This would of lead to some intresting stories and potentiol Campighns for Players. Such as, a campighn to bring a band of drow to the surface who are seeking redemption, and then the after affects of them founding their own city/reinteracting with other elves. I could see several conflicts happening because of it.
But instead we get this garabage... That their skin turned Brown. Making them look just like Wood/Wild elves. So they can suddenly go from be regonized a mile away as a evil elf, to suddenly. "Oh hey, welcome to our fair city my good wood elf. And yes. I consider dark elves nothing more the wood elves now. why, because if it quaks like a dock, looks like a duck. and espically tastes like a duck. :D its a duck.
Wonder how Drizzt will react when he wakes up and see his skin brown and his hair black? Also, wonder how Cattibrie is gonna react when she wakes up to a brown elf instead of her ebony black one? Plus, their goes the excuse she has in not geting knocked up by him now. Since their kids won't be half drow.
-That said, Drizzt was not among those who transformed. The prologue and epilogue of The Orc King, which takes place in 1479 DR, depicts Drizzt clearly as he has always appeared.
I remember, from the Ascendancy of the Last, that the drow who reverted back to dark elves had to be of a particular bloodline of ancient Myeritar (sp?).
-Correct. Those who transformed needed to be of pure Miyeritari bloodline (as improbable as it is, that's the canon, so...). Q'Whatever was of House Melarn, and as we learned, House Melarn was (improbably) of pure Miyeritari linage.
So your saying Drizzt is unwilling?
So your saying Drizzt is unwilling?
-Drizzt was not of pure Miyeritari bloodline, so he was not a candidate to be transformed, to begin with. There was never a "choice". Upon the completion of the High Magic Ritual, all Drow who were of pure Miyeritari bloodline reverted back into Dark Elves.
-The entire novel series is rife with continuity errors, I'll mention. Like, for example, Drow were allowed into Arvandor, to begin with, so...
-Drizzt was not of pure Miyeritari bloodline, so he was not a candidate to be transformed, to begin with. There was never a "choice". Upon the completion of the High Magic Ritual, all Drow who were of pure Miyeritari bloodline reverted back into Dark Elves.
-The entire novel series is rife with continuity errors, I'll mention. Like, for example, Drow were allowed into Arvandor, to begin with, so...
There you go again, pointing out things that were supposed to be hush-hush!
Heh! ;)
I think it meant Drow before DD-day...
-Hmm...DD-day: De-Drow-Day?
-Hmm...DD-day: De-Drow-Day?
lol, the Dark Disaster...
No, its all Drow willing, after all Cavantina wasn't a descendant of that blood line.
-No, no it was not Drow willing. It happened to a select few, among them Eilistraeeans, and those of pure Miyeritari heritage (as improbable as it is).
-That said, if I am not mistaken, I also believe that, at the climax of Cavatina's torture at the hands of Wendonai, she came to the breakthrough that she could not believe anything the Demon was saying, and that this was what "liberated" her from his bondage.
No, its all Drow willing, after all Cavantina wasn't a descendant of that blood line. In fact, she had Wedonai's blood in her.
And it's not talking about demon blood, but his taint. Wendonai corrupted the dark elves, leading them to Lolth. So technically, Wendonai's corruption is in ALL the drow. Demonic taint.
Now if you said the spell only affects Elistree's faithful, I would belive it and accept it. But if I remeber correctly, it affected some of the Mages of the conlcave who are not of Elistree faith.
Now if you said the spell only affects Elistree's faithful, I would belive it and accept it. But if I remeber correctly, it affected some of the Mages of the conlcave who are not of Elistree faith.
-But, they are of pure Miyeritari blood, as the Master of Divinations alluded to, in mentioning his conversation with the Sharn, and going along with Q'Whatever's plan in the first place. As are Q'Whatever's apprentices. This, the novel says, is what "drew" him to them.
-But, they are of pure Miyeritari blood, as the Master of Divinations alluded to, in mentioning his conversation with the Sharn, and going along with Q'Whatever's plan in the first place. As are Q'Whatever's apprentices. This, the novel says, is what "drew" him to them.
Q'arlynd. ;)
Q'arlynd. ;)
-Q'Whatever. ;)
-He gets no respect from me. He shall forevermore be unnamed.
edit: as for drizzt, not certain either way, it could be that the end was not discussed before orc king was written.
as I said the series did not happen......
and i have Blacklisted Lisa Spelman's line of books....
I'm just gonna chop it up to Wizards not know what their doing. like so many companies... lol
Chop or chalk? ;) 'Cause either would be accurate... they certainly chopped things up.
It's like two white parents having a black child. There's "no way" it should happen, yet it does now and then. And, when it comes to personal choice with things, the odds are even greater. Drizzt was both born different and chose to be different from the rest of the drow.
but yeah.....
but where is he now, did he stay in claimport when the plague hit or did he head north?
or shardikai
but yeah.....
but where is he now, did he stay in claimport when the plague hit or did he head north?
You talking to me? If you are uh, Artemis headed back to calimport to see the midget assasins guild chick. He's going to turn into a dork like Drizzt and freak out when someone messes with his friend.
You talking to me? If you are uh, Artemis headed back to calimport to see the midget assasins guild chick. He's going to turn into a dork like Drizzt and freak out when someone messes with his friend.
Yeah, but he won't be as emo about it as Drizzt... Then again...
-Q'Whatever. ;)
I just call him Q :D Or Pharaun wannabe
So if you can say all this, can I claim Artemis as a Shade now?
I wonder what Entreri has to do with Drizzt being a dark elf or not?
I just call him Q :D
Now you mentioned it, there he killed even gods so easily, he must be the one, he is Q! An Q is also white, so maybe Q and Qwhatever are one and the same:
I wonder how the dark archer feels about all this dark elf crap.
-Shevarash is a hunter of Lolth, Vhaeraun, Selvetarm, Ghaunadaur, and their Drow followers. He has made peace with Eilistraee, and her faithful, and does not hunt them. Being as that, primarily, those that are Dark Elves once more are Eilistraeeans- or rather, followers of the Masked Lady- he'd bear them no ill will.
Now you mentioned it, there he killed even gods so easily, he must be the one, he is Q! An Q is also white, so maybe Q and Qwhatever are one and the same
Ah, but there are Q, and then there are Q. They are a race not just an individual.
And of course there is Q:
I remember, from the Ascendancy of the Last, that the drow who reverted back to dark elves had to be of a particular bloodline of ancient Myeritar (sp?). And the only drow who turned back had to be related to the spellcasters who were involved in the ritual, since they were all of a particular House when dark elves were still around.
So her sacrificw was for a smal group of dark elves....sigh...what a waste.
OR
When the spell was enacted by Eilistraee's sacrifice, it cleansed the Drow of Loth's evil and turned them into Dark Elves (not Green Elves).
Visually, as Nathvas put it, they'd look close enough to Drow to pass as them, but those in the know (and the Gods and "angels") could tell that they are instead Dark Elves. While some Dark Elves may have had their hair revert too, as in the Lady Penitent, many did not.
So, to answer the thread's title, "Drizzt no longer a Dark elf?", I'd say, NO, he's a Dark Elf, just no longer a Drow.
I think that owuld be very interresting
The spell is not exactly a redemption of the drow (whatever that would look like), but it severs their link to faerzress, something which actually was invoked by the first casting. Faerzress was pulling the dark elves - come drow beneath the surface, no matter whether they were good or evil or what have you. That was the aim of Q'arlynd's casting, he was not about to redeem the drow in the first place. What is said in the book (all thoughts uttered by the above-named, not real lore) is that the casting does only affect Miyeritari dark elves (evil and good ones?) and those who follow the dance (what about those who do not follow either Lolth and Eilistraee (i.e. Mielikki - like Drizzt?) => by default, they stay drow). Only later on - the two eladrin-servants of Arvandor who accompany Cavatina tell us who were actually "saved": all the willing. Which messes it all up even more.
And the problem of it all is that some of these hypothesis uttered above are true canon now, others half-true canon and a lot remains unanswered.
Which is actually something I bemoaned long and loud enough after LP I and LP II. To many open ends ...
