According to Ms. Cunningham's blog, she's just signed a new book deal. I know I'd love to see the now-cancelled Forgotten Realms novel, but still, nice to know she's got something new in the works. Hopefully, she and Wizards will work together again, but if not, at least she's still writing.
Hey,
According to Ms. Cunningham's blog, she's just signed a new book deal. I know I'd love to see the now-cancelled Forgotten Realms novel, but still, nice to know she's got something new in the works. Hopefully, she and Wizards will work together again, but if not, at least she's still writing.
-It looks like she will be writing some Pathfinder Fiction!!! GO PAIZO!!!
Got a link to the blog?
18D:D
when are the releasing pathfinder fiction?
-2009 per James Jacobs on the paizo forums. :D :D :D
18D
I'm beginning to dig Galorian
-I have been digging Golarian. RA Salvatore is going to write the Forward of the Hardcover Book. Ed Greenwood has his own region to write about!:D Elaine is helping on the Drow and Elves for the next adventure path, and going to write fiction too. Sign me up...oh I already am signed up!
18D
-I have been digging Golarian. RA Salvatore is going to write the Forward of the Hardcover Book. Ed Greenwood has his own region to write about!:D Elaine is helping on the Drow and Elves for the next adventure path, and going to write fiction too. Sign me up...oh I already am signed up!
18D
I look forward to the sourcebooks. I'll definately get the hardcover campaign book in August. probably be the only campaign book I get in August
I'm starting to dip my toe into it, that's for sure.For those of you that have been with E.C. from the beginning, has she actually gotten better in her writing? The first book I picked up from her was Daughter of the Drow. I wasn't happy in the least. I managed to get through the follow up novel, then never touched anything from her again (besides her co-authoring of City of Splendors with El'--Ed).
Its been so long since I picked it up her solo work that I no longer remember if it was her writing I disliked, or that I thought she was trying to copycat R.A. so much that I got disgusted. Either way, I'd like to know how she rates on your scale of authors.
I've seen her around on the boards and the blogs. She seems to be very personal and attentive to what's going on. Sort of makes me feel guilty that I avoid her writing and make exceptions for others.
So, can anybody sway me with praise? Is she ranked in your top three? Top five? The bottom of your bookshelf, labeled, "When I get downtime"?
Its been so long since I picked it up her solo work that I no longer remember if it was her writing I disliked, or that I thought she was trying to copycat R.A. so much that I got disgusted. Either way, I'd like to know how she rates on your scale of authors.
When I read the Liriel books, I thought Cunningham's style was much different from what RAS did with Drizzt. Always remember, too, that WotC authors must write what they are told to write, at least to an extent. In other words, just because EC wrote about drow doesn't mean she was trying to one-up RAS, it likely meant she was asked by WotC to write drow novels.
Personally, I think she's a great storyteller. Since you say it's been such a long time since you read anything by her, why not try Elfshadow (though that's an old novel, it is well-liked)? Still, if you don't care for her writing, that's how it is. It's not my style to convince someone to like something they say they don't like.
You need to read Song & Sword, Evermeet: Island of the Elves, Counselors & Kings, and yes, Starlight & Shadow too. Liriel is the perfect example of a good aligned drow that still behaves like a drow (unlike Drizzt who doesn't even remotely behaves like one). And Wizard drow chicks are always sexy.
Pathfinder is the true heir of Dungeons & Dragons.
-It wouldn't suprize me if Paizo eventually buys D&D form WotC if 4e bombs. They got to keep the bean counters at Hasbro happy you know.
It looks like they(Paizo) are setting themselves up to be in a very stong position with Pathfinder. Thats why I have been beating the Paizo drums around here. Markus is now running around like a newly converted zealot!:D All I need to do is buy the first adventure path and keep my paizo subs up to date and well I will have anything and everything Pathfinder! I even bought the mini of The Whispering Tyrant Tar-Baphon to use as my mini in any and all dnd games.18D
LETS GO PAIZO!:DLiriel is the perfect example of a good aligned drow that still behaves like a drow (unlike Drizzt who doesn't even remotely behaves like one).
