Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 hardia Dec 10, 2008 20:48:38	is drizzt going to end up in the wall of the faithless when he dies considering that he does not really believe that gods exist and as for mielikki he only believes that she is a name that he can attach to his ideas and what not. im not sure if he even thinks of mielikki as a god at all, rather than a set of ideals that are similar to what he follows. drizzt apparently questions the existence of gods and thinks that they are nothing more than very powerful spirits if they even exist at all.
#2 lord_karsus Dec 10, 2008 20:56:47	-No, he'd go to Mielikki's realm. The small amount of praise and thanksgiving that he gives her is sufficient. It doesn't have to be much, to avoid eternal damnation and such.
#3 hardia Dec 10, 2008 21:01:28	but dont you have to also believe that the gods are real to not end up in the wall? i mean putting a name to a set of ideas that match his own isnt exactly the same as believing that mielikki is a god. since he was real skeptical of mielikki until it was explained to him that mielikki is just a name for his ideas or whatever.
#4 lord_karsus Dec 10, 2008 21:10:40	-No. All you need to do to avoid being faithless is have faith in a patron deity. Drizzt has faith in a deity, his deity, Mielikki. Thus, he'd avoid the Wall of the Faithless. He isn't particularly pious, but he doesn't have to be.
#5 hardia Dec 10, 2008 21:12:45	but thats my entire point....drizzt does not have faith in mielikki because he does not believe that she exists. in fact i dont think that he believes that any gods exist. rather he just named his ideas of goodness after mielikki. i mean sure he throws her name around in the novels but you could easily replace every place that the name mielikki shows up in his pre-chapter monologues with (my ideas/ and or my belief in goodness) and it would still make sense
#6 rauric Dec 10, 2008 21:15:00	Luckily the Wall has been done away with in 4E so people don't have to worry about this form of discussion. :D
#7 hardia Dec 10, 2008 21:16:34	what it has? i have not read the 4e stuff yet so can you tell me what happened to it? and which source book its from
#8 lord_karsus Dec 10, 2008 21:18:22	-He does believe that she exists. If he did not, he would not pray to her occasionally, give her thanks occasionally, and speak of her in a good light occasionally. One does not need to be a priest to avoid the Wall of the Faithless. One does not have to be pious to avoid the Wall of the Faithless. One does not need to be particularly devout to avoid the Wall of the Faithless. One does not needed to be religious to avoid the Wall of the Faithless. All a person needs is a patron deity. It has been affirmed in numerous novels over the span of the entire Drizzt series that Drizzt holds Mielikki to be his patroness. That the spirit of Montolio went up to her, and that one day, he might go up to her, too. That's all he needs. He is not False. He does not claim to serve one deity, and then serve another, or no one at all. He is not Faithless. He has a patron. Thus, he is not going to be left waiting in the Fugue.
#9 hardia Dec 10, 2008 21:21:58	Luckily the Wall has been done away with in 4E so people don't have to worry about this form of discussion. :D what happened to the wall?
#10 rauric Dec 10, 2008 21:36:16	I think the Wall was wiped away in the aftermath of the Plague and the effects it had on the Planes. After reading almost all of the RAS books I can say I feel Drizzt believes in the goddess Mielikeiiiwhateverhernameis. At least IMO.
#11 hardia Dec 10, 2008 21:39:29	hum not sure why mystra's death would effect the planes at all considering the weave only exists in dweaomerheart and toril.. do you know what source book that information is from? i would like to read about it.
#12 lord_karsus Dec 10, 2008 23:18:17	-The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide.
#13 drizztsmanchild Dec 11, 2008 1:38:40	Oh I prob wouldn't worry about Drizzt being in any walls or on any gods plane. Likely by the time he's lived through his usefulness as a mortal npc he will probably end up being made into a lesser god. God of irrevelent ponderings at the beginnings of chapters. Under Oghma. LOL(They are about as useful as the last ten minutes of each Smallville episode. Yeah I watch it so what.Lol) Still a fan. Therefore a critic as well
#14 _jarlaxle_ Dec 11, 2008 5:14:58	Drizzt believes in Mielikki and she gave signs to him like the meeting with the unicorn. Though when he dies and hasn't abandoned his faith than he will go to Mielikkis realm.
