I won't go into details about how hard it is for me to even consider playing 4th ed, and I'm sure almost every bit of criticism I can think of has already been said, but I really believe they should change this.
Give me a show of support if you think it was wrong to arbitrarily kill off Eilistraee?
Give me a show of support if you think it was wrong to arbitrarily kill off Eilistraee?
I'm going to assume the role of Cyric's Priest, here.
I loved Eli really. She was an awesome goddess and she created a very interesting storytelling role in the setting with her followers who were Drow and yet not evil. No longer were Drizzt clones something that had no in-setting justification. Ed Greenwood created a wonderful character here (I'd like to rebuttal people I've seen posting that thought Gary Gygax created her or R.A. Salvatore. She's a purely Realms deity and not part of the original Drow worship).
However, I have no real problem with her death either because it's nice to see that evil win for a change. The Shades will never be able to hold a candle to the Zhentariam and, no matter how many centuries it takes, the entire world will bow before the Iron Boot of Fzoul Chembryl. Likewise, it's nice to see Lolth manage to achieve something important by winning her long running battle against her errant children.
Really, I think that a great deal of it might be based on a desire to finally get rid of the racism inherent in the Drow concept. For years, we've had Light Elves=Good and Dark Elves=Bad. Even with the addition of Eli, it was always the 800 pound elephant in the room. Even when Gold Elves were canonically written as being Dark Skinned, people seemed to utterly miss this and assume Dark Elves were not totally different in skin tone (it's one of the major comments that ****ed me off against the D&D movie's complainers. I heard it in the theatre that he was angry the heroic Elf Woman was black and its the one complaint that made me want to fly over my seat and start punching the guy----I'm weird, I know but that kind of racism has no place in our hobby).
With the fact that D&D is now played by multiple ethnicities, it's nice to have Elves of all colors available and the genuine Dark Elves who worship Lolth being inhuman shadowy skinned monsters like Shades as opposed to something that people can confuse for a real racial subtype.
I'll miss Eli and her Chosen One. However, there's something nice about the fact that Drow really are that horrible again.
I'm going to assume the role of Cyric's Priest, here.
I loved Eli really. She was an awesome goddess and she created a very interesting storytelling role in the setting with her followers who were Drow and yet not evil. No longer were Drizzt clones something that had no in-setting justification. Ed Greenwood created a wonderful character here (I'd like to rebuttal people I've seen posting that thought Gary Gygax created her or R.A. Salvatore. She's a purely Realms deity and not part of the original Drow worship).
However, I have no real problem with her death either because it's nice to see that evil win for a change. The Shades will never be able to hold a candle to the Zhentariam and, no matter how many centuries it takes, the entire world will bow before the Iron Boot of Fzoul Chembryl. Likewise, it's nice to see Lolth manage to achieve something important by winning her long running battle against her errant children.
Really, I think that a great deal of it might be based on a desire to finally get rid of the racism inherent in the Drow concept. For years, we've had Light Elves=Good and Dark Elves=Bad. Even with the addition of Eli, it was always the 800 pound elephant in the room. Even when Gold Elves were canonically written as being Dark Skinned, people seemed to utterly miss this and assume Dark Elves were not totally different in skin tone (it's one of the major comments that ****ed me off against the D&D movie's complainers. I heard it in the theatre that he was angry the heroic Elf Woman was black and its the one complaint that made me want to fly over my seat and start punching the guy----I'm weird, I know but that kind of racism has no place in our hobby).
With the fact that D&D is now played by multiple ethnicities, it's nice to have Elves of all colors available and the genuine Dark Elves who worship Lolth being inhuman shadowy skinned monsters like Shades as opposed to something that people can confuse for a real racial subtype.
I'll miss Eli and her Chosen One. However, there's something nice about the fact that Drow really are that horrible again.
Then why is Drizz't one of those shadowy skinned monsters? By keeping him as a drow rather than a dark elf you defeat the purpose of separating the two, because shadowy skinned drow still exist that are good.
Another point of fact is that Eilistraee has been around a long time. She's got more of her own fan sites than lolths does. She's more popular and more a part of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting then people seem to want to realise. i for one only became interested in the drow at all because of her. Until I read about her, the drow were just another race of bad guys to be kill, much like the yuan ti. But suddenly they had depth to them. Maybe they weren't all bad? Maybe they could be redeemed. This has nothing to do with Driz'zt. As a matter of fact it was Drizt clones that orignally had me hating the drow. But i'm a big fan of the redemption story.
On top of that the entire method of her death was unsatisfactory. Eilistraee was a god and her Avatar was not weak. Using conventional spells there were sixteen different ways she could have avoided that sword at least. Even if she was suprised. Are we also to believe that she was so stupid that she didn't have a contingency. The entire thing wreaks of insult to an otherwise noble character and concept.
Looking at the direction foruth ed seems to be going there is a whole lot of bad guys winning. Mystra is getting killed. Cyric is on the rise with Shar. How many other good gods are going to be exterminated by their evil counterparts?
MY point is I can't help but hate the outcome of this story. Its nice and all that the good drow had their "curse" lifted. But killing off a goddess just to facilitate their new system doesn't seem right. I say the same thing about Mystra too. They're molding the world to fit the system when i believe the system should be molded to fit the world. One of my favorite aspects of forgotten realms was all the alterations to the rules that made the campaign setting unique. i liked that the drow were a torn people and not just a bunch of monsters to be killed on sight by the party. You can't really have complex moral RP when the drow are clearly and plainly evil so your god says it's alright. Arg...any way I'm ranting again. If anyone thinks theres anything they can say to make me feel better about this choice of Wizards, by all means let me have it.
Then why is Drizz't one of those shadowy skinned monsters? By keeping him as a drow rather than a dark elf you defeat the purpose of separating the two, because shadowy skinned drow still exist that are good.
Yes, but the point is you have an entire race of dark skinned good elves.
Yes, but the point is you have an entire race of dark skinned good elves.
That is, in my opinion, a good change. What I want to know is why Drizz't didn't change with the other good drow?
Then why is Drizz't one of those shadowy skinned monsters? By keeping him as a drow rather than a dark elf you defeat the purpose of separating the two, because shadowy skinned drow still exist that are good.
I don't think he is.
I imagine its just a mistake since it was fairly clear that the two were seperated.
Even if he is, it's just his idiom. It still has created a substantial number of dark skinned Elves for people of varying racial skin tones to play as opposed to all Dark=Evil.
MY point is I can't help but hate the outcome of this story. Its nice and all that the good drow had their "curse" lifted. But killing off a goddess just to facilitate their new system doesn't seem right.
You're making a common fallacy here, Tazman3000. I'm not suggesting your points are invalid but I want to point out something you're making an erroneous assumption. Eli wasn't killed to facillitate changes for 4E. Her death WAS a change of 4E.
I'm not going to speculate on Richard Baker's motivations but the fact is that there's no particular reason why Eli was killed for 4E changes. There's no rule that is particularly invalidated by her. Instead, he seems to have chosen to kill her for his own reasons INDEPENDENT of the rules changes of 4E.
Her death was a part of the story he wanted to tell and the new Realms he wanted to make. THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT or any better, but I wanted to make sure we were clear on that. I, myself, am always leery of killing Greenwood characters let alone strong female goddesses.
You can't really have complex moral RP when the drow are clearly and plainly evil so your god says it's alright. Arg...any way I'm ranting again. If anyone thinks theres anything they can say to make me feel better about this choice of Wizards, by all means let me have it.
Bizarrely, all races are supposed to no longer be Evil Plain and Simple from the 8th Dimension (Thank you Buckaroo Banzai). So, the Drow aren't anymore evil than they were before. At least, that's how I think it's supposed to be.
I'm not disputing Eli's popularity as a character or Mystra's either. Both characters are arguably the most famous deities in the Forgotten Realm with only Bane and Cyric probably having anything approaching the name recognition (excluding Bhaal because of Baldur's Gate and the gods Kelemvor and Myrkul because of Neverwinter Nights). It's a strange choice to kill those two and I honestly am curious why.
Overall, I think it might have been partially because of racial motivations. Also, as part of an attempt to restore Lolth's villainous credibility.
My personal opinion? I think that Eli's story was told and it'll be important to see the return of the focus between Lolth/Sehaine/Corellon's feud as opposed to crippling her with her battle with her children. I think the Seldarine effectively got side-tracked from their feud with the Spider Queen because they tried to portray Eli as her archnemesis when Corellon will always be such.
If there's still going to be redeemed Drow, it'll probably be through the very similiar Sehaine character rather than Eli. Sehaine might well adopt most of Eli's lost portfolio and role in the pantheon.
I don't think he is.
I imagine its just a mistake since it was fairly clear that the two were seperated.
Even if he is, it's just his idiom. It still has created a substantial number of dark skinned Elves for people of varying racial skin tones to play as opposed to all Dark=Evil.
Yet they ignore the avariels.
That is, in my opinion, a good change. What I want to know is why Drizz't didn't change with the other good drow?
Didn't he?
Possible answers include.
1. It's a mistake that will be fixed.
2. He worshiped Mielikki not Eli and that's why he didn't change.
3. Drizzt is the Chosen of Lolth, whether he likes it or not.
4. Drizzt chose not to because he's **** about not being judged by the color of his skin.
They needed the Drow to be a classic Planet of Hats trope, a bunch of evil spider worshipping monsters. So they killed off any other deity, apart from Lolth.
I mean, the DM gets to decide how the campaign is run, right? Just keep Eilistraee around if you want to. It's not like Wizards of the Coast is gonna throw you in Guantanamo Bay or something.
Sure, they might hook up your gentles to a car battery, but it's worth it in the long run if it improves your gaming experience.
Rather, to clarify, I'm not stating that they have said that, but that it has been inferred by posters here, or suggested.
The general line of thought here is that Drizzt was originally 'special', the exception to the Drow as monsters rule, and that the introduction of Eilistraee diluted both of these things. Personally, I think it's a fallacy - and in fact, I'd hazard to guess that Drizzt himself being spotlighted so heavily is the root cause of far more problems (or at least, worse ones) than Eilistraee ever was. One need only consider all of the Drizzt-clones that have popped up in both tabletop games and in MMOs to see this influence.
I do think that Eilistraee could have changed in many ways to adapt. Personally, I would not have even cared had she changed with her followers, and would have been willing to accept Eilistraee as a non-deity servitor/angel of Corellon, in some capacity relating to the elves and dark elves. She could have been easily relegated to lesser sourcebooks, removed from all but brief mention in the main books (since there is a drive for a smaller pantheon of gods to 'simplify' things) - and this would have still left open room for those people who are devoted fans to simply continue to use her as a deity in their games.
Instead, she's deliberately and forcefully removed, in a manner that has left the majority of the fans interested in her shocked and upset (or so I've gathered). It has led directly to some of them, who previously were neutral on 4th Edition Rules/FR, to decide that they have no interest at all now. This, to me, is typical of some of the things that I view as having been handled very poorly by WotC with regard to making the 4e FR changes.
And hey - it's their game. They can do with it what they want. I just wish it still felt like 'our game', the way it once did for me.
I was not a big fan of her. Even though I thought it was good that she gave female drow a way to get out of drow society I think she should have been more open to men and women. This would have made her religion stronger and she would have been able to beat Lloth in the long run. Her own shortsightedness killed her in the end relying just on women worshippers.
She should have gotter Vaheraun under her belt to aqcuire male worshippers or just have been more openminded than Lloth was. She fell into Lloths trap but she did not have the "god juice" to back it up.
She was never gray. Mask and Helm are alot more gray in terms of worshippers than Elly was.
It's a good thing you don't have to do what the books say if you don't want to.
I mean, the DM gets to decide how the campaign is run, right? Just keep Eilistraee around if you want to.
I could make all the gods of FR into fluffy purple bunnies if I wanted, in my game. It is, after all, my game.
However, there comes a point when I have so many things I have to shoehorn back into the setting that I start to ask myself, is it worth it? Is it worth buying 4th Edition FR sourcebooks when I might get a much better-suited world by using the older edition versions, saving myself some money in the bargain? Or, even more radically, simply using Eilistraee and the elements that I liked in a world of my own, or transplanting them elsewhere.
With that being said, why should I use a setting made by a company that has shown it's not interested in catering to any of the things I want, and may very well make things difficult for me again in the future?
...With that being said, why should I use a setting made by a company that has shown it's not interested in catering to any of the things I want, and may very well make things difficult for me again in the future?
Well, that's up to you. I guess you probably shouldn't play Forgotten Realms if it's not what you're after.
Of course, fluff is easier to fix than mechanical changes, so you could theoretically just use the 4e core books with the 3.5 (or whatever edition you prefer) FR Campaign Setting book.
Well, that's up to you. I guess you probably shouldn't play Forgotten Realms if it's not what you're after.
Of course, fluff is easier to fix than mechanical changes, so you could theoretically just use the 4e core books with the 3.5 (or whatever edition you prefer) FR Campaign Setting book.
Aye, it's been said before on other threads that it's not all that difficult to use the 4th edition rules with the Pre-Spellplague Realms. The only problems I forsee would be changing NPC's stats to fit 4e rules, but even that isn't hard, just a little time consuming if your expecting to use them in battles and what-not.
Yes, but the point is you have an entire race of dark skinned good elves.
I remains to be seen whether they are good. The Illythiri were dark elves, and they weren' particularly good (though the gold elves were pretty nasty at the time as well).
Racial tension can be an interesting element in a setting or story. It is very distracting, and somehwat disturbing, when people are going to mirror that tension with real world racial tension - especially when they attribute the tension to skin color.
Gomez
Of course, fluff is easier to fix than mechanical changes, so you could theoretically just use the 4e core books with the 3.5 (or whatever edition you prefer) FR Campaign Setting book.
Before the release of the core books I said the same, but now I've seen, that even the rules have changed too much. When I have to remake nearly all good outsiders, dragons, some races etc. why should I buy the FR books? Just because they maybe have paragon paths for Harper Agents and Red Wizards? I doubt that's wothwile....
