Personally I like to think that she only lost her deity status, living on as an archfey in the Feywild.Technically she died in 3rd-Edition
Thankyou for providing me a nice neat way to also save Sehanine. Hanali Celanil and Aerdrie Faeyna, should I ever run the Realms. Facing either battle and/or a threat to their worshippers they slipped into the shadows and are already planning their return! ;)
Cheers!
Cheers.
Technically she died in 3rd-Edition
You are my hero, Brian. I don't know why I never thought of that...
I honestly never got the sense of "finality" from her death scenes anyway...just seemed too strange, especially since the weapon that killed her was one of her own making.
Technically she died in 3rd-Edition
Thats a great idea.
Ignore the official lore...in a world based on a game that is basically a game of "let's pretend", there is absolutely no reason to follow someone else's imagination... unless you lack your own. ;)
As far as I'm concerned, Lady Penitent was nothing more then a pack of lies - crappy propaganda released by the church of Lolth to convnce all the 'wayward' drow to come back to her.
My point is that, unlike other seldarine who just have not been mentioned yet in 4e, Eilistraee had a deathscene at the end of 3.5
There, now it's just Lolth, the Slimester, and a more concentrated population of evil drow. Back to basics.
Technically she died in 3rd-Edition
make it so- Capt. Jean-Luc Picard
All, thanks for the info. Thought that was the case since I did not see anything in print about her!
Cheers.
Just in case, the story of her decline and the loss of The Promenade is told in the Lady Penitent novel series by Lisa Smedman. The novels as such are fine, the story which is told (and how) ain't. While we are at it, Selvetarm, Vhaeraun and Kiaransalee all bit the bullet too, thus smoothing the drow pantheon to the simplistic version as described in the late 3,5E's Core Drow of the Underdark. As has been said, much like the end of Mask, her death was pretty special and thus final, so by default it would be hard to retcon her back into Realmspace going by the current rules et al. Going by the outcry that her decline caused, her "death as a deity" might still not be as final as some would hope. Then again, WotC turned the Realms and D&D upside down with 4E and I doubt that they'll harken the outcry this caused.
My point is that, unlike other seldarine who just have not been mentioned yet in 4e, Eilistraee had a deathscene at the end of 3.5
Right.
We also saw both Mystra and Bane die during the ToT... whats your point? ;)
Moander's come back multiple times, and other gods have 'come and gone' many times, including recently Waukeen, who was missing for quite awhile, along with Aumanator who has re-emerged in 4e.
Even Myrkul yet lives, stuck in that crown...
Death for gods does not mean the same thing as it does for mortals (and not even for mortals, in a D&D setting)... its just a 'temporary setback' in most cases.
all I saw was feign death, then poof dear old daddy appeared
dev 1 "okay we are keeping lolth and taking everything in the realms back to basics, what other deity whould we keep alive? Selvetarm, Vhaeraun and Kiaransalee have to go, they outshadow lolth in the 'coolness' aspect. "
dev 2 "that leaves Eilistraee, should we keep her?"
dev 3 " no wai! drow should be eevilz k thx bai!!!11lolzz" drizzit should be the only good drowz in fiction, otherwise hes not unique and leetz hax skillzzz ftw"
dev 2 "thats right he won't be the only one, we got two ways to do this then, we can do this subtle and maybe salvage the fans who-"
dev 3 "noobz! we nuke the place hahahahszlolz! we makee the whole place explode. no! a plague we make everyone sick!... -wait both we do both.! ka-bboom! lets!!! that way we make a clean slate to put in dranie- erm i mean dragon born. "
dev 4 " uh guys i don't think this is the - "
dev 1, pointing at 4 " your fired. pack your crap and get outta here"
dev 2 "so, um, is Eilistraee is dead?"
dev 1 "well keep slimer, i like his name. and we will never mention 'her' name again!"
yeah lets find dev 3
Then I thought about making the 'script' into a video - my kid has this really cool mask of Davy Jones from PotC (tentacles and all!) that I was going to use for Bruce Cordell, and just have him froth and scream "Cthulhu!" anytime anyone asked him a question.
I had other concepts (and masks) for the rest, but then I decided it was way too much work for a joke... but it lives on in my imagination, and still gives me a chuckle every now and then (especially whenever I see that tentacled mask).
Then I thought about making the 'script' into a video - my kid has this really cool mask of Davy Jones from PotC (tentacles and all!) that I was going to use for Bruce Cordell, and just have him froth and scream "Cthulhu!" anytime anyone asked him a question.
Nice idea, MT. I played Call of Cthulu for the first time last week. An interesting system. Seems to be about 90% investigating so you have an in-game reason for the action you already know you need to take... and then 10% "Ahhhh! It's a monster"... Player Death... Player Death.... Player Death... Player Insane.... Player Death. It has to be the first game that I considered fainting through terror and taking almost no part in the final encounter a lucky occurance.
Wow, ILL never see Davy Jones The same way again
was going to make a monkees reference, but it was lame =]
Funny stuff - I was going to post something along those lines myself way back when, but #4 was "The Janitor" who was emptying a waste can and the only voice of reason in the room. :D
Then I thought about making the 'script' into a video - my kid has this really cool mask of Davy Jones from PotC (tentacles and all!) that I was going to use for Bruce Cordell, and just have him froth and scream "Cthulhu!" anytime anyone asked him a question.
I had other concepts (and masks) for the rest, but then I decided it was way too much work for a joke... but it lives on in my imagination, and still gives me a chuckle every now and then (especially whenever I see that tentacled mask).
LMAO i want to do somthing like that, maybe edit many video conference vids of people in this post, posing as various devs and personalities of the game in many masks or cuts from cartoons. got an idea for dev 3, who shall remain unnamed, a pic of a bald nekked gnome from wow dancing.
-Eilistraee wasn't killed with "a stick", lucky for her.
no, she just got spanked.....
I hate how authors portray gods in the Forgotten Realms. They're all supposed to be tremendously intelligent, but they act so dumb it makes me want to cry.
Eilistrae was my favorite goddess in the Realms, most of the clerics I played were clerics of Eilistrae, but seriously, her stunt possessing Qilué was so stupid and useless that I almost cheered when she got killed.
I hate how authors portray gods in the Forgotten Realms. They're all supposed to be tremendously intelligent, but they act so dumb it makes me want to cry.
i have a theory that this is something to do with an author deficiency.
i havn't figured out how or why they combine the dumbest actions a mentally defeated human, that was drooling on exposed electric work would know better then not to do, vs the lame "knowing look" or otherwise lame "hearth wisdom" which of course most of the time has nothing to do with the situation other then a broadly vague "answer" to why they chose to do the stupidest thing they possiblly could. and its not just these books though this line of forgotten realms books do it more often then others.
i could name three that did it all the freakin time. everyone in the imperian oddesy, every drow written by RAS, and every god in the avatar trilogy at some point acted as if they knew somthing somone else didn't, and it was painfully obvious that they were wrong.
did you see a body??
all I saw was feign death, then poof dear old daddy appeared
It is actually quite explicitly told at the end of Ascendency of the Last. Breaking umpteen standing game rules along the way, but both the priestesses as well as the angels taking the soul of Cavatina (?) "home" definitely say that she was gone. And at least the latter would know.
As has been said before: nothing that can't be undone by a fanciful story in an upcoming book. Possibly to save the designers et al from loosing even more readers and players.
It is actually quite explicitly told at the end of Ascendency of the Last. Breaking umpteen standing game rules along the way, but both the priestesses as well as the angels taking the soul of Cavatina (?) "home" definitely say that she was gone. And at least the latter would know.
As has been said before: nothing that can't be undone by a fanciful story in an upcoming book. Possibly to save the designers et al from loosing even more readers and players.
I haven't read the novels, only what I could find about them on the internet (I have no intention of paying for the killing of my favourite goddess), but wouldn't it be possible that Qilué, Eilistraee and Halisstra are stuck together in the Crescent Blade?
Well, my whole point was that the crescent blade didn't exactly work as intended at that final confrontation, being that Cavatina still had a soul that could go to the afterlife, rather than having it be destroyed. So...leaves things a bit open.
There are more inconsistencies with that blade. In the War of Spider Queen we were told that the CSB got it's power to cut through almost everything and by the way also gods from Eilistraee itself. Then it got lost in the realm of Lolth and was broken (something that could only happen if Eilistraee fueled it no longer with her "blessings", so she must have known that the blade no longer hold any powers).
In the LP series the blade came back, surprise, surprise. But now it was redone and later we came to know that it was possessed by the demon Wendonai (who fueled it now, instead of Eilistraee with the powers, but it is quite funny that the goddess seemed not to know it, one would think that gods had more brain than mortals).
The problem with that is, if a demon uses his ability to ride or possess something or someone, his body will sleep in the Abyss. Wendonai did not sleep, he even was walking around there in persona and was killed in the Abyss (what would destroy even a demon once and for all). But he survived because his soul was still in the blade (huh?
). Nothing of that goes with the rules of the game, but who cares? The illogical part is, that Eilistraee seemed not to realize who was fueling her sword but at the end she should have known, that it was no longer her weapon, and if she still fueled it, than she just could have withdrawn her blessing from it at the moment the LP tried to cut her neck, so that it would be an ordinary sword. I mean if she had known that Wendonai or some other power was in the blade, why did she not tell it her priestesses, esp. Qilué at the moment the LP came to them and told them that the blade was still in the realm of Lolth. That would have spared them some big trouble and maybe they would not have run blind into the trap Lolth had put in place for them.
i then saw ( way back in the day) that they killed off eilistraee in the trilogy which was already again bought, because i never thought in any logical way that they would be rid of such a popular goddess. during the search for more info i bumped into a interview from either a fansite or somthing in which the author received the "order to kill" from the devs/editors but she herself worked some loophole for those fans to make it all good. but nothing is concrete. basically its one of those "interpitation" endings, if you want her dead shes dead sort of thing.
somehow it didn't make things better for me, it made things worse. 3 things made her my fave elf god.
1 she is the underdog. a lesser goddess in a drow pantheon that hated her.
2 she is the most "fey" of all the elf gods.
3 unlike most "fey" female gods she was the only one that didn't seem to cop out to an anti sex/virgin females need apply sort of lame-ness
im also kinda miffed she got no lip service from the new forgotten realms article introducing old gods as exarks. a perfect oppertunity to make a start to the fans to make amends.
clearly she is one of the top 3 reasons i gave up on the realms for 4th.
1 spell plague is a lame dues ex machina/retcon.
2 eilistraee and other gods are dead to fill a qouta of simplification. is killing mystra when starting a new edition, similar to the same tradition of knocking a perfectly good wine bottle on a ships hull to cristen it? seriously wth???
3 while its perfectly acceptible in art to have a minimalist fashion, it doesn't help in the least with world building.
my rant for the morning.
i have a theory that this is something to do with an author deficiency.
I don't even think it's the fault of the author. Likely the WotC bosses told her "Write three books, slay a deity in each of them" and it's not easy to come up with a well thought out story in merely one book per deicide
Whats worse is the supposed disappearance of her clergy. It seems they have given up on the remaining drow. I find it unlikely Corellon would not sponsor the last remaining organisation capable of shaping drow society from within.
Besides, I think without Eilistraee herself as the "light at the end of the tunnel" so to speak, it throws another wrench into the gears. A drow would probably have less of a chance of converting to Corellon than Eilistraee.
-"Author deficiency" seems a bit strong, because, from a technical standpoint, there's nothing wrong with Lida Smedman's books. I would, however, definitley agree with the idea that there's a bit of deficiency in the amount and/or depth of research that was done in regards to the writing of this novel series. It's hard, sure, when there's a lot of information, and topics that have been covered by plenty of different authors and designers over the years, but that's no "excuse"- especially for someone who is contracted by WotC to write, and as such, has access to WotC people.
edit cut what i said, edit paste what you said,:D
i still didn't enjoy the books as such for content and didn't / don't have the ability to distinguish between the the actual writing vs content, and for me personally in the future of buying books, im staying away from this author.
I don't even think it's the fault of the author. Likely the WotC bosses told her "Write three books, slay a deity in each of them" and it's not easy to come up with a well thought out story in merely one book per deicide
understood and in complete agreement with you. wasn't exactly talk aabout this particular author tho she does fit that exact example in the third book of the trilogy.
although doing her job, she will still for the most part come up with consequences ... cops who give you a ticket are still just doing thier job, but the cop would be kidding himself if he didn't think 50 out of 55 people are cursing him out over it.
Aside form the deicide, the trilogy also introduced dark elves, faezress addiction, and demonic corruption of drow. All three concepts suck and should've never been brought up.
-Dark Elves have existed since Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves and Evermeet: Island of the Elves.
Aside form the deicide, the trilogy also introduced dark elves, faezress addiction, and demonic corruption of drow. All three concepts suck and should've never been brought up.
Demonic corruption is more something ideologically than physically, of course. Not even the boastful Wendonai could have done much to the bloodlines of the drow and if so, would have created loads of half-fiend or tiefling drow ... and we have heard none of those for the last 30odd years - for a reason.
-Dark Elves have existed since Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves and Evermeet: Island of the Elves.
I know that and that does not contradict my point.
Demonic corruption is more something ideologically than physically, of course. Not even the boastful Wendonai could have done much to the bloodlines of the drow and if so, would have created loads of half-fiend or tiefling drow ... and we have heard none of those for the last 30odd years - for a reason.
It was suggested to be something more physical than that, as I recalled from LP's series. But then again, do recall my point in the other thread. It could yet be another instance of author negligence or rule violation. In either case, a retcon can very easily correct the inconsistency.
If I were to use the plot from LP (and I NEVER will!), I might spin it in such a way that a piece of Eilistraee was preserved within Qilue (much as Mystra was preserved within Midnight). Then, after the LP series, Selune steps in and 'sets-off' a divine chain-reaction in Qilue, allowing Eilistraee to be reborn as an Exarch (demi-power) of Selune's.
We have two 'uber-baddies' in Lolth and Shar, and we need some sort of counter-point. The new setting (or rather, end of the old setting) did away with too many of the 'good' deities. If we add Auril - who is now also the Queen of Air and Darkness - into the mix, we have a triumverate of divine female evil without any sort of counter-balance to them.
Selune's pretty-much alone now, standing against the darkness that those three are trying to bring.
I know that and that does not contradict my point.
-The last novel introduced Dark Elves as characters in that trilogy, but it didn't introduce the concept into the setting.
-The last novel introduced Dark Elves as characters in that trilogy, but it didn't introduce the concept into the setting.
It reintroduced the concept and still doesn't contradict the fact that it sucks.
It reintroduced the concept...
THAT should have been 4eFR's "catch phrase".
"Nothing NEW to see here folks... move along..." :P
The problem is probably moot anyway, I can't WotC asking Elaine to come back to write it (although they should try their damndest get her back to write more 14th century FR stories).
seriously, her stunt possessing Qilué was so stupid and useless that I almost cheered when she got killed.
Yea, same here. I don't have anything against Eilistraee but I remember when I got to the part where she died I almost chuckled and thought "Serves you right you gullible fool". I was actually happy that she died. Such naiveté (is that how its spelled?) should never go unpunished.
Elaine could have done it with applumb... until Smedman screwed the pooch (or jumped the shark... or did something else vile with an animal).
The problem with the new setting isn't the stroylines - its that they are all being told by THE WRONG PEOPLE!
Why are hacks re-writing FR?
Yea, same here. I don't have anything against Eilistraee but I remember when I got to the part where she died I almost chuckled and thought "Serves you right you gullible fool". I was actually happy that she died. Such naiveté (is that how its spelled?) should never go unpunished.
The problem is just that she made this mistake for absolutely no other reason than being able to be killed off for it. So I don't think there's any reason to be happy. Give any writer a character with the order to kill him and you will get something more or less like that.
The problem is just that she made this mistake for absolutely no other reason than being able to be killed off for it. So I don't think there's any reason to be happy. Give any writer a character with the order to kill him and you will get something more or less like that.