And the FRCG does not follow up either ... and creates another conundrum with the House Melarn in honour of the Lady Penitent ... who was nothing but mental in LP III and hardly worth a second thought. But that's just me.
PS: Where might she have ended up, BTW?
Visually, as Nathvas put it, they'd look close enough to Drow to pass as them, but those in the know (and the Gods and "angels") could tell that they are instead Dark Elves. While some Dark Elves may have had their hair revert too, as in the Lady Penitent, many did not.
Nope, the all redeemed Drow/New Dark Elves have black hair and brown eyes, Drow stayed as they allways were, white haired with mostly red eyes. I think even a spiderkisser could see a difference between someone with white hair and the one with black hair. And normally Drow are more black than brown, thats how it they were described in the rulesbooks (don't know what it is in 4Ed), but Dark Elves were described as having brown skin (and brown is not black). So I think they can tell the difference between both, hair color makes them another species, eye color which no drow had, a lighter skin, that must be an alien in a drow city, regardless wich position his/her house had held before the spell of Q.
And of course there is Q:
But our FR Q do not build so nice cars. He travells with magical means.
Bel
Only later on - the two eladrin-servants of Arvandor who accompany Cavatina tell us who were actually "saved": all the willing.
Actually, Lashrael and Felarathael are solars in the service of Corellon, as Malkizid once was ;)
Yeah, but he won't be as emo about it as Drizzt... Then again...
He was getting pretty emo when it came to that flute and his past.
I wonder what Entreri has to do with Drizzt being a dark elf or not?
They happen to be within interaction with one another. Drow suppsobley not being a dark elf anymore, and Artemis not being a human anymore. Maybe they will walk right by each other without knowing it O.o
Also on a bigger outlook, Drow in general are affected, not just drizzt, which includes Jarlaxel. If all Drow are changed, then yes, so is Drizzt. The title should have be named: Drow not drow anymore? Or something like that/
Does this mean Drizzt can't use his glob of darkness anymore?
Don't forget, some artists DID portray Drow as having DARK brown skin already. Just consider this a retro-active skin-tone change. Or consider that Drow skin was more Obsidian than Ebony.
-That's simply because it's easier to illustrate a Drow being gray, purple, brown, or a few other colors than jet black. You'd lose all of the details, were the illustration jet black.
When the spell was enacted by Eilistraee's sacrifice, it cleansed the Drow of Loth's evil and turned them into Dark Elves (not Green Elves).
-As was stated, Dark Elves are Green Elves. They were retconned into being a specific branch of the Green Elves in AGHotR.
So, to answer the thread's title, "Drizzt no longer a Dark elf?", I'd say, NO, he's a Dark Elf, just no longer a Drow.
-No, Drizzt is most certainly still a Drow. He was not of Miyeritari blood, nor was he an Eilistraeean. The prologue and epilogue of The Orc King clearly demonstrate this.
Just out of curiosity, is there anywhere I can find a timeline for drow as a race? I mean one where the entire canon is laid out in a time-table or something.
I think that owuld be very interresting
-I am currently in the process of compiling a complete Elven chronology for Elves of Faerûn. It will have Aquatic Elven and "regular" Elven happenings as well, but the Dark Elves/Drow will be in it. Keep an eye out, as I'll be finishing it up sometime soon.
BTW ... dark elves never ever looked anywhere close to what LP III made of them. I cannot think of any reason but WotC orders. Dusky (which is not brown) skinned and pale (which is not black) hair, as of Cormanthyr. They look more like Morrowind dark elves (sic!) now than anything FR-ish.
I suspect that's because LP III had 4E elves in mind when it was being written. I reconcile the historical discrepancy by saying that Cormanthyr only described one possible appearance for dark elves. Just like moon elves can have a multitude of natural hair colors (black, blue, silver, or even gold in the case of the Llewyrr); I suggest that dark elves can sport multiple hair colors as well (brown, black or even white). This applies equally to skin color.
Just one word: Rashomon.
Bel
Ha! I think this feels even more confusing though.
BTW ... dark elves never ever looked anywhere close to what LP III made of them. I cannot think of any reason but WotC orders. Dusky (which is not brown) skinned and pale (which is not black) hair, as of Cormanthyr. They look more like Morrowind dark elves (sic!) now than anything FR-ish.
-I'll put it out there: I consider 'brown' in the category of 'dusky', along with a whole lot of other colors.
I suspect that's because LP III had 4E elves in mind when it was being written. I reconcile the historical discrepancy by saying that Cormanthyr only described one possible appearance for dark elves. Just like moon elves can have a multitude of natural hair colors (black, blue, silver, or even gold in the case of the Llewyrr); I suggest that dark elves can sport multiple hair colors as well (brown, black or even white). This applies equally to skin color.
Iak, I think it says somewhere in a supplament that drow skin tone range from jet to some darker shades of grey, I'll have to look it up, might even be in the oDotU
Would a change of skintone really spare them his anger?
Iak, I think it says somewhere in a supplament that drow skin tone range from jet to some darker shades of grey, I'll have to look it up, might even be in the oDotU
Nope
From Drow of Underdark (2nd ed)
Drow vary in shape, features, and hair color as greatly as humans do. The only
exception to this rule is their uniformly jet-black skin (the few exceptions tend to be bone-white albinos).
I'm searching though. The Albino option sounds cool though.
From Drow of Underdark (3rd edition)
All drow have black skin. This is not the dark hue common to some humans, but true black, the color of onyx or pure darkness. Skin tone varies only slightly from individual to individual, perhaps appearing a shade lighter on one, or faintly violet-tinged on another when viewed under very bright light; in any case, these distinctions are both subtle and rare.
This kind of explains that picture of Jarlaxle though... Violet tinged apparently = purple.
let me see if this is trumped by the nDotU?????
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Sort of, in the nDotU it says all drow have black skin, this is not te dark hue common to sime humans, but true black, the color of onyx or pure darkness. Skin tone varies only slightly from individual to individual, perhaps appearing a shade lighter on one, or faintly violet-tinged on another.
When I asked about the black archer earlier I really do not think hed spare the "dark elves" his wrath.
-Again, he only crusaded against specific Drow. Eilistraee's faithful, he had no qualms with. Being as that a large portion of the Dark Elves are Eilistraee's faithful, I don't see him having a problem with them.
-Again, he only crusaded against specific Drow. Eilistraee's faithful, he had no qualms with. Being as that a large portion of the Dark Elves are Eilistraee's faithful, I don't see him having a problem with them.
Nevermind the fact, that Corellon would have had Saverash's ass if he had land a hand on not only Eilistraee, but any of her faithful.
-That's simply because it's easier to illustrate a Drow being gray, purple, brown, or a few other colors than jet black. You'd lose all of the details, were the illustration jet black.
I am fully aware of that, after all, that's why they made the costume of Bat-Man (1930's-40's spelling) blue & grey in the comics, even though the creators (Bill Finger and Bob Kane) have repeatedly said it was black. (Also, art major, here.)
As was stated, Dark Elves are Green Elves. They were retconned into being a specific branch of the Green Elves in AGHotR.
That was the stupidest retcon ever, though. "Green Elves" were supposed to have skin "copperish in hue with tinctures of green. Their hair tends towards browns and blacks, with occasional blonds and copper-colored natives." (A Grand Tour of the Realms, p. 9)
Reverting to blond hair and brown skin I can understand, but verdigrised skin and black hair just doesn't fit. And it was frankly (uncharacteristically) irresponsible of Lisa Smedman to make such a wildly broad-reaching statement as she did, making every good-aligned Drow PC out there (of that particular bloodline, anyway) suddenly conform to such a tight and narrow physical appearance.
No, Drizzt is most certainly still a Drow. He was not of Miyeritari blood, nor was he an Eilistraeean. The prologue and epilogue of The Orc King clearly demonstrate this.
However, the terms "Drow" and "Dark Elf" are STILL interchangeable, to an extent.
(In other words, I don't care what you say or how much logical sense it may or may not make, I have my own opinion on this matter, and I'm bloody well sticking to it.)
Not here either
From Drow of Underdark (3rd edition)
This is not a valid source. At least not for the Realms.
It reminds me of a really badly written mystery novel.
