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Driders

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
calmar
Apr 18, 2008 16:58:20 Hi, I have a few questions regarding driders.

Which deities do they follow? Somewhere I read driders would still follow Lolth and, in the case of clerics, still receive their spells from her. That seems a bit odd to me since driders seem to be outcasts of drow society who explicitly failed that goddess. Would not they, at least in some cases, rather revere other dieties like Ghaunadaur or Shar instead?

Are all driders supposed to be either clerics, sorcerers, or wizards, as described in the Monster Manual, or are members of other classes, like rogues or fighters heard of becoming driders? And how would you create one; using the tauric template from Monster Manual II, or the drider template that can be found on the WotC homepage (I don't know which one is better)?

Thanks.
#2
drakuldraequel
Apr 18, 2008 17:04:35 My POV is that Driders are a fickle lot. Some still seek Lloth's favor to compensate for their failures in the past, while others turn to other deities. Ultimately, it is up to the PC and/or the DM which deity said Drider follows.
#3
the_shaman
Apr 18, 2008 17:11:12 I believe the majority of Driders still follow Lloth, and she is willing enough to give drider clerics spells. It is not so incredible - she is the one who cursed them, so she can also undo that curse. That she almost never does so is another topic. Likewise, it is possible that no other deity can remove the curse by anything less than a miracle - which I guess Shar and Ghaunaudar seldom care to do, unless the drider is a truly powerful creature. In which cases, though, they likewise value it all the more as a drider.

Certainly, a few driders may turn to other deities, but I'd say the hope for restoration and tradition in following Lloth - the devil they know, so to say - is strong. That apart, a former drider restored by a high-level cheric of another deity can be a dangerous ally or foe.
#4
markustay63
Apr 18, 2008 17:13:17 Not only does she grant her outcasts spells, she also encourages fighting between them and the Drow (it strengthens the race).

Lolth puts the 'C' in Chaotic. ;)
#5
the_shaman
Apr 18, 2008 21:48:02 It's a pity drow are NE now
#6
calmar
Apr 19, 2008 2:23:32 Looks like I forgot about the chaotic part.
#7
zanan
Apr 19, 2008 7:29:53
It's a pity drow are NE now

Disagree entirely.

BTW, unlesss someone creates a drow divine caster, I would not care about his or her allegiances.

BTW, there is a drider template (3,0E) somewhere on the WotC's main site.
#8
calmar
Apr 19, 2008 13:00:35 I know the drider template from the main site, but it seems to much general to me, as I am only going to use it on drow, rather than any humanoid.

Therefore I have created my own version for you to PEACH.

Since the default drider is a sorcerer, this template assumes a sorcerer would have been used to create the sample drider with it. A wizard would therefore gain her two bonus feats, for example. Please keep in mind that some of a drider’s abilities are the same as a drow’s and therefore already present, when the template is applied.
The CR is worrying me a bit. Although I think it comes pretty close to the sample drider when applying the template to a 6th-level drow sorcerer (CR 7), a drider is like a sorcerer with lots of strong additional powers for only the price of having suboptimal skills... On the other hand, that’s more a problem with the drider, than with my template. ;) :D

This has been made as close to the sample drider, as possible. If we use the WotC website’s drider template as guideline instead, we have Str +4, Dex +2, Con +8, Wis +2, Cha +2, and a CR increased by +2 instead.

CREATING A DRIDER

“Drider” is an acquired template that can be added to any drow of 6th level and nongood alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
A drider uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here.
Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to aberration. Hit Dice change to d8. Base attack bonus changes to average. Size is changed to Large.
Speed: Same as the base creature. A drider has a climb speed of 1/2 the base creature’s base land speed.
Armor Class: Natural armor improves by +6 (this stacks with any natural armor bonus the base creature has).
Attack: A drider gains a bite attack as a natural weapon.
Full Attack: If armed, a drider usually uses the weapon as its primary attack and its bite as a secondary attack.
Damage: A drider deals 1d4 points of damage with its bite attack.
Special Attacks: A drider delivers a debilitating poison with its bite (Injury, Fortitude negates, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Str.) The saving throw DC for the poison is 10 + 1/2 the drider’s Hit Dice + drider’s Constitution modifier.
Spell-Like Abilities: A drider gains any of the following spell-like abilities it does not already possess. 1/day—dancing lights, clairaudience/clairvoyance, darkness, detect good, detect law, detect magic, dispel magic, faerie fire, levitate, suggestion. Caster level equals drider’s Hit Dice. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Special Qualities: A drider has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus the following special qualities.
• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Spell resistance equal to drider’s HD + 11
Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Dex +2, Con +8, Int +2, Wis +6, Cha +4.
Skills: A drider recalculates its skill points as an aberra-tion and has skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier) x (HD + 3). A drider’s class skills are Climb, Concentration, Hide, Listen, Move Silently and, Spot. Guess, that’s why it sucks to be screwed by Lolth.
A drider has a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. It has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.
Environment: Underground.
Organization: Solitary, pair, or troupe (1–2 plus 7–12 Medium monstrous spiders)
Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature.
Treasure: Double standard.
Alignment: Always chaotic evil.
Advancement: By character class.
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +4.

