who is this Vhaerun you speak of.
where are his masked assassins
Who is this Eilistraee
where are the nude dancers on the night above
who is this Selvetarm
where are the spiders that wait
who is Kiaransalee
where are her undead toys
who is thisGhaunadaur
where is his slimelords
There is only Loth
we are her meat
Where is this Vhaerun, for his followers are gone and take by a nudist
Where is this Eilistraee, for her nude dancers are all gone and the music has stopped.
Where is this Selventarm, his driders now only venerate the queen of spiders
Where is Kiaransalee, for her children are all brainwashed to forget her
Where Ghaunadaur for his slimes have left the demonweb pits
we know only Lolth for we are her meat
there is no other...
those who worship others are heretics.
there is no other
and you shall know lolth and she'll laugh while you scream as you become one of her own
there are only spiders
and spiders are all
I'm not sure Eilistraee is completely dead (Cavatina's head was also severed by the Crescent Blade and her soul was not destroyed...so it's possible that Eilistraee can be bought back) but that's just speculation on my part. Before bringing back any dead drow dieties though, they need to bring back Mystra (or Mistryl!). No goddess of magic is just /wrong/.
so she might not be dead, but may be an archfey.
and as for GHaunadar, that was an avatar of his that was trapped in a maze spell..... but one of the other drow cities is filled with slime too...
Using the Neverwinter Campaign Guide as an indicator of how they want to do things, Menzoberranzan really makes a lot of sense. There's a tie in to NWCG via House Xorlarrin poking around Gauntlegrym, and Bregan D'aerthe, and Menzoberranzan sounds about right for paragon level challenges.
Whereas the NWCG has several factions vying for control, Menzoberranzan has several houses doing the same thing, not to mention groups like the Jaezred Chaulssin trying to invoke their own brand of change.
Since they added the shadowfell reflection of neverwinter in the NWCG, I'm curious to see if there is a feydark reflection of Menzoberranzan included in the new book.
The recently announced Menzoberranzan sourcebook that is coming out next summer should have more info for your use as well.
That seems like a reasonable speculation, doesn't it Mr. James?
I think you guys will be pleased. I know I am.
Cheers
What we DO know, is that Cavatina (the darksong knight who killed Selvatarm) also lost her head to the crescent blade, and we know that her soul was /not/ destroyed because it was seen at the end of Acendancy of the last being led into Arvandor.
Therefore, it stands to reason, if Cavatina's soul survived, it's quite possible that Eilistraee's did as well. I imagine we'll find her reborn somehow as an exarch of Corellon, who is god of the Ssri-Tel-Quessir (name used to eliminate confusion between the redeemed dark elves and the now separate race of drow)
what does ostensibly mean?
"Apparently" or "to all outward appearances." www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/osten...
And hmm, good question about Vhaeraun. I wonder if Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue will provide answers . . .
Cheers
That works too. The real question is...what about Vhaeraun? We never did see the body there...
comic book rules
comic book rules
aint no body than he's not dead.
he's an arch fey too
what does ostensibly mean?
"Apparently" or "to all outward appearances." www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/osten...
And hmm, good question about Vhaeraun. I wonder if Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue will provide answers . . .
Cheers
and the answer is....... not likely
unless they have an image of his cold dead cadaver hanging upside down from a spiderweb.
Well, Eilistraee had her head chopped off with the crescent blade, which SHOULD have destroyed her soul. However, the crescent blade had been broken, and somehow made whole.
What we DO know, is that Cavatina (the darksong knight who killed Selvatarm) also lost her head to the crescent blade, and we know that her soul was /not/ destroyed because it was seen at the end of Acendancy of the last being led into Arvandor.
Therefore, it stands to reason, if Cavatina's soul survived, it's quite possible that Eilistraee's did as well. I imagine we'll find her reborn somehow as an exarch of Corellon, who is god of the Ssri-Tel-Quessir (name used to eliminate confusion between the redeemed dark elves and the now separate race of drow)
The blade was just a fancy toy, what truly slew the deities was the divine boardgame to which they agreed to bind their essences. Selvetarm was also alive and kicking after being beheaded by the blade and only perished after his piece was taken from the board.
Kiaranshalee would also still be alive, even if that ridicolous spell would be assumed to work as described, that would merely mean that it would starts Kia's starvation, which would take centuries if not millenias until it finally kills her.
I think there was a bit of a un-intended spoiler in one of ESDB's threads about his home campaign with Eilistraee. I doubt that someone who writes canon would contradict it at home ;)
Mmm, interesting theory, but in this case, alas, you give me too much credit.
The moment a home game is begun, it diverges from canon. Ed himself plays a version of the Realms in which significant canonical events have not transpired (the Time of Troubles, for instance). Just like any other home FR game, my game sticks fairly close to canon, emphasizing those things I really like and glossing over or ignoring those things I'm not 100% sold on. Often I'll have the events of novels happen directly, if off to the side, and occasionally the PCs will interact with those NPCs.
All of which doesn't answer your question, does it? [
] I'm betting we see something on the "dead" drow gods in the Menzoberranzan book.
Seems like a good bet. [:D]
Cheers
As many times as I hear something about FR players getting cranky about violating canon and storming out of sessions, I can't help but be amused at the thought of someone who may not know any better telling Mr Greenwood, "That's not canon!"
Home games can and SHOULD diverge from canon, if only because the focus should be on the PCs, who are different characters than you might find in a novel or sourcebook. As a DM, if you're not following the story as it flows and are instead trying to force canon events into your game, your campaign is doomed. Canon is meant to empower, rather than straight-jacket, a DM.
The reaction to "that's not canon!" should always be "well, duh!"
Cheers
That means that several souls of creatures killed by the blade (like Selvetarm) were later released.
Since the last soul trapped was the Masked Lady, she migth still be 'in there'. Not lost, but improsoned.
The only deity I can say something about is Kiriansalee. Kiri is not dead, just 'forgotten'.
However, in one fo the LFR adventures I wrote ('The Sschindylryn Heresy', about a cult that worships 'an unnamed drow entity of death' ) she is remembered and summoned, though the adventurers banish her again using her truename.
I am working on a sequel (work title is 'Faith of the Spider Queen') , which would partly be set in Menzoberranzan. It might shake up some stuff...
Gomez
In truth it feels the Drow Pantheon and even the Elven Pantheon are little unbalance in good and evil. I would like to see an evil god for the Elven pantheon because some elves will be drawn to alignment and vice versa for the Drow. Call me a heretic for such things. Keep up the good work Gomez and Eric
Also, I love Vhaeraun, I'm a total fan LOL... So I like to think like some of his followers did, that he won the battle with Eilistraee but is simply 'masking' himself under her guise. Ah I hope so!!
the scene where she was at tehe table wit hthe skooma addict mother of hers it said she leaned over feigning death.
then cue skooma addict lolth and then figures change to dusky brown of the dark elves non ilthiri dark elves.
and cue Corellon LArethian.
as a deity she's gone and so is he, but archfey they could be.
on the otherhand.... looks at Sass Tann's ring of dread in Neverwinter.
the dark three.... the dead three
Bane Bhaal and MYrkul.
Bhaal is gone, Myrkul is in Skullport still kicking back in his crown of horns( really old man, go posses Cyric and while the realms will still hate you, they will toast you for murdering the god of murder whil he's sitting on his ultimate torliet.)
Bane is still here. Bane would know that when he told it to Sass TAnn that there might need to be more than just one trying to vie for power of godhood this way.