You, the reader, have figured out that it couldnt be anyone in the story you've read about who might be guilty of the murder.
Low and behold, the author, realising they have painted themselves into a corner and needing to finish the book in a specific way, brings a new character in who is conveniently guilty of everything...and all this is done in the last three pages of the book.
Horrible writing justification. Shows terrible planning and bad plot logic.
Supposedly saving the 'Uniqueness' of Drizzt by writing these books was stupid. I dont care if Drizzt is unique. He doesnt play in my games.
My player gets that luxury of uniqueness when I am running my game, not a character in a book.
-I'll put it out there: I consider 'brown' in the category of 'dusky', along with a whole lot of other colors.
Please, do not hesitate to show me the culprit, the one who hit you with the bargepole.
Iak ... no hard feelings (well, not that many), but it was you who lore-turned the dark elves into green elves. Any source we have on the dark elves pre-Descent, whether Ilythiiri or not, describes them as in Cormanthyr. Neither was there a need to turn them as described in LP, nor was there any need to essentially eradicate a branch from the elven tree as it was depicted virtually from the first days of D&D. Just MHO, of course.
Please, do not hesitate to show me the culprit, the one who hit you with the bargepole.
-What, you don't consider brown to be one of the hues that can be described as 'dusky'?
Iak ... no hard feelings (well, not that many), but it was you who lore-turned the dark elves into green elves.
-Not that I agree with it (Which I don't. That information went out the door), but nothing ever specifically stated that Dark Elves were their own subrace or anything to begin with. So, that..."door" was always open. A bit silly, I know, but there were never any stats, all that kind of stuff.
I'm searching though. The Albino option sounds cool though.
There was somewhere a drow albino, right? Can't remember where, but I've read of this special things.Nevermind the fact, that Corellon would have had Saverash's ass if he had land a hand on not only Eilistraee, but any of her faithful.
Is he still around, or is he also a casualty of 4. Ed (like retconned away with the Seldarine, e.g. ever been a part of Silvanus, or something like that)?
-Drow of the Underdark, the 2e book.
Is he still around, or is he also a casualty of 4. Ed (like retconned away with the Seldarine, e.g. ever been a part of Silvanus, or something like that)?
-Shevarash is still around. His portfolio of 'vengeance' has been "extended" to be non-specific, however. In other words, he isn't seeking vengeance against Lolth and her Drow anymore, specifically. It's all-encompassing vengeance, now.
Shevarash is still around. His portfolio of 'vengeance' has been "extended" to be non-specific, however. In other words, he isn't seeking vengeance against Lolth and her Drow anymore, specifically. It's all-encompassing vengeance, now.
Blurb
Only vengeance, seems like he transformed a bit into Kiaransalee. :PBlurb
-His one sphere (I always forget that new term) is 'Vengeance', and it's not specific against the Drow, so...
And Drow of the Underdark 3e. There're called szarkai ;)
And Drow of the Underdark 3e. There're called szarkai ;)
:raincloud Now you mentioned it. Thanks, how could this drop out of my mind, I've wrote an article in a german wiki about this kind. If i remember right, it was also a szarkai who led this revolt of the undead in City of the Spider Queen.
:raincloud Now you mentioned it. Thanks, how could this drop out of my mind, I've wrote an article in a german wiki about this kind. If i remember right, it was also a szarkai who led this revolt of the undead in City of the Spider Queen.
Yep, Irae T'sarran. DotU mentions her, too.
Drizzt was not saved. I'm so sorry for this bad news people.
saved from what? Being whitewashed or dead in the new timeline? And from where did you got it?
saved from what? Being whitewashed or dead in the new timeline? And from where did you got it?
-Again, as I already stated in this thread, Drizzt appears as a normal Drow in the prologue and epilogue of The Orc King.
saved from what?
Ask the Masked Lady (Eilistraee in the latter half of the LP series)--she was the one who concerned herself with sacrifice and redemption. Redemption for only some, not all--those who weren't "saved" were deemed a necessary sacrifice.
Blurb
He stole it from Hoar, why do you think Hoar is stuck with "Revenge"?
Even if Retribution would have fit him* better... "Payback's a B!tch!"
*Hoar, not Saverash.
Ask the Masked Lady (Eilistraee in the latter half of the LP series)--she was the one who concerned herself with sacrifice and redemption. Redemption for only some, not all--those who weren't "saved" were deemed a necessary sacrifice.
Stupid...
Ask the Masked Lady (Eilistraee in the latter half of the LP series)--she was the one who concerned herself with sacrifice and redemption. Redemption for only some, not all--those who weren't "saved" were deemed a necessary sacrifice.
Please. don't follow LK's lead. Eilistraee was still Eilistraee in LP III, even though she was also called Masked Lady. It's not that Cyric was the Veiled Sun rather the Black Sun after killing Leira, was he? Nice conjecture of LK, but nothing more and hardly anything official. Which he would know, after re-reading the last few chapters of LP III when it is not just people "thinking" about her, but it is actually written about her. Not least in the epilogue.
Shevarash, a god of vengeance? He was as simple- and single-minded a deity as Vhaeraun beforehand and will surely not become something greater than that in 4E.
Please. don't follow LK's lead. Eilistraee was still Eilistraee in LP III, even though she was also called Masked Lady. It's not that Cyric was the Veiled Sun rather the Black Sun after killing Leira, was he? Nice conjecture of LK, but nothing more and hardly anything official. Which he would know, after re-reading the last few chapters of LP III when it is not just people "thinking" about her, but it is actually written about her. Not least in the epilogue.
-Eilistraee ceased to exist. Eilistraee became the Masked Lady.
-Eilistraee ceased to exist. Eilistraee became the Masked Lady.
In your humble opinion, I know.
In your humble opinion, I know.
And in the humble opinion of the official Wikipedia entry as well...
From Wikipedia: Eilistraee
In book 2, Storm of the Dead, Vhaeraun's clergy have been warily accepted into Eilistraee's faith, and the goddess now is known as the Masked Lady. A small faction of Vhaeraun's remaining clerics believe that, instead, Vhaeraun slew Eilistraee and is masquerading as her. A mixed force of Eilistraee's Protectors, Nightshadows and drow wizards go on a raid on the main temple of Kiaransalee, the drow death goddess. High magic is used to erase Kiaransalee's name from memory, causing the goddess' death from lack of worship. Qilué, uncharacteristically, orders the slaughter of the helpless former cultists.
And in the humble opinion of the official Wikipedia entry as well...
From Wikipedia: Eilistraee
Most likely written by Lord Karsus himself :D
Now really, a look at the last few pages of LP III will dump that idea out of the window, as everyone concerned, be they Cavatina, Halisstra, the elven heralds and even Lolth herself refers to and thinks of her as Eilistraee. And that, I'm afraid, is official lore. Furthermore, the GHotR also refers to her as Eilistraee after her consumption of Vhaeraun. It is all out there.
See, I have no problem if people have their own opinions on that - unless they fail not to sell it as official canon and truth.
Now really, a look at the last few pages of LP III will dump that idea out of the window, as everyone concerned, be they Cavatina, Halisstra, the elven heralds and even Lolth herself refers to and thinks of her as Eilistraee. And that, I'm afraid, is official lore. Furthermore, the GHotR also refers to her as Eilistraee after her consumption of Vhaeraun. It is all out there.
Eilistraee's clergy (all of them) also saw and understood that she had changed, behaviorally and not just cosmetically (the mask itself). One noticable "shock" of course, was the allowance of males, former Vhaeraunites, in her formerly female-only ceremonies. A good portion of the book was devoted to the changes not only for her clergy but for the former Vhaeraunites, and the latter cases were dramatic (though not so totally foreign to the male priests that they stopped worship entirely). The blend was in some cases subtle, but in some cases quite jarring. Eilistraee was herself, but as the Masked Lady she was also quite clearly acting in ways that she had not before. It wasn't just a simple consumption of Vhaeraun, and that was definitely very interesting. They all thought of her as Eilistraee, because that was her name, but they all also thought of her as the Masked Lady. And that's also official lore.
If people cite the slaughter of the Kiaransaleens ... that was actually Qilué speaking and she was tainted by the Crescent Sword / Wendonai. Something which becomes pretty clear in LP III. Cannot think of any other strange behaviour by the goddess.
