All that aside, what's with all the anti-Drizzt stuff I keep seeing on these forums? Don't get me wrong, if one visits online forums one must expect a certain level of blatant negativity, but this crap is everywhere.
Personally, I find Drizzt to be one of the most well-developed characters in modern mythology. He's been a great inspiration to me as both a freelance writer and as a person. Plus his fight scenes are THE best -- not "among" the best -- I've read in any novel (and I've read quite a few).
So help me understand from where all this negativity is derived, or stand with me in defense of a great character. Either way, this should be interesting.
Another is that there have been countless players who created cheap imitations of Driz'zt to play in their own games. I personally don't know how many there were, but there were enough that it got attention, and served to fan the flames of Driz'zt hatred. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, most of the hatred is directed at the Driz'zt clones rather than at Driz'zt himself. He just happens to get caught in the crossfire.
I personally don't know enough about Driz'zt (never read the novels and still new to FR), but in my opinion, Driz'zt is pretty cool. I mean, it's not like he's an overpowered Marty Stu like Elminster's reputed to be, and he's an interesting concept.
Actually he was initially intended to be a secondary character, a sidekick to the human character Wulfgar. But he proved so popular that he quickly took the spotlight, and the rest is history.
I think that covers all the major points. I asked this very question myself a couple years ago.
Don't get me wrong I thought the character was great when I read Streams of Silver Crystal Shard and the Halfling's Gem. I realy liked the Dark Elf trilogy too but beyond that I sorta tired of the character. And then so many people, espeically teens, starting doing Drizzt clones in D&D games and I really got sick of Drizzt and the drow.
Basically, I think the character has run his course and needs to be killed off or retired.
That my POV. I don't tknow if that addresses your question but I tried.
Nowadays I've relaxed a bit, since the War of the Spider Queen and the Spellplague changed things for dark elves quite a bit. But still, drow males running around the surface acting like pussies is not something I'm supportive of, so to keep things plausible I've come up this very simple rule; "have a good reason to play a good [aligned] drow".
I don't like him. In the books I've read with him he's whiny, naive, and frankly very two dimensional and boring. As for the Op's claim that his fight scenes are the best: I found them to be fairly blase. Overall I just found him to be an average to below average character.
And he's nowhere near as cool as the cool drow. Like Liriel Banre. Or Gromph Banre. Or Phauraun Mizzrym. Or Ryld (I forget his last name). Drizzt just isn't drow enough, even if he's good. And he's a pretty pathetic elf, too. Nowhere near as awesome as most of the non-drow elven heroes or villains. And Arilyn Moonblade just beats him up and down in cool points.
For me its not so much hate as a feeling of just being sick of him from overexposure.
Now you know how I feel about iPod.
"iPod" this, "iPod" that, "iPod-Ready," "Built for iPod," etc.
Now, where was I?
I have no hate on Drizzt. I have no hate on people copying Drizzt. We have many copycat PCs in the past before Drizzt came along (i.e., Strider-based rangers, Gandalf-based wizards, etc.)
Don't put your hate on a fictional character. Hate something concrete ... like iPod.
I've got a lot of mechanical beef with him, including his stats official stats not reflecting a character capable of anything near what the books say he can do, as well as bad experiences in both BG and BG2.
My real issue, however, is that Salvatore is actually a fairly good author (I love his Crimson Shadow stuff, and highly recommend people check it out) and none of that shines through when he's writing another instant paycheck book about an emotionally despondent fifteen year old whirling dervish with the power to kill the universe. They just aren't as great, exciting, or well-written as people make them out to be.
its the drizzt clones, i found it boring, and can only imagine how others feel about clones.
also it does contain to the fact that most dm and the older generation of players see the younger generation cant roleplay a drow worth a grain of salt, or are to busy telling the new gen that drow are evil yadda yadda yadda and by far are to tired of repeating themselves.
I have a cn drow bard, guess he is unligned when i can remake him.
i have a cg drow swordmage that was a swashbuckler in 3.5.
i cant do a evil character for jack, but i can be rude as they come or i dont give a rats arse about your problems go bug someone else quiet too.
anyway someone brought up obama and mccain.
IPEACH OBAMA and while we are at it IMPEACH McCCAIN too
For instance, I know a lot of people who hate Dragonlance because A) people overhyped it to them and B) they didn't read the Weis and Hickman books, which is a grave, grave error if you want GOOD Dragonlance.
Now, a much better character would be Waylander the Slayer, or Druss the Axeman from David Gemmell's books...damn, they are tough, very human, bastards, yikes!
The bit when Druss throws the axe into one big mouthed Nadir...*chunk!*, and then demands his axe back, and they give it to him...pure class!!! Wow.
I agree on the "drizzity" clones, ugh.
In my game years ago, pals had two drow characters, one was a transmuter, other was a rapier/main gauche fighter. They were definately not Drizzt's, did some nasty stuff but mostly decent:
"good, but good on their own drow-like, knife-in-the-ribs terms" ;)
The fighter earned the name "Sack Slasher", after how he fought giants....ow...ow...ow!! :D
Personally, I find Drizzt to be one of the most well-developed characters in modern mythology.
What development? The only development Drizzt went through is from an gleefull, psychotic killer in the Icewind Dale trilogy into the whiny, angsty whimp in all the other books.
- "Fanboys" and "Fangirls" who know nothing of the setting other than Drizzt, and as a result, say silly things (ie, "Drizzt is the strongest person there is").
- Players finding a myriad of ways to emulate him in their own games.
- The Drizzt series is becoming stagnant. In reality, it really should have ended a couple of books ago, but, because it sells, they keep pumping out books to make profits.
And as about not being Marty Stu-ish, it depends. In his own way, he is as morally upright and perfect as anyone, at least in the books I've read. Elminster may be one of the most powerful known mages and the boy-toy of Mystra herself, but imo he's had more development in his first book (or two books) than Drizzt ever has. Personally, I consider him somewhat more believable, character-wise.
Also, imo it's a pity how the Drizzt saga dumped some characters I also cared about - namely, Dinin and Vierna. The dissolution of the latter, particularly, into just another mortal-flesh, narrow-minded vessel of Lloth was practically painful. Sad, too.
Also, imo it's a pity how the Drizzt saga dumped some characters I also cared about - namely, Dinin and Vierna. The dissolution of the latter, particularly, into just another mortal-flesh, narrow-minded vessel of Lloth was practically painful. Sad, too.
-I, too, when I first reading, thought that Vierna would eventually be "redeemed", or whatever term you want to use.
All that aside, what's with all the anti-Drizzt stuff I keep seeing on these forums? Don't get me wrong, if one visits online forums one must expect a certain level of blatant negativity, but this crap is everywhere.
What constitutes the "crap" you are talking about? People just saying they dislike or are tired of Drizzt, no matter what their given reasons are?
If you want to post in a forum where the posters generally only have good things to say about Drizzt, you might want to check out the forums at rasalvatore.com. Those forums "self-select" posters who enjoy the character--these forums do not.
I agree 1000% about the Drizzt clones. In 3e, it got to the point where I wouldn't let players roll up drow characters unless they had read AT LEAST the Dark Elf trilogy so they could see how absurd a good-aligned drow really is -- not to mention how difficult to play.
I find that rather odd. You don't want Drizzt clones. Yet, if you tell people they have to read about Drizzt, why wouldn't you expect them to create a drow character that was heavily based on the experiences of Drizzt?
Like it or not, he's not the only example of a goodly drow character in the setting.
As for the Op's claim that his fight scenes are the best: I found them to be fairly blase.
It might well be true that RAS's fight scenes are very authentic and the author knows a lot of facts about swordplay (I'm not an expert on swordplay, so I don't know). However, even if that's true, I still find them pretty boring to read about. I much prefer dialogue and character development over endlessly detailed combat scenes.
As I suspected, a lot of people are unimpressed with Drizzt do to people hyping him up too much. That's perfectly cool, but it happens with a lot of things.
Maybe, but the bottomline is people feel about Drizzt what they feel about him. Just because "it happens with a lot of things" doesn't make their opinions less legitimate.
I'm only saying this because the tone of your post reads like this:
"As I suspected, a lot of people are unimpressed with Drizzt do to people hyping him up too much. That's perfectly cool, but it happens with a lot of things, so it's not really a good reason for disliking the character."
And after all, your very first post started off saying "this crap is everywhere." Not the best way to start off a supposedly friendly discussion, is it?
1: Second rate clones
2: Stupid fanboys/girls
3: Overexposure
4: His whiny emo outlook later on in the books
What development? The only development Drizzt went through is from an gleefull, psychotic killer in the Icewind Dale trilogy into the whiny, angsty whimp in all the other books.
*snort*
I don't think I would have put it in quite those terms, but that made me laugh!
Nowadays I've relaxed a bit, since the War of the Spider Queen and the Spellplague changed things for dark elves quite a bit. But still, drow males running around the surface acting like pussies is not something I'm supportive of...
So why'd you make an exception for Drizzt?
;)
Wow, a triple post. Good work Rinon. Haven't seen that for a while.
Thanks.:P I don't think the multi-quote feature is working. It's just easier for me to respond to posts as I get to them.
Secondly, I never once insinuated that someone else's opinion--or reasons for having said opinion--was in any way inferior to my own. That's a twist of my words. What I meant was exactly what I said and nothing more.
Thirdly, I'm well aware that there are plenty of other examples of good-aligned drow in the FR. Only reason I told people to read the Dark Elf trilogy first was because it was the only good intro book I owned at the time. Nowadays, I'd probably describe both the Drizzt series as well as the Daughter of the Drow series and lend the individual whatever they seemed to find more interesting (though it's probably smart to read at least Homeland first as an intro to Menzoberranzan).
So far, no one has listed an illegitimate reason for disliking the character. In fact, the only illegitimate reason I can think of would be if someone had never read any of the books and didn't want to because of massive fandom. Avoiding trends is in itself trendy, so to such a person I'd recommend they give at least one book a go so they could formulate their own opinion instead of relying on other people.
Last but not least, I make an exception for Drizzt "running around the surface acting like a pus*y" because that's what makes the character unique compared to other members of his race. When more drow males start running around the surface acting the same way, it diminishes the concept of both Drizzt and dark elves as a whole.
I havent read many Drizz't books but I like drow in general. I think a lot of people forget that he is the exception to the rule and not the rule itself.
Precisely, dude.
First of all, I find it a little insulting that someone would direct me to some R.A. Salvatore fansite when all I was doing was wondering why so many D&D players hated on Drizzt so much.
Well, I found this part of your first post a little insulting:
"All that aside, what's with all the anti-Drizzt stuff I keep seeing on these forums? Don't get me wrong, if one visits online forums one must expect a certain level of blatant negativity, but this crap is everywhere."