Also, she wasn't even good at first. She starts off pretty much neutral, and not overly outraged at her culture (unlike Drizzt, who for some reason was always good).
When I read the Liriel books, I thought Cunningham's style was much different from what RAS did with Drizzt. Always remember, too, that WotC authors must write what they are told to write, at least to an extent. In other words, just because EC wrote about drow doesn't mean she was trying to one-up RAS, it likely meant she was asked by WotC to write drow novels.
Personally, I think she's a great storyteller. Since you say it's been such a long time since you read anything by her, why not try Elfshadow (though that's an old novel, it is well-liked)? Still, if you don't care for her writing, that's how it is. It's not my style to convince someone to like something they say they don't like.
I was not a big Daughter of the Drow fan myself but the Song & Sword books are great, as is Elves of Evermeet
Also, she wasn't even good at first. She starts off pretty much neutral, and not overly outraged at her culture (unlike Drizzt, who for some reason was always good).
That's why I like her so much. If I lived in Faerûn I would totally date her.
I was not a big Daughter of the Drow fan myself but the Song & Sword books are great, as is Elves of Evermeet
I loved the S&S books. Evermeet, not so much, although not because I thought it was "poorly written" or anything.
I wish I could keep up with Pathfinder publications, for now it seems very confusing, so I'l wait until they release the CS and the final rules. But I'm placing all my coins on Pathfinder.
-I cant wait until August either, cause once I get the hardcover Golarion book in my hands, you guys/gals wont see me for at least a week! Thats why I have been lurking on the Paizo forums the last week, hiding and watching.:D Thats one of the reasons that I haven't been around here.
18D
Lets go Paizo:D I loved the S&S books. Evermeet, not so much, although not because I thought it was "poorly written" or anything.
I liked it more than I did the Liriel books anyway. But the S&S books are her best and some of the best realms books around
-I cant wait until August either, cause once I get the hardcover Golarion book in my hands, you guys/gals wont see me for at least a week!
I thought that book wasn't coming out until 2009?
I thought that book wasn't coming out until 2009?
-That would be the Final Pathfinder Rule Set. The Golarian Hardcover(Which will detail the entire Pathfinder Setting), and Beta Release of The Pathfinder Role Playing Game will be out in August of this year, probably in time for GenCon. Watch Paizo steal WotC's thunder this year at GenCon!:D
18D:lightbulb :evillaugh
-That would be the Final Pathfinder Rule Set. The Golarian Hardcover(Which will detail the entire Pathfinder Setting), and Beta Release of The Pathfinder Role Playing Game will be out in August of this year, probably in time for GenCon. Watch Paizo steal WotC's thunder this year at GenCon!:D
18D:lightbulb :evillaugh
Thanks for clarifying. One downside to the Paizo business is how "Pathfinder" refers to several different types of products.
Thanks for clarifying. One downside to the Paizo business is how "Pathfinder" refers to several different types of products.
do you mean the Alpha and Beta?
do you mean the Alpha and Beta?
I mean "Pathfinder" is the name of the setting, the name of the ruleset, the name of the magazine, etc.
I mean "Pathfinder" is the name of the setting, the name of the ruleset, the name of the magazine, etc.
oh. That is confusing
do you mean the Alpha and Beta?
-The Alpha was the 3 part download of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rules. Which is FREE BTW! The Beta will be any revisions to the system, and it will cost $25. In 2009 Will be the Final release, it will incorporate any and all changes that will happen to the rule set in the next what 15 months. Basically Pazio is having a big OPEN PLAYTEST OF THEIR VERSION OF THE RULES.
