My friend is starting up a 4E Realms game, but were probably going to start playing the Keep on the Shadowfell FR adaptation before either of the Realms books come out.
Do we know if they're a new race, or if something has split them apart from the old elves?
Is it just being retconned that they've always been around as gold/moon elves?
I believe the Feywild will be included in the Realms, and I'm going to have my PC be fresh "off the boat" from there, so I don't really need to know where eladrin live in the Realms.
But any info at all will help me out.
As I understand it the Fewild will be part of the Realms, just as the Shadowfell has been confirmed as part of the Realms.
I don't know how WotC plans to introduce the Fewild into the Realms or how exactly they will treat Gold and Moon elves.
I do know that for our Forgotten Realms 4E game (we're also playing H1 with the FR conversion) we've decided to treat Gold/Moon elves as Eladrin.
The Eladrin characters in our group all come from Faerûn. Now that I think about it I'm curious why none of the Eladrin players decided to have their characters come from the Feywild....
Gold and Sun elves, and those Star ones if you wish so... And perhaps Ilithyri(?), before they became Drow, if you play in the distant past.
Feywild seems kind of canon - an analogue to FR's 'fey realm', at least.
Star Elves/Sun Elves/Moon Elves = Eladrin
Wild Elves/Wood Elves = Elves
FR is a retconing of D&D, as any setting not GH/Mystara. ;)
-What are you talking about?
Feywild seems kind of canon - an analogue to FR's 'fey realm', at least.
-The "Feywild" is simply the Plane of Faerie.
According to Rich Baker...
Star Elves/Sun Elves/Moon Elves = Eladrin
Wild Elves/Wood Elves = Elves
-Right. Lythari will probably become Elves with the Werewolf "template", or whatever 4e uses, Avariel will probably become Elves with the "Winged" template, or whatever 4e uses, and Aquatic Elves will probably become Elves with the "Aquatic" template, or whatever 4e uses.
-In the setting, all of these Elves will still be referred to as Sun/Moon/Star/"Wild"/Wood Elves, but in mechanical D&D terms, they uses the relevant stats.
-What are you talking about?
If you think about it, any setting not of the ones that was the bases of D&D (or a particuliar edition, to a point), is 'retconing' basic assumptions and fluff of it. Like Greyhawk's Elves vs Eberron's.
A bit... ironic.
If you think about it, any setting not of the ones that was the bases of D&D (or a particuliar edition, to a point), is 'retconing' basic assumptions and fluff of it. Like Greyhawk's Elves vs Eberron's.
A bit... ironic.
-'Retcon' is not the correct term to use in this situation. You can't retcon something when there's nothing there.
What about the real Eladrin in the realms? You know, the arvandor celestials?
-Yeah, they got shafted. They'll get a new name, and be on their way.
-Yeah, they got shafted. They'll get a new name, and be on their way.
And all is right with the world.
Even though moon/sun elves will have Eladrin statistics their descriptions will be completely different and it might possibly end some racist relations between the two.
And all is right with the world.
-Not really. Elven-Eladrin (the Original Eladrin) relations just took a dive. Expect them to go on strike soon, followed by total separation from Elven society, which will end with a botched raid on the complex they hole themselves in...Not good...
Even though moon/sun elves will have Eladrin statistics their descriptions will be completely different and it might possibly end some racist relations between the two.
-Nope. The only thing that's changing is their D&D mechanics, and now they have the ability to randomly teleport, as per the 4e rules, I don't know them. Other than that, they're still Sun Elves and Moon Elves. You know how siblings fight...
What about the real Eladrin in the realms? You know, the arvandor celestials that live around the Elven pantheon?
They'll probably be ignored and retconned into nonexistance by default, given that the Realms is changing its cosmology for the second edition in a row. A shame.
They'll probably be ignored and retconned into nonexistance by default, given that the Realms is changing its cosmology for the second edition in a row. A shame.
-If it's any comfort (and I know it's not, but...) the Great Tree never really took root, pun intended...
). Eladrin can ascend to ghaele, bralani, firre, etc. in the paragon tier and to tulani in the epic tier.Well, without the infinite staircase Waukeen would still rot in the abyss.:D
-Not really. Elven-Eladrin (the Original Eladrin) relations just took a dive. Expect them to go on strike soon, followed by total separation from Elven society, which will end with a botched raid on the complex they hole themselves in...Not good...
I for one am not sorry to see them go (at least not being called Eladrin anymore). They're still called Ghaele and Bralani right? So what's the big deal?
-Nope. The only thing that's changing is their D&D mechanics, and now they have the ability to randomly teleport, as per the 4e rules, I don't know them. Other than that, they're still Sun Elves and Moon Elves. You know how siblings fight...
Sorry if I sounded confusing, what I meant was that even though their (moon/sun elves) 4e mechanics are going to be the same as the 4e-PHB Eladrin their going to still be described as different (ie. hair, skin color, etc.).
I never even knew or cared about the old eladrin. None of my players did either. We knew about angels, celestials and planar fiends butmost of the other planar beings never really jumped off the books at us. So the name change really didn't phase us. Perhaps that is what they counted on forthe majority of the gaming community. They just figured IMO that a few people would get bent out of shape over the name change.
I think after the Plague the Feywild "opened" up certain elves from Farie got more feyish and resemble the eladrin we see in the core book. They will also become more "in tune" with the Feywild (teleporting) while other elves stayed elvish and are closer to the Prime world.
I never even knew or cared about the old eladrin. None of my players did either. We knew about angels, celestials and planar fiends butmost of the other planar beings never really jumped off the books at us. So the name change really didn't phase us. Perhaps that is what they counted on forthe majority of the gaming community. They just figured IMO that a few people would get bent out of shape over the name change.
True, people get bent out of shape when it comes to Retcons but like I said, I'd rather have lots of Retcons like 2e to 3e than the mother of all RSE. But setting that aside, I find most (if not all) the changes to my liking and will probably use everything about 4eFR WotC publishes.
I for one am not sorry to see them go (at least not being called Eladrin anymore). They're still called Ghaele and Bralani right? So what's the big deal?
-That they are Eladrin, not something else. What would you think if I took mustard, and changed it's name to horseradish (being as that mustard and horseradish are both creamy and slightly spicy condiments put on sandwiches, so close enough)?
Sorry if I sounded confusing, what I meant was that even though their (moon/sun elves) 4e mechanics are going to be the same as the 4e-PHB Eladrin their going to still be described as different (ie. hair, skin color, etc.).
-Other than their D&D mechanics changing (and Rich Baker said that they no longer have pupils now. Ohhh!), the two Elven subraces are still the Sun and Moon Elves (and Star Elves) of old. Right. This isn't going to suddenly make the age old prejudices that Sun Elves have against Moon Elves, and Moon Elves have against Sun Elves go away magically, however.
If you think about it, any setting not of the ones that was the bases of D&D (or a particuliar edition, to a point), is 'retconing' basic assumptions and fluff of it. Like Greyhawk's Elves vs Eberron's.
A bit... ironic.
No.
What about the real Eladrin in the realms? You know, the arvandor celestials that live around the Elven pantheon?
A lot of creatures from 3E and pre-3E haven't returned yet and may not return. WotC only wants to bring creatures back if they can think of a good story reason for them to be in the game, and they mentioned time and again that they don't see a point to having so many different types of "good" creatures. Many planar creatures of all alignments were born out of the desire for "symmetry" (that is, the symmetry created by the Great Wheel cosmology), and that's something that WotC also wants to avoid.
I for one am not sorry to see them go (at least not being called Eladrin anymore). They're still called Ghaele and Bralani right? So what's the big deal?
Noble eladrins use titles like "Ghaele of Winter" and "Branlani of the Autumn Winds". In fact, the two I mentioned are in the Monster Manual.
-That they are Eladrin, not something else. What would you think if I took mustard, and changed it's name to horseradish (being as that mustard and horseradish are both creamy and slightly spicy condiments put on sandwiches, so close enough)?
Well, considering I hate mustard and horseradish, it doesn't affect me one bit and the same goes for 3.5 eladrin which considering they're still called Ghaele and Bralani doesn't affect anything. I don't even think they were listed as Eladrin in the DMG but i'm AFB right now.
-Other than their D&D mechanics changing (and Rich Baker said that they no longer have pupils now. Ohhh!), the two Elven subraces are still the Sun and Moon Elves (and Star Elves) of old. Right. This isn't going to suddenly make the age old prejudices that Sun Elves have against Moon Elves, and Moon Elves have against Sun Elves go away magically, however.
Oh, well at least their descriptions will change but their stats will stay the same even though they'll still have racial tensions. IMO that's better than them both having different stats along with the Green, Wood, Star elves all having their own different stats.
Well, considering I hate mustard and horseradish...
-You understand the general point of the post.
Oh, well at least their descriptions will change but their stats will stay the same even though they'll still have racial tensions. IMO that's better than them both having different stats along with the Green, Wood, Star elves all having their own different stats.
-I like subraces, so apparently that makes me crazy...