The Faerunian Gods have the intelligence of an egg in a bucket, so it's fitting perfectly in character with their general level of intelligence from the other books. Actually, they kind of remind me of the Greek Gods who in some cases made some pretty silly decisions that got them killed.
Well, I'm sorry you think it sucked so much. I, for one, while not exactly happy with the execution, enjoyed the concept of the redeemed dark elves. It was something I'd been working toward in a concept for a story that I had wanted to write, but seeing as it happened already there's no real reason to now
-Ugh, it is certainly something I could have done without. Why exactly do the Dark Elves need to be "redeemed"? What do they need redemption from, exactly? That whole redemption thing is something that completely came from left field. Transformation back from Drow into Dark Elves makes sense. Fine, okay, and interesting concept, turning some Drow back into Dark Elves. Needing a random redemption for something that no current living Drow has ever done (ie, being born with "original sin") makes a lot less sense, and the entire trope is pretty foreign to the setting, in general. When did Eilistraee become Jesus?
When did Eilistraee become Jesus?
All she needs is to be resurrected for that to happen...
The Faerunian Gods have the intelligence of an egg in a bucket, so it's fitting perfectly in character with their general level of intelligence from the other books. Actually, they kind of remind me of the Greek Gods who in some cases made some pretty silly decisions that got them killed.
No they have not. The real problem is that the authors were asked and agreed to write novels about FR deities in a Greek/Roman-style, mortal-like way. This was bound to be a failure and it more often than not worked out like that. There are things that should not be meddled with ... and I for one dread to start reading Empyrean Odyssey III, but I have to, since I write a revision of it.
NB: LK, since you likened Eilistraee to Jesus, more recently I came across The Orc King and found a sentence in there which was IMHO a quite depressing read - not least with all this redemption stuff going on in the LP series:
Sayest Drizzt near the end of the book:
„Deeper inside, it is my prayer that King Obould Many-Arrows sees the dwarves standing higher on the ladder in pursuit of true civilization, that he sees Mithral Hall as a shining city on the hill*, and that he will have the strength to tame the orcs enough for them to scale the rungs of the same ladder.”
The Faerunian Gods have the intelligence of an egg in a bucket, so it's fitting perfectly in character with their general level of intelligence from the other books. Actually, they kind of remind me of the Greek Gods who in some cases made some pretty silly decisions that got them killed.
Eilistraee, Int 29, Wis 24.
Helm, Int 24, Wis 40.
Mystra, Int 45, Wis 40.
Tyr, Int 35, Wis 40.
The problem is that they are chess pieces for authors that have no idea how such a being would think and because of that they end up dumber than a human with int and wis 10. That's in no way a fault of the gods or of their concepts.
@ Lord Karsus
Well, it's a 4E retcon of course. Just like Aasimar => Deva etc. They even did it consequently. The drow epic destiny allows them to be reborn untainted as pinkskin. Where other good characters become immortal or at least get into a paradise, a drow has to start from the beginning. And what happens to all those poor souls who never reach epic tier? It really has to be a dreadful crime to be born as a drow.
@ Zanan
I didn't know it was possible, but now I hate Drizzt even more...... Up to now he was a bland, uninteresting character who had to motivation to be good except being seemingly born that way. Now he's also an elitist *******. One million druids and rangers cry out in pain.
Eilistraee, Int 29, Wis 24.
Helm, Int 24, Wis 40.
Mystra, Int 45, Wis 40.
Tyr, Int 35, Wis 40.
Do you think Mystra with Int 45 apparently would have ever been dumb enough to get killed by Cyric? Because it's their actions that show their stupidity on the whole; not their stats. Not to mention the often illogical and contradictory ways they act. I know how I would like the Gods to act myself: completely divorced from books entirely is something I would love. Let them be completely unknowable entities with immense power and not a bunch of bumbling fools. When they do get involved in something, the crap has really hit the fan and a lot of people are in a big amount of trouble.
Also, the Gods being stupid has been occurring well before 4E ever existed and has been happening since the Time of Troubles IMO. 4E is probably equalling the ToT in terms of Gods gone wild.
Also LK: If you ask most Christians you've missed the entire point of Jesus being the Son of God. It wasn't that he died for us; it was that he died and rose again from the dead. The whole "rising from the dead part" is not an insignificant part of Jesus as a divine figure. It's actually rather essential, hence my comment. Minding if she does manage to resurrect herself somehow I can fully understand the comparison. A lot of other people sacrificed themselves for things they believed in after all :P
-Ugh, it is certainly something I could have done without. Why exactly do the Dark Elves need to be "redeemed"? What do they need redemption from, exactly? That whole redemption thing is something that completely came from left field. Transformation back from Drow into Dark Elves makes sense. Fine, okay, and interesting concept, turning some Drow back into Dark Elves. Needing a random redemption for something that no current living Drow has ever done (ie, being born with "original sin") makes a lot less sense, and the entire trope is pretty foreign to the setting, in general. When did Eilistraee become Jesus?
I agree. The concept of "redeemed" dark elves is lame. Until the Lady Penitent trilogy, there was no indication of any physical corruption in the drow race. At the same time, this very concept has already been covered by Eilistraee's little dancing movement.
Do you think Mystra with Int 45 apparently would have ever been dumb enough to get killed by Cyric? Because it's their actions that show their stupidity on the whole; not their stats. Not to mention the often illogical and contradictory ways they act. I know how I would like the Gods to act myself: completely divorced from books entirely is something I would love. Let them be completely unknowable entities with immense power and not a bunch of bumbling fools. When they do get involved in something, the crap has really hit the fan and a lot of people are in a big amount of trouble.
-It hearkens back to the concept in D&D where, at some point, some attribute of the character eclipses that of the actual player- your situations where you have 'stupid people' playing Wizard characters that have Intelligences of 20+, making the character a great deal smarter than the average person, but not the player.
Also LK: If you ask most Christians you've missed the entire point of Jesus being the Son of God. It wasn't that he died for us; it was that he died and rose again from the dead. The whole "rising from the dead part" is not an insignificant part of Jesus as a divine figure. It's actually rather essential, hence my comment. Minding if she does manage to resurrect herself somehow I can fully understand the comparison. A lot of other people sacrificed themselves for things they believed in after all :P
-Let's be careful to "toe the line", being that religion is against the CoC (Connect it to the topic).
-During the Vatican II convention, Pope John XXIII wrote a treatise entitled "Inde a primis", in which the blood of Jesus was specifically addressed, and Catholic dogma was fundamentally altered. According to the Pope, Jesus' suffering as a Human being was "personified" in the shedding of his blood, and his Human passion assumed a greater consequence than his resurrection, in that G-d personified itself as a mortal man- it was his physical sacrifice (being beaten, stabbed, crucified, and eventually dying) that he made that "saved" people, not his returning to life after three days. A very interesting topic.
-Concerning Eilistraee, had she not died, and the Dark Elves became "saved" on their own, without her death- something that was certainly very possible, given that it was primarily Q'whatever that was behind the "salvation" of the Drow- Eilistraee would not suddenly seem a martyr to "save" her "people".
Until the Lady Penitent trilogy, there was no indication of any physical corruption in the drow race.
-At most, the Descent of the Drow spell turned the skins of the Dark Elves ebony "to reflect the darkness in their hearts", but that can certainly be read as much metaphorical as physical. Regardless of how you want to read it, though, that's not even remotely similar to the entire 'Original Sin' theme that was introduced.
NB: LK, since you likened Eilistraee to Jesus, more recently I came across The Orc King and found a sentence in there which was IMHO a quite depressing read - not least with all this redemption stuff going on in the LP series:
Sayest Drizzt near the end of the book:
You still read this Drizzt brabbling?
You earned my respect for it! I could not do it any longer, that stuff is the most boring and stupid parts in RAS' novels. He even does this when Drizzt isn't nearby and should know nothing of what it is happening there, like in the novels with Artemis and Jarlaxle. That was the last time I gave a bit about reading this stuff but it was really nonsense and brabbling in fields that felt not realmsian but mor like reading a book of the ultimate moralizer Karl May and his "oh so holy and good Winnetou". You still read this Drizzt brabbling?
You see, I write revisions of FR novels for the German "DnD-Gate" (30odd by now). I get these novels free of charge (apart from paying the P&P) and hence I am obliged to read these novels too. The novel as such is not that bad (by Drizzt-book standards) and I would assume, RAS fans will quite like it.
You still read this Drizzt brabbling?
-I'll admit, I don't either. :embarrass
Well, it's hard for them to remain doing what they were originally trying to do. Being Dark Elves now, rather than Drow.
Not all Eilistraeean drow became dark elves upon her death.
Gomez
Not all Eilistraeean drow became dark elves upon her death.
-Ascendancy of the Last affirms twice (Pgs. 287 & 302) that the Chosen of Eilistraee reverted into Dark Elves upon Eilistraee's "sacrifice".
"Chosen of Eilistraee" refers to ALL of Eilistraee's followers, and is not the same as the usage of the word 'Chosen' elsewhere.
-- Mark (who just finished reading Seven Sisters, and found that bit confusing)
-Ascendancy of the Last affirms twice (Pgs. 287 & 302) that the Chosen of Eilistraee reverted into Dark Elves upon Eilistraee's "sacrifice".
Apparently, Drow can only 'revert' to Dark Elves despite the fact that there were also some Green Elves in the mix originally...
-I'll admit, I don't either.
They fail at being spiritual, reflective, and deep.
Apparently, Drow can only 'revert' to Dark Elves despite the fact that there were also some Green Elves in the mix originally...
Nah ... that is just one late-coming TGHotR retcon of the original lore as presented in Cormanthyr - Empire of the Elves. An utterly unnecessary retcon at that.
And yes, one should use the word Chosen sparingly, at least when it is capitalized.
-Ascendancy of the Last affirms twice (Pgs. 287 & 302) that the Chosen of Eilistraee reverted into Dark Elves upon Eilistraee's "sacrifice".
They may have been given that opportunity, but not all of them eventually did.
I checked this with R&D before I created a drow NPC that is a former Eilistraee priestess (Yellira Am’benuinyl, club mistress of the Fall of Stars).
Gomez
Apparently, Drow can only 'revert' to Dark Elves despite the fact that there were also some Green Elves in the mix originally.
First off, all Elves were Green Elves at some point - that is now canon (not to be confused with the 'High Elves', which all became Eladrin). Green = Sylvan Elves, and the Sylvan Elves split into the Wood, Grugach (Wild), and 'dark' varieties (assuming here that 'dark' may have originally either meant attitude or skin-tone, or both.
That was before the arrival of the Eladrin, a long, LONG time ago.
Note that all Sylven/Green Elves have 'nut colored' skin, so it stands to reason that the dark Elves may not have been any darker then the others, or perhaps only a little darker. Over the interveining millenia, many Sylvan Elves took to a more sedentary lifestyle, having copied the Eladrin, and settled in cities and what-not - which means their skin-tone would have become lighter over time (the more 'primitive' tribes still retain their darker skin).
Second, NO non-Dark Elves were 'bestowed' with the descent curse. Everyone of Illithiir decent was cursed, and the Wood and Wild Elves were of other tribes. We have to make the assumption here that any other Dark Elves (like the Miyeritar) were 'septs' of the main tribe, much the way Amerinds were divided into 'nations' composed of many smaller tribes (this is neccessary to a hunter-gatherer society - its hard to feed large numbers of nomadic peoples traveling together). Ergo, the folk we now know as the Dark Elves were all part of the Ilythiir tribe of Green Elves (and may have gotten the appelation 'Dark' during the Crown Wars, because of their unorthodox methods).
Elves from other tribes (other Green Elves) were known to have helped the Ilythiir in the south (renegades), and a large number of them were part of Miyeritar in the north. It can also be assumed that some Elves felt it was better to side with the Ilythiir and their ken then the Eladrin (note that the behavior of the Aryvandar). This means 'Ilythiir' is a tribe of Elves, while Miyeritar is a nation of Elves (composed of different tribes). 'Miyeritari' is NOT a racial designation - it describes people who were part of that country. There may have even been Silver (and perhaps even Gold) Elves (now called Eladrin) as well, but in much smaller numbers then the 'Greens'.
Although Miyeritar was utterly destroyed and it's people killed or dispersed, only those of the Ilythiir tribe were called 'dark', and they would have been the only ones cursed.
It was always a little confusing, and 4e made it even moreso.
Anyhow, LK and I 'theorized' that Rockseer Elves may exist on Toril, and if they do, they would be descendants of Green (non-Ilythiir) Elves that followed their Dark Elven brethren below the surface, and quite possibly have been those other Miyeritar Elves forgotten about in history.
Looking back at all of that, I'm not sure if I helped at all.
They fail at being spiritual, reflective, and deep.
-If used more sparingly, I think they have the potential to once again be like that. The original ones, from the earlier books, they were somewhat poignant.
And yes, one should use the word Chosen sparingly, at least when it is capitalized.
-Proper noun, being an organization.
They may have been given that opportunity, but not all of them eventually did.
I checked this with R&D before I created a drow NPC that is a former Eilistraee priestess (Yellira Am’benuinyl, club mistress of the Fall of Stars).
Gomez
-It says that they all did in the text.
Although Miyeritar was utterly destroyed and it's people killed or dispersed, only those of the Ilythiir tribe were called 'dark', and they would have been the only ones cursed.
-The residents of Miyeritar were Dark Elves, and were cursed (those who lived)- House Melarn, for example, was of Miyeritaari descent (and had pure blood, none the less, dating back 10,000+ years
) and the members of House Melarn were turned into Drow (those who did not become Sharn).Ergo, all Geen Elves belonging to the tribe of Ilythiir (including those in Miyeritar and elsewhewre) became Drow. Since the Ilythiir Elves gained the appelation 'Dark' at some point (which I'm guessing had more to do with their nature then their skin color), then we can see that Ilythiir = Dark Elves = Drow (in that order, over time).
A 'Dark Elf' is nothing more then a pre-Drow Ilthiiri.
As I stated above, Miyeritar was a kingdom, NOT a sub-race (or tribe, for that matter). The Ilythiir was a tribe (and part of the Green-Elven sub-race) and a nation, but we know of at least two other political entities that were comprised primarilly of Dark (Ilythiir) Elves (the Miyeritar and the Sethomir).
Think of it this way...
The nation of Illithiir was located in the south, and was like Great Britain.
The Miyeritar were like Canada -'settled' by the other group, but not neccesarilly 100% composed of that group.
The Sethomir are like Australia - also 'settled' by that first group, but pretty-much all of that same ethnic stock as that first group.
'British' can be construed as 'race' (in the loosest of terms), where as Great Britain is the Kingdom of origin. So Ilythiir is the country, and Ilythiiri are the people from that country, who also spread to other realms (some shared, some not).
It is a misconception that Miyeritari means 'Dark Elf', because that country was of mixed (Green) Elven stock. Many Miyeritari were Ilythiiri, but certainly not all. So saying 'Miyeritari' only indicates a point of origin, NOT a race of origin.
Right, but if you followed all of my 'pretzle logic', you would see that the Miyeritar Dark Elves were just one clan of the larger tribe of Ilythiir - the assumption being that all Dark Elves were original Ilythiir (because otherwise what differentiates the dark Elves from other Green-Elven tribes?)
Ergo, all Geen Elves belonging to the tribe of Ilythiir (including those in Miyeritar and elsewhewre) became Drow. Since the Ilythirr Elves gained the appelation 'Dark' at some point (which I'm guessing had more to do with their nature then their skin color), then we can see that Ilythiir = Dark Elves = Drow (in that order, over time).
...
Think of it this way...
The nation of Illithiir was located in the south, and was like Great Britain.
The Miyeritar were like Canada -'settled' by the other group, but not neccesarilly 100% composed of that group.
The Sethomir are like Australia - also 'settled' by that first group, but pretty-much all of that same ethnic stock as that first group.