-Now with the Pathfinder products. Its the Pathfinder subscription, which run in six episode adventure paths like Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne(The path that is currently running), The Second Darkness(which will start in September) and so on and so forth. Pathfinder Chronicals detail the setting some, provide info on the various orgs in the setting, various places, the guide to Korvosa is awesome. It provides setting background. Pathfinder moduals are various adventures set in Golarian, kinda like Dungeon Crawl Classics by www.goodmangames.com Some are low level, some are mid-range. Really dont need them unless you are like me and must have every one!!!:D
18D:D
-The Alpha was the 3 part download of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rules. Which is FREE BTW! The Beta will be any revisions to the system, and it will cost $25. In 2009 Will be the Final release, it will incorporate any and all changes that will happen to the rule set in the next what 15 months. Basically Pazio is having a big OPEN PLAYTEST OF THEIR VERSION OF THE RULES.
-Now with the Pathfinder products. Its the Pathfinder subscription, which run in six episode adventure paths like Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne(The path that is currently running), The Second Darkness(which will start in September) and so on and so forth. Pathfinder Chronicals detail the setting some, provide info on the various orgs in the setting, various places, the guide to Korvosa is awesome. It provides setting background. Pathfinder moduals are various adventures set in Golarian, kinda like Dungeon Crawl Classics by www.goodmangames.com Some are low level, some are mid-range. Really dont need them unless you are like me and must have every one!!!:D
18D:D
I am most interested in the fiction and sourcebooks as opposed to the adventures
I am most interested in the fiction and sourcebooks as opposed to the adventures
-This should help some
-Got to go to work now!:D
18D
When I read the Liriel books, I thought Cunningham's style was much different from what RAS did with Drizzt. Always remember, too, that WotC authors must write what they are told to write, at least to an extent. In other words, just because EC wrote about drow doesn't mean she was trying to one-up RAS, it likely meant she was asked by WotC to write drow novels.
Duly noted.
Personally, I think she's a great storyteller.
I dislike storytellers. I prefer authors that can tell a story.
But, yes, I see the point about being under contract and having to write what you write.
Elaine is the best FR author, period.
You need to read Song & Sword, Evermeet: Island of the Elves, Counselors & Kings, and yes, Starlight & Shadow too. Liriel is the perfect example of a good aligned drow that still behaves like a drow (unlike Drizzt who doesn't even remotely behaves like one). And Wizard drow chicks are always sexy.
Very strong statement. One that I could argue with immediately—but won’t. I do like the Drizzt/Liriel comparison.
But doesn’t this mean I have to go back and read the Daughter of the Drow and the rest of that trilogy?
Also, she wasn't even good at first. She starts off pretty much neutral, and not overly outraged at her culture (unlike Drizzt, who for some reason was always good).
Which annoyed me when I read it. And I think this was probably a lack of world perspective at the time and moral standards—I simply couldn’t like the character. That may actually have been my problem all along.
Holy Bejebuz in a tortilla and chewed on by a chiwawa! You may have just gave me the answer!!
I was not a big Daughter of the Drow fan myself but the Song & Sword books are great, as is Elves of Evermeet
Duly noted again. But, as a lawyer, I can’t take your word as fact and must listen to the jury.
-This should help some
-Got to go to work now!:D
18D
thanks
-But her website does says this
Show
5/9/08 The folks at Paizo Publishing have asked me to write some serial fiction for their Pathfinder campaign setting. The story will be novella length--about 25,000 words--broken down into six short-story-sized episodes. More info coming soon.
-Well damn I stand corrected Elaine will be working on the 4TH Adventure Path! Sorry for any mis-information folks.
-But her website does says thisShow5/9/08 The folks at Paizo Publishing have asked me to write some serial fiction for their Pathfinder campaign setting. The story will be novella length--about 25,000 words--broken down into six short-story-sized episodes. More info coming soon.
I dislike storytellers. I prefer authors that can tell a story.
What's the difference? I think EC is an author who can tell a story. *shrug*
Doesn't this mean I have to go back and read the Daughter of the Drow and the rest of that trilogy?