So the basic gist of it all is that they're moon/sun elves, and we have no idea about anything else.
So the basic gist of it all is that they're moon/sun elves, and we have no idea about anything else.
Yes, when it comes to their physical descriptions you will find the same difference as you did in 3e/2e/etc but they will be using the same game stats and mechanics. And IMO this is better considering moon/sun elves were from the same place originally so why they have different stats and not sub-races of humans is beyond me.
-I like subraces, so apparently that makes me crazy...
As do i, i just think there doesn't need to be a mechanical differences between all of them and that goes for dwarves and gnomes as well. If there is a difference, have it be aesthetic rather than different stats, favored classes, different proficiencies, etc.
Well this thread has continued on a very unhelpful tangent.
So the basic gist of it all is that they're moon/sun elves, and we have no idea about anything else.
Sorry, posts here can do that. I think elves will be linked to wild/wood elves and eladrin will be linked to gold/moon/star elves. They will all be considered elves even though the moon/star/gold ones will look like eladrin and have the stats from the core book. They may be called eladrin by some because ya just never know. Anyway I think that is all we know for now.
The Human Target was a cool comicbook.;)
I prefer
to this
Even when I played in Planescape I wasn't all too thrilled with that artists drawings so I am biased. I am an Oconnor fan now though. To each their own.;)
So the basic gist of it all is that they're moon/sun elves, and we have no idea about anything else.
-Yes, that's all there is. Mechanically, the Eladrin are represented by Sun/Moon/Star Elves, and that's all there is to it. Said Elven subraces are still said Elven subraces.
As do i, i just think there doesn't need to be a mechanical differences between all of them and that goes for dwarves and gnomes as well. If there is a difference, have it be aesthetic rather than different stats, favored classes, different proficiencies, etc.
-If they deserve a distinct subrace, then they should have different stats/etc. Otherwise, then there's no reason.
-If they deserve a distinct subrace, then they should have different stats/etc. Otherwise, then there's no reason.
So then every distinct subrace of humans should have stats that differ from the norm? Like Illuskans have say a +2 to Str or Rashemi having a +2 to Con, or Calishite's having say a +2 to Dex? If elves don't evolve and Moon/Sun elves have the same physiology why on Faerun would they have different stats? To me, it seemed that humans had the most subraces in the Realms, but they never had to adhere to different stats for each and they worked out fine. I don't see why that's now bad for elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc...
*g* I retcon the retcons,
I see your retcon with a retcon, and raise you a new era...
Oh, sorry... I thought we were playing "Cormyr Hold-'em". :P
I think the bottom Wizard looks Kick-a** while the above picture looks odd, strange, non-symmetrical, and...meh. But to each their own.
The top pic was done by the man who now owns his own IP (Spiderwick) - Tony DiTerlizzi - and was THE artist of ALL things planar in 2e. He MADE Planescape what it was, end of story.
The bottom pic is a WoW BloodElf - see for yourself -
So then every distinct subrace of humans should have stats that differ from the norm? Like Illuskans have say a +2 to Str or Rashemi having a +2 to Con, or Calishite's having say a +2 to Dex?
-I, personally, am a proponent of that. Through evolution, Illuskans are differant from Calashites. But, assigning differing stats to Human races opens up a can of worms when people start associating these Faerûnian ethnicities with real ethnicities. "What do you mean that X people have a minus to Y stat!".
If elves don't evolve and Moon/Sun elves have the same physiology why on Faerun would they have different stats?
-While Men may be created equally, not all Elves are created equally.
I see your retcon with a retcon, and raise you a new era...
Oh, sorry... I thought we were playing "Cormyr Hold-'em". :P
-Can I get in on this game? I'll raise you a fallen civilization (literally :D). I can do that. ;)
The top pic was done by the man who now owns his own IP (Spiderwick) - Tony DiTerlizzi - and was THE artist of ALL things planar in 2e. He MADE Planescape what it was, end of story.
meh, while better than the elf in the other post, they're nothing to write home about. And I never played or had the inclination to play Planescape.
The bottom pic is a WoW BloodElf - see for yourself -
Again, meh. It's a screen shot from a game. I would hope to God an artist's rendering is better than graphics from a vidoe game's screen shot. Now, if your saying the Blood Elves are similiar in appearance to Eladrin of 4e PHB, so what? The picture of the Eladrin wizard appeals to me more than the other elf. Maybe it's the artist? But like I said, to each their own.
-I, personally, am a proponent of that. Through evolution, Illuskans are differant from Calashites. But, assigning differing stats to Human races opens up a can of worms when people start associating these Faerûnian ethnicities with real ethnicities. "What do you mean that X people have a minus to Y stat!".
Hence why I believe getting rid of negative ability adjustments is a god-send. With humans in 4e having a +2 to any ability they wish, it really gives your character diversity (well slightly) more or less than another human.
-While Men may be created equally, not all Elves are created equally.
That's still no reason for moon elves, sun elves, wild elves, wood elves, aquatic elves, star elves, frost elves, desert elves, etc to all have different stats, favored classes, weapon proficiencies, and skill adjustments that differs from the basic elf format.
Hence why I believe getting rid of negative ability adjustments is a god-send. With humans in 4e having a +2 to any ability they wish, it really gives your character diversity (well slightly) more or less than another human.
-I never agreed that the plusses needed to be balanced with negatives, or else. Some races/subraces should receive negatives to certain statistics.
That's still no reason for moon elves, sun elves, wild elves, wood elves, aquatic elves, star elves, frost elves, desert elves, etc to all have different stats, favored classes, weapon proficiencies, and skill adjustments that differs from the basic elf format.
-The latter two do not exist in Faerûn (though, some sort of Desert-dwelling Elves were featured in the city al-Qehara in the novel Darkvision). That said...Yes there is. They are different. Culturally. Physically. Sociologically. Psychologically.
-I never agreed that the plusses needed to be balanced with negatives, or else. Some races/subraces should receive negatives to certain statistics.
Why? Negative ability adjustments, to me, seem to restrict a certain Role-Playing aspect that really shouldn't have any bearing on the mechanics of the game. If I want my dwarf to be mean and dour, that shouldn't represent EVERY dwarf on the entire planet. IMO rules-modified statistics only help but keep stereo-typical character in line (the disgruntled dwarf, the skinny yet weak elf, the strong but dumb and ugly half-orc), these things can be easily role-played without interference and adherance to some racial adjustment the designers THINK you should have. To hells with that I say.
-The latter two do not exist in Faerûn (though, some sort of Desert-dwelling Elves were featured in the city al-Qehara in the novel Darkvision). That said...Yes there is. They are different. Culturally. Physically. Sociologically. Psychologically.
Ah, elitism at it's finest. I can accept that they aren't the same in many reguards except for their physiological make-up. They (moon/sun/star) are created the same and since elves DON'T evolve they would have the same racial statistics. I can see things like different weapon proficiency and favored classes but the general biological make-up is the same, hence a +2 Dex, -2 Con for them. The same would go for wood and wild elves as well.
P.S.- I know the desert and artic elves don't exist in Faerun, just throwing them into the mix as well though ;)
that is the best picture of a gnome ever
as for eladrin, I like this:
Why?
-Because that's how "reality" works. If your race is the size of a pencil, the average person should not be as strong as a giant (going on the premise that there's nothing magical going on, and strength is relative to size). There can be exceptions (when the player puts his/her higher scores into these ability scores), but in general.
I can accept that they aren't the same in many reguards except for their physiological make-up. They (moon/sun/star) are created the same and since elves DON'T evolve they would have the same racial statistics.
-There's your problem. They weren't created the same. If they were, there wouldn't be differences between Sun, Moon and Star Elves.
P.S.- I know the desert and artic elves don't exist in Faerun, just throwing them into the mix as well though ;)
-Gotcha.
-Because that's how "reality" works. If your race is the size of a pencil, the average person should not be as strong as a giant (going on the premise that there's nothing magical going on, and strength is relative to size). There can be exceptions (when the player puts his/her higher scores into these ability scores), but in general.
Considering that in "reality", humans are the only thing we've got to work with and they come in all shapes and sizes. And I just don't think negative ability adjustments are needed for character creation in order to fit some sort of pre-determined mold.
-There's your problem. They weren't created the same. If they were, there wouldn't be differences between Sun, Moon and Star Elves.
Well then I guess 4e retconned that but I for one am happy with the change.
Considering that in "reality", humans are the only thing we've got to work with and they come in all shapes and sizes.
-And, with Humans, studies have been shown that different racial/ethnic groups have different strengths and weaknesses.
And I just don't think negative ability adjustments are needed for character creation in order to fit some sort of pre-determined mold.
-Like I said, there shouldn't have to be a negative to balance a positive. But, in certain cases, they fit.
Well then I guess 4e retconned that but I for one am happy with the change.
-How has this changed?
-And, with Humans, studies have been shown that different racial/ethnic groups have different strengths and weaknesses.
Through evolution and adaptation to their environment, which elves don't do.