You've immediately disregarding the opinions you say you are inquiring about as "blatant negativity" and "crap". It's not that that's unbelievable offensive, but it comes off as dismissive.
Honestly, in all my years of gaming, I never encountered the trend until I started hitting these boards. I just found it to be a little curious, that's all. If I worded anything too strongly (for instance, using a word as unbelievably harsh as "crap"), that's just the way I talk and consequently the way I type sometimes.
Secondly, I never once insinuated that someone else's opinion--or reasons for having said opinion--was in any way inferior to my own. That's a twist of my words. What I meant was exactly what I said and nothing more.
Of course, but on a messageboard you need to think about how you word things, because words are all people have to go on. We don't have tone of voice, body language, or anything else.
I was not twisting your words, I was telling you how you came off to me.
Last but not least, I make an exception for Drizzt "running around the surface acting like a pus*y" because that's what makes the character unique compared to other members of his race. When more drow males start running around the surface acting the same way, it diminishes the concept of both Drizzt and dark elves as a whole.
Eh, I don't agree. If Drizzt could break away from the society of his birth (in a rather unconvincing way, I might add--there was never a time when he actually was evil, himself, even though he was surrounded by evil characters), I don't see why other drow couldn't do the exact same thing. I might even find the stories of those other drow to be a lot more interesting. Therefore, I don't think there's any reason why Drizzt must be set aside as unique.
Drizzt is special, yes, but once again, he is not unique. This is a setting where Eilistraee can visit any drow she wants to in their dreams, according to Ed*.
*And this point stands for the pre-Spellplague Realms even if things might have changed in 4E.
I also hate his fanboys, (and especially the Fangirls.. those of you that know what Mp is know damned skippy what I'm talkin about) who seem to think they must make a Drizzt character for themselves. And not even capture one tenth of the appeal that Drizzt might have had to start with. (And that's saying something considering I think his party is more interesting than he is and they're pretty faceless too in my opinion)
I do not like Drizzt because he came to symbolize everything that was -wrong- with Drow. (To say nothing about the other issues Drow possessed and probably still will ) I do not like Drizzt because there are probably more good drow in existence than the evil drow in existence. (and for a race that's supposed to be evil that's sad)
I don't like Drizzt because people feel that they have to be Drow cause "drow are hot" and then they make their characters good aligned.
I dislike the Drizzt series and novels by his author because he can't help but make Drizzt clones himself. (down to the flat personality in my opinion)
So ninety percent of my Hate comes not to Drizzt but his fans. The remaining ten percent is enough though that I'm like "meh, who cares about your existence.. really"
You're totally right about words being the only thing forum-readers have to go on. I'll work on my conduct in the future, but when it comes to my posts it's generally a good idea to assume a certain level of sarcasm. I don't mean to insult anybody, but at the same time sarcasm is more funny when people believe it.
Lastly and more on subject, I get what your saying about Drizzt's personality being a little hard to swallow. What's interesting is I think the same thing about Elistraee (even though I'm still a fan of the goddess). Y'see I find it interesting that when you describe the Drizzt Do'Urden series to someone, they automatically assume that the main character is some sort of anti-hero or at least someone who had to struggle with some inner demons. Drizzt is totally the opposite; he's just naturally a nice guy, which is representative of the power of free will. As a kid that meant a lot to me, because my parents were crack heads and I legally emancipated myself at the age of 16 (not going for pity points, btw, just stating facts).
Meanwhile, from what I understand of priestesses of Elistraee, many of them are former priestesses of Lloth that turned their back on the kin's wicked ways. Such a journey must be harrowing, but in my opinion a little unbelievable.
Either way, I'm sure we can all agree that in 4e, tieflings make both great anti-heroes and true heroes struggling with a dark heritage.
Drizzt is a wildly popular character within a subgenre of fantasy, which in itself isn't half as popular as some of the other media genres out there. We're a pretty selective group! So why are there so many complains?
Drizzt is mostly confined to books. Books. And he shows up in a fair amount of artwork which appears mostly...in, well, books.
And websites. But that's it, isn't it? Not so with the popular superheroes! You'll see a lot more kids dressed up as the Hulk this Halloween than Drizzt. Do you hate those superheroes, too? Talk about clones...
*sips champagne and checks solid gold Rolex*
Which brings me to another point; what in the name of all the Nine Hells were they thinking making the D&D movie as bad as it was? A well-made Drizzt movie would actually hook casual viewers with it's superhero-like plot and kung-fu style fight sequences.
A Drizzt movie would only be good if (1) it followed the plot of only one book (not trying to cram multiple stories into one), (2) it had R.A. Salvatore's approval of script and casting, (3) had a very good budget (no half-baked Underdark!), and (4) involved complete unknowns for the cast (especially Drizzt).
But this digresses a bit. Drizzt movie talk has been talked to death. Then again, that's sort of the point of this thread after all, isn't it?
Drizzt is cool. Stop being offended by his continued existence, is what I say. There's worse out there.
I say they follow the same formula as the upcoming Thor movie; most of the movie takes place in Asguard, and toward the end he makes his was to Midgard and hooks up with Iron Man and the Avengers.
The first movie would basically be Homeland with a bit of Sojourn mixed in (just to get some human characters in there). While Exile was my favorite of the Dark Elf trilogy, it's not necessary for one to know of all its events to "get" what Drizzt is all about.
I also agree with the no-name actors thing for most of the roles, but I wouldn't mind Drizzt being some crazy popular kung-fu dude from China.
And yes, the Drizzt movie thing is talked to death.
Anyone see the Dragonlance cartoon yet? Talk about wasted potential... and talk about CRAP!!!
Ashlock that is an EXCELLENT point...
It isn't, really. That's not to say it isn't valid, but while that argument may be sound, its has one very particular flaw: this is the Forgotten Realms.
The Marvel and DC universes are rather opposite the Forgotten Realms, as they are not intended for you to dive in headfirst and actually impact the world; you merely glimpse them through a 32-page window once a week.
It plays into something that always bugged me about the way the Realms were managed: the devs constantly reiterating that the Realms were "your world" and you were to run it the way you wanted to, and shortly thereafter they would attempt to stuff another Drizzt book down your throat.
Inevitably there became a glass ceiling made of characters you could never be better than - a ceiling that, with one hand they told you to ignore, and with the other they told you to buy into. He was the poster boy for a business plan that essentially created characters that became bigger than the setting they lived in, and insulted the intelligence of the FR fanbase in the process, to top it all off his books were nothing more than hot pieces of average to begin with.
Can I fault Wizards for marketing a popular product? No. But I sure as hell can criticize the way they went about it.
That said, I just can't get over the names of Driz'zt's weapons. As I once said, Twinkle reminds me of a nursury rhyme. And Icingdeath? Sounds like a birthday cake with a bad attitude.
Also I disagree about Drizzt being some sort of "glass roof". In all reality, he's not all that powerful, just a really good swordsman. Also, why does a character have to be powerful to be interesting? Few characters in DC can stand up to Superman (Captain Marvel, Batman, and a few others notwithstanding), and yet Nightwing comics are still interesting. He's not overshadowed in any way by the presence of more powerful characters.
And before anyone says anything, I reserve the right to compare pulp fantasy worlds of any kind. Sure, one world may be designed to be more interactive than the other, but at the end of the day it's all modern mythology.
Actually for most of the books Iceingdeath had no name, but then in the 3e FR Campaign Guide they named the sword after the dragon Drizzt got it from.
Also I disagree about Drizzt being some sort of "glass roof". In all reality, he's not all that powerful, just a really good swordsman. Also, why does a character have to be powerful to be interesting? Few characters in DC can stand up to Superman (Captain Marvel, Batman, and a few others notwithstanding), and yet Nightwing comics are still interesting. He's not overshadowed in any way by the presence of more powerful characters.
And before anyone says anything, I reserve the right to compare pulp fantasy worlds of any kind. Sure, one world may be designed to be more interactive than the other, but at the end of the day it's all modern mythology.
Emphasis mine. You may reserve the right to compare them, but I reserve the right to point out the fact that your comparison is flawed when you consider the point/purpose of each individual world. In this particular case, as I stated, its not a matter of one world being "more" interactive than the other, it's a matter of the worlds being interactive at all. That's the crux of the argument - no amount of blind comparison can take away the fact that they are different in both presentation and design.
Nightwing not being as powerful as Superman is really irrelevant here, so is Drizzt's ability to roll natural 20s all day every day for nearly 100 years straight.
- The Drizzt series is becoming stagnant. In reality, it really should have ended a couple of books ago, but, because it sells, they keep pumping out books to make profits.
Hmm. Stagnant but still selling. A textbook definition of irony.
-The Museum Replicas replicas of Icingdeath and Twinkle are inherently flawed, as they have Drow script on them, when neither weapon is ever mentioned as being Drow-made. They couldn't be Drow made, as, in 2e, Drow made things would have dissolved in the sunlight, and neither item has. The Reader's Guide to the Legend of Drizzt includes these pictures as well.
The rules for Drowcraft Weapons in 3.x had the same effect though they did come out with a special oil to temporarily prevent that.
Ok few other things, The Dragonlance movie... I like Dragonlance and though I agree it could have been better it was still done better then either of the DnD movies by far.
@AffableDoomwalker: now I take my reserved right to point out that while you believe his concept is flawed there is no proof to a flaw because it is 1)fantasy and thus fake and 2) his opinion and well inflawable for him as yours is for you.
If there were a movie put out about specific characters in particular Drow I hate to say this Drizzt would be a horrible choice. I would say Jarlaxle would be a better choice to follow, Mayby follow the Crystal Shard, heck even better of you want a series of Drow movies War of the Spider Queen. either one of those would work alot better then Drizzt.
-The Museum Replicas replicas of Icingdeath and Twinkle are inherently flawed, as they have Drow script on them, when neither weapon is ever mentioned as being Drow-made. They couldn't be Drow made, as, in 2e, Drow made things would have dissolved in the sunlight, and neither item has.
I believe Drizzt's original swords shattered during the first trilogy, some time after his exodus to the world above. Don't quote me on this, but I think it was while fighting a barghest he took a dislike to. I'm not sure where exactly he found his current weapons... I think one was crafted specifically for him by a wizard, and another was from a monster trove.
I believe Drizzt's original swords shattered during the first trilogy, some time after his exodus to the world above. Don't quote me on this, but I think it was while fighting a barghest he took a dislike to. I'm not sure where exactly he found his current weapons... I think one was crafted specifically for him by a wizard, and another was from a monster trove.
yes, Iceingdeath (found in a white dragon's trove) and Twinkle (which, iirc, was enchanted for him).
Again, neither of which are drow made weapons.