I did like her as the Masked Lady better but I am kinda glad she is gone. I found her brother much more interesting. I have a feeling we haven't totally seen the last of her. I have a feeling she serves under Corellon as a lesser divine being.
I know how it is to lose a deity that you like (Mystra), but in your own campaign you can always say they are still around.
At least Eilistraee had alot of novels written about her clergy, poor Leira never had any.
Am I the only one who has a problem with this? I understand they wanted to cut down on gods but why the heck are they cutting down on Eilistraee who was by far one of the most interesting of drow deities? ?
Coz she died? Just coz she's interesting doesn't mean she can't die. And just because she died doesn't make the setting boring.
Take Dragonlance for example, Raistlin/Caramon and the Heroes of the Lance were all interesting characters....in the end, they all ended up dying one by one. And I'm now reading the new heroes: Mina, Dhamon, Palin, Dalamar etc.
In Naruto, Jiraiya was an interesting fellow, well...he died, and I don't have any problem about it.
In FR Mystra, The Earthmother, Myrkul were all interesting gods, they all died.
I am curious how the whole "Eli's faith is sexist" came about to be honest.
-What do you mean by "came about to be honest"?
In FR Mystra, The Earthmother, Myrkul were all interesting gods, they all died.
-Over the course of the thousands of years the setting has had, plenty of deities have risen and fallen. The thing most people dislike about Eilistraee's death (and a few others, namely Tyr and Mystra), is that within the context of the setting, there's a lot of nonsensica and continuity problems going on. When looked at via the "metacontext" (that is, not in-game), we know WotCs plans and everything, so things make more sense. But, to us, not the people on Faerûn.
-What do you mean by "came about to be honest"?
I mean, I own the book where she first appeared. Lady Penitent seemed to WAY WAY WAY overplay the sexism element to what I saw.
It was there quite strongly on WotSQ as well
Not really. You can certainly read Ryld as the innocent victim of female sexism but it's also the simple case that he found nothing of interest in the Dark Maiden's doctrine. He was going through the motions of conversion because of his love but didn't really feel anything for her doctrine.
A: continue palying 3e and WRITE MY OWN Version of current Fr history when it comes to pen and paper gaming
B: ignore /dodge any future PC games that use DND 4.0 since WoTC wont allow any one to make pc games based off 3.5 any more (this means no NWN3 for me if Atari decides to make a nwn 3) and of coures dont forget any pc games based in 4.0 will jsut seem waaaaayy to much like WoW knock offs
(which i hate WoW as well)
C: start work on my own RP system for pen and paper, that i have been putting off for years for various reasons .
now i need to go do soemthign to get my mind off of this , becvause as far as im concerned DND is dead now
Those who love the Realms as they were have been given a choice. **** off, or conform. If we don't like it, tough, we weren't asked to stay, and aren't really wanted.
They are happy to take our money, but don't really want much else from us, and our outdated opinions.
This doesn't mean we all won't keep complaining, but I know I personally have given up. I'm trying 4e and the 4e Realms for curiosity, and then will decide whether or not to call it quits entirely.
I personally suggest anyone with lingering complaints do the same. We're not really wanted here anymore.
-RW
I mean, I own the book where she first appeared. Lady Penitent seemed to WAY WAY WAY overplay the sexism element to what I saw.
-The sexism appeared in Demihuman Deities, when we see (rather, the book strongly implies, via using female-pronouns only, concerning her church, which means the absence of males) that Eilistraee has no males working as 'official' members of her Church. What we seen in the WotSQ series, and the LP series, is simply a "personification" of all of this.
A: continue palying 3e and WRITE MY OWN Version of current Fr history when it comes to pen and paper gaming
B: ignore /dodge any future PC games that use DND 4.0 since WoTC wont allow any one to make pc games based off 3.5 any more (this means no NWN3 for me if Atari decides to make a nwn 3) and of coures dont forget any pc games based in 4.0 will jsut seem waaaaayy to much like WoW knock offs
(which i hate WoW as well)
C: start work on my own RP system for pen and paper, that i have been putting off for years for various reasons .
now i need to go do soemthign to get my mind off of this , becvause as far as im concerned DND is dead now
Well as loathe as I am to admit it, the simple answer is it doesn't matter.
Those who love the Realms as they were have been given a choice. **** off, or conform. If we don't like it, tough, we weren't asked to stay, and aren't really wanted.
They are happy to take our money, but don't really want much else from us, and our outdated opinions.
This doesn't mean we all won't keep complaining, but I know I personally have given up. I'm trying 4e and the 4e Realms for curiosity, and then will decide whether or not to call it quits entirely.
I personally suggest anyone with lingering complaints do the same. We're not really wanted here anymore.
-RW
-Right...If you don't like the changes, you don't have to use them in your own games, or even accept them, really.
Thank you.
Am I the only one who has a problem with this?
*laughs* No. I've already said my piece on the issue though.
I don't like it either, but I don't like a lot of stuff that's come down the pipe.I'm sure there have been similar threads already posted...
Yes, there have been.
However, I have no real problem with her death either because it's nice to see that evil win for a change.
It's not exactly a "change", especially lately.
Really, I think that a great deal of it might be based on a desire to finally get rid of the racism inherent in the Drow concept. For years, we've had Light Elves=Good and Dark Elves=Bad.
I've explained twice today that most surface elves aren't "lily white".
I always found Eilistraee alittle hypocritical. The fact she only wanted female "good" drow and not male "good" drow in her clergy made her seem two-faced to me. "Hey good drow! If you are female come over to my side! If you are male, burn in hell!"
Not true. The vast majority of any deity's followers are lay worshippers, not clergy. Also, according to Ed Greenwood Eilistraee did allow males to be clerics, it's just that they had to spend a significant amount of time as a female. Now, I know some people think that's stupid, but it is what it is, and it doesn't change the truth of what I just said.
-Right...If you don't like the changes, you don't have to use them in your own games, or even accept them, really.
Indeed! I'm quoting this because it's so true, and bears repeating.
The Forgotten Realms as Wizards publishes it is dead.
Eilistraee isn't dead.
The Forgotten Realms as Wizards publishes it is dead.
This is the truth of it. Keep her alive if ya want. Whatever works for your game.
The whole part where she transforms the men into women really doesn't help her gain new followers or build her powerbase. I be tons of neutralish drow went to Vaerhaun just so they didn't have to be a slave to another whacko drow goddess. I am sure they felt it was pretty crazy to be turned into a women as well as just another form of religious slavery. "Oh your equal now with us females but here's the thing..." There were probably many potential followers that decided that male drow god wasthe way to go because those rules. Just saying it wasn't a real good way to maker her religion look all that open and appealing, especially to a drow male who felt like a slave all of his life.
Indeed! I'm quoting this because it's so true, and bears repeating.
-I get it from you! :D
The whole part where she transforms the men into women really doesn't help her gain new followers or build her powerbase. I be tons of neutralish drow went to Vaerhaun just so they didn't have to be a slave to another whacko drow goddess. I am sure they felt it was pretty crazy to be turned into a women as well as just another form of religious slavery. "Oh your equal now with us females but here's the thing..." There were probably many potential followers that decided that male drow god wasthe way to go because those rules. Just saying it wasn't a real good way to maker her religion look all that open and appealing, especially to a drow male who felt like a slave all of his life.
-Agreed. As I have stated many times, the "face" that Eilistraee puts on, via her clergy, is hardly the best way to attract all disenfranchised Drow.
-But, at the same time, priests are only allowed to be men, and this has never seemed to stop women from converting to Christianity.
Not true. The vast majority of any deity's followers are lay worshippers, not clergy. Also, according to Ed Greenwood Eilistraee did allow males to be clerics, it's just that they had to spend a significant amount of time as a female. Now, I know some people think that's stupid, but it is what it is, and it doesn't change the truth of what I just said.
I am not saying that it is wrong but as a male I would be insulted that a God I was worshipping would treat me differently than a female worshipper. Why should there be "special" rules for males that they have to do somrthing extra to be accepted.
Now if Eli was an evil goddess like Lolth, then I can see one type of person being more important than another. But for a CG goddess who is trying to show drow a "different" way, she seemed as "sexist" as Lolth.
I am not saying it is not the truth....I know "What is, Is" but I would just be insulted if I was a male follower of Eli. :D
Now if Eli was an evil goddess like Lolth, then I can see one type of person being more important than another. But for a CG goddess who is trying to show drow a "different" way, she seemed as "sexist" as Lolth.
Eh, I don't mind Eli being sexist. It's just a rather bizarre requirement.
Eh, I don't mind Eli being sexist. It's just a rather bizarre requirement.
-Not a very good way to attract those disenfranchised Drow males, who are seeking something other than Lolth. Especially when the goal of the game is to bring the entire Drow race "into the light", not half of it.
-I get it from you! :D
-Agreed. As I have stated many times, the "face" that Eilistraee puts on, via her clergy, is hardly the best way to attract all disenfranchised Drow.
-But, at the same time, priests are only allowed to be men, and this has never seemed to stop women from converting to Christianity.
Real life religion and fantasy religions are two seprate things. When gods in game worlds get more followers they can gain more corporeal planar power. Since there are multiple gods out there vying for followers each god really needs a good sales gimmick to gain power/followers. Not all gods need to do this (greater gods) like the lesser and demigods do. Eli really should have thought of this IMO. Vaerhaun as well I guess since his may have been a male only religion whic is rather foolish also.
Real life religion and fantasy religions are two seprate things.
-Regardless, one can use examples from either to bolster arguments, when circumstances resemble each other.
When gods in game worlds get more followers they can gain more corporeal planar power. Since there are multiple gods out there vying for followers each god really needs a good sales gimmick to gain power/followers.
-That's an angle I've never even considered. She's handicapping herself (or, allowing her clergy to handicap her) on purpose.
This is the truth of it. Keep her alive if ya want. Whatever works for your game.
She's alive in my game.
The whole part where she transforms the men into women really doesn't help her gain new followers or build her powerbase.
That might very well be true, but it still doesn't change the fact that Eilistraee does accept males as clerics.
And as I pointed out before, most of Eilistraees followers weren't clerics anyway, and wouldn't have been practicing her religious rites or other gender-related stuff.
-I get it from you! :D
:D
-But, at the same time, priests are only allowed to be men, and this has never seemed to stop women from converting to Christianity.
Great point. The vast majority of those who practice any religion are lay worshippers, and they don't have to adhere to the same strictures as priests do.
I am not saying that it is wrong but as a male I would be insulted that a God I was worshipping would treat me differently than a female worshipper. Why should there be "special" rules for males that they have to do somrthing extra to be accepted.
Once again, you are confusing Eilistraee's requirements for her priests with her requirements for her lay worshippers. Most male and female worshippers of Eilistraee are not priests, and the VAST majority of them wouldn't worship Eilistraee to the exclusion of all other gods, either (the Realms is polytheistic after all).
Since there are multiple gods out there vying for followers each god really needs a good sales gimmick to gain power/followers.
It's probably not that big of a problem when most people in the world don't worship only one god to the exclusion of all others. Even most priests of the Realms don't tell people not to worship or pray to other gods (that's per Ed Greenwood, too).
That might very well be true, but it still doesn't change the fact that Eilistraee does accept males as clerics.
-Would a male in woman's skin be a male anymore? I really don't want to know...I'm sure someone will pick this up and go on a long schpiel about it...
Great point. The vast majority of those who practice any religion are lay worshippers, and they don't have to adhere to the same strictures as priests do.
-Yup.
-Would a male in woman's skin be a male anymore? I really don't want to know...I'm sure someone will pick this up and go on a long schpiel about it...
I'm not sure if I want to know, either.
Just in case it wasn't clear, the male-to-female transformation isn't supposed to be a permanent thing--at least, that's not how I read it.
Once again, you are confusing Eilistraee's requirements for her priests with her requirements for her lay worshippers. Most male and female worshippers of Eilistraee are not priests, and the VAST majority of them wouldn't worship Eilistraee to the exclusion of all other gods, either (the Realms is polytheistic after all).
I am not talking about lay worshippers at all. I am only talking about her clergy.
If I was a male who wanted to be a priest of Eilistraee and I had to be turned into a female, I would be insulted.
I just think it is hypocritical for Eilistraee to treat her clergy members different from each other depending on sex when she is supposed to be "enlightened" and to show drow a "different way". She is just as biased as Lolth where males are treated as lesser beings. Like mother like daughter.....
Again I am not talking about her lay followers but the clergy.
I am not talking about lay worshippers at all. I am only talking about her clergy.
When you suggested that Eilistraee tells all males to "go to hell", it didn't seem that way.
If I was a male who wanted to be a priest of Eilistraee and I had to be turned into a female, I would be insulted.
Perhaps you would be. But that doesn't change the fact that you could be her cleric. Before, you asserted that wasn't the case.
Just in case it wasn't clear, the male-to-female transformation isn't supposed to be a permanent thing--at least, that's not how I read it.
-No, I don't think it is.
When you suggested that Eilistraee tells all males to "go to hell", it didn't seem that way.
To me it seems like "Oh you are a male and want to be a priest of Eilistraee? Oh well you have to be turned into a female and do all this extra stuff to be a priest." Why don't the female priestess get turned into males to join the clergy?
Again this is my opinion and I just feel Eilistraee is just as biased as Lolth when she is supposed to stand for something "better".
The apple did fall too far from the tree it seems......in the end Eilistraee manipulates her followers just like Lolth and her brother. "The sins of the parents....carried on by the kids." Kinda like a Greek tragedy! :P
I think Eilistraee had good intentions but she fell too far into the web.
The apple did fall too far from the tree it seems......in the end Eilistraee manipulates her followers just like Lolth and her brother. Kinda like a Greek tragedy! :P
-Especially when you consider that Corellon Larethian, Lolth and Sehanine Moonbow could all theoretically be siblings, and yet, all had romantic relations with each other, Eilistraee is Selvatarm's aunt, and yet, Selvatarm was developing romantic feelings for Eilistraee...
