Drow and his languages - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Drow and his languages

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
mikus13
Jan 15, 2009 13:27:28 Hi

I'm starting an campagin in Faerun. One of my players wanted to play a dark elf warlock, when I checked his character sheet to look if there aren't any mistakes. There was one actualy. He had common, elven, abyssal and deep speach. I said that if he wanted he could have linguist feat to have these languages, but he started to argue that its basic training for all drow showing me the text from wikipedia about drow in faerun to prove it. Then i started a counter attack that indeed drows in novels knewmany languages but they were all noble blood trained for something more than hunting down monsters and killing theme without saying a word, and after mentioning that he's background consisted of noble birth i said that it would be logical to say that he knew all those languages but with using the linguiste feat, but he started arguing again and again, and i dont know what should i do, i dont want to be a referee but it doesn't sound well that DM gives bonuses to player for fluff purpuses.
#2
onusbone
Jan 15, 2009 13:41:14 Your instinct is correct, in that he should receive no mechanical benefit for fluff. If he wants the languages, he should take linguist as a feat: this will represent his noble birth, or whatever he wants as the reason behind his polyglot urge.
#3
kouk
Jan 15, 2009 14:01:46 The DM is the referee. You maintain a level of game rules consistency and balance for the greater enjoyment of everyone.

Consider how many people are taught languages in school but don't retain them much at all. It may be like that for his character if he doesn't take the Linguist feat representing his engraving the languages into his mind. "Oh, that word is an insult in abyssal, I think."

It wouldn't destroy your game if you let all players have 2 free languages, but it isn't necessary.

He probably has the INT if he's a Darklock or Starlock, so it may be just a matter of prioritizing his feats. I might allow a player to spend his 2nd level feat on Linguist "in advance" when he's still 1st level, but then he wouldn't get a feat at 2nd level. It wouldn't mess up the game at level 1, nothing really talks those languages then.
#4
lurkalot
Jan 15, 2009 14:02:47
Your instinct is correct, in that he should receive no mechanical benefit for fluff. If he wants the languages, he should take linguist as a feat: this will represent his noble birth, or whatever he wants as the reason behind his polyglot urge.

I would agree with you. However, when 4th was released I participated in a long and tiresome flamefest here filled with people who insisted that the DM should give game advantages for background fluff. E.g. if the player says her character used to be a blacksmith then they should be able to smith weapons, if the character came from a particular culture, they should speak that language and know those customs, etc. One of those people happened to be one of the game's designers. : /

So I agree, but it's not apparently the 4th Ed. way.
#5
etarnon
Jan 15, 2009 14:04:35 Wikipedia is not the rules.

Tell him if he wants it, that's what he'll have to do.

If not, he can find a new game.

If you let him run over you now, you establish with some whining he can get whatever he wants.
#6
lord_karsus
Jan 15, 2009 14:26:05 -The languages that most Drow speak or understand would be Elven, one or both of the Drow dialects of Undercommon- High Drow for nobles and priestess’, and Low Drow for everyone else- a language appropriate to the region of their birth, and Drow Hand Cant/Drow Sign Language. Those with the time and inclination, particularly warriors and magicians, learn it along with many other tongues, including Abyssal, Common, Draconic, and Goblin. Each major Drow city has it’s own local dialect, and Drow from other cities can usually tell from whence another Drow came because of these accents.
#7
philnicau
Jan 15, 2009 17:02:46
Hi

I'm starting an campagin in Faerun. One of my players wanted to play a dark elf warlock, when I checked his character sheet to look if there aren't any mistakes. There was one actualy. He had common, elven, abyssal and deep speach. I said that if he wanted he could have linguist feat to have these languages, but he started to argue that its basic training for all drow showing me the text from wikipedia about drow in faerun to prove it. Then i started a counter attack that indeed drows in novels knewmany languages but they were all noble blood trained for something more than hunting down monsters and killing theme without saying a word, and after mentioning that he's background consisted of noble birth i said that it would be logical to say that he knew all those languages but with using the linguiste feat, but he started arguing again and again, and i dont know what should i do, i dont want to be a referee but it doesn't sound well that DM gives bonuses to player for fluff purpuses.