Assuming Vhaerun and Eilistraeee are archfey, they could manufacture the rods attuned to the dread ring. use it to steal their divinity back.
and walk off into the planes screaming Pull the leggs off Lolth!
I am honestly glad that Kianransalee is gone for awhile there no depth to the undead in this setting not like Whitewolf. Not that I am really good at rp a vampire. I am much better being a slayer.
AS for Lolth I have yet to find a good rp as char but she does make good NPC priestesses.
I wouldn't mind that Shevarash gets seduce by Shar and becomes evil. All that hatred he has can poison the goodness and corrupts Shevarash makes him just as bad as the Drow. Just having the same amount hatred as the drow is also not good for the elves.
That works too. The real question is...what about Vhaeraun? We never did see the body there...
and the answer is....... not likely
unless they have an image of his cold dead cadaver hanging upside down from a spiderweb.
In the second book of The Lady Penitent Trilogy, it is mentioned during the Lolth/Eilistraee interludes that they look into the Astral Plane and see the dead body of Vhaeraun floating (it is common knowledge that the corpses of dead gods float in the Astral Plane, such as the one that the githyanki built their city on).
This saddens me, because I liked Vhaeraun. But we DID have a body, and The Lady Penitent Trilogy encompasses several years. He was dead and gone for YEARS before Eilistraee bit the big one.
I never much cared for any of the "lesser" drow gods. I'm definitely interested to see what comes out though, and I know a lot of people will be happy with a Vhaeraun and/or Eilistraee return.
So let me Mr. Peabody this thing.. back in the day the Chaos hound was released. It was chewing on mask (The god). Mask went from an intermediate deity to a lesser diety to escape the hound. I'm thinking Eilastraee could have done the same thing to escape. From my view she only made one mistake, bellying up the the Sava board in the first place. thats her mothers game.
So the new drow who are not drow, the brownies.. I am wondering whats up with them. At the point of the release of the ritual did all the drow on Faerun get to make a desision about it? If so i can imagin that Menzoberranzan went beserk. the evil drow would decend upon them like locust.
I was putting together an adventure where Eilastraee was found in Sigil, Working in a bar with no memories. The advunturers would then go thru a series of encounters untill finally they would mine out the Godspark from a floating Diety, Prob Mystra, and that would then elevate her to an Archfey.
I am currently running a campaign that involves some these gods we are speaking of, and Nightray is actually in it so I am reluctant to post details
. I was dismayed when some fo the gods were killed because I belive they filled the right areas, the drow pantheon suffered the msot probably, because now (at face value) there is only one 'evil' goddess, and there is no alternatives.
but was that his actuall cold rotting dead corpse though??? or was it all an illusion??
If you read The Lady Penitent Trilogy, then you would remember that there was at least one cleric of Vhaeraun who believed that he was inside Eilistraee, still working behind the scenes, manipulating her. But that became sort of a moot point after she was killed.
4E Realms is just stupid and simplified. Thank you WotC for killing the Forgotten Realms.
Why on Earth did they think killing off all the Drow deities but Lolth (and arguably Ghaundaur) would be a good idea? That's exactly what the Drows didn't need. Less diversity.
Totally. Now the drow are only a bunch of indoctrinated, frustrated and sadistic people, tools of revenge for their spider deity.
I mean, beside natural differences in characterial behaviour, if I took a random drow, in a random moment of the day and tried to guess his thoughts saying that he's plotting how to advance his ''social status'' at the expense of someone else, I'd probably be right. Their goal in life is only collecting power, dominating others and inflicting pain, just because, for the sake of it, and basically none of them can now think outside this box.
How the RotU trailer said, Lolth is almost breeding them and that's utterly boring if compared to the variety that there was when, beside Lolth, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun inspired them. Also, such diversity -and the whole story behind it- is what makes the FR drow characteristic of the setting and not anonymous dark elves.
Why on Earth did they think killing off all the Drow deities but Lolth (and arguably Ghaundaur) would be a good idea? That's exactly what the Drows didn't need. Less diversity.
4E Realms is just stupid and simplified. Thank you WotC for killing the Forgotten Realms.
And what is stopping you from ignoring anything that's happened to the Realms you don't like, again?
Why on Earth did they think killing off all the Drow deities but Lolth (and arguably Ghaundaur) would be a good idea? That's exactly what the Drows didn't need. Less diversity.
4E Realms is just stupid and simplified. Thank you WotC for killing the Forgotten Realms.
And what is stopping you from ignoring anything that's happened to the Realms you don't like, again?
1st: It is obvious that in personal campaigns people ignore what they don't like, they don't need to be told to do that in order to understand.
2nd: Absence from canon of everything about the drow but Lolth means no further material about non spider worshiping drow, no further novels, nothing about them. That's a pretty valid reason to not just shrug at such kind of changes.
3rd: Players don't always have the chance to ignore canon. It depends on their DM.
Why on Earth did they think killing off all the Drow deities but Lolth (and arguably Ghaundaur) would be a good idea? That's exactly what the Drows didn't need. Less diversity.
4E Realms is just stupid and simplified. Thank you WotC for killing the Forgotten Realms.
And what is stopping you from ignoring anything that's happened to the Realms you don't like, again?
1st: It is obvious that in personal campaigns people ignore what they don't like, they don't need to be told to do that in order to understand.
2nd: Absence from canon of everything about the drow but Lolth means no further material about non spider worshiping drow, no further novels, nothing about them. That's a pretty valid reason to not just shrug at such kind of changes.
3rd: Players don't always have the chance to ignore canon. It depends on their DM.
I don't know...I play drow all the time, and I have exactly one Lolth-worshipper, which I only made as a joke for a one-shot we did...what was my main character's aunt and was hunting him down to sacrifice him.
As for my others, as most of my drow are renegades, I pick whichever god or goddess on the surface suits my whim. Usually, I tend to go for Selune or Sehanine, since they killed Mystra and there is no true god or goddess of Magic to choose from. Frankly, I don't think the drow /need/ a full pantheon to choose from, and they certainly don't need Eilistraee.
I don't know...I play drow all the time, and I have exactly one Lolth-worshipper, which I only made as a joke for a one-shot we did...what was my main character's aunt and was hunting him down to sacrifice him.
As for my others, as most of my drow are renegades, I pick whichever god or goddess on the surface suits my whim. Usually, I tend to go for Selune or Sehanine, since they killed Mystra and there is no true god or goddess of Magic to choose from. Frankly, I don't think the drow /need/ a full pantheon to choose from, and they certainly don't need Eilistraee.
I feel the exact opposite.
Eilistraee feels like a loving mother for the drow, but also a kind of 'freedom fighter'. She's a rebel who fights to grant the drow what she stands for (the main theme of her flavor): the freedom for every creature to choose one's own life, ideas and to express and fulfill oneself, free from the shackles of any kind of indoctrination/nonsensical dogmatic brainwashing, oppression or consuming hatred.
She -actively- tries to teach the drow life, to rebuild the bond among them (and regain the identity of the People) and to welcome and accept beings from all races without discriminations. But the beauty of it is that in trying to free and redeem the drow, she -and her followers- forgo the violent and hard approach. Instead, they make them understand that a different, joyful kind of life is possible by offering them kindness, acceptance, compassion and help. By loving and giving the drow value for what they are (this is the contrary of the assumption that life is intrinsically worthless -and that it is dominating others which gives it sense- that is at the base of lolthite mentality) and encouraging free self-expression and fulfillment that Lolth denies them, the Dark Maiden undoes the web of lies that the Spider Queens spins around their heads, opening their minds to alternatives and offering them the key to live an enjoyable existence.
