I am still fairly new to 4.0 and D&D so forgive my noobish ignorance. but somethng that has been bothering me. the eladrin according to some of the books ihave read are born in the fey wild or another celestial realm. and are pretty much said to be more powerfull than elfs in terms of magical power. i know in 3.0 or 3.5 they were considered a type of celestial. and even in the 4.0 phb it says they are more fey like than other elves. so basically my thing is how did they go from being some wher ebetween elves and angels to moon elfs basicaly? i still dont see where it say sthey are the moon elves of 3.5. they are suppossed to be 2 different races but it seems now that everyone says they just replace dthe moon elves. so basically i am all confused. i dig the eladrin because they seem to be a homage to tolkiens elves and are more of the sort of elf i like. and i dont like how wotc took all the elves and basically made them into wood elfs in 4.0. ok if anyone can help clear this up a bit id really be gratfeull.
On the world that FR takes place on, what are mechanically represented as eladrin and elves, are all simply called 'elves'. Wood and Wild elves use the 'elf' statblock, Moon and Sun elves use the 'eladrin' statistics, but in-game, they're collectively elves.
-In the Forgotten Realms, there exist numerous Elven subraces. They are not limited to, but include, Moon Elves, Sun Elves, Star Elves, Wood Elves, Drow Elves, etc. In the Forgotten Realms, they are referred to as Moon Elves, Sun Elves, Star Elves, Wood Elves, Drow Elves, etc. In the D&D rules, they've been known as those specific things until 4e came out. In 4e terminology the PC race that's in the books that are 'Eladrin' would include Moon Elves, Sun Elves, and Star Elves- the more magically-oriented, less-woodsy Elven subraces. In 4e terminolgy, the PC race that's in the books that are 'Elves' would include Wood Elves- the more-woodsy, less-magically inclined Elven subraces.
-In the world itself, nothing has changed. Moon Elves are still Moon Elves, Sun Elves still Sun Elves, Star Elves still Star Elves, and so on. On character sheets, though, you'd put down 'Eladrin' instead of those. Or, if you had a Wood Elf, you'd put down 'Elf' instead. Make sense?
-The 4e rules changed what 'Eladrin' are. Prior to 4e, they were the aforementioned chaotic good Elf-like extraplanar creatures. Now, utilizing the 4e rules, they are magically-oriented Elves (Sun, Moon and Star Elves). I'm not sure as to what the chaotic good Elf-like extraplanar creatures are called in 4e (Eladrin Nobles, maybe?), but 3e Eladrin =/= 4e Eladrin. Using the same term for two seperate things has cause considerable confusion among people, yes.
-The 4e rules changed what 'Eladrin' are. Prior to 4e, they were the aforementioned chaotic good Elf-like extraplanar creatures. Now, utilizing the 4e rules, they are magically-oriented Elves (Sun, Moon and Star Elves). I'm not sure as to what the chaotic good Elf-like extraplanar creatures are called in 4e (Eladrin Nobles, maybe?), but 3e Eladrin =/= 4e Eladrin. Using the same term for two seperate things has cause considerable confusion among people, yes.
Also in 4E, I believe the Eladrin now have glowy eyes and have 'feystep' abilities, where other Elves don't, because they're now 'closer' to the Feywild.
Also in 4E, I believe the Eladrin now have glowy eyes and have 'feystep' abilities, where other Elves don't, because they're now 'closer' to the Feywild.
-The eyes, I'm not sure about. I don't have the 4e rulebooks, and I don't know if illustrations actually match what the text says or not (I'm looking at you, Warforged Dragon!). The teleporting, yeah. The explanation, I think is lame and insufficient, but it is what it is, but they've been given that power also (though, in the limited post 1,385 DR books/short stories I've read, I don't remember reading any instances of any Moon/Sun Elves utilizing this ability. Undoubtedly, they have it, with WotC making everything intercompatable and all of that, but, hey, you never know...).
Hello and well met, AesinTyr. Welcome to Fourth Edition D&D.
so basically my thing is how did they go from being some wher ebetween elves and angels to moon elfs basicaly?
There was no transition/story based explanation for the change in terminology for what "Eladrin" means between 3.0/3.5 and 4E.
Mechanically and story-wise, when you see "Eladrin" in a 3.5 book and in a 4E book, you're dealing with two different things.
The reason the game's designers repurposed the term "Eladrin" in Fourth Edition D&D was to give a name to a particular Elven race that was truly native to the Feywild, and to reintroduce the concept of fey that are amoral, i.e., not thinking in terms of just Good and Evil.
