongo's invasion of earth space... I guess we'll see Emperor Ming next.
Savior of the Universe!
Until that wretched series on Sci-Fi screwed everything up.
I actually have a set of Flash Gordon RPG rules from the 70's laying around somewhere - I always wanted to run a game on Mongo.
See this guy?
They're called Khaasta,
That was one I was thinking of for "Dragonborn in the Realms". They have an interesting back story as well, they would be applied nicely
Speaking of Cormyr and Dragonborn, I wonder how a purple-scaled Dragonborn would be received?...Cormyrean national mascot, perhaps?
-Or the victims of public lynchings.
Where are these Khaasta from anyway, Markus? I know I've seen them before, but I can't think where.
-Serpent Kingdoms.
Out of the way, with a fairly large and growing presence... they couldn't work with THAT?!
Anyhow, I came up with a tiny bit of lore concerning them as Dragonborn, but since the forums got screwed up I have no idea where it went. It was an excellent discussion between Gray Richardson and myself about some of the 4e changes and how to work them into the existing cosmology.
The Khaasta belonged to Demogorgon, who had a "brief moment of generosity" and released them from service. My own take was that they were never really his (which explains that uncharacteristic generosity), and he got tired of 'babysitting' them.
I wish I could find that thread, but the short story was that they were created by the Draconic Gods to fight in some Primordial 'God War' that never occurred (the war did, but not the Dragon's participation). Demons (along with most other outsiders) were to be the generals on both sides, and Demogorgon was given the Khaasta as his troops.
That was untold millenia ago, and Demogrogon's participation was 'cancelled', and the Khaasta were never used (in that affair). So he's been using them for other things since then, but finally grew tired of supporting them for the Dragon Gods, who still technically had a claim on them.
The Stuff thats missing is all the details about the 'God War' and why certain participents backed-out (the was Gray's material, I believe).
So now we have Khaasta with a decent Dragonborn heritage to work with - anyone wishing to use the Dragonborn in the 3e world can go to town with that.
They were planes travelling and warlike race, and hired by some Sarrukh for some dirty work in the Black Jungles near Thindol and Lappaliyya I think.
NO...
They HATE the Sarruhk, who tried to enslave them (thinking they were just another race of Lizardmen), and are on Toril to HUNT THEM.
The thing I changed for the 4e version (aside from the above) was that they came into conflict with the Mulan (who consider Azulduth theirs) and wound up 'accidently' becoming the saviors of Unther... hence their occupation of that particular piece of real estate a hundred years later.
Kuraulyek was their god, and the first of the Urd. Because he abandoned Kurtulmak in his hour of need, the two are bitter enemies.
The story of their conflict is on pg. 9 of the GHotR.
I don't agree with the Tymanthor drop, but I just don't see the rise of any current race to fill such shoes as plausible.
Personally, I don't see any current 3e dragon-like race being able to reproduce, cultivate and construct fast enough to create a nation as large--or larger--than Unther with just a little under 100 years to do it.
I don't agree with the Tymanthor drop, but I just don't see the rise of any current race to fill such shoes as plausible.
-All the more reason NOT to do what was done, and incorporate them in some other, "lesser" way.
-All the more reason NOT to do what was done, and incorporate them in some other, "lesser" way.
"Lesser," of course, is not the problem. If it was, it would be solved in this very thread.
Flash! A-ah!
Savior of the Universe!
That was bizarre.
"Lesser," of course, is not the problem. If it was, it would be solved in this very thread.
-I don't have a problem with Dragonborn being introduced, per se. When I say "lesser way", I mean that they can be introduced into the setting, but without so many "waves". If they want to drop them randomly into the setting, sure, go ahead. But, no reason to have them come with their own kingdom that replaces Unther, and so on and so on. Drop them into the setting as nomads who scavenge or what not to survive, for right now? Sure, fine.
-I don't have a problem with Dragonborn being introduced, per se. When I say "lesser way", I mean that they can be introduced into the setting, but without so many "waves". If they want to drop them randomly into the setting, sure, go ahead. But, no reason to have them come with their own kingdom that replaces Unther, and so on and so on. Drop them into the setting as nomads who scavenge or what not to survive, for right now? Sure, fine.
Right, They didn't have to destroy stuff. They could have just made them already exist.
Right, They didn't have to destroy stuff. They could have just made them already exist.
-Could've done what was done with Eladrin: Just like Sun, Moon & Star Elves are now Eladrin...Dragonkin, or something, could have become Dragonborn.
-Could've done what was done with Eladrin: Just like Sun, Moon & Star Elves are now Eladrin...Dragonkin, or something, could have become Dragonborn.
Yup. That could have been done very easily without tramping on stuff
Yup. That could have been done very easily without tramping on stuff
-Mmmhmm.
Look at the positive side. A mad wizard in need of dragon souls as a spell component can now just claim thousands of them in a genocidal fury of which has never been seen since my last trip through Luiren!
-Are they considered Dragons?
I see a glaring issue with using the Khaasta as a primary player race. The vast majority of them are evil and though they do not worship, they pay their allegiances to demon lords. Do we really need another race like the drow? I can see the glaive-wielding good khaasta that escapes the clutches of his militaristic society while the writer waxes poetically on the brightness of his scales and the curves of his frill.
Hmm, just reinterpret the dragonborn as Khaasta that were native to Abeir. Same species, with slightly different organization, motivation, and alignment.
-Are they considered Dragons?
Nope! Dragonborn are humanoids. Dragons are magical beasts and are denoted with "(dragon)".
That said, the dragonborn have blood-ties to dragons.
Nope! Dragonborn are humanoids. Dragons are magical beasts and are denoted with "(dragon)".
That said, the dragonborn have blood-ties to dragons.
-Ha! Myrkul's crazy plot can't work then!
-Ha! Myrkul's crazy plot can't work then!
No, unless he modifies the spell or something.;)
Nope! Dragonborn are humanoids. Dragons are magical beasts and are denoted with "(dragon)".