Nope. Songs and Swords is a seperate series and not related to the Starlight and Shadows trilogy. You don't need to read these series in any particular order.
Which annoyed me when I read it. And I think this was probably a lack of world perspective at the time and moral standards—I simply couldn’t like the character. That may actually have been my problem all along.
If you didn't like Liriel when you read about her, nothing I say is going to change that, and I wouldn't try to change that.
I would suggest you try some other books by EC though, if you still want to try them out.
What's the difference? I think EC is an author who can tell a story. *shrug*
A storyteller is someone that can tell a decent story and have you follow along somewhat entertained, at least in minimal sense. An author is someone that makes you feel like you're in the story. Not only are you entertained in some manner, but you feel a connection to it.
Troy Denning and Lisa Smedman, IMO, are storytellers. They explain a great deal of whats going on and move on through, but little in the way of details or depth.
Paul Kemp and Richard Baker are authors. They put great detail and depth into whats going on and, therefore, progress the story.
My opinion, of course. But its right!
Nope. Songs and Swords is a seperate series and not related to the Starlight and Shadows trilogy. You don't need to read these series in any particular order.
My concern here is character development. If I picked up a novel today with Drizzt as the main character, I wouldn't like him nearly as much as I would without knowing he had that "hunter" side to him and why he was the way he currently is.
If you didn't like Liriel when you read about her, nothing I say is going to change that, and I wouldn't try to change that.
Then why did I say you may have just given me the answer to why I didn't like her? ;)
I would suggest you try some other books by EC though, if you still want to try them out.
In reference to the above, I believe I will. Thanks....
Other authors are also under contract - RAS so far just to do the worldbook's intro. I really doubt he studied up on the world just to write an intro though, but thats just conjecture on my part.
Ed is NOT contracted to do fiction... yet... he IS designing an entire region of Golarion. I have no idea what Shemmy is doing, or Jeff Grubb, or Monte Cook - but ALL of them are contributing to the Pathfinder experience in some way (Steven Schend is helping with Playtesting, but thus far not on the payroll).
As far as novels go, Erik Mona has mentioned it as part of his long-range plans, but nothing is set in stone as of this moment. Paizo has it on the back-burner until they complete some of their current projects (the Golarion CS, for one thing).
What that means is that Golarion novels are most certainly forthcoming, as long as pathfinder is a success... and looks like it will be.
But things do change, as we all well know...
Now shouldn't you be lurking around here? :P18D:D
Now shouldn't you be lurking around here? :P
I think its evident that such a thing is not in his blood.
A storyteller is someone that can tell a decent story and have you follow along somewhat entertained, at least in minimal sense. An author is someone that makes you feel like you're in the story. Not only are you entertained in some manner, but you feel a connection to it.
Funny distinction.
Paul Kemp and Richard Baker are authors. They put great detail and depth into whats going on and, therefore, progress the story.
Unfortunately, I think Kemp and Baker offer varying degrees of mediocrity. Baker more so--I've read better fanfiction. Well, technically he and every FR novelist that's not Ed Greenwood do write published fanfiction (with the quality implied by the term, and about that much professionalism), but that's neither here nor there.
EC is, IMO, a better author than Salvatore: better attention to language, little resorting to retarded slapstick that's only funny if you are five (Salvatore, as far as I recall, does it every time dwarves show up--and they do show up an awful lot), characters that are considerably less caricatural and don't spend pages and pages angsting like emotionally stunted gothkids. Baker's characters are cardboard cut-outs and flat stereotypes with Mary Sue/Gary Stu pasted on; EC's some semblance of dimension. Baker's and Kemp's proses both make me cringe and fill me with vague disgust (and embarrassment, especially for the people who profess undying admiration for them), and Cunningham's at least doesn't do that (not most of the time, anyway. But her early works are better than, say, the pile of irredeemable, infantile drivel that is The Cleric Quintet).