Don't worry about the hodgepodge of elven sub-races (something like 11 of them) that are leftovers from 3.0/3.5. Another reason for reducing the number of elven races to two (Eladrin and Elves) was to make things simpler.
The FRPG talks about Eladrin as mainly moon and sun elves, but there's no reason an eladrin PC couldn't be a native to the feywild. And I'm pretty sure that the more powerful type of eladrin are called Noble Eladrin, specifically.
-And Star.
thanks for the info guys and about the eyes eladrin according to the phb have eyes that are a soild color and no pupils.
The PHB does indeed say so. However, Rich Baker has suggested in the past that although everything in the Realms can be used in core, not everything that core dictates relates to the Realms. Specifically in this case, the eyes of the Moon Elves (and others) may well have remained the same as before, i.e. with pupils and non-solid.
[p.s. I have just moved house and my net access is sporadic to say the least, so apologies to anyone if I don't replay to a response quickly.]
the FRPG certainly doesn't say that they have solid colored eyes. They talk about the different eye colors of moon and sun elves.
-"Solid colored eyes", as in an eye that is pupiless/irisless. Such eyes can have variation in color from person to person, of course.
-But, anyway, the FRPG doesn't say a lot of things. It doesn't mention that Dwarves have five fingers, for example. A lot of stuff is just to...'straight-forward', for a lack of better words, to repeat.
the FRPG certainly doesn't say that they have solid colored eyes. They talk about the different eye colors of moon and sun elves.
-"Solid colored eyes", as in an eye that is pupiless/irisless. Such eyes can have variation in color from person to person, of course.
-But, anyway, the FRPG doesn't say a lot of things. It doesn't mention that Dwarves have five fingers, for example. A lot of stuff is just to...'straight-forward', for a lack of better words, to repeat.
core eladrin specifically have solid white eyes, IIRC.
sure, but if something could be in conflict between the setting book and the core book, what the setting book does and does not say is rather important.
They are Asamirs renamed because someone up top doesn't like angel people, only devil people.
Obviously you missed the memo on Deva's.
They are Asamirs renamed because someone up top doesn't like angel people, only devil people.
Obviously you missed the memo on Deva's.
Obviously you missed the fact they included Tieflings but not Aasmirs in the main 4E manual.
They are Asamirs renamed because someone up top doesn't like angel people, only devil people.
Obviously you missed the memo on Deva's.
Obviously you missed the fact they included Tieflings but not Aasmirs in the main 4E manual.
You mean how in the second players handbook they included Deva's, essentially half-angels and that everything in these books is core material making your argument completely irrelevant? The Deva is essentially the poster child PC angel (with even a heavy disposition towards only good alignments that even extends to their monster manual entries).
They are as relevant and "in 4E" as any other race (better supported than Tieflings in fact).
Yes, because they wanted to make the Aasimar something other than simply 'the anti-Tiefling', as well as to fix the ridiculous name (as one author put it, 'I cannot type it without thinking of buttocks').
Funny but I thought of the Tiefling as the Anti-Aasimar and eldarin as elves.
Yes, because they wanted to make the Aasimar something other than simply 'the anti-Tiefling', as well as to fix the ridiculous name (as one author put it, 'I cannot type it without thinking of buttocks').
Yes, because they wanted to make the Aasimar something other than simply 'the anti-Tiefling', as well as to fix the ridiculous name (as one author put it, 'I cannot type it without thinking of buttocks').
It's way better than Deva, a name I can't type without thinking of the blue tentacled crappy singer from the Fifth Element.
It's way better than Deva, a name I can't type without thinking of the blue tentacled crappy singer from the Fifth Element.
What! crappy singer? I thought she was awesome! This thread is hoplessly off topic. I thought it was the Eldarin vs Elves thread?
Elves win by the way!
core eladrin specifically have solid white eyes, IIRC.
Not white---blue, green, or violet with a pearlescent sheen. ( just had to go look that up and check).
They are Asamirs renamed because someone up top doesn't like angel people, only devil people.
Actually they are Eladrin re-stated, more than anything else. Eladrin existed as fey celestials, and still do, essentially, in the form of Noble Fey Eladrin. The PC race Eladrin represents "high elves" who are closer to their fey heritage(Noble, or Fey Eladrin) than Elves or Drow. All three races are, in essence, Elven. In a given setting that already has the standard breakdown of elves, they are:
Eladrin: The more magical elves
Elves: Wood elf types
Drow: either drow, or whatever they need to be, IMO.