Long live Eilistraee ...
also wild elves already have dark skin
So what if her church was little discriminating, that what's made her more unique, what do you want everything black & white
also wild elves already have dark skin
I was just stating her demise was her own making in a sense. If she knew one of her main godlike enemies was Lloth she should have made her faith more appealing to women and men and fewer restrictions. Lloth and her society had alot of restrictive laws even though she was a chaotic goddess. If Eli could have been more "free" and open with her tenents of her faith she might have either won that game or broke even. That is all.
-See THISthread and THISthread for discussion about Eilistraee and Dark Elves/Drow.
Ach well, I assume we will have about a dozen new threads on this and a dark elven and a drow and a Drizzt topic over the coming tenday. Not least because of this new one - FR board streamlining (and some people's unwillingness to check the pages beyond 1 and 2 of this board).
I was just stating her demise was her own making in a sense. If she knew one of her main godlike enemies was Lloth she should have made her faith more appealing to women and men and fewer restrictions. Lloth and her society had alot of restrictive laws even though she was a chaotic goddess. If Eli could have been more "free" and open with her tenents of her faith she might have either won that game or broke even. That is all.
Exactly - we will also have to see if her "sacrifice" of her existence was worth saving the few that she did or would she have saved more if she had stayed alive.
It will depend on if Corellon picks up her followers. Corellon doesn't ever seem to involved with his followers like Lolth and Eli are.
I think Eli miscalculated and fell into Lolth's web.
I just wonder where the followers of V will go - I don't see them going to Corellon or Lolth. Maybe Mask will pick them up. Hopefully it won't be Shar.
As long as there are people believing in a god he / she / it still exists!
-Nope.
So what if her church was little discriminating, that what's made her more unique, what do you want everything black & white
-It also clashes/interferes with her dogma.
Ach well, I assume we will have about a dozen new threads on this and a dark elven and a drow and a Drizzt topic over the coming tenday. Not least because of this new one - FR board streamlining (and some people's unwillingness to check the pages beyond 1 and 2 of this board).
-Forget an unwillingness to check other pages...Try an unwillingness to check the very first page! :P
Eil's death is the greatest event to occur in Forgotten Realms, and if I had any doubts that I was going to dislike the 4th edition campaign setting, I most certainly don't now. I'll miss Helm and Vhaeraun, but Eil's death and Torm's rise in power more than make up for the losses. Eilistraee was a joke..if all those pathetic "good" and neutral drow want a deity to follow, they can worship one of the real nature deities like everyone else. Eilistraee should have never existed. Her ironic death at the hands of Hallistra is just icing on the cake.
I just wonder where the followers of V will go - I don't see them going to Corellon or Lolth. Maybe Mask will pick them up. Hopefully it won't be Shar.
I could see them converting to Ghaunadaur, as he seems to be more prominent in 4th edition. Mask would be an acceptable choice as well, though.
Firstly, she's a deity designed to turn drow into something they are not.
-The Drow were Dark Elves long before they were Drow. See Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, Evermeet: Island of the Elves, Elves of Evermeet and Elves of Faerûn.
I could see them converting to Ghaunadaur, as he seems to be more prominent in 4th edition.
-Prominent, perhaps (though, I don't see why), but he certainly seems like he'll be weaker. His iconic avatar, from the Well of Ghaunadaur in the Promenade was "banished" into a permanent Maze in Ascendancy of the Last.
-The Drow were Dark Elves long before they were Drow. See Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, Evermeet: Island of the Elves, Elves of Evermeet and Elves of Faerûn.
I realize this. I should have clarified, but I meant their corrupted nature, not the color of their skin. Even as dark elves they were powerhungry and malicious.
I realize this. I should have clarified, but I meant their corrupted nature, not the color of their skin. Even as dark elves they were powerhungry and malicious.
-Malicious, not necessarily. Power hungry, yes.
-Forget an unwillingness to check other pages...Try an unwillingness to check the very first page! :P
I am far too diplomatic for such a blunt reply! :D
AskaniPsion
I just wonder where the followers of V will go - I don't see them going to Corellon or Lolth. Maybe Mask will pick them up. Hopefully it won't be Shar.
I have a feeling that their existence will simply be swept under the carpet. The Realms will go on to 1480 D.R. with 4E and everyone will start with the newly composed pantheon. The past may get a mention here and there, but I assume it will be decades before any sourcebook will take up something as unimportant as the worshippers of a small drow cult. IMHO, nothing was ever written on those worshippers and souls who belonged to Ibrandul, Myrkul, Leira or Aupenser either.
I am far too diplomatic for such a blunt reply! :D
-Yeah, right! :D :P
Firstly, she's a deity designed to turn drow into something they are not. Drow are designed to be chaotic evil creatures, and having a bunch of Drizzt Do'Urdens running around was pathetically retarded. One anomaly is acceptable, but whole religion of them...I mean, really?
You're arguing metacontext, though - or at least, this can be debated along those lines (LK having addressed the in-game context). Yes, Drow were originally designed as heartless chaotic evil monsters, and presented as such, first in the Greyhawk setting, then slightly later in the Forgotten Realms. They were only later portrayed with greater detail and nuance. Drizzt's story introduced the notion that drow were indeed 'people' rather than monsters, and that while they were inclined towards evil, they had the capacity to choose something different.
Now, it's fair to say "I liked them better when they were just monsters, and we didn't have people wanting to play them." That's certainly a valid opinion, and there's something to be said for it. However, to insist that "this is how they were presented, and it should never ever be allowed to change seems kind of close-minded to me. I think there are a lot of people out there who really enjoyed the concept of the Drow as being a fallen race, with a few individuals and small groups struggling to find their way into the light. I am - was - one of them.
Furthermore, it's a gross generalization to call Eilistraee and her followers "a bunch of Drizzt Do'Urdens." A lot of people spent a great deal of effort making their characters and their ways unique and special, and to simply tar them with an analogy that is based solely on being:
A) Drow
B) Non-Evil
..is really a rather huge stretch, to put it politely.
Firstly, she's a deity designed to turn drow into something they are not. Drow are designed to be chaotic evil creatures, and having a bunch of Drizzt Do'Urdens running around was pathetically retarded. One anomaly is acceptable, but whole religion of them...I mean, really?
The one thing that is unacceptable is the idea, that a being is born evil. Maybe it was that way in the 1st edition, but since then we had good red dragons, lawful neutral succubi and... good drow.
And I'd rather like a believable religion for a small group of good drow than one super-drow who is simply born good instead of evil, because that's what Drizzt is, he is a natural born chaotic good scimitar-dual-wielding lavender-eyed monster! He isn't good, because he recognized somewhere, somehow that good is better than evil, but because he was born that way and he survived because nobody ever cast "detect good" arround him. His backstory is so bad, that he would be better off as a character sheet without one at all. Eil's death is the greatest event to occur in Forgotten Realms, and if I had any doubts that I was going to dislike the 4th edition campaign setting, I most certainly don't now. I'll miss Helm and Vhaeraun, but Eil's death and Torm's rise in power more than make up for the losses. Eilistraee was a joke..if all those pathetic "good" and neutral drow want a deity to follow, they can worship one of the real nature deities like everyone else. Eilistraee should have never existed. Her ironic death at the hands of Hallistra is just icing on the cake.
I see, you are someone who likes Eilistraee even less than I like Drizzt, lost a paladin's abilities because of killing one of her worshippers?
They should worship Mielkikki like Drizzt does? Why? Eilistraee is a perfectly believable link between the elven pantheon and the good drow who couldn't really address them directly, and she has something, that Drizzt will never have, she has a real motivation.The one thing that is unacceptable is the idea, that a being is born evil.
-Certain creatures are. Like Demons and Devils, for instance. They are Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil incarnate. Other creatures are evil due to society. Drow fit this category. The Drow are evil because Lolthite society makes them evil. As we know from precedent, remove the Drow from the evil Lolthite society, and they're not evil.
-Certain creatures are. Like Demons and Devils, for instance. They are Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil incarnate.
Well, that's right, I forgot that demons and devils can procreate and aren't only transformed petitioners (does the thing with the petioners apply in the new FR cosmology? I'm still in the great wheel :D). Okay, Outsiders can be born that way, but they can change in some cases.
Other creatures are evil due to society. Drow fit this category. The Drow are evil because Lolthite society makes them evil. As we know from precedent, remove the Drow from the evil Lolthite society, and they're not evil.
Yep, and that should apply to most humanoid beings from the material plane.
Well, that's right, I forgot that demons and devils can procreate and aren't only transformed petitioners (does the thing with the petioners apply in the new FR cosmology? I'm still in the great wheel :D). Okay, Outsiders can be born that way, but they can change in some cases.
-Never paid much attention to the 3e cosmology stuff...
Yep, and that should apply to most humanoid beings from the material plane.
-Yeah, that applies to most, if not all.
To me it seems like "Oh you are a male and want to be a priest of Eilistraee? Oh well you have to be turned into a female and do all this extra stuff to be a priest." Why don't the female priestess get turned into males to join the clergy?
I just remembered...
In F&P, Eilistraee has no gender requirement for clerics in the rules as written. Lolth is the one who no longer allows male priests.
So, :P .
I was just stating her demise was her own making in a sense. If she knew one of her main godlike enemies was Lloth she should have made her faith more appealing to women and men and fewer restrictions. Lloth and her society had alot of restrictive laws even though she was a chaotic goddess. If Eli could have been more "free" and open with her tenents of her faith she might have either won that game or broke even. That is all.
Meh, everyone can say "should have" in hindsight. I don't think being a "less restrictive" deity would have saved Eilistraee from WotC's chopping block.
Ach well, I assume we will have about a dozen new threads on this and a dark elven and a drow and a Drizzt topic over the coming tenday. Not least because of this new one - FR board streamlining (and some people's unwillingness to check the pages beyond 1 and 2 of this board).
No kidding. That might be "grumpy" of me, but it's all too true.
Firstly, she's a deity designed to turn drow into something they are not. Drow are designed to be chaotic evil creatures, and having a bunch of Drizzt Do'Urdens running around was pathetically retarded. One anomaly is acceptable, but whole religion of them...I mean, really?
Really? Why should Drizzt be the only good drow in existence? If he could be good for no apparent reason (really, I don't think Drizzt deserves to be "that one anomaly" if his backstory doesn't even make sense), I see no reason for him to be the only one.
I think there are a lot of people out there who really enjoyed the concept of the Drow as being a fallen race, with a few individuals and small groups struggling to find their way into the light. I am - was - one of them.
As was I.
Furthermore, it's a gross generalization to call Eilistraee and her followers "a bunch of Drizzt Do'Urdens." A lot of people spent a great deal of effort making their characters and their ways unique and special, and to simply tar them with an analogy that is based solely on being:
A) Drow
B) Non-Evil
..is really a rather huge stretch, to put it politely.
I would add:
C) Non-Drizzt. Only Drizzt is allowed to be "something special".
Meh, everyone can say "should have" in hindsight. I don't think being a "less restrictive" deity would have saved Eilistraee from WotC's chopping block.
Maybe by making her religion less female dominated the male gaming population would have found her faith more appealing thus allowing her to gain more gaming fanbase thus allowing her to escape the chopping block.;) If she was more popular and didn't come off as a good Lloth perhaps she would have survived.
Your right about hindsight, just saying that is a good enough reason why she "bit it". Maybe the rest of her followers will flock to Selune to hand out by the moonlight all nekid and such. What if you were one of her male clerics that got transformed into a female...and now she's deas? I am sure they are pretty honked off.
If I ever wanted to play a cleric I would choose Correlon since he's Eilistraee's father and the god of all elves, so they can have the same goal.This doesn't mean I disliked Eilistraee in any way, nor does it diminish the things I really like about her religion. I do think it could be improved on... but, ultimately, it's one of those things where we don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Transformation into a female was as far as I know restricted to nights where special rituals took place. Otherwise male clerics were clerics second class (which was still a lot better than in Lolth's church). That's why I never played clerics of Eilistraee, just (sun elf :D ) swordfighters who worshipped her. I never had a problem with that, I'd rather like to be a first class swordmaster than a second class cleric.
Doest being a second class character defeat the purpose of being a hero? I mean, think of it, what would it be like to be a 2nd class hero ? Mopping up after the main guys would be your job and thats all.
Doest being a second class character defeat the purpose of being a hero? I mean, think of it, what would it be like to be a 2nd class hero ? Mopping up after the main guys would be your job and thats all.
Being a second-class cleric of Eilistraee in the Forgotten Realms is still better than being a hobbit in middle-earth.:D
I just remembered...
In F&P, Eilistraee has no gender requirement for clerics in the rules as written. Lolth is the one who no longer allows male priests.
So, :P .
-She does, actually. You need to read between the lines, though.
-All of her Clerics use the feminine pronoun (Masked Ladies, etc.). The only way this would be grammatically possible would be if the group of women only. Once a single man is included in a group of women, the pronoun becomes the masculine, not the feminine.
-She does, actually. You need to read between the lines, though.
-All of her Clerics use the feminine pronoun (Masked Ladies, etc.). The only way this would be grammatically possible would be if the group of women only. Once a single man is included in a group of women, the pronoun becomes the masculine, not the feminine.
Grammar Nazi:P
Maybe by making her religion less female dominated the male gaming population would have found her faith more appealing thus allowing her to gain more gaming fanbase thus allowing her to escape the chopping block.;) If she was more popular and didn't come off as a good Lloth perhaps she would have survived.
Well, I don't quite buy it that Eilistraee was unpopular with the male gaming population. I can see a lot of male gamers here are unhappy with her, but I've seen the opposite on other websites.
Doest being a second class character defeat the purpose of being a hero? I mean, think of it, what would it be like to be a 2nd class hero ? Mopping up after the main guys would be your job and thats all.
