-It is my own hypothesis that Lolth was the reason why the spell affected all Dark Elves. The Ilythiiri had already embraced Lolth, Ghaunadaur, and other fell entities. Their expulsion into the Underdark would not give Lolth anything that she did not already have, except a "broken down" nation forced into the Underdark. But, by interfering with the ritual, and causing it to affect all Dark Elves, Lolth would net herself the entire Dark Elven race (more or less). Those who were turned into Drow for "no reason" would become resentful of the Surface Elves who did it to them. They would become jealous and angry. They would eventually come in contact with Drow who had once been from Ilythiir, who worshiped Lolth. These Drow would tell them of Lolth, who had been the only one to stand with the Dark-Elven-now-Drow people when the Seldarine turned their backs on them. And thus, Lolth has ensnared the entire Drow race in her web of lies and intrigue.
Hm.. Racism in the realms. Never as simple as name calling.
Not this again
-The High Magic ritual was cast specifically with the Ilythiiri in mind, but for reasons that we don't know, it affected all Dark Elves. I, personally, believe that when the spell was cast, it was supposed to affect only the Ilythiiri. It is extremely likely that Dark Elves lived in Aryvandaar, let's say, who were fighting on behalf of their country, Aryvandaar, against Ilythiir, Aryvandaar's enemy. Or in Illefarn, which was neutral for most of the Fourth Crown War. Why would the Elven Selu'Taar of Illefarn target these Dark Elves, Elves who were either fighting against Ilythiir, or Elves who were totally uninvolved in the fighting?
-It is my own hypothesis that Lolth was the reason why the spell affected all Dark Elves. The Ilythiiri had already embraced Lolth, Ghaunadaur, and other fell entities. Their expulsion into the Underdark would not give Lolth anything that she did not already have, except a "broken down" nation forced into the Underdark. But, by interfering with the ritual, and causing it to affect all Dark Elves, Lolth would net herself the entire Dark Elven race (more or less). Those who were turned into Drow for "no reason" would become resentful of the Surface Elves who did it to them. They would become jealous and angry. They would eventually come in contact with Drow who had once been from Ilythiir, who worshiped Lolth. These Drow would tell them of Lolth, who had been the only one to stand with the Dark-Elven-now-Drow people when the Seldarine turned their backs on them. And thus, Lolth has ensnared the entire Drow race in her web of lies and intrigue.
Well, that hypothesis is good. And I think it's true too.
Regards,
AryaNightingale
I would not be surprised if Corellon regretted ever being part of the power that cursed the illythiri as a whole.
-Technically, he doesn't have to be. Elven High Magic is Epic Magic, and as per the rules of Epic Magic, spellcasters can just cast it. It isn't granted or anything. It's established in lore that Corellon Larethian "grants" Elven High Magic, but since that's not actually how the magic systems works in 3e, I see this as being more of approval, "signing off" on the casting of Elven High Magic by Selu'Taar.
I'd go more with the idea that it was actually intentional on Aryvandaar's part, in an attempt to deflect from the atrocities that they committed during the wars, and doing their best to lay the 'blame' on the feet of the Seldarine. Considering their hidden part in unleashing the Killing Storm, I certainly wouldn't put it past them anyway.
-Aryvandaar might not have even known about the priests, priestess' and Selu'Taar gathering to cast the spell. It was Illefarn that cast it, not Aryvandaar.
-It is my own hypothesis that Lolth was the reason why the spell affected all Dark Elves. The Ilythiiri had already embraced Lolth, Ghaunadaur, and other fell entities. Their expulsion into the Underdark would not give Lolth anything that she did not already have, except a "broken down" nation forced into the Underdark. But, by interfering with the ritual, and causing it to affect all Dark Elves, Lolth would net herself the entire Dark Elven race (more or less). Those who were turned into Drow for "no reason" would become resentful of the Surface Elves who did it to them. They would become jealous and angry. They would eventually come in contact with Drow who had once been from Ilythiir, who worshiped Lolth. These Drow would tell them of Lolth, who had been the only one to stand with the Dark-Elven-now-Drow people when the Seldarine turned their backs on them. And thus, Lolth has ensnared the entire Drow race in her web of lies and intrigue.
Ooooo...I like this a lot.
I'd go more with the idea that it was actually intentional on Aryvandaar's part, in an attempt to deflect from the atrocities that they committed during the wars, and doing their best to lay the 'blame' on the feet of the Seldarine. Considering their hidden part in unleashing the Killing Storm, I certainly wouldn't put it past them anyway.