I would go so far as to use, in Eberron, Eladrin and Elves interchangably in a given culture of elves, depending on what stats are individually more appropriate. In FR there is a preset breakdown between the two that makes perfect sense.
core eladrin specifically have solid white eyes, IIRC.
Not white---blue, green, or violet with a pearlescent sheen. ( just had to go look that up and check).
Cool, thanks for the correction.
OK, so, theoretically the sun and moon elves(and star) of FR could have monochrome eyeballs.
Here's how I would explain it, if they do. They Feywild is closer to the world than it was when called Faerie. As such, those elves who are particularly close to thier Fey heritage, over the last hundred years, have begun to gain natural Fey magic(fey step) and their appearance has begun to alter slightly. This seems like a slow process, but it is, in fact, happening at an alarming rate, even given the natural elven affinity for magical adaptation. Most sun, moon and star elves still look about the same as they did a hundred years ago, but nearly all elves of those types born after the spellplague have monochrome eyes, and other Eladrin features. They are still distinguishable from other types of "eladrin" and recognizable as a member of their elven culture.
Or, a group could conclude that all elves look the same as they did a hundred years ago, and use the rest of the above to explain the stat block change.
Actually they are Eladrin re-stated, more than anything else. Eladrin existed as fey celestials, and still do, essentially, in the form of Noble Fey Eladrin.
Nah, the concepts are different. 4th edition "noble eladrin" are high elves who have gained power associated with magical forces such as seasons from the power of the Feywild. Although they often bear the same names of previous edition eladrins (firre, coure, ghaele, etc.) they don't resemble those beings in appearance or thematically. For example, 3e coure were tiny winged beings similar to pixies in appearance, while 4e coure look more or less like high elves. Thematically, eladrins in previous editions were celestials, spiritual personifications of chaotic good of the outsider type, the good equivalents of demons not related to or connected to elves at all, while eladrins in 4th edition (whether they're "noble" or not) are unaligned fey. Not remotely the same idea, or the same creature, and when an elf becomes a super-elf (that is, becomes a noble eladrin), that doesn't make it any more of a celestial than any other elf is.
If it were precisely true that previous-edition canon remained uncontradicted in 4th edition, the beings called eladrins in previous editions would remain as an entirely unrelated species somewhere in the Astral Sea, with no connections to elves or eladrins.
However, it's more likely (for reasons of convenience if nothing else) that we're to assume that previous-edition references to "eladrins" in Forgotten Realms canon (for example, in Demihuman Deities and the Player's Guide to Faerun) refer to 4th edition eladrin instead - that is, high elves. There's no reason to assume they refer only to noble eladrin - the idea of societies made up entirely of "nobles" is pretty nonsensical. Someone has to take out the garbage, so unless they have slaves or servants of other races (as those genie societies such as the marid who consider themselves all to be nobles do), some of them are probably commoners. So, for example, when the Player's Guide says there's an eladrin court in the Gates of the Moon, in 4th edition we probably shouldn't read that as "a race of celestials representing chaotic good" or "noble eladrins" - I think we should just read that as a kingdom of eladrins, of both noble and common status. They might be given the celestial template, if 4th edition has such things. When Demihuman Deities says that eladrins of a particular type serve a particular elven deity, on the other hand, they probably do mean noble eladrin, if only because servants of a deity are likely to be pretty unique and powerful.
When I say "should," of course, I'm not actually suggesting that this is what you should do in your home game. I just mean this is probably what the designers intend.
The confusion of the "solid-colored eyes" is this: eladrin native to the Feywild have solid-colored eyes, while gold elves, silver elves, and so on from Faerun do not. The solid-colored eye group are a separate subspecies and shouldn't be confused with the eladrin races of Faerun, although some of them have migrated from the Feywild to Toril since the Spellplague.
To sum up:
Elves = Wood elves or wild elves
Eladrin = High elves, which is to say: Gold elves, silver elves, star elves, and the solid-eyed eladrin of the Feywild
Noble eladrin = High elves who have special nature-related powers from the Feywild.
Previous-edition eladrin = high elves who happen to live in Arvandor, the Gates of the Moon, or similar regions of the Astral Sea.
Actually they are Eladrin re-stated, more than anything else. Eladrin existed as fey celestials, and still do, essentially, in the form of Noble Fey Eladrin.