Where did this "second class character" nonsense come from? Not from anything I recall Ed saying, or even F&P saying.
People, stop passing off opinions as if they were facts, please.
-She does, actually. You need to read between the lines, though.
-All of her Clerics use the feminine pronoun (Masked Ladies, etc.). The only way this would be grammatically possible would be if the group of women only. Once a single man is included in a group of women, the pronoun becomes the masculine, not the feminine.
I think that if there is no explicitly stated gender requirement, then there isn't one. Lolth's entry states explicitly that only females can be clerics (a change from 2E, by the way); Eilistraee's entry does not.
Where did this "second class character" nonsense come from? Not from anything I recall Ed saying, or even F&P saying.
People, stop passing off opinions as if they were facts, please.
I think the fact that Eli can't just be satisfied with a male cleric just being a male cleric of hers instead of having to become something their not (like female) is like treating someone as lesser. To Eli it seems, the women comes first in her clergy.
In all the novels I have read regarding Eli, all her priestesses act kinda rudely to all males they meet.
Also someone to remember, Ed Greenwood only created the Forgotten Realms - it is not just his say anymore thanks to many readers writing about the Realms. Ed can jump up and down all day saying "Mystra isn't dead!" but she still is in canon. So no point quoting Ed. He is NOT the final say in all things Realms. Once he sold the Realms, it isn't completely his anymore.
An example for comic book fans, Chris Claremont helped create many of the X-Men characters but they are Marvel's property. So if Marvel says differently about a character Chris created, it is too bad on Chris. Marvel has the say. Same goes with Ed and WOTC.
BTW I love the guy though - met him at GenCon one year. :D
So no point quoting Ed.
Wrong. Everything Ed says is canon unless it is later contradicted by another source, as per a contract he has with WotC.* Using a silly, made-up example to try to detract from this (Ed "jumping up and down all day") isn't going to change that.
F&P and Ed both agree that Eilistraee won't prevent a male from being a cleric. That's how it is, like it or not.
*And, if you don't believe me on this, by all means head over to Candlekeep.com and discuss the matter with Ed yourself.
Wrong. Everything Ed says is canon unless it is later contradicted by another source, as per a contract he has with WotC.* Using a silly, made-up example to try to detract from this (Ed "jumping up and down all day") isn't going to change that.
F&P and Ed both agree that Eilistraee won't prevent a male from being a cleric. That's how it is, like it or not.
*And, if you don't believe me on this, by all means head over to Candlekeep.com and discuss the matter with Ed yourself.
I never said that Eli would not allow a male cleric if you read my posts. I said that Eli treats her male clergy DIFFERENTLY than her female clergy. Other writers have also referenced that so I would take that as canon then. You can tell in many of the novels that the priestesses mistrust men.
Drow of the Underdark - as a Core sourcebook - goes as far as saying the males are never get a chance of joining the priesthood, while Expedition to the Demonweb Pits does actually feature male drow blackguards of Lolth. So much for continuity in Core lore.
You will never met a male drow priest or divine caster in FR lore outside an RAS novel (where we find a total mis-character - going by AD&D and 3E rules) and the odd line in DD saying that male clerics of Lolth never rise above 7th level.
Eilistraee was a female only clergy ever she came into being, though she accepted females of any race. The male bit only came into being with 3E, though it should be marked that no novel or lore auther and designer introduced a male clergymen of Eilistraee after the ascent of 3E. The intermezzo of Eilistraee posing as a "matron" deity of the ex-Vhaeraunians is to short and contructed a thing to hold any value in the gender debate regarding the Dark Maiden. IMHO.
Well, I don't quite buy it that Eilistraee was unpopular with the male gaming population. I can see a lot of male gamers here are unhappy with her, but I've seen the opposite on other websites.
Just my opinion but to me it seems she was as unpopular as Mystra, hence her death. Like I said just my opinion. El and Drizzt are popular and sell books so they live.
Just my opinion but to me it seems she was as unpopular as Mystra, hence her death. Like I said just my opinion. El and Drizzt are popular and sell books so they live.
-I've never seen Eilistraee as "unpopular". She's not the most popular, either, but she's in the middle, somewhere. Truthfully, I don't think most people feel that she "matters" enough, one way or another. Remember, she is a fairly minor deity, in the grand scheme of things, here.
I think that if there is no explicitly stated gender requirement, then there isn't one. Lolth's entry states explicitly that only females can be clerics (a change from 2E, by the way); Eilistraee's entry does not.
-No, it does not, but there is a lot circumstantial evidence supporting that notion. Circumstantial evidence doesn't carry no weight.
Just my opinion but to me it seems she was as unpopular as Mystra, hence her death.
Mystra seemed to be one of those deities that had people really really like her or they totally loathed her.
I liked Mystra but I did think her Chosen were WAY over used hence why some people loathed her. I would rather have seen some Chosen for other lesser used gods like Corellon, Sehanine or Tiamat.
I also know people who love and extremely loathe Drizzt.
I do think the majority of Eilistraee's fans were females.
Regardless I do think popularity does weigh in more appearances by certain characters. Geez Wolverine is a good example of that....he is in 4 X-Men books, 3 solo books and a member of the Avengers.
How does he manage to get around so fast??Me personally I am hoping to see more of Twilight from Depths of Madness! She quickly became one of my favorites and I loved that book!
I liked Mystra but I did think her Chosen were WAY over used hence why some people loathed her. I would rather have seen some Chosen for other lesser used gods like Corellon, Sehanine or Tiamat.
-You do know that there are other Chosen out there, correct? Would you like the list?
May sound kinda lame, but ultimately she made the big sacrifice for her people, whether she wanted to or not. Now, her people get the treatment she wanted for them, and her soul can rest...
-You do know that there are other Chosen out there, correct? Would you like the list?
Yes please! I would love a list. I do know that some have appeared in other books....but there are sooooooooooooooooooo many books to read! hehe I am already in the middle of reading 3 novels at one time. :D
I am just hoping that Sehanine gets some more exposure in the Realms thanks to 4E....that is if she is not being sucked into Selune
I do think the majority of Eilistraee's fans were females.
Really? I actually had a soft spot for her... and that despite being more of a male. While only "liking" the Realms, whereas I *love* Eberron.
Cheers, LT.
Really? I actually had a soft spot for her... and that despite being more of a male. While only "liking" the Realms, whereas I *love* Eberron.
Cheers, LT.
Totally understandable - my favorite deities are all females - Lolth, Sehanine, Tiamat and Mystra :D
yeah I am a big fan of Eberron myself especially the Kalashtar (my favorite race) and the Quori.
I think Eilistraee will live on at least as a martyr and symbol to the "good" dark elves - who knows they might be able to bring her back - has happened before.
Yes please! I would love a list. I do know that some have appeared in other books....but there are sooooooooooooooooooo many books to read! hehe I am already in the middle of reading 3 novels at one time. :D
I am just hoping that Sehanine gets some more exposure in the Realms thanks to 4E....that is if she is not being sucked into Selune
-Let me go dig it out, hold on...
-Alright, being as that the WotC boards are not working 100% right now, my search function is not working. If you do a search (if it works for you) for 'Chosen', I'm sure you'll find it.
Really? I actually had a soft spot for her... and that despite being more of a male. While only "liking" the Realms, whereas I *love* Eberron.
Cheers, LT.
-"More of" a male...?
-"More of" a male...?
Huh? Are you saying that you don't have varying degrees of gender? :P
Cheers, LT.
Huh? Are you saying that you don't have varying degrees of gender? :P
Cheers, LT.
-Must be something in that English water that we don't have here...
-You do know that there are other Chosen out there, correct? Would you like the list?
The fact that there is a whole list of them is what also drove some fans nuts I believe. Unless ya meant Chosen of the other gods. If so then ignore my post.:D
Just my opinion but to me it seems she was as unpopular as Mystra, hence her death. Like I said just my opinion. El and Drizzt are popular and sell books so they live.
That might be your opinion, but I haven't seen any particular consensus so far regarding Eilistraee's lack of popularity with male gamers. And that's not even taking into account the fact that what we see on messageboards isn't the whole picture.
-I've never seen Eilistraee as "unpopular". She's not the most popular, either, but she's in the middle, somewhere. Truthfully, I don't think most people feel that she "matters" enough, one way or another. Remember, she is a fairly minor deity, in the grand scheme of things, here.
Right--at least people couldn't say that Eilistraee dominated the setting or controlled all magic, whereas people liked to say that about Mystra.
The fact that there is a whole list of them is what also drove some fans nuts I believe. Unless ya meant Chosen of the other gods. If so then ignore my post.:D
-I meant the Chosen of other deities.
Right--at least people couldn't say that Eilistraee dominated the setting or controlled all magic, whereas people liked to say that about Mystra.
-Eilistraee is/was fairly anonymous.
-I meant the Chosen of other deities.
Gotcha. I think that the fact that she has over 10 Chosen just added to peoples dislike of her. I think they should have just made El her Chosen and the rest...just really good, devoted casters.
Gotcha. I think that the fact that she has over 10 Chosen just added to peoples dislike of her. I think they should have just made El her Chosen and the rest...just really good, devoted casters.
-Opinions, opinions, opinions. Remember, Mask has at least 5 Chosen, and no one seems to have any problem with them. And, in my own opinion, five is a lot for a lesser deity.
Well, I don't quite buy it that Eilistraee was unpopular with the male gaming population. I can see a lot of male gamers here are unhappy with her, but I've seen the opposite on other websites.
The best thing about Eilistraee was hot drow chick who doesn't wear anything.
The problem with reorienting your market to twelve year olds is "Hot Drow Chick who doesn't wear anything.
You already I know I think Wizards dropped the ball, so let's give a big round of applause for incompetence and jackboot fear of naked people!
If America was more about sex and less about violence, I think we might be better off.
I wouldn't. The Europeans and Japanese aren't insane, perverted, or half mad, and they are perfectly accepting of nudity in advertising.
If America was more about sex and less about violence, I think we might be better off.
I don't see why we shouldn't be about both.
Where did this "second class character" nonsense come from? Not from anything I recall Ed saying, or even F&P saying.
If you read the qutation I was answering to, maybe you´d know.
Being a second-class cleric of Eilistraee in the Forgotten Realms is still better than being a hobbit in middle-earth.:D
An yea, thats true, mate
Nooffense for those who like middlearthian hobbits, but their life wasnt the most nteresting one:
Me personally I am hoping to see more of Twilight from Depths of Madness! She quickly became one of my favorites and I loved that book!
Yeah, and she made an appearance in this one story in the Realms of the Elves Anthology. A interesting character to say the least, and I like how she is at the same time roguish, heroic, and hide from a dark past. I have always enjoyed "grey-heroes" of this sort.
I think we'll be seeing more of her in the future, as the end of Depths of Madness hinted at further conflict with the Cult of Demogorgon.
Just imagine what a book like Warriors Illustrated could do to draw female gamers in if it were nothing but beefcake... :D
And I totally understand the variable degree of gender thing... and am rather depressed that the sheltered youth of today miss the point. :P
I wouldn't. The Europeans and Japanese aren't insane, perverted, or half mad, and they are perfectly accepting of nudity in advertising.
If America was more about sex and less about violence, I think we might be better off.
-Feh, I don't.
-And, yes, the above mentioned groups are indeed insane, perverted and/or half mad.
If you read the qutation I was answering to, maybe you´d know.
I was talking about that post, too.
-And, yes, the above mentioned groups are indeed insane, perverted and/or half mad.
Well, as a European (Brit) who is currently engaged to a Japanese woman...
Thanks!
-And, yes, the above mentioned groups are indeed insane, perverted and/or half mad.
One could easily say that about any nationality... or region... like say New Yorkers for instance... or Californian's for that matter. Doesn't make it true though... except for New York, that was scientifically proven according to this report I just made up. :D
Well, as a European (Brit) who is currently engaged to a Japanese woman...
Thanks!
-No problem.
One could easily say that about any nationality... or region... like say New Yorkers for instance... or Californian's for that matter. Doesn't make it true though... except for New York, that was scientifically proven according to this report I just made up. :D
-Especially Californians.
So yeah... Eilistraee would be the topic at hand...
No, no! You can't do that! Please: Do not confuse them with somesuch! ;)
So yeah... Eilistraee would be the topic at hand...
-You mean, the Masked Lady.
Nope, I mean Eilistraee... I refuse to accept the existance of the Masked Lady. Kinda like you and wood elves. ;)
But Elves Do exist, right?
its true its true according to this study that i just made up
Nope, I mean Eilistraee... I refuse to accept the existance of the Masked Lady...
-How come? As I've discussed in other threads, the existence of the Masked Lasy is a plus for Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.
Kinda like you and wood elves. ;)
-Try again. I've never denied the existence of Wood Elves. It's the existence of "Wild" Elves, and the definition of Wood Elves.
Wood Elves = Green Elves both civil and savage
Wood Elves = Nothing
But Elves Do exist, right?
Yeah, they all became Christians, grew shorter, and migrated to the North Pole.
Yeah, and she made an appearance in this one story in the Realms of the Elves Anthology. A interesting character to say the least, and I like how she is at the same time roguish, heroic, and hide from a dark past. I have always enjoyed "grey-heroes" of this sort.
Yeah to me, Twilight seemed very realistic since she was so grey.
"Depths of Madness" was definitely one of my favorite FR books.
I actually like the Masked Lady better than Eilistraee.
Yeah to me, Twilight seemed very realistic since she was so grey.
"Depths of Madness" was definitely one of my favorite FR books.
I actually like the Masked Lady better than Eilistraee.
So did I, I have always liked Eilistraee, but never Vhaeraun (he always seemed like a whiny lil' brat who is afraid of his mama to me:D ).
Depths of Madness was good, the character Dorn in the Year of Rogue Dragons series is also a good grey hero, and of course there is Artemis Entreti, who leans towards evil but still shows heroic parts of his personality.