In what way did Eilistraee change her behaviour?
If people cite the slaughter of the Kiaransaleens ... that was actually Qilué speaking and she was tainted by the Crescent Sword / Wendonai. Something which becomes pretty clear in LP III. Cannot think of any other strange behaviour by the goddess.
It's not like Eilistraee changed such that her behavior was radically different (i.e., she didn't commit any openly evil acts), but she was definitely changed in obvious ways. Her ceremonies were opened (dramatic in a female-oriented drow religion), she endorsed the slaying of the Kiriansaleeans (harsher and arguably merciless, which she had not been before), and Eilistraee herself even felt quite different "behind the mask". These were not just Qilué's feelings and decisions. These changes reflect, imo, an alignment shift that went from CG to CN, based on my read of the events in the book. She was definitely "colored" after her absorption of Vhaeraun, and as such she wasn't "exactly" the same goddess.
Yes, Qilué's blood was tainted by Wendonai, but it was also very clear that she was using her gifts as a Chosen to "hold off" the tainting of her soul. Qilué wasn't ever making decisions for the faith on her own without the influence and input of Eilistraee, including her final decision. Had she been totally under Wendonai's influence, Qilué would not have just changed her mood but she would have acted in ways wholly supportive of Wendonai (and contrary to her patron).
It's not like Eilistraee changed such that her behavior was radically different (i.e., she didn't commit any openly evil acts), but she was definitely changed in obvious ways.
That would be true (IMHO) if we would know how she normally behaved. For much of what we actually know of her is conjecture of the behaviour of the members of her clergy than anything done by herself - those few lines in Evermeet aside.
Her ceremonies were opened (dramatic in a female-oriented drow religion),
Purely pragmatic. The numbers of her clergy were quite low, the influx of the Vhaeraunites did swell her ranks somewhat (we never learned of the fate of the Masked Traitor females - who suddenly cast all their "Lolthite" spells underlayed with moonfire). IMHO, also simply a necessity, a tool used by the authoress to let the fall of the Promenade happen that bit quicker. The male influx that is - all the dissidents in their ranks.
she endorsed the slaying of the Kiriansaleeans (harsher and arguably merciless, which she had not been before),
No, that was simply Qilué's command and I point out my reason why I do not think that it wasn't Eilistraee's below.
... and Eilistraee herself even felt quite different "behind the mask".
Well, after all, it was the only clothing she wore bar her hair, so she was bound to feel different. ;) As I said above, we do not know much about Eilistraee's true behaviour beforehand, how can we actually judge her's now?.
These were not just Qilué's feelings and decisions. These changes reflect, imo, an alignment shift that went from CG to CN, based on my read of the events in the book. She was definitely "colored" after her absorption of Vhaeraun, and as such she wasn't "exactly" the same goddess.
Maybe so. We do need to keep in mind that the common picture of Eilistraee is more or less a conjecture of their clergy's behaviour. And ask anyone who hasn't got that great an insight and they will tell you: Eilistraeens are the drow versions of Ilmaterians, who tend to run about and dance naked in the moonlit glades. Few ever take the time to double check her actual dogma, the rituals and all that. (Same with Ilmater or Loviatar, BTW.) Anyway, even if she was "tainted" by the influx of Vhaeraun's evil, we can hardly say she became a different or new goddess - for the same would apply to Cyric, Shar, Selvetarm and the like. They may have changed somewhat, but remained who they were. IMHO, Eilistraee and her worshippers are more CN (and not the lunatic description of AD&D) than anything other anyways.
Yes, Qilué's blood was tainted by Wendonai, but it was also very clear that she was using her gifts as a Chosen to "hold off" the tainting of her soul. Qilué wasn't ever making decisions for the faith on her own without the influence and input of Eilistraee, including her final decision. Had she been totally under Wendonai's influence, Qilué would not have just changed her mood but she would have acted in ways wholly supportive of Wendonai (and contrary to her patron).
I pointed at certain events before. Remind yourself of Qiluè's killing of the elven druid, something she did unwittingly and utterly Wendonai-driven. Only afterwards she decided to rid herself of the blade and the balor for good.
It would thus only have needed a short push by the demon to let her order Cavatina to slaughter the Kiaransaleens, who were - at least as described in the novel, not according to the lore - as mad as the lunatics of Ghaunadaur in LP III - whom she was willingly leading into their doom too (even though Wendonai and the hardcore-Vhaeraunians had other ideas). It was indeed a bit baffling to see Eilistraee being powerless to stop her male followers working against her Chosen ... which, on hindsight, may point at both, the still low power she had on her kin or the role the divine essence of Vhaeraun played, and, on the other hand, the power Qilué had on the whole clergy no matter what Eilistraee dictated.
Alas, that was a short yet terrible episode and who knows what will happen in days to come..
In your humble opinion, I know.
-Which, as we all know, is really all that matters.
-Which, as we all know, is really all that matters.
Speak for yourself, speak for yourself ... :evillaugh
Speak for yourself, speak for yourself ... :evillaugh
-Remember, we deduced in another thread that I am Ao.
-Remember, we deduced in another thread that I am Ao.
"We" surely did not. Someone else and you, maybe. Which speaks for the wood and reach of that bargepole.
Still, last time I heard anything about him/her/it, Ao was not having his/hers/its head lying about in a swamp.
Ahem ... staying on topic, "brown" is not something I would think of when speaking of "dusky". Brown is just one colour with many shades or hues.
Shevarash, a god of vengeance? He was as simple- and single-minded a deity as Vhaeraun beforehand and will surely not become something greater than that in 4E.
could be, lets not forget that Orcus came back in 3.5 a sight more powerful than he was in 2e. And with a heafty backstory to support his power increase.
-Q'Whatever. ;)
-He gets no respect from me. He shall forevermore be unnamed.
Why is that? I thought he was a pretty well written character.
Why is that? I thought he was a pretty well written character.
I can not say why LK don't likes him. But for me he is too overpowered. I mean it's like a hero about whom you know before something happens that he allways wins. So it started to be a little boring. He was also to, hm, much the hero of the day. He helped to kill gods, no he actually killed one so easy that I am still confused how he could do it so easily and why the hack no one else with much more knowledge about High magic did it before? I mean erase the knowledge of god x out of the mind of a allknowing god and other gods, than every mortal in the whole universe, huh? Sorry, if six guys who never really learned how to use High magic could do it, than the elves of ancient times would have done such things all the day with every bad god, they met. And then, he killed Kiaransalee, OK, but why stop there and not doing the same with good old Lolth? I mean, that would save his complete species and he is the everlasting hero of the elves. Such a hero would be really powerfull and get all the fame and after all that's what he wished most.
Ahem ... staying on topic, "brown" is not something I would think of when speaking of "dusky". Brown is just one colour with many shades or hues.
-What colors do you think of, when one says 'dusky'. Again, I think of shades of brown, gray, tan, olive, black, purple, dark green, red, dark yellow, orange. There's a wide variety of colors and hues that can be considered "dusky".
Why is that? I thought he was a pretty well written character.
-I explain why in my book review thread for Ascendancy of the Last.
-What colors do you think of, when one says 'dusky'. Again, I think of shades of brown, gray, tan, olive, black, purple, dark green, red, dark yellow, orange. There's a wide variety of colors and hues that can be considered "dusky".
Dusky ain't a colour itself, more a description of a state (i.e. coming from dusk, where the colours turn to "grey" as they say). Comes, so it seems, from Middle English "dosk" - dark, dim; probably linked to an earlier Anglo-Saxon "deorc" - dark. Dictionaries usually give you: "darkish", "shadowy". Sometimes also old fashion literary and/or taboo derogative: having dark skin. But since you ask me, I think of "dusky" as dark grey, shady grey or the like, i.e. e.g. the skin colour of a half-drow.
-Does "having dark skin", as per Dictionary.com make it any better for you? I'm not trying to argue, it's just that I've never met anyone who didn't think brown was 'dusky'. A good friend of mine is Indian, and she considers herself "dusky skinned". Her skin is medium brown...A little lighter than the brown on the cover of the PHB.