Nah, the concepts are different. 4th edition "noble eladrin" are high elves who have gained power associated with magical forces such as seasons from the power of the Feywild. Although they often bear the same names of previous edition eladrins (firre, coure, ghaele, etc.) they don't resemble those beings in appearance or thematically. For example, 3e coure were tiny winged beings similar to pixies in appearance, while 4e coure look more or less like high elves. Thematically, eladrins in previous editions were celestials, spiritual personifications of chaotic good of the outsider type, the good equivalents of demons not related to or connected to elves at all, while eladrins in 4th edition (whether they're "noble" or not) are unaligned fey. Not remotely the same idea, or the same creature, and when an elf becomes a super-elf (that is, becomes a noble eladrin), that doesn't make it any more of a celestial than any other elf is.
If it were precisely true that previous-edition canon remained uncontradicted in 4th edition, the beings called eladrins in previous editions would remain as an entirely unrelated species somewhere in the Astral Sea, with no connections to elves or eladrins.
However, it's more likely (for reasons of convenience if nothing else) that we're to assume that previous-edition references to "eladrins" in Forgotten Realms canon (for example, in Demihuman Deities and the Player's Guide to Faerun) refer to 4th edition eladrin instead - that is, high elves. There's no reason to assume they refer only to noble eladrin - the idea of societies made up entirely of "nobles" is pretty nonsensical. Someone has to take out the garbage, so unless they have slaves or servants of other races (as those genie societies such as the marid who consider themselves all to be nobles do), some of them are probably commoners. So, for example, when the Player's Guide says there's an eladrin court in the Gates of the Moon, in 4th edition we probably shouldn't read that as "a race of celestials representing chaotic good" or "noble eladrins" - I think we should just read that as a kingdom of eladrins, of both noble and common status. They might be given the celestial template, if 4th edition has such things. When Demihuman Deities says that eladrins of a particular type serve a particular elven deity, on the other hand, they probably do mean noble eladrin, if only because servants of a deity are likely to be pretty unique and powerful.
When I say "should," of course, I'm not actually suggesting that this is what you should do in your home game. I just mean this is probably what the designers intend.
The confusion of the "solid-colored eyes" is this: eladrin native to the Feywild have solid-colored eyes, while gold elves, silver elves, and so on from Faerun do not. The solid-colored eye group are a separate subspecies and shouldn't be confused with the eladrin races of Faerun, although some of them have migrated from the Feywild to Toril since the Spellplague.
To sum up:
Elves = Wood elves or wild elves
Eladrin = High elves, which is to say: Gold elves, silver elves, star elves, and the solid-eyed eladrin of the Feywild
Noble eladrin = High elves who have special nature-related powers from the Feywild.
Previous-edition eladrin = high elves who happen to live in Arvandor, the Gates of the Moon, or similar regions of the Astral Sea.
I'm not seeing as much of a contradiction as you, I guess. Having read the manual of the planes more than most of the other books, I've spent a good amount of time reading about Fey Eladrin. That is, Eladrin from the Feywild. Specifically of interest are what appears to be a subspecies of Eladrin who are even more inherently magical than other Eladrin, and live for a much longer time, if not potentially forever. This may or may not have been achieved in the same way in previous editions, but the same people are filling the same role, for the most part. Where certain aspects of the cosmology no longer apply, things are obviously different.
By Noble Eladrin I don't mean the same thing as Eladrin nobles. Noble Eladrin are Eladrin who seem to be extensions of the Feywild, almost as if they were at some point similar in nature to other ousiders(which is probably what I meant when I said celestial), and PC Eladrin are related to them in the same way that Devas are related to Angels, to oversimplify.
And I'm not sure that the Eladrin Courts in the Feywild do have commoners.
I mean, it's entirely possible that no one needs to take out the trash, because the powerful and subtle magics of the Court take care of such menial concerns.
Specifically of interest are what appears to be a subspecies of Eladrin who are even more inherently magical than other Eladrin, and live for a much longer time, if not potentially forever.
A race of more magical Tel'Quessir isn't a good match for 3e eladrin, any more than a race of more magical minotaurs would be a satisfactory substitute for bulezau demons if they were unaligned and mostly lived in the Feywild (or any more than a race of unaligned fey gnolls would be a good match for hound archons). That is to say, even if they look a little bit alike, they have a completely different role in the game.