(Yes, I'm aware attempting to sway you while denigrating authors you probably enjoy is not the best tactic. But I'm not trying to particularly: I have no vested interest in boosting sales of FR authors, and my fannish days dedicated to any of them are long gone. Leave my comments or take them as you will.)
-Spoken like a true convert! :D Its all about Pathfinder.
18D:D
he's like the worst lurker ever
A storyteller is someone that can tell a decent story and have you follow along somewhat entertained, at least in minimal sense. An author is someone that makes you feel like you're in the story. Not only are you entertained in some manner, but you feel a connection to it.
Troy Denning and Lisa Smedman, IMO, are storytellers. They explain a great deal of whats going on and move on through, but little in the way of details or depth.
Paul Kemp and Richard Baker are authors. They put great detail and depth into whats going on and, therefore, progress the story.
My opinion, of course. But its right!
I don't see a huge difference (if any) between "author" and "storyteller", and did not attempt to make any such distinction in my previous post.
My concern here is character development. If I picked up a novel today with Drizzt as the main character, I wouldn't like him nearly as much as I would without knowing he had that "hunter" side to him and why he was the way he currently is.
Well, I certainly can't predict whether or not you'll like a character. All I can do is suggest you try reading about them.
Then why did I say you may have just given me the answer to why I didn't like her? ;)
I don't understand...?
In reference to the above, I believe I will. Thanks....
You're welcome.
Funny distinction.
Not really.
Unfortunately, I think Kemp and Baker offer varying degrees of mediocrity. Baker more so--I've read better fanfiction. Well, technically he and every FR novelist that's not Ed Greenwood do write published fanfiction (with the quality implied by the term, and about that much professionalism), but that's neither here nor there.
Fanfiction does not, an author, make. They simply write it. Yet, I suppose you can view the term in different aspects. In mine, its simply anything applicable to the setting.
EC is, IMO, a better author than Salvatore: better attention to language, little resorting to retarded slapstick that's only funny if you are five (Salvatore, as far as I recall, does it every time dwarves show up--and they do show up an awful lot), characters that are considerably less caricatural and don't spend pages and pages angsting like emotionally stunted gothkids.
Which is why my questions arose.
Remember, I didn't come out saying, "I'll never read Elaine--she sux." I'm looking for this very input to encourage me to put down feelings I created a foundation for over ten years ago.
Baker's characters are cardboard cut-outs and flat stereotypes with Mary Sue/Gary Stu pasted on; EC's some semblance of dimension. Baker's and Kemp's proses both make me cringe and fill me with vague disgust (and embarrassment, especially for the people who profess undying admiration for them), and Cunningham's at least doesn't do that (not most of the time, anyway. But her early works are better than, say, the pile of irredeemable, infantile drivel that is The Cleric Quintet).
We've already got into your feelings about Kemp. I would imagine your view on Baker would be similar, as its relative with mine on Kemp.
I also imagine you may have a problem with human nature and emotion, in general, which is why we find ourselves disagreeing on this. ;)
And it may be the reason why you preferred her earlier works, when I didn't in the least.
(Yes, I'm aware attempting to sway you while denigrating authors you probably enjoy is not the best tactic. But I'm not trying to particularly: I have no vested interest in boosting sales of FR authors, and my fannish days dedicated to any of them are long gone. Leave my comments or take them as you will.)
Simply appreciate the input. Thank you...kind, sir? ;)
I don't see a huge difference (if any) between "author" and "storyteller", and did not attempt to make any such distinction in my previous post.
No, you questioned the difference--if not by accident.
I do see a difference, which is why I tried to explain. Some people see things as distinctly two different beings. I, unfortunately, happen to be one of them.
Well, I certainly can't predict whether or not you'll like a character. All I can do is suggest you try reading about them.
And so I encourage your encouragement. ;)
I don't understand...?
Read your originating post.
The rest should come together....
Fanfiction does not, an author, make. They simply write it. Yet, I suppose you can view the term in different aspects. In mine, its simply anything applicable to the setting.