'British' can be construed as 'race' (in the loosest of terms), where as Great Britain is the Kingdom of origin. So Ilythiir is the country, and Ilythiiri are the people from that country, who also spread to other realms (some shared, some not).
-I'm happy that you've accepted my logic. And, in that post, I apparently saw into the future, read your post here, absorbed it, and rehashed it back then, not remembering that I came into the future. Or something like that. :P
A 'Dark Elf' is nothing more then a pre-Drow Ilthiiri.
-A Dark Elf need not be Ilythiiri, however. Dismissing the concept that it is likely that other tribes of Dark Elves exist(ed), sociologically/anthropologically (and, as per The Lady Penitent trilogy, physiologically), Ilythiiri Elves and Miyeritaari Elves are/were different. Where you want to draw the line of the proto-group will determine this, though.
-It says that they all did in the text.
It's never wise to trust in absolutes.
I expect the text was exaggerating for simplification and dramatic effect. I mean, it's a novel. And from comments about it I deduce it was not exactly terribly consistent in other places anyway.
Gomez
It's never wise to trust in absolutes.
I expect the text was exaggerating for simplification and dramatic effect. I mean, it's a novel. And from comments about it I deduce it was not exactly terribly consistent in other places anyway.
-Novels are canon, despite their often glaring inconsistencies and problems.
Since he didn't want to curse all Green Elves (some joined with the Ilythiir, but most were victims), he had to choose a line the was very specific. Saying "I curse all evil Elves" certainly wouldn't have worked, and we also know that Dark Elves elsewhwere, who were not involved in the conflict (some of which were victims themselves, like the Miyertari), were cursed, so there actions were not part of the conditions set in the curse.
Therefore I contend that the curse was genetically-based, and specifically targeted those of Ilythiiri blood, innocent or no. That would mean that the Miyertar Dark Elves were of Ilythiir blood, which actually makes perfect sense, given the Ilythiir's reaction to the Dark Disaster.
And after having just said that, I have yet a third hypothesis for the term 'Dark Elf' - perhaps the Ilythiir themselves took that appelation after the Dark Disaster.
It could have been some sort of Elven 'respect' thing, to honor those who died at the hands of the Aryvaandar.
Or it could be some combination of all three (most likely, IMHO).
-Novels are canon, despite their often glaring inconsistencies and problems.
Sure, but that doesn't mean you need to take elements from them literally.
Especially when absolutes come into the picture - there are always exceptions.
And note that Yellira Am’benuinyl is also canon (though I did not initially explicitly state that her goddess was Eilistraee - still it is easy to deduce).
Gomez
Rules are simple: Drow = evil.
Btw the book is the worst 20 books what I ever read. The basics of D&D and FR doesnt matter for the writer. And the storyline... Its a line, not a story. And a weapon what is holly by Elistree wont become a bottle af a demon, and more: It wont hurt Elistree...
Well, what we should do? Easy: dont use that rules, what we dont like... GMs have free hand in game...
Rules are simple: Drow = evil.
Yes, that must be why they made Drow a player race.... :P
Gomez
Sure, but that doesn't mean you need to take elements from them literally.
-When it says something, specifically, there isn't all that much wiggle room. We have two instances of a seemingly omniscient hive-mind of ancients and Sharn, and Corellon Larethian's chief servitors directly stating that ALL of the Chosen of Eilistraee have become Dark Elves. This isn't a case of a disgraced, heretical servitor of Lolth claiming Drizzt to be one of Lolth's most prized worldly agents. Being as that there is nothing in the original source (Ascendancy of the Last) that implies that any Chosen of Eilistraee did not transform, I'll have to chalk any future sources that imply that they did not as either shoddy research, or agenda in wanting something that the original source material did not state, or even imply. Sorry.
-In effect, it is similar to those people who believe that Mace Windu lived past Revenge of the Sith. It is true that, ultimately, a body was never found, nor a definitive pronouncement of death was never issued, but that is besides the point; the script writer, novelization author, and movie director all make it inherently clear that Mace Windu did not survive. Can a person claim that he did, based on the lack of the things mentioned? Sure. It seems directly contradictory to do so, however, based upon what the the script writer, novelization author, and movie director all did, concerning the character.
Yes, that must be why they made Drow a player race.... :P
Gomez
I suspect it was the other way around. They made Drow = Evil because they were being put into the spotlight as a player race. If there are loads of Drow struggling with their heritage and trying to be good little boys and girls then how could a PC doing the same emphasise their uniqueness?
Answer? All the "Good" Drow are now Green Elves again and all the remaining Drow are Evil again. Apart from occasional (and very unique) novel based examples.
It is the overshadowing argument again. And it still doesn't work for me.
Being as that there is nothing in the original source (Ascendancy of the Last) that implies that any Chosen of Eilistraee did not transform, I'll have to chalk any future sources that imply that they did not as either shoddy research, or agenda in wanting something that the original source material did not state, or even imply.
Could be shoddy research. I didn't read the novel, and 4th ed sources had no information at all. That is why I asked the question to R&D, who told me to go ahead and use a drow. It is possible they didn't fully understand my question, which is why I decided to not mention, explicitly, Yellira's faith, but imply it (also because it could confuse new FR DMs).
I still believe that absolutes statements are hardy ever really that absolute.
I guess I will have to read the novel (or at least that section) to form an opinion on what actually happened, which I'd rather not since apparently everyone thinks it's the worst read ever.
And I think the comparison is off. The claim is not that the event didn't happen or was turned upside down. That claim is that there were exceptions to the rule - exceptions deemed insignificant enough not to be mentioned.
Plus I wouldn't really trust the word of a Sharn...
Gomez
The Eladrin and Elf crap should remind you guys that the lore and rules in FR are no longer something to seriously consider and adhere to. And of course, I see no reason to try to fit that into pre-existing lore when the new contents are obviously retconed in a manner that's lacking in logic and creativity :/
until its retconed, its till legit.
and the fact theyt threew out the history timeline was even more so a joke.
I blame the man in charge, as the man in charge he always gets the blame, unless of course the man in charge is therefor a woman, and theoretically not a man, and thus she gets the blame.
until otherwise noted, let them debate it until they find something new to gripe about.
And I think the comparison is off. The claim is not that the event didn't happen or was turned upside down. That claim is that there were exceptions to the rule - exceptions deemed insignificant enough not to be mentioned.
-There is no reason to believe that there are exceptions to the rule. When a person is blasted by Force Lightning through a window, and plummets who who knows how far down (being that Coruscant is so industrialized that the ground is a mythical place, with most people never having had seen it), they die. Can an exception to the rule exist, where we find out that Mace Windu had in his possession a jet pack beneath his Jedi robes, that allowed him to slow his plummet, giving him time to administer to himself some emergency first-aid, which allowed him to devise a plan that prevented him from meeting an unfortunate end when he would have inevitably hit the ground (or something else) falling at terminal velocity? In theory, sure, why not? There's no reason or any indication to believe that such a thing happened, however.
-If, say, Steve Schend releases a short story where it was revealed that all Sharn who were Sharn (and might have harbored feelings concerning the worship of Eilistraee) in 1,379 DR suddenly became Drow, then there would exist a situation in which, sure, Drow worshipers of Eilistraee did not become Dark Elves. Such a plot line does not exist canonically, as of right now. Until something like that appears, there's no indication.
First off, all Elves were Green Elves at some point - that is now canon ...
... that's how easy a simple sentence in a book can change and retcon an entire race's pedigree. For whatever reason. I wonder whether BJ ever contacted Ed about that. Actually, I don't, for it won't matter to me.
As for "Chosen", LK, it was just a general remark. No need to go into the finer details of English grammar or orthography.
-There is no reason to believe that there are exceptions to the rule.
That is one position to take. the other, which is mine, is that there is no reason to believe that there are no exceptions to the rule.
After all, this is fantasy, quite a lot of which exists out of exceptions.
There are a few possible reasons I had in mind why Yellira didn't transform - the real one being dependent upon the true nature of the event, which is still fairly obscure to me.
Gomez
... that's how easy a simple sentence in a book can change and retcon an entire race's pedigree. For whatever reason. I wonder whether BJ ever contacted Ed about that. Actually, I don't, for it won't matter to me.
Don't blame Brian - there was a '4e bible' involved, and with the advent of Eladrin in core, certain things (beyond his control) needed to be re-worked.
I have no problem with the Eladrin/Elf thing, in fact... it harkens back to days when D&D had only 'High Elves' and 'Wood Elves' (very Tolkienesque, I must admit). We also had Drow and Sea Elves as well, but they were seldom seen and not available as player-races back in the day.
I would rather the Drow have been 'split-off' the Greens earlier then when it happened in the Realms - it makes every other D&D world tied to FR indirectly. It should have happened back in Faerie....
I can still work with it, though.... one of these days I'll actually pen those myths...
... that's how easy a simple sentence in a book can change and retcon an entire race's pedigree. For whatever reason. I wonder whether BJ ever contacted Ed about that. Actually, I don't, for it won't matter to me.
-What's done is done, unfortunately. Despite who actually came up with the concept, or applied it, it's still...controversial, for a lack of better words.
As for "Chosen", LK, it was just a general remark. No need to go into the finer details of English grammar or orthography.
-Just explaining myself. You brought it up.
That is one position to take. the other, which is mine, is that there is no reason to believe that there are no exceptions to the rule.
-An exception to a rule can exist if one is given the possibility that such an exception exists/existed, of which we were not given.
From what I understand, Eilistrae's followers and some Drow bloodlines were transformed into Dark Elves. Basically, those who were redeemed were either people who didn't need or didn't want to be.
Eilistrae's followers were already good, so what was the point of redeeming them?
And concerning the other transformed Drows, what does their transformation accomplish except giving some evil elves the opportunity to infiltrate the surface?
And how is this supposed to be consistent with Eilistrae's goal of offering the Drows an alternative to Lolth's evil?
What I don't get is how Eilistrae's 'sacrifice' is supposed to redeem anyone.
-Like I said earlier, she became Jesus, freeing all of those people from a metaphorical-bordering-literal inherent taint that they were all born with.
From what I understand, Eilistrae's followers and some Drow bloodlines were transformed into Dark Elves. Basically, those who were redeemed were either people who didn't need or didn't want to be.
Eilistrae's followers were already good, so what was the point of redeeming them?
-They're being 'cleansed' of the inherent taint that they all had. Just like, in Christianity, being baptized cleans you of your inherent taint via Original Sin- which a person would still have even if they lived extremely virtuous lives and never did anything wrong even once- the Chosen of Eilistraee got their inherent taint removed when Eilistraee died, and Q'ardlynd & Co. cast that spell.
And concerning the other transformed Drows, what does their transformation accomplish except giving some evil elves the opportunity to infiltrate the surface?
-It removes their inherent taint, giving them the opportunity to live untained lives. Of course, given that an inherent taint is a completely new addition, and that, overall, someone who was evil is still going to be evil, odds are, and someone who is good is still going to be good, odds are, not much is actually changing, sociologically and anthropologically.
And how is this supposed to be consistent with Eilistrae's goal of offering the Drows an alternative to Lolth's evil?
-It's not; the crux of the problem, per se.
I dunno... I just don't see that Eilistraee is dead. Sure, one of her avatars was killed, but when has that ever been the end of a deity unless it's been on their home plane (which it wasn't)? Her primary manifestation simply vanished in front of Lolth, and... well, the moon vanishes ("new moon", anyone?) from time to time.
Well, there's the whole "with Ao as our witness" deal. Technically, perhaps Ao killed Eilistraee and not Lolth.
This is also why I suspect that Eilistraee isn't truly dead. She's bound to arise again, completing the analogy.
-If, that is, you think that Jesus came back to life. ;)
-Me, I think that Eilistraee really ran off, and is living in France...The Tarasque may or may not be there anyway, so...
Its from RW folklore (D&D only invents aberrations).
The Tarasque is Vietnamese, NOT French!
Its from RW folklore (D&D only invents aberrations).
-Asides from what was already said, it is a French word (Tarasque).
-The show in the link that was mentioned...When is that on? It seems interesting, and looks like it's had a lot of episodes. I've never even heard of it, but it sounds like something that I'd like (something in the 'Monsterquest' vein.)
-An exception to a rule can exist if one is given the possibility that such an exception exists/existed, of which we were not given.
There is always a possibility for exception.
Gomez
There is always a possibility for exception.
-When possibility is left open- especially when it is not in opposition of what was stated.
-The show in the link that was mentioned...When is that on? It seems interesting, and looks like it's had a lot of episodes. I've never even heard of it, but it sounds like something that I'd like (something in the 'Monsterquest' vein.)
I'm not sure if it is on right now - it usually starts in the Fall - there are only a handful of episodes - and then they all repeat once, and then it goes off again until the following fall.
I learned about that show because the host was a guest twice on my favorite show - Ghosthunters.
BTW, I'm spending next weekend upstate with the Ghosthunters crew... maybe I'll be on an episode. :D
Anyhow, it is really intersting, if just for the exotic locales, and they try to learn the truth about various folklore. The guy (host) even made the international news when he found a 'Yeti track' in the Himalayas (that happened to be almost identical to the Sasquatch tracks found in NA).
Its a science-based show, but every once in awhile they come across stuff they can't quite explain. Its pretty cool (and provides TONS of inspiration for DMs!).
You can watch videos on thier homepage.
-When possibility is left open- especially when it is not in opposition of what was stated.
Einstein proved that it was impossible to travel faster then light.
And we now know it's theoretically possible.
In time, we find that everything is possible, and all we 'know' amounts to absolutely nothing.
Science is a crutch for people who lack imagination. :D
Its a science-based show, but every once in awhile they come across stuff they can't quite explain.
-Cryptozoology is a cool subject, but it either attracts the "weirdos" who don't apply any scientific basis to their "wacky" theories, or it is completely ignored by "mainstream" scientists. It's nice to see actual science being applied. That's why I like shows like Monsterquest.
Einstein proved that it was impossible to travel faster then light.
And we now know it's theoretically possible.
In time, we find that everything is possible, and all we 'know' amounts to absolutely nothing.
Science is a crutch for people who lack imagination. :D
-Which gets back to an earlier point I made, about theoretics, that I'll just copy and paste, for my own ease (specifically, the second part):
-There is no reason to believe that there are exceptions to the rule. When a person is blasted by Force Lightning through a window, and plummets who who knows how far down (being that Coruscant is so industrialized that the ground is a mythical place, with most people never having had seen it), they die. Can an exception to the rule exist, where we find out that Mace Windu had in his possession a jet pack beneath his Jedi robes, that allowed him to slow his plummet, giving him time to administer to himself some emergency first-aid, which allowed him to devise a plan that prevented him from meeting an unfortunate end when he would have inevitably hit the ground (or something else) falling at terminal velocity? In theory, sure, why not? There's no reason or any indication to believe that such a thing happened, however.
-If, say, Steve Schend releases a short story where it was revealed that all Sharn who were Sharn (and might have harbored feelings concerning the worship of Eilistraee) in 1,379 DR suddenly became Drow, then there would exist a situation in which, sure, Drow worshipers of Eilistraee did not become Dark Elves. Such a plot line does not exist canonically, as of right now. Until something like that appears, there's no indication.
Einstein proved that it was impossible to travel faster then light.
And we now know it's theoretically possible.
Do we? Excellent. Any chance you could either relate your reference for this one here or PM it to me? Not least because the specifics of this statement are OT.
-When possibility is left open- especially when it is not in opposition of what was stated.
The point with exceptions is that, by there very nature, they allow for possibility.
Even if the discusison oin the book would go:
God 1: All followers of Eilistraee were transformed
God 2: Really, all of them?
God 1: Yes, all of them.
God 2: No exceptions?
God1: Yes, no exceptions.
God 2: No, seriously. Absolutely no exceptions whatsoever? All of them, definitely, no possibility for error her at all? Really, really sure? Cross your heart, hope to become immortal and die painfully?
God 1: Yes, yes. Absolutely no exceptions. Trust me.
God 2: Well now, figure that. More tea?