Eladrins, as originally conceived, were celestial manifestations of the chaotic good alignment, created to be the good equivalent of demons or the chaotic equivalent of archons (or the opposite of devils). If they're neither good (there's no chaotic good alignment in 4e, of course) nor celestial, they're a different monster. I don't think it's hyperbolic to compare the change in what an eladrin is to the change in what an archon is; in both cases the name now applies to a creature of different alignment, description, special abilities, and creature type than it formerly did. Unlike the case with archons, eladrin are still similar enough in general appearance, if nothing else, that you can read references to eladrins in previous editions as 4e eladrin, if you squint and don't think about it too hard.
As for your reference to a subspecies of possibly immortal eladrin, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Are you talking about the line on page 36 of the Manual of the Planes to "noble eladrin so old and powerful that they have transcended the bounds of mortality?" If so, that doesn't refer to a subspecies, it refers to a handful of unique individuals such as Tiandra (it's under the "archfey" section, and all archfey are unique individuals, equivalent to gods, primordials, primal spirits, darklords, demon lords, and similar beings).
Some 2nd edition eladrins actually have a shorter lifespan than elves do (depending on their subrace), if you believe the 2nd edition sourcebook Warriors of Heaven. This was stupid for a variety of reasons, but nothing ever said that outsiders were all immortal. I'd prefer it if they were, but going just by what's official, making 4e eladrin live longer than elves do might make them less like previous-edition eladrins, not more (I'm inconsistent with the plural because more than one eladrin were "eladrins" in previous editions, while the word is both singular and plural in 4e for some reason).
By Noble Eladrin I don't mean the same thing as Eladrin nobles. Noble Eladrin are Eladrin who seem to be extensions of the Feywild, almost as if they were at some point similar in nature to other ousiders(which is probably what I meant when I said celestial), and PC Eladrin are related to them in the same way that Devas are related to Angels, to oversimplify.
I don't want to belabor this point, since it's not essential to my argument and you can certainly play it that way if you want, but that's not my impression. What I gathered from the books is that any group of eladrin, whether encountered in the mortal world, the Feywild, or the Astral Sea, will be similar to the player character eladrin, and their leaders may be noble eladrin. None of the eladrin in the Mithrendain article from Dragon #366 are nobles; they're all built from the standard PC race, from the sentinels and guards to the ruling council, and it's hard to get more Feywild than that. The description of the "coure of mischief and strife" in the Monster Manual II shows that the concept of a "noble" in eladrin society is similar to that among humans in that it's a political station although it's also a new state of being. Unlike human nobles, eladrin rarely inherit their nobility - which means that almost all eladrin will be born as standard Player's Handbook eladrin, and only become coures or bralani or ghaeles or whatever later in life if they manage to acheive sufficient communion with the Feywild. This is different from 2nd edition eladrins, who gave birth to others of their own kind.
And I'm not sure that the Eladrin Courts in the Feywild do have commoners.
I mean, it's entirely possible that no one needs to take out the trash, because the powerful and subtle magics of the Court take care of such menial concerns.
I take your point about the trash; it's indeed possible that they have magic trash-dissolving powers or magic items instead of janitors. My concern was more that, in general, nobles need someone to boss around, or they're not really nobles. Every eladrin in Mithrendain is apparently a commoner, though, as far as their statistics go.
To be fair, I've always thought that 2E/3E Eladrin were really lousy at being what they were supposed to be. A... Chaotic Good race has a rigid social structure you can't advance in with rulers that you're going to serve forever if you're not on top of the heap? And strict rules regarding its conduct that interfere heavily with actually, you know, doing good? Whaaat?
I agree with this; the outsider race that exemplified chaotic good shouldn't have looked so much like elves/fey, either, as it left every other chaotic good race mostly without exemplars to look up to. I would have rather seen a more flexible race, as varied as demons or devils, with a large, shifting number of paragons that represent many different possible aspects and takes on the alignment. My own solution was to add independent eladrin nobles and make the eladrins as un-elfy as possible, but it was definitely a problem. They're kind of a bad design on Richard Baker's part, one of several less successful feats of imagination he added to the cosmology when he designed the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II. Still, they were part of the game, and I think I made good use out of them.
In addition, I really like that D&D finally has a systematic way to do human-sized fey. You can see a lot of different half-hearted takes on the idea in 3e, from verdant princes to leShay to lunar ravagers, but the only way to do them generically was the idea presented in the 3e Manual of the Planes - assign celestial or infernal templates to elves, which felt like a clumsy hack. There were some better Seelie and Unseelie templates presented in Dragon Magazine, but nothing really to apply them to other than nymphs, satyrs, and elves. Eladrins were from the beginning inspired by faerie legends, but cast as they were as celestials they were left unable to properly fill that role, and the fey hierarchy was left to struggle without a major part of its traditional associations. Reading the Fey Feature archive I was left thinking, "this is interesting, but exactly what kinds of creatures are all these fey noble houses they're talking about populated by? Not sprites and nymphs, surely. The leShay are too epic and the verdant princes are too evil, and elves are humanoids, not fey."