The names still sound silly to me.
not disagreeing.
...I'm having way too much fun with this.
Hmm. Stagnant but still selling. A textbook definition of irony.
-Hey, whatever.
yes, Iceingdeath (found in a white dragon's trove) and Twinkle (which, iirc, was enchanted for him).
Again, neither of which are drow made weapons.
-Right. Which was the original point.
Somewhere along the way, I missed why people are spelling it Driz'zt. Was that an accidental misspelling that just never went away, or is it some deliberate butchering of the original? Just curious. I've always wondered that. Surely by now everyone knows it's Drizzt?
-It's a common mistake, with people placing the apostrophe in "Drizzt", when the apostrophe is in "Do'Urden". Some people also refer to him as "Drizzit", which was the term that the scared farmboys used for him when the Drow first revealed himself. Saying something along the lines of, "Hi, I'm Drizzt", they ran away in fear, screaming something along the lines of, "Ahh! It's a Drizzit! Run!"
Apos'trophe's i'n fant'asy li'terature ar'e i'n'f'u'r'i'a't'i'n'g!
You might want to steer clear of the githyanki and githzerai, then. Helpful tip.
I don't mind the apostrophes, as long as they're kept to a mild minimum.
I used to like Drizzt when he was a "gleefull, psychotic killer"; now, just let the poor guy rest.
I don't hate Drizzt, I'm just bored with him. I don't think that there's anything more that's worthwhile saying about him. I think Drizzt should be retired.
I used to like Drizzt when he was a "gleefull, psychotic killer"; now, just let the poor guy rest.
I hate Drizzt because although I don't find him particularly objectionable in and of himself (apart from the angst) I think that the space on the Wizards publishing schedule (and publishing support resources) could have gone to other characters and other series that I enjoy a great more. And they didn't.
Your DM sounds awesome. That's how I roll too, doing everything in my power to give my players a hard time both in and out of game ("You didn't bring me an offering of beer and popcorn?! GO HOME, JERK!!").
It's funny; I've been DMing since I was a wee little lad, I've taught over 200 people how to play, and I've become something of an urban geek-legend in Orlando. The day 4e came out I had a good laugh because there were two people in the shop I had never met before talking about me, saying something along the lines of, "I hear he's a cool guy, but anything that can go wrong in his games WILL go wrong."
Personally I think I'm nicer than that, but I like having my reputation precede me. =)
She doesn't give us a hard time, nor an easy one. She just likes grim and morbid stuff. The last character she made has things happen to her that are better left unsaid, leaving her a broken shell of a woman who started seeing an imaginary wolf and suicidal/sadistic tendencies up the wazoo until the warforged paladin she would later marry helped her overcome it.
This gave me a good laugh. I can't stand anime cosplayers, fanboys, fangirls, or whatever the hell else you call em. They're like "w*ggers", but worse; some w*ggers actually grow up in ghetto neighborhoods and are thus actually a part of the culture they're accused of emulating (btw, I hope I didn't offend anyone by using the term "w*gger"; seriously, I'm the opposite of racist). Meanwhile, these "Otaku" jerks have little to no understanding of real Japanese culture; if they did, more of them would have JOBS instead of leeching off their parents well into their mid-20s.
I'm not saying all anime is terrible or that all anime fans are idiots, I'm just saying that when you obsess over a culture you don't understand you're a total poser.
All that said, I think I might actually throw said elf at my players one day, just to keep em on their toes. Likely I'll have food and ashtrays hurled at me before the night is through, but if I can't mess with my players what the hell is the point of D&D?
someone needs to actually come here to Japan and catch a clue. The animes are scarily close to reality. and disturbingly accurate windows into Japanese society.yes, the high-school girls do wear their skirts that short.
and you would not believe the number of cosplayers at the Tokyo Game Show.
So yeah, um... yeah...
/endrant
yes, the high-school girls do wear their skirts that short.
Apparently not short enough, but that's just me.
yes, the high-school girls do wear their skirts that short.
and you would not believe the number of cosplayers at the Tokyo Game Show.
Terrifyingly enough I am with Proin on this one. I have studied Japan, travelled in Japan, speak Japanese (badly) and am marrying a Japanese woman (woohoo) with an intention of living there later on. All of the above really are indicative of certain aspects of the culture.
And to all our Japanese friends out there, I hope I didn't insult anyone because I have nothing but respect for such a hardworking culture. I just wish more anime fans would make an effort to understand things like Shinto Buddhism and Imperialism so they could appreciate the rich history behind Japan and -- consequently -- the animes they love so much (I also wish they'd get jobs and stop leeching off their parents, but that might be a regional trait of anime fans here in Orlando).
I mean, imagine someone who watched Israeli TV every day and still wondered what the Torah is. That person wouldn't come off as very intelligent, would they? Same thing. In the age of the Internet, there is no excuse for ignorance.
For instance, as someone who loves D&D, I've taken the time to read up on European mythology and pagan society. No, this does NOT make me special in any way; it's just a natural extension of my preexisting interests and IMO a basic understanding of such things enriches the D&D experience.
WotC: How to sell more 4e in Japan - make a (good!) anime.
By the way, when exactly was Drizzt a gleeful, psychotic killer? His undetailed 10 years in the Underdark?
A lot of fantasy adventures could make kickass anime, especially if they didn't botch it too bad. I'm wondering if there couldn't be an early Elminster one, as well - although in heroic fantasy warrior-types tend to be the leads, and mage/sage types the supporting cast.
I suggest you check out Bastard!!, then (the manga moreso than the anime). Dark Schneider is definitely a 'caster.
By the way, when exactly was Drizzt a gleeful, psychotic killer? His undetailed 10 years in the Underdark?
-Yes, that was when he developed his "Hunter" persona.
Meanwhile, from what I understand of priestesses of Elistraee, many of them are former priestesses of Lloth that turned their back on the kin's wicked ways. Such a journey must be harrowing, but in my opinion a little unbelievable.
I don't see that as any more unbelievable than being raised in such a completely evil city yet somehow remaining more or less untouched by it all, in the sense that Drizzt always seemed to "know innately" that everything being taught to him was morally wrong, even though he would not have had anything to compare his experiences to.
While I like the concept of Drizzt, as I've mentioned in other threads, I was never very impressed with the actual execution of the character. I don't think Salvatore is the greatest writer, and while I've enjoyed the Drizzt novels over the years, I've certainly never read them because I thought they contained achingly beautiful prose, or even necessarily great character development. Drizzt has nearly 20 books to his name, but for all that text, he hasn't changed that much since his debut in The Crystal Shard. What change is there happens at a glacial pace. Granted, I understand Drizzt's fans (and perhaps the author himself) not wanting the character to change very much--readers picking up a Drizzt book probably do--to an extent--want to get out of Drizzt exactly what they expect to get. I can entirely appreciate that, especially since the concept quite literally sells. However, that ultimately means there isn't that much actual growth to be had for the character, who in my opinion was only very simply drawn from the start.
Again, Drizzt has about 20 books to his name. It is for that reason that I cannot buy into the argument that someone creating a PC who is similar to Drizzt (or just a good drow) somehow "takes away" from Drizzt and his story. Come on--does that freshly made PC have anything on a character with a 20 year old franchise of novels? The idea that some poor fan could somehow "take away" from the veritable Drizzt empire is an idea that I find to be indefensible.
By the way, when exactly was Drizzt a gleeful, psychotic killer?
I actually thought what was being referred to was the devil-may-care, "I love killing orcs/giants/goblins!" Drizzt of the earlier books who was described as "playful" and quick to dive into danger but always managed to come out on top. As I recall, this worried the heck out of Wulfgar (who was Drizzt's "student" of sorts in the earliest books) who was at times afraid that Drizzt would lead them into a situation they couldn't fight their way out of.
Here's a quote from Drizzt before he became so careworn:
""Allow me to begin again," Drizzt said. "Greetings, Akar Kessell." He bowed low.
"I am Drizzt Do'Urden, ranger of Gwaeron Windstrom, guardian of Icewind Dale. I have come to KILL YOU!!!!!!! RAAAAAAAAAAWR!!!!!!!"
Okay, I sort of changed the last bit.:P Not the words though, just the tone.
It plays into something that always bugged me about the way the Realms were managed: the devs constantly reiterating that the Realms were "your world" and you were to run it the way you wanted to, and shortly thereafter they would attempt to stuff another Drizzt book down your throat.
At least the Drizzt books didn't change much of the setting beyond RAS's own little "corners", though. I certainly couldn't say the same for other books. And while I would agree that the novels certainly play up the talents of the protagonists, at the end of the day they are still mostly in the low-to-mid level range (except for Drizzt, who does lean toward being high level).
yes, Iceingdeath (found in a white dragon's trove) and Twinkle (which, iirc, was enchanted for him).
I remember Malchor Harpell giving Drizzt Twinkle from his personal collection, and he mentioned that it was made and I think enchanted by surface elves. Was it mentioned in the text that Malchor further enchanted it for Drizzt?
@AffableDoomwalker: now I take my reserved right to point out that while you believe his concept is flawed there is no proof to a flaw because it is 1)fantasy and thus fake and 2) his opinion and well inflawable for him as yours is for you.
That's not how discussions involving critical thinking work. Just because the subject is "fantasy" doesn't mean nothing about it can be critiqued. Just because everyone has an opinion doesn't mean everyone comes to their opinion using facts or sound reasoning (and therefore, it can be critiqued).
I actually thought what was being referred to was the devil-may-care, "I love killing orcs/giants/goblins!" Drizzt of the earlier books who was described as "playful" and quick to dive into danger but always managed to come out on top. As I recall, this worried the heck out of Wulfgar (who was Drizzt's "student" of sorts in the earliest books) who was at times afraid that Drizzt would lead them into a situation they couldn't fight their way out of.
Here's a quote from Drizzt before he became so careworn:
""Allow me to begin again," Drizzt said. "Greetings, Akar Kessell." He bowed low.
"I am Drizzt Do'Urden, ranger of Gwaeron Windstrom, guardian of Icewind Dale. I have come to KILL YOU!!!!!!! RAAAAAAAAAAWR!!!!!!!"
Okay, I sort of changed the last bit.:P Not the words though, just the tone.
Gwaeron Windstrom? I thought he worshipped Mielikki.A Drizzt anime WOULD be quite cool, I'm not gonna lie. "Batman: Gotham Knights" was one of the coolest things I've ever seen, and I think a Drizzt anime could work in the same fashion; 5 or 6 stories by different studios each showing a different aspect of the character. The Entreri/Jarlaxl episode would easily be the best.