-How come? As I've discussed in other threads, the existence of the Masked Lasy is a plus for Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.
I prefer them seperate. They're just nothing alike really, and I see Vhaeraun's merging with her as a debasement of her nature... not to mention that I don't like the shrinking of the drow pantheon in the first place. She was just fine the way she was as far as I'm concerned, beneficial or not.
But hey, that's part of the build-up to 4eFR, so I'm perfectly happy ignoring its existance. ;)
-Try again. I've never denied the existence of Wood Elves. It's the existence of "Wild" Elves, and the definition of Wood Elves.
Wood Elves = Green Elves both civil and savage
Wood Elves = Nothing
Yeah, Yeah, whatever. Green elves and wood elves are two very different things, and green elves came first, who were those 'Wild' elves first as I recall it. Page 23 of 2e's Elves of Evermeet is quite clear on them being 'Wild' elves. :P
Well as loathe as I am to admit it, the simple answer is it doesn't matter.
Those who love the Realms as they were have been given a choice. **** off, or conform. If we don't like it, tough, we weren't asked to stay, and aren't really wanted.
They are happy to take our money, but don't really want much else from us, and our outdated opinions.
This doesn't mean we all won't keep complaining, but I know I personally have given up. I'm trying 4e and the 4e Realms for curiosity, and then will decide whether or not to call it quits entirely.
I personally suggest anyone with lingering complaints do the same. We're not really wanted here anymore.
-RW
That´s why I am moving on to Golarion for at least my next campaign.
It´s hard to say good-bye to old favorite characters, but if the creators show me the middle finger in such an obvious way, then it is also clear that they don´t want or need my money anymore.
I prefer them seperate. They're just nothing alike really, and I see Vhaeraun's merging with her as a debasement of her nature... not to mention that I don't like the shrinking of the drow pantheon in the first place. She was just fine the way she was as far as I'm concerned, beneficial or not.
-I think it was a change for the better, but okay.
Yeah, Yeah, whatever. Green elves and wood elves are two very different things, and green elves came first, who were those 'Wild' elves first as I recall it. Page 23 of 2e's Elves of Evermeet is quite clear on them being 'Wild' elves. :P
-Yes, the Green Elves, who are now called "Wild Elves", came to Faerûn in -27,000 DR. Of course, I call them 'Wood Elves', being as that not all of them are feral, savage, and wild. Starleaf, perhaps one of the greatest Selu'Taar to have walked Faerûn was a member of this subrace. As to what RoF calls "Wood Elves", their existence is impossible, and a retcon for 3e, and thus, I ignore all of the details written for the supposed subrace.
-How come? As I've discussed in other threads, the existence of the Masked Lasy is a plus for Eilistraee and Vhaeraun.
Not for Vhaeraun, really, because for the Masked Lady to exist, he had to be dead.;)
Not for Vhaeraun, really, because for the Masked Lady to exist, he had to be dead.;)
-The 'spirit' of both. The 'concepts' behind Elistraee and Vhaeraun.
As to Green Elves, they never struck me as feral, so much as preferring a forested existance... well, the Misty Forest types were really kinda feral, but still. As to it being a retcon... was one I liked, so its one I pay attention to. ;)
As to Green Elves, they never struck me as feral, so much as preferring a forested existance... well, the Misty Forest types were really kinda feral, but still. As to it being a retcon... was one I liked, so its one I pay attention to. ;)
-Feral...Barbaric...Whatever synonym suits your fancy. I tend to use 'feral' more often.
Feral works... but not all of them were...
-Right. Some are more/less savage than others.
Which rather makes sense... still don't see why that doesn't allow for Wood Elves though.
-Because Elves breed true. Mixing a Sun Elf and a Moon Elf yields either a Moon Elf, or a Sun Elf, not some sort of hybrid Sun-Moon Elf, as canonical Wood Elves are, with a little bit of canonical "Wild Elves" mixed in. Thus, their existence cannot be.
-Because Elves breed true. Mixing a Sun Elf and a Moon Elf yields either a Moon Elf, or a Sun Elf, not some sort of hybrid Sun-Moon Elf, as canonical Wood Elves are, with a little bit of canonical "Wild Elves" mixed in. Thus, their existence cannot be.
So are wood elves Eldarin or Elves since they seem to possess the blood of both? Maybe since the two branches are now so separate that they are consitered different species inbreeding between them would create a sort of eldarin-elf hybrid.
Unless you accept the idea of Elven Evolution...
-Which is incorrect.
...or the idea of a deity stepping in somewhere and saying 'so it shall be thus' or something and us just not seeing it happen if that makes you feel better.
-Which could just as easily be 'countered' with Corellon Larethian saying, "The Elves were created in my image, and as such, will never change" behind the scenes, and us not seeing it happen.
But hey, if you want to look for reasons to invalidate existing canon lore, rather than trying to incorporate an interesting subrace, feel free. ;)
Only in your limited little imagination is elven evolution incorrect... RoF tells us that much. :P
But hey, if you want to look for reasons to invalidate existing canon lore, rather than trying to incorporate an interesting subrace, feel free. ;)
-And, Races of Faerûn is wrong. It's not that hard.
-And, Races of Faerûn is wrong. It's not that hard.
~(~(T). Karsus is wrong again and Races of Faerun is right.
Well, RoF would presumably trump the opinion of a long vanished, elf-hating, failed deity of a Netherese archmage, so yeah, I'd tend to err with something more up to date from a quasi-respectable company than a disembodied imaginary guy from a culture with serious issues with the Elves myself. ;) :D
-Nope.
~(~(T). Karsus is wrong again and Races of Faerun is right.
Karsus has been a vestige for a long time now. Being stuck in the form of a bleeding boulder trapped at the edge of existence.........the poor old man must finally be going senile. Its sad really.
Granted, I also liked it because I am one of Vhaeraun’s fans, but that is neither here or there… *shifty eyes*
Oh yes, virtual drinks for all! First post on these boards!
any drow that daydreams of large scale plots gets stabbed in the back
keep telling yourself that spunky. :P
-Hey, I'm not the one keeping himself bound by the chains of ignorance...
any drow that daydreams of large scale plots gets stabbed in the back
-Unless he/she has Mage Armor.
However, sadly I must disagree with your first post here:Because the whole thing gives the setting a lot more flavour. Usually it is just, ‘good wins and the bad guys are left face down in the dirt’.
If you read the sourcebooks and overall Realmslore enough, you'll discover that good does not always win in the Realms. As for Good beating Evil in novels--that's pretty standard in the fantasy genre as a whole, isn't it? The FR was always meant to be a setting of heroic fantasy. It's not a setting that will put out novel after novel about the (usually good or neutral) protagonists failing terribly no matter what they do.
Karsus has been a vestige for a long time now. Being stuck in the form of a bleeding boulder trapped at the edge of existence.........the poor old man must finally be going senile. Its sad really.
What boulder? What old man? There is no *****, whatever it is its just a figment of my imagination. I must not fall to temptation...
Only in your limited little imagination is elven evolution incorrect... RoF tells us that much.
Just in case ... RoF had the problem that it wanted to be a Cormanthyr - Empire of the Elves for nigh all races of the Realms and it run quickly out of space. And while doing so, it messed up quite a few bits and pieces about the Elven history, as parts were simply dropped and thus an error-strewn history came into being. Thus said Rich Baker later on. In any case, if you look for Elven "evolution" within Realmspace, look at Cormanthyr, DD and TGHotR. Though the latter introduced the "green" dark elves, much of the lore is conclusive and well detailed. No wonder, since most comes out of the best book on that topic to date, Cormanthyr.
I like wood elves myself (their philosphy of looking at life appeals to me most out of all the elven outlooks), and RoF doesn't bother me much since I tend to ignore 90% of it anyway. If someone wants to call them Green elves, I don't really care since it has no effect whatsoever on my extraordinarily non-canon campaign. Unless its LK, in which case I'm totally in favor of wood elves and elven evolution. ;)
when vhaerun was offed by Eilistraee, did she absorb his divinity?
because of if she did, could she of given whats her name his divinity instead of hers?
Drakos, welcome to the boards.
Thanks for the greetings! Anyway I will have to agree with you and admit that I made a mistake there on the 'villians losing' part. Anyway, since I am high in energy and have nothing else to do, I might as well post.
you like that? now there's Lolth only which is boring
any drow that daydreams of large scale plots gets stabbed in the back
Honestly, I don’t believe there is just Lloth. With any power-hungry society like the drow, there will always be someone fighting them from the shadows. I am not even entirely sure that either Vhaeraun or Eilistraee are 100% dead. Particularly with the Masked Lord, who is supposed to be the deceptive type, but time will tell.
when vhaerun was offed by Eilistraee, did she absorb his divinity?
-Yes. That's what happens.
What's bad about the wood elf concept? We know moon elf-sun elf crossbreeds usually take after one or the other parent, but it doesn't say much about sun elf/green elf. Maybe after a thousand-odd years of hybridization we start to get "wood elves" appearing.
the term "wild elf" is not entirely appropiate though, given the number of novels that seem to prefer the phrase Green Elf. Wild elf should have been the secondary term, not the primary one.
What's bad about the wood elf concept? We know moon elf-sun elf crossbreeds usually take after one or the other parent, but it doesn't say much about sun elf/green elf. Maybe after a thousand-odd years of hybridization we start to get "wood elves" appearing.
the term "wild elf" is not entirely appropiate though, given the number of novels that seem to prefer the phrase Green Elf. Wild elf should have been the secondary term, not the primary one.
-Elves breed true. When a Sun Elf daddy and a Moon Elf mommy love each other very much, they have a baby. This baby is either a Sun Elf, or a Moon Elf. It's not a Half-Sun Elf, Half-Moon Elf. Likewise, when a X Elf daddy and a Y Elf mommy love each other very much, and have a baby, the baby is always going to either be a X Elf, or a Y Elf. Elves breed true.
Well, they did anyway prior to RoF... not anymore though. :P :D
we can do this all day every day LK
-I'm good. I can too.
-Yes. That's what happens.
so she could of giver Q. Veladorn his divinity instead of her own????
so she could of giver Q. Veladorn his divinity instead of her own????
-Her divinity merged with Vhaeraun's divinity. They ceased to be two entities.
Well Eilistraee might be dead, but for all we know, Corellon might now have his own followers among the drow after 100 years.
-He already has his own followers among the Drow now.
-He already has his own followers among the Drow now.
Among the "dark elves", if you please. The rest in conjecture.
-Her divinity merged with Vhaeraun's divinity. They ceased to be two entities.
Even more conjecture. Eilistraee absorbed Vhaeraun's divine essence (or at least a part of it), but remained Eilistraee - for all we know. Vhaeraun was slain and as dead as e.g. Zanassu after the latter had been slain by Selvetarm, who in turn absorbed his essence. The dual-voice stuff was, IMHO, just something needed to keep the Vhaeraunians in the novels, for they had surely deserted the faith if there wasn't anything left of Vhaeraun in the Masked Lady. A novel-tool.
Among the "dark elves", if you please. The rest in conjecture.
-Dark Elves, which is a synonym for Drow.
Even more conjecture.
-Incorrect. By canon, we know that when a deity destroys another deity (or other extraplanar power), he/she/it absorbs the essence of that which he/she/it destroyed, unless otherwise noted.
Eilistraee absorbed Vhaeraun's divine essence (or at least a part of it), but remained Eilistraee - for all we know.
-Wrong. She ceased to be Eilistraee, and became the Masked Lady.
-Dark Elves, which is a synonym for Drow.
Oh no, and you know that. There were (and are now) "dark elves" and drow. The synonymous use of the word is there, but not always means and meant the same. Pre-Descent "Dark Elves" are no drow, post-Redemption "Dark Elves" are no drow either. It has never been said that Corellon has "drow" worshippers or clergy, only "dark elven". That's a fact. At the time (DD), one can - of course - easily claim that the designer did indeed meant "drow" when writing on Corellon, but he still used the term "dark elves", not drow. Hence my remark - keeping to the facts, not conjecture.
-Incorrect. By canon, we know that when a deity destroys another deity (or other extraplanar power), he/she/it absorbs the essence of that which he/she/it destroyed, unless otherwise noted.
That is not the point I contested. I contested the "ceased to be two entities". Eilistraee remained Eilistraee and did not cease to exist. Her new "alias" does not matter. Vhaeraun did indeed cease to exist as a divine entity.
-Wrong. She ceased to be Eilistraee, and became the Masked Lady.
Nope. An alias does not mean a new deity. Selvetarm remained Selvetarm, Cyric remained Cyric.
(BTW, you do note that I keep you busy with this to keep the posting numbers on here on the rise and we thus get more FR boards, yes?)
Oh no, and you know that. There were (and are now) "dark elves" and drow. The synonymous use of the word is there, but not always means and meant the same. Pre-Descent "Dark Elves" are no drow, post-Redemption "Dark Elves" are no drow either. It has never been said that Corellon has "drow" worshippers or clergy, only "dark elven". That's a fact. At the time (DD), one can - of course - easily claim that the designer did indeed meant "drow" when writing on Corellon, but he still used the term "dark elves", not drow. Hence my remark - keeping to the facts, not conjecture.
-Being that that the Demihuman Deities was written in the (then) present, and that the article was not referencing the past, or using the past tense, Corellon Larethian has Drow worshipers now, in the present, as well as the past, and, likely with what happened in Ascendancy of the Last, in the future as well.
That is not the point I contested. I contested the "ceased to be two entities". Eilistraee remained Eilistraee and did not cease to exist. Her new "alias" does not matter. Vhaeraun did indeed cease to exist as a divine entity.
-What are you arguing, then? You admit that Vhaeraun did indeed cease to exist as a divine entity. Thus, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun ceased to be two entities.
Nope. An alias does not mean a new deity. Selvetarm remained Selvetarm, Cyric remained Cyric.