I'm just saying that now that they're unaligned fey and not celestials, they're a very different concept than they used to be. The ancient personifications of benign Chaos that destroyed the obyrith race in the Abyss can't be turned into tricksy, amoral sidhe without losing their basic identity. It'd be like turning devils into a race of unaligned fey and trying to claim they're really still the same basic thing; they wouldn't be, they'd be some other sort of gargoyle-looking critters. So the problem is that by changing the nature of the monster to this degree, it dramatically changes the meaning of previous-edition lore that concerned them. 4e eladrin aren't knights of goodness who wander the planes hunting evil and protecting mortals while in disguise, nor are they meant to be, and 3e eladrin weren't high elven nobles with powers connected to the seasons and the natural world. This doesn't ruin the game or the Forgotten Realms setting, but I think it needs to be acknowledged for what it is. You can't just cross out previous-edition references to eladrins and scribble "noble eladrin" in the margins without changing what's being said.
To be fair, I've always thought that 2E/3E Eladrin were really lousy at being what they were supposed to be. A... Chaotic Good race has a rigid social structure you can't advance in with rulers that you're going to serve forever if you're not on top of the heap? And strict rules regarding its conduct that interfere heavily with actually, you know, doing good? Whaaat?
In fairness, though, you have to put that in context. When the eladrins were created in the AD&D game, there was a rule in place that tanar'ri and baatezu couldn't enter the Prime Material Plane unless summoned. The rule that said eladrins could only enter the Prime Material in disguise, and the similar rule that rilmani could only enter the Prime if they piggybacked on another summoning, was just supposed to be their equivalent of that. It's not any stranger for eladrins to have a rule that prevented them from doing good than it was for the tanar'ri to have a rule (not being able to enter the Prime unsummoned) that prevented them from doing evil; in both cases, I think the rule was one enforced by the multiverse itself (or by Ao, conceivably), rather than one the races themselves had come up with.
As for the "rigid social structure," that was inexcusably dumb, and I ranted about it at length at the time, but there was nothing in the original monster description to that effect - it was something that Chris Perkins came up with in the excreable Warriors of Heaven, which really ought to have been pulped before it hit shelves.
And neither problem (nor their vexing mortality, nor, really, much about them being similar to elves) was mentioned in 3rd edition.
...As for the "rigid social structure," that was inexcusably dumb, and I ranted about it at length at the time, but there was nothing in the original monster description to that effect - it was something that Chris Perkins came up with in the excreable Warriors of Heaven, which really ought to have been pulped before it hit shelves.
What? Chris Perkins introduced something dumb to the Realms? Well, imagine that.
I guess he needed to be stopped back then, huh?;)
Specifically of interest are what appears to be a subspecies of Eladrin who are even more inherently magical than other Eladrin, and live for a much longer time, if not potentially forever.
A race of more magical Tel'Quessir isn't a good match for 3e eladrin, any more than a race of more magical minotaurs would be a satisfactory substitute for bulezau demons if they were unaligned and mostly lived in the Feywild (or any more than a race of unaligned fey gnolls would be a good match for hound archons). That is to say, even if they look a little bit alike, they have a completely different role in the game.
Eladrins, as originally conceived, were celestial manifestations of the chaotic good alignment, created to be the good equivalent of demons or the chaotic equivalent of archons (or the opposite of devils). If they're neither good (there's no chaotic good alignment in 4e, of course) nor celestial, they're a different monster. I don't think it's hyperbolic to compare the change in what an eladrin is to the change in what an archon is; in both cases the name now applies to a creature of different alignment, description, special abilities, and creature type than it formerly did. Unlike the case with archons, eladrin are still similar enough in general appearance, if nothing else, that you can read references to eladrins in previous editions as 4e eladrin, if you squint and don't think about it too hard.
As for your reference to a subspecies of possibly immortal eladrin, I'm not sure what you're referring to. Are you talking about the line on page 36 of the Manual of the Planes to "noble eladrin so old and powerful that they have transcended the bounds of mortality?" If so, that doesn't refer to a subspecies, it refers to a handful of unique individuals such as Tiandra (it's under the "archfey" section, and all archfey are unique individuals, equivalent to gods, primordials, primal spirits, darklords, demon lords, and similar beings).