And to all our Japanese friends out there, I hope I didn't insult anyone because I have nothing but respect for such a hardworking culture. I just wish more anime fans would make an effort to understand things like Shinto Buddhism and Imperialism so they could appreciate the rich history behind Japan and -- consequently -- the animes they love so much (I also wish they'd get jobs and stop leeching off their parents, but that might be a regional trait of anime fans here in Orlando).
I mean, imagine someone who watched Israeli TV every day and still wondered what the Torah is. That person wouldn't come off as very intelligent, would they? Same thing. In the age of the Internet, there is no excuse for ignorance.
For instance, as someone who loves D&D, I've taken the time to read up on European mythology and pagan society. No, this does NOT make me special in any way; it's just a natural extension of my preexisting interests and IMO a basic understanding of such things enriches the D&D experience.
I didn't really want to reply to your last post about us american cosplayers but this I have one for, Not all cosplayers are uneducated in Japanese culture, me for example I take whatever material I can find to study it but then again I would love to go to Japan one day, not for the anime/manga/games but for the scenery. In different area's you will find different types of people with different ways of doing things, heck I know a cosplayer that lives where I am from that is what you described there, someone that leeches off there parents but there are also many of whom that like me have jobs and work for what we like/love.
Now back to topic, I actually don't think a Drizzt Anime would sell as great as people think, heck the comic books didn't last very long... I think they only got the dark elf trilogy complete if that much.
The problem with Drizzt is: He's not redeemed. He is an expert Swordsman who has NEVER EVER done anything truly evil. It is as if his alignment was written into his DNA. He was always good in a world where good people are dead people.
Zaknafein was interesting, he did things he wasn't proud of. He heard the screams of children who died because of him, and didn't like it. Zaknafein would have been a great redeemable character, but instead he had to die two times, so the completely two-dimensional Drizzt could survive. Vierna too could have been a great, interesting character. But she became just another Lolth-priestess and got killed.
Drizzt is unrealistic, bland and two-dimensional. That's enough to not like him. The hate is because he steals away the spotlight from drow who would make better role-models for good drow in the realms, and because of his popularity all good drow are branded as Drizzt clones. In NWN there were persistant world servers where you were forbidden from making a good drow, just because of Drizzt....
I actually don't think a Drizzt Anime would sell as great as people think, heck the comic books didn't last very long... I think they only got the dark elf trilogy complete if that much.
The comics are still going strong. They are past Starless Night now. They've even compiled the seperate installments as 8 graphic novel volumes. That doesn't happen unless a book sells well.
http://devilsdue.net/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=24&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=53
On top of that, they've started turning short stories about Drizzt into comics as well.
-He does. A lot of older sources have been changed. The DM's Guidebook to the Realms, for example, lists Elminster as an ordinary Human Wizard, with no mentions of him worshiping Mystra, and someone else...Dove, I think, as worshiping Tymora, and not Mystra.
Gwaeron Windstrom is demigod servitor of Mielikki. I would say Drizzt worships both. Drizzt invoked the name of Gwaeron more often in the earliest novels, whereas now, he pretty much never invokes that name.
Bear in mind that the Realms is a polytheistic setting and the vast majority of people don't only worship one deity.
On top of that, they've started turning short stories about Drizzt into comics as well.
True. However, I would like to point out that they are adapting FR short stories starring other characters besides Drizzt, such as "Elminster at the Magefair."
And on top of that, they are also doing short stories from other settings, such as Ravenloft and Dragonlance.
-He does. A lot of older sources have been changed. The DM's Guidebook to the Realms, for example, lists Elminster as an ordinary Human Wizard, with no mentions of him worshiping Mystra, and someone else...Dove, I think, as worshiping Tymora, and not Mystra.
Dove most likely worships both Tymora and Mystra, btw.
I know her sister Storm has invoked both those divine names in a few novels.I don't think Drizzt has changed his preferences with regards to deities, so much as RAS has, for some reason, stopped mentioning Gwaeron and is now only mentioning Mielikki. I recall back in The Crystal Shard that it is made clear that Drizzt is devoted to both deities.
I suggest you check out Bastard!!, then (the manga moreso than the anime). Dark Schneider is definitely a 'caster.
I already have, though I left the manga after chapter 30 or so. You have a point, but imo Bastard, Slayers, and their ilk are more of an exception to the general rule. Compare them to the throngs of samurai anime, or anime about warriors in general. There's a crapton of those.
Anyway, Arcas_Shan is right to point out that Drizzt was never, per se, evil - at most, in his Hunter days, he was CN* . There's nothing inherently wrong about that - society occasionally produces misfits and ne'er-do-wells (in his case, ne'er-do-bads), Drizzt is one of them. No big deal. He does seem a bit on the bland/two-dimensional scale, but imo not overmuch so. Rejection of one's former life and zealous following of a new moral dogma are not uncommon in the real world, so I'm not too impressed when it happens in fantasy.
* and I'd argue that though he occasionally might have acted evil, Zak was CN as well (Vierna was probably CE, maybe with CN tendencies - we know VERY little about her life outside of how impacted her brother). Frankly, I'd prefer to have Dinin and Vierna alive, either in Jarlaxle's employ or as free agents. Baldur's Gate II bent the history of Menzoberranzan a bit with Viconia's backstory, though I doubt anyone objected.
nakeee Eilistraee Worshipers...
Kicking someones butt nakee is the ultimate butt kicking...
Yet when I looked deeper into it, Eilistraee is quite an interesting deity, due to some aspects often understated. Yes, her followers are usually considered pacifists and conciliatory, and relatively harmless (for drow), but she has a tendency to attract some of the most dangerous individuals you don't want to meet. Her being a goddess of the hunt, for one. Imagine a wild hunt with drow (or painted elves) silently and swiftly running down their quarry, chasing it and killing it with reckless abandon like a group of frenzied satyrs - only quietly, with only slight rustling of the leaves to mark their passing. You can run - but you'll only die tired.
Another interesting aspect is that she is a deity of swordplay - especially the fancy bladework that many of the more civilized elves favor. It is, perhaps, another of elvenkind's secrets - and one that many of the most skilled elven warriors come to uncover - that the Dark Maiden is the patron of those who truly master the blade.
As far as I know, Drizzt did not know about Eilistraee for quite some time; definitely the first trilogy has no mention whatsoever of her. He mentions her demise in The Orc King prelude, though.
Drizzt has nothing on...
nakeee Eilistraee Worshipers...
Kicking someones butt nakee is the ultimate butt kicking...
Eilistraeean priestesses are nude for certain rituals, but they don't spend most of their time that way. Usually, they dress in whatever is appropriate for what they are doing, and that means wearing armor in combat.
Depending on what you mean by worshipper. She has an all-female clergy (though this might have changed with the supposed assimilation of Vhaeraun or however you spell it), but does not have a problem with male worshippers. Whether she would grant spells to males who venerate her as rangers, pious templars, holy liberators etc is anyone's guess.
Eilistraee does except male clergy, but they are rare, and according to Ed Greenwood prospective male clerics must spend some time (magically) in the female form.*
Eilistraee will accept any kind of follower (that is, lay worshipper)--male or female, drow or non-drow.
*Please note that this is before the Lady Penitent series.
Eilistraee does except male clergy, but they are rare, and according to Ed Greenwood prospective male clerics must spend some time (magically) in the female form.*
I admit I have not heard that. Where is it from?
I admit I have not heard that. Where is it from?
Well, number one, there's no rule in 3E saying Eilistraee cannot have male clerics (there was such a rule in 2E, though, IIRC). As for what Ed said--that's from "Ed's Answers" over on Candlekeep.
I admit I have not heard that. Where is it from?
-Ed Greenwood's replies.
Drizzt has nothing on...
nakeee Eilistraee Worshipers...
Kicking someones butt nakee is the ultimate butt kicking...
Are you sure it's kicking or li- ... err, nevermind.
Picture if you will (I always wanted to say that) a material that is as light as leather, as comfortable as silk, as strong as steal, and is COMPLETELY INVISIBLE. :D
I'm picturing a see-through Gei, or some other loose-fitting diaphanous garment for fighting in.
Not only does it protect you, but your oponents get a -1 for the distraction (-2 for males?). :D
pervert
Okay... now you got my 'ebil DM' gears a' whirring....
Picture if you will (I always wanted to say that) a material that is as light as leather, as comfortable as silk, as strong as steal, and is COMPLETELY INVISIBLE. :D
I'm picturing a see-through Gei, or some other loose-fitting diaphanous garment for fighting in.
Not only does it protect you, but your oponents get a -1 for the distraction (-2 for males?). :D
-Such armor enhancements already exist in the Magic Item Compendium. Making something lighter and see-through, anyway.
Well, number one, there's no rule in 3E saying Eilistraee cannot have male clerics (there was such a rule in 2E, though, IIRC).
Although there was a kick butt prestige class called the Sword Maiden open only to females. Always made me mad, I loved that class!
Although there was a kick butt prestige class called the Sword Maiden open only to females. Always made me mad, I loved that class!
And you could have used it. You just had to play a female.
:PAnd if you didn't want to do that, you could simply tweak the class. I don't recall any special class abilities dependent on the PC's gender.
Eilistraee does except male clergy, but they are rare, and according to Ed Greenwood prospective male clerics must spend some time (magically) in the female form.*
/confused.
except as in "specifically exclude" or accept as in "specifically allows."
I'm assuming the latter, but I've 90% given up assuming without clarification on stuff like this.
Although there was a kick butt prestige class called the Sword Maiden open only to females. Always made me mad, I loved that class!
Personally, I'd expect any male champtions of Eilistraee to be Dervishes, maybe with the odd Holy Liberator/Pious Templar if your DM agrees to have her grant spells on a male. Dervishes are cool enough, kick ass in combat and are close enough to the fluff. Combat-oriented bard builds could work, too - and a drow bard/warblade could kick ass from here to next Shieldmeet ;)
/confused.
except as in "specifically exclude" or accept as in "specifically allows."
I'm assuming the latter, but I've 90% given up assuming without clarification on stuff like this.
-'Accept'.
Personally, I'd expect any male champtions of Eilistraee to be Dervishes, maybe with the odd Holy Liberator/Pious Templar if your DM agrees to have her grant spells on a male. Dervishes are cool enough, kick ass in combat and are close enough to the fluff. Combat-oriented bard builds could work, too - and a drow bard/warblade could kick ass from here to next Shieldmeet ;)
-There's a PrC in DRAGON magazine #315 that's pretty cool. The "Sin Eater of Eilistraee".
Anyone here think the drow in general have a bad reputation because of Drizzt?
-They have a bad reputation among people who play/read D&D, because of players who try to emulate Drizzt in some shape or fashion, sure.
Anyone here think the drow in general have a bad reputation because of Drizzt?
Call me small-minded, narrow-minded, or plumb ignorant if I believe the above statement to be true.