That said, the dragonborn have blood-ties to dragons.
So that's what happened when Farmer Mcdonald got a little frisky with the magic talking lizard he found in his back yard...:D
No, unless he modifies the spell or something.;)
-Well, yeah. Obviously. :P
Maybe if he forcefully breeds dragonborn until he gets the purest of bloodlines to reemerge. I mean if you are undead you have all the time in the world. Plus he can slaughter rejects and reanimate them indiscriminately
-Might not necessarily work, being a fantasy world with magic and all.
Eugenics have been present in fantasy since forever. Eberron features a heavy eugenics scheme for instance (Vol manipulates bloodlines with even the least of relation to her families bloodline to recreate the Mark of Death). Mystra has had her agents manipulate bloodlines to get families of powerful magic users as well.
-Eugenics do not work with Elves. Thus, they might not work with Dragonborn, either.
-Ha! Myrkul's crazy plot can't work then!
Me? Crazy plot? Kettle to pot! Come on now? Who thought of the "i'll just take the goddess of magic's powers" idea...
But seriously, if we're going to say bloodtype then, my plot would work! Thirty some thousand gallons of dragonborn blood MUST equal a hundred gallons of dragon blood, right?!?
Me? Crazy plot? Kettle to pot! Come on now? Who thought of the "i'll just take the goddess of magic's powers" idea...
-Only in retrospect does it sound crazy...
-Only in retrospect does it sound crazy...
And if it had worked, we might've had a deity of magic that would've seen Cyric's assassination attempt coming and slapped him down hard.
-Exactly. If *I* were deity of magic, things would be different, and, dare I say, better.
No risk, no potential gain. Can't blame an archmage for trying.
-Karsus for Deity of Magic, 2008!
-Thank you for the vote of confidence. If I were deity of magic, I'd find the 11 million illegal Dragonborn living in Faerûn, and send them back to "Abeir", where they belong!
-Karsus for Deity of Magic, 2008!
Get me a bumper sticker now.
Yes to Karsus
No to Dragonborn
I recall a scandal involving theft and 12 lvl spells....
uh-oh. LK's campaign could be in trouble.
Anyway at the end of the day a politician being corrupt or having contributed to a few genocides or not never matters. As long as you are not gay you are good to go; everything else can be managed.
He also can never state he may raise taxes
Anyway LK you still are not getting my vote. You did blow up an entire civilization. Are the Tymanther dragonborn Tiamat or Bahamut worshippers?
Anyway LK you still are not getting my vote. You did blow up an entire civilization.
-I did not.
-Though, if elected, I promise to blow up the 11 million illegal Dragonborn immigrants taking the jobs that native Faerûnian Dragon-Kin could be doing!
-I did not.
-Though, if elected, I promise to blow up the 11 million illegal Dragonborn immigrants taking the jobs that native Faerûnian Dragon-Kin could be doing!
Meh, those are job no one else wants anyways (as in getting choped in half by my sword!)
Meh, those are job no one else wants anyways (as in getting choped in half by my sword!)
-I'll let you know our forefathers paved what these Forgotten Realms are today by doing just more than being chopped in half! They worked 25 hours a day, 11 days in the tenday, for little scraps. These Dragonborn, they don't even speak Faerûnian common, and yet they come waltzing in uninvited, and are taxing the system, spending our hard earned GP, driving up the prices of Potions of Cure Light Wounds!
-See how the mudslinging comes before any kind of serious campaigning? This, my friends, is what might happen if Dragonborn ran the government. First comes mudslinging...then comes mudbaths...next, they start sacrificing you to their Draconic deities. I'd never sacrifice you to Draconic deities...
Are you calling me a dragonborn and a Draconic deity worshiper?!?
I'll have you know, I SUPPORTED your massacre of your own people! AND I SUPPORTED your murder of Mystryl. Why can't we just get along!?
Are you calling me a dragonborn and a Draconic deity worshiper?!?
I'll have you know, I SUPPORTED your massacre of your own people! AND I SUPPORTED your murder of Mystryl. Why can't we just get along!?
-Nah, it's just the campaigning that's getting to me. I'll have you know, Myrkul, you're in the list for potential Veeps.
-Nah, it's just the campaigning that's getting to me. I'll have you know, Myrkul, you're in the list for potential Veeps.
Excellent. I have plans for the schools of magic. Necromancy, we need more of it!
-What does Demogorgon have to do with anything?
He is the guy who used to have contol of them, as per SK. The only part I changed that in reality he was 'holding them' for someone else (the draconic Gods), who never bothered to copme back and claim them, and rather then wait until they showed up at an in-opportune moment (like when he was fighting a war), he 'generously' set them free (the last bit is canon, including the word 'generous', which is what made me at first re-think the story).
I see a glaring issue with using the Khaasta as a primary player race. The vast majority of them are evil and though they do not worship, they pay their allegiances to demon lords. Do we really need another race like the drow? I can see the glaive-wielding good khaasta that escapes the clutches of his militaristic society while the writer waxes poetically on the brightness of his scales and the curves of his frill.
This is the FR board, and you are applying their Core story here... which was modified to fit them in the Realms, as per the canon source Serpent Kingdoms. The Faerûnian Khaasta are not neccessarily evil - they are present (and FREE of their demonic Lord) on Toril to hunt Sarrukh, whom they hate, and they can be found anywher on Toril, not just Faerûn, but they are concentrated around the Lake of Salt as of 1372 DR... conveniently RIGHT NEXT TO the never-detailed 'monster kingdom' of Veldorn!
How much easier could it get to create a kingdom of Dragonborn?
Saying they got into a squabble with the Mulan and defeated their army - giving Unther a chance to free itself - is just icing on the cake. Hell, even their location was perfect for this backstory , and a lot changes in a hundred years - look at the United states a century after the American Revolution.