No. Since "dusky skinned with pale hair" IMHO is not "brown skinned with black hair". That's what "4E FR dark elves" will by default look like, and that's just woeful.
-You're just being contrary. Various dictionaries, as cited, give 'dusky' the definition of 'dark skinned'. Brown, as a skin tone, is dark, as are many other tones. Thus, brown skin fits into the mold of 'dusky'.
Nope. (BTW, you cited just one dictionary.) Dusky meant "dark skinned", but that is a more or less a taboo. When Cormanthyr writes "dusky skin and pale hair" it does not mean "brown" - and solely "brown". That is what we will have to put up with from now on (until it is changed), since all drow-come-dark elves in LP III turn "brown", not "dusky". As I said, dusky ain't a colour in itself - but it gives a clear impression. People (like you) may argue what this impression could be like and I say that IMHO it ain't solely "brown". For this doesn't even make the cut for the taboo real world denomination, as "dusky" can refer to the rather fair-skinned chaps from e.g. the shores of the Mediterranean Sea down to the heart of Kongo or the nigh "jet-black" Zulu warriors of Southern Africa. If anything, handing out a single colour wasn't that wise a decision.
Edit: It might be noteworthy that German translations of "dusky" almost always refer to the state of "dusk" rather than any sort of colour. As in: dark, shadowy, dim and the like.
Nope. (BTW, you cited just one dictionary.) Dusky meant "dark skinned", but that is a more or less a taboo. When Cormanthyr writes "dusky skin and pale hair" it does not mean "brown" - and solely "brown". That is what we will have to put up with from now on (until it is changed), since all drow-come-dark elves in LP III turn "brown", not "dusky". As I said, dusky ain't a colour in itself - but it gives a clear impression. People (like you) may argue what this impression could be like and I say that IMHO it ain't solely "brown". For this doesn't even make the cut for the taboo real world denomination, as "dusky" can refer to the rather fair-skinned chaps from e.g. the shores of the Mediterranean Sea down to the heart of Kongo or the nigh "jet-black" Zulu warriors of Southern Africa. If anything, handing out a single colour wasn't that wise a decision.
Edit: It might be noteworthy that German translations of "dusky" almost always refer to the state of "dusk" rather than any sort of colour. As in: dark, shadowy, dim and the like.
Good grief.
Let's call them "chocolate" elves, then... or "mocha".
Nope. (BTW, you cited just one dictionary.)
-Dictionary.com cites the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, and WordNet 3.0 as associating the word 'Dusky' with dark skin tones, of which the color 'Brown' is a dark skin tone. So, that's three sources. Dictionaries.
Dusky meant "dark skinned", but that is a more or less a taboo.
-Not so much a taboo as much a description of the color. Were it a taboo phrase, it wouldn't be used so laxly.
When Cormanthyr writes "dusky skin and pale hair" it does not mean "brown" - and solely "brown".
-How do you know? While I tend to agree, on this matter, we don't know implicitly what the designers had in mind. Brown is a hue that is associated with the phrase "dusky skin".
That is what we will have to put up with from now on (until it is changed), since all drow-come-dark elves in LP III turn "brown", not "dusky".
-Brown is a hue that is associated with the phrase "dusky skin".
As I said, dusky ain't a colour in itself - but it gives a clear impression.
-No, it isn't a color in and of itself. But, it describes a color, and one such color, brown, is associated with the phrase "dusky skin".
People (like you) may argue what this impression could be like and I say that IMHO it ain't solely "brown".
-No, it isn't solely brown. But, brown is a hue that is associated with the phrase "dusky skin".
For this doesn't even make the cut for the taboo real world denomination, as "dusky" can refer to the rather fair-skinned chaps from e.g. the shores of the Mediterranean Sea down to the heart of Kongo or the nigh "jet-black" Zulu warriors of Southern Africa.
-Dusky does not describe the "jet-black Zulu warriors of Southern Africa". Then, they're black. Dusky, when describing a skin tone, is the transition between what would be considered white, and black, but not including white or black.
If anything, handing out a single colour wasn't that wise a decision.
-We don't necessarily know if all Dark Elves are a single color. We know the skin tones of a select few, but we don't know if some are darker than others, if some are lighter than others, and so on. Just like in the real world, where black is a term that ranges the gamut from extremely dark, to lighter shades of brown.
Especially those priestesses of Araushnee.
Blackstaff Tower p.4
Vajra was a dusky-skinned Tethyrian, not a native Waterdhavian
Curious eh?
Now that was fun to read. How many folk can respond to 8 quotes with the same answer. Wait for it....and be correct. I get the felling Zanan just doesn't have much love for "Brown". Not that there has ever been a thing as "solely brown". Brown isn't even a color. Its a hue. A, lol, dusky blend of green,red, gray(also not a color), and often a tad of yellow. The point is that the Dark Elven skin wasn't the pale blue-white, tanned golden-ivory, or ruddy-olive of the other tribes who came to Faerun. Bet they are still sexy as hell though. ;)
Well, that ain't the case, as I said above. I said that I don't like a fairly loose description (dusky) being made definite by using a single colour (we all know that technically brown ain't a colour ... but we don't speak of technical finesse here, but common appearance and understanding), i.e. brown. For if I say brown, everyone has got an image in his / her head. That ain't the case with "dusky" though.
LK ... I am a bit surprised about your appologist strategy here? Are you Lisa or Brian in disguise? Maybe you just like to debate out of debate's fun? Fair enough. IMHO "brown" ain't what "dusky" meant in the first place, if you and others differ in opinion, fair enough.
Well, that ain't the case, as I said above. I said that I don't like a fairly loose description (dusky) being made definite by using a single colour (we all know that technically brown ain't a colour ... but we don't speak of technical finesse here, but common appearance and understanding), i.e. brown. For if I say brown, everyone has got an image in his / her head. That ain't the case with "dusky" though.
LK ... I am a bit surprised about your appologist strategy here? Are you Lisa or Brian in disguise? Maybe you just like to debate out of debate's fun? Fair enough. IMHO "brown" ain't what "dusky" meant in the first place, if you and others differ in opinion, fair enough.
Winning the argument makes him an apologist?
And... brown isn't a color? Really?
Sherwin Williams Paints has 28 different shades of brown, all with "brown" in the color title.
Winning the argument makes him an apologist?
And... brown isn't a color? Really?
Sherwin Williams Paints has 28 different shades of brown, all with "brown" in the color title.
You missed my point, I gather. He takes up an apologist position for LP III as it turns "dusky" of previous sources to "brown". He simply goes on arguing that "brown" is appropriate for "dusky", which is fair. Does it make him winning this argument? Hardly likely. Do you or anyone on here thinks primarily of a brown-skinned people if you/s-/he thinks of the dark elves? THAT was the point here. That was the bone of contention when LP III says that all drow in that book turned into brown-skinned black-haired elves with no darkvision and no spell-like abilities. The debate about the dusky-ness of brown will not prove him right or wrong here, as that was never an argument. Writing "new" lore is. Same with Brian's "dark elves being green elves" stuff.
"Brown isn't a colour" was not my argument, as can be seen above. Technically (for those deeply involved with painting theories) it apparently is not. I for one do not exactly care.
Sherwin ... is he/she anything one should know about? (A rhethorical question.)
You missed my point, I gather. He takes up an apologist position for LP III as it turns "dusky" of previous sources to "brown". He simply goes on arguing that "brown" is appropriate for "dusky", which is fair. Does it make him winning this argument? Hardly likely. Do you or anyone on here thinks primarily of a brown-skinned people if you/s-/he thinks of the dark elves? THAT was the point here. That was the bone of contention when LP III says that all drow in that book turned into brown-skinned black-haired elves with no darkvision and no spell-like abilities. The debate about the dusky-ness of brown will not prove him right or wrong here, as that was never an argument. Writing "new" lore is. Same with Brian's "dark elves being green elves" stuff.
"Brown isn't a colour" was not my argument, as can be seen above. Technically (for those deeply involved with painting theories) it apparently is not. I for one do not exactly care.
Sherwin ... is he/she anything one should know about? (A rhethorical question.)