If Drizzt were any kind of creature other than a drow, would it similarly tarnish that group of race?
Anyone here think the drow in general have a bad reputation because of Drizzt?
Drow PCs, yes. Drow as NPCs/monsters, not so much -- at least not in my gaming groups. Drow are scary to fight.
Originally i thought that this Drizzt guy was ok. I wasn't a crazy Drizzt Fan, but he wasn't to bad. It didn't make me want to run out and read all of the novels, but my general love of fantasy & living in a small country town lead me to reading what i could get my hands on.
Then as time went on & i read more of the novels, i discovered that Drizzt was a little dull, more a one-trick-complaining-pony then an actually interesting character. They tried to replace personality with gimics. As soon as a gimic lost its edge, they just replaced it, with something more outlandish. Salvatores actual writing style, irks me for some reason, so that probably didn't help any.
More time passed and my general dislike of Drizzt fomented into full out hate, as i played in a Forgotten Realms game, where half the group played Drizzt clones. One played a drow ranger, one played a drow druid (with shadow panther), one played a drow wizard (whose name was Z'Ttrid & who had a pouch of figuirines of wonderous power).
It became boring & now we have, approximately 10 books that directly involve Drizzt. Lets not mention the comic book adaptations of the Drizzt novels, or the equally bad spin-offs about Drizzt's friends.
Over-exposure has soured Drizzt & for a while it soured all of the realms. That was the main reason that they re-booted in 4E.
What i boils right down to for me, is that the Drow are a really boring race. The are illogical & badly thought-out. Later novels try to correct this, but really are just beating a dead literary-horse.
Its not that i hate Drizzt (ok, maybe i hate him), its that i am tired of a mediocre character, that for some reason everyone seems to think is the best thing since fire (& inevitable internet flame wars). To me, it makes more sense to introduce new characters to bring in new players & new modes of play.
Anyone here think the drow in general have a bad reputation because of Drizzt?
A bad reputation with whom? Drizzt and drow in general apparently sell a lot of product.
In addition to what's been suggested above, I would add that some people who aren't fond of drow think they are overused/overemphasized in various D&D products (and usually, there's another group that they think should spend time in the spotlight, like dwarves). Drow are popular partly thanks to Drizzt's popularity.
More time passed and my general dislike of Drizzt fomented into full out hate, as i played in a Forgotten Realms game, where half the group played Drizzt clones. One played a drow ranger, one played a drow druid (with shadow panther), one played a drow wizard (whose name was Z'Ttrid & who had a pouch of figuirines of wonderous power).
It became boring & now we have, approximately 10 books that directly involve Drizzt.
More than that--almost twenty.
More than that--almost twenty.
-Without factoring in short stories.
I like Drizzt and Salvatores books in general but I allways skip the cursive parts where Drizzt is crying around.
Although everyone has the right to like or dislike any character for any reason I often get the impression that it's "cool" to hate drizzt.
IMHO many people think they are experts because they hate drizzt instead of liking him like many new people who come to the FR do.
Of course thats not everyone who doesn't like him but in my opinion there is no diffrence between those people and those kiddies who allways play Drizzt clones.
Sure I'm not reading his books but ....
-Oh, yes. That's the best part of DMing. "No, that does not exist in my world. No, that doesn't exist in my world, either..."
Or, which may be even nicer "No, that may exist, but not as a PC".
If you don't like it, don't read it
You did understand that I was simply stating a fact, right?
This wasn't a reply directly to you but to the whole thread ;)
I'm with Jaraxle really... though for some people it isn't enough to not participate in the party, they must campaign against going to the party, and in some cases they'll crash the party in an attempts to ruin it.
....
Seriously, though, a big part of this is "My D&D" agnst on the behalf of us who dislike anything popular.
Not all but a big part.
Its almost like owning noobs and fanboys is fun.
You know who I hate? The "lady" of pain... I've always thought, what a stupid bit of "Trash ex Machina" but apparently, astoundingly, its loved by many.
Its sad that people "hate" on drizzt, yes it gets corny that some many makes a drizzt clone, DID you see that Order of the Stick that said "male drow come with scimitar standard"?
For better or worse Drizzt is a big part of the D&D world now and I think thankfully, because he is so iconic that he pulls in the big cash.
In one sense that is good for the game that means there'll be more available funds and interest for Wizards to hire "MORE" authors... meaning well frankly you have a chance to do better.
Lastly... it can be funny, my friend who DM's has what he calls "The Drizzt Test" in which when at camp at relatively low levels a lone drow comes to the camp and asks for a place by the fire. Everyone knows the drow and thier infamous reputation and draws arms
However, before the attack the dow declares "I am Drizzt Do'urden, great and noble hero of the realms" The drow stands there laying his short sword and long sword down on the ground open handedly diplaying a gesture meaning "peace". (Intentionally Low: Untrained Knowledge check. but all kinds of people have heard mention of this strange oddity)
Palading can prepare to detect but he bluffs saying "I just emerged from the underdark and will detect as evil do to the strange and evil Faerzness that pervades that dark place, I only need respite, as I have been seperated from my compaions.
....
Now... the test is how many people try to metagame when seeing the swords and know that it isn't drizzt. Though the part where the paladin detects and says "He's evil" and the drow rationally and charasmatically explains "Sir, and gentle folk, I told you before hand I would detect as evil" ...
What's funny is I've seen him pull this stunt 3 times on 3 different parties and it went almost exactly that way each time.
Now... what I'm saying about all of this is, don't hate join the party.
All of those Big Bad-A Faerun types exist for you to use a props in your games, use them then as props.
In the end you'll come out better for it.
I'm sorry, i couldn't help myself.
Lastly... it can be funny, my friend who DM's has what he calls "The Drizzt Test" in which when at camp at relatively low levels a lone drow comes to the camp and asks for a place by the fire. Everyone knows the drow and thier infamous reputation and draws arms
However, before the attack the dow declares "I am Drizzt Do'urden, great and noble hero of the realms" The drow stands there laying his short sword and long sword down on the ground open handedly diplaying a gesture meaning "peace". (Intentionally Low: Untrained Knowledge check. but all kinds of people have heard mention of this strange oddity)
Palading can prepare to detect but he bluffs saying "I just emerged from the underdark and will detect as evil do to the strange and evil Faerzness that pervades that dark place, I only need respite, as I have been seperated from my compaions.
....
Now... the test is how many people try to metagame when seeing the swords and know that it isn't drizzt. Though the part where the paladin detects and says "He's evil" and the drow rationally and charasmatically explains "Sir, and gentle folk, I told you before hand I would detect as evil" ...
What's funny is I've seen him pull this stunt 3 times on 3 different parties and it went almost exactly that way each time.
-What happened, in the end?
This wasn't a reply directly to you but to the whole thread ;)
OK, fair enough then.
yeah tell us
They did what any good party would do logically. Kill and eat the Drow.... after the Cleric casts Commune or whatever it is that lets him have a simple yes or no answer from his or her god. "Is he lying"
Right?
Now a true good party, would allow him to camp with them for the night (sorry Detect Evil doesn't detect evil intent... and that is what a TRUE Paladin fights against) with an armed guard or two obviously watching him at all times.
18DELTA (Seeking Drizzt Salvation by Cyric!)
and Cyric will see the Light that is Cyric, or has he already read that book he penned and this has come to pass?
10)Unrealistic Stats in comparison to his listing in the companion book
9)His Cat that doesn't follow the rules for figurines of wonderous power
8)The fact he's like 5 feet tall and yet intimidating in the books??
7)The multitude of Drizzt Clones out there(close tie with Legolas Clones)
6)The speed with which he can travel(luskan to icewind dale and back in the blink of an eye)
5)His obsession with Cattie Bria(he's like 350 years old,,,can you say **** :P
4)His DRY prologues at the start of every chapter
3)His "Oh i am so misunderstood" attitude
2)His "everything in the realms is about and revolves around me" attitude
1)The authors attempt to turn EVERY single one of his books into a diatribe against organized religion,,,,like it's his own pulpit.
5)His obsession with Cattie Bria(he's like 350 years old,,,can you say **** :P
Drizzt's about 70 or so years old. Since both parties involved--Drizzt and Catti-brie--are adults (for their races), there's no pedophila.
. So in all fairness we have to give DD a bit of break.Salvatore did not manage to endear me to his characters. I did not feel particularly bad when Zaknafein was killed, nor did I feel any sympathy, ever, for when Drizzt had a rant every chapter about losing himself to his savage persona. I do not see this as a failure on my part, but on his, Salvatore left no room to connect, Drizzt was good to a ridiculous level, and his dark side felt tacked-on to me.
The plot was incredibly predictable, with a meager few intriguing twists to be found. Who here can say that when the old ranger mentioned the orcs nearby that they didn't automatically know that Drizzt would have fought them at some point. We all knew that Zaknafein was too good to survive in Menzoberranzan, and we knew that at some point Guenhwyvar and Drizzt would be united.
Drizzt was too perfect in the story, for every defeat he suffered it seemed like he had 80 victories in battle. I personally couldn't feel concerned about him even when he was getting his ass handed to him because I knew that Guenhwyvar or Kellindil or somebody would pull a Deus Ex Machina and take on the whole (insert evil beasties here) army by themselves.
Top 10 things to hate about Drizzt
10)Unrealistic Stats in comparison to his listing in the companion book
9)His Cat that doesn't follow the rules for figurines of wonderous power
8)The fact he's like 5 feet tall and yet intimidating in the books??
7)The multitude of Drizzt Clones out there(close tie with Legolas Clones)
6)The speed with which he can travel(luskan to icewind dale and back in the blink of an eye)
5)His obsession with Cattie Bria(he's like 350 years old,,,can you say **** :P
4)His DRY prologues at the start of every chapter
3)His "Oh i am so misunderstood" attitude
2)His "everything in the realms is about and revolves around me" attitude
1)The authors attempt to turn EVERY single one of his books into a diatribe against organized religion,,,,like it's his own pulpit.
10. Who cares? its hard to put stats on a novel character. they do things PC's generally cant do in a game.
9. Gwenhyvar is not a typical figurine of wondrous power. her origin is explained in a short story actually.
8. Drizzt is a Drow and the best swordsman in the north, if not the world. People SHOULD fear him regardless of his size.
7. Again, so what? if someone enjoys playing a certain type of character, let 'em. You're a damned liar if you say that none of your characters have any aspect of other characters you've seen or read and liked.
6. again, so what? If it moves the story along, doesn't matter.
5. Im not touching this one, because it seems like its probably meant to be sarcasm.
4. Yeah, i hate the prologues too.
3. Well, he IS misunderstood. Hes a gooder-than-good drow, an abberration among his people. I personally can relate to that.