Some 2nd edition eladrins actually have a shorter lifespan than elves do (depending on their subrace), if you believe the 2nd edition sourcebook Warriors of Heaven. This was stupid for a variety of reasons, but nothing ever said that outsiders were all immortal. I'd prefer it if they were, but going just by what's official, making 4e eladrin live longer than elves do might make them less like previous-edition eladrins, not more (I'm inconsistent with the plural because more than one eladrin were "eladrins" in previous editions, while the word is both singular and plural in 4e for some reason).By Noble Eladrin I don't mean the same thing as Eladrin nobles. Noble Eladrin are Eladrin who seem to be extensions of the Feywild, almost as if they were at some point similar in nature to other ousiders(which is probably what I meant when I said celestial), and PC Eladrin are related to them in the same way that Devas are related to Angels, to oversimplify.
I don't want to belabor this point, since it's not essential to my argument and you can certainly play it that way if you want, but that's not my impression. What I gathered from the books is that any group of eladrin, whether encountered in the mortal world, the Feywild, or the Astral Sea, will be similar to the player character eladrin, and their leaders may be noble eladrin. None of the eladrin in the Mithrendain article from Dragon #366 are nobles; they're all built from the standard PC race, from the sentinels and guards to the ruling council, and it's hard to get more Feywild than that. The description of the "coure of mischief and strife" in the Monster Manual II shows that the concept of a "noble" in eladrin society is similar to that among humans in that it's a political station although it's also a new state of being. Unlike human nobles, eladrin rarely inherit their nobility - which means that almost all eladrin will be born as standard Player's Handbook eladrin, and only become coures or bralani or ghaeles or whatever later in life if they manage to acheive sufficient communion with the Feywild. This is different from 2nd edition eladrins, who gave birth to others of their own kind.And I'm not sure that the Eladrin Courts in the Feywild do have commoners.
I mean, it's entirely possible that no one needs to take out the trash, because the powerful and subtle magics of the Court take care of such menial concerns.
I take your point about the trash; it's indeed possible that they have magic trash-dissolving powers or magic items instead of janitors. My concern was more that, in general, nobles need someone to boss around, or they're not really nobles. Every eladrin in Mithrendain is apparently a commoner, though, as far as their statistics go.
Upon a quick reread of the manual of the planes, it appears that you're pretty much right. I still feel that 4e Eladrin are most assuredly not 4e substitutes for aasimar(what I first responded to), but what I seem to have been thinking of before were the Fey of old. I had forgotten that Eladrin pre 4e had nothing to do with Faerie.
I would suggest that rather than every eladrin in Mithrendain being a commoner(I know, you were making a point) that every eladrin is whatever they're described as thematically, and that the stats are there exclusively for the purpose of game mechanics. Seems to be about how 4e works, in general.
I think, thematically, the population of Mithrendain is portrayed as fairly standard PH eladrin, but there's room to squeeze some nobles in there if you really want them.
Oh, definitely, yeah. Devas are the new aasimar, and 4e eladrins replace most of the human-sized, elf-like fey creatures of previous editions (called sidhe in Tall Tales of the Wee Folk and the Celts Campaign Sourcebook), as well as sun, moon, and star elves. Something like a verdant prince might be a kind of noble eladrin (and I'd probably retain the 3e lore that says they father more verdant princes by mating with lesser female fey, but often eladrin rather than only dryads and nymphs). Joystealers, in 4e, would be fey bound to the Shadowfell due to khen-zai ("shadowgaunt") interference rather than the Ethereal Plane; they're something different from eladrin. LeShay do seem to be something much older, and I like Brian R. James' take that they're the fey progenitor race.
I think, thematically, the population of Mithrendain is portrayed as fairly standard PH eladrin, but there's room to squeeze some nobles in there if you really want them.
Nice. I like the run of your thoughts here. I haven't looked closely at Mithrendain, as yet, except to note that my assassin is at some point going to want a Mithrendain steel parrying dagger. :P I'll have to check it out.
I've been really interested in the Feywild lately, partly because it's my favorite plane in general, but mostly because I'm working on an shadar-kai assassin who was born in Ramparts of Night who accidentally got trapped in the Feywild while travelling to the Raurin desert, and promptly went mad from emotional/sensation overload.