Advise your players that you're only using core books then refer him to Forgotten Realms Players Guide page 8, where it clearly states that the starting languages for Drow are Common and Elven.
A possible comprimise may be to create a Underdark Regional Benefit along the lines of
You gain one bonus language chosen from (Deep Speech, Abyssal, Goblin, or Giant) as well as a +2 to Dungeoneering.
#8
dirtyfrank
Jan 15, 2009 17:59:32 He gets common and elven for free. The others must be obtained by the linguist feat. I would make the player take the feat or give it to them for free if they wanted to sacrifice an ability. One such compromise I would try making is the giving of the feat for free but the character loses one of the two lolthtouched powers.

You are the DM so you have final say. You should however try to reason and make compromises. You should however never bend to the will of the players. If you give him something extra then he must lose something in return or everyone must gets something extra (which should result in encounters being tougher).
#9
mowaca
Jan 15, 2009 18:31:13 Drow changed a lot in 4e, and its hard to really connect to the 3.5 version. As the DM, they have been mechanically de-powered to match the other races, they are normal PC races who do not automatically start evil and do not have social problems. One final way they have been de-powered was to give them a single language, Elven.

If after all this, your player thinks that his character has those extra languages, and doesn't have to take the linguist feat...I'd probably give in and move on with the campaign.
#10
undrave
Jan 15, 2009 21:32:45 Just say he gets to know a few words related to his trade in each language, including a few insults, but he wouldn't be able to decipher a full text or hold a conversation. The rest he just forgot until he takes the linguist feat. That'd be a good compromise if you ask me.

Another possiblity is to tell him nothing speaks Deep Speach or Abyssal until later in levels so that he can be considered to be speaking those languages but MUST take the feat when you get into levels around which you can encounter such creatures (I think Gnolls are the first ones) He gets his fluff and the crunch will catch up later.
#11
eini
Jan 17, 2009 22:30:40 Some of the Wikapedia entry might be based on older versions of D&D that gave added languages for high intellegence. Explain that the feats a player can now take are the mechanical instrument for achieving this. Added languages for int was an offset for the high damage a fighter could deal with "exceptional Str" or a rogues better AC based on dex. Now that high Int gives an AC bonus it is not needed.