Ooooo.....and this. Aryvandaar/Ilefarn aside, the idea that some of the casters were self-righteous or vindictive or uncaring is a nice complication.
PS (What was the Killing Storm?)
PS (What was the Killing Storm?)
-The spell cast by Aryvandaar's High magi (in secret) that blasted Miyeritar into nothingness and created the High Moor.
-The spell cast by Aryvandaar's High magi (in secret) that blasted Miyeritar into nothingness and created the High Moor.
If the Illythiiri were the bad ones then why did Aryvandaar blast the Miyeritari? Just other Crown Wars stuff? If that's got too long of an answer just point me elsewhere I guess. (The Elven Netbook perhaps.
)If the Illythiiri were the bad ones then why did Aryvandaar blast the Miyeritari? Just other Crown Wars stuff?
Jup. The Aryvandaar, at that time known as Vyshaantar, caused the First Crown Wars. They claimed some ancestry stuff to the ruling house of Miyeritar, to get their country. The Miyeritar resisted and after some minor political problems and intrigues, they clashed in a full grown war. Aryvandaar invaded Miyeritar and that was the start of all (or most) of the trouble.
Miyritari resisted with guerrilla tactics and the help of the elves of Illefarn. Ilythiiri took that as a reason to attack other elven empires, who were more or less allies of Vyshaantar and that started the Secon Crown War. During this time Vyshaantari got the help of the fallen solar Malkizid, so they are also not the nice guys. And some times later, the socalled Dark Disaster happened and those killing storms, mentioned above, destroyed what was left of Miyeritar.
If you want to read more, take a look at this:
Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves (zip/pdf file: 6.04mb)
If the Illythiiri were the bad ones then why did Aryvandaar blast the Miyeritari? Just other Crown Wars stuff? If that's got too long of an answer just point me elsewhere I guess. (The Elven Netbook perhaps.
-When the United States had problems with the Soviet Union, why didn't it just directly "blow up" the U.S.S.R., and not go to places like North Korea, or South Vietnam, and "blow up" the enemies there?
-Politics!
-Aryvandaar was sore at Miyeritar, and was "punishing" them specifically. Ilythiir got angry that (they believed, and ultimately were correct) Aryvandaar did this to Miyeritar, who the Ilythiiri liked because they were also Dark Elves.
Some food for thought: maybe Lolth was not directly corrupting the dark elves, but just took the opportunity to snatch them and it was someone else behind the entire ordeal? Maybe Malkizid, for the sake of having vengeance on Lolth and Corellon, decided to stir the pot in order to see their children fight each other?
Regards,
AryaNightingale
As in, the Ilythiiri were by far not the only evil- or wrong-doers at the time, they just did their own way of warfare. Politics, as someone said above.
*Actually, it were the designers, but don't tell anyone!
Well, Dark Disaster may have been caused by Aryvandaar, but in the end Ilythiir got all the blame.
I was distinctly under the impression that the fate of the Drow was up to a convened council that was made up of several elven nations, and that the spell was cast by a coalition of them as well. Page 55 of LEoF fairly strongly implies that it was a group effort in the last paragraph on the page. Hence, I don't think its unreasonable to conclude that the Aryvandaarans sabotaged the effort, considering they had some of the most powerful High Mages around, at least some of whom were probably involved with the Dark Disaster as well.
-Hence the "...might not have even known about..." part.
A piece of Deus Ex Machina in order for there to be less Drow Elves of non-evil alignment so Drizzt didnt lose his "uniqueness".
Thankfully in my games, my fellow players and I know exactly what to do with garbage:
We throw it in the trash and forget we ever knew about it.
Wendonai was crap anyway.
A piece of Deus Ex Machina in order for there to be less Drow Elves of non-evil alignment so Drizzt didnt lose his "uniqueness".
Yeah because there were so many good drow before we heard of wendonai
Wendonai was crap anyway.
A piece of Deus Ex Machina in order for there to be less Drow Elves of non-evil alignment so Drizzt didnt lose his "uniqueness".
Thankfully in my games, my fellow players and I know exactly what to do with garbage:
We throw it in the trash and forget we ever knew about it.
You lost me just after "anyway". What has Wendonai to do with good drow, Drizzt or a deus-ex-machina?
Ed, however, portrayed his 'Subterranean Elves' as being Albinos - which makes far more sense from a scientific point of view.
TSR chose to retcon Ed's Under-Elves to be more like traditional D&D Dark Elves, and Gary's Drow were shoe-horned into the Realms (from Greyhawk).