Even then there is possibility for exceptions. They woudl just be, well, more exceptional, than when the discussion went:
God 1: All followers of Eilistraee were transformed.
God 2: Well now, figure that. More tea?
Because then the door is wide open.
I know it is comforting to believe in absolutes. But, both in real life and (especially) in fantasy, there are no real absolutes.
Gomez
No offense Markus... but fer serious... if that's "science" for you, no wonder you don't believe in it. Heh!
I believe in THAT science... not that silly stuff they do in laboratories. :P
"Controlled environments" - they could never embrace the complete randomness of the universe!
Chaos Theory is the only real science I adhere to, which basically says that there are no absolutes (making all other scientific theories merely "best-case scenarios")
Do we? Excellent. Any chance you could either relate your reference for this one here or PM it to me? Not least because the specifics of this statement are OT.
You never heard of Wormholes?
You need to watch more SciFi. :D
You can travel faster then light by traveling outside of normal space, or 'folding space', if you will. Entirely possible, in theory.
Here's what I just found -
• The relativistic momentum of a massive particle would increase with speed in such a way that at the speed of light an object would have infinite momentum.
• To accelerate an object of non-zero rest mass to c would require infinite time with any finite acceleration, or infinite acceleration for a finite amount of time.
• Either way, such acceleration requires infinite energy. Going beyond the speed of light in a homogeneous space would hence require more than infinite energy, which is not generally considered to be a sensible notion.
• Some observers with sub-light relative motion will disagree about which occurs first of any two events that are separated by a space-like interval.[5] In other words, any travel that is faster-than-light will be seen as traveling backwards in time in some other, equally valid, frames of reference, or need to assume the speculative hypothesis of possible Lorentz violations at a presently unobserved scale (for instance the Planck scale). Therefore any theory which permits "true" FTL also has to cope with time travel and all its associated paradoxes,[6] or else to assume the Lorentz invariance to be a symmetry of thermodynamical statistical nature (hence a symmetry broken at some presently unobserved scale).
Lots of mumbo-jumbo, but the only part of that that is pertinent to my argument is the stuff I accented.
At one point, the Earth being round, and the sun being the center of the Solar System, were not sensible notions. Are you saying that humans today have the sum-total of ALL knowledge?
"Not a sensible" notion is not the same as impossible.
“Whoever undertakes to set himself up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods.”
---- Albert Einstein
"Controlled environments" - they could never embrace the complete randomness of the universe!
Well yes, the randomness is usually imposed on top of the quantity you actually want to measure. So of course you would attempt to control the environment in such a way as to decrease the effect of that randomness so that you actually measured the thing you wanted to measure, rather than just the randomness associated with it.
Chaos Theory is the only real science I adhere to, which basically says that there are no absolutes (making all other scientific theories merely "best-case scenarios")
Not really. Chaos theory effectively suggests that due to the fact that there will always be minute differences in the initial conditions of any system the final results will never be exactly the same. And you know what? They don't have to be. Accepting the randomness you so tout as a given, then all theories are designed at the outset to be effective predictors of the mean value of the behaviour or value you are looking for. There are no absolutes in science really, just "This is what highly probably will happen".
You never heard of Wormholes?
Yep, I have. Einstein-Rosen bridges, are their original name. In addition to a semi-professional look at the concept I have also completed technical consultancy work with authors on the subject. And one thing they don't allow you to do is invalidate light speed as a limit.
At one point, the Earth being round, and the sun being the center of the Solar System, were not sensible notions. Are you saying that humans today have the sum-total of ALL knowledge?
No, of course not. If we had the sum-total of all knowledge then why the heck are we still doing experiments? The reason there are scientists up and down the length of the globe bemoaning their luck at the moment is because there will always be more experiments to run than money to run them.
The sun/earth example is actually a proof of my point, not yours. The reason that was considered a non-sensible notion was because of its basis on belief, not on experiment or logic. The reason an over-infinite amount of energy is not considered sensible at the moment is because at the moment to my knowledge, the best cosmological theories we have does not suggest there is an infinite amount of energy in the universe for us to use to accelerate something to lightspeed. This is based on well tested maths and experimental evidence, not belief. It may be that this is wrong but at the moment it applies. This is the basis of all science.
There isn't, however, any indication in any of the source materials that gives us any reason to believe it, however, asides from overly complex and complicated theories, like the Mace Windu one above.
Well, there has been only one (controversial) novel that says the chosen were turned into dark elves.
All other source material you refer to doesn't even mention it having happened at all - anywhere - so using that as reference material isn't really very useful. They obviously wouldn't list the exceptions if they don't even list the event...
And I wouldn't say any explanations are overly complex. I can think up three that are all quite plausible and fairly simple as well. Though Markustay convinced me that you don't even need to state a reason to have it be true (though it is useful to have a plausible reason ready in case it is needed).
Ah well, I will work out Yelirra, and I'll have to see what R&D thinks of it.
Gomez
-You don't seem to be following: I don't have any problems with Chosen of Eilistraee remaining in Drow form, ...
I'm still of the opinion that chosen of Eilistraee would do nicely with the folk you adressing here. They are no Chosen in game terms, nor are they Chosen in setting, i.e. like "chosen" by the deity as e.g. the Seven Sisters are/were, Elminster or Cadderly are/were. They were plain and simply folk why dedicted their souls to the Dark Maiden and in this respect, you could actually denominated any follower of any deity as "Chosen" - which would stretch the in-setting/game meaning a bit.
Well, there has been only one (controversial) novel that says the chosen were turned into dark elves.
All other source material you refer to doesn't even mention it having happened at all - anywhere - so using that as reference material isn't really very useful. They obviously wouldn't list the exceptions if they don't even list the event...
-Exactly. If it was something that was supposed to happen otherwise (ie, certain Drow not reverting back into Dark Elves), source materiel other than the actual novel (controversial in it's plotline, as opposed to anything else, like actual writing style, or setting, and so on) in which it took place (which leaves no allusions to anyone "escaping" or "missing" the effects of the transformation who was supposed to transform) would make acute or obtuse mentions. Nothing is made. Until, as I said, we have any reason to believe that certain individuals "escaped" or "missed" the effects of the transformation who were supposed to transform, we have no reason to believe. A story comes out in a year and a half that talks about how certain Drow "escaped" the effects of the transformation, who were supposed to transform? Sure, fine. Now we're cooking, now we have actual precedent. Now, though? Nope, there's nothing to substantiate it, and everything to fly against it.
-Ultimatley, you can do whatever you want, being as that it's your prerogative in your own game. As I said earlier, based on the facts, it's clear that there weren't any intended "stragglers"- worshipers of Eilistraee (Better Zanan?) who did not transform when Eilistraee died/Q'arlynd & others cast the spell- by the original author, and that the addition of such individuals seems to run counter to what the original author intended, based on Ascendancy of the Last.
I'm still of the opinion that chosen of Eilistraee would do nicely with the folk you adressing here. They are no Chosen in game terms, nor are they Chosen in setting, i.e. like "chosen" by the deity as e.g. the Seven Sisters are/were, Elminster or Cadderly are/were. They were plain and simply folk why dedicted their souls to the Dark Maiden and in this respect, you could actually denominated any follower of any deity as "Chosen" - which would stretch the in-setting/game meaning a bit.
-It's a specific organization, a proper noun. Last time I mentioned that, you yelled at me for getting "technical".
Ultimatley, you can do whatever you want, being as that it's your prerogative in your own game.
It's not my own game though. I am a writing director for LFR, and things that are accepted in LFR adventures become canon. If R&D accepts Yelirra as a drow worshipper of Eilistraee (I'll check this at GenCon) then she is the precedent.
Gomez
-It's a specific organization, a proper noun. Last time I mentioned that, you yelled at me for getting "technical".
I never yell*. Where is that "organization" been spoken about? I can't remember reading about it somewhere ... though you are correct, I could have asked about that the first time around.
*Well, to be honest, I do. But usually only on matchdays and especially during Old Firm derbies. But when it comes to adressing people on boards, I never yell.
It's not my own game though. I am a writing director for LFR, and things that are accepted in LFR adventures become canon. If R&D accepts Yelirra as a drow worshipper of Eilistraee (I'll check this at GenCon) then she is the precedent.
Gomez
-Then, unfortunately, my blanket condemnation of the RPGA Living Forgotten Realms will now have specific instances to cite, concerning my dislike for it, in that authors do what they want to, despite you admittedly not having read the series in which the pivotal information stems from, regardless of facts for or against. Note that this isn't a dig at you, or anything, but is just the first actual instance of me actually seeing the design process of it all, being an outsider; if I saw it with someone else, it'd be with them. Citing my example of Mace Windu's death earlier, a person can, after the fact, claim a reason for his survival, but despite how that is explained, if it's really convoluted, or it if it's really simple, ultimately, it is inherently clear that that was not what the director and writer intended- if Mace Windu was supposed to live, it would have been clear in the movies. Likewise, if Drow priestesses of Eilistraee were intended not to transform along with their sisters, it would have been made clear by Lisa Smedman.
I never yell*. Where is that "organization" been spoken about? I can't remember reading about it somewhere ... though you are correct, I could have asked about that the first time around.
*Well, to be honest, I do. But usually only on matchdays and especially during Old Firm derbies. But when it comes to adressing people on boards, I never yell.
And yes, one should use the word Chosen sparingly, at least when it is capitalized.
[QUOTE-LK]-Proper noun, being an organization.
As for "Chosen", LK, it was just a general remark. No need to go into the finer details of English grammar or orthography.-Just explaining myself. You brought it up.
-What are matchdays, and Old Firm derbies, as an aside?
-Then, unfortunately, my blanket condemnation of the RPGA Living Forgotten Realms will now have specific instances to cite, concerning my dislike for it, in that authors do what they want to, despite you admittedly not having read the series in which the pivotal information stems from, regardless of facts for or against.
If I just did what I wanted to, I would not have this conversation.
I did actually check this with R&D, and did get an answer, though I am now unsure if they understood the question - which is why I will check this at GenCon.
R&D does check things, and has removed some elements I designed from adventures (not necessarily because they disagreed, but because they felt it didn't fit to be included in the specific adventure) .
So far, I have not blanketly stated Yelirra is an Eilistraee worshipper, only hinted at it. I will check again with R&D before I actually state it as fact (which may be a while anyway).
My point is that if it does appear in an RPGA adventure, it (should) mean that R&D agrees with it (or at least has no objections). I'll note though that R&D generally does not like to have 'new' lore introduced in RPGA adventures when it is deemed too significant, so it is equally possible that they will agree but still tell me to not include it.
Likewise, if Drow priestesses of Eilistraee were intended not to transform along with their sisters, it would have been made clear by Lisa Smedman.
Sorry, but that sounds quite naive to me.
"Matchday" or "match day" (both are possible) refers to a date on the football (the European version) calendar on which one or a set of fixtures are played. Old Firm (wikipedia) refers to the two big Glasgow football clubs, when looked upon as a football establishment. And before you ask whom I support, the general answer would be: I support any team that plays Celtic. The specific answer would be: Rangers.
Sorry, but that sounds quite naive to me.
-How's that? If she intended for priestesses of Eilistraee to have remained Drow, would she have not written that 'some' transformed, or that 'only a select few' had the curse reversed, or some such?
LK ... I wasn't looking for a repeat of my quotes, but where you got that notion / info of an organization called "Chosen of Eilistraee" from. I haven't come across somesuch.
-The church of Eilistraee, as a whole. Worshipers of Eilistraee are referred to the 'chosen of Eilistraee'. See Qilue's entry in Seven Sisters, as MT mentioned earlier. I probably should have quoted that, too, sorry.
"Matchday" or "match day" (both are possible) refers to a date on the football (the European version) calendar on which one or a set of fixtures are played. Old Firm (wikipedia) refers to the two big Glasgow football clubs, when looked upon as a football establishment. And before you ask whom I support, the general answer would be: I support any team that plays Celtic. The specific answer would be: Rangers.
-Ah, European football/soccer fervor! I should've figured.
-The church of Eilistraee, as a whole. Worshipers of Eilistraee are referred to the 'chosen of Eilistraee'. See Qilue's entry in Seven Sisters, as MT mentioned earlier. I probably should have quoted that, too, sorry.
So as I said, "chosen of Eilistraee" would be the correct denomination, rather than "Chosen of Eilistraee". Especially when people may have a problem due to existing denominations within the setting.
So as I said, "chosen of Eilistraee" would be the correct denomination, rather than "Chosen of Eilistraee". Especially when people may have a problem due to existing denominations within the setting.
-No, because it is a proper noun, representing a specific organized group (her church & followers), which gets capitalized. Just like Catholic Church, Southern Baptist Convention, and so on.
-How's that? If she intended for priestesses of Eilistraee to have remained Drow, would she have not written that 'some' transformed, or that 'only a select few' had the curse reversed, or some such?
The author had an assignment, which she carried out. But it is naive to assume that she would really be able to determine or set all the paradigms, and that what she wrote is the whole story.
But to answer the question: even if she sets them and had envisioned for some drow to remain drow, she might still not have written that down, either because it was not the assignment at the time, or because it would add a complexity that was not proper to introduce in this novel.
I don't think we'll agree on this though, so to avoid repetitive argunments I suggest we shelve this until after GenCon, after I asked R&D on their stance on Yelirra.
-No, because it is a proper noun, representing a specific organized group (her church & followers), which gets capitalized. Just like Catholic Church, Southern Baptist Convention, and so on.
Having had a look at it, I see your point. Still, going by the logic of that and the author, any clergy or followers of any faith of Faerûn can (and may have) call themselves and may be referred to as "Chosen of *insert deity of your choice*" which would violate the commonly accepted denomination of "Chosen" for someone specifically selected by a deity as a herald, hero or the like - e.g. the Seven Sisters, Cadderly, Erevis Cale and the like.
Though I doubt that you will change your point of view and go on calling the faithful of the Dark Maiden as "Chosen" ... and thus cause some more confusion, will you not?
The author had an assignment, which she carried out. But it is naive to assume that she would really be able to determine or set all the paradigms, and that what she wrote is the whole story.
But to answer the question: even if she sets them and had envisioned for some drow to remain drow, she might still not have written that down, either because it was not the assignment at the time, or because it would add a complexity that was not proper to introduce in this novel.
-All of which assumes that the 'story' (ie, the transformation details) isn't done, when, going by the information we have, there is no reason to believe that it isn't not done.
Having had a look at it, I see your point. Still, going by the logic of that and the author, any clergy or followers of any faith of Faerûn can (and may have) call themselves and may be referred to as "Chosen of *insert deity of your choice*" which would violate the commonly accepted denomination of "Chosen" for someone specifically selected by a deity as a herald, hero or the like - e.g. the Seven Sisters, Cadderly, Erevis Cale and the like.
-In theory. Eilistraee is the only deity canonically whom her clergy is addressed as the 'Chosen of [Deity]'. Torm's church has never been referred to in any books as the 'Chosen of Torm'. Helm's church hasn't, Ilmater's hasn't, and so on. It stems, I believe, from the notion that Drow who follow Eilistraee have believe themselves to have been specially blessed by the goddess, for having her "saved" them from Lolth. Thus, they see themselves as special ('chosen', as in selected).
-In theory. Eilistraee is the only deity canonically whom her clergy is addressed as the 'Chosen of [Deity]'. Torm's church has never been referred to in any books as the 'Chosen of Torm'. Helm's church hasn't, Ilmater's hasn't, and so on. It stems, I believe, from the notion that Drow who follow Eilistraee have believe themselves to have been specially blessed by the goddess, for having her "saved" them from Lolth. Thus, they see themselves as special ('chosen', as in selected).
In practice, only the "chosen of Eilistraee" call themselves "Chosen of Eilsitraee", right? It's not something the world (in-setting) as such does? That's how I read it. Hence, I'd refrain to use it as a canonical denomination of any follower et al of the Dark Maiden, at least in times where "Chosen" is a specific in-game term that does not exactly reflect the "Chosen of Eilistraee" as described by the author.