-Like I said, there shouldn't have to be a negative to balance a positive. But, in certain cases, they fit.
Something which I never liked in previous setting because it forced a pre-determined mold which should've been RP'ed instead of forced into the mechanics.
-How has this changed?
Well, Eladrin in the 4e PHB have a +2 Dex and +2 Int. I don't forsee this changing with the Moon/Sun elves but the physical description on how they look, act, etc. will be different. Probably will be the same for Dwarves as well, gaining a +2 Con and +2 Wis for Shield/Gold dwarves as well.
Through evolution and adaptation to their environment, which elves don't do.
-No. But, as I said already, while all men might have been created equally, not all Elves were created equally.
Something which I never liked in previous setting because it forced a pre-determined mold which should've been RP'ed instead of forced into the mechanics.
-It only forced those who wanted to be "optimum", or whatever it's called. In perhaps my favorite campaign I was ever in (and, sadly, it only lasted a few months before my cousin, the DM, moved away), one of the PCs was a Halfling Barbarian. Sure, he got the small size, and the penalties, but he had a story, and wanted to be a Halfling Barbarian. The numbers didn't stop him. Had such a "cute" name, too: Squeek
I don't forsee this changing with the Moon/Sun elves but the physical description on how they look, act, etc. will be different.
-We've already been confirmation that this won't be the case. Rich has stated that the "Eladrin" in the Forgotten Realms (Sun, Moon and Star Elves) will be changing a little bit (they will now be pupil less, apparently), but he has been very...'adamant', for a lack of better words coming to mind, that they are still Sun Elves, Moon Elves and Star Elves.
I think the bottom Wizard looks Kick-a** while the above picture looks odd, strange, non-symmetrical, and...meh. But to each their own.
I like the bottom Wizard myself. He reminds me of GothicDan, and looks like a character LK might play.
He reminds me of GothicDan, and looks like a character LK might play.
-This is Dan:
-And, I don't know any famous people who look like me...
He reminds me of GothicDan, and looks like a character LK might play.
-This is Dan:
-And, I don't know any famous people who look like me...
--And, I don't know any famous people who look like me...
you're supposed to say Brad Pitt, whose gonna know different?
you're supposed to say Brad Pitt, whose gonna know different?
-Heh, I was actually looking for a picture of Brad Pitt to post, but couldn't find anything that looked "D&D-related" enough.
-Heh, I was actually looking for a picture of Brad Pitt to post, but couldn't find anything that looked "D&D-related" enough.
You must not have tried super hard.
Oh Crom, now I'm derailing my own thread.
-Heh, I was actually looking for a picture of Brad Pitt to post, but couldn't find anything that looked "D&D-related" enough.
Is that all? Shoot... ;)
Or even better:
Be fair about this... post some of his wife.
*Barf*
Be fair about this... post some of his wife.
Well... that would just be... off topic and stuff. :P
-But, I'm supposed to be a Ar'Tel'Quess Selu'Taar, so...
Let me go find an elvish translator....
-But, I'm supposed to be a Ar'Tel'Quess Selu'Taar, so...
Sorry, I was distracted by Brad. ;) What's this about a gray elf high mage?
18DELTA :D
Let me go find an elvish translator....
-Go figure! Elves of Faerûn has an Elven dictionary!
Sorry, I was distracted by Brad. ;) What's this about a gray elf high mage?
-...D-D-Did you call me a Gray Elf?
-...D-D-Did you call me a Gray Elf?
Whoops! (gawd... long day, -2 for 2)... SUN elf, sowwy. ;)
I blame Brad Pitt.
-That's alright...I guess mechanically, I'd be an "Eladrin", now...I still have pupils, though.
Are you sure you still have pupils? ;)
-Ow...
-Yes, yes I still do.
*Barf*
Be fair about this... post some of his wife.
My apologies MT, I believe this may be my fault
So why do all these gold elves suddenly develop the ability to teleport? Realistically, the number of Gold Elves/Eladrin would be very small, as when the spellplague hit, they'd be teleported into trees, flowers, angry bears, and youth hostels.
-Let me check...
-Ow...
-Yes, yes I still do.
Hm... I dunno... when the Spellplague hit, you should've been zapped with that cerulean firey energy stuff and gone weak in the legs as your natural feywild connection became stronger. The eladrin tended to shout "My eyes! My eyes!" as they turned into greenish-pupilless orbs (with a glowy after-effect, you know).
So what do you say to that?!?! HMMM!!!?!?!?! :D
So why do all these gold elves suddenly develop the ability to teleport?
-According to Rich Baker, the Elves of Faerie have always had this ability (and, when analyzing how Lythari work, there is some precedence to this. Although Lythari do not possess the ability to teleport themselves, they had very acute senses, and can detect places where the fabric of reality between the Material Plane and the Plane of Faerie are weak, which shows perhaps a vestigial sense). With the Spellplague effecting the entire cosmology of the setting, the Plane of Faerie "came closer" to the Material Plane. The best way to describe this, I guess, would be that the planar borders weakened even more. With this, the Sun/Moon/Star Elves (though, this should extend to ALL Elves) regained the ability to teleport to and from the Plane of Faerie.
Hm... I dunno... when the Spellplague hit, you should've been zapped with that cerulean firey energy stuff and gone weak in the legs as your natural feywild connection became stronger. The eladrin tended to shout "My eyes! My eyes!" as they turned into greenish-pupilless orbs (with a glowy after-effect, you know).
So what do you say to that?!?! HMMM!!!?!?!?! :D
-To that, I say that you've been driven mad from Spellplague. :P
-To that, I say that you've been driven mad from Spellplague. :P
You've seen the artwork for eladrin in the 4E player's guide, yes? And Rich Baker's comment on them pupilless eyes? heh! ;)
With the Spellplague effecting the entire cosmology of the setting, the Plane of Faerie "came closer" to the Material Plane. The best way to describe this, I guess, would be that the planar borders weakened even more. With this, the Sun/Moon/Star Elves (though, this should extend to ALL Elves) regained the ability to teleport to and from the Plane of Faerie.
Excellent explanation.
Excellent explanation.
-I don't really think so. This is the analogy I like to use: The Prime Material Plane, and the Plane of Faerie were already layered on top of each other, close enough that portals where the fabric of the Prime Material Plane and the Plane of Faerie bleed into each other are extremely common. They are two sheets of paper that are laid on top of each other. How much closer can they possibly get, without an outright planar breach and such.
-I don't like the concept that Elves ("Eladrin") had the ability to teleport to begin with, either. If this was the case, the history of the Forgotten Realms would have been much different, potentially.
You've seen the artwork for eladrin in the 4E player's guide, yes?
-Yes.
And Rich Baker's comment on them pupilless eyes? heh! ;)
-Yes. I had a very deep, heart-to-heart conversation with Rin about how deeply this would effect me, and how the Forgotten Realms would never be the same ever again. :P
-I don't really think so. This is the analogy I like to use: The Prime Material Plane, and the Plane of Faerie were already layered on top of each other, close enough that portals where the fabric of the Prime Material Plane and the Plane of Faerie bleed into each other are extremely common. They are two sheets of paper that are laid on top of each other. How much closer can they possibly get, without an outright planar breach and such.
-I don't like the concept that Elves ("Eladrin") had the ability to teleport to begin with, either. If this was the case, the history of the Forgotten Realms would have been much different, potentially.
Well, yeah. That's the real problem with it. I hate the whole IDEA of the Feywild. It nauseates me beyond belief.
See, I could have lived with some of the changes if they didn't make the new lore so unbelievably crass and stupid.
But I can't. It's not just that I don't like the changes themselves, it's that they fell back on the useless DC Comics solution of "Let's have another Crisis/Millennium/Zero Event."
I wish they had just reset things to 1368. That would have been a better move than this.
-I don't like the concept that Elves ("Eladrin") had the ability to teleport to begin with, either. If this was the case, the history of the Forgotten Realms would have been much different, potentially.
I dunno. I think the transition from Faerie would be sufficient to strip them of that ability because moving onto the Prime when Faerie wasn't as 'close' to the Realms as it is now left them unable to 'tap' that Plane.
You could posit any number of reasons why Faerie was too far away....the presence of the Weave being first amongst them.
When the Weave was active, the Plane of Faerie was far away, however now that the Weave is gone, the Feywild is close.
As an aside: I wonder if we'll get a companion story to how the Feywild came to be close to the Realms, just as we learned that Shar was the cause behind the Shadowfell being close to the Realms.
-Yes.
-Yes. I had a very deep, heart-to-heart conversation with Rin about how deeply this would effect me, and how the Forgotten Realms would never be the same ever again. :P
*comfort* Here's some contact lenses. With pupils.
They are the descendants of the Eladrin which stayed closer to the feywild than the others.... I hate it, I would make separate races for High Elves, Moon Elves etc., and make the Eladrin a playable proto-form of the 3E Eladrin...
I would just ditch the whole Eldarin concept in general and replace them with Aasimar.