2. Well actually, his attitude is nothing like this. He just makes a lot of powerful enemies and allies, and thus big events DO tend to revolve around him through no fault of his own.
1. I never got this feeling from the books. Care to give examples?
So, why do you REALLY hate this character? Im guessing its just because hes a popular male warrior character in a setting chock full of uber-mages that dominate all. Though i've been wrong before.
I had a DM introduce him as an NPC and thought it was brilliantly played (I had never even heard of Drizzt prior to him walking into our group while in the Underdark). The DM had a complete rationale for him to be looking for us and it played rather well in the story.
Then I read the Icewind Dale trilogy. While they were an entertaining read and I can understand younger people being highly intrigued with them, the books were. . . unimaginative.
It felt like I was reading the D&D version of DaVinci Code. There was no part in the books that I felt like I really connected with the characters and cared if they lived or died. Or that they were even truly challenged. Sure, the showdown between Drizzt and Artemis had potential but I was more interested in Artemis' moral ambiguity and choices over Drizzt's angst and need of an electric razor.
Then I encountered clones. And when you're a person that prefers deep roleplay, like I do, encountering 27 different players over the course of 12 campaigns that all played Drizzt clones and did their level best to emulate his angst without any other character development. . . it grates.
At this point, I'm completely. . . "meh" about Drizzt.
If you don't like it, don't read it
I like Drizzt and Salvatores books in general but I allways skip the cursive parts where Drizzt is crying around.
Although everyone has the right to like or dislike any character for any reason I often get the impression that it's "cool" to hate drizzt.
IMHO many people think they are experts because they hate drizzt instead of liking him like many new people who come to the FR do.
Of course thats not everyone who doesn't like him but in my opinion there is no diffrence between those people and those kiddies who allways play Drizzt clones.
I have read the series, I know what I liked about it, and what I don't. The series was a decent read, and the battle scenes were not too bad, but I'm fairly spoiled, after reading Robert E. Howard's work, I've never found better battle scenes in literature and Salvatore's battle scenes were good, but tended to bury me with unnecessary details. I also felt that Salvatore tended to supercharge Drizzt's emotions and when the old ranger died it was like they didn't exist, still, it was nice that he didn't go on an angst-ridden whining spree. And by the way, I decided to stop liking Drizzt of my own accord, nobody else's, you can think whatever you want, I don't care, just don't go around accusing everyone of being a follower.
Drizzt's about 70 or so years old. Since both parties involved--Drizzt and Catti-brie--are adults (for their races), there's no pedophila.
No ****. Just a May-December relationship.
Drizzit is only 70, which is still pretty darn young for a drow.
Geez, people, can't you just leave fantasy characters' sexual habits aside? Next thing you will be asking why Conan didn't die from siphilis before his 30th birthday!
You've got him there
-Hey, there's nothing wrong with loving someone who is older than you.
This is indeed the case. I never quite got my head around the societal "norm" of the male being the elder... at least the western societal.
My good lady, for example, is 3 years my senior... although I don't mention this unless I fancy some new bruises ;).
-In the context of Drizzt and Cattie-Brie, to get this back to Drizzt, I will say that I find it a little creepy. Drizzt has known Cattie-Brie since she was a little girl (What? 10ish?), and developed a loving bond with her, to be sure, but I'd say that it was a platonic, "I love you like a father" type love. Anything more, as is the case, and it is a bit creepy. But, then again, we have Mirt with his young ward seducing him and all that, so...
I love playing drow characters, I find them a fascinating species, but I hate it when they get pigeon-holed into either two classes, one are Drizzt clones and the other are Lloth clones. I like them as PC's to run the gammot, from chaotic good to chaotic evil(male or female), and then have a story as to why they are on the surface, if thats where your setting is. I think that the earlier statement made, that if Drizzt was any species other then a drow we wouldn't be having all this controversy. Again just my two cents.
...and the other are Lloth clones.
-Well, mainstream Drow society is dominated by Lolth and her clergy, so...Though, even within this number, I do agree that there can be a large degree of variance, that really isn't seen too much in novels/sourcebooks.
-I have no doubt that Drizzt loves Cattie-Brie, and she loves him back, but I find it disturbing that it's become something sexual in nature, whereas, in the past, it was a platonic, almost familial love. Drizzt was like an uncle to her, in effect. It's like a babysitter entering into a relationship with the kid that he/she watched 20 years ago.
In that type of world I don't think its as bad as real life. In real life if somehting like that happened the women would be 20 and the male would probably be in hos 40's or 50's. Physically Drizzt is still in his prime being an elf and he isn't a blood relation and wasn't her adopted fther. The ick factor doesn't apply as much IMHO.
Anyway I thought Drizzt was a great idea and interesting character but has since become a caricture of himself maybe. CG Drow Ranger
sorta thing.In that type of world I don't think its as bad as real life. In real life if somehting like that happened the women would be 20 and the male would probably be in hos 40's or 50's.
Not everyone in the real world sees age gaps (even of that length) as inherently "bad", although of course there can be downsides to them.
In that type of world I don't think its as bad as real life. In real life if somehting like that happened the women would be 20 and the male would probably be in hos 40's or 50's. Physically Drizzt is still in his prime being an elf and he isn't a blood relation and wasn't her adopted fther. The ick factor doesn't apply as much IMHO.
-No, in a world where adopted daughters actively seduce their foster fathers, this sort of thing is extremely minimal on the "ick scale".
I don't know how much Drizzt was even around when she was growing up. he spent alot of time out on the tundra.
Drizzt wasn't her foster father though.
He knows, that was part of his point...
Drizzt wasn't her foster father though. Its an interesting take on a scenario with long lived races and the problems they have if they fall in love with a human.
I don't know how much Drizzt was even around when she was growing up. he spent alot of time out on the tundra.
-It's a reference to Mirt the Moneylender, not Drizzt.
For example, my good-ish Drow, Chessi, did not leave her home because she spontaneously developed human cultural values, she ran because when she began Clerical training she quickly realized she was too squeamish, too much of a softie, and lacking the necessary wisdom score to succeed, and that it was very likely that she'd be killed in a remarkably unpleasant way shortly. She isn't uncommon in the slightest, it's just that normally Drow females like that are killed in remarkably unpleasant ways. The most un-Drowlike thing Chessi did was swallow her pride and run away, then luck her way through the Underdark to the surface.
She's still selfish, just not sociopathic or violent, and is far more concerned about her own wellbeing and luxury than anything else. She only started becoming anything resembling Good when she had interacted with humans and others who treated her nicely for some time.
As for Drizzt, well, he had Zak, I suppose, but where did Zak get his alignment from? The novel just seems to imply that he spontaneously knew what was right and what was wrong without any real source named. Furthermore, of all the places Drizzt would go, Icewind Dale seems the worst. As a subterranean species, Drow would be used to static, warm temperatures, so a cold place with variable weather would be a terrible environment for him. And I know he'd get acclimatized, but after spending over half a century in caves, I doubt it.
The only time Drizzt expressed any unfamiliarity with the surface world was when he noticed the days getting shorter and didn't understand it. Other than that, for some reason his ranger skills that worked underground worked on the surface, never mind that there is life everywhere on the surface and very rarely underground, there are no shared species, and things we consider fundamental like weather and day and night are meaningless there.
Personally, I find Drizzt to be, overall, one of the most well-rounded characters in the entire Dungeons and Dragons literature. Alongside him is Artemis Entreri (particularly when he does the right things for the wrong reasons, thus adding a nice duality to him), Midnight/Mystra (except for her last appearance, which was inexcusable on the part of the author), the Simbul (who is my favourite of the Chosen), and Gromph Baenre (though he could certainly use to have his background filled in a little more... especially if it were to take another trilogy about him!). Elminster's amazing, but he's the archetypal wizard and therefore not very original, complete with being skilled at everything from disguises to advanced magical theory.
Bear in mind that I refuse to deal with 4E realms, so I am not up-to-speed on any recent changes to any of those characters (except for a brief read-through of his entry as I read through the 4E FR Campaign Guide, which left a very, very sour taste in my mouth (really, I went and brushed my teeth afterwards)). In 3.X, however, I thought they were the best characters in D&D (with a brief addition of Pharaun... **** you Quenthel!).
"I love Cattie-Brie but I shouldn't, plus she was the wife of my best friend.
Girlfriend. Cattie-brie was never referred to as Wulfgar's wife.
Its true that there is enough fanboys who just say crap things and dont know the character, but this is not the character.
Like everything in life, something who is loved, get free hate just because of it.
Personally, I have nothing against Drizzit. I am not saying he is a –GREAT- characters, nor am I saying he is a terrible one. I find him an alright character, below Artemis and Jarlaxle. However I respect the author greatly for keeping his book’s release dates on time. *Shakes his fist hatefully at a certain author people have been waiting for since 2005*
Interestingly I developed this theory of mine, a lot of the first people to dislike Drizzit, had a lot of well-founded argument, wether it be his disturbing relationship with a woman he saw group up since ten, or his journal entries at the start of every act. However, I have been lead to believe, that a lot of people saw this ‘Not-a-fan of Drizzit’ club, as the ‘Smart Dudez Club’ (please do not hunt me for writing that terrible title) and immediately decided to join their argument without and beliefs of their own.
I love drizzt and i have enough personality to not let my judgement of a character be affected because of his popularity.
Yeah, I know, this whole issue about a fictional character comes down to a lack of personality in people! Good thing some of us actually are able to psychoanalyze total strangers on the internet to find that out (must be because we just have more personality than they do).
Also it irks me that he ended up as a ranger when it was clear to me that his training should have produced a fighter, or at best a multiclassed character.
For me the clones are annoying but no more so then any other "Monster PC", I wish the devs had kept the monsters as monsters and not options for players. (Luckly for me DnD is a racist setting so I'm not expected to be nice to the monster with a heart of gold.)
Also it irks me that he ended up as a ranger when it was clear to me that his training should have produced a fighter, or at best a multiclassed character.
Drizzt did start as a fighter, then learned how to be a ranger on the surface with Montolio. What that means in game terms depends on what edition you're using--for 2E, Drizzt "converted" from a fighter to a ranger, in 3E, he was simply multiclassed.
I don't expect novels based on games to follow the rules to the letter, but at the very least the major rules of the universe should be followed.
Of course that is ignoring what I consider to be the larger issue, without the blantent protection of plot he would have never survived childhood in the first place.
Yeah, I know, this whole issue about a fictional character comes down to a lack of personality in people! Good thing some of us actually are able to psychoanalyze total strangers on the internet to find that out (must be because we just have more personality than they do).
You are half right. In the internet people dont refrain certain actions or behaviors. It is sometimes the perfect place to see the real personality or inner fellings of someone.