That is demonstrating with facts and open minded attitude that different ways of life are possible, thus helping the dark elves to find their own path to 'redemption' without slamming it in their faces like dogma, without intervening personally in their lives (a thing that Lolth brought to a whole new level), but inspiring understanding and personal choices.
Eilistraee offers the drow what they were (unjustly) denied in their descent and thus forgot, the possibility to revel in life (the dance, song, beauty parts of her portfolios) and live it freely, how and where they were meant to in first place.
Other deities (like the Seldarine) could be worshiped by renegade drow but, how would they know of them in first instance, giving their total isolation? How would they react seeing that clerics of said deities try to kill them on sight? How would they survive aided by none in an environment hostile to them? The Seldarine, the very same who provided the magic to doom the drow, do nothing to encourage them to escape Lolth, something that Eilistraee made her own goal of. So, no other deity can replace what she is for the dark elves.
That said, from a metagaming point of view, no deity is actually /needed/. Even Lolth could be replaced by random demons. Thing is, flavor is also very important, and Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (and the whole story behind all their struggle) make the race characteristic to the Realms and give depth to it. Depth that was, alas, removed in an ugly, meaningless and unfitting way.
The flavor is my biggest complain about Eilistraee. She's just as big of a man hater as Lolth is. Since Eilistraee didn't accept males as Priests, I'm stuck with ...vhaerun as my choice if I happen to like playing males, and nothing at all if I don't want to follow an evil god.
I premise that I don't like that fact about her.
That said, I think that it was meant as a flavorful way to highlight her role as 'mother goddess' for the WHOLE drow race.
However Eilistraee is no man hater at all. The LP novels portray her that way, but the sourcebooks about her say that she accepts, loves and gives value to EVERY drow and follower from any race or gender. Having only female priestesses =/= hating them. Deities have the rights to choose their own agents, after all.
And this fact is what i hated most about the novels (along with the pantheon demise itself and the way it was done), deities acting out of character (like Vaheraun charging Eilistraee in her realm and her cutting him into little pieces, or her whole sacrifice thingy. That basically said to all the drow either you spontaneously redeem and follow me or I don't give two craps about you and I don't care for the ones who never heard of me, not yet born etc... This is the exact opposite of Eilistraee).
So we have two depictions of her and i don't see any reason to pick the worse. Of course if they mean to get her back (a thing which, of course, I'd like a lot) I hope they'll take the better and improve it by extending priesthood to males as well.
It's not the novels that give her that flavor...she starts off that way, in the 2e sourcebook that introduced her. What's the point of having a good goddess at all if she discriminates? I'm glad that it's back to good ol Mother Lolth, and everyone who escapes her web faces a tough path rather then a baked in, easy way to being a "good drow".
The fact that males are "not worthy" to be priests is reason enough for me to discard her to the waste bin. I can get that from Lolth too. Lolth accepts, in fact demands that the males worship her. I don't see one iota of difference between the two beyond good or evil.
It's not the novels that give her that flavor...she starts off that way, in the 2e sourcebook that introduced her. What's the point of having a good goddess at all if she discriminates? I'm glad that it's back to good ol Mother Lolth, and everyone who escapes her web faces a tough path rather then a baked in, easy way to being a "good drow".
Then we'll just agree to disagree. As I said the whole male only priests was probably done as a way to reflect her purpose of mothering the whole drow races. The sourcebooks say she accepts, aids and love all beings who revel in life and want to live free from Lolth-like oppression without discriminations, encouraging them to express and fulfill themselves. You can't even remotely compare this to Lolth. She imposes worshiping and indoctrination, oppressing drow and using them like tools. One stands for freedom of life, the other for tyranny and domination.
About the novels, they started unjustly giving Eilistraee the ''sexist'' spin. Beside the priesthood issue, she didn't have a trace of it in 2e. Somewhere it even says that her clergy is in -most (not all ofc)- of the cases anarchical, thus removing the issue of having males as less worthy than females, a totally non fitting concept for Eilistraee. I guess she doesn't accept male priests not because she doesn't deem them worthy, but because she doesn't deem suited for the tasks she meant her prieshood to take care of.
And being a good drow was never easy. Eilistraee offers them aid but even her clergy/followers have to suffer prejudice, extreme hostility and discrimination.
Yes, I have all the drow source books from the previous editions. Like you said, we'll have to agree to disagree.
Wait, does it say anywhere that she deems males worthless?
Lolth doesn't deem them worthless either. She deems them as less value then a female, but to Lolth, males have their purpose. I never said Eilistraee found males to be worthless. She doesn't find them to be the equal of females in her eyes...just like Lolth ;)
No. Lolth thinks males as objects, way inferior to women. Eilistraee gives as much value to women as she gives to men, but like -say- generally a man is better suited to heavy physical effort jobs than a woman, she thought that females were better suited for her priesthood tasks than males (again, because of her purpose of being a mother for the drow). That doesn't make them inferior in her eyes. That is what caused so much drama, even tho it is pretty much evident that she was not meant by Ed as sexist.
Regardless, great thread. I've enjoyed reading through the responses.
I wonder if the sourcebook content isn't more of a bone thrown out to players who want to play male followers of Eilistraee, while the novels fit more of non-gaming, story-based view of the goddess?
Regardless, great thread. I've enjoyed reading through the responses.
It doens't make sense for Eilistraee to deem males inferior of women. She is all about tolerance, acceptance, freedom of expression and life (beside redemption ofc) regardless of race and gender. She is a mother for the drow. How could she be sexist Oo?
My take is that all of the man-hater Eilistraee thing in novels happened because authors misunderstood the priesthood issue (which again I think is a flaw of the goddess) in men don't have the same value of women thingy, while, for the reason I explained above, is not the same thing.
and then relieve yourself on it.
hahahahahahahaha
anyway didnt anybody ever consider that the reason that Eilistraee has female priests only, is becuase that the female drow are the ones that need the lesson most??
anyway I never saw that Eilistraee couldnt have male priests, but only the sword dancers had to be female.
I disagree. You like Eilistraee, and I don't. I don't think the "mother of the drow" thing cuts it. If mommy likes your sister better then you, or implies that your sister is better then you, or more worthy then you...then she's a crappy mother. Just like Eilistraee is a crappy goddess ;)
Well, that is obvious at this point.
But again Eilistraee doesn't think males have less value than females. She thinks that they are better suited for different tasks (the example I made before). Oh, btw, read DIFFERENT, not lesser tasks. The mother goddess flavor was to explain from a metagaming point of view why she has only female priestesses.
And no, you may not like her, but Eilistraee is not a crappy goddess. I'm curious about what you'd think of her if she returned with non gender selective priesthood.
go pull the leggs of a spider.
and then relieve yourself on it.
hahahahahahahaha
anyway didnt anybody ever consider that the reason that Eilistraee has female priests only, is becuase that the female drow are the ones that need the lesson most??
anyway I never saw that Eilistraee couldnt have male priests, but only the sword dancers had to be female.
Eh, poor spiders. I'd rather spray Lolth with some Raid
.I wonder if the sourcebook content isn't more of a bone thrown out to players who want to play male followers of Eilistraee, while the novels fit more of non-gaming, story-based view of the goddess?
Regardless, great thread. I've enjoyed reading through the responses.