Either you didn't quite read my post, or you're reading at cross purpose. Most people consider fanfiction as something that's most of it undiluted garbage. Sturgeon's Law, only more so. FR fiction is basically fanfic published.
I also imagine you may have a problem with human nature and emotion, in general, which is why we find ourselves disagreeing on this. ;)
I imagine I have no more problem with human nature and emotion than you do. I do, however, happen to think some authors write terrible drivel, and watching people fanboy them is a bit like witnessing someone lap up days-old vomit while chanting loud adulations to its taste and texture.
I mean, okay, maybe you do enjoy it. No harm to me. But awkward to watch. And it may be the reason why you preferred her earlier works, when I didn't in the least.
Let me clarify. I prefer EC's early works to--as an example--Salvatore's early works, or indeed his works at all.
Remember, I didn't come out saying, "I'll never read Elaine--she sux." I'm looking for this very input to encourage me to put down feelings I created a foundation for over ten years ago.
To me, this suggests that you are interested in reading some more EC even without our encouragment. If that's the case, just go read! You don't need us to tell you what you already want, do you?
Either you didn't quite read my post, or you're reading at cross purpose. Most people consider fanfiction as something that's most of it undiluted garbage. Sturgeon's Law, only more so. FR fiction is basically fanfic published.
Point taken.
I imagine I have no more problem with human nature and emotion than you do. I do, however, happen to think some authors write terrible drivel, and watching people fanboy them is a bit like witnessing someone lap up days-old vomit while chanting loud adulations to its taste and texture.
As we go again, opinions very. As I'm picky with what I read as a whole, and only read 90-95% of the FR novels that I do out of the sheer love for the setting, I see your point. Yet, as I have my own opinion, I imagine I would see you as the one licking vomit in much of the stuff you read. As is, it is not FR fanfic and therefore not discussed here.
Regardless, maybe its the fact that I do see FR fiction as such a joke, that I can be so vomit licking where it comes to Kemp and Baker. Trust me, I'm more King and Koontz, then Kemp and Baker.
Let me clarify. I prefer EC's early works to--as an example--Salvatore's early works, or indeed his works at all.
No need to clarify. My point on this was related to that of my previous, which, in your previous response, reduced need for clarification.
I'll do my best not to vomit lick anymore for you. M'Kay? ;)
To me, this suggests that you are interested in reading some more EC even without our encouragment. If that's the case, just go read! You don't need us to tell you what you already want, do you?
Honey, I've been trying to tell you this for the last two posts. I simply assume you simply not go back and read our parlay like I asked. ;)
But I didn't want to read her in the beginning--I simply wanted more FR to read. Dialogue here has simply made me realize she is worth another shot.
We done!
Honey, I've been trying to tell you this for the last two posts. I simply assume you simply not go back and read our parlay like I asked. ;)
But I didn't want to read her in the beginning--I simply wanted more FR to read. Dialogue here has simply made me realize she is worth another shot.
We done!
Glad to hear it. Enjoy!
Yet, as I have my own opinion, I imagine I would see you as the one licking vomit in much of the stuff you read.
There're actually certain objective standards to fiction, as much as people like to screech "BUT IT IS MY OPINION WAH WAH SUBJECTIVE WAH WAH." Rating good fiction is harder, but spotting bad prose, crap storytelling, and stilted dialogue is fairly easy. Sometimes I wonder if WotC selects their authors for banality and a lacking imagination, and their editors for incompetence and inability to cross-reference.
There're actually certain objective standards to fiction, as much as people like to screech "BUT IT IS MY OPINION WAH WAH SUBJECTIVE WAH WAH."
-I don't agree, being as that some of the poetry of greatest praise is, well, as I recall seeing somewhere else, undiluted garbage to my mind, which is trained to categorize prose based on certain categories that poets might not use.
-I don't agree, being as that some of the poetry of greatest praise is, well, as I recall seeing somewhere else, undiluted garbage to my mind, which is trained to categorize prose based on certain categories that poets might not use.