Should the drider keep the base save bonuses from its class levels, or gain bonuses appropriate for a 6 HD aberration?

How do you like it?
#9
zanan
Apr 20, 2008 9:41:55 We had a template over at the Gate too. When calculating it, as it is for "drow only", keep in mind that the drow character has ECL 8+ already. Thus, as SR is in both creatures (essentially +1 LA) and some of the ability modifiers cancel each other out, I would only add a further LA +2 (max) for the template. Essentially, you'd have HD 6 +2 (drow) +2 drider = ECL 10 for a "base" drider.
#10
Shiftkitty
Apr 20, 2008 18:35:14 RE: Why driders would continue to worship Lloth

I imagine it's because they never got proper exposure to other deities. I don't think Lloth has ever turned a non-Llothite drow into a drider (I could be wrong, though). So, as the "one true god(dess)" in their lives, only Lloth's forgiveness could possibly save them. As a Christian sent to Hell would seek a return to God's favor, a Llothite drow turned into a drider would seek a return to Lloth's favor.
#11
zanan
Apr 21, 2008 2:23:18 That Selvetarmite made a valid point in Lady Penitent I: Drider can be viewed as people chosen by the Spider Queen to prove themselves. They have half the form of Lolth's preferred kin, half the form of Lolth's preferred spiders. Matter of factly, Lolth herself uses a spider-hybrid form.

That aside, by proving themselves to Lolth in her form, she may well decide that the "cursed" drow is good enough to continue. Given that she still provides spells to them does give enough indication that she is willing to support them - for reasons only known to her (and WotC), of course.

Here's that drider template I mentioned before. Not suggesting that it is any good or better ...

http://www.dnd-gate.de/gate3/page/index.php?id=1746
#12
zanan
Apr 25, 2008 2:50:46
Again, my 2e education tells me driders were drow who failed Lloth's test. Most if not all driders were warriors back in 2e. As for driders worshipping Lloth, why would they if they were transformed and mutated by her. I believe Ghaunadur or Vhaeraun we mentioned as gods that were "worshipped" by driders if they worshipped at all.

Unfortunately, you remember wrong with regards to warriors. A look into the Monstrous Manual (i.e. the Monster Manual of AD&D) or indeed The Drow of the Underdark (by Ed Greenwood) would have given you all the info needed.
As for the "why", first, above ample reasons have been given. Second, the books tell us that driders still worship Lolth. The latter alone is fact. Only the "whys" can be speculated upon and Lady Penitent - Sacrifice of the Widow gave as good a reason as any.
As for Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun, I have yet to come accross any information saying that driders worship any other god than Lolth and Kiaransalee. But maybe you find the/a source?
#13
Shiftkitty
Apr 25, 2008 17:32:10 I my drow campaign, one of the males got a bit snotty with a priestess NPC. It was one of those things she wasn't supposed to hear, but she made her Listen check. I don't recall offhand what she used, but she morphed him into a drider. I figured this would give him something to think about. Instead of freaking out like I thought he would, the PC relished the idea of sharing the form of the Spider Queen. He took it as some kind of reward for his nerve and daring and revelled in it (did I mention he has a low INT?). The priestess thought he was being sarcastic, morphed him back, and then beat him within inches of his life (she had been warned not to kill him, but nothing was said about not making him want to die). To this day, the PC longs to be a drider again.
#14
the_shaman
Apr 28, 2008 6:59:42
Disagree entirely.

Me too, but it is in the Monster Manual.
#15
zanan
Apr 28, 2008 7:33:13
Me too, but it is in the Monster Manual.

Just in case, I was actually agreeing that the drow should be NE rather than CE.