The 2e sourcebook is specifically what forbids males from being priests. There's no bone at all, other then a goddess tailor made for people who want to play good drow. I'd imagine the reason it was done that was is so that it wasn't such a radical departure from everything that previously existed for drow/their society. In 2e since nobody wanted to be the cleric anyways, it probably wasn't a big deal.
Even back in 1996 when I bought my Drow of the Underdark sourcebook (because I loved all things drow...you'll never know how crushed I was when I found out about Drizzt and realized that my dark elf ranger was /far/ from a unique idea) I thought it was crap. I still think it's crap.
In fact, the very same sourcebook, specifically allows males to be priests of Lolth of up to 7th level (technically it says she rarely allows them to advace past 7th level...so it can happen).
For the record, Vhaerhun is just as bad as his sister, he doesn't allow females to be priests other. Since he's evil though, I never really noticed it, much like it's not a problem for Lolth. I expect horrid behavior from evil gods and goddesses; not so much from supposedly good ones.
I disagree. You like Eilistraee, and I don't. I don't think the "mother of the drow" thing cuts it. If mommy likes your sister better then you, or implies that your sister is better then you, or more worthy then you...then she's a crappy mother. Just like Eilistraee is a crappy goddess ;)
Well, that is obvious at this point.
But again Eilistraee doesn't think males have less value than females. She thinks that they are better suited for different tasks (the example I made before). Oh, btw, read DIFFERENT, not lesser tasks. The mother goddess flavor was to explain from a metagaming point of view why she has only female priestesses.
And no, you may not like her, but Eilistraee is not a crappy goddess. I'm curious about what you'd think of her if she returned with non gender selective priesthood.
Different but not lesser doesn't work when you use it as an excuse barring females from the military in combat roles. Separate but equal didn't work with schools. It doesn't work in my fantasy religions, either. There's no reason a male couldnt preach the word as well as a female.
I disagree. You like Eilistraee, and I don't. I don't think the "mother of the drow" thing cuts it. If mommy likes your sister better then you, or implies that your sister is better then you, or more worthy then you...then she's a crappy mother. Just like Eilistraee is a crappy goddess ;)
Well, that is obvious at this point.
But again Eilistraee doesn't think males have less value than females. She thinks that they are better suited for different tasks (the example I made before). Oh, btw, read DIFFERENT, not lesser tasks. The mother goddess flavor was to explain from a metagaming point of view why she has only female priestesses.
And no, you may not like her, but Eilistraee is not a crappy goddess. I'm curious about what you'd think of her if she returned with non gender selective priesthood.
Different but not lesser doesn't work when you use it as an excuse barring females from the military in combat roles. Separate but equal didn't work with schools. It doesn't work in my fantasy religions, either. There's no reason a male couldnt preach the word as well as a female.
I know, in fact I don't like it. I was, as I said, trying to explain the designing choices in a flavorful way because, aside from that, Eilistraee makes really an awesome goddess. I mean she gave away her happiness in Arvandor for the drow, and -selflessly- dedicates herself fully to them (what I wrote in my first reply to you). That HAS to account for something.
I know, in fact I don't like it. I was, as I said, trying to explain the designing choices because, aside from that, Eilistraee makes really an awesome goddess. I mean she gave away her happiness in Arvandor for the drow, and -selflessly- dedicates herself fully to them (what I wrote in my first reply to you) that HAS to account for something.
Sure it does, just not much.
Aside from her man-hater issue, her fluff, just sucks. it's awful. Goddess of dancing naked in the moonlight? That does nothing for me. I'd like her a lot more if she were militant, a little more aggressive. Her short time as the masked lady was actually kinda cool. She was a little darker. Iwas like, finally, an Eilistraee that might be worth my time. Then she gets herself shivved. Eilistraee reminds me of care bears and my little ponies. Bleh.
Pick up your sword, and go FIGHT for the drow you supposedly want to mother. Give the drow something to respect.
I know, in fact I don't like it. I was, as I said, trying to explain the designing choices because, aside from that, Eilistraee makes really an awesome goddess. I mean she gave away her happiness in Arvandor for the drow, and -selflessly- dedicates herself fully to them (what I wrote in my first reply to you) that HAS to account for something.
Sure it does, just not much.
Aside from her man-hater issue, her fluff, just sucks. it's awful. Goddess of dancing naked in the moonlight? That does nothing for me. I'd like her a lot more if she were militant, a little more aggressive. Her short time as the masked lady was actually kinda cool. She was a little darker. Iwas like, finally, an Eilistraee that might be worth my time. Then she gets herself shivved. Eilistraee reminds me of care bears and my little ponies. Bleh.
Pick up your sword, and go FIGHT for the drow you supposedly want to mother. Give the drow something to respect.
Apologies about the Wall of Text.
In my first reply to you I talked about that. Ok, dancing naked is not necessary, but dance, music and beauty are one of the ways to lure the drow towards the kind of life they lost.
Eilistraee wants to show them that they have choice over what Lolth's indoctrination would have them to believe. She wants to open their mind to alternatives to violence and constant struggle.
Think about that. The Dark Maiden uses violence as last resource, but she teaches sword dance and hunting to her priestesses because they must know how to protect her ''sons and daughters'' (i.e. fight for them) and help them flourish in a hostile place.
However, she also wants to teach the drow freedom of self-expression, thought and choice, to teach them life as a mother would.
If her followers went around swinging a sword with a ''redeem or die/or I don't give a crap about you'' self-righteous attitude, they would show the drow that Lolth is, after all, right and that the only way of life is to dominate others with violence. By showing the ''lost'' drow kindness, acceptance, and that they have a great intrinsical value that goes way beyond their ''powah'', Eilistraee helps them finding their personal path to redemption, which comes from understanding and can not be given with a sword.
We're taliking about convincing someone that he/she wasted his/her whole life up to now and violence just is not the way to do it. That's also part of what makes her special in my eyes.
And she does indeed fight for the ones she wants to mother, protecting and aiding them through her priestesses (of course I don't think you pretend that she sends avatars in their defence, because that would just ruin the game; even if she could do so. After all, the 2e sourcebooks say she can go rage when her children are hurt).
So what she did for the drow accounts for much, and not just little. And it is an act of selfless love for a race, totally worth of respect.
However, I agree with you that more badassery would make her perfect if coupled with non gender selective priesthood. But she shouldn't be darker like the Masked Lady was. She is a patroness of song, art and beauty and that shouldn't be taken away from her flavor, it is one of her tools to reintroduce the drow to the life they lost and to bond with them (think about the evensong ritual that every follower can perform, in which they share their feelings with the goddess).
That said, you don't like Eilistraee for basically being /too/ good and soft (beside the priesthood thingy) and it is fine ofc. But it is no reason to get rid of her instead of perfecting her. As much as you don't like the goddess you can't deny that the conflict among her, Vhaeraun and Lolth has a huge role in spicing up a race that would otherwise be a GH drow copy-paste , i.e. ,as i said in a previous post, a bunch of indoctrinated, frustrated and sadistic people, tools of revenge for their spider deity, whose goal in life is unanimously collecting power, dominating others and inflicting pain, just because, for the sake of it, and who cannot think outside this box (at least, the vast majority can't).
What was said earlier in this topic about the book gives me good hope to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun in canon again. Even as a niche of little infuence in the Realms, not as poweful as they were (exarches archfey or w/e demigods are called now is more than fine) but at least capable of inspiring the drow/dark elves with what they stand for.