#15 Stigger Dec 11, 2008 8:40:23	I think I'd wonder what else gods were exactly if not 'embodiments' of ideas and concepts. That sums them up as well as any other I think.
#16 Zireael Dec 11, 2008 9:33:38	I agree with above. Otherwise anyone could be called False... even Triel Baenre.
#17 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Dec 11, 2008 10:16:39	what happened to the wall? Who knows, who cares. It was always a dumb idea.
#18 _jarlaxle_ Dec 11, 2008 10:54:39	I didn't understand it completly because the wall should contain the false and the faithless, but weren't they also supossed to go to the Nine Hells?
#19 lord_karsus Dec 11, 2008 11:13:29	Oh I prob wouldn't worry about Drizzt being in any walls or on any gods plane. Likely by the time he's lived through his usefulness as a mortal npc he will probably end up being made into a lesser god. -In the past, I would have laughed at the notion of "famous" established characters being turned into deities. But, with Fzoul and Obould exarches (demideities), I get worried that Drizzt and Elminster aren't far behind. I didn't understand it completly because the wall should contain the false and the faithless, but weren't they also supossed to go to the Nine Hells? -The Demons and Devils can take souls with them as the souls are making their way to the Fugue. They have to make agreements, but...
#20 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Dec 11, 2008 18:15:05	I didn't understand it completly because the wall should contain the false and the faithless, but weren't they also supossed to go to the Nine Hells? They aren't supposed to go there, no.
#21 drizztsmanchild Dec 11, 2008 22:05:59	After "Crucible: Trial of Cyric the Mad" didn't Kelemvor take down the wall? He still made the false and faithless do menial and degrading task but I don't think he tortured anyone. Did he? How is he in 4e?
#22 _jarlaxle_ Dec 12, 2008 3:59:29	They aren't supposed to go there, no. Well the Findish Codex II says that Asmodeus made "The Pact Primeval" with the gods which says that he gets all the mortals which don't follow the gods to torture them in hell und that he and his minions drain their energie from them... After "Crucible: Trial of Cyric the Mad" didn't Kelemvor take down the wall? He still made the false and faithless do menial and degrading task but I don't think he tortured anyone. Did he? How is he in 4e? Yes but later as he realized he didn't do his work as a god of the dead he rebuild it.
#23 rauric Dec 12, 2008 7:59:09	This is why I have started to wish they made the gods mysterious beings and not high level NPCs. I think the stories should be about the pcs/adventurers of Ferun, not the deities. I know those novels sell but they just muck things up overall IMO.
#24 lord_karsus Dec 12, 2008 11:44:42	Well the Findish Codex II says that Asmodeus made "The Pact Primeval" with the gods which says that he gets all the mortals which don't follow the gods to torture them in hell und that he and his minions drain their energie from them... -Which isn't Forgotten Realms specific. The Forgotten Realms already had the Wall of the Faithless, for instance, to deal with the faithless.
#25 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Dec 12, 2008 12:37:43	Yes, I don't think that's Realms-specific information, as stated above.
#26 lord_karsus Dec 12, 2008 12:43:23	-While not Forgotten Realms specific, the Fiendish Codex books are good books, when coupled with Planescape information.
#27 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Dec 12, 2008 12:44:40	Thanks for the tip.
#28 Stigger Dec 12, 2008 13:37:28	What Rauric said... huge mistake to start getting them involved directly in things.
#29 Mirtek Dec 12, 2008 14:07:40	Drizzt isn't a follower of Mielikki anyway. In one story he introduces himself as "servant of Gwaern Windstroem the champion of Mielikki".
#30 kerym_ammath Dec 12, 2008 16:06:31	This is why I have started to wish they made the gods mysterious beings and not high level NPCs. I think the stories should be about the pcs/adventurers of Ferun, not the deities. I know those novels sell but they just much things up overall IMO. QFT my friend.