And as far as the breath (and wings! - they said we weren't getting Draconians
), those could just be Feats achieved at the Paragon and Epic levels. The fluff for the regular Khaasta doesn't say anything about them NOT having fiery breath, and thats a loophole easily exploited. Figure it was an adaption many of them wound up with after years of living in the lower planes (or they always had it, but never bother to use it 'at home', because everything back there was immune to fire!)But where are they coming from? And, if people like them, what do we do—create another world? No, lets just portal their entire kingdom in from someplace else!!
I see where you are at with this, but I, once again, see this as nothing more than marketing strategy than strategic design.
Marketing Strategy? It was BAD game design, plain and simple, and their 'strategy appears to angered more people then it brought in.
Excellent. I have plans for the schools of magic. Necromancy, we need more of it!
I was going to attempt to put the schools of magic back in when I first heard about their removal, but now that I see there isn't even a spell list (just powers), I realize that it is indeed nearly impossible to replicate that system (without designing specific classes around each spell school).
He is the guy who used to have contol of them, as per SK. The only part I changed that in reality he was 'holding them' for someone else (the draconic Gods), who never bothered to copme back and claim them, and rather then wait until they showed up at an in-opportune moment (like when he was fighting a war), he 'generously' set them free (the last bit is canon, including the word 'generous', which is what made me at first re-think the story).
-That was a rhetorical question not aimed at you. As in, "Where the hell did Demogordon come from?" That sort of thing.
It was part of their original core background, and needed to be ported into the Realms version - the Demonlord freed them between versions, to make everything right in the world again.
IIRC, the original write-up was in a Planescape book.
What I don't get is why is it that so many fiends have Ape-like features? Did their parents do a lot of 'Monkeying around'?
What I don't get is why is it that so many fiends have Ape-like features? Did their parents do a lot of 'Monkeying around'?
-I don't know. I know I was very disappointed the first time I saw an actual picture of Demogorgon. Very different from what I always imagined him as. Before knowing the lore and all of that, I saw Demogorgon as (!) a Demonic Gorgon.
Oh... sorry. :embarrass
It was part of their original core background, and needed to be ported into the Realms version - the Demonlord freed them between versions, to make everything right in the world again.
IIRC, the original write-up was in a Planescape book.
What I don't get is why is it that so many fiends have Ape-like features? Did their parents do a lot of 'Monkeying around'?
Cuz Monkeys are EVIL!!!! I really REALLY hate monkeys....
Having just perused the MM last night, I was stricken by the WoW-like way the beasties scale to the challenges... simply by taking on a descriptive word up-front.
Along with Dire, Bood, Abyssal, and Primordial, another BIG favorite is Shadow, along with all the elemental decriptors (to which was added 'cold').
I heard the 4e MM2 is going to have 5 versions of them - the standard butt-picker, the Dire Dung-flinger, the Blood Baboon, the Abyssal Ape, and the Primordial Primate. :P
Having just perused the MM last night, I was stricken by the WoW-like way the beasties scale to the challenges... simply by taking on a descriptive word up-front.
Along with Dire, Bood, Abyssal, and Primordial, another BIG favorite is Shadow, along with all the elemental decriptors (to which was added 'cold').
why are the "WoW"?
...the Abyssal Ape...
-Don't you mean "Abierssal"?
-Don't you mean "Abierssal"?
probably
WoW-Like? Almost every CRPG has had the exact same feature.
-Only the online ones.
why are the "WoW"?
...Becasue in WoW I get to fight something with the Boar 'body type' at every level - they just slap a new skin on it and call it an "Abyssal Boar' or 'Hell Boar' or 'Dire Boar'.
...I was just playing WoW again recently, and was killing Boars and Crocodiles (Crocolisks in WoW) in Durator for awhile (playing an Orc - what else? :P ), and then I crack open the 4e MM and on the first few pages are the BOAR and the CROCODILE, both with several versions that scale to character challenges.
...They're copying the video-game way of handling beasties - just a few monster types with different skins slapped on them so you feel like your fighting something different when you level.
...They actually managed to steal one of the WORST aspects of online gaming - the repetitive monster killing.
...I'm planning on doing a complete review of the book over at CK - there are quite a few things I did like (along with the crap I hated).
Their gods may object . . .
...He's killed gods before... or at least driven them to suicide...
I'm planning on doing a complete review of the book over at CK - there are quite a few things I did like (along with the crap I hated).
-If you post it here, it will be merged into a large and convoluted "megathread" of 4e criticisms.
He's killed gods before... or at least driven them to suicide...
-I'll do it again, too.
-It's ironic that, and this is totally unrelated, that the Athar and the Believers of the Source are my favorite Faction.
-If you post it here, it will be merged into a large and convoluted "megathread" of 4e criticisms.
Yes - one of the things that CK is VERY good for - keeping 'thread pollution' to near non-existant levels.
I think my FAQ thread over there - with the SAME info - is barely on page two.
Oh, and to keep this on topic - the 'secret FRCG artwork' I discovered a few months back of the Dragonborn in the Realms -
Note how they associate with Halflings now....
(I know I posted that before, but it was alot of work cutting it, so I wanted to get a second use out of it).
Yes - one of the things that CK is VERY good for - keeping 'thread pollution' to near non-existant levels.
-Management, for whatever reason, has any and all 4e criticism (intelligent or not) merged into that thread.
I think my FAQ thread over there - with the SAME info - is barely on page two.
-Just goes to show...
Oh, and to keep this on topic - the 'secret FRCG artwork' I discovered a few months back of the Dragonborn in the Realms -
Note how they associate with Halflings now....
-Heh.
-I need help with something in Photoshop. Mind if I PM you the question?
(...) They actually managed to steal one of the WORST aspects of online gaming - the repetitive monster killing.
I think it's not just the repetitive monster killing, because nearly every MMO is like that, but more the repetitive lather-rinse-repeat spamming of the same exact buttons (powers) over many, many levels to accomplish the repetitive monster killing that becomes insanely boring in Warcraft.