After all being underdogs and rebels, being surrounded by a veil of mystery is part of Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's charme, at least to me.
In fact, I seem to recall reading somewhere, that Sehanine in particular, was looking after the interests of drow with Eilistraee out of the picture. Given Sehanine's areas of interest (Moon, beauty, love etc...very similar to Eilistraee's) not to mention her specific opposition of the evil drow Deities (namely Lolth these days; especially given that Lolth, aka Araushnee and Sehanine's hubby Corellon used to be an item, the whole hate the ex thing) it stands to reason that Sehanine would be all about grabbing the drow who are looking for some change.
Well, getting Shevarash on board would probably be a bit difficult but nothing's easy.
Ed Greenwood has said this on Candlekeep forums in regards to male clerics of Eilistraee.
November 5, 2006:
"It is true that for some decades in the Realms (the time covered by the Realms boxed sets of both the 1st and 2nd Edition) there were apparently no male clerics of Lolth and no male clerics of Eilistraee, and no non-drow clergy of either goddess.
However, matters have changed.
Some (not all!) priestesses of Eilistraee believe the Dancer is worried about something dark she's foreseen. Others disagree - - but all admit the Goddess has, for reasons she's not divulged, changed the directives she gives her clergy and lay worshippers, to become far more inclusive. For one thing, the "dream visions" she's sent to senior established clergy have begun to direct them to accept both males and individuals of many races into the ranks of her clergy. (So, yes, Kentinal, a goblin priestess, gnome priestess, silver dragon, hill giants, and male priests of all stripes now ARE possible. We still don't know [not being able to personally quiz Eilistraee] if there are any races that remain unacceptable as her clergy, but whereas before the answer was: all of them except drow, and female drow at that, the answer now is: possibly; all certainty is gone.) There are even apparently lycanthropes and shapechanging races among the clergy of Eilistraee.
Yes, you heard me right: there now ARE a few males among her church, but to enter it they have all "Danced The Changedance" and spent time as female, just as Mystra caused Elminster to spend time as Elmara - - and for the same reasons: greater understanding and sensitivity of "the life of the other gender." One cannot truly feel the Divine Dance of Eilistraee PROPERLY except as a female, and so her (still very rare, few, and generally secretive about it) male priests must spend some time as a female (not just for the duration of a ritual, but they must do some everyday living as a female). The most accomplished drow, elf, half-elf, and human male priests seem to feel the need to take female form for some days every few years or so (if they wish to "cleave more fully to the Goddess" and thus rise in levels), and most spend longer and longer times in female form. Not all female priests of the Goddess fully trust the males, and they don't tend to rise much in the church hierarchy (no matter what character levels they achieve).
More than that, many drow priestesses of Eilistraee are unhappy about this, and may prove hostile (not to the point of violence or refusal to accept or aid, but with a coldness in manner and a wary "always watching over" any males, until they achieve acceptance on a personal level [e.g. "I still don't hold with allowing males - - males! - - to join the dances, but Elorand can be trusted; he's proven himself over and over, and don't think we haven't tested him. Other males, I still don't trust!"). Eilistraee has always had enough personal contact with her clergy that none of them would think of disbelieving that she truly means this "new way" to occur and to be followed - - and no established priestess of Eilistraee will renounce this new order, either. ("Reluctantly accepting and unhappily coping" is a good description of their state; "defying the goddess and rejecting males or trying to trick or lead them into fatal mishaps so we can be rid of them" would NOT be an accurate characterization."
- Ed Greenwood
Rest of the quote can be found here, www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/sse/... .
Honestly, I am curious to see what happens moving forward. Remember, at the end of the last Smedman book (Ascendancy of the Last perhaps...I dont recall) Corellon took Eilistraee's place at the sava board against Lolth. That could essentially put the entire Seldarine in play for gods for the drow, depending on how they choose to shake out that bit of lore.
In fact, I seem to recall reading somewhere, that Sehanine in particular, was looking after the interests of drow with Eilistraee out of the picture. Given Sehanine's areas of interest (Moon, beauty, love etc...very similar to Eilistraee's) not to mention her specific opposition of the evil drow Deities (namely Lolth these days; especially given that Lolth, aka Araushnee and Sehanine's hubby Corellon used to be an item, the whole hate the ex thing) it stands to reason that Sehanine would be all about grabbing the drow who are looking for some change.
Well, getting Shevarash on board would probably be a bit difficult but nothing's easy.
Wasn't Sehanine reabsorbed by Selune? Also, Sehanine is the goddess of Dreams and Mysticism, and her only affinity with Eilistraee is the moon. Difference is that Eilistraee's relation with the Moon is because the drow who live on the surface find relief in the night, and that's the frame of the day when she appears to them, when the Moon shines. And the Lady of Dreams doesn't have the same flavor of freedom that the Dark Maiden inspires, which is appropriate given what the latter wants to accomplish.
Yes, it might make sense having Corellon taking Eilistraee's place (not much tho, considering that the genius move to doom a whole race was powered by his magic. Also he didn't move a finger to help his daughter, ever. All he did was stepping in and grabbing the results of her work, not even giving a crap about her fate, or his son's...), but it would be a true shame.
That's because the LP trilogy ended in a way that really doesn't fit Eilistraee. I mean, seriously, she purposefully gave herself for her followers (and that's totally fitting), but what about all the other drow? By doing what she did, basically said to every other dark elf ''either you spontaneously redeem and become one of my follwers -yes, I don't care if you haven't ever heard of me- or I don't care about you'', not to mention depriving the ones not yet born of any chance of freedom and redemption. This sacrifice thing was done just to mask the purpose of the novels: only getting rid of the drow pantheon.
It's just not what Eilistraee would have done. This is the whole ''unwilling were cast down'' thingy that the Dark Maiden would never even take in consideration (seriously, that sounds like a Bible passage. What's next? The Holy Inquisition descends from the skies and purges the evil and unclean drow with divine fire?). She can't actually 'redeem' the ones who're already seeking alternatives to Lolth, she can just help and love them. It's the others, the ones still brainwashed, that need her support the most.
Brother and Sister were treated like pure crap in the novels. Not only they were got rid of, but they also were depicted for what they are NOT, by having them doing things they'd never do. It is unjust by itself, and even more considering how poupular they are (just take a look at fansites).
Besides, you said the Seldarine could grab the drow who are looking for some change. Any (good or neutral) deity could do this, to be honest.
As I said and explained many times, what makes Eilistraee unique for the drow is that she's all about opening their minds, teaching them life, ACTIVELY trying to get the drow out of the crappy situation in which they're trapped, offering them freedom and kindness. And ALL of them are worthy of this gift in her eyes. She makes of what I wrote above her main purpose (again, like a mother). NO other deity could replace this. Especially when their very clerics kill drow on sight (and I don't think their deities saying -yo, drow are fine now- will solve the situation, the hatred is just too intense).
Also, you have to consider that extremely few dark elves have the the resolve to understand that Lolth is basically using them like beasts to breed in order to get the perfect tool of conquest, and way fewer are smart enough to set themselves free from this without aid. You have to do what Eilistraee does to actually help the drow in this sense, as I said many times now. And sending their agents there to risk their life to help the drow -and to make them understand that life is not as they were brainwashed into believing- is something I don't think other gods would likely do. They'd just grab the drow who seek something different, but hey: no god turns away potential followers.