#31 salla Dec 12, 2008 16:13:57	This is why I have started to wish they made the gods mysterious beings and not high level NPCs. I think the stories should be about the pcs/adventurers of Ferun, not the deities. I know those novels sell but they just much things up overall IMO. Agreed. That's one of the things that kept me away from previous editions of FR. In 4th, they seem to be far less pervasive, and that's a good thing.
#32 Stigger Dec 12, 2008 16:24:26	Gonna have to wait to see what the novels do before we start getting too happy about the changes to the gods... ;)
#33 lord_karsus Dec 12, 2008 16:31:49	Drizzt isn't a follower of Mielikki anyway. In one story he introduces himself as "servant of Gwaern Windstroem the champion of Mielikki". -Ah, the "early days", when things made as much sense as Elminster not worshiping Mystra in his stat block, looking back in hindsight.
#34 salla Dec 12, 2008 19:14:09	Gonna have to wait to see what the novels do before we start getting too happy about the changes to the gods... ;) Not really, no. I don't read 'em and ignore 'em. If it ain't in the rulebooks, I don't count it.
#35 drizztsmanchild Dec 12, 2008 22:14:41	Ah but what is a champion of a god but theier mouthpiece and defender of the god they represent. So if someone is a servant of a gods champion doesnt that in essence make them a follower? all gods have many different names among their worshippers.
#36 lord_karsus Dec 12, 2008 23:31:15	-Well, as a worker, your immediate boss is your manager/associate manager/supervisor/whatever they are called. Even though you don't directly answer to them, you are working for the CEO of the company, yes.
#37 Stigger Dec 13, 2008 2:01:26	Not really, no. I don't read 'em and ignore 'em. If it ain't in the rulebooks, I don't count it. Depends on how you view DDI I suppose... if you consider them as rulebooks of sorts, then I suspect you're going to see the same problem as before. If you ignore it, then you're golden.
#38 salla Dec 13, 2008 2:11:23	Depends on how you view DDI I suppose... if you consider them as rulebooks of sorts, then I suspect you're going to see the same problem as before. If you ignore it, then you're golden. I don't have access to DDI, and kinda have to ignore it, 'cause I can't read it.
#39 Stigger Dec 13, 2008 2:18:40	Well then, you'll probably be happier, since Mr. Baker intimated that the plotlines of novels were going to be incorporated into what is produced for it.
#40 zanan Dec 13, 2008 4:08:19	-Ah, the "early days", when things made as much sense as Elminster not worshiping Mystra in his stat block, looking back in hindsight. Near the beginning of FR 3E I actually noted to Rich Baker that with all the hubbub regarding "must have a patron deity" it would be good to include a note on somesuch in every FR statblock. He agreed to that and some (as in: very very few) actually had that - divine casters apart that is. Methinks though that Drizzt was given as a Ranger of Mielikki in the FRCS as well as the Heroes' Lorebook alike, no matter what sort of comment this or that novel contained inbetween or later on. Obviously, after the great disaster, you'd expect that some people "lost their faith". Which brings me to the question whether Mielikki has made the jump to 4E or not. I would expect yes, for obvious - Drizzt-related - reasons, but since I shed my interest for all the 4E / Spellplague garbage some time ago, I do not really care.
#41 drizztsmanchild Dec 13, 2008 4:27:04	I'm pretty sure someone on this site posted a list of the 4e pantheon gods somewhere.
#42 lord_karsus Dec 13, 2008 11:59:41	Near the beginning of FR 3E I actually noted to Rich Baker that with all the hubbub regarding "must have a patron deity" it would be good to include a note on somesuch in every FR statblock. He agreed to that and some (as in: very very few) actually had that - divine casters apart that is. -Going by the 3e version of the statblock, I see no reason why NPCs should have their deities listed, if they aren't Clerics of some kind. If there is going to be any mentions of their deity, it should be in any kind of biographical information that comes with the statblock. -With the "statblock" I was alluding to earlier, others had the deities that they served. Elminster had no such deity. This was, of course, before the Elminster novels were written, and before the Elminster we know today was born.
#43 Stigger Dec 13, 2008 14:34:59	Dunno, it could be helpful in getting a better feel of how the NPC might view the world... not really necessary per se, but it could have some use for someone.