In Warcraft, (mage) combat is essentially:
Frostbolt, frostbolt, frostbolt, ice-them-down when they get too close, back up, continue frostbolting. If you happen to group a set of monsters together, you could AoE (area of effect) them with a minor damage spell, but then it's back to frostbolting. This pattern continues through 70 levels of almost the exact same monster, just with different skins (slightly modified art). For other classes there are some differences, but it's very much the same.
In the new 4E, it's basically similar:
Magic missile, repeat, repeat, repeat, maybe use a daily-only power, maybe use your AoE (particularly for "minon control"), and repeat. Abilities scale up, in power or range, but they're still pretty much the same throughout the life of the PC. For other classes, there are some differences, but it's very much the same. Button spamming.
And now, Markus is saying that 4E adds to D&D the same monster templating idea that's so common in Warcraft. Move from apes to dire apes, then to shadow apes, then to shadowstorm apes (or whatever)... ad nauseum. It's repetitive, and it feels much the same as MMO monsters. I'd agree with his analogy.
-I need help with something in Photoshop. Mind if I PM you the question?
Sure - I'm more then willing to help with any of your Photoshop needs.
I plan to ream your mind (that doesn't sound right...) when I start putting together the Hordelands Netbook (I'm lost using Acrobat for pdf's), so it works out that we help each other.
Sure - I'm more then willing to help with any of your Photoshop needs.
-Alright, the PM is on it's way.
Please, shoot them all. Quickly.
Please, shoot them all. Quickly.
They're taking the minds of our young'lings. Truly this is a sinister race with plans of conquest in the future! The proof is in the picture... there is a pixie among them! What more evidence do you need!??
They're taking the minds of our young'lings. Truly this is a sinister race with plans of conquest in the future! The proof is in the picture... there is a pixie among them! What more evidence do you need!??
Stupid dragons... next thing you know, they'll be PC mounts.
Stupid dragons... next thing you know, they'll be PC mounts.
How do you find the most amusing clips? But anyway, this seems to be following the original Dragonlance chronicles very well! 1)Earth shattering event 2)Most gods go bye-bye 3)Dragon people appear and then.... 4)Heroes ride good dragons to defeat evil.
I'm for thinking that Tracy Hickman should take a better look at whats going on at FR....
-I don't particularly believe that Dragonborn would appreciate people riding on them.
probably depends on who it is
I'm for thinking that Tracy Hickman should take a better look at whats going on at FR....
Actually, as per someone else's advice in my "Re-imaging the Elves" thread, I started reading through all the Scarred Lands material...
Its SO similar to 4e core its scarey - its like they lifted the whole backstory/cosmology practically word-for-word from that setting.
Actually, as per someone else's advice in my "Re-imaging the Elves" thread, I started reading through all the Scarred Lands material...
Its SO similar to 4e core its scarey - its like they lifted the whole backstory/cosmology practically word-for-word from that setting.
-Do you still have that list of similarities between many of the changes, and other campaign settings? You should post it in a thread, if you do.
You want a new continent, well... That's a great idea! New place to explore! But why the need to drop it out the sky?
There's a massive ocean. They could be inhabiting an island or continent that was only recently found. Heck, if you wanted it to move, you could make it a floating volcanic or magic powered island... Doesn't seem to make much sense to do it the way they have.
If you really wanted a plane merge, which part of me thinks might be an intriguing idea, with the spell-plague weakening boundaries between planes etc., you don't need to drop it on them. Floating magically powered continent aswell makes a HELL load more sense...
I'm just trying to get over the fact that the simplest thing in my eyes has been completely avoided.
You want a new continent, well... That's a great idea! New place to explore! But why the need to drop it out the sky?
There's a massive ocean. They could be inhabiting an island or continent that was only recently found. Heck, if you wanted it to move, you could make it a floating volcanic or magic powered island... Doesn't seem to make much sense to do it the way they have.
If you really wanted a plane merge, which part of me thinks might be an intriguing idea, with the spell-plague weakening boundaries between planes etc., you don't need to drop it on them. Floating magically powered continent aswell makes a HELL load more sense...
-Maztica was added in in an equally heavy-handed manner, and didn't fit. Coupled with the fact that not too many people liked it as is, replacing it with something else was seen as killing two birds with one stone.
-Maztica was added in in an equally heavy-handed manner, and didn't fit.
Can I get an amen. One of the good things about the 4-Gotten Realms is the destruction of Maztica
Can I get an amen. One of the good things about the 4-Gotten Realms is the destruction of Maztica
-Nah, not really. They're removing a setting that was magically added in and didn't fit with the "flavor" of the rest of the Realms with...a setting that is magically added in, and doesn't fit with the "flavor" of the rest of the Realms. I don't particularly like Maztica, but at least Maztica has been around long enough for some lore to begin wrapping around it (Amn colonizing it, and all of that good stuff).
-Nah, not really. They're removing a setting that was magically added in and didn't fit with the "flavor" of the rest of the Realms with...a setting that is magically added in, and doesn't fit with the "flavor" of the rest of the Realms. I don't particularly like Maztica, but at least Maztica has been around long enough for some lore to begin wrapping around it (Amn colonizing it, and all of that good stuff).
i don't know about that. Ed is working on the Maztica replacement so I have some confidence that it will be better than Maztica ever was
-Maybe. Doesn't mean that whatever appears there (especially if it is...'"Abeir"y') fits, though.
OK. But I feel the Maztica thing could be one of the few positives. Emphasis on could be.
-Maztica was added in in an equally heavy-handed manner, and didn't fit. Coupled with the fact that not too many people liked it as is, replacing it with something else was seen as killing two birds with one stone.
I'm going to disagree with you. Maztica was fine. No one knew what was there. Anchorhome was all the way to the North, and south of that, no one really knew what was there. I have no problems with dropping something into a space that people had no idea was there.
I do have a problem with people cosmically yanking it out and replacing it with some other land which is equally incongruous and not covered at all, thus rendering even the 2e Maztica Sourcebooks useless and replacing them with a formless jello mold.