Alas, either of them are no more.
In practice, only the "chosen of Eilistraee" call themselves "Chosen of Eilsitraee", right? It's not something the world (in-setting) as such does? That's how I read it. Hence, I'd refrain to use it as a canonical denomination of any follower et al of the Dark Maiden, at least in times where "Chosen" is a specific in-game term that does not exactly reflect the "Chosen of Eilistraee" as described by the author.
-If a person mixes them up, the usage of the two similar but different terms, the "responsibility" to figure things out (which, can ultimately be accomplished by asking a simply question) falls on that person, not the people using the terms properly, to not use them. That logic is almost akin to saying that people should not go outside with their valuables, because in doing so, they tempt nefarious people to rob them. What are your feelings on Selûne the goddess, and Selûne the moon? Or Torm (The Knight of Myth Drannor), and Torm (The deity, who is, arguably also a knight)?
-If a person mixes them up, the usage of the two similar but different terms, the "responsibility" to figure things out (which, can ultimately be accomplished by asking a simply question) falls on that person, not the people using the terms properly, to not use them. That logic is almost akin to saying that people should not go outside with their valuables, because in doing so, they tempt nefarious people to rob them. What are your feelings on Selûne the goddess, and Selûne the moon? Or Torm (The Knight of Myth Drannor), and Torm (The deity, who is, arguably also a knight)?
You give the right example here. Hardly anyone who has not read the novel about that Knight of Myth Drannor will know him. But nigh all FR gamers will know Torm the deity. Same with these chosen. If you speak of "Chosen" here, people will think of specific people, chosen by their deities and granted power well above your everyday Faerûnian. Thus, whereas the title "Chosen of Eilistraee" may refer to more than just Qilúe (and hardly anyone in-setting as well as on the table knows of them priests, how they adress themselves or that title in general), speaking about them without a proper explanation may lead your everyday FR boardreader thinking that Eilistraee might be blessing all of her followers with powers galore - for lack of better knowledge. Hence I simply requested a more cautious use of the word.
So anyway, about Eilistraee's death, I decided in my own realms to retire her. She sacrificed herself to convince the rest of the Seldarine that the drow can be redeemed, and that there are good drow outside her church who seek reunion with their surface kin (Corellon and Sehanine believed this, but no one else really did); her divine spark powered the spell which turned her faithful into dark elves. I ignored that whole "bloodline taint of Wendonai" thing. Non-Eilistraeen good drow weren't turned into dark elves, but their features reflect their "redemption"; folk like Drizzt and Liriel have dark silver or gray hair instead of white, and their eyes aren't red (not that Drizzt's were in his case). I also had Selvetarm find redemption after being returned from the dead with Eilistraee's sacrifice. Freed from the will of Lolth and Zanassu, he became Chaotic Neutral (I believe he was originally Neutral before Lolth tricked him). He's now a member of the Seldarine and the patron of dark elves; he inherited Eilistraee's homeplane, the souls of the faithful, and those living Eilistraeens who were willing to accept the Dark Maiden's successor. Surprisingly enough, he's not at odds with Shevarash; far from it, in fact. Shevarash has grudgingly come to accept not all drow are beyond "salvation", but the ones that are are still prime targets for his arrows. Eilistraee won't be resurrected because Corellon believes it would cheapen her sacrifice.
You give the right example here.
-So Torm the Knight of Myth Drannor should never be spoken of, because most casual followers probably don't know who he is, though context clues suggest who the person is that's being discussed? I'm honestly befuddled...
-So Torm the Knight of Myth Drannor should never be spoken of, because most casual followers probably don't know who he is, though context clues suggest who the person is that's being discussed? I'm honestly befuddled...
How about markling chosen of Eilistraee as "Chosen of Eilistraee"? Setting them apart from the Chosne od D&D 3.xE which spring first to mind. Wasn't that hard a step. No-one wants to cut out that sneaky thief Torm, Knight of Myth Drannor, from any story.
To say it in another way, there are two "titles" for Chosen of Eilistraee.
1. those who worship Eilistraee actually use this term, capital letter C and all, to describe themselves. There are examples of this in real world faiths.
2. the technical D&D term that we use in game for describing a Chosen of Eilistraee that the goddess has also gifted with powers of a Chosen.
Both are correct terms, capital letters and all. It's the context, not the capital letter, that is important for the listener to understand.
Are you listening, you two?
Are you listening, you two?
No, we're reading. But someone's got to joust with LK every now and then. Stubborn as he is. But what can you do with someone who's petrified head is laying about in the swamp. Then again, who knows what Spellplague might have done the that.
Ah, and BTW, ;)
No, we're reading. But someone's got to joust with LK every now and then. Stubborn as he is. But what can you do with someone who's petrified head is laying about in the swamp. Then again, who knows what Spellplague might have done the that.
Ah, and BTW, ;)
listen
–verb (used without object)
1. to give attention with the ear; attend closely for the purpose of hearing; give ear.
2. to pay attention; heed; obey (often fol. by to)
3. to wait attentively for a sound (usually fol. by for)
4. Informal. to convey a particular impression to the hearer; sound
:P
listen
–verb (used without object)
1. to give attention with the ear; attend closely for the purpose of hearing; give ear.
2. to pay attention; heed; obey (often fol. by to)
3. to wait attentively for a sound (usually fol. by for)
4. Informal. to convey a particular impression to the hearer; sound
:P
You have just been added to the list of people I need to joust with more often
I make like the brave sir robin
The same guy who hid in the woods with a bunch of 'Merry Men', partying and getting drunk?
Oh... and robbing the Rich... lets not forget Grand Larceny to the list of charges...
Yeah.... he was a mensch. :P
And so this isn't off-topic, I wish Vhaeraun could've been the one to whack Eilistraee...
So, in my Realms....
Eilistraee's sacrifice redeemed untainted drow....which included herself, since she had willingly accepted the curse. She let this transformation strip her of her previous role and divinity, with the side effect of disqualifying her from the sava game. A simple loss and subsequent destruction should have left Lolth winner triumphant, the game finished; that isn't what happened. With Eilistraee's disqualification Corellon, as her father, patron of elves, and Coronal of Arvandor (where Eilistraee had already moved to) took the role now vacant in the unfinished game. Meanwhile, Eilistraee's soul, which would be Corellon's rightful "property", was given new life. Without divinity, she would still be an eons-old daughter of fey powers with a multitude of followers, a perfect recipe for an Archfey. Thus, the Dark Maiden has become the Maiden of the Moon.
Well, well, well... how interesting! And well-spotted, Anjay!
Clever Brian giving a little hint, quietly and innocently!
Excerpt from the 4E Manual of the Planes:
[INDENT]The most well known of the Gloaming Fey is the Maiden of the Moon. She is a formidable hunter who carries a silver sword said to be able to cut through nightmares. The Maiden of the Moon wages a private war against lycanthropes and other savage killers, and she is considered benevolent toward mortals. Although she has many hunting camps in the Feywild, one in particular is a portal to her own private sanctuary on the shining moon above.[/INDENT]
That's remarkably interesting, as this Maiden of the Moon is one of the "unallied archfey," (neither the Summer nor the Winter court) very powerful in her own right, and "keeps her own counsel."
And Eilistraee's highest ceremony was "The Hunt," often for lycanthropes. Her favored weapon: a silver blade. With perhaps some lingering remnants of Vhaeraun's portfolio as well, namely trickery and masking oneself, what better disguise than to live openly in the Feywild.
If this is actually canon, and Eilistraee has managed this (perhaps with Corellon's help), I'd consider switching over to 4E Realms.
Or maybe it's Vhaeraun pretending to be Eilistraee pretending to be an Archfey. Wouldn't that just suck?
And so this isn't off-topic, I wish Vhaeraun could've been the one to whack Eilistraee...
-In a roundabout way, he did, since when he challenged Eilistraee in her home plane, despite who killed who, or what type of arrangement the two worked out, or whatever happened, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun both ceased to exist, and the Masked Lady was born.
She was also much cooler after she whacked him. Far more interesting as the Masked Lady imo.
-Agreed, as it reconciled parts of Eilistraee that I found that did not make too much sense, and parts of Vhaeraun that I found did not make too much sense. I posed the Masked Lady's write-up somewhere or other around here, somewhere...
She was also much cooler after she whacked him. Far more interesting as the Masked Lady imo.
I agree as well. Unfortunately for the Masked Lady, in my own realms, I still saw potential in Vhaeraun the individual, as a thorn in Lolth's arse for all eternity, whereas I neither liked nor despised the Dark Maiden. On the previous page, I mention what I did with Eilistraee; she got to be the hero, in what I consider a less cheesy way than in the Lady Penitent series. Vhaeraun, on the other hand, lives to fight another day...;)
Well, well, well... how interesting! And well-spotted, Anjay!
Clever Brian giving a little hint, quietly and innocently!
Excerpt from the 4E Manual of the Planes:
[INDENT]The most well known of the Gloaming Fey is the Maiden of the Moon. She is a formidable hunter who carries a silver sword said to be able to cut through nightmares. The Maiden of the Moon wages a private war against lycanthropes and other savage killers, and she is considered benevolent toward mortals. Although she has many hunting camps in the Feywild, one in particular is a portal to her own private sanctuary on the shining moon above.[/INDENT]
That's remarkably interesting, as this Maiden of the Moon is one of the "unallied archfey," (neither the Summer nor the Winter court) very powerful in her own right, and "keeps her own counsel."
And Eilistraee's highest ceremony was "The Hunt," often for lycanthropes. Her favored weapon: a silver blade. With perhaps some lingering remnants of Vhaeraun's portfolio as well, namely trickery and masking oneself, what better disguise than to live openly in the Feywild.
If this is actually canon, and Eilistraee has managed this (perhaps with Corellon's help), I'd consider switching over to 4E Realms.
Wicked, eh! So they heeded the massive outcry amongst the Eilistraee-"fanbase" and retconned her in (somewhere) again, some sort of safe-button. "Look folks, she needed to go, but she hasn't vanished forever."
The odds for that were pretty short from the beginning.
Sir Robin of Loxley?
The same guy who hid in the woods with a bunch of 'Merry Men', partying and getting drunk?
Oh... and robbing the Rich... lets not forget Grand Larceny to the list of charges...
Yeah.... he was a mensch. :P
no this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4SJ0xR2_bQ
and thou can have this one for good measure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfGpVcdqeS0&feature=fvw
Sir Robin of Loxley?
I think he meant this Robin:
Show
Bravely bold Sir Robin
Rode forth from Camelot.
He was not afraid to die,
Oh brave Sir Robin.
He was not at all afraid
To be killed in nasty ways.
Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Robin.
He was not in the least bit scared
To be mashed into a pulp.
Or to have his eyes gouged out,
And his elbows broken.
To have his kneecaps split
And his body burned away,
And his limbs all hacked and mangled
Brave Sir Robin.
His head smashed in
And his heart cut out
And his liver removed
And his bowls unplugged
And his nostrils raped
And his bottom burnt off
And his pen--
"That's... that's enough music for now lads,
*** there's dirty work afoot*** ???."
Brave Sir Robin ran away.
("No!")
Bravely ran away away.
("I didn't!")
When danger reared it's ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
("no!")
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
("I didn't!")
And gallantly he chickened out.
****Bravely**** taking ("I never did!") to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat.
("all lies!")
Bravest of the braaaave, Sir Robin!
("I never!")
Bravely bold Sir Robin
Rode forth from Camelot.
He was not afraid to die,
Oh brave Sir Robin.
He was not at all afraid
To be killed in nasty ways.
Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir Robin.
He was not in the least bit scared
To be mashed into a pulp.
Or to have his eyes gouged out,
And his elbows broken.
To have his kneecaps split
And his body burned away,
And his limbs all hacked and mangled
Brave Sir Robin.
His head smashed in
And his heart cut out
And his liver removed
And his bowls unplugged
And his nostrils raped
And his bottom burnt off
And his pen--
"That's... that's enough music for now lads,
*** there's dirty work afoot*** ???."
Brave Sir Robin ran away.
("No!")
Bravely ran away away.
("I didn't!")
When danger reared it's ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
("no!")
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
("I didn't!")
And gallantly he chickened out.
****Bravely**** taking ("I never did!") to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat.
("all lies!")
Bravest of the braaaave, Sir Robin!
("I never!")
Thankyou for providing me a nice neat way to also save Sehanine. Hanali Celanil and Aerdrie Faeyna, should I ever run the Realms. Facing either battle and/or a threat to their worshippers they slipped into the shadows and are already planning their return! ;)
Cheers!
Hanali Celanil is in 4e as an avatar of Sune. Aerdri Faenya is in 4e as an avatar of Akadi, the Primordial of Air. (Read the entry for Evreska).
Hanali Celanil is in 4e as an avatar of Sune. Aerdri Faenya is in 4e as an avatar of Akadi, the Primordial of Air. (Read the entry for Evreska).
I knew that. What I am "saving" them from is this reduction to being purely an expression of another deity. I do not agree with the decision made to reduce the demi-human pantheons and thus will be applying the above idea to My Realms (should I ever get to run it).
I knew that. What I am "saving" them from is this reduction to being purely an expression of another deity. I do not agree with the decision made to reduce the demi-human pantheons and thus will be applying the above idea to My Realms (should I ever get to run it).
-As my girlfriend taught me, you don't need to run a D&D (or any other system) game to have your own Forgotten Realms.
I'm still constantly re-tweaking mine, and I'm not sure if I'll ever run a Realms game again.
Excellent point.
Wicked, eh! So they heeded the massive outcry amongst the Eilistraee-"fanbase" and retconned her in (somewhere) again, some sort of safe-button. "Look folks, she needed to go, but she hasn't vanished forever."
The odds for that were pretty short from the beginning.
I'm not sure about that.... It sounds a bit like Eilistraee, but there's absolutely no mention of a connection to the drow, and caring for good drow was the reason of her existence. Eilistraee not caring for drow is like Helm sleeping on duty.
So, looking at Brian's suggestion....it struck me the Archfey inhabiting the Feywild called the Maiden of the Moon in the new Manual of the Planes bears a happy simularity to a certain former goddess. A lunar fey huntress wielding a silver sword that is beneficient towards mortals and hostile towards the savage? That's much too good to pass up as far as I'm concerned.
So, in my Realms....
Eilistraee's sacrifice redeemed untainted drow....which included herself, since she had willingly accepted the curse. She let this transformation strip her of her previous role and divinity, with the side effect of disqualifying her from the sava game. A simple loss and subsequent destruction should have left Lolth winner triumphant, the game finished; that isn't what happened. With Eilistraee's disqualification Corellon, as her father, patron of elves, and Coronal of Arvandor (where Eilistraee had already moved to) took the role now vacant in the unfinished game. Meanwhile, Eilistraee's soul, which would be Corellon's rightful "property", was given new life. Without divinity, she would still be an eons-old daughter of fey powers with a multitude of followers, a perfect recipe for an Archfey. Thus, the Dark Maiden has become the Maiden of the Moon.
works for me.:D
She's in the -feywild- though... that's pretty elfy.
-Hey, don't forget: Arvandor is the traditional "Elfhome", not the Plane of Faerie, though the two share close connections. Even when Arvandor wasn't a plane of it's own, it wasn't in the Plane of Faerie...Arboria, I think it was (though, I'm not 100% certain).
-Hey, don't forget: Arvandor is the traditional "Elfhome"
And now it's the new age "Gnome-home."
:P
-I'll take your word for it, on that one.
The Golden Hills were merged with Arvandor during the cosmological shake-up.;)
Eilistraee, hereafter referred to as 'Slimy' because her name makes me think of eels, which are slimy, is and should remain dead. >D
Vhaeraun however needs to be alive again/never dead in the first place, stat.