I not said everyone who hates drizzt have a lack of personality, just that its the majority. I was also affected by it, as my favorite comic hero in 90´s was Wolverine, but after he becomes the everyone fav hero, it lost much of his appeal.
Today i see i disliked him for no clear motive, but i cant like him now as i used to before.
Thats it.
My memory may be failing me, but I don't remember rules for "converting" your class in ADnD, and if I remember correctly his write-up for Third Edition didn't match up according to his abilities in the novels before he learnt to be a ranger from the old man.
I'm not saying that the write-ups followed the rules (or were accurate, for that matter), so much as recounting the explanations I've heard for Drizzt's game stats.
Of course as I mentioned before the sheer level of "protection of plot" Drizzt enjoyed his entire childhood ruined the character for me even more than the fact that the character breaks some of the basic rules of the game.
*Edit*
Actually I thought that everyone was being relatively calm considering the subject we are discussing.
I have run a lot of Under-Dark Campaigns. Not a single NPC or PC even remotely acts like Drizzt. They act like normal back-stabbing power-plotting Drow. My players drive on the turmoil on those kind of high intensity games.
Sure I've had beginning characters come up to me and ask: "Can I play a Drow ranger?" My answer is always the same: "No, You want to play a nature loving ranger-then play a wood elf, You want to play a Drow? Great, just concentrating on surviving, because even if you want to escape from the under-dark like Drizzt did, you'll probably never make it."
Funny thing is even if the player starts off telling me his character is going to want to escape (Like Drizzt did.), by the second game section the new Drow in question is looking for some ploy or another to get rid of a family member, back-stab someone, or raise in rank some other way... as the game progresses any thoughts of imitating Drizzt has fled the players minds. Menzobarranzan is just too much fun for the player, (May not be fun for the characters, but it's fun for the players.)
It's up to the D.M.s not to allow Drizzt clones, or to prevent it from happening, I don't get tired of Drizzt, because I don't allow his clones into my games, and I have never played under a D.M. that did allow Drizzt clones into their games.
It's up to the D.M.s not to allow Drizzt clones, or to prevent it from happening, I don't get tired of Drizzt, because I don't allow his clones into my games, and I have never played under a D.M. that did allow Drizzt clones into their games.
-Half of the "problem" with Drizzt clones isn't from D&D. It's from, say, Neverwinter Nights, or "fan-fics", and other things like that.
-Half of the "problem" with Drizzt clones isn't from D&D. It's from, say, Neverwinter Nights, or "fan-fics", and other things like that.
You're probably right, I did a survey with him on my players and pretty much got... 1= wants to play him, 2= like him but see no purpose to imitate him, 2= indifferent toward him, 1= would like him, but is so sick of hearing about Drizzt that he hates him, and 1= thinks he is that poster boy that you just want to slap...
They all agree that that they would love to hunt him down and kill him because their must be a beautiful juicy bounty offered for him in Menzobarranzan... go figure.
Very nice art.
Give me Viconia over Drizzt any day...
Agreed, agreed! I loved Viconia's backstory from BG II. Come to think of it, I'd take an evil drow over a good drow any day. In general I'd always take evil over good... *shrugs*
But yeah, whenever I hear of a good-aligned drow, that has a panther or anything like that... I usually find myself resisting the urge to hunt down said person. Of course that may just be my own tainted mind.
It's up to the D.M.s not to allow Drizzt clones, or to prevent it from happening, I don't get tired of Drizzt, because I don't allow his clones into my games, and I have never played under a D.M. that did allow Drizzt clones into their games.
I think it's unfortunate, though, that wanting to play a non-evil drow is deemed by some people as the desire to create a "Drizzt Clone", as if there are no non-evil surface drow in the Realms besides Drizzt.
Agreed, agreed! I loved Viconia's backstory from BG II. Come to think of it, I'd take an evil drow over a good drow any day. In general I'd always take evil over good... *shrugs*
Viconia, while evil, bears some similarities to Drizzt--a noble drow from Menzoberrazan, was a bit "soft-hearted" for a drow (when asked to perform a certain ritual of Lolth), escaped to the surface and now follows a different goddess.
Apparently, if she was good and/or possessed a magical statuette, she'd be considered by some to be a "Drizzt Clone".
You see I think that is the real reason most people dislike Drizzt (I think hate is really too strong of a word.), he simply is not a belivable character, from what I remember of V's backstory, she was at least plausible.
-Yup, like I said, Drizzt doesn't have ranks in philosophy or psychoanalysis. And yet, he's a pro.
He is?
:P
I don't think there really is any sort of Drizzt hatred. It is more a certain annoyance of the amount of publicity he receives even though he is not a mover and shaker ... nor, IMHO, a good role-model for an RPG player. I would even be bold enough and say that most Drizzt - "lovers" (if there are such people) aren't FR roleplayers either. More people drawn to the setting after / while reading the novels. But that's just a gut feeling.
Better drow? Well, as a role-model for people wanting to play not-that evil drow, I would recommend Valas Hune of the War of the Spider Queen series. He's not downright evil, but clever and opportunistic enough to thrive in drow society. And he is at home outside of a drow city as he is inside. If you would like to take the buscuit, make your character a female drow and you have a job at your hand that could fill two players' lives!
BTW, superheroes and all, Drizzt might be "cool". But do read Shadows of Doom and see how Sharantyr of the Knights of Myth Drannor slays 37+ Zhentarim in melee combat ..., this takes some beating ;)
any and all of mine are cheaters at golf
I remember this orc paladin in an FR novel named Shield of Innocence, thinking about him reminds me of Drizzt. Come to think of it, he's even worse than Drizzt. Drizzt loves to kill monsters, he has a bad side in him.
RAS on the other hand...well, I really don't like the way he writes...let's just say that HE PUTS TOO MUCH EMPHASIS ON THE FIGHT SCENES, and not on the plot itself...it's like the plot is rushed....and the fight scenes aren't....making the book long...sometimes I don't even understand the fight-scenes anymore due to too much details...lol
Kinda irritates me sometimes when I think about it.
I think I like a story with a longer and more elaborate plot compared to RAS novels...Like Margaret or the guy who wrote Elminster....If you compare their books, you'll notice that they don't try to jot out every piece of action that happens during a fight. But thinking about it after you finish the book, kinda gives you this feeling that you just read something epic.
Though I find myself agreeing with you otherwise, for the most part anyway.
Apparently, if she was good and/or possessed a magical statuette, she'd be considered by some to be a "Drizzt Clone".
She can supposedly get to neutral, and I usually gave her the spider statuette from Pai'Na or whoever her name was (the drow? with the spiders in the Amn catacombs). Does that count?
I think Drizzt's character is kinda cool....He's values are pretty understandable/being a good drow....he's just being rational when he thinks too much.
I remember this orc paladin in an FR novel named Shield of Innocence, thinking about him reminds me of Drizzt. Come to think of it, he's even worse than Drizzt. Drizzt loves to kill monsters, he has a bad side in him.
RAS on the other hand...well, I really don't like the way he writes...let's just say that HE PUTS TOO MUCH EMPHASIS ON THE FIGHT SCENES, and not on the plot itself...it's like the plot is rushed....and the fight scenes aren't....making the book long...sometimes I don't even understand the fight-scenes anymore due to too much details...lol
Kinda irritates me sometimes when I think about it.
I think I like a story with a longer and more elaborate plot compared to RAS novels...Like Margaret or the guy who wrote Elminster....If you compare their books, you'll notice that they don't try to jot out every piece of action that happens during a fight. But thinking about it after you finish the book, kinda gives you this feeling that you just read something epic.
I personally enjoy RAS' writing style. It's very technical, and quite different from anything else I read. I'll concede the point that he seems to neglect the plot sometimes in favour of combat, but the hallmark of Drizzt is not just his rarity as a specimen of good drow, but also his excellent swordsmanship. RAS still manages to maintain the adventure portion of the Sword and Sorcery genre rather well, though, despite the fact that he likes to rush toward the big scenes.
To tell you the truth, I prefer that to books that have 40 straight pages about a boring dirt road that winds along open plains for three days. I don't read books to get a sense of what travel is like, I read books to read about the daring adventures undertaken by fantasy characters. One of the most notorious examples of books with too much emphasis on the actual travel was from the Avatar Series (either Tantras or Waterdeep) where it went on and on about the traveling. I understand that it's an adventure, but adventures are remarkable not because of the distance traveled (though it is a factor) but because of the deeds done. Now both of those books had plenty of other stuff that went on, but I felt bored reading parts about Kelemvor, Adon, and Midnight as they wandered across ragged terrain to suddenly... wander across ragged terrain!
Now the War of the Spider Queen series, on the other hand, had enormous distances traveled (including travel to other planes). It punctuated the different stages with lots of events, however, and I was never bored reading through it.
But I digress, we've branched quite a distance here from the Drizzt hating. Back to the topic of the conversation, I say.
If you don't like Drizzt, the proper response is: to not read the books. The majority of FR novels and campaign material have nothing to do with him.
If you think a player in your group is aping Drizzt to much, the proper response is: suggest a more interesting character background and/or recommend a more original race/class combination.
That's it, nothing you say about the character is going to erase his 20 novel history. Just let it go and put your purchasing power towards things in the Realms you do like so you'll be rewarded with more of that content.
I dislike Drizzt a lot less now, and a lot of it has to do with the character actually being a character, without going into full review-mode:
- I'm happy with the way that Drizzt isn't even really the star of the books he's helping to sell.
- I'm happy with the way Wizards is using Salvatore to make a useful contribution to FR lore; having read my FRCG long before before I read Pirate King, I spent about a week trying to figure out what kind of slip-ups Duerdumont had made that could have so deftly laid Luskan low.
- I'm happy with the degree of fallibility and the consequences that the books' principle players all have to deal with. Especially Pirate King... the ending of Pirate King was frigging sweet, sweet high-fantasy delicious.
All in all, it was really an improvement in the usual story arcs I was used seeing
She can supposedly get to neutral, and I usually gave her the spider statuette from Pai'Na or whoever her name was (the drow? with the spiders in the Amn catacombs). Does that count?
Does it make Viconia a Drizzt Clone? To me, no. To others, apparently so.
And yes, if you romance Viconia you can influence her to change her outlook on life (and thus, her alignment) to neutral in the Throne of Bhaal expansion.
To tell you the truth, I prefer that to books that have 40 straight pages about a boring dirt road that winds along open plains for three days. I don't read books to get a sense of what travel is like, I read books to read about the daring adventures undertaken by fantasy characters.
You say that as if a fantasy book either has to have long, detailed scenes about battle or long, detailed scenes about travel. I'm sure you realize that isn't true.