#44 faraer Dec 13, 2008 16:44:12	Most favoured deity/ies is part of the NPC format used in the 1987 DM's Sourcebook, e.g. HAWKSTONE Wanders (Dragon Reach area) 6th level Ranger NG, Mielikki Human male If you're trying to describe a character in a limited space, conveying their favourite gods is a good use of it. Of course, this is a less definite concept than the 3E idea of patrons.
#45 _jarlaxle_ Dec 15, 2008 0:50:04	-Which isn't Forgotten Realms specific. ah right, didn't thought about it. Thanks...
#46 zanan Dec 15, 2008 5:19:09	-Going by the 3e version of the statblock, I see no reason why NPCs should have their deities listed, if they aren't Clerics of some kind. If there is going to be any mentions of their deity, it should be in any kind of biographical information that comes with the statblock. -With the "statblock" I was alluding to earlier, others had the deities that they served. Elminster had no such deity. This was, of course, before the Elminster novels were written, and before the Elminster we know today was born. I only spoke of FR statblocks and as Faraer already pointed out, it has been a feature before. Since each and every character of the Realms has to either a patron (or let's say "favourite") deity or end up in Kelemvor's wall, I do think it would have been a good addition to the statblock. Not least since it would only extend the block by 3 to 4 words.
#47 lord_karsus Dec 15, 2008 10:33:19	-And, like I said, in a short statblack, as per 3e, I see no reason to include such information, unless it's immediately relevant, like the individual being a Divine caster. -What difference does it make if it says this: Drizzt, CG Male Drow Ranger 15 / Barbarian 1 (or whatever) -or Drizzt, CG Male Drow (Mielkikki) Ranger 15 / Barbarian 1 -That should be put in the biographical information of the extended statblock, so that there can be some context as well (Why does this character worship this deity? How? When?)
#48 Stigger Dec 15, 2008 13:12:28	Well, it does give the DM some ideas as to how to portray them... depends on if you want to leave the minor details up to the DM or not. Some people like that sort of stuff... doesn't have an objective right or wrong answer, its just a preference.
#49 zanan Dec 16, 2008 17:47:06	Well, your 15th level ranger would have to have a patron or else would not be able to cast divine spells (FR devault rule). But that's just a sidenote. Point is that most FR deities and their worshippers also have straight "religious" opponents and while this is not of concern to everyone and at every time, it could very well be of concern to others.
#50 markustay_dup Dec 19, 2008 11:50:46	It has been stated by Ed, and within a couple of older sources IIRC, that most Faerûninas do NOT worship a single god, but rather pay 'lip service' to the whole pantheon, going by which is the most appropriate in the current circumstances. For instance, very few sailors actually 'worship' Umberlee... but they all make sacrifices to her before a voyage... if they know whats good for them. Of course, this doesn't jibe at all with what we kow about gods and their seprate little 'heavens' (or hells). Pantheonic Worship should mean that everybody goes to the same place, with only certain exceptional people getting to sit 'at the right hand' of their god (like the Einherjar in Norse Mythology). The fact that the canon concerning Faerûnians worshipping multiple gods disagrees with the canon about 'The False' just proves to me how little many designers (old and new) understood the setting. You can have Faithless in FR - the Imaskari are a great example of that - but you really can't have the concept of 'False'. The wall of the Faithless is great (and probably mostly Imaskari), but the False concept should be deep-sixed for everything to make sense (or rather, just combine the two, since 'The False' are technically 'Faithless').
#51 lord_karsus Dec 19, 2008 12:04:30	-The False makes sense to me: Those who profess to serve a deity, but, in reality, don't. They may or may not be Faithless. A Traitor-Priestess of Lolth, for example, would be False. She claims to worship Lolth, but in reality, worships Vhaeraun (though, that case is a little sticky, because the Traitor-Priestess does worship Lolth, so...). A better example would be the Selûnite priest from Road of the Patriarch. Everyone believed that he served Selûne dutifully. In reality (from what we were shown of him), he simply used his position as a way to gain power, curry favors, and so on. This is what I would define as False. -I don't like what happens to the False, and think that, rather, those who were False to specific deities should go to their realms for specific punishments. I also think that False should only apply to Clerics, and not laymen/women.