Likewise, Unther and Mulholrand were fine, even if you didn't use them, but replacing a land of humanoid Egyptalikes with a bunch of mutant dragon lizardfolk is yet another example of "Gone too far."
This is like George Perez's Wonder Woman. No matter how good or bad you think it is, it doesn't make sense with anything else.
Essentially, in 4e, Shar is just the world's worst cosmic dentist. Let's have a spellplague. No one will notice when we pull some teeth!
OK. But I feel the Maztica thing could be one of the few positives. Emphasis on could be.
-Sure, could be.
I'm going to disagree with you. Maztica was fine.
-And, I am going to disagree with you, there. Maztica was far from fine. We've all come to accept it as it was, but it was far from fine. I'm sure you know the old argument that theists use to 'prove' the existence of G-d: What are the odds that the wind blows the pieces of a wrist watch in such a manner that all of the pieces come together as we know them, and work? The same argument applies here, though in a different context? What are the odds that a culture- no, multiple cultures!- develop in such a manner that various cultures on Maztica resemble ones on Earth? What are the odds that the planet develops flora and fauna that resembles that of Mesoamerica? What are the odds that- and mind you, I buy somewhat into the concept of Eternal Recurrence- literal events unfold that mirror those that happened here? Too much unbelievability, I'm sorry.
Likewise, Unther and Mulholrand were fine, even if you didn't use them, but replacing a land of humanoid Egyptalikes with a bunch of mutant dragon lizardfolk is yet another example of "Gone too far."
-Agreed. It's a case of replacing something that (supposedly, as I never had any problems with them) didn't fit with the "feel" of the Realms, with something else that doesn't (based on what we've read so far).
-I was looking for a picture of Dragonborn, and I found THIS, dating back to '06. Did anyone else know about these guys?
Yeah, I already knew. In fact the 4e dragonborn are based on them... or, at least, probably someone said: "I heard someone wants a dragon race? we did one in Races of the Dragon, can we use their name?" Also, Dragons of Faerûn has some notes on how to introduce them in the Realms, but I don't know why the 4E ones have their backstory not related to that in any sense...
But I am a bit lucky with them. I personally like the dragonborn and how they are presented in 4e, so if I decide to put them in my setting I can still use 3.5 edition rules (or Pathfinder) using human as a base race*.
*If you were asking you'll probably know nothing about this. The 3.5 dragonborn wasn't a template but was a group of racial traits that you applied to another base race, replacing the older traits (even ability score adjustments, but I thing some were not removed, not sure about this). The idea was that you embraced Bahamut and were reborned in a new form: Dragonborned... that's the reason of the name.
Yeah, I already knew. In fact the 4e dragonborn are based on them... or, at least, probably someone said: "I heard someone wants a dragon race? we did one in Races of the Dragon, can we use their name?" Also, Dragons of Faerûn has some notes on how to introduce them in the Realms, but I don't know why the 4E ones have their backstory not related to that in any sense...
But I am a bit lucky with them. I personally like the dragonborn and how they are presented in 4e, so if I decide to put them in my setting I can still use 3.5 edition rules (or Pathfinder) using human as a base race*.
*If you were asking you'll probably know nothing about this. The 3.5 dragonborn wasn't a template but was a group of racial traits that you applied to another base race, replacing the older traits (even ability score adjustments, but I thing some were not removed, not sure about this). The idea was that you embraced Bahamut and were reborned in a new form: Dragonborned... that's the reason of the name.
-Did not know that.
, but I don't know why the 4E ones have their backstory not related to that in any sense...
yeah. not sure why
-And, I am going to disagree with you, there. Maztica was far from fine. We've all come to accept it as it was, but it was far from fine. I'm sure you know the old argument that theists use to 'prove' the existence of G-d: What are the odds that the wind blows the pieces of a wrist watch in such a manner that all of the pieces come together as we know them, and work? The same argument applies here, though in a different context? What are the odds that a culture- no, multiple cultures!- develop in such a manner that various cultures on Maztica resemble ones on Earth? What are the odds that the planet develops flora and fauna that resembles that of Mesoamerica? What are the odds that- and mind you, I buy somewhat into the concept of Eternal Recurrence- literal events unfold that mirror those that happened here? Too much unbelievability, I'm sorry.
You seemed to have missed Ed Greenwood's original purpose for the Forgotten Realms. On the Old Grey Box's logo there even says, "wherein lies realms forgotten." He had intended, like Tolkien, to apply his world to reality by stating it as sort of a parallel world to our own that over time faded away and lost contact and that is how the term "Forgotten Realms" was created. If you look at the map of Abeir-Toril at large the locations of all the respective continents resemble Earth's very much.
However, I agree. Maztica was a little too blatant in the Earth imitation and the magic and lore, which could have been developed far better, was a disappointment.
You seemed to have missed Ed Greenwood's original purpose for the Forgotten Realms. On the Old Grey Box's logo there even says, "wherein lies realms forgotten." He had intended, like Tolkien, to apply his world to reality by stating it as sort of a parallel world to our own that over time faded away and lost contact and that is how the term "Forgotten Realms" was created. If you look at the map of Abeir-Toril at large the locations of all the respective continents resemble Earth's very much.
-None of which negates what I said. The Mazticans were not Incas, Aztecs, Mayans, and so on, like the Muhorandi and the Untheric were Egyptian and Mesopotamian. Furthermore, I also bring up the not only the notion of parallel sociological development, which does happen limited cases, from time to time (mummification, pyramids, dragons), which needs explaining, but parallel physical development, which defies logical believability.
-None of which negates what I said. The Mazticans were not Incas, Aztecs, Mayans, and so on, like the Muhorandi and the Untheric were Egyptian and Mesopotamian. Furthermore, I also bring up the not only the notion of parallel sociological development, which does happen limited cases, from time to time (mummification, pyramids, dragons), which needs explaining, but parallel physical development, which defies logical believability.