Ironically the natural elves had a natural connection to the Fey plane which sounds similar to the 4E Feywild. The immigrant elf homeworld (plane) of Faerie was something similar to Aber-Toril and was basically described as another world. Spelljammer references in FR even made Faerie be the Imperial Elven Homeworld from Spelljammer.
Personally I always suspected that the natural elves of Faerun were a result of the Faerie creator race. In 4E this can still be a possibility (even if it was my suspicion, not a fact) or easily be the natural elves migrated through more natural means. Basically walked through natural portals and the like. The High Magic Ritual that brought the Eladrin Elves could have left a lingering magical connection with the Feywild (Faerie) that was unaccessible until the Weave collapsed.
Just some thoughts
Wild/Green Elves, Dark Elves (Pre-Drow Descent), Avariel and Lythari were all naturally occuring races on Faerun. In Evermeet Island of Elves the Sun and Moon Elf immigrants from Faerie noticed that wherever they looked these natural and wild elves seemed to spring forth from the land. This easily explains why the Eladrin (Sun and Moon elves) can teleport with their connection to the Feywild and the Elf (Wild and Dark elves) cannot.
Ironically the natural elves had a natural connection to the Fey plane which sounds similar to the 4E Feywild. The immigrant elf homeworld (plane) of Faerie was something similar to Aber-Toril and was basically described as another world. Spelljammer references in FR even made Faerie be the Imperial Elven Homeworld from Spelljammer.
Personally I always suspected that the natural elves of Faerun were a result of the Faerie creator race. In 4E this can still be a possibility (even if it was my suspicion, not a fact) or easily be the natural elves migrated through more natural means. Basically walked through natural portals and the like. The High Magic Ritual that brought the Eladrin Elves could have left a lingering magical connection with the Feywild (Faerie) that was unaccessible until the Weave collapsed.
Just some thoughts
Nope, I remember that it stated directly in Grand History of the Realms that the first elves were transported from another plane by the Seelie Court in order to undermine the rule of the dragons. They just didn't specify which plane.
Still, I am glad to see the connection with the Faerie creator race and these groups of elves is there after all. The Green elves and Dark elves arriving through portals and other peoples means makes sense. The Gold Elves and Moon elves who arrived from Faerie were all participants in the High Magic Ritual that brought them to Toril. It is possible this magic left a lingering connection with their home that was unaccessible until the weave fell.
Ah ok. I've not yet gotten that book so I was going off of how Evermeet Island of Elves described it.
Still, I am glad to see the connection with the Faerie creator race and these groups of elves is there after all.
So I guess it makes sense to separate the Eldarin and the Elves consitering from the Realmslore angle their origins were totally different. But still, my questions remain unanswered. If there was one Faerie creator race that created both elves and eldarins along with a host of other creatures like pixies, fey, satyrs, and etc, how did the Eldarins end up forming a close tie with the Seldarine (if they are even the gods of the elves) while elves didn't, and what world did the elves originate on? Once those are answered, there remains the question of which plane (Faerie, or the elves homeworld) is the original origin of the species, if they are even from different planes at all. I woun't take dumbed down 4e lore for this, I need real Realmslore speculations, or even better, facts.
In 4E when the gods created life in the Middle world (or whatever it is called now) echoes and aftereffects caused similar forms to arise in the Feywild. These echoes are the Fey of 4E. One possible FR interpetation would be that the Creator Races were the mortal races the Gods originally created, and that the echoes of the Gods' creations in the Feywild was the Fey creator race discovering, conquering and populating the Feywild with their descendants or creations.
The elvish myth of Correllon fighting Gruumsh and his blood mixing with Sehanine's tears to form the first elves still works. All three gods exist in 4E. Both the Eladrin and the Elves could have been from this. This now could have taken place within the Feywild, after the Fey creator race had dominated it. The 4E Elf race of Green and Dark elves could have been those who did not absorb much of the Feywild's mystic potential. At first they were seen as lesser and quickly assimilated into the Fey creator race's dominions and while never conquered still had more dealings with the Fey than their Eladrin cousins. The Eladrin could be those who took on much more of the Feywild's natural aspects. With their more in tune natures they managed to form their own nations in further reaches away from the influence of the Fey creator race. With this isolation the Eladrin manage to keep ties with the gods who created them, Correllon and Sehanine. The Eladrin and Elf migrations to Faerun could still be same as was in previous editions. The Elves came when the remaining lands on Faerun the Fey creator race held were at risk from the Dragons. They were still tricked through portals for the green elves, then later the dark elves came from another portion of the Feywild when they recognized a conquerable land. Lastly, the gold and moon elf Eladrin come through after a disaster affecting one of the gold elf nations in the Feywild forces them to flee.
Not long after this the Dragons lose their dominant place on Faerun but the Fey creator race has already abandoned its holdings there.
Another possibility is that 4E FR drops the whole Five Creator Race thing, or completely changes them up. Or with the least possible change to FR Lore instead changing Core Lore they can make it that the gold elves and moon elves come from another world as they did before, it isn't the Feywild but is somewhat similar or they just don't have the Fey trait at all.
Regardless, right now it is all speculation. With the merging worlds bit the histories of most every race is now up in the air.
Personally I would rather see FR stick to its roots and have minimal exposure to core changes in 4e. But things can be worked out.
Well, yeah. That's the real problem with it. I hate the whole IDEA of the Feywild. It nauseates me beyond belief.
-It's just another name for the Plane of Faerie. You have a problem with the Plane of Faerie?
I dunno. I think the transition from Faerie would be sufficient to strip them of that ability because moving onto the Prime when Faerie wasn't as 'close' to the Realms as it is now left them unable to 'tap' that Plane.
-And, being as that all Elves originated from Faerie, they should all "regain" this ability. Not just Sun Elves/Moon Elves/Star Elves.
When the Weave was active, the Plane of Faerie was far away, however now that the Weave is gone, the Feywild is close.
-Faerie was never "far away", however one measures those things. As I said, with the prevalence of portals to and from, and such, it was "close", however one measures those things. Just not "close enough". Whatever that means, again.
As an aside: I wonder if we'll get a companion story to how the Feywild came to be close to the Realms, just as we learned that Shar was the cause behind the Shadowfell being close to the Realms.
-Spellplague. As it ran amok in the planes it made the Plane of Faerie come "closer". Again, however that works.
Now I have a new question. If Eldarins came from Faerie/Feywild, where did elves (lythari, avariels, green elves) come from and how are they even related to eldarin?
-They came from the Plane of Faerie. See Elves of Faerûn for more information.
Wild/Green Elves, Dark Elves (Pre-Drow Descent), Avariel and Lythari were all naturally occuring races on Faerun.
-Incorrect. All Elven subraces migrated to Realmspace. See Elves of Faerûn for more information.
-Yes. I had a very deep, heart-to-heart conversation with Rin about how deeply this would effect me, and how the Forgotten Realms would never be the same ever again. :P
How could I forget?:P
I like the "pupilless" eyes, but I wouldn't necessarily use them for my Realms. As with most other things, I prefer the Realms the way it was.
Nope, I remember that it stated directly in Grand History of the Realms that the first elves were transported from another plane by the Seelie Court in order to undermine the rule of the dragons. They just didn't specify which plane.
-Incorrect. The Fey creator race (That is, some kind of Sylvan-Fey creature that seemingly evolved on Abeir-Toril and has no relation to the Plane of Faerie) opened portals from Realmspace to the Plane of Faerie, though which the Green (Wood/"Wild") Elves, and later the Dark Elves, came through.
I would just ditch the whole Eldarin concept in general and replace them with Aasimar.
4E Eladrin are fey, not celestial.
-They came from the Plane of Faerie. See Elves of Faerûn for more information.
.
I'll read Elves of Faerun all in one once you release it in PDF format.;)
That makes sense, they do have the same origins, still dosen't explain why some are closer to the Seldarine and some fell under the sway of the Seelie Court (if the Seldarine would even allow such a thing).
I personally think the Weave was just a sort of Planar barrier that kept the Plane of Faerie at bay and when it fell, it infiltrated the world in previously unheard of ways.
Besides, I am starting to smell a fey/eldarin conspiracy behind the whole spellplague thing now. The elves never did like the fact that a "human" goddess regulated the laws of magic on the planet, as I glimpsed from Elminster in Myth Drannor...
-Incorrect. The Fey creator race (That is, some kind of Sylvan-Fey creature that seemingly evolved on Abeir-Toril and has no relation to the Plane of Faerie) opened portals from Realmspace to the Plane of Faerie, though which the Green (Wood/"Wild") Elves, and later the Dark Elves, came through.
But in AGHoTR it didn't specifically mention the Plane of Faerie, did it?
There was a fey creator race on Toril?
4E Eladrin are fey, not celestial.
-The 3e Eladrin are/were "celestial"-like.
I'll read Elves of Faerun all in one once you release it in PDF format.;)
-Punk.
That makes sense, they do have the same origins, still dosen't explain why some are closer to the Seldarine and some fell under the sway of the Seelie Court (if the Seldarine would even allow such a thing).