But since you ask me, I think of "dusky" as dark grey, shady grey or the like, i.e. e.g. the skin colour of a half-drow.
Zanan, I just provided you a quote from the man himself (Steven E. Schend, author of Cormanthyr, the source you hold out as definitive) showing you that he uses the term "dusky" to describe both the pre-descent dark elves and modern-day Tethyrians.
So unless you telling me that Tethyrians have dark grey skin, I think it's time for you to concede the point.
To Steven at least, dusky = brown (or any other real world dark skintone found on Earth).
LK ... I am a bit surprised about your appologist strategy here?
-Yeah, I'm still looking for that.
Are you Lisa or Brian in disguise?
-Actually, Brian and Lisa Smedman are LK in disguise.
Maybe you just like to debate out of debate's fun?
-Yes, yes I do, if you've never realized that. I think just about anyone here can attest to that. :P
IMHO "brown" ain't what "dusky" meant in the first place, if you and others differ in opinion, fair enough.
-The crux of the matter is that we don't know what was meant in the first place. As Brian mentioned, Steve Schend used the same exact term to describe the people of Tethyr, who, as per RoF, and other Forgotten Realms sources, have brownish-copper skin tones, as people from the Mediterranean do. Thus, being as that Steve Schend was the author of the term in Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, why would he use the same term, but with two different meanings?
Not going to argue about the meaning of "dusky", but to me, the original dark elves probably had greyish skin (and white hair). Doesn't mean none of them were brown, though--I just never saw them that way.
That's more or less what I was saying from the word "go". Then people start trying to convince me that "brown" is actually also "dusky" - which there no argument about either. The argument is whether "dusky" when referred to "dark elves" means "brown" and - at least in LP III - only "brown". Which I doubt.
Iakhovas
To Steven at least, dusky = brown (or any other real world dark skintone found on Earth).
&
Lord_Karsus
Thus, being as that Steve Schend was the author of the term in Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, why would he use the same term, but with two different meanings?
I'm not Steven, but if I were him, I'd say: To me, dusky = any real world dark skintone found on Earth, including brown. Which would be more appropriate. There was a reason why I pointed towards the different skin "colours" of the people in Africa. They are all more or less "dusky skinned", but some, like the Zulu are jet-black, while others are not. And I for one would refrain from saying a Zulu's skin colour is brown as dusky = brown. On hindsight, it should have been clear enough in the first place.
BTW, most of the wild elves of Faerûn are probably also dusky skinned, dark brown and the like. Likewise the copper (tinged with brown and green) skinned wood elves. As of Races of Faerûn. But maybe you and Lisa conspired, after TGHoF turned the dark elves into green elves. T'was but a short step from one book retconning lore to hardwrite it in LP III. ... uh well ... maybe that bit of paranoia is too far fetched? (I'm calling Scully & Mulder while writing.)
Anyway, I'm not here to convince someone or being convinced. If people think that brown is the correct colour for a pre-Descent dark elf, or rather drow-come-dark elf, fair enough. Sadly, two books have more or less cast that into stone.
If people try telling me, brown = dusky and vice versa, I start wondering though ... since on the very same basis I could argue (to no end) that dark grey is dusky, and black is dusky, royal blue is dusky ... you name it. Nothing would be proven that way and no-one is right or wrong. Hence, nothing to concede.
Having had a couple of minutes on my hand last night, I quick-scanned Evermeet as the only source actually writing on the pre-Descent dark elves. Ka'Narlist - the Ilythiiri - is actually described as having a skin like the goddess Eilistraee, who, somewhat earlier, is said to have had skin of the colour of a starless night (obviously, not "brown"). Thus, if anything, one could (as observed earlier in the thread) "claim" that while all are "dusky skinned", some pre-Descent dark elves were "brown", while others were of a more black or greyi-sh hue. Which I tried to reiterate with my Africa remark, saying that "dusky" ain't just "brown".
- Thus, being as that Steve Schend was the author of the term in Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, why would he use the same term, but with two different meanings?
Because the word "dusky" has more than one meaning. In the real world, "dusky skin" does refer to a dark brown complexion, but the real world has no strangely colored elves in it, either.
Again, I'm not taking sides, just throwing that out there.
One option would be to ask Steve Schend himself about this (on Candlekeep.com).Because the word "dusky" has more than one meaning. In the real world, "dusky skin" does refer to a dark brown complexion, but the real world has no strangely colored elves in it, either.
-Right, but again, being as that brown is dusky, there's no problem with dusky-skinned Dark Elves being brown.
Which I tried to reiterate with my Africa remark, saying that "dusky" ain't just "brown".
-Brown, however, is dusky.
-Right, but again, being as that brown is dusky, there's no problem with dusky-skinned Dark Elves being brown.
Like this...
Like this...
Funny how back in AD&D all the book cover Drow women were, but all of the Drow men look like not only are they older then time it's self, but have suffered four, count 'em, FOUR, stokes... At least!
Like this...
-Well, those are Drow, not Dark Elves. But, yes, that's more or less how I always envisioned Dark Elves, that color.
-Brown, however, is dusky.
Is there a reason why you quote me?
Is there a reason why you quote me?
-You state, "dusky" ain't just "brown". Dusky is brown, among other possible things.
I miss Eilistraee.
Future authors may as well. By killing her off, they eliminated the possibility of telling 4E-related stories that involve her or her faith. Strange business decision for such a popular character/goddess.
The time she will be openly praised on the streets of some drow cities could have occured if certain influential Matron Mothers where subject to the change. Controversial but not unthinkable.
Future authors may as well. By killing her off, they eliminated the possibility of telling 4E-related stories that involve her or her faith.
-Not necessarily, as there always exists the possibility of "flashbacks" and stuff. Paul Kemp, however, has mentioned that the WotC people who are in charge of novels (I am thinking this is Phil Athans) was very hesitant to have any of the newer novels set in the past, so, maybe not...
-Not necessarily, as there always exists the possibility of "flashbacks" and stuff. Paul Kemp, however, has mentioned that the WotC people who are in charge of novels (I am thinking this is Phil Athans) was very hesitant to have any of the newer novels set in the past, so, maybe not...
Imagine, though, the marketing value of a novel showing how the priestesses of Eilistraee had changed and grown, and the new challenges and enemies that they could've had in 1479+, if they hadn't killed her off. I think a novel like that would've sold like hotcakes. Just saying that it seems like a really bad decision, marketing-wise.
-Like I always say, I don't think that Eilistraee is a popular deity. Rather, she has a "dedicated" minority following. If she was THAT popular, she would have "bled into" Core D&D at some point between 2e and now, 4e.
Maybe... but she wasn't featured as much then as she was recently.
Maybe... but she wasn't featured as much then as she was recently.
-Very true.
-Like I always say, I don't think that Eilistraee is a popular deity. Rather, she has a "dedicated" minority following. If she was THAT popular, she would have "bled into" Core D&D at some point between 2e and now, 4e.
On the other hand, Helm Mystra and Tyr were popular, and they still put their heads under the axe, right? So, you never know for sure.
Imagine, though, the marketing value of a novel showing how the priestesses of Eilistraee had changed and grown, and the new challenges and enemies that they could've had in 1479+, if they hadn't killed her off. I think a novel like that would've sold like hotcakes. Just saying that it seems like a really bad decision, marketing-wise.
Actually, my kinky poupée, I believe the "good drow" movement created by Drizzt resulted in Eilistraee's appearance and purpose in the first place.
Now that the distinction of dark elf and drow are defined, there is no longer a need for her (Super Drizzt aside, that is).
Actually, my kinky poupée, I believe the "good drow" movement created by Drizzt resulted in Eilistraee's appearance and purpose in the first place.
Now that the distinction of dark elf and drow are defined, there is no longer a need for her (Super Drizzt aside, that is).
Hogwash, I say! There are tons more drow that need to be redeemed, and certainly not all of these new brown elves will be goodie-goodies; they need love and hope too!
(Incidentally, if you ever want to test your personal measurement of "this is too creepy to exist in the real world"... go visit Disneyland Paris, France's 'La Maison de Poupées' ride... I guarantee shock, horror, and at least one white-knuckler screaming nightmare; in fact, just youtube it...).