Not really, you look at the real world ratio of Mexico to the Yucatan and Guatemala, and you look at Maztica's, and they are very different. Plus they never put the Incas (Kultakal) directly south of the Aztecs (Nextal) in the real world. Plus the real world Mayans weren't nearly so peaceful. I can bring up more examples, I do have the Maztica campaign setting on PDF, need more?
Not really, you look at the real world ratio of Mexico to the Yucatan and Guatemala, and you look at Maztica's, and they are very different. Plus they never put the Incas (Kultakal) directly south of the Aztecs (Nextal) in the real world. Plus the real world Mayans weren't nearly so peaceful. I can bring up more examples, I do have the Maztica campaign setting on PDF, need more?
-As I said, the physical flora and fauna are similar- as well as the location of the damned place. Tomatoes...Red Hot Chili Peppers...Rainforests...Believability is dropping...
-Sociologically, the Maztican groups resemble actual Indian tribes, when there is no actual relation between the two. The Kuktakal are like Incas, as you say. The Nexal are like Aztecs, as you say. Ziggurat temples in which hearts are "fed" to their deities...Believability is dropping...
-And, lastly, let's not even get into history unfolding nearly exactly as it happened here. Believability is close to zero...
-As I said, the physical flora and fauna are similar- as well as the location of the damned place. Tomatoes...Red Hot Chili Peppers...Rainforests...Believability is dropping...
-Sociologically, the Maztican groups resemble actual Indian tribes, when there is no actual relation between the two. The Kuktakal are like Incas, as you say. The Nexal are like Aztecs, as you say. Ziggurat temples in which hearts are "fed" to their deities...Believability is dropping...
-And, lastly, let's not even get into history unfolding nearly exactly as it happened here. Believability is close to zero...
You can make similar comparisons in Kara-Tur, though to a lesser extent. I do have to agree with you though, that Maztica will not be missed due to lack of creativity and inspiration.
You can make similar comparisons in Kara-Tur, though to a lesser extent. I do have to agree with you though, that Maztica will not be missed due to lack of creativity and inspiration.
-Kara-Tur, again, the same thing. Though, to a lesser degree. Kara-Tur has some degree of sovereignty that Maztica did not have.
Tabot is actually an example of 'better' derivation, believe it or not. The name of the three kingdoms that comprise Koryo are taken directly from Korean History books, and the name Koryo itself was an early one for Korea.
But thats probably the worst of the bunch - there is some pretty good stuff if you can look beyond the RW history pasted in.
Maztica, on the other hand, never recieved enough attention to ever become more then a derivation of Central America. I was watching Apocalypto the other day, and when the ships of the Europeans landed at the very end, I kept looking for Cordel's Drow girfriend on the boat.
Then I realized it was Cortez...
You seemed to have missed Ed Greenwood's original purpose for the Forgotten Realms. On the Old Grey Box's logo there even says, "wherein lies realms forgotten." He had intended, like Tolkien, to apply his world to reality by stating it as sort of a parallel world to our own that over time faded away and lost contact and that is how the term "Forgotten Realms" was created. If you look at the map of Abeir-Toril at large the locations of all the respective continents resemble Earth's very much.
That contradicts what Ed has said in the past about deliberately designing his Realms not to have close real world parallels.
That contradicts what Ed has said in the past about deliberately designing his Realms not to have close real world parallels.
Yet this is the same guy who supposedly maintains a portal to the Realms in his basement, lol.:P
Yet this is the same guy who supposedly maintains a portal to the Realms in his basement, lol.:P
Eh, that doesn't have to do with what I said.
Eh, that doesn't have to do with what I said.
I know, I was just providing comic relief.
In all seriousness, my information is just based off of some things I have found on the internet. If you want to know the answer, all you to do is ask Ed himself on Candlekeep.
He had Stygia, which was from Conan, which Robert Howerd based on a group of proto-Egyptians.
He even imagined his version of the Moonshaes (and by extension, Anchorome) to be very much like Ursula LeGuinn's Earthsea.
And besides, even though Ed did things 'right', many who came after him (some of the later-TSR dross) added in some pretty lousy derivation. I don't mind 're-imagining' certain poorly-done parts of the Realms, but I think geography swaps with some newly-conceived sister-world is just as bad, if not worse, then what we had.
I just hope whatever replaces Maztica is FAR better then what replaced Unther.
What will we get in 5e, Hydraborn? :P
What will we get in 5e, Hydraborn? :P
No, Protoss.:D
-That said, they key is to differentiate enough, to a degree that while parallels may be exhibited, if one begins looking for them, they aren't blatant. I like to use Rasheman as my example. Rasheman, when you look for it, does seem to have some analogous references to Russia- be it the cold weather, the relative location, the names. But, be that as it may, Rasheman has developed enough identity to separate it from Russia, to make it Rasheman, not Russia.
-As was discussed previously, with Kara-Tur, and Maztica, neither setting did enough of the separation from the actual cultures and places that they were based off of.
-As I have said many times in the past, everything in fantasy is based off of what we know. It'd be impossible to create fantasy that wasn't somehow grounded in our reality.
-That said, they key is to differentiate enough, to a degree that while parallels may be exhibited, if one begins looking for them, they aren't blatant. I like to use Rasheman as my example. Rasheman, when you look for it, does seem to have some analogous references to Russia- be it the cold weather, the relative location, the names. But, be that as it may, Rasheman has developed enough identity to separate it from Russia, to make it Rasheman, not Russia.
-As was discussed previously, with Kara-Tur, and Maztica, neither setting did enough of the separation from the actual cultures and places that they were based off of.
Yeah, I totally agree. But it has hinted in some past supplements that the humans of Kara-Tur (at least the Shou, not the Lung) and Maztica also were brought over in unknown ways from portals elsewhere just like the Mulhorandi and Untherites. If that was true and they did emigrate from another planet (Earth?), then it would make sense.
But it has hinted in some past supplements that the humans of Kara-Tur (at least the Shou, not the Lung) and Maztica also were brought over in unknown ways from portals elsewhere just like the Mulhorandi and Untherites. If that was true and they did emigrate from another planet (Earth?), then it would make sense.