Outside of Corellon somehow taking over for the evil drow as well and gently guiding them back to goodness and sanity, he was IMO the best possible choice of a god for the drow. Lolth is nuts and has her insane matriarchy. Slimy was too goody-two-shoes and a hypocrite to boot(Yeah come be free on the surface, little male drow, where you can still be worth less than a female). :P
Long live the Masked Lord! :P
Arvandor was/is, depending on your view of cosmology changes(They can suck it, it's still where it always was), located on the first layer of the plane of Arborea. The layer's called Arvandor or Olympus depending on who you ask/what edition it is.
Eilistraee, hereafter referred to as 'Slimy' because her name makes me think of eels, which are slimy, is and should remain dead. >D
Vhaeraun however needs to be alive again/never dead in the first place, stat.
Outside of Corellon somehow taking over for the evil drow as well and gently guiding them back to goodness and sanity, he was IMO the best possible choice of a god for the drow. Lolth is nuts and has her insane matriarchy. Slimy was too goody-two-shoes and a hypocrite to boot(Yeah come be free on the surface, little male drow, where you can still be worth less than a female). :P
Long live the Masked Lord! :P
I couldn't agree more, my friend!
She's in the -feywild- though... that's pretty elfy. Besides, she saved the ones that she could, and her father took up the mantle of rescuing drow. So now it's back to her first love: saving the fey by destroying lycanthropes! :D
Well, Corellon does a really great job. Epic good drow can be redeemed, but they don't get access to Arvandor. Instead they are reborn as pinkskins and can come to Arvandor after their next life. Because Corellon does such a ****** job I demand the reascension of Eilistraee (if anybody calls her "slimy" again I will have to think of an oath of enmity). Drow need a drow goddess, Corellon can have the rest.
Even Greater Gods are powerless before the might of Idiot Ideas Made Canon.
I've tried to think of a way to justify that ED but still haven't been able to. It's just plain stupid all around, and just makes me think that the designers all hate Elves and especially hate the Seldarine. (Yeah let's have the Seldarine not do anything ever, even when they *would* be doing something, looking at you, WotSQ/LP, and then associate the most offensive ED ever with Corellon. gg guys, not.) If I ever for some reason go mad and run 4e FR, that ED does not exist and isn't needed.
Frak calling Slimy that, I need an Oath of Enmity against the people who come up with this stuff.
She's in the -feywild- though... that's pretty elfy. Besides, she saved the ones that she could, and her father took up the mantle of rescuing drow. So now it's back to her first love: saving the fey by destroying lycanthropes! :D
... or to put it somewhat more "poetic" for her days after the sacrifice:
They tried to send her to the Realms again,
But she said No! No! No!
Well, Corellon does a really great job. Epic good drow can be redeemed, but they don't get access to Arvandor. Instead they are reborn as pinkskins and can come to Arvandor after their next life. Because Corellon does such a ****** job I demand the reascension of Eilistraee (if anybody calls her "slimy" again I will have to think of an oath of enmity). Drow need a drow goddess, Corellon can have the rest.
-The 'Redeemed Drow' ED says specifically that those Dark Elves don't have access to Arvandor? I find that kind of comical, because the last few pages of Ascendancy of the Last says specifically that the spirits of the Dark Elves are being taken to...Arvandor!
-If I am understanding things correctly without having read that material, there's another case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.
that ED wasa joke and never should of been printed.
Hells, I forgot that ED even existed! I think my mind put up a mental block to protect me.
Hells, I forgot that ED even existed! I think my mind put up a mental block to protect me.
-That's one thing I don't like about 4e. You have to have ED. You're forced to have a PP, and having that PP always leads to ED. It's a hard (or rather, not, come to think of it), points-of-light world out there...
-Now, imagine if someone statted Eilistraee up like a character. She'd have to have a PP, and I don't think there's anything that matches her.
If I wanted artillery, I would play a tacticle war board game.
;)
-That's one thing I don't like about 4e. You have to have ED. You're forced to have a PP, and having that PP always leads to ED.
EDs are given at 21st level and do not relate to a PP (maybe in some extremely rare cases).
I can't see how having an ED/PP is a bad thing, they are simply functions of the most powerful level characters. A PP/ED adds quite a lot as well, in terms of both mechanics and personalizing a character.
Now, imagine if someone statted Eilistraee up like a character. She'd have to have a PP, and I don't think there's anything that matches her.
There are very obvious reasons why 4E doesn't stat NPCs like PCs anymore
She would be statted up as a 21st level Elite Solo Brute Artillery, or some such nonsense
Actually the statted Gods have been controllers and are around levels 33-35 or so. Brute and artillery are also mutually exclusive roles incidentally. NPCs tend to be statted lower for fairly obvious reasons (albeit few got statted at all, which is ideal).
EDs are given at 21st level and do not relate to a PP (maybe in some extremely rare cases).
I can't see how having an ED/PP is a bad thing, they are simply functions of the most powerful level characters. A PP/ED adds quite a lot as well, in terms of both mechanics and personalizing a character.
There are very obvious reasons why 4E doesn't stat NPCs like PCs anymore
-Way over your head. Let me add the required '
'.-Reread all of that again. Phonetically probably makes it more obvious.
In addition....even if one believes the Maiden of the Moon to be a surviving Eilistraee, she still isn't the Goddess of Good Drow and Drow Redemption anymore. She lost her divinity and her seat at the game's table; that spot belongs to Corellon. She's now just an Archfey. To answer the Helm analogy: decribe Helm if he wasn't deity of guardians and vigilance. Would the result be simular? I think it would.
Also, though the Redeemed Drow ED is hardly my favorite ever...there seems to be some misconception? The fluff states specifically that the drow is taken to Arvandor, judged by Corellon, and the curse lifted before being given a glimpse of themselves as they were "before the betrayal - before the fall". I took that as meaning how they would have been as a dark elf instead of drow. Then they're reborn; again, I assumed it would mean as a dark elf, rather than "pinkskin"(? Does pinkskin mean eladrin or elf or something else?). Hence the mention of them seeing themselves as a dark elf rather than drow just prior. Its not the "poof curse-be-gone" Eilistraee engineered, but it does grant the chance for the soul to experience a life free of the curse.
On top of that, there's an escape clause: "This said, there are many paths
to redemption and finding this coveted prize might take you in unexpected directions." That sentence basically leaves it open for some other end fate to befall a redeemed drow, thus letting you or your DM to come up with something more suitable if the above isn't to your liking.
I think I'm the only one who got the joke. Pretty funny, heh! :D
Don't worry, you're not alone.;)
Anjay: While that's a less obnoxious interpretation, it unfortunately leaves the most obnoxious thing about the ED in place: It's a sodding ED.
Epic Destiny, what you achieve after going far, far beyond the bounds of what normal mortals can even conceive.
Your friends have gone on to become gods or exarchs or archfey or whathaveyou. You? Yay, Corellon forgives you and you get to have another life. Uh... Yeeeeeah.
One, this is not particularly epic.
Two... Yeah all drow are soooooo irredeemably evil and tainted that it takes a freaking *ED* and 30 levels of heroism for Corellon to decide that you can be forgiven? Bull.
It insults both drow and Corellon. No hope whatsoever for the drow who turns away from the evil of the underdark and becomes, say, a kindly innkeeper who helps the poor with his earnings. Oh no, he can't possibly be good enough, he goes to Lolth or whatever BS when he dies because he's a drow and they're all eeeeeeevil. Oh no, Corellon couldn't possibly allow someone like that into Arvandor, not even if Mr. Drow spent hours out of every day praying to him. No, you have to be Epic and the Biggest Hero Ever to have any hope of redemption.
It's disgusting and whoever came up with it needs to be smacked with every FR sourcebook and novel ever written, hardcovers where applicable. Throw in the Greyhawk, Eberron, Spelljammer, Planescape, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, Mystara and anything else I'm forgetting ones too.
-The 'Redeemed Drow' ED says specifically that those Dark Elves don't have access to Arvandor? I find that kind of comical, because the last few pages of Ascendancy of the Last says specifically that the spirits of the Dark Elves are being taken to...Arvandor!
-If I am understanding things correctly without having read that material, there's another case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.
They pass through Arvandor, but are not allowed to stay.
"True Redemption: Upon completing your final
quest, you were plucked from the mortal world and
escorted by Corellon’s chosen servants to make
your final journey to his dominion in the Astral Sea.
There, standing before the great and mighty god,
your mortal deeds are weighed and judged, your
accomplishments celebrated, and your failings considered.
In the end, the god lifts the curse from you.
For a moment, you see yourself as you were originally
formed, before the betrayal—before the fall—and all
falls dark. In a blink of an eye, you awaken once more,
your soul contained in a new infant body. As you take
in your surroundings, your memories of the past fade
as you take in the long, rich life that lies before you."
The Drow in Ascendancy of the Last were transformed back into Dark Elves, that's why they were allowed into Arvandor. It seems it doesn't matter as what you were born, only as what you die.:D
Also, though the Redeemed Drow ED is hardly my favorite ever...there seems to be some misconception? The fluff states specifically that the drow is taken to Arvandor, judged by Corellon, and the curse lifted before being given a glimpse of themselves as they were "before the betrayal - before the fall". I took that as meaning how they would have been as a dark elf instead of drow. Then they're reborn; again, I assumed it would mean as a dark elf, rather than "pinkskin"(? Does pinkskin mean eladrin or elf or something else?). Hence the mention of them seeing themselves as a dark elf rather than drow just prior. Its not the "poof curse-be-gone" Eilistraee engineered, but it does grant the chance for the soul to experience a life free of the curse.
The problem is that before the Lady Penitent crap being drow wasn't a curse. They were transformed into these forms ages ago, they got black skin, white hair, sensibility to bright light and that was it. It gave them problems to conquer the surface world but it had absolutely no impact on their souls.
Since almost 10,000 year drow have been born that way. Some racists said that they were black because their evil hearts rubbed off on the skin but that was a load of crap. Now it's almost official. Having black skin and being able to cast faerie fire and darkness is a terrible curse, and if you ever become epic you may be rewarded with a new life with pink skin (derogatory term of the andorians for humans regardless of skin colour, adapted by me for "normal" elven races).
She would be statted up as a 21st level Elite Solo Brute Artillery, or some such nonsense.
I picture her more as a Solo Skirmisher.
Gomez
I picture her more as a Solo Skirmisher.
Gomez
Mortal Form: Bard, multiclass feats for cleric and fighter or barbarian. Blessed Psalmist PP, Avatar of Hope ED. For making her a god I would simply add the appropriate traits, enhanced attributes and the "solo template".
-The 'Redeemed Drow' ED says specifically that those Dark Elves don't have access to Arvandor? I find that kind of comical, because the last few pages of Ascendancy of the Last says specifically that the spirits of the Dark Elves are being taken to...Arvandor!
-If I am understanding things correctly without having read that material, there's another case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.
Sorry, but what's ED?
The Drow in Ascendancy of the Last were transformed back into Dark Elves, that's why they were allowed into Arvandor. It seems it doesn't matter as what you were born, only as what you die.:D
Why would a drow who has found redemption through their own lifetime of mortal struggles before finally coming face-to-face with Corellon himself experience the same process as those redeemed by the divine sacrifice of a goddess dedicated to their cause in a cosmic sava game?
At any rate, a character with the Redeemed Drow epic destiny is obviously considered worthy of Arvandor, since they're personally escorted there and come face-to-face with Corellon himself. Being reborn as an actual dark elf is a reward, not a punishment, and certainly not them being kicked out for being born drow.
The problem is that before the Lady Penitent crap being drow wasn't a curse. They were transformed into these forms ages ago, they got black skin, white hair, sensibility to bright light and that was it. It gave them problems to conquer the surface world but it had absolutely no impact on their souls.
Since almost 10,000 year drow have been born that way. Some racists said that they were black because their evil hearts rubbed off on the skin but that was a load of crap. Now it's almost official. Having black skin and being able to cast faerie fire and darkness is a terrible curse, and if you ever become epic you may be rewarded with a new life with pink skin (derogatory term of the andorians for humans regardless of skin colour, adapted by me for "normal" elven races).
That's a pretty....rabid interpretation. On the flip side:
The dark elves, because of the evil a group of them had embraced, were subjected to a horrific magical spell which warped their very bodies, and the bodies of their children, and their children's children, and so on in perpetuity. They were forced into a cruel, inhospitable environment, where comitting and enduring untold atrocities became commonplace for survival. What they truly were, what they were meant to be, was stripped from them. That's not a curse? I'd hate to see what you'd call a curse. Through this path of redemption, a drow is reborn to live a life without the burdens heaped on them by that curse; they can live as true dark elves rather than as the creations of yet another elven high magic screw up.
Now, I dont agree with that epic destiny being the path to redemption. Its not too bad as a path to redemption, but then I'm not sure it ever even claims to be the path, especially if you factor in the "escape clause" sentence I quoted in my previous post (and which you left out of yours). I know Mielikki will have plenty to say when the soul of a certain drow ranger is up for judgement; he likely secured his own, unique path to a form of redemption quite a long time ago. Likely plenty of other drow can do likewise, in their way and in their own time.
By the by, how is "pinkskin", a term for humans, appropriate to describe the dark skinned elves?
At any rate, a character with the Redeemed Drow epic destiny is obviously considered worthy of Arvandor, since they're personally escorted there and come face-to-face with Corellon himself. Being reborn as an actual dark elf is a reward, not a punishment, and certainly not them being kicked out for being born drow.
Funny, normally the afterlife is considered the eternal reward/punishment depending on where your soul is brought. But you are thrown out of paradise to live again AND have to possible to do things wrong in that life so you land somewhere else after you finally die. Great reward, really.
That's a pretty....rabid interpretation. On the flip side:
The dark elves, because of the evil a group of them had embraced, were subjected to a horrific magical spell which warped their very bodies, and the bodies of their children, and their children's children, and so on in perpetuity.
It maybe was horrific to the dark elves that were changed. But now it's just as horrific to change those who were born that way back. Because the only horrific thing about it is the change, not the black skin. Drow still are among the most beautiful races in D&D.
They were forced into a cruel, inhospitable environment, where comitting and enduring untold atrocities became commonplace for survival.
That was what they got from Lolth, you can blame the elves for sending them into the neighbourhood of beholders, mindflayers etc. But not for the form of society they chose.
What they truly were, what they were meant to be, was stripped from them. That's not a curse?
It was a curse for those who were originally dark elves. But not for those who were born that way. For those it was what they truly were and what they were meant to be that was taken away by Eilistraee's sacrifice in the LP series.
Through this path of redemption, a drow is reborn to live a life without the burdens heaped on them by that curse; they can live as true dark elves rather than as the creations of yet another elven high magic screw up.
It is possible for drow the exist outside of their society, and if one manages to get to level 30 with this epic destiny he managed that obviously well enough. Now he has to do everything again instead of staying in the afterlife he earned.
Now, I dont agree with that epic destiny being the path to redemption. Its not too bad as a path to redemption, but then I'm not sure it ever even claims to be the path, especially if you factor in the "escape clause" sentence I quoted in my previous post (and which you left out of yours). I know Mielikki will have plenty to say when the soul of a certain drow ranger is up for judgement; he likely secured his own, unique path to a form of redemption quite a long time ago. Likely plenty of other drow can do likewise, in their way and in their own time.
Yes, I ignored the escape clause because it's an exception where a rule would be needed (or better that epic destiny shouldn't have ever existed). And please stop with Drizzt. Salvatore practically had the exact opposite of the epic destiny. It seemed that Drizzt inherited the good heart of his father, which is equally dumb.
By the by, how is "pinkskin", a term for humans, appropriate to describe the dark skinned elves?
"Pinkskin" is a term for all humans by the blue-skinned andorians. Why shouldn't it be also applicable by drow for all the other elves that have a more humanoid range of skin colours?
Hmm, for a drow to be reborn as a dark elf whenever Corellon deems a drow worthy the dark elven population must be thriving somewhere to provide enough newborn... perhaps Eilistraee's sacrifice had proven to change a good deal of the drow race then and there. Perhaps even a hundred thousand or more newly transmuted dark elves where formed, enabling the formation of a score of dark elven settlements.