Hogwash, I say! There are tons more drow that need to be redeemed, and certainly not all of these new brown elves will be goodie-goodies; they need love and hope too!
(Incidentally, if you ever want to test your personal measurement of "this is too creepy to exist in the real world"... go visit Disneyland Paris, France's 'La Maison de Poupées' ride... I guarantee shock, horror, and at least one white-knuckler screaming nightmare; in fact, just youtube it...).
And I blame your comment on this very ride. I've never before seen so many sadistic Chucky Dolls in one place.
I just know that if I could understand French properly, I would be hearing, "Wanna be my friend?"
Sick!
Sick!
And I blame your comment on this very ride. I've never before seen so many sadistic Chucky Dolls in one place.
I just know that if I could understand French properly, I would be hearing, "Wanna be my friend?"
Sick! Sick!
Yeah, but... I'm totally right about the sheer creepiness, yes? **shudder**
I did warn you, after all!
Yeah, but... I'm totally right about the sheer creepiness, yes? **shudder**
I did warn you, after all!
With the intent on making me take the virtual ride!!!
Don't make me b*tch at you in bad French!
With the intent on making me take the virtual ride!!!
Don't make me b*tch at you in bad French!
Revenons à nos moutons.
I think Eilistraee would be a very interesting goddess for 1479+ Realms.
Her faithfull clergy should have risen and gained influence, especially among the newly redeemed dark elves. Their martyr should have been included in her clergies songs andtaken to the surface with newfound faith.
The time she will be openly praised on the streets of some drow cities could have occured if certain influential Matron Mothers where subject to the change. Controversial but not unthinkable.
The 4E drow have (as it looks, IMHO) been reverted in culture, society, and religion to oldest and simplest depictions of them, bloodthirsty monsters slavering under their deity. The players guide gives them as a character race, but one that is simply another sort of playable race without much distinction (skin colour and the like aside). I could not help but ... well ... when reading the characters section of drow adventurers, all three of them some sort of dissenters, one even a devout follower of Kelemvor of all people. My major issue of the PG entry is that it simply ignores the view of the outside world (then again, that's the same with tieflings). As if it would be oh-so natural to have drow adventurers running about and people just take that in their stride. Not even a hint that the DM should present a bit of trouble to the drow walking about on the surface.
But regarding Eilistraee, it is obviously quite striking that on the one hand we have Lathander chopped and an old deity being brought back, while when the High Moor mythal city - a former Eilistraee stronghold - is being brought back, her worship is being left unmentioned and she herself is dumped. When you actually would expect that all those turned-back-into-normal-creatures sharn would revive or add to the Dark Maiden's following ...
Are there any description of those new surface realms where "cosmopolitan" drow reside? Seems they are not blinded by the daylight anymore and can even have cordial business relationships with the surfacers...
And the return of the City of Hope, Rhymanthiin, feels so empty after the pruning of the gods, especially Mystra and Eilistraee.
...while when the High Moor mythal city - a former Eilistraee stronghold...
Wait, could you please explain this to me?
when the High Moor mythal city - a former Eilistraee stronghold - is being brought back, her worship is being left unmentioned
By my research Zanan, the ancient Library City of Miyeritar (Faer'tel'miir, now restored as Rhymanthiin) was never an Eilistraee stronghold and it certainly never had a mythal. I think you may be making an assumption that most pre-descent dark elves of good heart worshiped Eilistraee, which simply isn't true.
I think you may be making an assumption that most pre-descent dark elves of good heart worshiped Eilistraee, which simply isn't true.
-In Evermeet: Island of the Elves, Eilistraee says that the minority of the Dark Elf population worships her, most of them swearing fealty to Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur. Now, while she was talking specifically about pre-Sundering Ilythiir, the only major change post-Sundering was the increasing foothold that Lolth had in their society. Which would still leave Eilistraee in the minority.
-In Evermeet: Island of the Elves, Eilistraee says that the minority of the Dark Elf population worships her, most of them swearing fealty to Vhaeraun and Ghaunadaur. Now, while she was talking specifically about pre-Sundering Ilythiir, the only major change post-Sundering was the increasing foothold that Lolth had in their society. Which would still leave Eilistraee in the minority.
I personally think that the dark elves of Miyeritar were mostly Seldarine worshippers.
I personally think that the dark elves of Miyeritar were mostly Seldarine worshippers.
-Like every population, the entire race doesn't worship XYZ 100%. There's always going to be those who worship ABC, DEF, and GHI...
But the worshippers of those deities (Vhaeraun and so on) were clearly in the minority imo.
-In this particular city, perhaps. In all of Ilythiir, no. Not initially, anyway, before Lolth discovered Realmspace, and slowly began the process of inserting herself into Ilythiiri society. Before Lolth became the patroness of the Ilythiiri majority, Vhaeraun was worshiped by the common populace, Ghaunadaur by the minority in power, and Eilistraee by a minority smaller, still. According to what can be taken by face value in E:IoE, anyway.
By my research Zanan, the ancient Library City of Miyeritar (Faer'tel'miir, now restored as Rhymanthiin) was never an Eilistraee stronghold and it certainly never had a mythal. I think you may be making an assumption that most pre-descent dark elves of good heart worshiped Eilistraee, which simply isn't true.
I make no assumptions, at least with regard to good pre-Descent dark elves. I simply remembered a line of Demihuman Deities (p. 16) saying ...
Eilistraee - Major Centers of Worship:
Before the elven Crown Wars, Eilistraee's faith was strong in Miyeritar, and she had small numbers of faithful in Ilythiir and the other elven realms of the time. The Dark Disaster, unleashed during the Third Crown War, transformed Miyeritar into the blasted wasteland now known as the High Moor and dealt a devastating blow to the ranks of the Dark Maiden's followers.
... and hence assumed that this place was one where Eilistraee was worshipped (and in comparatively large numbers). A few bits of info can also be gleaned from Blackstaff, though the latter only said that the sharn who once were dark elves did not voluntarily transform back, due to fearing that "Corellon's Curse" may still hit them. So I will grant that I might have erred with regard to the Library City having a mythal. Whether it was "a stronghold" of her faith ... well, that's everyone's guess, but it is more likely that it was one of her faith's "strongholds" - in comparrison to other places at the time.
Like this...
... on a sidenote: have you ever tried to paint someone whose skin-colour is something between jet- and obsidian-black ... and it does not end up as a dark blob on the canvas?
-In this particular city, perhaps. In all of Ilythiir, no. Not initially, anyway, before Lolth discovered Realmspace, and slowly began the process of inserting herself into Ilythiiri society. Before Lolth became the patroness of the Ilythiiri majority, Vhaeraun was worshiped by the common populace, Ghaunadaur by the minority in power, and Eilistraee by a minority smaller, still. According to what can be taken by face value in E:IoE, anyway.
I guess I should have added 'At least in Miyeritar'. ;)
-Not that I agree with it (Which I don't. That information went out the door), but nothing ever specifically stated that Dark Elves were their own subrace or anything to begin with. So, that..."door" was always open. A bit silly, I know, but there were never any stats, all that kind of stuff.
as I recall, Evermeet: Island of the Elves did say that Araunshnae (sp?) was given dominion over those elves that shared her appearance. It also, again as I recall, describe Araunshnae and Eilistraee (and possibly Vhaerun) as looking like drow, pre-betrayal. This would seem to indicate a distinct race separate from the green elves.
[edit]Also, I'm working on writing a campaign that involves the resurrection of Eilistraee and possibly the weakening of Shar into a Goddess rather than a Greater Goddess (turnabout for Selune being an Intermediate Deity in 3e)
I guess I should have added 'At least in Miyeritar'. ;)
-Yeah, after the fact, I realized I was talking about the race as a whole. :P
as I recall, Evermeet: Island of the Elves did say that Araunshnae (sp?) was given dominion over those elves that shared her appearance. It also, again as I recall, describe Araunshnae and Eilistraee (and possibly Vhaerun) as looking like drow, pre-betrayal. This would seem to indicate a distinct race separate from the green elves.
-Looking through the lens that they are simply a subset of the Green Elves, there is nothing in that passage that contradicts it/disproves it, however.