I understand you want to keep the Seldarine-Lolth conflict as the center of the thing, but what if Eilistraee returns as an exarch of Selune (or Sehanine, even though I thought she was just an aspect now) or Corellon. She would be doing what she did before without taking ''the spotlights'' (I said it in my other post. Being a rebel and an underdog is also part of her charme).
Seriously, the drow are much lessened without Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. They are what makes the FR drow different and characteristic and I don't see ANY reason to go on with the streamlining attitude that led to the whole mass of retcons, axing and apocalypses at the beginning of the 4e Realms and not reintroduce them (as i said, even in a lessened form). It would be saddening and extremely disappointing to me and -as far as I can see- to many others as well, if they didn't realize what a waste the LP events are and didn't fix their consequences. It would be a huge turnoff (again, to me at least) about the direction the Realms are going to take.
This quote might be useful.
Ed Greenwood has said this on Candlekeep forums in regards to male clerics of Eilistraee.
November 5, 2006:
"It is true that for some decades in the Realms (the time covered by the Realms boxed sets of both the 1st and 2nd Edition) there were apparently no male clerics of Lolth and no male clerics of Eilistraee, and no non-drow clergy of either goddess.However, matters have changed [...]
As for the changedance, as I see it, that was a failed attempt to remove a flaw from an otherwise awesome goddess. They could've just said ''Eilistraee now accepts male priests'' but they wanted to do it in a flavorful way (not that it is bad, ofc); problem is what was introduced only made the situation worse.
All of this spawned the ''OMG Eilistraee hates men'' thing, which is clearly not true, considering that she loves all drow. From selective priesthood they made the jump to sexism. It is an overreaction that was even more esacerbated in the novels.
And, btw, as I wrote, this aspect of her is a bad thing; I could understand the flavor behind this design choices but, given what Eilistraee stands for, it is just not appropriate.
As fot the original design purpose, I have this:
As posted at candlekeep, by THO:
"Nope. I was asked to create a “good drow deity” for DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, pertaining to surface-dwelling drow, and I did, deciding to depict her as nurturing mother goddess worshipped through dancing nude under the moonlight (echoing British faery traditions, but seeking to make her seem not capricious, as the faeries are depicted, but non-warlike, non-violent except when protecting “her” mortals). Through her priestesses, Eilistraee aids her faithful in hunting and swordcraft as a way of helping them to survive and flourish in a hostile surface world. She’s not HERSELF depicted as any sort of a huntress; she’s the force that brings a stag into the reach of hungry drow, not the slayer-by-arrows of drow foes.
She can personally be an avenger or protectress, yes (an aspect strengthened in 3rd Edition, not by me), fearsomely wielding the sword she dances with, but owes more to the bard than the huntress.
So you’ve turned to a classical goddess depicted as the huntress, a peerless archer whose shafts never miss (or almost never miss, depending on the tale). This puzzles me; I certainly wouldn’t equate a benevolent nurturing (and fertility, though thanks to the TSR Code of Ethics you have to read between the lines to see this in DROW OF THE UNDERDARK and SILVERFALL, where I certainly wasn’t very subtle about it) goddess with the Queen of the Hunt, the virgin Greek goddess of chastity.
Let’s look more closely at Artemis. In her Roman derivation (Diana), it’s death to a mortal man to see her nude - - but he sees her bathing; she isn’t in that tradition depicted as normally racing about the forests bareskinned. (Some writers do depict all of the classical deities so, which probably has much to do with many of the real-life mortal cities of worshippers having few nudity taboos.) She’s the moon goddess, also goddess of childbirth, wild life, domestic animals, and infants (children just after they are born), as well as being goddess of flocks, and of the chase.
So there are a lot of possible portfolios here that someone TRYING to draw a parallel could catch onto, to try to make their case, but none of them really fit: I created Eilistraee as worshipped under the moon because that’s when she appears, NOT a moon goddess; her only connection to the moon was because drow (who had to stay in the dark to keep any power, in that edition of the D&D game) on the surface could see the moon but Underdark drow could not. Eilistraee has nothing to do with domestic animals or wild life, and her mothering is not of childbirth or the young, but of the WHOLE race (to sustain and strengthen them in their return to the surface). Eilistraee has nothing to do with flocks or the chase, is not virginal, and has nothing to do with chastity."
So, as you see, there is a discrepancy beteween how she is/wants to accomplish and how she is depicted in novels/how she chooses her priesthood. As it was pointed out by crzyhawk, this could have been caused by the will of the designers of introducing a good drow goddess while not going too far from what was said about the race up to then and by a flavor matter. But even this flaw doesn't deprive Eilistraee's concept of the great potential it has. It should just be fixed, and restored.
At the end, her depiction in the novels doesn't fit her, a mother-goddess would never hate/deem less than worthy any of her children and would never give up in saving the ''lost souls'' to just give the VERY few that have already shattered their shackles something they don't need. That's one of the points of what I meant when I said in the previous post that she (and her brother) were treated like crap for the attitudes (and the stupid moves) they were unjustly given in those books (beside being removed from canon for NO reason).
Also, this thing should totally be gone if they restored her, which I don't believe is unlikely to happen. We'll see when this Menzo book comes out.
"Nope. I was asked to create a “good drow deity” for DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, pertaining to surface-dwelling drow, and I did, deciding to depict her as nurturing mother goddess worshipped through dancing nude under the moonlight (echoing British faery traditions, but seeking to make her seem not capricious, as the faeries are depicted, but non-warlike, non-violent except when protecting “her” mortals). Through her priestesses, Eilistraee aids her faithful in hunting and swordcraft as a way of helping them to survive and flourish in a hostile surface world. She’s not HERSELF depicted as any sort of a huntress; she’s the force that brings a stag into the reach of hungry drow, not the slayer-by-arrows of drow foes.
She can personally be an avenger or protectress, yes (an aspect strengthened in 3rd Edition, not by me), fearsomely wielding the sword she dances with, but owes more to the bard than the huntress.
So you’ve turned to a classical goddess depicted as the huntress, a peerless archer whose shafts never miss (or almost never miss, depending on the tale). This puzzles me; I certainly wouldn’t equate a benevolent nurturing (and fertility, though thanks to the TSR Code of Ethics you have to read between the lines to see this in DROW OF THE UNDERDARK and SILVERFALL, where I certainly wasn’t very subtle about it) goddess with the Queen of the Hunt, the virgin Greek goddess of chastity.
Let’s look more closely at Artemis. In her Roman derivation (Diana), it’s death to a mortal man to see her nude - - but he sees her bathing; she isn’t in that tradition depicted as normally racing about the forests bareskinned. (Some writers do depict all of the classical deities so, which probably has much to do with many of the real-life mortal cities of worshippers having few nudity taboos.) She’s the moon goddess, also goddess of childbirth, wild life, domestic animals, and infants (children just after they are born), as well as being goddess of flocks, and of the chase.
So there are a lot of possible portfolios here that someone TRYING to draw a parallel could catch onto, to try to make their case, but none of them really fit: I created Eilistraee as worshipped under the moon because that’s when she appears, NOT a moon goddess; her only connection to the moon was because drow (who had to stay in the dark to keep any power, in that edition of the D&D game) on the surface could see the moon but Underdark drow could not. Eilistraee has nothing to do with domestic animals or wild life, and her mothering is not of childbirth or the young, but of the WHOLE race (to sustain and strengthen them in their return to the surface). Eilistraee has nothing to do with flocks or the chase, is not virginal, and has nothing to do with chastity."