-The same way the Dark Elves/Drow came to worship deities such as Ghaunadaur, Vhaeraun, and eventually Lolth. Just because they were created by the Seldarine didn't mean that the Seldarine dictated every aspect of their lives. They have/had sovereignty over their own affairs.
I personally think the Weave was just a sort of Planar barrier that kept the Plane of Faerie at bay and when it fell, it infiltrated the world in previously unheard of ways.
-The planar barriers between the Plane of Faerie and the Prime Material Plane were always very weak to begin with.
But in AGHoTR it didn't specifically mention the Plane of Faerie, did it?
-All Elves originated on Faerie.
There was a fey creator race on Toril?
-Yes. There were the Fey, the Sarrukh, the Aearee, the Batrachi, and Humans. The exact list differs from scholar to scholar. Some include Dragons, for instance, while others don't.
-The 3e Eladrin are/were "celestial"-like.
I'm aware of that.
I'm aware of that.
-I know that. I was putting out there for whoever you quoted, saying that the 4e "Eladrin" are Fey.
-All Elves originated on Faerie.
-Yes. There were the Fey, the Sarrukh, the Aearee, the Batrachi, and Humans. The exact list differs from scholar to scholar. Some include Dragons, for instance, while others don't.
Ok, that clears some things up. I'm no longer confused.
-And, being as that all Elves originated from Faerie, they should all "regain" this ability. Not just Sun Elves/Moon Elves/Star Elves.
Curious: Didn't the wood elves/wild elves come to Faerûn well before the higher elves?
But who knows....the Player's Guide to Faerûn could very well break with the Core Rulebooks and declare Elves (in the 4E racial sense of that term) can Fey Step like Eladrin.
-Faerie was never "far away", however one measures those things.
I think it was.
It wasn't cannonically (crap, I just used that word again) associated with the Realms the way the Ethereal and Shadow Planes were (in terms of being coterminous). Granted, there were areas in the Realms (northern Halruaa, the Moonshaes) that were tied much more closely to Faerie, but I wouldn't clasify all of Toril as close to that particular Plane.
-Spellplague. As it ran amok in the planes it made the Plane of Faerie come "closer". Again, however that works.
That's the most simple, direct answer.
I'm pretty sure we're going to get a final answer that's a bit more creative, though.
;)
I'm pretty sure we're going to get a final answer that's a bit more creative, though.
;)
Or we could just get the answer as it is and have absolutly no mention of older lore since that is what WoTC dosen't want to resurrect, more confusion. They will most likely create a totally new story that may or ay not be creative but still cancels out old lore.
Ok, that clears some things up. I'm no longer confused.
-Excellent.
Curious: Didn't the wood elves/wild elves come to Faerûn well before the higher elves?
-Not particularly "well before", but that's a relative term. The first immigrants arrived a mere two-plus thousand years. In Elven terms, a couple of generations.
But who knows....the Player's Guide to Faerûn could very well break with the Core Rulebooks and declare Elves (in the 4E racial sense of that term) can Fey Step like Eladrin.
-Given the mantra to make as much material "the same", as to make cross-compatibility easier, I don't really foresee this. But, who knows?
I think it was.
It wasn't cannonically (crap, I just used that word again) associated with the Realms the way the Ethereal and Shadow Planes were (in terms of being coterminous). Granted, there were areas in the Realms (northern Halruaa, the Moonshaes) that were tied much more closely to Faerie, but I wouldn't clasify all of Toril as close to that particular Plane.
-Nope. The Plane itself was always coterminous, was "close" with the Prime Material Plane, with Realmspace in particular. Hence the large availability of Feyroads and Lythari Dens, and pure portals, and so on and so forth. Note that, with the Great Wheel, the Plane of Faerie is not even present in the illustration, but as we know it exists, there's a gaffe there, so you can't go by that picture in PGtF.
That's the most simple, direct answer.
I'm pretty sure we're going to get a final answer that's a bit more creative, though.
;)
-We'll see. I'm sure there will be more information in the new book.
You've seen the artwork for eladrin in the 4E player's guide, yes? And Rich Baker's comment on them pupilless eyes? heh! ;)
Firstly, you're just being mean. Secondly, the moon elf on page 15 of said book clearly still has pupils.
If it really matters to you that much what other people's characters look like, you should look the other way, because it's none of your business.
Firstly, you're just being mean. Secondly, the moon elf on page 15 of said book clearly still has pupils.
If it really matters to you that much what other people's characters look like, you should look the other way, because it's none of your business.
Oh good grief... ever hear of playful teasing?
Oh good grief... ever hear of playful teasing?
Yes. And it always ends with me being uncomfortably tickled. I'm sensitive
That sounds a little too much like Unlawful touching... :yuk:
Anyhow, I somehow 'missed' a good chunk of this thread from earlier.
As for the 'Sylvan' Elves (now just plain 'Elves') - they were supposedly also from Faerie, since the Fey apparently sent them to Toril (or rather, Abeir-Toril); thats from GHotR. However, if you realy wanted to nit-pick, you could always say the Fey grabbed them from somewhere else, and transported them to Toril via the Feywild (which acts in many ways as a transitive plane).
According to BRJ, the Eladrin are 'knock-offs' of Elves, created by the Seldarine in imitation of the Elves (which makes you wonder where the heck the Elves came from).
Enough of that confusion, and onto other confusion... :D
Here is how I figured things for the Elven Netbook, although I'm not sure if LK (or I, or anyone else) ever elaborated on it. Gray Elves are from 1e, and are the 'upper-echelon' of Elfdom (basically, very Fey-like and noble, and not associating with other races). High Elves were the 'common' Elves (making that title rather confusing), and Wood Elves (back then) were the Sylvan Elves (which include, in retrospect, Green, Wild, and Dark varieties).
In FR, Ed had it where the Gold (sun) Elves were the 'elite', and the Silver (moon) were the 'common' (High Elves). That added some confusion, since the physical descriptions were swapped from what they were in core. At that same time, both in core and FR, the various branches of the Sylvan Elves were split-off into their own sub-races (and since Dark Elves only existed in legend, they were always IG a seperate sub-race - the Drow).
Fast Forward a wee-bit, and Elain Cunningham further muddied the waters by using 'Grey Elves' as an insult-of-sorts in regards to Silver (moon) Elves. Since the Gray Elves of core were the equivalent (attribute and culture-wise) of FR's Gold Elves, and FR's 'Grey Elves' were actually core's 'High Elves'.
Notice the spellings - I did that on purpose (and thank god the English language is so muddled). 'Gray Elf' is the Noble Elf in Elven society, an is the 'more Fey' of the two higher castes (for lack of a better word). That would be core - FR has its own terminology. Grey Elf is derogatory slang for a silver Elf, primarilly only used by Gold Elves putting on airs, and ONLY in FR.
Planeswalkers travelling to Toril have occasionally made a faux pas while dealing with Gold Elves, referring to them as Gray Elves... and were lucky to have survived making the unintended insult.
Edit:
I almost forgot to keep this on-topic. The point is, we have now gone 'back-to-basics' with the Elves, and have three sub-divisions. Only the terminology has changed, except in the case of the Drow (who are still Drow, and more Drowier then ever). Now... we can argue all day about the neccessity of the change, but the fact is at least one designer (RB?) has stated to just ignore the nomenclature in FR and call Eldarin Gold & Silver Elves... its that simple.
The one positive thing I think 4e has brought to the table with all of this is that we no longer have to worry about the whole Wood/Sylvan/Green/Wild/Grugach fiasco that came out of 2e. Elves are just Elves now, and much closer to their traditional folklore origins. They are elusive woodland beings who can be both helpful or harmful, depending on the situation, and intent of the tresspassers.
I like that core gave them back their 'even more ancient' heritage - they worshipped a group of gods older then the Seldarine, which in FR were the Yuir Totems (so thats a positive retcon, IMHO).
I like that core gave them back their 'even more ancient' heritage - they worshipped a group of gods older then the Seldarine, which in FR were the Yuir Totems (so thats a positive retcon, IMHO).
-Only the Elves of the Yuir worshiped the Yuir totems. Wood Elves elsewhere are just as clueless concerning those deities as a Human from Thay would be about the Maztican deities.
That infers ALL Elves coming to Toril at that time worshipped other gods, and since THE ONLY earlier canon reference we have to such a thing is the info regarding the Yuir Totems, one can surmise that those were the beings that this is a reference to.
Whilst you may want to look at it that that was the sole region these gods were recognized, I prefer to look at it that that was the last remaining region were those gods were followed. A throw-back, if you will. The Unapproachable East seemed to stay out of the Crown Wars and other major Elven 'stuff', so it makes sense that was one of the few areas where the Seldarine religion (brought-in by the Eladrin) never made any headway.
I guess you never read that short-story about the Seldarine Inquistion?
Remind me to write it sometime. ;)
HOWEVER... according to GHotR, in the -27000 entry, it says that "These primitive Green Elves worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine, which were unknown at this time)".
When did the Seldarine come along?