-Yeah, after the fact, I realized I was talking about the race as a whole. :P
-Looking through the lens that they are simply a subset of the Green Elves, there is nothing in that passage that contradicts it/disproves it, however.
-Don't worry about it. ;)
-Looking through the lens that they are simply a subset of the Green Elves, there is nothing in that passage that contradicts it/disproves it, however.
it would indicate that even "redeemed" dark elves would retain the obsidian skin and white hair of the draherro
it would indicate that even "redeemed" dark elves would retain the obsidian skin and white hair of the draherro
-Their dusky skin.
Are all of the surface drow dark elves instead of drow, or does this apply only to the next generation? Drow who were born in the underdark and left are drow. The children of those drow, born on the surface and outside of the influence of Lolth are dark elves?
Are all of the surface drow dark elves instead of drow, or does this apply only to the next generation? Drow who were born in the underdark and left are drow. The children of those drow, born on the surface and outside of the influence of Lolth are dark elves?
-As has been mentioned in this thread, any Drow who were of pure Miyeritari heritage, or were faithful of Eilistraee reverted to their original Dark Elven forms in 1378 DR.
-Looking through the lens that they are simply a subset of the Green Elves, there is nothing in that passage that contradicts it/disproves it, however.
Oh, that bit in the novel ain't the bone of contention, of course, the passages of Cormanthyr are ... (where about 90% of the early history of the Grand History actually comes from (and word by word):
The First Flowering
By the Time of Flowers (as it was called in Illefarn), the elves had settled into five major civilizations on Faerûn. Spread from north to south along the western coast were Aryvandaar (gold elves), Illefarn (green elves), Miyeritar (dark and green elves), Shantel Othreier (gold and moon elves), and Keltormir (moon and green elves). There were other elven outposts and realms both on Faerûn and beyond in other parts of Toril such as Thearnytaar, Eiellûr, and Syòrpiir (the predominately green elf kingdoms in the major forest south of the Vilhon Reach) or Orishaar and Ilythiir, the moon and dark elf domains in the woods south of the Lake of Steam (in the forests that once covered the Shaar).
(Cormanthyr, p. 21)
It should be noted that there is a clear distinction being made between green and dark elves, which wouldn't have been necessary (or been made) if they had been the same from the word go. It was pretty clear that the dark elves were seen as a distinct subrace ... and, as it happens, they were according to Evermeet too. Lolth at one point looks at Kiaransalee's realm in the Abyss and her minions, who were actually "dark elves" whom the Revenancer called "Drow". And those lived on their own worlds under her sway. (Evermeet, p. 138)
If anything, TGHotR should have used FRCS denominations and updated the timeline accordingly: the green elves who arrived on Toril later split up into wild and wood elves (as is written in the FRCG/FRPG now), while there also arrived the moon elves and the "gold" a.k.a. sun elves and the dark elves. Add to that the star elves. Later on, the term "green elf" was showing the ancestry of the wild and wood elves - as opposed to the other "tribes", but there are no "real" green elves about as such. The dark elves as a whole were forced into the Underdark and became drow, some of them returned and were turned back into "dark elves" again. End of story.
That they placed the fey stuff into the elves pedigree is fine, as long as it is done outside the FR timeline - for continuity reasons.
Of course, the re-denomination of some elves into eladrin (who are still fey though) and some others into devas (previously aasimar, FRPG, p.21) is a bit baffling. Not that new gamers will note this.
-As has been mentioned in this thread, any Drow who were of pure Miyeritari heritage, or were faithful of Eilistraee reverted to their original Dark Elven forms in 1378 DR.
Even the evil ones? As has been said, there were numerous mentionings of who was actually transformed and who was not. You see, even if they had been of Miyeritar descent (like Q'arlynd and his whole family), would they simply shed all what they had been taught in their life and the ways they have been brought up, in essence become "good" or the like and hurry up to the surface and "join the dance" etc.? Every drow suddenly turning up brown in a drow city has surely a few questions to answer, not just to the onlookers, but to him-/herself too. Open ends galore ... which is one of the disappointments of the novel.
(Obviously, I can see a rush of suns and moons running into the Underdark to save their "dark brethren" (not sisters
) and guide them to the light ... aye right!)Of course, the re-denomination of some elves into eladrin (who are still fey though) and some others into devas (previously aasimar, FRPG, p.21) is a bit baffling. Not that new gamers will note this.
devas? seriously? oh well, haven't gotten my FRPG yet.
However, the retyping of the elven races into Eladrin, Elf and Drow (I wonder if Avariel are going to come out?) is fairly insignificant. It's purely mechanical. After all, the biggest difference (mechanically) between moon (silver) elves and sun (gold) elves was that the former recieved +2dex/-2con while the latter recieved +2int/-2con. Eladrin recieve +2dex AND +2int. Everything else was pure fluff. Similarly the two green elf sub-(sub?)races (haha) were, well, similar to say the least.
As far as I'm concerned the denizens of the Realms would continue calling eladrin and elves the same thing - elves. and gold elves would still be jackasses and call silver elves "grey."
Also, PHB states that other names for eladrin are "sun elf," "moon elf," and "star elf"
Oh, that bit in the novel ain't the bone of contention, of course, the passages of Cormanthyr are ... (where about 90% of the early history of the Grand History actually comes from (and word by word)
It should be noted that there is a clear distinction being made between green and dark elves, which wouldn't have been necessary (or been made) if they had been the same from the word go.
-I don't think that anyone is contending that, originally, they were seen as two separate things. Looking for continuity problems, concerning turning Dark Elves into Green Elves, you're not going to find anything concrete.
Even the evil ones?
-Certainly, so long as they were of pure Miyeritari blood. Q'arlynd was certainly not good. He was either neutral, or evil. And, he transformed. Same thing with his partner, and students.
You see, even if they had been of Miyeritar descent (like Q'arlynd and his whole family), would they simply shed all what they had been taught in their life and the ways they have been brought up, in essence become "good" or the like and hurry up to the surface and "join the dance" etc.?
-Where are you getting that from? Nothing anywhere says anything like this. As evidenced by the fact that Q'arlynd and his partners, and students didn't suddenly have a change of heart about their entire lives upon retransforming back into Dark Elves, this isn't true. Physically, they change, but that is all. A really evil Drow, who happened to be of the correct bloodline, would transform. Hallistra, the Lady Penitent, would have transformed, had she not been altered by Lolth into her "spider-form".
-I don't think that anyone is contending that, originally, they were seen as two separate things. Looking for continuity problems, concerning turning Dark Elves into Green Elves, you're not going to find anything concrete.
Do you actually believe what you are writing here? Anyway, if TGHoF's version is fine by you, fair enough.
-Where are you getting that from? Nothing anywhere says anything like this. As evidenced by the fact that Q'arlynd and his partners, and students didn't suddenly have a change of heart about their entire lives upon retransforming back into Dark Elves, this isn't true. Physically, they change, but that is all. A really evil Drow, who happened to be of the correct bloodline, would transform. Hallistra, the Lady Penitent, would have transformed, had she not been altered by Lolth into her "spider-form".
Just an assumption. They all speak of redemption all along the way and I was under the impression that the spell was not just turning the skin colour to a lighter shade. Add to that the rush of Corellon's children to get their dark brethren to the surface - as intimiated in the last lines of LP III - and you may understand how I got there. Of course, there was a bit of taint-cleansing involved as well when Qilué tried her little plot with Wendonai, though I could for the love of all things Faerûn not comprehend how she came to this conclusion (and that it may actually work). Good to have some deux-ex-machina back-up, just like Q'arlynd had with his kiira ancestors and godslaying-spells.
As I said, I can clearly envisage a decent slaughter of suddenly brown-turned "elves" in drow cities, folk who had their spell-like abilities, SR and darkvision removed. Not that we will ever know ...
-Don't worry about it. ;)
Don't have to. Obviously, I've got people, like Zanan, to do it for me. ;)
Do you actually believe what you are writing here? Anyway, if TGHoF's version is fine by you, fair enough.
-Do I believe that there are few continuity problems by saying that the Dark Elves are a branch of the Green Elves? Yes. Ultimatley, do I like that the Dark Elves were made into a branch of the Green Elves? No.