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say, but either way there's a reason I said "bad prose, crap storytelling, stilted dialogue" and not "bad poetry." Of course, when it comes to poetry, there are such things as a lack of rhythm (not rhyme; they are different things), lines that don't scan, horrible meter, and so on.
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say, but either way there's a reason I said "bad prose, crap storytelling, stilted dialogue" and not "bad poetry." Of course, when it comes to poetry, there are such things as a lack of rhythm (not rhyme; they are different things), lines that don't scan, horrible meter, and so on.
-And, there are those who, for whatever reason, appreciate such poetry over more traditional poetry that follows the traditional parameters. Thus, taste is subjective, no matter what percieved objective standards exist.
-It wouldn't suprize me if Paizo eventually buys D&D form WotC if 4e bombs. They got to keep the bean counters at Hasbro happy you know.
1)4E isn't going to bomb. Looking at Amazon, the leak of the PDFs have DRIVEN sales. As a Games Retailer, I & WotC learned with 3.5 that customers, for the most part, will upgrade. If for no other reason than they want to buy a D&D book.
2) Paizo's biggest strength is that they have trained a good chunk of their customers to buy direct from them. However, it will telling to see if that chunk is big enough to keep them out of the D&D support market, which is much, much bigger.
3) Their partner, Necromancer Games, is supporting 4E & I really believe that by 2010, their Adventure Paths will be Dual Stat or Pathfinder RPG may even go the way of the dodo.
4) Long term Paizo's biggest problem, IMHO is that retailers won't spotlight them, since thier competing against us & they're not in mass market stores yet. Paizo, while a good sized company in this industery isn't Number 2 yet & there is D&D and everything else. Not D&D and Pathfinder.
1)4E isn't going to bomb. Looking at Amazon, the leak of the PDFs have DRIVEN sales. As a Games Retailer, I & WotC learned with 3.5 that customers, for the most part, will upgrade. If for no other reason than they want to buy a D&D book.
Initially it won't. But perhaps with its dramatic changes, the FR book might
2) Paizo's biggest strength is that they have trained a good chunk of their customers to buy direct from them. However, it will telling to see if that chunk is big enough to keep them out of the D&D support market, which is much, much bigger.
Yes. But people might follow along for the names and the quality if its as good as everyone says
3) Their partner, Necromancer Games, is supporting 4E & I really believe that by 2010, their Adventure Paths will be Dual Stat or Pathfinder RPG may even go the way of the dodo.
4) Long term Paizo's biggest problem, IMHO is that retailers won't spotlight them, since thier competing against us & they're not in mass market stores yet. Paizo, while a good sized company in this industery isn't Number 2 yet & there is D&D and everything else. Not D&D and Pathfinder.
Both true. But there is a decent chance that Paizo could become #2
-And, there are those who, for whatever reason, appreciate such poetry over more traditional poetry that follows the traditional parameters. Thus, taste is subjective, no matter what percieved objective standards exist.
You fail to understand completely. All good poetry has rhythm (I suspect you don't quite know what rhythm means), and good poetry doesn't have bad meter (it may simply not use meter, but that's a different thing). With fiction, you can spot cliched phrases, dialogue that doesn't flow, contrived plot that depends on charcters being idiots, infantile language--these make for bad writing.
Taste is subjective, but there are objective measures: you can argue until you are blue in the face, but I doubt anyone remotely well-read will advance the notion that, say, Richard Baker is a better writer than Nabokov.
Initially it won't. But perhaps with its dramatic changes, the FR book might
Yes. But people might follow along for the names and the quality if its as good as everyone says
Both true. But there is a decent chance that Paizo could become #2
Doesn't matter if the FR book bombs or not. They are only planning 3 rule books. The best we are guarranteed is DDI support beyond that.
You really think those authors won't work with WotC any longer?