And yes, if you romance Viconia you can influence her to change her outlook on life (and thus, her alignment) to neutral in the Throne of Bhaal expansion.
-Can you make her a Dark Lord of the Sith?
-Can you make her a Dark Lord of the Sith?
I wish!
-Can you make her a Dark Lord of the Sith?
Technically, yes. Storm of Vengeance is one mighty potent piece of spell.
Although I'm not about to read through seven pages of this thread a second time, I don't remember seeing anyone claim that Viconia was a Drizzt clone in the first place.
I've been discussing Baldurs Gate and Baldurs Gate 2 for years and this is the first time I've really heard it. I don't think Viconia is similar to Drizzt at all, for one thing she isn't a brooding master of psychology like he is. Neither is she a dual wielding good aligned ranger (she's a decent cleric, who suffers from a hideously pathetic strength until you fix that with a belt of frost giant strength or something).
It would be fair that I think her character took inspiration from Drizzt.
Of course, I should note (happily in fact) you can kill Drizzt and many of his friends to take their stuff in Baldurs Gate 2.
Personally however, I think he's a bit too coherent to have a degree in psychology. :D
I'm going to guess its from all the angst-filled introspection he does... an amateur perhaps, but still. ;)
Personally however, I think he's a bit too coherent to have a degree in psychology. :D
*LOL*
Anyway, that'd kind of my point. I don't see how writing a bunch of navel-gazing journal entries make him a master of pyschology.
How is Drizzt a "master" of psychology?
-For a mid-level Ranger with no ranks in any relevant Knowledge: Philosophy or Knowledge: Psychology skills, Drizzt knows too much, and expresses concepts too inherently "deep" for his own good.
-For a mid-level Ranger with no ranks in any relevant Knowledge: Philosophy or Knowledge: Psychology skills, Drizzt knows too much, and expresses concepts too inherently "deep" for his own good.
Well, we all know how RAS feels about stats.:P
Okay, I'm reaching, but still... :D
i think also the transition from 3 editions has had some wear on the character. hes definitely exceeded all expectations from his creation as a secondary character in wulfgars saga. but his role as the highest selling character in realms fiction puts him in an odd place. drizzt isnt your typical character or even one most dms would allow but at the same time hes the face of the franchise. to new gamers he says realms more than elminster.
in 2nd he was the nastiest fighter in menzoberranzan 17th level before he even left. but apparently that made him too unrelatable so they tuned hm down. in 3rd he was a 12th level ranger see your character can be just like drizzt! and it made him almost unreadable as pretty much every character anyone played had better swords than the mythical twinkle and icingdeath.
now 4th edition has arrived and no one even knows if he fits.
i suggest that you just aknowledge him as "the best there is at what he does" and move on. next time you talk to a noob it should go something like this.whos the most powerfull wizard? elminster you wont be meeting him hes got big wizard things to do. whos the most powerfull fighter? drizzt hes killing stuff you cant. okay whos the most powerfull cleric? your 1st level you should worry about zombies not priests. whats a zmobies armor class? now u got it.
Statting antagonists isn't generally too bad, but statting the high level NPCs like Elminster and others was a complete disaster for me. Especially Drizzt, because it was really hard to take such a weak character (by numbers) seriously as doing half the things he could do in books. I much rather these characters never get statted and it's just left to the DM to decide their relevant power levels. Personally, Drizzt would have to be at least lowish epic levels by the time he's done what he's done.
Then there was the ever stupid arguments about their stats. This is something I really REALLY like being left entirely to the DM. If 16 is the ceiling, that's what they are. Official stats make that incredibly complicated to deal with, because PCs invariably know them and it just gets worse when they are also fans who agree/disagree strongly with the particular stat choices.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
in 2nd he was the nastiest fighter in menzoberranzan 17th level before he even left. but apparently that made him too unrelatable so they tuned hm down. in 3rd he was a 12th level ranger see your character can be just like drizzt! and it made him almost unreadable as pretty much every character anyone played had better swords than the mythical twinkle and icingdeath.
now 4th edition has arrived and no one even knows if he fits.
Nay. He was a Fighter 17 in mid-AD&D, when he left Menzoberranzan. He was turned into a Ranger 16 in late-AD&D to accomodate his novel related stuff. That was all pretty much against the pretty strict rules back-then, dual-classing not open to "demihumans" and all. 3E - as it can be constructed more freely, took all the novel stuff in, made him a Fighter 10 / Ranger 5 / Barbarian 1 (unless I am mistaken) in the FRCS 3.0E, giving him a good fighter-background for his Menzo time, a few levels as ranger when he was up at the surface and a level as barbarian since he fell into this hunter-rage (and nothing better rule-wise was available) later on too. 4E, if he ever makes it, will build him as something plugged together from all the optional stuff a character can get, I would assume. Not that I want to know.
in 2nd he was the nastiest fighter in menzoberranzan 17th level before he even left. but apparently that made him too unrelatable so they tuned hm down. in 3rd he was a 12th level ranger see your character can be just like drizzt!
Not quite. In 2E Drizzt started as an 18th lvl fighter then "converted" to a 16th lvl ranger after he was mentored by Montolio (Zanan, are you sure it was a case of dual-classing?). I've never heard of that having anything to do with making him "more relatable", and if that was the case they did a poor job, because the character as a ranger could still do things no normal PC of that class and level could do. In 3E, his levels were "broken down the 3E way" by having a couple levels in this or that as a way of representing how he developed over his life (ie. 10 levels in fighter from his childhood in Menzoberranzan, 1 level in barbarian that he (supposedly) obtained from his time alone in the Underdark, 5 levels of ranger after being mentored by Montolio).
Not quite. In 2E Drizzt started as an 18th lvl fighter then "converted" to a 16th lvl ranger after he was mentored by Montolio (Zanan, are you sure it was a case of dual-classing?). I've never heard of that having anything to do with making him "more relatable", and if that was the case they did a poor job, because the character as a ranger could still do things no normal PC of that class and level could do. In 3E, his levels were "broken down the 3E way" by having a couple levels in this or that as a way of representing how he developed over his life (ie. 10 levels in fighter from his childhood in Menzoberranzan, 1 level in barbarian that he (supposedly) obtained from his time alone in the Underdark, 5 levels of ranger after being mentored by Montolio).
Well, I know for sure that he was given as a Fighter 17 in the Menzo box, while later books (Heroes' Lorebook, The Accursed Tower et al) gave him as a Ranger 16. By AD&D lore, this is not possible, as only humans could dual-class, while demihumans had the option of multi-classing. All quite restrictive since you could hardly adapt a character to a radical change in lifestyle (like Drizzt had), but very much in the past anyway. He's not the "worst" example though, as that belongs to this cleric / wizard Rai-guy. He was so tremedously out of any rules that it beggars belief. But he's for another thread. IMHO, Drizzt did not walk the dual-class track, they simply re-adjusted his levels and made him a ranger. The "He simply rangered not that much in the Underdark, but the two-weapon fighting style and all, you know ..." sort of explanation.
These days, I would make him a Fighter (Menzo years) / Scout (surface) and that would explain nigh everything he gained and did so far.
He's not the "worst" example though, as that belongs to this cleric / wizard Rai-guy. He was so tremedously out of any rules that it beggars belief. But he's for another thread.
Start that thread*--you've piqued my interest.;)
*If you want to.
Start that thread*--you've piqued my interest.;)
*If you want to.
Well, it doesn’t take that long.
By default, drow (rule-wise being elves in AD&D) had the following options as characters (amongst others Complete Elven Handbook, Demihuman Deities):
Core - Fighter, Mage, Priest, Thief, and the following multi-class options: Fighter / Thief, Fighter / Mage, Mage / Thief, and Fighter / Mage / Thief … no, I did not forget the Ranger class.
Optional (DD) – Cleric, Crusader, Druid (usually drow “Gray Druids” of Ibrandul only), mystic, and Specialty Priest (i.e. Amorphites, Arachne, Darkmasks, Masked Traitors, Sword Dancers, and Yathrinshee), and while drow Priests were not usually allowed to multiclass, some faiths had class combinations: Fighter / Cleric (Ghaunadaur, Lolth, Selvetarm) plus Cleric / Thief (Vhaeraun)
Psionics were optional too, but I did not do much psionics back then.
Now, by lore, Lolth did have some male clerics in her faith (4%) and she “very rarely” allowed them to rise above 7th level. Rai-guy was an accomplished mage as well as being a cleric of Lolth, able to cast a delayed blast fireball amongst other things. Now, as you may know, back then XP were equally split between the classes and without checking for the exact data, e.g. a character that had gathered 500,000 XP would either be a fighter 13, a thief 15 or a Fighter 9 / Cleric 10 (the level they would have achieved with 250,000 XP spent on both classes). The XP tables back then were different for the various classes, thieves, druids and specialty priests rose fastest, while fighters and the like did not. The tide turned at higher levels though, something people may still remember from Baldur’s Gate I and II.
Anyway, to be able to cast the spells he did, Rai-guy would have needed to be a mage 13 or something. Using the split-XP, that would have made him a cleric 11 as well, which would have been very very rare indeed, given the fact that Lolthite male clerics hardly rose above level 7. By now you might also have noted that there actually is no class combination for drow that is Mage / Cleric anyway.
And 3E did away with all this anyway, as the male clergy of Lolth was simply written out of the books.
In essence, as with other stuff, RAS drew and quartered the rules for this chap, as he did with other things. That’s what you call an author’s freedom.
By now you might also have noted that there actually is no class combination for drow that is Mage / Cleric anyway.
Oh, trust me, I did.;)
Thanks for indulging me with your explanation.
Oh, trust me, I did.;)
Ha! Heretic! Off into the corner and hang your head in shame! :D
jander: "think you have problems?! tell me some of these issues."
throws drizzts journal at him.
drizzt: "well i can't look out in daytime without my eye-"
jander: "eyes hurt. in the daylight, you say. hmm? mmm hmm. yeah. i turn to ash. but go on. strum the violin on eyes hurt."
drizzt: " people don't like me- "
jander:" -because your different? can't interact with people. i see. not like you might suck their blood out of torn throats lapping it off a sanatariums floor?"
drizzt:"erm no- "
jander:"shut up. you have no concept on 'problems'. im a freakin vampire. -ffshh drow. i wish i were a drow, its not like i would be a flaming vampire or nothing right? "
drizzt: "hey, don't make me angry. the hunter in me might come out and i lose it- "
jander:" lose it like kill a whole flock of sheep or helpless women from a sanatarium? tearing them to pieces? then letting out the rest of the crazies into the streets of water deep? killing the only thing you ever loved in 500 years?"
drizzt:" um no... but there was this basilisk statue one time in the underdark-"
jander: "shut up."
:P