DotUD has a little sidebar on drow society being chaotic while they are listed as being usually NE in alignment. No need for that, IMHO. If the deities are CE and a good deal of their priests and priestesses, so be it. The race as such need not be. I for one have nothing against LE clerics of Lolth, as were possible in AD&D.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 calmar Apr 18, 2008 16:58:20	Hi, I have a few questions regarding driders. Which deities do they follow? Somewhere I read driders would still follow Lolth and, in the case of clerics, still receive their spells from her. That seems a bit odd to me since driders seem to be outcasts of drow society who explicitly failed that goddess. Would not they, at least in some cases, rather revere other dieties like Ghaunadaur or Shar instead? Are all driders supposed to be either clerics, sorcerers, or wizards, as described in the Monster Manual, or are members of other classes, like rogues or fighters heard of becoming driders? And how would you create one; using the tauric template from Monster Manual II, or the drider template that can be found on the WotC homepage (I don't know which one is better)? Thanks.
#2 drakuldraequel Apr 18, 2008 17:04:35	My POV is that Driders are a fickle lot. Some still seek Lloth's favor to compensate for their failures in the past, while others turn to other deities. Ultimately, it is up to the PC and/or the DM which deity said Drider follows.
#3 the_shaman Apr 18, 2008 17:11:12	I believe the majority of Driders still follow Lloth, and she is willing enough to give drider clerics spells. It is not so incredible - she is the one who cursed them, so she can also undo that curse. That she almost never does so is another topic. Likewise, it is possible that no other deity can remove the curse by anything less than a miracle - which I guess Shar and Ghaunaudar seldom care to do, unless the drider is a truly powerful creature. In which cases, though, they likewise value it all the more as a drider. Certainly, a few driders may turn to other deities, but I'd say the hope for restoration and tradition in following Lloth - the devil they know, so to say - is strong. That apart, a former drider restored by a high-level cheric of another deity can be a dangerous ally or foe.
#4 markustay63 Apr 18, 2008 17:13:17	Not only does she grant her outcasts spells, she also encourages fighting between them and the Drow (it strengthens the race). Lolth puts the 'C' in Chaotic. ;)
#5 the_shaman Apr 18, 2008 21:48:02	It's a pity drow are NE now
#6 calmar Apr 19, 2008 2:23:32	Looks like I forgot about the chaotic part.
#7 zanan Apr 19, 2008 7:29:53	It's a pity drow are NE now Disagree entirely. BTW, unlesss someone creates a drow divine caster, I would not care about his or her allegiances. BTW, there is a drider template (3,0E) somewhere on the WotC's main site.
#8 calmar Apr 19, 2008 13:00:35	I know the drider template from the main site, but it seems to much general to me, as I am only going to use it on drow, rather than any humanoid. Therefore I have created my own version for you to PEACH. Since the default drider is a sorcerer, this template assumes a sorcerer would have been used to create the sample drider with it. A wizard would therefore gain her two bonus feats, for example. Please keep in mind that some of a drider’s abilities are the same as a drow’s and therefore already present, when the template is applied. The CR is worrying me a bit. Although I think it comes pretty close to the sample drider when applying the template to a 6th-level drow sorcerer (CR 7), a drider is like a sorcerer with lots of strong additional powers for only the price of having suboptimal skills... On the other hand, that’s more a problem with the drider, than with my template. ;) :D This has been made as close to the sample drider, as possible. If we use the WotC website’s drider template as guideline instead, we have Str +4, Dex +2, Con +8, Wis +2, Cha +2, and a CR increased by +2 instead. CREATING A DRIDER “Drider” is an acquired template that can be added to any drow of 6th level and nongood alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A drider uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here. Size and Type: The creature’s type changes to aberration. Hit Dice change to d8. Base attack bonus changes to average. Size is changed to Large. Speed: Same as the base creature. A drider has a climb speed of 1/2 the base creature’s base land speed. Armor Class: Natural armor improves by +6 (this stacks with any natural armor bonus the base creature has). Attack: A drider gains a bite attack as a natural weapon. Full Attack: If armed, a drider usually uses the weapon as its primary attack and its bite as a secondary attack. Damage: A drider deals 1d4 points of damage with its bite attack. Special Attacks: A drider delivers a debilitating poison with its bite (Injury, Fortitude negates, initial and secondary damage 1d6 Str.) The saving throw DC for the poison is 10 + 1/2 the drider’s Hit Dice + drider’s Constitution modifier. Spell-Like Abilities: A drider gains any of the following spell-like abilities it does not already possess. 1/day—dancing lights, clairaudience/clairvoyance, darkness, detect good, detect law, detect magic, dispel magic, faerie fire, levitate, suggestion. Caster level equals drider’s Hit Dice. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Special Qualities: A drider has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus the following special qualities. • Darkvision out to 60 feet. • Spell resistance equal to drider’s HD + 11 Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +4, Dex +2, Con +8, Int +2, Wis +6, Cha +4. Skills: A drider recalculates its skill points as an aberra-tion and has skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier) x (HD + 3). A drider’s class skills are Climb, Concentration, Hide, Listen, Move Silently and, Spot. Guess, that’s why it sucks to be screwed by Lolth. A drider has a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. It has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. Environment: Underground. Organization: Solitary, pair, or troupe (1–2 plus 7–12 Medium monstrous spiders) Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature. Treasure: Double standard. Alignment: Always chaotic evil. Advancement: By character class. Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +4. Should the drider keep the base save bonuses from its class levels, or gain bonuses appropriate for a 6 HD aberration? How do you like it?
#9 zanan Apr 20, 2008 9:41:55	We had a template over at the Gate too. When calculating it, as it is for "drow only", keep in mind that the drow character has ECL 8+ already. Thus, as SR is in both creatures (essentially +1 LA) and some of the ability modifiers cancel each other out, I would only add a further LA +2 (max) for the template. Essentially, you'd have HD 6 +2 (drow) +2 drider = ECL 10 for a "base" drider.
#10 Shiftkitty Apr 20, 2008 18:35:14	RE: Why driders would continue to worship Lloth I imagine it's because they never got proper exposure to other deities. I don't think Lloth has ever turned a non-Llothite drow into a drider (I could be wrong, though). So, as the "one true god(dess)" in their lives, only Lloth's forgiveness could possibly save them. As a Christian sent to Hell would seek a return to God's favor, a Llothite drow turned into a drider would seek a return to Lloth's favor.
#11 zanan Apr 21, 2008 2:23:18	That Selvetarmite made a valid point in Lady Penitent I: Drider can be viewed as people chosen by the Spider Queen to prove themselves. They have half the form of Lolth's preferred kin, half the form of Lolth's preferred spiders. Matter of factly, Lolth herself uses a spider-hybrid form. That aside, by proving themselves to Lolth in her form, she may well decide that the "cursed" drow is good enough to continue. Given that she still provides spells to them does give enough indication that she is willing to support them - for reasons only known to her (and WotC), of course. Here's that drider template I mentioned before. Not suggesting that it is any good or better ... http://www.dnd-gate.de/gate3/page/index.php?id=1746
#12 zanan Apr 25, 2008 2:50:46	Again, my 2e education tells me driders were drow who failed Lloth's test. Most if not all driders were warriors back in 2e. As for driders worshipping Lloth, why would they if they were transformed and mutated by her. I believe Ghaunadur or Vhaeraun we mentioned as gods that were "worshipped" by driders if they worshipped at all. Unfortunately, you remember wrong with regards to warriors. A look into the Monstrous Manual (i.e. the Monster Manual of AD&D) or indeed The Drow of the Underdark (by Ed Greenwood) would have given you all the info needed. As for the "why", first, above ample reasons have been given. Second, the books tell us that driders still worship Lolth. The latter alone is fact. Only the "whys" can be speculated upon and Lady Penitent - Sacrifice of the Widow gave as good a reason as any. As for Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun, I have yet to come accross any information saying that driders worship any other god than Lolth and Kiaransalee. But maybe you find the/a source?
#13 Shiftkitty Apr 25, 2008 17:32:10	I my drow campaign, one of the males got a bit snotty with a priestess NPC. It was one of those things she wasn't supposed to hear, but she made her Listen check. I don't recall offhand what she used, but she morphed him into a drider. I figured this would give him something to think about. Instead of freaking out like I thought he would, the PC relished the idea of sharing the form of the Spider Queen. He took it as some kind of reward for his nerve and daring and revelled in it (did I mention he has a low INT?). The priestess thought he was being sarcastic, morphed him back, and then beat him within inches of his life (she had been warned not to kill him, but nothing was said about not making him want to die). To this day, the PC longs to be a drider again.
#14 the_shaman Apr 28, 2008 6:59:42	Disagree entirely. Me too, but it is in the Monster Manual.
#15 zanan Apr 28, 2008 7:33:13	Me too, but it is in the Monster Manual. Just in case, I was actually agreeing that the drow should be NE rather than CE. DotUD has a little sidebar on drow society being chaotic while they are listed as being usually NE in alignment. No need for that, IMHO. If the deities are CE and a good deal of their priests and priestesses, so be it. The race as such need not be. I for one have nothing against LE clerics of Lolth, as were possible in AD&D.