When did the Seldarine come along?
-The Seldarine first appeared in Realmspace when the survivors of Tintageer emigrated to the Crystal Sphere, in -25,400 DR.
-The Yuir deities were originally Human deities, that were adopted by the Wood Elves when they settled in the Yuirwood.
Which makes little sense, in retrospect.
I do believe the Yuir Totems were already active on Toril (although the humans would have been practically cavemen at that point), perhaps as primal spirits or archfey (retrocatively applying the 4e lore). Read that sentence carefully - it never said that they brought those gods with them. In fact, to me it appears that that worship began after their arrival (the past tense of 'worship' is NOT used).
So yeah... VERY primitive humans worshipped the Yuir Totems (whatever they were/are), and the Elves came-over and began their worship of them when they arrived. If those being were archfey, it makes all the more sense (since we know Fey originated on Toril to begin with). If they were primal spirits, it makes slightly less sense, but it still works (Elves are about nature, and would venerate ANY nature spirits living in areas they settle in).
Which makes little sense, in retrospect.
-Makes plenty of sense. Humans living in the Yuirwood venerated the Yuir deities. At some point, those Humans disappeared from the Yuirwood, and the Yuir deities went into a slumber of sorts, that happens to deities when they have very few or no worshipers (Auppenser, for example). The Wood Elves (and Star Elves at some point, as well) came to the Yuirwood, and "re"discovered the Yuir deities, taking them as their own deities, for whatever reason- they were capricious and went through deities like we go through ballpoint pens perhaps, or maybe the Yuir deities empowered individuals, in exchange for their worship, or a number of scenarios in which the Elves wind up worshiping the Yuir deities.
Read that sentence carefully - it never said that they brought those gods with them. In fact, to me it appears that that worship began after their arrival (the past tense of 'worship' is NOT used).
-The Wood (and Star Elves) did not bring the Yuir deities with them, to the Yuirwood. These deities predated the Elven presence in the Yuirwood. The Elves of the Yuir adopted them as their patrons after they arrived in the forest.
So yeah... VERY primitive humans worshipped the Yuir Totems (whatever they were/are), and the Elves came-over and began their worship of them when they arrived.
-Right. "Archfey", "Primal Spirits", whatever you want to retcon the Yuir deities into- the specifics don't matter, really- that's the order in which they were worshiped. To add, when Yuireshanyaar fragmented and most Wood and Star Elves left for the Sildeyuir, the Yuir deities were forgotten once more, and are only now being "re"discovered once more by the growing Half-Elf population living in the forest, as well as the Humans of Aglarond.
-Right. "Archfey", "Primal Spirits", whatever you want to retcon the Yuir deities into- the specifics don't matter, really- that's the order in which they were worshiped. To add, when Yuireshanyaar fragmented and most Wood and Star Elves left for the Sildeyuir, the Yuir deities were forgotten once more, and are only now being "re"discovered once more by the growing Half-Elf population living in the forest, as well as the Humans of Aglarond.
And as of 1479, the eladrin of the Cult of Voldini are actively working to "re-elevate" the Yuireshanyaar to deific status--that's the main thrust of the Twilight Boughs adventures set in Aglarond.
And as of 1479, the eladrin of the Cult of Voldini are actively working to "re-elevate" the Yuireshanyaar to deific status--that's the main thrust of the Twilight Boughs adventures set in Aglarond.
-Yuireshanyaar is a former Star Elf empire spanning the Yuirwood.
I'm not sure if your following me, BTW. I never said the Yuir Totems didn't come from the Yuir forest, which appears to be your point.
I'm not contradicting the lore, I'm working within the boundaries of what is said in the GhotR. We know very little about the origins of even 'modern' FR deities, so how can we know exactly what and where the Yuir deities were from in -27000?
All we know is that the 'humans' (and I'm using that term losely for what was running around almost thirty thousand years ago) of the Yuir worshipped them, hence the name. That bit of lore is NOT exclusive - they could have been worshipped everywhere in the Realms back then.
The way I see it, the forests of Aglarond were the last place they were worshipped, not the only place. They could have been part of the proto-pantheon for the entire Pangean continent when the Elves arrived.
I'm not sure if I understand you correctly - are you saying there is no way that the Yuir Tortmes could be the Fey deities mentioned in GHotR? If they are Primal Spirits I'd have to agree, on account of the terminology, but if they turn out to be archfey then it absolutely makes sense that they are one and the same.
I'm not sure if I understand you correctly - are you saying there is no way tha the Yuir Tortmes could be the Fey deities mentioned in GHotR?
-Being that the Yuir deities were discovered by the Elves who arrived in the Yuirwood, as opposed to "rediscovered", or "reunited", or some other term that implies two parties that are familiar with each other meeting once more, it certainly seems that way, yes.
-Yuireshanyaar is a former Star Elf empire spanning the Yuirwood.
Sorry about that, I was reading it as a collective noun for the Yuir deities. Or totems. Or gods. Or archfey. ;)
Sorry about that, I was reading it as a collective noun for the Yuir deities. Or totems. Or gods. Or archfey. ;)
-Nope. The only name they have is 'Yuir Totems', 'Yuir Pantheon', or 'Yuir Deities'. Nothing special.
What the blurb in the GHotR says is that after they arrived on Toril, they were worshipping fey Deities. That means they could have been worshipping those same deities before they arrived (making my theory about the Yuir Totems being the same unlikely), or - as I'm reading it - that those were beings they found when they arrived on Abeir-Toril, and considered them to be of like-enough mind to be worth worshipping.
You have to remember that Fey are the MOST multi-planer race out there. Even planes lacking in Elves and Dwarves usually have some sort of Fey (they are incredibly adaptable). A race (if it can even be called that) that is used to going from prime world to prime world - using the Feywild (Faerie) as a transitive plane - would have gotten used to 'switching deities' whenever they arrived on a new world. That could be why the Fey Pantheon differs from world to world - each is an amalgam of some of the multi-spheric Fey deities, and some local ones.
Now, we are talking about Elves, and not Fey here, but its fairly obvious from the GHotR that the two are connected, and that the Fey were responsible for bringing those Sylvan Elves to Toril in the first place.
Anyhow, enough about 'Faerie theory 101'. Basically, all I was saying is that the fact that they were worshipped by the humans of the Yuir forest in -27000 does not preclude them from having been worshipped elsewhere (on Toril), or by all (Faerûnian) humans at that time.
I picture a proto-group of humans stretching across the central part of the continent, primitive but still very much human, taking the place of our RW 'Celtic' peoples (who also varied greatly from region to region). That group - which I have tentatively named the 'Cortae' - became many other groups over the millenia, including the Dathites (Chondathan/Jhaamdathan), Talfir, and early (pre-Calishite) Tethyrian peoples. The proliferance of 'Standing Stones' thoughout Faerûn gives evidence to such a people having existed.
If we use the Celts as a model for such a group, the religion was fairly close from region to region, but the names of various deities and 'Primal Spirits' (using 4e terminology once again) would have varied, Adjoining regions (and tribes) would use similar-sounding names, but as you got further away, the more different the names would become.
So, my point is that the Yuir deities were in fact deities of the early Yuir tribes of humans, but also could have actually been part of a much larger spread proto-pantheon of the early human peoples of Faerûn. I never said they came from somewhere else, although that is possible, at least for a few of them (I'd prefer at least some of them to be indigenous - I really don't care for the whole 'interloper' thing).
As I stated earlier, the fact that the past-tense form of 'worship' is NOT used in that GHotR entry, leads me to believe that it means that the worship of those 'Fey Deities' only began after the Elven arrival, which could mean it is a reference to the Yuir Totems (who could have been more powerful and wider-spread nearly 30,000 years ago).
What the blurb in the GHotR says is that after they arrived on Toril, they were worshipping fey Deities. That means they could have been worshipping those same deities before they arrived (making my theory about the Yuir Totems being the same unlikely), or - as I'm reading it - that those were beings they found when they arrived on Abeir-Toril, and considered them to be of like-enough mind to be worth worshipping.
-The sentence is written, "...These primitive Green Elves worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine, which were unknown at this time)..." The books says that they are worshiping these deities before they arrived, and continued to do so after they arrived. When the Wood Elves first came to Abeir-Toril, they crossed over via the gates that the leShay created, and brought with them, to Realmspace, their own culture, which included the worship of Faerie deities, such as the Seelie and Unseelie Courts, and perhaps any number of Archfey entities.
Anyhow, enough about 'Faerie theory 101'. Basically, all I was saying is that the fact that they were worshipped by the humans of the Yuir forest in -27000 does not preclude them from having been worshipped elsewhere (on Toril), or by all (Faerûnian) humans at that time.
So, my point is that the Yuir deities were in fact deities of the early Yuir tribes of humans, but also could have actually been part of a much larger spread proto-pantheon of the early human peoples of Faerûn. I never said they came from somewhere else, although that is possible, at least for a few of them (I'd prefer at least some of them to be indigenous - I really don't care for the whole 'interloper' thing).