#52 Stigger Dec 19, 2008 14:08:15	Indeed... though as to whether or not laity were included is a kind of odd question I can see both sides to.
#53 markustay_dup Dec 20, 2008 12:35:31	I guess we all didn't like FR's afterlife for various reasons, and we all came up with our own little versions. As for me - if you didn't believe in the gods (which is preposterous), or just couldn't be bothered with them, you were False/Faithless, and ended up in the wall. Everyone else wound up in the fugue Plane (which I think of like the Greek Hades, which is NOT a hell), except for a few rare, exceptional individuals that their god came and got. Every once in awhile someone doesn't show up on the Fugue Plane, though... and no-one... not even the gods... know where they go. Spirits may opt to get 'reborn' as well, but they almost never remember anything from their last life. In that way, many can 'try again' for a better deal (or worse one, if they really screw-up). Thats just my take, of course - Godly domains shouldn't be heavens and hells for all worshippers, just a select few who stood out.
#54 wychlorne Dec 21, 2008 0:19:59	but thats my entire point....drizzt does not have faith in mielikki because he does not believe that she exists. in fact i dont think that he believes that any gods exist. rather he just named his ideas of goodness after mielikki. i mean sure he throws her name around in the novels but you could easily replace every place that the name mielikki shows up in his pre-chapter monologues with (my ideas/ and or my belief in goodness) and it would still make sense I'm curious as to your sources for this psychoanalysis. My interpretation of his dissertations on Meilikki (especially when graced with the appearance of a unicorn, her holy symbol) was that he very much believed that Meilikki exists and that her portfolio was most worthy of his worship. Luckily the Wall has been done away with in 4E so people don't have to worry about this form of discussion. :D Another reason I hate 4E. It ****ed up the Underworld, too.
#55 lord_karsus Dec 21, 2008 10:42:00	-I know in my own setting (which isn't the Forgotten Realms, of course, but the Forgotten Realms have influenced a lot of my fantasy-genre thinking), spirits/souls come from the Bastion of Souls, introduced in the adventure Bastion of Broken Souls. Upon death, the spirit/soul has three options: Be taken to their deity's domain, if they had a deity. Retain their memories, and "live" in my setting's equivalent of Kelemvor's domain- as "residents", with the actual worshipers of the deity of death acting as "police" there. The third option is to return to the Bastion of Souls, and be reborn, with no memories of their former life. Some, however, learn to unlock their memories of past lives.
#56 markustay_dup Dec 21, 2008 13:30:23	I'll have to look into that adventure. I use the Well of Souls - the name I got from the novel of the same name, but the rest is taken from my own ponderings (and sounds like the Bastion might be the canon I've been looking for). You know, sometimes I read a thread title and it takes me down 'funny paths' mentally... This one just had me picture a wall in Hell composed entirely of Drizzt-wannabes. :D All those 'Drizzt Fanboi' clones now get a special place in hell in my games. Edit: In other words... they are truly 'The False'.
#57 lord_karsus Dec 22, 2008 13:33:00	-The adventure itself was from Level 18-20 (It was really fun playing it, even though we never actually finished. Before starting that one, the highest level character I had was a Zeetvah Cleric 9. For the adventure, I created an Elven Wizard 18). The storyline itself was decent. Apparently, and this I did not know, there were other adventures that tied in to this one.
#58 drizztsmanchild Dec 22, 2008 22:01:29	Has anyone found out if Mielekki made the jump to 4e yet? And if not does Drizzt become a follower of another god by default or does he even follow a god now? And what about the other people in 4e who's god has vanished(who do the magic users pray to etc..)
#59 markustay_dup Dec 23, 2008 18:40:23	Shar would be appropriate to his angsty, Imo personality... probably her 'Entropy' aspect. Like his personality, its nothing but a sucking, black hole....