The reincarnation part of the Redeemed Drow epic destiny fits the tenants of the Seldarine. The redemption of the drow race by securing the dark elven population is a proces that will take several ages because in typical elven fashion the decision is weighed slowly and meticulously. By giving the drow a life reborn as a dark elf they can then live in a shell untainted by evil instincts and indoctrination.
Drow don't have evil instincts, they learn them from indoctrination. And would you care to explain what you mean? How does the existence of the dark elves redeem the drow. And who wants his soul erased by a complete mindwipe? You're ignoring that the person that achieves level 30 as a redeemed drow ceases to exist because all the memories about what made them walk that path are gone. Where the hell is this a reward?
Hmm, for a drow to be reborn as a dark elf whenever Corellon deems a drow worthy the dark elven population must be thriving somewhere to provide enough newborn... perhaps Eilistraee's sacrifice had proven to change a good deal of the drow race then and there. Perhaps even a hundred thousand or more newly transmuted dark elves where formed, enabling the formation of a score of dark elven settlements.
To make enough babies for drow that are dumb enough to take that ED one dark elven couple would suffice. How many level 30 drow are out there? Drizzt is level 21 now.
The Epic Destiny can be viewed as an example of the way Corellon now handles the soul traffic towards Arvandor. Remember in the new cosmological setup not all souls get taken to live alongside their dieties on their domains, but only those deemed worthy enough. Lesser souls have a chance to be left on the wayside, never to be noticed by their patron gods servitors, lingering on the Fugue till they fade, are reborn, leave for the realm beyond or are captured and dragged down the Abyss by demons...
Of course its bullcrap a soul cant be redeemed unless its a hero of epic proportions. That part I agree with. The destiny should just be seen as the standard way the afterlife of a drow that got positive attention of the Seldarine should be handled.
Reincarnation as a dark elf is a reward because the drow soul is treated as all other elven souls, who get entrance into Arvandor at first but eventually reincarnate. Drow souls have been expelled from the cycle of life and death and life that the Seldarine elves are part of. It's because of their half-demonic traits the souls of drow have become twisted that even a good drow soul is made of the stuff of evil. Their stop at arvandor is delayed one life cycle but their redemption is complete when their reincarnated life is over once again.
As far as I know drow didn't have anything half-demonic or inherently evil about them up to Lady Penitent, except draegloths. And that elves are constantly reborn would be new to me too, so please cite your source.
The Epic Destiny can be viewed as an example of the way Corellon now handles the soul traffic towards Arvandor. Remember in the new cosmological setup not all souls get taken to live alongside their dieties on their domains, but only those deemed worthy enough. Lesser souls have a chance to be left on the wayside, never to be noticed by their patron gods servitors, lingering on the Fugue till they fade, are reborn, leave for the realm beyond, or are captured and dragged down the Abyss by demons...
I'm trying to ignore the new cosmology as far as it is humanly possible.
Life is a series of mysteries whose secrets are veiled by the mystic clouds. As the spirit transcends its mortal bounds and new mysteries are uncovered, a higher form is achieved and the cycle of life continues...
Through dreams, visions and omens revealed through sleep and reverie, Sehanine reveals the next step along the path and the next destination on the endless journey of mystic wonder that is life and death and life.
I was hesitant about the changes to the traffic of souls to the Fugue and through the Shadowplane, but the new setup has managed to reinstill some mystery and doubt to the afterlife. By making things like the afterlife uncertain a little more realism can be shown when roleplaying i.e. showing an NPC's irrational fear for death; an emotion thats very recognisable and an important fantasy theme.
I got it too. Maybe if she had had one she wouldn't have been as sexist. :P
-Agreed. Again, why I see the Masked Lady (Vhaeraun and Eilistraee) as the optimum non-Lolthite, non-extremist (Ghunadaur & Kiaransalee) Drow deity.
Sorry, but what's ED?
-Dysfunction of a certain male body part, of which 'PP' is a clever euphemism.
The concept of reincarnation is part of the dogma of Sehanine Moonbow, the Seldarines goddes of death and transcendance and the steward of elven souls. Its in Faiths and Pantheons in her dogma:
-Of course, we know the difference between dogma, belief, and actual truth. Being outside observers to the metaphysics of Realmspace, we know that upon death, souls travel to the Fugue (however they get there, depending on what edition you want to follow), and then are taken to Arvandor (concerning Elves). Reincarnation is a decision that is made in life, or possibly in the afterlife, made consciously, like Resurrection, not something that inherently happens to a soul as part of the cycle of life and death. All that said, I fail to see how "a higher form" refers to reincarnation, but rather, interpret that as becoming a Petitioner of Arvandor. Given that Elves strive and yearn to one day enter into Arvandor, to the point that some older ones willingly "end their lives" peacefully (will themselves to die), reincarnation is almost an anathema to the mainstream Elven mindset.
I fail to see how "a higher form" refers to reincarnation, but rather, interpret that as becoming a Petitioner of Arvandor. Given that Elves strive and yearn to one day enter into Arvandor, to the point that some older ones willingly "end their lives" peacefully (will themselves to die), reincarnation is almost an anathema to the mainstream Elven mindset.
Why is ending ones life to eventually enjoy life on Toril young again once more anathema to an elven mind?
In any case Sehanine Moonbows duties are to guide the souls to their destination. For elves Arvandor is the final destiny but to maintain some comsmic balance new souls are often made from the componets of older petetioners of Arvandor. Being a petetioner on Arvandor isn't eternal if Sehanines words are to believed, and I see a lot of sense in that.
This cycle might not be apparent for the long lived elves, as their stages in life and death and life are all very long compared to human or animal life cycles. Arvandor is the place where an elf can rest and contemplate for ages before its soul is ready again to be reborn.
Why is ending ones life to enjoy life on Toril young again once more anathema to an elven mind?
-As I said, the drive to "see" (if spirits can see) Arvandor gets so strong at older ages that older Elves will themselves to peacefully die, so that they'll be able to "see" Arvandor. Methods that run counter to seeing Arvandor are atypical, which is why Elves give an extreme amount of respect to those who become Baelnorn, or Reverend Ones, or guardian Treants, or guardian Dryads. These Elves are sacrificing their immediate ability to go to Arvandor (in some cases, possibly permanent) for the greater Elven good, be it protecting a person, a place, whatever. Willingly dismissing the prospect of being able to see Arvandor in a lifetime (however long that is) is much akin to the societal stigmas we place on suicide. We see suicide as an anathema, being as that it ends someone's life when it naturally shouldn't happen. With Elves, delaying the trip to Arvandor is an anathema, preventing the trip to Arvandor when it should happen. Just like we, as a society, say that something has got to be seriously wrong with a person when they choose to kill themselves, willingly preventing yourself from arriving in Arvandor would be something that is equally seriously wrong.
In any case Sehanine Moonbows duties are to guide the souls to their destination. For elves Arvandor is the final destiny but to maintain some comsmic balance new souls are often made from the componets of older petetioners of Arvandor. Being a petetioner on Arvandor isn't eternal if Sehanines words are to believed, and I see a lot of sense in that.
This cycle might not be apparent for the long lived elves, as their stages in life and death and life are all very long compared to human or animal life cycles. Arvandor is the place where an elf can rest and contemplate for ages before its soul is ready again to be reborn.
-We, knowing how metaphysics actually work in Realmspace, as opposed to ascribing to a particular hypothesis, dogma, philosophy, belief, and whatever else, know that that isn't the case, and that souls "automatically" arrive on the Fugue (as far as we know, this was occurring, even to Elves, before the Seldarine arrived in Realmspace), with or without the involvement of Sehanine Moonbow.
-And then, once more, we run into a hangup concerning rebirth and reincarnation. Canonically, we know that very few souls willingly choose to "leave the afterlife" once they arrive, refusing summons to be raised from the dead, as is their prerogative, because of the (seeming) bliss they feel there. As Captain Melruth Starbrow said in The Last Mythal trilogy after accepting the call to return to the world of the living, he is unsure whether or not he would willingly do it again, having only vaguely remembered and retained some of the euphoria that came about from being in Arvandor, the ultimate community for the communal Elven race.
-I would recommend reading the article entitled 'Elven Death', which can be found in Elves of Faerûn.
dirty
anyway in the CB, the drizzt demo there was supposed to have him wtih the ED, which leaves me to wonder, who wrote it and why, drizzt is going to the house of nature not arvandor.
now that I got the joke in its entirety
dirty
anyway in the CB, the drizzt demo there was supposed to have him wtih the ED, which leaves me to wonder, who wrote it and why, drizzt is going to the house of nature not arvandor.
Well, Drizzt worships Mielikki, so I expect that even if he were to have the Redeemed Drow ED (which we know doesn't fit given The Orc King), his loyalty to Mielikki overrides any ties he has to Corellon.
-Turning him into a Dark Elf, or anything else, kind of defeats the entire purpose of Drizzt, the proverbial needle in the haystack, though. But, that's another matter, another thread entirely.
-We know that Drizzt isn't "saved", being as that he was not a member of the Chosen of Eilistraee, nor was he, apparently, of pure Miyeritari blood, so...He's not "saved" that way, anyway.
We know that, but it appears whoever put together Drizzt's write-up in the CB didn't.:D
and place your bets on Entreri, getting all assassin lvls in 4e...
and place your bets on Entreri, getting all assassin lvls in 4e...
If they bother putting him into the CB to begin with (which is unlikely).
We know that, but it appears whoever put together Drizzt's write-up in the CB didn't.:D
-Ugh, well, we was supposed to include all of us, us people living on Earth, but...Meh, maybe not.
-Ugh, well, we was supposed to include all of us, us people living on Earth
Fair enough.
(Off-topic): Did you ever get that PM I sent you a few days ago?
I keep seeing both "drow" and "dark elf" tossed around as if they were terms referring to two different things. I was always under the impression that drow are dark elves, and that "drow" is just another word for it.
So... what gives?
... Okay, I'm confused here.
I keep seeing both "drow" and "dark elf" tossed around as if they were terms referring to two different things. I was always under the impression that drow are dark elves, and that "drow" is just another word for it.
So... what gives?
As of the Lady Penitent trilogy's conclusion, certain Drow of the Miyeritari bloodline were "redeemed" and returned to the forms of Dark Elves, which all Drow were prior to the Descent. They have lighter skin and dark hair, and are, from what I've gathered, accepted more easily than Drow. The term Dark Elf now refers strictly to these "redeemed drow" (as well as retaining its pre-Descent origins).
As of the Lady Penitent trilogy's conclusion, certain Drow of the Miyeritari bloodline were "redeemed" and returned to the forms of Dark Elves, which all Drow were prior to the Descent. They have lighter skin and dark hair, and are, from what I've gathered, accepted more easily than Drow. The term Dark Elf now refers strictly to these "redeemed drow" (as well as retaining its pre-Descent origins).
Ah, I see. This is what happens when one ignores the novels of a campaign setting, I suppose...
So would these so-called "dark elves" use eladrin or elf stats?
Ah, I see. This is what happens when one ignores the novels of a campaign setting, I suppose...
So would these so-called "dark elves" use eladrin or elf stats?
Jury's still out on this one. Though I believe that the Dark Elves have been labeled as an offset/cousin of the Green Elves, so I'm going to go with Elf.
... Okay, I'm confused here.
I keep seeing both "drow" and "dark elf" tossed around as if they were terms referring to two different things. I was always under the impression that drow are dark elves, and that "drow" is just another word for it.
So... what gives?
-Dark Elf is, in general D&D, a term that is used to describe Drow, yes. However, in the Forgotten Realms (and, in other Crystal Spheres, but other those places that we know of don't have books about them, or anything like that), Dark Elves are/were "the predecessors" of the Drow, in the Forgotten Realms, with the Dark Elves being cursed in -10,000, because of the actions of Ilythiir, resulting in them transforming into Drow.
-You'll have to excuse me for not going into more detail, but there's plenty of places to get the "full scoop". Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves and Evermeet: Island of Elves were the first two sources to describe and include Dark Elves. Elves of Faerûn is a compilation of all sources, and you'll find the most info on the race (Dark Elves/Drow) there.
Ah, I see. This is what happens when one ignores the novels of a campaign setting, I suppose...
So would these so-called "dark elves" use eladrin or elf stats?
-Dark Elves would use, in 4e, 'Elf' stats. Until AGHotR, Dark Elves were believed to be their own subrace of Elves. AGHotR retconned things (in so much as it altered the status quo by introducing the new concept, which was seen as coming way out from left field almost universally) to make it that Dark Elves were not actually their own subrace, but that 'Dark Elf' just a term for the darker skinned Green Elves (Wood/"Wild" Elves) from the Ilythiir tribe- hence "Dark Elves". Since, in 4e, Green Elves (Wood/"Wild Elves") would use the 'Elf' stats, so too would Dark Elves.
-Dark Elves would use, in 4e, 'Elf' stats. Until AGHotR, Dark Elves were believed to be their own subrace of Elves. AGHotR retconned things (in so much as it altered the status quo by introducing the new concept, which was seen as coming way out from left field almost universally) to make it that Dark Elves were not actually their own subrace, but that 'Dark Elf' just a term for the darker skinned Green Elves (Wood/"Wild" Elves) from the Ilythiir tribe- hence "Dark Elves". Since, in 4e, Green Elves (Wood/"Wild Elves") would use the 'Elf' stats, so too would Dark Elves.
Come to the think of it. The original concept and appeal of the Dark Elves is to present an evil counterpart of the Elves. Now that the "Dark Elf" is just another not-necessarily evil Elf race and the High Elves are no longer Elves, the whole idea of a continuous good vs. evil civil war within the Elf race is largely destroyed.
Come to the think of it. The original concept and appeal of the Dark Elves is to present an evil counterpart of the Elves. Now that the "Dark Elf" is just another not-necessarily evil Elf race and the High Elves are no longer Elves, the whole idea of a continuous good vs. evil civil war within the Elf race is largely destroyed.
-Drow would be evil counterparts of Elves. Dark Elves, in the original texts, were not evil beings, as Drow are. The Dark Elves, their story, as a whole, would be more of a story of about corruption, from power, with religion, with fundamentalism...
Have you considered making a Play by Post (PbP) game or looking for one somewhere?
Play by Post Haven
Most gms that I have seen will make some exceptions to the rules. In one 4th edition PbP game I am playing a cleric who is a heretic of the dead orcish god Ilneval. (Note: he is a "descendant" of a "3rd edition" character who was a cleric of Ilneval with heretic of the faith feat and now is on the path for the Twiceborn Leader paragon path...) I also believe the new Divine Power has a side-bar discussing the worship of dead deities. The point is that I believe there are some opportunities to play in a continuing 4th edition campaign where she might be available.
Look into an available game and ask the gm.
-Drow would be evil counterparts of Elves. Dark Elves, in the original texts, were not evil beings, as Drow are. The Dark Elves, their story, as a whole, would be more of a story of about corruption, from power, with religion, with fundamentalism...
That sounds more like the High Elves in Aryvandaar to me.
Anyhow, isn't the Drow a synonym for the Dark Elves originally in the Grayhawk setting?
That sounds more like the High Elves in Aryvandaar to me.
Anyhow, isn't the Drow a synonym for the Dark Elves originally in the Grayhawk setting?
Here is the lore section of the FR setting, so who cares about GH as long as there is an explanation of the FR itself? In universe told, drow is explained as being a cuss word for certain elves, originated during the Second Crown War, where the Ilythiiri were called dhaerow (means things like traitor) and this was transformed into the short form drow.
Here is the lore section of the FR setting, so who cares about GH as long as there is an explanation of the FR itself? In universe told, drow is explained as being a cuss word for certain elves, originated during the Second Crown War, where the Ilythiiri were called dhaerow (means things like traitor) and this was transformed into the short form drow.
In the future, please make sure you understand the context of a conversation and refrain from posting irrelevant responses if you are to post anything at all.