After some stuff in the Feywild that I haven't figure out yet, he ended up in High Imaskar, and eventually truly learned to be an "assassin" there. Before the Feywild and madness, he was basically a bard, on the path toward becoming a Doomspeaker(shadar-kai paragon path), but remembers little of his previous trade.
Actually his bardic talent was why he was travelling when he got trapped in the Feywild. He was heading toward the Raurin desert to hang with some elves. Partly to expand his knowledge of bardic lore and magic, and partly because the harsh desert would pose a challenge, and thus opportunity for accomplishment. He also enjoyed the company of the elves of Al Qahara. Probably travelling with a merchant caravan, or somesuch. That's a long trip.
Still working out the details.
Stigger would agree with me. Bad things happen when you hang out with Elves.
Eldarin is a term used to refer to Tolkein's elven languages.
Eladrin are a race of celestials or a race of fey humanoids.
Eladrin == Elves so nobody wins. Kind of like the Crown Wars.
mystra's bloody bones
Eladrin == Elves so nobody wins. Kind of like the Crown Wars.
Hey man we Won the Crown Wars! We accomplished what we set out to do, we drove those Drow ********* underground!
So what about sea elves? would they be Eladrin or Elf? or something else?
The confusion of the "solid-colored eyes" is this: eladrin native to the Feywild have solid-colored eyes, while gold elves, silver elves, and so on from Faerun do not.
In Wrath of the Blue Lady appears an eladrin whose eyes are descibed as a solid hue. She is not identified as a sun, moon, or star elf though, as she comes from the feywild.
In Shadowbane, the eladin Illira (aka Fox) has pupilless eyes. She is decribed as a high elf (not sure if that means sun or moon elf?).
Gomez
Myself, I am inclined to think sea elves would be *elves,* rather than *eladrin*. It makes more mechanical and flavor sense to me: they seem more inclined to nature (aquatic nature), speed, accuracy, and stealth (stealth-swimming)? Plus that 7 square movement is awesome in the water. So if you're planning to have aquatic elves in your game, I would make them standard elves and change the normal movement to swim speed and let them breathe underwater or above water (with a time limit; like if they aren't allowed to go underwater during an extended rest, they lose one healing surge).
The confusion of the "solid-colored eyes" is this: eladrin native to the Feywild have solid-colored eyes, while gold elves, silver elves, and so on from Faerun do not.
In Shadowbane, the eladin Illira (aka Fox) has pupilless eyes. She is decribed as a high elf (not sure if that means sun or moon elf?).
In Downshadow, Lady Ilira is--and always has been--a moon elf, and she is native to the Realms (i.e., was born there long before the Spellplague), rather than to the Feywild.
As to the implied contradiction this might present, I can assure you (without going into an actual detail and spoiling anything) that her pupiless eyes do not necessarily come from her racial background . . . any more than that, I leave up to the reader at the present time.
Cheers
more Light and Shadowbane please
I'm glad you like them. I'm going to have to give you the "we'll have to wait and see" response, however!
Cheers
Sorry to resurrect an older thread, but I was just floating through and noticed this thread of converse.
Myself, I am inclined to think sea elves would be *elves,* rather than *eladrin*.
Thank you for that Erik, I was wondering about that. You make some good points there. I wasnt sure if Sea Elves would be Eladrin or Elves, or if maybe theyd be a third sub race, more tied in with the elemental planes than the feywild, but they are still a branch of Elvenkind so it would makes sense for them to be fey, not Primordial. I like the way you got it set up, Elves with swim speed, and water breathing, and they lose a healing surge if they cant get back in the water, yep that works, Im gonna go with that.
If you feel really ambitious, check out Races of Faerun from 3.0 and Stormwrack from 3.5 and design a few aquatic elf specific feats.
I don't know when WotC is going to get around to underwater combat. I'm quite looking forward to it, actually.
Cheers
Yes, they just put out the Underdark book, so an Undersea one would make sense. Could focus on aquatic combat, aquatic races, deities, what ever. Theres alot of potential there, hopefully theyll get around to doing that very soon.
Cheers
So they do it in 2011, the year of *setting*. :P
Wonder how much you could get for a decanter of endless water on Athas. :P Or how much you could get people to pay you to Plane Shift them to somewhere less crappy and dead.
Kind of off-topic, but an Undersea book would seem to contradict the Year of Dark Sun, wouldn't it?
Cheers
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I'm sorry I couldnt resist
or if you prefer
www.youtube.com/watch?v=FobvhVgZOCI
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