-Her alias did not just change. Her entire dogma, her entire system of doing things, her entire outlook changed. Eilistraee ceased to exist, and The Masked Lady was born. Eilistraee is/was not fully congruent with The Masked Lady, and The Masked Lady is/was not fully congruent with Eilistraee.
Dark Elf = dark elf = colored elf (English language)
See? Not synonymous. Yay!:D
See? Not synonymous. Yay!:D
-Drow = Dark Elf. Yay.
-Drow = Dark Elf. Yay.
You forgot a smilely in the end there....
You forgot a smilely in the end there....
-I didn't want a smiley.
-I didn't want a smiley.
It's just not a smiley day.
-I didn't want a smiley.
I know :P
-Being that that the Demihuman Deities was written in the (then) present, and that the article was not referencing the past, or using the past tense, Corellon Larethian has Drow worshipers now, in the present, as well as the past, and, likely with what happened in Ascendancy of the Last, in the future as well.
You need not to repeat the stuff, as you know I know it. I just noted that DD does not speak of drow, but "dark elves". And we do not know as yet whether Corellon will have indeed drow worshippers. "4E Dark elven" maybe, but drow? Hardly likely. And I for one doubt that the Eilistraeens will convert to him either. Sehanine maybe.
-What are you arguing, then? You admit that Vhaeraun did indeed cease to exist as a divine entity. Thus, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun ceased to be two entities.
As in: there was just one left and the other dead? Then you are indeed correct. One Eilistraee. Just as there was just one Cyric (after he slew e.g. Leira). As I said.
-Her alias did not just change. Her entire dogma, her entire system of doing things, her entire outlook changed. Eilistraee ceased to exist, and The Masked Lady was born. Eilistraee is/was not fully congruent with The Masked Lady, and The Masked Lady is/was not fully congruent with Eilistraee.
Sorry, but that is just conjecture on your part. Her dogma did hardly change. Her outlook changed by what, a shadowy masked covering her face? No, I can't see as great a change as you, one which turned her into a quasi-new deity. Eilistraee did not cease to exist and nothing in the novel (especially in the framing story) provides a basis to this - IMHO. Same with Cyric or any other divine god-slayer. Though I can see your point, of course.
You need not to repeat the stuff, as you know I know it.
-The what's the problem?
I just noted that DD does not speak of drow, but "dark elves".
-Yes, which are synonymous. Just like some sources refer to Sun Elves as Gold Elves, and Moon Elves as Silver Elves.
As in: there was just one left and the other dead? Then you are indeed correct. One Eilistraee. Just as there was just one Cyric (after he slew e.g. Leira). As I said.
-Yes. Again, why did you bring up a point of disagreement, then?
Though I can see your point, of course.
-As long as you see that much.
No, honestly, I will not include the events of LP in my Realms. Yet that's not because I dislike them, but I dislike the whole scenario that goes along with it. Hence, for the time being, my "drow" campaigns will start and finish no-where near the mid-1370s or beyond. And I for one dread the day when I first have to read a novel on the post-Spellplague 4E drow, when a priestess orders a willing and wounded male drow into a group of enemies and causes him to explode into a cloud of spiders ...
I am puzzled as to why it's such a big debate whether or not Eilistraee was Eilistraee or Eli-vhaeraun (or some better combination) for the span of two novels, especially as I'm sure both of you won't be using those novels in your Realms.. right?
I know *I* won't, that's for sure.
@ "Lord" Karsus ... why do we do this? *Quietly points at the last sentence of post 188*
-Sneaky, sneaky Drow...
Well I was considering getting rid of yet another elf moon deity
-You'd take out two with one stone. Angharradh can't exist without Sehanine Moonbow.
-I hate when people say elitism is a bad thing. Such a misinformed sentiment. If everyone held such sentiments, the world would be a much better place. No one would settle with mediocrity...
Yup the'll be Bigger Booms, like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, cuz WE ARE RIGHT!!! :rolleye2:
Ouch. Might have placed a spoiler or something on this title since her death happened at the end of a novel.
I was not a big fan of her. Even though I thought it was good that she gave female drow a way to get out of drow society I think she should have been more open to men and women. This would have made her religion stronger and she would have been able to beat Lloth in the long run. Her own shortsightedness killed her in the end relying just on women worshippers.
She should have gotter Vaheraun under her belt to aqcuire male worshippers or just have been more openminded than Lloth was. She fell into Lloths trap but she did not have the "god juice" to back it up.
She was never gray. Mask and Helm are alot more gray in terms of worshippers than Elly was.
I don't recall ever reading that her following was exclusively female. More often than not they were but I've seen many referrences of male clergy to her. Perhaps I am wrong in this, and if I am please explain so that I may educate myself, but she wasn't sexist. Her mother was.
And as for killing off Eli and Mystra and condensing the whole gods list... Well I'm not doing it. My players and I looked it over, went what the hell?, and put it all back on the shelf. If some great world altering event is to occur in my Forgotten Realms it shall be my players who enact such changes.
I don't recall ever reading that her following was exclusively female. More often than not they were but I've seen many referrences of male clergy to her. Perhaps I am wrong in this, and if I am please explain so that I may educate myself, but she wasn't sexist. Her mother was.
And as for killing off Eli and Mystra and condensing the whole gods list... Well I'm not doing it. My players and I looked it over, went what the hell?, and put it all back on the shelf. If some great world altering event is to occur in my Forgotten Realms it shall be my players who enact such changes.
That's because you started reading of her in 3E? Every single AD&D FR book on her - novels inlcuded - state clearly that Eilistraee has an all female clergy (which does not mean followers in general, of course). THE prime source on her faith is Demihuman Deities. While the abbreviated version that is Faiths & Pantheons says nothing about gender (unless you look at her PrC in that book), not a single novel after that has an Eilistraeen priest. The first influx comes along with the drow deiicide fiasco and the 'taking over' of willing Vhaeraunites. But that stretches the initial argument. Eilistraee's clergy always was female only ... though these females need not to be drow.
Of course, many gamers (being young adult males) couldn't get their head about playing females or priestesses who (once a year) run about naked in the woods. They wanted their Drizzt-clones and they more or less got them in F&P. For the latter book simply did not mention any gender restrictions and thus the door was opened for all.
Alas, the LP series put a swift end to this.
That's because you started reading of her in 3E? Every single AD&D FR book on her - novels inlcuded - state clearly that Eilistraee has an all female clergy (which does not mean followers in general, of course). THE prime source on her faith is Demihuman Deities. While the abbreviated version that is Faiths & Pantheons says nothing about gender (unless you look at her PrC in that book), not a single novel after that has an Eilistraeen priest. The first influx comes along with the drow deiicide fiasco and the 'taking over' of willing Vhaeraunites. But that stretches the initial argument. Eilistraee's clergy always was female only ... though these females need not to be drow.
Of course, many gamers (being young adult males) couldn't get their head about playing females or priestesses who (once a year) run about naked in the woods. They wanted their Drizzt-clones and they more or less got them in F&P. For the latter book simply did not mention any gender restrictions and thus the door was opened for all.
Alas, the LP series put a swift end to this.
Well, I asked to be educated. Lol. Thanks and I will look through the aforementioned texts (ironically I started the process of downloading Demihuman Deities among other books the night I posted).
I always found it quite ironic that pre-3E, Lloth could have male priests (though IIRC they capped at level 7 or so) but Eilistraee would not.
Nothing really ironic about this. Eilistraee is just one of 150odd faiths of Faerûn, and one of about a handful which has a gender restriction. Look at "real world faiths" and the gender-openess there. You'll have to look hard ...
Interestingly enough, in direct opposition to the drow houses, Elven houses always had "Patrons" as the heads of the family.
Seidon ... I gather you get DD from a legal source, yes?!
Seidon ... I gather you get DD from a legal source, yes?!
Demihuman Deities is available as a zip file from RPGnow.com for $4.95 US dollars, if that's what you're asking.
Interestingly enough, in direct opposition to the drow houses, Elven houses always had "Patrons" as the heads of the family.
-And matrons. And, of course, the spiritual and political leader of the Elven nation* as a whole is a queen, a woman.
Demihuman Deities is available as a zip file from RPGnow.com for $4.95 US dollars, if that's what you're asking.
-Prices went up? I remember downloading plenty of PDFs for only $4 a pop.
*Using the sociological/anthropological definition.
-Prices went up? I remember downloading plenty of PDFs for only $4 a pop.
I think Paizo.com has quite a lot for $4 flat, and it also might be there. Not sure, really. Usually I tend to think of RPGnow.com first because they'll often have really old stuff from a huge variety of different companies, although Paizo is getting there also.
You know, I've always sort of wondered why WotC never sold the PDFs themselves. One of the great mysteries of the RPG world.
You know, I've always sort of wondered why WotC never sold the PDFs themselves. One of the great mysteries of the RPG world.
-They probably make more money giving others the licenses to sell the PDFs, rather than the little $4 (to a multi-million dollar corporation) per PDF download.
Demihuman Deities is available as a zip file from RPGnow.com for $4.95 US dollars, if that's what you're asking.
I know that ;)
LK ... I was referring to Fall of Myth Drannor and/or Cormanthyr - Empire of Elves, where no "matron" (AFAIK) is listed. Not saying that the houses and clans were solely led by males, but the impression lingers heavily. Regarding THE Elven queen, methink's she's "only" the leaderess because of the untimely death of her husband.
LK ... I was referring to Fall of Myth Drannor and/or Cormanthyr - Empire of Elves, where no "matron" (AFAIK) is listed. Not saying that the houses and clans were solely led by males, but the impression lingers heavily.
-Elves of Evermeet lists matrons of Elven houses.
Regarding THE Elven queen, methink's she's "only" the leaderess because of the untimely death of her husband.
-Not particularly, no. While Zaor was alive and well, Evermeet: Island of the Elves still make mentions of how Amlauril was the heart and soul of Evermeet, and of the Elven nation. And, Amlauril was chosen as a Chosen by the Seldarine, not Zaor. Again, before his death.
-Elves of Evermeet lists matrons of Elven houses.
I'll have a look into that, even though it does not change the facts for Myth Drannor.
-Not particularly, no. While Zaor was alive and well, Evermeet: Island of the Elves still make mentions of how Amlauril was the heart and soul of Evermeet, and of the Elven nation. And, Amlauril was chosen as a Chosen by the Seldarine, not Zaor. Again, before his death.
Wow. Not that I am impressed or something. She's still just one queen among many males.
Edit:
Amlaruil rules with the advice of her Council of Matrons, a circle of elder females of all subraces.
(Evermeet, p. 15)
... is about all info there is. No details, ranks or whatever given. Hm, hm.
-Not particularly, no. While Zaor was alive and well, Evermeet: Island of the Elves still make mentions of how Amlauril was the heart and soul of Evermeet, and of the Elven nation. And, Amlauril was chosen as a Chosen by the Seldarine, not Zaor. Again, before his death.
Ah, if the Seldarine never existed as a retcon, how can she then be still a Chosen of them, or is this a thing which also have not happened (like avatars of several Gods which never existed in the ToT)?
She's not really the Chosen of the Seldarine, since those silly elves got it all wrong and have been worshipping human deities all along... silly elves. So silly, that even Corellon has disavowed them as the head of their pantheon in frustration and now takes worshippers of all races, even orcs, just to put them in their place. ;)
Arrghh! That happens when someone refuses to be resurrected or send a postcard from the afterlife. Humans would have done this. But hey, Corellon takes all races to his afterlifeparty? Even dwarves? I think he will regret this.
Gods but what an unspeakable horrendous idea.
Am I the only one who has a problem with this?
You are not the only one! Eilistraee was, and still is as I refuse to accept 4e Realms (not 4e in general). Eilistraee was a bad deity to kill off.
All gods in this novels died a little bit too easy. Hey when six stupid guys could make a little bit abrakadabra and then a god is gone, why the heck did the elves of the past did not do this to Lolth or the other gods like Gruumsh and Malar, and the Dark Seldarine? And also this cutting of heads, huuh? It was her own sword, Eilistraee made it, so if I would be a much knowing god creating a superweapon, I would have built in a little trick that it could not wielded against me. And then, why must she come out of the sky and be mortal? Why not send a normal Avatar? She was a goddess, even I have known, that Halisstra is gona kill her, so why would a supermind of a god not get this idea? Hey when six stupid guys could make a little bit abrakadabra and then a god is gone, why the heck did the elves of the past did not do this to Lolth or the other gods like Gruumsh and Malar, and the Dark Seldarine?
A great question, and one I've asked before, myself.
Seidon ... I gather you get DD from a legal source, yes?!
Of course. I am vehemently opposed to piracy. It has economic ramifications not to mention a friend loaned my sister a movie she later learned was not legally obtained and it permanently seems to have affected some of the workings of her PS2.
:D
Drow = corrupt, evil, black skin elf
Dark elf = redemption, good, dark (brown skin elf)
2 different races of elf (or subtypes)?
Trying to stay as PC as I can...
You were born an African American and then after rising above your childhood you then became an Hispanic?
(example of going Drow to Dark Elf)
What happens if you get corrupted? Your race changes again.
Trying to stay as PC as I can...
You were born an African American and then after rising above your childhood you then became an Hispanic?
(example of going Drow to Dark Elf)
Ummm, No. There is nothing in the real world to compare this to. It's best to completely avoid any real world ethnicities when describing fantasy races.
Well, it's a mythological/magical event. The closest we can compare it that I know of is a bit in the Bible (Genesis 9:20-27), where God cursed Ham and his descendants... It is not usually referred to much for obvious reasons, but it is similar in some ways.
I just wanted to understand what was going on and the best way is use real world events (even if they are loosely drawn). So it is basically what I said. I guess that doesn't really make sense but I guess its better than nothing?
So the curse isn't as much as what Zeus did when he "made" the Minotaur?
Using your example Shaman... wasn't it Noah that cursed Ham's son Canaan and not God?
Using your example Shaman... wasn't it Noah that cursed Ham's son Canaan and not God?