So, as you see, there is a discrepancy beteween how she is/wants to accomplish and how she is depicted in novels/how she chooses her priesthood. As it was pointed out by crzyhawk, this could have been caused by the will of the designers of introducing a good drow goddess while not going too far from what was said about the race up to then and by a flavor matter. But even this flaw doesn't deprive Eilistraee's concept of the great potential it has. It should just be fixed, and restored.
At the end, her depiction in the novels doesn't fit her, a mother-goddess would never hate/deem less than worthy any of her children and would never give up in saving the ''lost souls'' to just give the VERY few that have already shattered their shackles something they don't need. That's one of the points of what I meant when I said in the previous post that she (and her brother) were treated like crap for the attitudes (and the stupid moves) they were unjustly given in those books (beside being removed from canon for NO reason).
Also, this thing should totally be gone if they restored her, which I don't believe is unlikely to happen. We'll see when this Menzo book comes out.
I want Mystra back in a bad sort of way, and really want info on Shaundakul. The bright side of an Eilistraee return would be the end of all the tears over her demise, and that's something I could really get on board with. Grease the squeaky wheel!
And I think it was worth it because there are ''clues'' that lead me to think that those deities are being reconsidered.
Elistraee is very "emo" and that grates the nerves. She reminds me of Twilight and all that's wrong with modern fantasy. Please NO NOT get me started on veggie vamps that "sparkle" in the sunlight, because some teenage girls think that vampires are the coolest things ever. Just like vampires do not need to be good and they DEFINITELY do not need to sparkle, people who want to play surface drow shouldn't have some easy way out just picking the "I worship Eilistraee" option to make Drizzt clone #4,823. RP your way out. Write your own story as to why you fled the underdark, how you came to the surface, how you developed. Drizzt didn't need Eilistraee, he had a compelling story as to how he found Mielikki. My current drow, Rylden didn't need Eilistraee (he's not "good" either...just not evil) to decide there were better options. At the end of the day, Eilistraee is not /necessary/ for anything other then the easy way out.
Shanking Mystra has become their standard RSE. It's like, can't you come up with a different idea then killing the god of magic off? They killed her off once as Mystryl, once as Mystra, and once as Midnight. Seriously. Come up with a new idea. Please. Also, I have a really hard time believing that there is no god or goddess in charge of something as powerful as magic. I can't blame the people who complain about that. I hope that when they bring her back, it will be the awesome (neutral) Mystryl, not goody two-shoes meddling Mystra who sticks her fingers in places it's not warranted.
Helm, I never really liked. He got the short end of the stick though. What a lame way to go.
Shaundakul is really a nobody. I just think he's awesome. I don't really blame them for not writing much about him.
At the end of the day, I think they wanted to simplify the pantheons a bit and cut out the un-needed fluff. That's why Helm got whacked, that's why Tyr offed himself, and that's why the drow gods went down.
Why on earth have they /not/ killed Cyric yet? That's the one god I really want to see go down.
The Eilistraee lovers are just more vocal then the Helm fans and others. The only group that comes close (and lets face it, all things being equal, Eilistraee is pretty far down on the list of important deities) are the mystra fans, and frankly a lot of those cries of outrage are much different then the Eilistraee fanboys tears.
Elistraee is very "emo" and that grates the nerves. She reminds me of Twilight and all that's wrong with modern fantasy. Please NO NOT get me started on veggie vamps that "sparkle" in the sunlight, because some teenage girls think that vampires are the coolest things ever. Just like vampires do not need to be good and they DEFINITELY do not need to sparkle, people who want to play surface drow shouldn't have some easy way out just picking the "I worship Eilistraee" option to make Drizzt clone #4,823. RP your way out. Write your own story as to why you fled the underdark, how you came to the surface, how you developed. Drizzt didn't need Eilistraee, he had a compelling story as to how he found Mielikki. My current drow, Rylden didn't need Eilistraee (he's not "good" either...just not evil) to decide there were better options. At the end of the day, Eilistraee is not /necessary/ for anything other then the easy way out.
Shanking Mystra has become their standard RSE. It's like, can't you come up with a different idea then killing the god of magic off? They killed her off once as Mystryl, once as Mystra, and once as Midnight. Seriously. Come up with a new idea. Please. Also, I have a really hard time believing that there is no god or goddess in charge of something as powerful as magic. I can't blame the people who complain about that. I hope that when they bring her back, it will be the awesome (neutral) Mystryl, not goody two-shoes meddling Mystra who sticks her fingers in places it's not warranted.
Helm, I never really liked. He got the short end of the stick though. What a lame way to go.
Shaundakul is really a nobody. I just think he's awesome. I don't really blame them for not writing much about him.
At the end of the day, I think they wanted to simplify the pantheons a bit and cut out the un-needed fluff. That's why Helm got whacked, that's why Tyr offed himself, and that's why the drow gods went down.
Why on earth have they /not/ killed Cyric yet? That's the one god I really want to see go down.
Eilistraee has nothing to do with sucky sparkling vampires and is not emo at all. Quite the opposite. She encourages the drow to actually live an enjoyable life, without all the hate and ''for powah and evulz'' thingy. She promotes creation, free self-expression and fulfillment. How is that emo? If you're referring to the troubles some of the good drow have when they confront with what they have done, well that's not related to Eilistraee. Also, her followers are not angsty rebels Drizzt clones, and she is not a cheesy way to rp a good drow, since -if your DM knows about prejudice vs drow- Eilistraeens get the same amount of hatred, prejudice and hostility as any other drow. To be honest Lolthites strike me as a bit sadistic and emo, given their ever frustration and unreachable happines because they never get enough power.
She is way more than that, she is about freedom and helping the dark elves to live a normal life, where they should live. I talked about this before and won't repeat myself.
If you hate her, fine ofc, but the drow deities are not useless. As I said, they give flavor and depth to an otherwise boring and flat (to me) ''for powah and evulz'' race.
And no deity is actually /necessary/ (again, replace Lolth with some random deceiving indoctrinating tyrant demon and you have the thing) it's all about what they give to the setting, and Eilistraee's concept has potential. If you like the drow pantheon having only Lolth, you can ignore the others. Things are not so easy for the people who want to read further content about them and see how their story goes on but cannot get it.
Also, all the deties I listed im my previous post got the short-end of the stick, not just Helm. And, the drow pantheon, Tyr, the elven goddesses, Gruumsh (was he merged with Talos?) are not useless lore. And what surprises me is that some other deities, which I -personally- don't see as so relevant, were given attention (Loviatar and Auril spring to mind).
Btw, Shaundakul might be a nobody, but his portfolio of traveling and exploration makes him a commonly worshiped deity among adventurers. So it makes sense to drop a couple lines of lore about him.
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Eilsitraee is not emo at all. Quite the opposite. She encourages the drow to actually live an enjoyable life, without all the hate and ''for powah and evulz'' thingy. She promotes creation, free self-expression and fulfillment. How is that emo? If you're referring tho the troubles some of the good drow have when they confront with what they have done, well that's not related to Eilistraee. Also, her followers are not angsty rebels Drizzt clones, and she is not a cheesy way to rp a good drow, since Eilistraeens get the same amount of hatred, prejudice and hostility as any other drow.
She is way more than that, she is about freedom and help the dark elves to live a normal life, where they should live. I talked about this before and won't repeat myself.
If you hate her, fine ofc, but the drow deities are not useless. As I said, they give flavor and depth to an otherwise boring and flat ''for powah and evulz'' race.