#60 lord_karsus Dec 23, 2008 21:51:33	Has anyone found out if Mielekki made the jump to 4e yet? -Yes. Miekikki is mentioned on page 80 of the FRCG. She is still a deity. And if not does Drizzt become a follower of another god by default or does he even follow a god now? -Depends on the situation: If she was retconned to have never existed, always being another entity, he'd be sending prayers to that entity. If she was killed and subsumed, he'd either continue praying to her, those prayers going to whatever "ate" her, or he'd choose a new deity. And what about the other people in 4e who's god has vanished(who do the magic users pray to etc..) -Same as the above. Note, your class/occupation doesn't have to influence your patron deity/ies. Just because you are/were a magician doesn't mean you have/had to worship Mystra.
#61 drizztsmanchild Dec 24, 2008 3:47:32	Well that should pretty much wrap up this thread then. Siince his god still exists and he pays homage to her then Drizzt will not end up anywhere but her realm with the rest of her followers. Unless he becomes a deity or such.
#62 lord_karsus Dec 24, 2008 9:41:11	-Or does something equally stupid- sell his soul to a Demon, betray his deity...
#63 drizztsmanchild Dec 24, 2008 10:00:41	But it would be out of Love. "An man/elf who sells his soul for love, has the power to change the world" Carter Slade.
#64 lord_karsus Dec 24, 2008 10:06:31	-He'd still wind up in the Nine Hells, or the Abyss. ;)
#65 wolf_bladegx Dec 27, 2008 3:16:52	He saw and touched the Unicorn though. didn't that solidify his faith since they only present themselves to certain individuals faithful to Mielikki?
#66 drizztsmanchild Dec 27, 2008 4:35:28	Yes he did and if this was still 3.5e then this thread probably woudnt have been posted. But I don't think anyone was sure if Mielekki was around in 4e until Lord Karsus graciously gave the info that she was. So rest faithfully with the knowledge that if drizzt stays along this course that he will not be punished in the afterlife.
#67 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Dec 30, 2008 21:44:10	He saw and touched the Unicorn though. didn't that solidify his faith since they only present themselves to certain individuals faithful to Mielikki? While he did meet a unicorn, I recall Drizzt deciding that faith is pointless if you have solid proof of what you believe, or something to that effect.
#68 drizztsmanchild Dec 31, 2008 1:43:54	But since he has proof that his god exists is he one that requires a daily sign showing that she still exists? I don't believe so. And by definition believing in a god(force) etc...without neding proof daily is having "faith" that the god is still there. Sounds like he contradicts himself when he claims faith is pointless. ;) Not a sermon just a thought
#69 Stigger Dec 31, 2008 5:03:30	The idea was probably true faith needs no proof at all... though I fail to see how having proof would be anything other than a confirmation of belief. Seems an odd thought to interject into a society where divine magic is a known fact...
#70 lord_karsus Dec 31, 2008 9:19:52	-Drizzt deserves to be packed into the Wall.
#71 drizztsmanchild Dec 31, 2008 11:28:36	Drizzt in the wall? Can you put a future god in the wall? Hmmmm. Words for thought.
#72 lord_karsus Dec 31, 2008 11:48:55	-A future deity? Hopefully not. But, yes, yes you can.
#73 rinonalyrna_fathomlin Dec 31, 2008 13:01:08	-Drizzt deserves to be packed into the Wall. That gave me a good laugh, thanks. I would agree that Drizzt's ideas about faith and religion are a bit, uh, odd in the context of the FR setting.
#74 Stigger Dec 31, 2008 15:03:38	A lot of the ideas coming out concerning religion of late make little sense in the context of FR's religious climate as far as I can tell.
#75 faraer Jan 01, 2009 21:16:23	Seems an odd thought to interject into a society where divine magic is a known fact... It only occurred in our world when the big monotheistic churches ran a scam to replace experiential religion with blind faith (don't worry if this stuff works, just do what the priests say and you'll be OK after you die).
#76 Stigger Jan 02, 2009 3:14:57	That was pretty much my point.
#77 lord_karsus Jan 03, 2009 23:20:59	-Yes. As in, it doesn't make much sense in the context of the general rules of the setting as a whole.