-Right, okay, that's what I wanted to make sure you were saying.
-The Yuir deities came to be worshiped by, (seemingly) at first, Humans, and then Elves and Half-Elves, but, for all we know, they could be Draconic entities, having been "imprisoned" in the Yuirwood by whomever, being that Dragons were the major race at the time. Or, perhaps, predating Dragons, Aeree, Sarrukh, leShay, or Batrachi. Or, some other race all together- Lammasu, Gnolls, and Giants, we know those races existed before at least -27,000 DR, the earliest possible time Wood Elves could have stumbled upon the Yuir deities.
As I stated earlier, the fact that the past-tense form of 'worship' is NOT used in that GHotR entry, leads me to believe that it means that the worship of those 'Fey Deities' only began after the Elven arrival, which could mean it is a reference to the Yuir Totems (who could have been more powerful and wider-spread nearly 30,000 years ago).
-That entire entry is written in the past progressive tense; nothing is written in that entry in the pure past tense. That aside, like I said in my first paragraph, when the Wood Elves arrived, they brought with them their own culture, which included their own Fey deities, who they venerated before they came, and after they came.
-Also, keep in mind two things:
(A) The entry has nothing to do with the Yuir deities. It's about Wood Elves arriving on Abeir-Toril via gates that he leShay opened, as a way to make everyday life more annoying for the Dragons that ruled the world.
(B) We don't know when the Wood Elves came to the Yuirwood. The earliest mentions of Elves in the Yuirwood happen in -9,800 DR, when Wood Elves and Star Elves seeking to flee the destruction from the Crown Wars immigrated east. The earliest possible, in theory, that Elves could have come to inhabit Eastern Faerûn would be -27,000 DR, when they first arrived.
There is no past tense used in that excerpt, so anything you are assuming taking place prior to -27000 DR is just you putting that slant on things.
The way it reads is that as of -27000, those Elves worship the 'Faerie Gods'.
That is Exactly what it says, with absolutely no spin on it.
As you can assume that they worshipped those beings before the excerpt they are mentioned in, I can also assume that they only just started worshipping them as of the date of that excerpt.
Had their been an 'ed' on the end of the word 'worship', I would have to agree with you. However, as it reads, it could mean either. All it tells us is that the Elves worshipped Faerie gods in -27000 DR.
They could have worshipped Cthulhu in -26999, and then worshipped a head of lettuce in 270001.
Edit: Having now read it, the only thing I would like to add is that I'm glad we can at least agree on the second point. The worship of the Yuir deities may have been completely different before the current 'modern age' called them the 'Yuir Totems'. If anything, that name alone makes me think that is just a modern Aglarondan term for them, because it's almost condescending (not calling them gods, and lessening them with the 'Totem' sobriquet.)
there is no mention of elven migrations to Unapproachable East for a long time, who knows who lived there and why no elven Crown War realm didn't emerge there
I remember there were people called Lyricaith or something in Thesk, maybe that was their pantheon
And that one sentence just made something 'click' in my head...
Anyhow, Primal Spirits is a good catch-all for them, and would fit the primitive (mesolithic?) humans, along with the other nature-respecting peoples, like Elves and Centaurs.
As for the Mesolithic thing - I'm picturing cultures akin to those found in 10,000 BC.
There is no past tense used in that excerpt, so anything you are assuming taking place prior to -27000 DR is just you putting that slant on things.
The way it reads is that as of -27000, those Elves worship the 'Faerie Gods'.
That is Exactly what it says, with absolutely no spin on it.
-Word for word (again) from AGHotR: "Continuing their work to undermine Dragon rule, the Fey open new gates allowing the first Elves to immigrate to Toril. These primitive Green Elves worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine, which were unknown at this time)..."
-The Green Elves worship the "Faerie gods". They cannot worship the "Faerie gods" if the "Faerie gods" are unknown to them.
As you can assume that they worshipped those beings before the excerpt they are mentioned in, I can also assume that they only just started worshipping them as of the date of that excerpt.
Had their been an 'ed' on the end of the word 'worship', I would have to agree with you. However, as it reads, it could mean either. All it tells us is that the Elves worshipped Faerie gods in -27000 DR.
They could have worshipped Cthulhu in -26999, and then worshipped a head of lettuce in 270001.
-The entire entry is written in the relative past progressive tense- nothing has "ed" attached to it. If things were written in the absolute past tense, it'd read like this:
"[As they] Continu[ed] their work to undermine Dragon rule, the Fey opened new gates allowing the first Elves to immigrate to Toril. These primitive Green Elves worshiped the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine, which were unknown at this time)..."
-That aside, there are no mentions of said Elves worshiping anyone or anything previously. If that were the case, being as that the authors took the time out to include that the "Faerie gods" were the ones said Elves venerated, why would they not take equal time out to state that before said Elves worshiped the "Faerie gods", they worshiped [something else]? Ultimatley, one cannot bring something with them if they do not have it in the first place. Though there is merit to what you say, there is no evidence to support the claim. There'd need to be some kind of evidence, some kind of 'hint' that the "original" Elves worshiped someone, something, before the "Faerie gods", and no text suggests or alludes to that. Without that crucial suggestion or allusion, it's akin to saying that all Sembians secretly prefer Calashites as business partners- it's a claim that no text really says anything one way or another about, that can't be proven true or false because of that.
Edit: Having now read it, the only thing I would like to add is that I'm glad we can at least agree on the second point. The worship of the Yuir deities may have been completely different before the current 'modern age' called them the 'Yuir Totems'. If anything, that name alone makes me think that is just a modern Aglarondan term for them, because it's almost condescending (not calling them gods, and lessening them with the 'Totem' sobriquet.)
-They are called the Yuir totems because, in the Sunglade, ten totems- one for each Yuir deity, five identified, five unidentified- exist. I don't think there's any ethnocentrism or anything like that on the part of those who call them the Yuir Totems today, or those who originally "invented" the term.
-Also, keep in mind, when something refers to the Yuir Totems, it may be referencing the totems (as in the physical stones, in the Sunglade), as opposed to the deities those totems represent.
You've decided what is says... you are not taking it litearally. It says that those Elves Worship (present tense) the Faerie gods, as of -27,000 DR.
That is all it says, and ANYTHING else is you reading into it. Like I said, you could add an entry in at -26,999 that say they worship Asmodeus, and another at -27,001 that says they worship Gruumsh, and the -27000 entry would still be accurate and NOT have to modified one bit.
And even if they did worship 'Faerie gods' before coming to Toril, nothing says they couldn't still be the Yuir Totems (uless you think absolutely no lore has been retconned about the Elves in 4e from 3e and earlier). If Gold, Silver, and Star Elves have all become Eladrin and are no longer Elves, then NO previous canon really applies to Elves any more.
This is obviously some sort of weird 'alternate FR reality', and the Yuir Totems may never have been worshipped by humans at all. We really can't assume any of the 2e lore applies anymore, what with all the 'kewl, new stuff' the designers added.
Heck... I remember when Devas were celestials.... ;)
And even if they did worship 'Faerie gods' before coming to Toril, nothing says they couldn't still be the Yuir Totems (uless you think absolutely no lore has been retconned about the Elves in 4e from 3e and earlier). If Gold, Silver, and Star Elves have all become Eladrin and are no longer Elves, then NO previous canon really applies to Elves any more.
-It's a possibility, but like I said a few posts ago, there's no specific anything that link the Yuir Totems as the deities that are being mentioned. Nothing really links the Yuir Totems to the Plane of Faerie, either; that is, going by the information he have right now, the Yuir Totems wouldn't be considered 'Faerie deities'. They'd be Human deities, and then Elven deities, and then Human/Elven deities.
Perhaps domesticated animals serve to deny the primal spirit its share of wizened elder animal souls. For example a dogs soul is lost to the shadowfell, therby denying it a merge with its (regional) ancestor wolf spirit. This proces could eventually form a new primal spirit of dogs though.
I think the Yuir Totems make an interesting take on the story of the decline of primal spirits on Toril. Its evident the totems have been faltering for quite some time now in Fearun, with 5 of the original totems being forgotten and the remaining being fostered by the Seldarine.
Perhaps domesticated animals serve to deny the primal spirit its share of wizened elder animal souls. For example a dogs soul is lost to the shadowfell, therby denying it a merge with its (regional) ancestor wolf spirit. This proces could eventually form a new primal spirit of dogs though.
-They're not 'primal spirits'. They're deities.
Unlike former edition-changes, it cannot be assumed that things not mentioned have remained the same, because so much lore surorunding those very things have been greatly altered.
You can assume... for now... that the old lore still applies, but there is nothing to say that it won't be re-written the first time the older lore presents itself to be inconvenient to the current story-line.
Which was my whole point about the Yuir Totems - we don't really know if whoever wrote that entry in the GHotR even knew about that lore that humans worshipped them first.
In 4e, all bets are off.
As of previous lore... which is no longer considered canon.
Unlike former edition-changes, it cannot be assumed that things not mentioned have remained the same, because so much lore surorunding those very things have been greatly altered.