And no deity is actually /necessary/ (again, replace Lolth with some random deceiving indoctrinating tyrant demon and you have the thing) it's all about what they give to the setting, and Eilistraee's concept has potential. If you like the drow pantheon having only Lolth, you can ignore the others. Things are not so easy for the people who want to read further content about them and see how their story goes on but cannot get it.
I'm referring to Eilistraee as emo in the fact that she's a crutch to people who want to play an evu|z0rz race, but not be evil, or put any thought into why they're different. It's a close parallel in my mind with the twilight vampires: Nobody really wants to be evil, but they want the cool fangs, immortality etc, but without the bad part.
I never said the drow deities were useless, I said they were un-necessary. I stand by that.
She's absolutely a cheesy way to RP a good drow. Rather then put some thought into WHY your drow is good and come up with a compelling story as to why you're different from your kindred, you select the Eilistraee option in the character builder, alignment good and you drive on with your bad self. Eilistraee is a crutch. I don't see any neat flavor or anything there...just an easy way out for playing a ub@r dr0wz.
Orc and half-orc heroes don't need a "good" god to crutch themselves by on. Duergar heroes don't need a "good" god to crutch themselves by on. They have to come up with compelling backstories. Why should people who want drow get to press the easy mode button?
EDIT: Fixed spelling
..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Eilsitraee is not emo at all. Quite the opposite. She encourages the drow to actually live an enjoyable life, without all the hate and ''for powah and evulz'' thingy. She promotes creation, free self-expression and fulfillment. How is that emo? If you're referring tho the troubles some of the good drow have when they confront with what they have done, well that's not related to Eilistraee. Also, her followers are not angsty rebels Drizzt clones, and she is not a cheesy way to rp a good drow, since Eilistraeens get the same amount of hatred, prejudice and hostility as any other drow.
She is way more than that, she is about freedom and help the dark elves to live a normal life, where they should live. I talked about this before and won't repeat myself.
If you hate her, fine ofc, but the drow deities are not useless. As I said, they give flavor and depth to an otherwise boring and flat ''for powah and evulz'' race.
And no deity is actually /necessary/ (again, replace Lolth with some random deceiving indoctrinating tyrant demon and you have the thing) it's all about what they give to the setting, and Eilistraee's concept has potential. If you like the drow pantheon having only Lolth, you can ignore the others. Things are not so easy for the people who want to read further content about them and see how their story goes on but cannot get it.
I'm referring to Eilistraee as emo in the fact that she's a crutch to people who want to play an evu|z0rz race, but not be evil, or put any thought into why they're different. It's a close parallel in my mind with the twilight vampires: Nobody really wants to be evil, but they want the cool fangs, immortality etc, but without the bad part.
I never said the drow deities were useless, I said they were un-necessary. I stand by that.
She's absolutely a cheesy way to RP a good drow. Rather then put some thought into WHY your drow is good and come up with a compelling story as to why you're different from your kindred, you select the Eilistraee option in the character builder, alignment good and you drive on with your bad self. Eilistraee is a crutch. I don't see any neat flavor or anything there...just an easy way out for playing a ub@r dr0wz.
Orc and half-orc heroes don't need a "good" god to crutch themselves by on. Duergar heroes don't need a "good" god to crutch themselves by on. They have to come up with compelling backstories. Why should people who want drow get to press the easy mode button?
EDIT: Fixed spelling
And again, no deity (well, very few) is actually necessary. And Eilistraee is not a crutch. If all the flavor I wrote about in the previous posts (which is pretty neat) is trash for you, well then you just don't like her, but that's a matter of preferences. She does indeed have depth, especially considering the whole story behind her.
I get your point, tho. However it is not Eilistraee that causes that. It's the DM. If someone wanted to pick Eilistraee as patron deity, he/she should write a good background about how his/her character received the message of the goddess, i.e. about how for the first time he/she felt the need to get away from Lolthite oppression. That is what you should do. I agree that if you want to play a drow saying ''he/she was born in the woods and raised by Eilistraeens'', well that's cheese. And not only drow worship Eilistraee (many elves do and even some humans do, in fact). I've never played drow (I'm more of an elf type) but many of my characters pay homages to the Dark Maiden because they realize how stupid is the matter their whole story is about. So, as you see, Eilistraee herself is in no way related to what you point out.
The Elves know her as Sehanine, the humans as Selune, and the drow as Eilistraee. The various groups might have different means of worship, but that's ok. of course, that's not how the old lore is written, and I abhor retcons, so it is what it is.
Honestly, there's nothing to say you can't still play your character as a follower of Eilistraee. Just because she's theoretically dead does not mean that the cults committed to her should have to stop. In fact, if they do, I'd say they are weak willed and never really committed to the cause anyway.
Think of it this way: Even though she's gone, would Eilistraee want your character to stop following her tenants? Would she want you to stop trying to redeem the remaining drow? Does she need to be there for her cause to be worthy? Of course not.
Eilistraee is a great deity. Again, you don't like her, but the way she was treated in those novels just... sucks. Her death was weak and did not mirror what her goal is (what I wrote in the first post of this page) and her portrayal was totally unfitting. She should be a symbol of the rebellion to the idiotic injustice committed on the Dark Elves (both Ilythiiri and Miyeritari) and of the hope of redemption, freedom and life for them. Instead she was depicted as a sexist b**** and a ''get Lolth'' kind of goddess. So you have this in addition to her loss. A pointless and horrible remotion of such a character.
If they bring back Eilistraee, then her story which I (and -afaik- many others) enjoy so much can continue. If they don't, it can't, I can't read anymore about her, beside letting me saddened and very disappointed with WotC because of how they handled the character. Why do they have to deprive so many people of a character they like when there is absolutely no need to do so (she is not redundant, for reasons I've already explained, no Mary Sue character -quite the contrary, tbh- and has good flavor, unique in the FR), only because some others hate her. That's just selfish.
I hate Lolth. She's boring, she's all about getting power and dominating others for no real purpose and indoctrinating people, convincing them that they have no intrinsical value beside their power. She does that all day long and that makes me puke. Her motivation for doing so can't go beyond ''for the sake of it''. However, I don't go around saying ''Lolth isn't needed at all, remove her and put some more interesting villain in her place''. Many people like her, and I'm not bothered in any way by this fact.
To you who don't care about Eilistraee it won't matter whether she's there or not, since you can easily ignore her. And I don't see why many people enjoying a renewed version of her should be a problem.
Also, they could bring her back as an Exarch, so that she can keep doing what she did without being actually too relevant, not pissing off any hater, not taking the spotlight, and not ruining the stereotype of the evil drow (being an underdog, a rebel barely known among the drow themselves and even less among other races).
As I said, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun make FR drow unique and give depth to an otherwise bland, homogenous race. Their flavor can't be replaced by any other deity (no Sehanine, no Selune, no Corellon, no Mask -for Vhaeraun- because of the reasons I explained many times) and I don't see ANY reason to keep streamlining the Realms by not taking them back. It'd really make me glad (for what it counts) to see brother and sister back in action, even as ''lowly'' archfey/exarchs. Luckily, it looks like it's not unprobable to happen.
PS: And think about it. People don't get so warmed up about the loss of a meaningless or trivial goddess. If they perceived her as a way to cheesy RP (sure, some want to. But I guess these ones would rather go Drizzt clone; and the DM has the final saying on that anyway), then they'd have no concern about her demise and her story being brutally interrupted, or about the way they got rid of her, which is clearly not the case.
only human lg paladins
only chaotic bards.
no elven bards