If you want to push the point you can suggest the player trade the AC bonus for the extra languages:D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mikus13 Jan 15, 2009 13:27:28	Hi I'm starting an campagin in Faerun. One of my players wanted to play a dark elf warlock, when I checked his character sheet to look if there aren't any mistakes. There was one actualy. He had common, elven, abyssal and deep speach. I said that if he wanted he could have linguist feat to have these languages, but he started to argue that its basic training for all drow showing me the text from wikipedia about drow in faerun to prove it. Then i started a counter attack that indeed drows in novels knewmany languages but they were all noble blood trained for something more than hunting down monsters and killing theme without saying a word, and after mentioning that he's background consisted of noble birth i said that it would be logical to say that he knew all those languages but with using the linguiste feat, but he started arguing again and again, and i dont know what should i do, i dont want to be a referee but it doesn't sound well that DM gives bonuses to player for fluff purpuses.
#2 onusbone Jan 15, 2009 13:41:14	Your instinct is correct, in that he should receive no mechanical benefit for fluff. If he wants the languages, he should take linguist as a feat: this will represent his noble birth, or whatever he wants as the reason behind his polyglot urge.
#3 kouk Jan 15, 2009 14:01:46	The DM is the referee. You maintain a level of game rules consistency and balance for the greater enjoyment of everyone. Consider how many people are taught languages in school but don't retain them much at all. It may be like that for his character if he doesn't take the Linguist feat representing his engraving the languages into his mind. "Oh, that word is an insult in abyssal, I think." It wouldn't destroy your game if you let all players have 2 free languages, but it isn't necessary. He probably has the INT if he's a Darklock or Starlock, so it may be just a matter of prioritizing his feats. I might allow a player to spend his 2nd level feat on Linguist "in advance" when he's still 1st level, but then he wouldn't get a feat at 2nd level. It wouldn't mess up the game at level 1, nothing really talks those languages then.
#4 lurkalot Jan 15, 2009 14:02:47	Your instinct is correct, in that he should receive no mechanical benefit for fluff. If he wants the languages, he should take linguist as a feat: this will represent his noble birth, or whatever he wants as the reason behind his polyglot urge. I would agree with you. However, when 4th was released I participated in a long and tiresome flamefest here filled with people who insisted that the DM should give game advantages for background fluff. E.g. if the player says her character used to be a blacksmith then they should be able to smith weapons, if the character came from a particular culture, they should speak that language and know those customs, etc. One of those people happened to be one of the game's designers. : / So I agree, but it's not apparently the 4th Ed. way.
#5 etarnon Jan 15, 2009 14:04:35	Wikipedia is not the rules. Tell him if he wants it, that's what he'll have to do. If not, he can find a new game. If you let him run over you now, you establish with some whining he can get whatever he wants.
#6 lord_karsus Jan 15, 2009 14:26:05	-The languages that most Drow speak or understand would be Elven, one or both of the Drow dialects of Undercommon- High Drow for nobles and priestess’, and Low Drow for everyone else- a language appropriate to the region of their birth, and Drow Hand Cant/Drow Sign Language. Those with the time and inclination, particularly warriors and magicians, learn it along with many other tongues, including Abyssal, Common, Draconic, and Goblin. Each major Drow city has it’s own local dialect, and Drow from other cities can usually tell from whence another Drow came because of these accents.
#7 philnicau Jan 15, 2009 17:02:46	Hi I'm starting an campagin in Faerun. One of my players wanted to play a dark elf warlock, when I checked his character sheet to look if there aren't any mistakes. There was one actualy. He had common, elven, abyssal and deep speach. I said that if he wanted he could have linguist feat to have these languages, but he started to argue that its basic training for all drow showing me the text from wikipedia about drow in faerun to prove it. Then i started a counter attack that indeed drows in novels knewmany languages but they were all noble blood trained for something more than hunting down monsters and killing theme without saying a word, and after mentioning that he's background consisted of noble birth i said that it would be logical to say that he knew all those languages but with using the linguiste feat, but he started arguing again and again, and i dont know what should i do, i dont want to be a referee but it doesn't sound well that DM gives bonuses to player for fluff purpuses. Advise your players that you're only using core books then refer him to Forgotten Realms Players Guide page 8, where it clearly states that the starting languages for Drow are Common and Elven. A possible comprimise may be to create a Underdark Regional Benefit along the lines of You gain one bonus language chosen from (Deep Speech, Abyssal, Goblin, or Giant) as well as a +2 to Dungeoneering.
#8 dirtyfrank Jan 15, 2009 17:59:32	He gets common and elven for free. The others must be obtained by the linguist feat. I would make the player take the feat or give it to them for free if they wanted to sacrifice an ability. One such compromise I would try making is the giving of the feat for free but the character loses one of the two lolthtouched powers. You are the DM so you have final say. You should however try to reason and make compromises. You should however never bend to the will of the players. If you give him something extra then he must lose something in return or everyone must gets something extra (which should result in encounters being tougher).
#9 mowaca Jan 15, 2009 18:31:13	Drow changed a lot in 4e, and its hard to really connect to the 3.5 version. As the DM, they have been mechanically de-powered to match the other races, they are normal PC races who do not automatically start evil and do not have social problems. One final way they have been de-powered was to give them a single language, Elven. If after all this, your player thinks that his character has those extra languages, and doesn't have to take the linguist feat...I'd probably give in and move on with the campaign.
#10 undrave Jan 15, 2009 21:32:45	Just say he gets to know a few words related to his trade in each language, including a few insults, but he wouldn't be able to decipher a full text or hold a conversation. The rest he just forgot until he takes the linguist feat. That'd be a good compromise if you ask me. Another possiblity is to tell him nothing speaks Deep Speach or Abyssal until later in levels so that he can be considered to be speaking those languages but MUST take the feat when you get into levels around which you can encounter such creatures (I think Gnolls are the first ones) He gets his fluff and the crunch will catch up later.
#11 eini Jan 17, 2009 22:30:40	Some of the Wikapedia entry might be based on older versions of D&D that gave added languages for high intellegence. Explain that the feats a player can now take are the mechanical instrument for achieving this. Added languages for int was an offset for the high damage a fighter could deal with "exceptional Str" or a rogues better AC based on dex. Now that high Int gives an AC bonus it is not needed. If you want to push the point you can suggest the player trade the AC bonus for the extra languages:D