-As I said earlier, nothing has said that anything has changed. Things stay the same until changed. And, nothing has changed. Until a book, article, whatever comes out and says, "Blah, blah, blah, the Yuir deities are not actually deities, but giant boogers that Elminster animated", they're still normal old ancient, sleepy deities.
You can assume... for now... that the old lore still applies, but there is nothing to say that it won't be re-written the first time the older lore presents itself to be inconvenient to the current story-line.
-Which is the point: It's canon until it's changed, which is hasn't been yet. That things get changed and retconed, it happens. It has to happen first, though, before we can say that it has.
Which was my whole point about the Yuir Totems - we don't really know if whoever wrote that entry in the GHotR even knew about that lore that humans worshipped them first.
-Given that, for whatever reason, people seem to forget that they were Human deities first, before the Elves arrived in the Yuirwood, it's a possibility. As I said before, though, the passage in AGHotR that we were debating had absolutely nothing to do with the Yuir Totems at all. The Yuir Totems are never once mentioned in AGHotR, actually, print or electronic PDF, according to my looking at the relevant dates in my Elven-specific timeline.
NOTHING stays the same, and 4e is like a great, bi ol' slap in the face with that.
And here's the kicker - I actualy agree with you, and would prefer they worshipped the Fey pantheon before coming to Toril, and that is most likely what that entry means (as you may remember, that fits-in perfectly with my own proto-cosmological musings).
I'm merely demonstarting that nothing can be taken for granted in this crazy, mixed-up 4e world. :P
Heck, you're Karsus, and you only found out recently Shar tricked you. ;)
Unlike certain novel series and the Star Wars franchise, 'canonicity' in the Realms has gone from 'set in stone' to 'completely malleable at any time'. Like Battlestar Galactica, and most recently in my beloved Star Trek franchise, continuity has gone the way of comic books - it got 'rebooted' to better-serve a new group of writers and a new audience (with different tastes).
It happens to everything in time - I assume that SW will eventually go that way after Lucas' death, when greedy relatives decide to re-invent the wheel (as Rodenberry's wife has done to Star Trek after his death). Once the creator of a franchise is no longer in-control, continuity gets changed with every changing of the gaurd.
-Take the part about Shar duping Karsus, for example. Until it was mentioned, that was something that didn't take place. After it was mentioned, then we got the "full" story. Likewise, until something says that the Yuir Totems are not deities, but 'Primal Spirits', 'Elemental Entities', 'Archfey', or whatever else, they're still deities. Nothing has been mentioned, so that's not how things are (yet, possibly).
In the past, when we got retcons, they were usually very minor things, and usually due to someone's lack of in-depth research into a particular thing. With edition changes, we usually got explanations, and the continuity glitches were kept to a minimum.
No such... restraint... was applied this time out. Sister worlds? High Elves became Eladrin? Tieflings became a seperate race? Dragonborn got re-written and became inter-planer invaders? Mortal Aasimar became Devas, and Devas became Angelic beings? Demons are really corrupted Elementals? The Bloodwar wasn't really a war... it was series of skirmishes occasionally fought between certain factions of fiends?
Thats NOT a retcon... thats a Re-Boot! And theres a big difference. Thats why I say that the old rule of "what hasn't been mentioned hasn't been changed" doesn't really apply any more. Take the gods for example - we had assumed if they weren't mentioned their status probably hadn't changed in 4e; now we find-out that they probably DON'T exist at all (perhaps never did), and they weren't mentioned just because they weren't worth the bother.
Those old asumptions simply don't work in a complete re-boot.
Centaur Tribes inhabited the regions of the Unapproachable East before the 'modern' age (pre-Mulan expansion period), most notably on the Thayan Plateau.
And that one sentence just made something 'click' in my head...
Anyhow, Primal Spirits is a good catch-all for them, and would fit the primitive (mesolithic?) humans, along with the other nature-respecting peoples, like Elves and Centaurs.
As for the Mesolithic thing - I'm picturing cultures akin to those found in 10,000 BC.
I doubt the centaurs are capable, alone, maybe some fey civilization of which Rashemen is a remnant
yea, 10,000 BC appears appropriate for fantasy mesolithic (I like the alien in the end), like the the Mammoth Lords of Golarion, my archaeology professors wouldn't be happy with that picture
Apocalypto is another excellent reference-movie. Although it tries to stick to facts, the bottom line is that there really aren't too many to begin with. Still, I got that 'Maztica flavor' from the whole thing, and was even looking for the Dark Elf on Cordell's ship at the end. :D
-I just can't accept that reasoning, I am sorry.
And I understand and accept that.
For me, this is like what DC comics did after the two 'Crisis' series, or what Marvel did in Ultras - its a complete re-boot of the realty. Before the late 80's, comics and game-settings followed the same rule - you tried to keep the continuity, and would try to work-out any glitches.
After Crisis came out, it became fashionable to 're-boot' the continuity for a new audience, about every decade or so. New writers would come onboard and make sweeping changes, usually based on their own 'pet desires', and not on anything the fans wanted (Red Hulk?! :uh-huh
Now it seems game-designers have hoped onto that bandwagon, and we get a 'clean slate' with each edition. Just as in comics, you cannot apply the canon from previous editions across-the-board. In many cases, it works out the same (Batman is always Batman, even if his Robin gets a facelift), but in just as many cases things change.
You cannot expect lore to remain static after a continuity re-boot, and that is exactly what we got. This was WAY MORE then an edition change this time out.
Besides, using Major Glenn Talbot that way is just so... comic-bookish. :P
The character is stupid really, it does things for no reason,Remember that Simpsom episode where Homwer was making the voice of a Really "kewl" cartoon dog? Red Hulk is that cartoon dog.
And as to 4E = "crisis", I ve seen it like that for a LONG while now....
-And, I don't know anything about Red Hulk, either, but I don't like him. Having recently got back into comics, I feel like I've been pushed out, again. Too much intertwined stuff happens now. Back ten years ago, when I was heavily into comics, complete crossovers were fairly new, and limited, with Onslaught being really the only one during my four year interest (more or less: 1995-1999). Now, it's like every year, there is a massive super crossover where everything is involved. Just over the past three years or so, there's Civil War, World War Hulk, and the Secret Invasion...
As to Moon Elves and Gold Elves being Eladrin, well once upon a time, much like the rest of the Elves, but they have long since gone native. So in my FR they are going to remain subraces of the Elves still undecided if I will give them slightly different stats. Eladrin are in my mind the precursor race, and now that the Feywild/Faerie is more accessible they exist in the FR (Sarifal and other places may exist). The Eladrin fit in much better if they are somewhat alien, rather than having a bunch of Elves suddenly lose their pupils, and gain the ability to teleport. I have the Eladrin not worshiping much of anything beyond nature, perhaps serving the Gods, and often becoming forces of nature later in life themselves. The recommendations given in the FRPG are really a shoe horn solution, and necessarily adjust a mountain of lore to fit the Eladrin in the game setting.
I can see how certain elven houses (Durothil, Moonflower) on Evermeet with direct heritage to the first eladrin settlers have regained their connection to the Feywilds and supesequently gained some more arcane features.
From the Time of Troubles onward, I have always taken canon as something written by a resident of the realms. This means it is often tainted by the personal prejudices of the writer/historian/sage, and can quite often be inaccurate due to his pet theory or research being wrong, or based on prior research that was wrong. It is easier to reconcile assorted conflicts in the past, with the retcon material when you accept an inherent degree of wrongness with the published material.
-Not be be argumentative, but I bring it up because it's kinda funny: From almost the Time of Troubles on (okay, 1,372 DR isn't exactly 1,358 DR, but close enough), officially, it's just the opposite- products (2e) were generally written from the perspectives of residents, and thus, "tainted by personal prejudices", and so on, while products (3e) generally were written from the perspective of the universal narrator, who cannot do that stuff, due to a lack of personality to actually do said activities.
-Not be be argumentative, but I bring it up because it's kinda funny: From almost the Time of Troubles on (okay, 1,372 DR isn't exactly 1,358 DR, but close enough), officially, it's just the opposite- products (2e) were generally written from the perspectives of residents, and thus, "tainted by personal prejudices", and so on, while products (3e) generally were written from the perspective of the universal narrator, who cannot do that stuff, due to a lack of personality to actually do said activities.
There is a reason the Grey Box was an ideal supplement for me, along with the FR series. They never gave you too much info, and most of it was presented as something that might not be entirely accurate. While I think the 3rd edition FRCS was probably one of the best FR products from a production standpoint, and in distilling two editions worth of product down to one book, the encyclopedic tone leaves much to be desired as it did have a cementing effect on canon. The 4th edition FRCG seems to try to strike a balance between the two methods mostly by omission, which does not work entirely well either. If I had my choice it would be the old style which was present in the original material, and in the post ToT material (yes I despise ToT and The Days of our Deities Soap Opera which followed). If it was not written as well as it was I would have dropped the FR a very long time ago.