-Right. Which is why I give Kara-Tur, Unther and Mulhorand some "leeway", in terms of similarity.
While the Lung were fearful of magic, the Shou embraced it, and their own penchant for Artificer Magic soon rubbed off on the Imaskari, who's empire they quickly became part of.
Later, while the Nar took up the southern Imaskari traditions of portal magic (using it to summon extra-planar beings), the Raumathar took to the Shou's grasp of Arcane Machinery, and built many strange and fiendish engines of destruction.
Hopefully someday I'll complete that History of the Taan... along with the other 10,000 projects I started.
I enjoyed reading it. Kinda makes me want to play a Dragonborn character (if I can ever get out from behind the DM's screen).
Not sure how all this generic lore will fit Dragonborn in the Realms, though.
-Where there's a will, there's a way. Since they're extraplanar creatures, anyway, it's not hard to make the past apply, and wing it for the present.
The link worked fine for me...
Is all about perseption MT
Because if that were so, I wouldn't see it either. :P
So you are saying that Karsus' unwillingness to accept 4e changes is blinding him to the information on the page?
Because if that were so, I wouldn't see it either. :P
Well lately there has been conversation about "perseption is rality" and even about LK just being a figment of Heretic's imagination so...
He was Shar's creature all along. ;)
Karsus didn't really exist - he was a construct created by Shar to enable her to steal Mystra's power - thats why he was so 'inhumanly' quick to learn magic.
He was Shar's creature all along. ;)
Ah, and since That's all I know THAT'S reality! Thanks MT :P
As to dragonborn... not sure about the cleavage with females thing... seems a bit out of place to me for some reason, could be all that herpetology I studied as a youth. Otherwise they're not a terrible idea... not great, but not bad.
The link worked fine for me...
-Yeah, it worked when I clicked it now. Notice how, though, when I posted that it wasn't working, it was hours ago, around 11 in the morning? ;)
So you are saying that Karsus' unwillingness to accept 4e changes is blinding him to the information on the page?
Because if that were so, I wouldn't see it either. :P
-I'm willing to accept the 4e changes. I don't have to like them, but it'd be silly to deny them. I don't like a lot of them, and don't have any intention on following the setting with as much interested as I did after the changes, that's all. ;)
I could totally buy that about Karsus... think I'll use that actually. :D
-Things have been retconned/changed to be that, actually. It was Shar who implanted the idea to develop the spell in the first place, now.
...could be all that herpetology I studied as a youth.
-What, if I may ask, is herpetology?
-What, if I may ask, is herpetology?
Scientists who study amphibians and reptiles, from ecology to genetics.
Pretty cool, really. I can't wait for my new pet. ;)
Better living through science, I always say! :D
Herpetology is the branch of zoology dedicated to the study of reptiles and amphibians. Sarruks and Batrachi if you like ;)
Scientists who study amphibians and reptiles, from ecology to genetics.
Pretty cool, really. I can't wait for my new pet. ;)
Better living through science, I always say! :D
-Thank you. I could have looked looked myself, but with 'ology' being 'the study of something', and the first part of the word being 'herpe' and all...Yeeeaaaahh...;)
And that Karsus/Shar angle is canon? That's just stupid... I mean, one thing to cackle over it in humour, but as an official history, well... pass, to put it far more politely than I'm feeling about it.
And that Karsus/Shar angle is canon? That's just stupid... I mean, one thing to cackle over it in humour, but as an official history, well... pass, to put it far more politely than I'm feeling about it.
-Yeah, I know, I know. I don't like the entire thing being marginalized into simply another Shadow Weave vs. Weave plot, Shar vs. Mystra either. It takes away from the meaning, the lesson, the point, of the casting of Karsus' Avatar, and all of that.
Took away one of the few redeeming acts of the Netherese, even if it was hopelessly tragic in its failure... where'd that happen? Never heard of it until today.
-I believe that it was mentioned in the 'superadventure trilogy'.
The one thing that bothers me the most is the absence of a tail. They are supposed to resemble dragons, so give them a dragon's tail for Pete's sake. I don't know how to explain except that my aesthetical sense says "no".
I don't see why your Dragonborn character couldn't have a tail. Just because the picture doesn't illustrate one or there's no mention of one in the book doesn't mean you can't have one. As long as your not looking for your tail to do damage or give you some sort of boost, I don't see any thing wrong with those aesthetics. Same goes for Tieflings. People have complained that they now have tails and long, demonic/devilish horns with red skin. They dont' necessarily have to have these things. If I want my Tiefling to be tailless, small horns, light skin, and a hint of brimstone-smell that lingers about me, that's all well and good just as if I wanted my tiefling to look like this guy:
As long as your not looking for your tail to do damage or give you some sort of boost...
-That, I think, is the main reason why they don't have 'em. Better to avoid the situation all together.
-Will you put that stupid picture away?
:P-Do Dragonborn have breath weapons?
Yes, they're an encounter power that increases damage as you gain higher levels.
-Will you put that stupid picture away?
I like that picture. It's very "Ta-Da!"
Yes, they're an encounter power that increases damage as you gain higher levels.
-Thank you.
I like that picture. It's very "Ta-Da!"
-Sure, in a very 1970's way, of course.
-Sure, in a very 1970's way, of course.
Are you saying your not a fan of Legend?!?!? *draws sword*
One of Tom Cruise's better films IMO and an 80's movie, not 70's.
-I'll get my Dragonborn friends.
I like elven tail
I also noticed the pic in the 4eMM that shows Dragonborn with wings!
And then I distinctly remember RB getting mad at me months ago for calling the Draconians, and he mentioned their lack of wings. :D
I also noticed the pic in the 4eMM that shows Dragonborn with wings!
-I'm sure that wings (or the lack thereof) will be an aesthetic thing, like a tail. Well, actually, there's no need to speculate- can someone with the books confirm it?
I wonder if there will be four sub-races of them... ;)
-Subraces are dead. Sadly. Unfortunately.