It was Noah who said "Cursed be Canaan" (and that's off the top of my head, btw).
I agree that this is dodgy territory though, and best avoided.
Let me understand this....
Drow = corrupt, evil, black skin elf
Dark elf = redemption, good, dark (brown skin elf)
2 different races of elf (or subtypes)?
Trying to stay as PC as I can...
You were born an African American and then after rising above your childhood you then became an Hispanic?
(example of going Drow to Dark Elf)
What happens if you get corrupted? Your race changes again.
Well, I doubt it is as simple as that, though having seen how the simplification of the rules happened upon us with 4E ...
Anyway, the whole concept is problematic. You cannot simply turn the old "evil" drow into new "good" dark elves. I doubt that those who have been turned about will auto-re-aligned, though stranger things have happened. You see, the whole redemption stuff is oh-so scary in theory that one cannot say for sure. What is feasible though ... in day and ages to come, we will see the "usually* evil" drow (being led by Lolth et al) and the "usually not evil" dark elves. Whether the drow in game will still refer to themselves as dark elves too (as they have done for ages in novels) remains to be seen, but I guess that will all be swept under the carpet and people will only become confused if they read the old novels.
*Usually ... well, for the complexity of the game I hope that the "drow" will have their non-evil (which is not necessarily "good") people and the "dark elves" their evil chaps. The FR novels have, over the years, created a good and diverse image of all elven subraces - be they usually* good or evil. I would hope that they do not get re-categorized and stereotypical again.
So the curse isn't as much as what Zeus did when he "made" the Minotaur?
It was not Zeus, it was Poseidon who was angry because Minos did not want to sacrifice the white thing and so he made the wife of Minos to fall in love with this animal and got pregnant of it. ;)
Well, I doubt it is as simple as that, though having seen how the simplification of the rules happened upon us with 4E ...
Anyway, the whole concept is problematic. You cannot simply turn the old "evil" drow into new "good" dark elves. I doubt that those who have been turned about will auto-re-aligned, though stranger things have happened. You see, the whole redemption stuff is oh-so scary in theory that one cannot say for sure. What is feasible though ... in day and ages to come, we will see the "usually* evil" drow (being led by Lolth et al) and the "usually not evil" dark elves. Whether the drow in game will still refer to themselves as dark elves too (as they have done for ages in novels) remains to be seen, but I guess that will all be swept under the carpet and people will only become confused if they read the old novels.
*Usually ... well, for the complexity of the game I hope that the "drow" will have their non-evil (which is not necessarily "good") people and the "dark elves" their evil chaps. The FR novels have, over the years, created a good and diverse image of all elven subraces - be they usually* good or evil. I would hope that they do not get re-categorized and stereotypical again.
Why not? Elves are not a normal species created by a normal evolution. Like written in Evermeet: Island of Elves they are much more like dragons creatures of the Weave and magic itself.
In the novels of Smedman it is also said that only the Drow who allready worshipped Eilistraee (and so were allready good alligned) became (light?) Dark Elves. And also the descendants of Miyeritar were also redeemed, because they were not corrupted by Wendonai (as magical beeings I think a genom of a magical creature like a demon has more influence on the result and behavior of the offspring, than it would have on something "normal". It is a magical creature and now it gets a bit dark magic in it). But they must not be purely good, they only get the chance to be it and it seems to me that most of this few (it is said it would be only some hundred or so) were not pure evil beings. I think some were like Q'arlynd the wizards of Sshamath more pragmatic and neutral. With the new Allignment System it seems to me that it would be easier to show there a difference to normal chaotic spiderkissers.
Huh? Are you saying that you don't have varying degrees of gender? :P
Cheers, LT.
Typically:
XX=Female
XY= male.
Innie or outie. USually that is all that is necessary to determine wheter a person is female or male.
*Usually ... well, for the complexity of the game I hope that the "drow" will have their non-evil (which is not necessarily "good") people and the "dark elves" their evil chaps.
Not that we needed yet another elven subrace.
It was not Zeus, it was Poseidon who was angry because Minos did not want to sacrifice the white thing and so he made the wife of Minos to fall in love with this animal and got pregnant of it. ;)
Why not? Elves are not a normal species created by a normal evolution. Like written in Evermeet: Island of Elves they are much more like dragons creatures of the Weave and magic itself.
In the novels of Smedman it is also said that only the Drow who allready worshipped Eilistraee (and so were allready good alligned) became (light?) Dark Elves. And also the descendants of Miyeritar were also redeemed, because they were not corrupted by Wendonai (as magical beeings I think a genom of a magical creature like a demon has more influence on the result and behavior of the offspring, than it would have on something "normal". It is a magical creature and now it gets a bit dark magic in it). But they must not be purely good, they only get the chance to be it and it seems to me that most of this few (it is said it would be only some hundred or so) were not pure evil beings. I think some were like Q'arlynd the wizards of Sshamath more pragmatic and neutral. With the new Allignment System it seems to me that it would be easier to show there a difference to normal chaotic spiderkissers.
This is interesting because I thought someone always said elves do not evolve. I figured if the subraces have different stats and racial stuff then they must have evovled a bit differently somewhere.
This is interesting because I thought someone always said elves do not evolve. I figured if the subraces have different stats and racial stuff then they must have evovled a bit differently somewhere.
I don't meant evolution, what I wanted to say is that elves are some kind of magical beings and if you mix their "magic" with something evil than the result will be tainted. But you are right how did all the subraces fit in?
Before 4E I would have said maybe some god of the elves influenced some of the elves so they were more like the god itself, something like a favorite elf
But now it would not seem right because why didn't they do the same with humans, that are more worshippers for every god and so the humans are more important for their power. Now I think a god would care much more for the humans, because it are the humans who needed more attention, they are more numerous, jealously and would change their patron deities if they felt that the gods did not take them serious.Not that we needed yet another elven subrace.
We most certainly not, the Drizzt-brigade is another matter though.
I'll have a look into that, even though it does not change the facts for Myth Drannor.
-Sure, sure. But, not one stroke does a picture paint, or something to that effect.
Wow. Not that I am impressed or something. She's still just one queen among many males.
-And, a king is just a male among many females.
Edit:
(Evermeet, p. 15)
... is about all info there is. No details, ranks or whatever given. Hm, hm.
-And? It fits the criteria I stated.
Ah, if the Seldarine never existed as a retcon, how can she then be still a Chosen of them, or is this a thing which also have not happened (like avatars of several Gods which never existed in the ToT)?
-Another retcon to fix the problems created by the retcon. Easy enough, when you're changing reality.
Elves are not a normal species created by a normal evolution.
-Emphasis mine. Right. Mind you, I didn't read anything else in your argument. I'm just pointing this out to Stigger.
Not that we needed yet another elven subrace.
-Of course we did. As long as it was done right, of course.
...and I am pretty sure elves evolved and were not just made wood, wild, gold/moon.
-Well, you're wrong, then. Elves do not evolve. They have a divine genesis, and have not changed from those "templates".
I lump gold and moon together because they pretty much are the same subrace in my eyes.
-Culturally, Sun Elves and Moon Elves are the most similar. The two have lived and coexisted together on Faerûn for 25,000+ years. Since the fall of Occidian, Sun Elves and Moon Elves have had their empires together. Occidian was primarily Sun Elven, while Sharlarion was originally primarily Moon Elven. The fall of Occidian by an Orc horde led by the demon Haeksharr (Sp?) led to the Sun Elves and Moon Elves to integrate Sharlarion, which would eventually evolve into Aryvandaar.
This is my perception though and I have not really thought too deeply into it because it is just a game and not reality. ;)
-And yet, theistic existentialists and atheistic hermeneuticists exist.
-And? It fits the criteria I stated.
Well yes. Your criteria. And not much more.
It's like saying there were Roman "matrons" too and they certainly had a say here and there and in the shadows of the males. But the males still held the reigns of power, and very close to their chests too.And, BTW, we at least know of more than one Roman "matron" with some political influence.
anyway, ....... yes i think i shall just keep that to myself
Well yes. Your criteria. And not much more.
-Righteo!
what bile this has become.
anyway, ....... yes i think i shall just keep that to myself
Well, rest assured, we've only seen the tip of the iceberg so far. August 2008 will re-invent the Realms as a setting.
what bile this has become.
anyway, ....... yes i think i shall just keep that to myself
Yes. That is exactly what they have created. They have created a disgusting fluid that makes people vomit. You are one hundred percent correct.
You guys mean this thread is FUBAR?
I defer to the wisdom of the hands of karsus, and lord karsus on that
I'd just finished Ascendancy of the Last and was a bit upset with the end. Also a bit confused, more on that in a moment.
Followed that up by reading Evermeet. I'd found it quite interesting to be reading about the exile of Lolth and her children. It was interesting that Corellon had told Vhaeraun right up front, that the day he raised a hand against his sister would be the day he died. And that came to pass.
Makes you wonder if Daddy wasn't there when he stepped through the gate going "Dangit boy! I done told you what'd happen if you tried to start something with your sis! *stabs*" Then turns to his daughter "Here you can have his things".
Anyway... I'm really wondering if Eilistraee is dead. I'm hoping not as I was really starting to like her with her being a focus in the books I've been reading lately. Lots of things are saying she is, but there are some contradictions all located in the book featuring her death.
I don't recall where in the book but I remember a comment being made that without Wendonai's essence in the Crescent Blade it would no longer have it's power. So, as the actions played out...
Halisstra cuts Statue Qilue's throat, Wendonai hops inside through cut.
Wednonai Qilue now boasts about a lot and is struck down by moonlight banishing Wendonai back to the Abyss (rendering the Crescent Blade powerless?)
Wendonai Qilue melts away to reveal Eilistraee Qilue.
Cavatina is all wide eyed in awe.
Halisstra chops off Cavatina's head with the Crescent Blade.
Some Drow become Dark Elves.
Halisstra chops off Elistraee Qilue's head with Crescent Blade. Lolth heals Halisstra and the Crescent Blade breaks.
Laeral freezes Halisstra, Leliana drives silent singing sword into Halisstra killing her (Sending her back to Lolth I would guess).
Now the part that doesn't mesh.
Cavatina is then described on the Fugue plane where Corellon's two elven messengers come to take her to Arvandor.
How does that work?
If Cavatina was killed by the Crescent Blade her souls hould have been destroyed, but perhaps the comment was right in that with Wendonai no longer in the Crescent Blade, it was nothing more than a ordinary sword.
So since Eilistraee Qilue were killed after Cavatina, then wouldn't they also still exist? Qilue's soul couldn't be destroyed if Cavatina's exists.
So yeah Eilistraee basically pulled a Jesus for the sins of the drow, so where's her resurrection?
Just don't see how they could be dead if Cavatina is "alive".
While we are at it, Halisstra still stands on that plane, doesn't she?
If there was something which really galled me, it was the good to good and bad to bad ending. All the "good" (not strictly in terms of alignment) were either killed or became "brown", while the baddies stayed "black". Then again, we did not read much about the "baddies" after the climax.
Followed that up by reading Evermeet. I'd found it quite interesting to be reading about the exile of Lolth and her children. It was interesting that Corellon had told Vhaeraun right up front, that the day he raised a hand against his sister would be the day he died. And that came to pass.
Makes you wonder if Daddy wasn't there when he stepped through the gate going "Dangit boy! I done told you what'd happen if you tried to start something with your sis! *stabs*" Then turns to his daughter "Here you can have his things".
-Which, in theory, is 100% possible. We have no details about what happened. The doors were definitely closed. All we know is that Vhaeraun went in, and the Masked Lady came out.
Now the part that doesn't mesh.
Cavatina is then described on the Fugue plane where Corellon's two elven messengers come to take her to Arvandor.
How does that work?
If Cavatina was killed by the Crescent Blade her souls hould have been destroyed, but perhaps the comment was right in that with Wendonai no longer in the Crescent Blade, it was nothing more than a ordinary sword.
-Indeed, this is a seeming continuity gaffe. The book specifically states that being beheaded by the Crescent Blade utterly destroys one's soul. And yet, at the end, Cavatina still has a spirit, having been beheaded by the Crescent Blade. So, there's one of two solutions:
(A) We were told that being beheaded by the Crescent Blade destroyed your soul by a character in the book. He/she could have been wrong.
(B) This aspect of the Crescent Blade was forgotten about by the author.
How does that work?
If Cavatina was killed by the Crescent Blade her souls hould have been destroyed, but perhaps the comment was right in that with Wendonai no longer in the Crescent Blade, it was nothing more than a ordinary sword.
So since Eilistraee Qilue were killed after Cavatina, then wouldn't they also still exist? Qilue's soul couldn't be destroyed if Cavatina's exists.
So yeah Eilistraee basically pulled a Jesus for the sins of the drow, so where's her resurrection?
Just don't see how they could be dead if Cavatina is "alive".
A thing I asked myself some days ago when I read this passage a second time. There is also another thing that makes no sense. The Crescent Blade got its strength through Wendonai, who possessed the blade. But then he got hold of Qilué after Halisstra tried to behead her. So his soul would be completly in Qilués' body and not in the blade. How could then the blade still function, if the demon could no longer lend it his strength and soul?
I think that is a scene where Mrs. Smedman made some fatal errors and had not really remembered her own storyline and the rules of D&D.
Was it a goof in the writing, or was it intentional.
I think it was even Qilue herself who thought banishing Wendonai would render the Crescent Blade useless.
So we have the first person killed after Wendonai is banished back the abyss, winding up on the Fugue Plane and reattaching her head. So her soul is intact. Reasoning it out only tells us the same should have happened for Qilue and Eilistraee. Personally I'd have liked her to have survived and be brought back into the Seldarine by her Father.