Personally I wish they had kept them distinct and seperate, because having them the same creates a rather large lore-conundrum - how is it that the 'Descent Curse' cast within Relmspace effected every single dark Elf in the multiverse?
Besides, FR Drow act very diffrently then the Drow in GH - those are TRUE Drow, and you'll never find a Drizzt or Liriel amongst them.
Yeah because there were so many good drow before we heard of wendonai
The lack of evidence is NOT evidence to the contrary.
ALL pre-arrival (of the 'High' Elves) lore regarding the Dark Elves indicates that they got along well with the Wood (Sylvan) Elves, and that the two lived together in peace.
To further that point, a group of Dark Elves - the Miyeritari - formed a Kingdom composed of themselves and Green Elves - a Kingdom the haughty - and vain - High (Eladrin) Elves simply could not stand to allow to exist.
Dark Elves were victims of their environment and circumstance - the only way they could combat the evil Gold Elves from wiping them out en-mass was to except the help of 'Dark Powers'.
The Elves drove them to it, and then condemned them for it.
ALL pre-arrival (of the 'High' Elves) lore regarding the Dark Elves indicates that they got along well with the Wood (Sylvan) Elves, and that the two lived together in peace.
-No it doesn't. It says the complete opposite. The Dark Elves of Atorrnash enslaved the Wood ("Wild") Elves. The nations of Sharlarian (later Aryvandaar) and Occidian lived amongst and with the Wood ("Wild") Elves. Among the weavers of The Sundering were Sun Elves, Moon Elves, and Wood ("Wild") Elves. No Dark Elves, because the Dark Elves did not get along peacefully with any of the three.
To further that point, a group of Dark Elves - the Miyeritari - formed a Kingdom composed of themselves and Green Elves - a Kingdom the haughty - and vain - High (Eladrin) Elves simply could not stand to allow to exist.
-In -14,700 DR, Coronal Ivósaar Vyshaan and his advisers contacted Miyeritar about diplomatically and peacefully annexating Miyeritar, citing familial connections between the two nations (ie, the Elves who left Aryvandaar to found Miyeritar were subject to the Coronal of Aryvandaar) as the reason why Miyeritar should have been folded into Aryvandaar.
After all, it talks about some silly thing called 'The Spellplague", and we all know that didn't happen. :D
No... if you look at MY copy of the GHotR you will see the truth of the matter - I've 'corrected' the entire tome. :P
Ka'Narlist was a nobody and insignificant - no matter what you personally care to make-up about him.
He was barely a footnote.
Those entries in the GHotR were made-up for that book, and should be disregarded at all costs.
All PREVIOUS (and correct) canon lore says otherwise.
Propaganda, I tell you!
Propaganda!
Elaine was right! All else is a lie! Hallelujah!
Elaine made-up Ka'Narlist, ergo her take MUST be the correct one - he was just some VERY powerful Dark-Elven Wizard who was obviously an outcast from his own people (because he actually lived just outside the lands considered to be Illythiiri).
He was no king, except in his own mind. This was just a poor attempt by some designer to further besmirch all of Elaine's creations.
-We've had this discussion before. Let me go and try to find that thread. Hold on...Damn, I can't find it. It got flushed out of my subscribed threads when WotC was having those problems over the summer. Maybe you still have it? The title was about the War of Three Leaves.
And I know where the Bay of the Banshee was - you can see it on the map in the GHotR.
Those Moon Elves hadn't entered into the Illythiiri lands yet when they had that discussion with that goddesss (I can't remember which one). They were coming from THE NORTH, ergo Ka'Narlist's city was located on the very NE fringe of the Illythiiri lands.
Unless you think those Elves teleported a thousand miles or so... which it doesn't say they did in the novel.
Geography proves me correct, and the GHotR incorrect. Obviously that must be the history of the world after the Sundering changed things (or was it before? Now I'm confusing myself...)
Edit: While I do agree there was a period of time in which Lolth took-in Ka'Narlist as 'her pet', and that is perhaps when he became King, and Attornash made the capital... but the city would have still been on the very edge of the Illythiiri lands at the time that Moonflower (Nm?) and his kid ran into him. At a later point, the Illythiiri lands do seem to have expanded (due to conquest), and perhaps Attornash later had a more centralized location wiothin their Empire.
Yes, I remeber the thread...
-Do you have it in your subscribed threads listing? Like I said, mine is gone, and I did a search for it, but I couldn't find it.
...and it proved nothing... until that dreadful GHotR entry came-up... which I INSIST is incorrect.
-Let's restart it, then. I'll make the thread, and forward the debate there.