-Drow would be evil counterparts of Elves. Dark Elves, in the original texts, were not evil beings, as Drow are. The Dark Elves, their story, as a whole, would be more of a story of about corruption, from power, with religion, with fundamentalism...
Which "original texts" do you refer to?
That sounds more like the High Elves in Aryvandaar to me.
-I think the "story" of Aryvandaar would be something more akin to "Absolute power corrupts, absolutely". Aryvandaar, and her devolution into the Vyshaan Empire, doesn't contain that many elements of religion. The Vyshaanti were secretly being empowered by Malkizid, sure, but his influence was mainly behind the scenes. Aryvandaar, it doesn't have the religious influence that the Dark Elves/Drow fall had.
Anyhow, isn't the Drow a synonym for the Dark Elves originally in the Grayhawk setting?
-I couldn't tell you; I'm not a Grayhawk fan.
Which "original texts" do you refer to?
-Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves.
Chaos
-Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves.
Going by your previous comment, I'm inclined to say that your read quite a bit into the scant notes about the pre-Descent dark elves and their culture. We've but a few notes about where they came from and afterwards we essentially go straight into warfare with other Realms - Miyeritar dark elves apart. TGHotR and Lady Penitent tell quite a different story though, with corruption coming pretty late before "the fall". Hence I was wondering which sources (any new ones, perhaps?
) you were referring to. But we've gone through this old routine before and there's no need to repeat it.Going by your previous comment, I'm inclined to say that your read quite a bit into the scant notes about the pre-Descent dark elves and their culture.
-Not particularly, no. The Dark Elves, given the way they were presented, they're not inherently evil (ie, nature, instead of nurture). Just like Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Wood Elves, and so on, all of the other subraces.
-Not particularly, no. The Dark Elves, given the way they were presented, they're not inherently evil (ie, nature, instead of nurture). Just like Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Wood Elves, and so on, all of the other subraces.
It's a good guess, sure, but we simply don't know that, though.
It's a good guess, sure, but we simply don't know that, though.
-Given the fact that some worshiped Eilistraee (though, a minority), as evidenced in Evermeet: Island of Elves, going by D&D rules, they couldn't be inherently evil. In D&D, there are the rules defining just what exactly 'good' is, what exactly 'evil' is, rules barring 'evil' things for worshipping 'good', 'good' from 'evil'. Societal pressures, dictated whether or not one was 'good' or 'evil', like most races. Only certain extraplanar creatures, who represent certain objective forces incarnate (Demons: Chaotic Evil, Yugoloth: Neutral Evil, Devils: Lawful Evil, and so on...) have their alignment dictated to them, based on what they are.
-Not particularly, no. The Dark Elves, given the way they were presented, they're not inherently evil (ie, nature, instead of nurture). Just like Sun Elves, Moon Elves, Wood Elves, and so on, all of the other subraces.
Just as the High Elves are not inherently good. However, what I am refering to is the predominant culture of the race rather than any sort of biologically-programmed alignment.
Just as the High Elves are not inherently good. However, what I am refering to is the predominant culture of the race rather than any sort of biologically-programmed alignment.
-Right, I said as much. With Dark Elves, culturally, there were apparently four overall socio-political groups: the Eilistraeeans, who were in all likelihood similar to current day worshipers, in terms of outlook and alignment, and all of that. Then there were the Vhaeraunians, who, again, were probably similar, in terms of alignment and outlook. There's the Ghaunadaurans, like Ka'Narlist, and other members of Atorrnash's upper-elite. They were, judging by how Ka'Narlist acted, fairly evil. And then, of course, there's the Lolthites, who were also evil.
-The Eilistraeeans were always a minority, given what Eilistraee said to Sharlario and Cornaith Moonflower, in Evermeet: Island of Elves. Vhaeraun seemed to appeal to, and be worshiped by most, until Lolth got involved, which was likely around -24,000 DR, after the Sundering, when Atorrnash was swept away, and the Ilythiiri reshuffled their nation. The same thing with Ghaunadaur, though his worship might have fallen away somewhat before the Sundering, when Ka'Narlist changed his divine patron to Lolth, abandoning Ghaunadaur. And, finally, Lolth was never really a player in the sociopolitics of the Dark Elves until at the very earliest -24,400 DR, when she first discovered Realmspace, and the Dark Elves living on Abeir-Toril. Ascendancy of the Last contains a continuity error* in having a Temple to Araushnee present on Faerûn that supposedly dates back to -30,000, meaning that Lolth (Araushnee) could have been active on Abeir-Toril at this point in time but (A) she didn't yet know of it's existence, and (B) there were no Dark Elves (her primary worshipers, as we understand it) to build such a place.
-By the time Ilythiir began rising into prominence once more, after the Sundering, it was firmly in the clutches of Lolth- if not the majority of those living in the empire, those doing the actual ruling, such as House Sethomiir, were. On that matter, I always see things akin to Nazi Germany- the people of Germany followed Hitler in his war waging, but the general populace were not evil; the leadership that determined policy was.
*Others have attempted to explain away and rectify the gaffe, but any biases aside, I cannot accept their reasoning, being as that, small or large, they all have flaws.
Again, you missed the point. I was refering to the concept of the Dark Elves when it was first introduced in D&D.
-As I already said, I'm not a Grayhawk fan, and because their apparent origins stem from Grayhawk, I can't talk about them one way or another. "Grayhawkian" Dark Elves/Drow differ from the Forgotten Realms' Dark Elves/Drow, being as that 'ours' have different origin stories anyway, so it's apples and oranges, is what it comes down to, in comparisons.
-As I already said, I'm not a Grayhawk fan, and because their apparent origins stem from Grayhawk, I can't talk about them one way or another. "Grayhawkian" Dark Elves/Drow differ from the Forgotten Realms' Dark Elves/Drow, being as that 'ours' have different origin stories anyway, so it's apples and oranges, is what it comes down to, in comparisons.
The original point I was trying to convey is that the concept of Dark Elves as introduced by Gary Gyrax has been mangled out of shape by each subsequent attempt by the current design team to introduce coolness to the Elven race.
The whole story of Crown Wars and the Illythiri is fine prior to 4E because the Dark Elves were all Drow and for all intents + purposes they were evil in the modern times of previous editions. But now, the Elf race is further cut into 2 categories and now the Dark Elves are presumably non-evil and separate from the Drow. It's like retconing the Devils to being some non-evil race and the Baatezu as being some other creatures altogether.
The whole story of Crown Wars and the Illythiri is fine prior to 4E because the Dark Elves were all Drow and for all intents + purposes they were evil in the modern times of previous editions. But now, the Elf race is further cut into 2 categories and now the Dark Elves are presumably non-evil and separate from the Drow. It's like retconing the Devils to being some non-evil race and the Baatezu as being some other creatures altogether.
You're not right. The Ilythiiri dark elves were evil, but the Miyeritari weren't. They were all changed into drow and the dark elf meant drow further.
As for making the dark elves in 4e, I disagree too. Why the heck did they get retconned to Miyeritari?!
Devils and baatezu are another matter altogether.
The original point I was trying to convey is that the concept of Dark Elves as introduced by Gary Gyrax has been mangled out of shape by each subsequent attempt by the current design team to introduce coolness to the Elven race.
-Alright, gotcha, but the concept of Dark Elves, as introduced by Gary Gygax- another term for 'Drow', which still is used, albeit as a misnomer, technically- has never really applied specifically to the Forgotten Realms. When Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves came out, written by Steve Schend, the term was specifically defined in the Forgotten Realms as the un-cursed Drow who existed before -10,000 DR. Since then, the term continued, and continues to define this specific group of Elves. Only Brian James (presumably) in Grand History of the Realms tampered and altered the concept, being that, until that book, Dark Elves were universally accepted as being a separate subrace of Elves, not a specific group of Wood/"Wild" Elves who were darker skinned than most.
The whole story of Crown Wars and the Illythiri is fine prior to 4E because the Dark Elves were all Drow and for all intents + purposes they were evil in the modern times of previous editions. But now, the Elf race is further cut into 2 categories and now the Dark Elves are presumably non-evil and separate from the Drow. It's like retconing the Devils to being some non-evil race and the Baatezu as being some other creatures altogether.
-I'll be honest, I'm having trouble following where you're going, because you're all over the place. Rule wise, Dark Elves and Drow have ALWAYS been separate, in the Forgotten Realms- it was only recently that we learned that Dark Elves were simply Green/Wood/"Wild" Elves. Before that, they were universally believed to be, in the Forgotten Realms, another subrace, albeit one with stats that were not available. Having separate stats wouldn't/doesn't ruin the continuity of the Crown Wars, then or now.
-I agree that I find it stupid what the 4e rules did to the total Elven race, making 'Elves', 'Eladrin', and 'Drow' three separate races, in a technical sense, but having separate rules for them doesn't throw out continuity, necessarily. They can be defined as 'Eladrin' in the 4e rules, but they're still Sun, Moon and Star Elves who did everything they've done, historically. They can be defined as 'Elves' in the 4e rules, but they're still Wood/"Wild" and Dark Elves, Elves who did everything they've done, historically. And so on.
You're not right. The Ilythiiri dark elves were evil, but the Miyeritari weren't. They were all changed into drow and the dark elf meant drow further.
Wonder why LK hasn't dropped in here? Originally, the Ilythiiri (by his line of thought) weren't any more evil (by default) than any other races, elven or not - fiends apart. They might have been militaristic and out to conquer the world, but that also holds true for the suns of Aryvandaar (no, LK, we do not know when they became "evil" megalomaniacs, same with the Ilythiiri though). Reading the story as told in LP, the suns were actually the more volatile and had the Ilythiiri on their knees, hence the latter asked for help from the Dark Mother, who sent Wendonai. The rest - i.e. the "corruption" of the dark elves - is history. Going by that, warlike they may have been, but the Ilythiiri weren't "evil" from the word "go".
As for the 4E "dark elves", some new sourcebook or novel will surely present us with their "history" sooner or later.
As for the 4E "dark elves", some new sourcebook or novel will surely present us with their "history" sooner or later.
Extremely doubtful, as has already been pointed out in another thread most of the new 4E material is not being focused on things that have happened well in the past or even that much on previous continuity. Most of the new novels and the material published in dragon (there will be no further FR sourcebooks) has focused largely on 4E specific stuff like returned Abeir (Cormyr and the Moonshaes excepted) or similar additions.
I doubt an article on "Dark Elves" is even the slightest priority over the billions of other things they need to do first.
I doubt an article on "Dark Elves" is even the slightest priority over the billions of other things they need to do first.
Agreed. We've still got many areas to cover, and Dark Elves 101 doesn't strike me as particularly worthwhile at this stage in the game. Maybe somewhere down the road, but not anytime soon, in my opinion.
The Underdark Sourcebook might (please note that I said might, not will) have something about this controversy.
No it won't, because it is a core book and not FR. Given that books that would normally be perfectly logical to have sidebars about setting specific things (Manual of the Planes and Divine Power) don't, it would be extremely unlikely that Underdark will use page space on differentiating Dark Elves from Drow for FR.
No it won't, because it is a core book and not FR. Given that books that would normally be perfectly logical to have sidebars about setting specific things (Manual of the Planes and Divine Power) don't, it would be extremely unlikely that Underdark will use page space on differentiating Dark Elves from Drow for FR.
At best, we'll get that little sidebar, which won't mention anything we didn't already know. To be honest, though, I don't know if they've even put much thought into the whole "Dark Elves in the new age" thing, other than "Drizzt is still Drizzt, buckaroos."
-Alright, gotcha, but the concept of Dark Elves, as introduced by Gary Gygax- another term for 'Drow', which still is used, albeit as a misnomer, technically- has never really applied specifically to the Forgotten Realms. When Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves came out, written by Steve Schend, the term was specifically defined in the Forgotten Realms as the un-cursed Drow who existed before -10,000 DR. Since then, the term continued, and continues to define this specific group of Elves. Only Brian James (presumably) in Grand History of the Realms tampered and altered the concept, being that, until that book, Dark Elves were universally accepted as being a separate subrace of Elves, not a specific group of Wood/"Wild" Elves who were darker skinned than most.
Indeed. It is through the introduction of Crown Wars that we start having new definitions for Drow and Dark Elves :/
-I'll be honest, I'm having trouble following where you're going, because you're all over the place. Rule wise, Dark Elves and Drow have ALWAYS been separate, in the Forgotten Realms- it was only recently that we learned that Dark Elves were simply Green/Wood/"Wild" Elves. Before that, they were universally believed to be, in the Forgotten Realms, another subrace, albeit one with stats that were not available. Having separate stats wouldn't/doesn't ruin the continuity of the Crown Wars, then or now.
-I agree that I find it stupid what the 4e rules did to the total Elven race, making 'Elves', 'Eladrin', and 'Drow' three separate races, in a technical sense, but having separate rules for them doesn't throw out continuity, necessarily. They can be defined as 'Eladrin' in the 4e rules, but they're still Sun, Moon and Star Elves who did everything they've done, historically. They can be defined as 'Elves' in the 4e rules, but they're still Wood/"Wild" and Dark Elves, Elves who did everything they've done, historically. And so on.
Well again the issue is not about continuity, it's about style... about how the original concept of the Dark Elves being an evil evil counterpart of the Elves has become so complicated and out of shape. Even before 4E, we have the "redemption" of the Dark Elven race thus already removing their role as badasses. With the Dark Elves just being another race of Elves, what's so special about them now... and I am talking about after Lady Penitent and before 4E.
I finally finished the Lady Penitent series (right after GenCon).
I checked the tekst, and it actually does not explicitly say that all Eilistraeeans, without exception, were transformed.
In fact, the text specifically allows for exceptions. The only actual statement of the faitful of Eilistraee being changed as well is by the spirits in the kiira. Q'arlynd asks the sprits if they are certain... but he never gets an answer (since he is interrupted). Which may imply that they weren't so sure...
I also asked some people from R&D at GenCon, and they agreed that exceptions are possible (and that I can use them if needed).
So without conflicts arising,I'll continue to cast Yelirra Am'benuinyl as a drow (former) worshipper of Eilistraee.
Gomez
So how would you device her "stick" i.e her Sworddancer channel divinity power?
Radiant damage imbued swordattacks seem fitting. Or something that damages or weakens shapeshifters...
For Yelirra?
I have not yet determined if she can channel divinity or has prayers. I haven't statted her out - not yet needed, as she is not an adversary.
If I would stat her out, I would do it as the designers do: stat her as a monster and give her the right powers. She would likely be an elite, with a sword dance power (radiant if I choose to give her divine powers) that targets several people (i.e. shift her speed and attack everyone along the path where she dances). Either at-will or recharge 4/5/6. She would be an 11th level skirmisher.
Not sure if it would be useful. She is an ally and PCs have no reason to fight her.
Gomez
Do a campaign that PC are involved to make her return.
So how would you device her "stick" i.e her Sworddancer channel divinity power?
Radiant damage imbued swordattacks seem fitting. Or something that damages or weakens shapeshifters...
Another nifty (IMO) thought is for the channel divinity power to be a move action that acts like a shift and allows entry into the same space as an enemy. The character really could be dancing with her adversaries.
I did something similar as a power for a 4th edition npc that was based off a third edition idea: servant of the fallen divine disciple of Inanna, a goddess of war and fertility. In ancient Mesopotamia, battle was referred to as the Dance of Inanna. So, it seemed natural to give her a movement based power that would act as a shift and allow passage through a space occupied by an enemy.
Perhaps it could be staggered by tier: start with slide/shift move in heroic, add movement through an enemy occupied space at paragon, and then allow a melee basic (or any power useable in place of a melee basic) to be used at anytime during the movement for epic. How strong or weak this would be might take some guesswork, though.
Just a thought.
I like that idea. The sworddancers tricksy slides should be at will though, to emphasize their nimbleness. As a npc/monster power this wouldn't be too powerfull but as a pc power it might. Are recharge mechanics for pc's inplace yet?