So is it also a bit of a retcon that the dark elves are brown skinned, even though according to other stuff like Evermeet, they did start out with black skin and white hair? Or I wonder is it by tribe. *shrugs*
So is it also a bit of a retcon that the dark elves are brown skinned, even though according to other stuff like Evermeet, they did start out with black skin and white hair? Or I wonder is it by tribe. *shrugs*
:D Thats what I asked Mrs. Cunningham myself, she told me to come here for it. Nice that you are asking for me.
So we have the first person killed after Wendonai is banished back the abyss, winding up on the Fugue Plane and reattaching her head. So her soul is intact. Reasoning it out only tells us the same should have happened for Qilue and Eilistraee. Personally I'd have liked her to have survived and be brought back into the Seldarine by her Father.
The only thing I can think of is that Corellon absorbed Eilistraee (and so Qilué) and took her portfolio to his. Maybe that is what L. Smedman wanted to tell us with the last scene of the sava game, when Eilistraees Realm was not destroyed and Corellon walked in there and took her seat at the game board. So her soul becames part of her father (like Vhaerauns shadowy beeing changed Eilistraee, there seemed to be some significant thing with the mention of this crescent moon amulett on his chest?). It would have been an easy way to explain the changes for this part of the seldarine pantheon in 4ed, he absorbed simply all the gods.
So is it also a bit of a retcon that the dark elves are brown skinned...
-No, no it is not.
So is it also a bit of a retcon that the dark elves are brown skinned...
-No, no it is not.
Lord Karsus, could you explain more on that.
I've read both that they did start out brown skinned with dark hair, and black skinned with white hair.
Which is correct? I thought maybe you'd read more on the subject somewhere.
Is it saying they started out black skinned, but are now brown to set them apart from the drow, or is the official fiction that they originally had brown skin, and the Descent turned it black.
I'm currently reading Evermeet, and the mention of the Ilythiiri, has them as black skinned with white hair, and that was pre-Descent.
Could it be by tribe in that the Miyeritari were originally brown skinned where the Ilythiiri were originally black skinned?
That would make sense as it was the Miyeritari and followers of Eilistraee had their skin turned from black to brown.
Also does anyone know if there has been any really well done art depicting the Crescent Blade?
While the original Dark Elves from before the Crown Wars were merely dusky elves with pale hair, the drow of the Underdark have, over the millennia of exile, darkened to obsidian and taken on their more familiar visages as enemies.
(p. 126)
TGHotR as well as LP III retconned old lore in so far, as they a) said that the dark elves were originally (darker-skinned) "green" elves, and b ) that the drow who were "redeemed" during the events in LP III changed their skin colour to brown. IMHO, brown is as much dusky as yellow or pink is "dawn'y". If anything, dusky means "shadowy, grey (ashen), dark".
Which is correct? I thought maybe you'd read more on the subject somewhere.
-The dusky-skinned is the correct one. The Drow became pitch black when the curse that cast them into the Underdark was put in effect. Their bodies were changed to reflect the darkness in their hearts.
Also does anyone know if there has been any really well done art depicting the Crescent Blade?
-I don't believe there is any art depicting it. There's a limited pool of possibilities (the covers of the WotSQ books, and the Lady Penitent trilogy), and, as far as I remember, none of those covers feature that particular weapon.
Maybe it only said dark...*shrugs*
Hrm, here's a question, was Araushnee/Lolth, and her two children always black skinned? I know in Evermeet they are.
Regarding the art, I thought maybe someone had seen a really well done version in some fan art. I wonder how curved it would be, fairly to be reffered to as a crescent, maybe like a shamshir? The one on wikipedia has a very pronounced curvature. I'll have to go back and find the description of the Crescent Blade.
I thought that might be the case on the skin colors, seems Evermeet just missed the part about them being dark skinned but not black before the Descent. Was double checking to see if it did say the were black skinned, but so far it mentions Ka'Narlist as being a dark elf with crimson eyes and stark white hair.
Maybe it only said dark...*shrugs*
Evermeet was written before 1998 and from what I remember Elaine Cunningham told me, there was nothing known to her of this brown skin thing. So I think it was a change made in the years after that and came then with 3rd Edition. So it is a retcon, but not an error in Evermeet (cause she could not have known what they change in the future ;) )
I thought that might be the case on the skin colors, seems Evermeet just missed the part about them being dark skinned but not black before the Descent. Was double checking to see if it did say the were black skinned, but so far it mentions Ka'Narlist as being a dark elf with crimson eyes and stark white hair.
Maybe it only said dark...*shrugs*
Hrm, here's a question, was Araushnee/Lolth, and her two children always black skinned? I know in Evermeet they are.
-Just like 'White', 'Black', 'Hispanic', and other ethnicities come with a large degree of variance in skin color, so too did Dark Elves. Dusky can range anywhere from black to gray to olive to bronze...
Here's how religions work.
A bunch of cultists gather in the street one day, and decide to worship the god Zog, who looks like a two toed she toad. The cultists build a secret base, foment dissent, and take over a city, where everyone now is forced to worship Zog.
In order to increase the worship of Zog, since Zog is an incredibly ugly two toed she toad, the cultists pray to Zog and after a while, decide to give Zog a decidedly more human visage so that people are not worshiping the ugly frog god all the time. The god notices this, and begins assuming the form of a beautiful maiden, simply to placate it's worshippers and because the sacrifices are good.
People build statues. They forget about the toad part. Zog looks like a human female, but is really a two toed she toad. Only those wise in the ancient mysteries know that Zog is a toad god.
Basically, Lolth looks like a drow because it benefits her to do so, because that's what drow look like, and most people are far more likely to worship a god who looks like them.
So there's your answer.
For some reason, Araushnee / Lolth was always portrayed as a drow.
-She's especially dark skinned, that's all. It's explainable. And, also, note: deities are just globs of Divine/Incarnum energy. They can take the form of whatever pleases them.
-She's especially dark skinned, that's all. It's explainable. And, also, note: deities are just globs of Divine/Incarnum energy. They can take the form of whatever pleases them.
That was not the point. Lolth has always been depicted as a drow - in colour. Not dusky, not shadowy, not brown - just black. As were her children.
That was not the point. Lolth has always been depicted as a drow - in colour. Not dusky, not shadowy, not brown - just black. As were her children.
-While it's a subjective matter, in my book, shadowy certainly applies to the color black.
Menzoberranzan still exists and is the largest city in the Underdark.
Welcome "Vault of the Drow II".
(On another sidenote ... what shambles: Rashemen - During the Thay civil war the witches eliminated the Durthans. Off with another cool neutral / evil powergroup.)
(Even worse: Dambrath still exists. The Crinti (half-drow) are gone.)
Heck ... I get 10 ouuta 10 for my Menzo prediction!
Welcome "Vault of the Drow II".
(On another sidenote ... what shambles: Rashemen - During the Thay civil war the witches eliminated the Durthans. Off with another cool neutral / evil powergroup.)
(Even worse: Dambrath still exists. The Crinti (half-drow) are gone.)
I agree, I enjoyed the Crinti and the Durthans (well, based on what little was known about them). Although, I don't see why Durthans couldn't just pop up again--they were basically just dark witches.
Heck ... I get 10 ouuta 10 for my Menzo prediction!
-Yeah, well...Between you, me, and the wall, I think that one was fairly obvious. ;)
-They weren't going to destroy it, so there's only one other thing to do: Make it bigger and more important!
I do not consider any of that series canon.
its my realms and I want it this way.
Whats in your bookshelf?
I wonder how many people complained about the time of troubles screwing up their lame, unchanging view of the realms.(It may not have been too many due to the relative newness of the Realms at that point, but I bet people objected based on the same inane reasons I have heard about the recent changes...)
The point is that it makes for a.boring world if evil doesn't win every once in a while...
Eilistraee was put in the Realms after the Seldarine was shoe horned in the realms.
she was created for the realms.
lolth, Corellon LArethian and a good deal of the other members of the Seldarine are all Brought over from Greyhawk.
as for the time of troubles, back when they took all the 1e out and put in the 2e switches.
they could of made those changes subtle and I doubt many would have noticed back then.....
That wasn't even my point. My point was that these changes are often planned in advance and for a reason.
and such reasons may just of been listening to a select few who did not like her or good drow or mearly an eddition change
but I wont go there as it will only start an edition war...... or attempt one
Praise the ARt that rumor is false
Mystra died???
Praise the ARt that rumor is false
Agreed, Midnight died, yes, but Mystra is still around, in some form or another. She stored alot of herself in her Chosen, so as long as one of them are still alive then a part of Mystra still lives on, not only that but theres still pockets of Spellplage around, or Blue Fire, whatever you want to call it, thats essentially remnants of the Weave, so it stands to reason that theres part of Mystra in all those Plaguelands all over Toril. Then theres that temple of Mystra in Halruaa that turned all crystally blue, Im willing to bet theres a big chunk of Mystra wrapped up in there some how as well.
But any way I thought we was talking about Eilistraee!?
mmmmmmm yeah!!!
Thats kinda a play off of by Corellon's unseen beard!!!
Ive noticed referencing god beards seems to be very popular in the Realms, by Banes black beard, by Hoars beard, by Moradin's beard! I guess the elves decided that they needed to get on that too, so elves, from time to time, can be heard to utter by Corellon's unseen beard. That was uttered at least once in Elminster in Myth Drannor.
By Helm's rotting corpse!
OUch man!
Theres some of us here who are still bothered by that!
OUch man!
Theres some of us here who are still bothered by that!
Believe me, no one felt the loss of Helm more than I. My first Forgotten Realms character was a Helmite paladin. It hurt.
blasphemer
hehehe
I had a human paladin somewhere in my head that was a helmight....
dead via old age
Heh. Mine became Helm's "rebirth" of a sort, giving up his old identity to wear Helm's armour as a demigod of Vigilance under Torm.
Sounds interesting, Helm was bound to have chosen as well, so theres probably still parts of Helm runnin around the Realms. I dont know why they decided to off him, he as an interesting diety, i mean sure every world has its war gods and death gods and all that, but not too many had a god if Vigilance, not that I can think of any way.
And i cant remember my first Realms character or who they worshipped, well the first characters I made for FR were for the computer game the Pool of Radiance, the orginal SSI one, they were all named for comic book characters I liked at the time, there was the Punisher, Chance, Hawkeye, Hellstrom, Donatello, and Chakan. 50,000 xp to anyone who can tell me what comics each of those were from. Although I didnt think much about which gods they worshipped, Punisher definitely strikes me as a follower of Hoar, at the time I really liked Bane, he seemed so bad ass, but the characters ended up getting attacked by Banites that they was trying to join up with, stupid Banites, that and he did get his ass handed to him by Torm during the Time o Troubles, he stopped being so bad ass to me around that time.
Uhm lets see, I can remeber my real first character that I rolled up and actually played with pencil and paper and dice and other actuall people, that would be Bladehelm the Dwarf, also ripped off a comic book, but he wasnt a Realms character, lets see, uhm, I believe my first Realms character that I actually played with out a computer was Vark Mellatar, a Human Ranger from the Moonsea somewhere, I cant remember exactly where, this was years and years ago, but he didnt have a patron deity, he worshipped all the gods, depending on the situation. He didnt last too long, I think we played 2 or 3 times before that gaming group fell apart.
My Helmite was my first and longest character, but I also experimented with a fey-touched sorcerer, a half-ogre named Kurgh (who ended a campaign abruptly by failing a willpower test and murdering the rest of his troupe), a dim-witted but fanatical cleric of Bane, and a dwarf monk who practiced a kind of drunken boxing called Guthammer.
personally I think they should of axed Torm along with Tyr and kept Helm.
but then I think alot of things....
Here, here to Torm buying it in favor of Helm...
In Helm's Name!!!!
Never Betray your Trust!!!
I guess they just off'ed him because there's no more Lawful-Neutral.
Mr. Baker liked the idea and took it to the table and I guess the design team liked it too
For me, though, the real stickler is the position he now seems to have carved out for himself, the special sphere he commands - Sin. Thing is, sin is a pretty abstract concept, considering how a sin in the eyes of, say, Torm's church would be strikingly different than sin in the eyes of Malar's pack. True, Torm's idea of what sin entails - cutting down the weak, betraying one's word, abusing political power, etc. - is always going to be a pretty popular perspective, because it's one that stands up for the meek and promotes good will; thus, from the viewpoint of most progressive communities, Torm's concept of virtue and sin is one that's pretty appealing. However, Malar would argue that the weak are consumed and crushed every day under the law of nature, that oaths mean nothing when survival is at stake, and that power is best kept in the hands of the mighty, not to be shared amongst the feeble; thus, doing what Torm suggests would go against nature itself, and would thus be "sins" according to Malar's beliefs.
Asmodeus, by his very position, seems to hold sway over Sin in the most hard-nosed, black-and-white interpretation as possible; it pretty much seems that his sphere is ridiculously large, but even he isn't going to utilize it to its full extent. Honestly, I'm not too sure how much thought was given to that term when it was decided that Asmodeus would be bumped up to godhood, because, technically speaking, his sphere pretty much runs wild over the rest, if considered in the more realistic, morally-relative light that seems to have been pushed aside.
... Then again, I always knew there was a reason I kept him as simply Archdevil of Archdevils in my own FR.
You can argue that it's not a big deal (and I'll agree it isn't). But why did they even bother? Why pick at the old scab like that? Especially because it's so unnecessary. There are whole pantheons of evil gods in the Realms (Bane, Cyric and Shar already do everything Asmodeus does). All this does is taunt the wrong kind of people, who will gleefully blow this out of proportion to satisfy their own attention-starved intolerance. Why give them that kind of ammunition?
Considering the devs just rid the Realms of a bunch of real-world and fictional deities, this is like taking a step forward, two steps backward, and then repeatedly punching yourself in the crotch.
Sorry to be so colorful about it, but that's my two cents.
everything is canon. they want players t o have tehir eberron in the realms and the realms in eberron.
its all like a chest full of gold belonging to heathen gods of old, that has a blood priced and made a captain so evil that hell itself spit him back up as he captains a ship with black sails crewed by damned.......