Was a very fae movie really... a ranger and his faerie friends against the rising forces of darkness, to save the world and his lady fair. Classic fantasy stuff.
Weird... but then again, I spent most of the early-80's in 'Vampire' mode.
Anyway dragonborn. So we find out they are monotremes. I found the feats on that article rather bland and boring. The cultural facts though are interesting, and it will be nice to see how the transplanted dragonborn who secretly worship Tiamat interact with whatever remains of her cult in the region after the spellplague. I also have to wonder how dragonborn and the cult of the dragon will fit together.
Anyhow, I am also a big Tim Curry Fan*, so it's now DOUBLY weird I never heard of it.
* I had a BIG poster of him as Frankenfurter on the back of my bedroom door, which gave my father palapatations for years. :D
Was I the only person who liked The Last Samurai?
Anyhow, I am also a big Tim Curry Fan*, so it's now DOUBLY weird I never heard of it.
* I had a BIG poster of him as Frankenfurter on the back of my bedroom door, which gave my father palapatations for years. :D
I got you battle buddy! That's The Army version of saying: I like it too
So, I think there is support for it.
I believe that non-true dragon dracoliches appeared in Dragon Magazine...
-Would you happen to know which one?
But same applies to zombie dragon in Draconomicon, and a non-true one certainly exists: Zombie dragon turtle in Cormyr: tearing of the Weave.
-Well, yeah, not all Undead Dragons are Dracoliches. Zombies =/= Liches.
There's also ghost dragons as well, in terms of undead dragons. Skeletals (non-dracolich) as well I think... maybe, not too sure on that one.
One wonders if there are going to be any particular difficulties with animating Dragonborn with necromantic spells, presuming those are still around.
-The Dragon-Kin already involved with the Cult of the Dragon probably won't like the Dragonborn coming in illegally and taking the jobs they can do...
-That is soooo wrong on soooo many levels. ;)
-Good lore going to waste, just to add abeir.
18DELTA :P
-So...Selunarra was returned to the Realms?
18DELTA
But anyway seriously I'd love to know what happens to all the people that suddenly get transplanted in Abeir. It would make an interesting campaign setting.
What I have been really wondering is, what did happen to all those poor people Selune kidnapped and changed into aasimar, threw back to Unther, only for them to be shunted into Abeir when Unther traded places with Tymanther. I mean seriously those poor folks are like balls on planar ping pong.
-Divine Foresight, perhaps? As in in-game explanation, of course.
-Lore wasted. :embarrass
-So...Selunarra was returned to the Realms?
18DELTA
-Maybe. On both points.
-I've never heard that one before, that something becomes so cliche that it crosses into cool territory.
Well many people love flanderised characters for one.
Of course, there's nothing preventing a DM from bringing back Selûnarra in their own campaign...
-That goes without saying. There isn't anything stopping anyone from doing whatever in their own games.
Well many people love flanderised characters for one.
-Not catching the reference.
Of course, there's nothing preventing a DM from bringing back Selûnarra in their own campaign - or a single player bringing a character from there into the Realms (through some forgotten portal). That'd make an interesting background, perhaps, for a mage or paladin.
Already happened, didn't it? With the leader of those Selunite/Mystran Knights in Waterdeep... pretty sure he was from that enclave.
Already happened, didn't it? With the leader of those Selunite/Mystran Knights in Waterdeep... pretty sure he was from that enclave.
yeah. I don't recall him being the leader so to speak. And now with Mystra gone I wonder what happened to that knighhthood....
yeah. I don't recall him being the leader so to speak. And now with Mystra gone I wonder what happened to that knighhthood....
Nope, he's the leader... looked it up. From Selunnara, or however that's spelled, as well.
Did you guys see the new Ecology of the Dragonborn article is up?
Been meaning to read it, but haven't gotten around to it yet.
-I'm happy the Opus Enclave never returned to the Prime Material Plane. It'd be too cliche, a Netherese enclave of Celestials worshiping Selûne opposing a Netherese enclave of Shades worshiping Shar...
I agree. Cliche and predictable.
But cliche and predictable can be so great!
-Yeah, as you said, "flanderised". You never explained the reference.
-Yeah, as you said, "flanderised". You never explained the reference.
Ned Flanders... South Park reference. ;)
-It's an overused cliche, and that's that!
The fluff is very decent. The crunch so and so. Still a good article. I can help but still be surprised at how good Dragon is turning out (the article on Beleth was superb).
I do think the Dragon articles have been good so far.
I just haven't read the more recent ones yet. Been busy and all.But cliche and predictable can be so great!
Sometimes.
Then we could have the 'battle of the Deathstars'.
Actually, Shade is the Deathstar... Selûnarra looks more like this after the Halruaan modifications -
;) :P
Sure, pick on the poor, hapless little lizards... bunch of meanies. :P
-Sure, but, those hapless little lizards took over Unther!
Maybe Selunarra did return but then it got sent to Abeir. Now they are struggling to get to a plane not inhabited by horrors and aberations. That would make a nice series
-I'm pretty sure they said that they aren't intending on focusing too much on "Unreturned 'Abeir'" too much.
For some sadistic reason, I LOVE the idea of Selûnarra returning and appearing over Unther, and saying "We're back!!!"
And two seconds later the spellplague hits and they are shunted off to Abeir.
It's like "You know that spell we've been casting for the last 2000 years trying to return us home? Ummm... we have to start all over..."
How much would it suck to be them? :evillaugh
-There's your "forced symmetry", there.
LK Opus was shunted to Selune's realm when you botched up saving the world in 2E canon. In fact they had a far clearer tie to Selune than Shade had to Shar before 3E.
-I meant in that they were simply saved because of Shade. N:EoM says nothing on this matter, saying only that some believe they saved themselves via divinations, and that Selûne might have had a hand in it. If Shade hadn't made a return, nothing would have ever been said of Opus ever again. Just like with what happened to the Shade Enclave itself until the Return of the Archwizards trilogy.