I can tell you, from first hand experience, Paizo isn't as strong as White Wolf, Goodman Games or Pinnacle Entertainment, in my markets at least(and know I'm not trying to predict other markets or can guess the number of subscribers they have), let alone D&D.
There is a chance yes. As much as any other company. And as much of a chance that they fully embrace 4E & at a minimum Dual Stat their products.
Paizo is run by very smart, very talented people.
Doesn't matter if the FR book bombs or not. They are only planning 3 rule books. The best we are guarranteed is DDI support beyond that.
What if DDi doesn't get the support they hope for?
You really think those authors won't work with WotC any longer?
Who said that? I just said people will look at that stuff just based on the names and some of them may not go back to WoTC
I can tell you, from first hand experience, Paizo isn't as strong as White Wolf, Goodman Games or Pinnacle Entertainment, in my markets at least(and know I'm not trying to predict other markets or can guess the number of subscribers they have), let alone D&D.
Never said they would, but they are getting good pub and may appraoch those other companies at some point
What if DDi doesn't get the support they hope for?
Who said that? I just said people will look at that stuff just based on the names and some of them may not go back to WoTC
Never said they would, but they are getting good pub and may appraoch those other companies at some point
My point about settings, is that they are not trying to develop them into continuing lines. They are finite. Like World of Darkness games beyond the Vampire, Werewolf, & Mage.
I misread your post. Your right, they can easily work for both companies. Sorry for the confusion.
They have an extremely loyal fanbase. The question remains if their current plans hinge on is how large that fanbase is & will become.
Why would they approach those other companies? To license support for them? To acuire them?
I misread your post. Your right, they can easily work for both companies. Sorry for the confusion.
No problem
They have an extremely loyal fanbase. The question remains if their current plans hinge on is how large that fanbase is & will become.
True enough, bus a solid core fanbase is a good place to start, throw quality into the mix and they may have something
Why would they approach those other companies? To license support for them? To acuire them?
I did not mean approach them in the literal. I meant approach those companies in popularity
True enough, bus a solid core fanbase is a good place to start, throw quality into the mix and they may have something
I did not mean approach them in the literal. I meant approach those companies in popularity
I agree about loyal fans. I'd say that overall Pinnacle's Savage Worlds fans are far less than Paizo's fans & they've manage to leverage the system & maximize it with the great idea of the Core Book at $9.95.
Ah, gotcha! Sorry for being dense. I think they have nowhere to go but up, but the gulf between D&D & every other RPG in the industry is HUGE, so it will be an amazing climb for whoever manages it.
There're actually certain objective standards to fiction, as much as people like to screech "BUT IT IS MY OPINION WAH WAH SUBJECTIVE WAH WAH." Rating good fiction is harder, but spotting bad prose, crap storytelling, and stilted dialogue is fairly easy. Sometimes I wonder if WotC selects their authors for banality and a lacking imagination, and their editors for incompetence and inability to cross-reference.
And this is what I mentioned earlier concerning your dealings with human nature and emotion. It sounds to me as if you are looking at everything through textbook interpretation. Especially as I read your replies towards Karus on his example of poetry.
The written word has nothing to do with a set literary bylaws, it has to do with how it affects the reader. It is an opinion.
I
hate poetry. Think it is too simplistic and lacks flow. But that's just me. I can certainly understand how some people can really get into it. It takes a series of detailed thoughts and emotional entanglement's and compresses them into a number of stanza's to convey an expression of the writer. Some people get, others don't.And it has nothing to do with rhythm or rhyme. It's simply what the reader experiences with it.
So, yes, it is an opinion. Even "critics" of such things, create an opinion.
My man, I don't care if you're an English teacher that graduated from Yale. That's what it is, no textbooks needed.
I think they have nowhere to go but up, but the gulf between D&D & every other RPG in the industry is HUGE, so it will be an amazing climb for whoever manages it.
But if they become #2, they will be doing just fine
I've been thinking WotC was #2 for a while now. ;)
It's logical, otherwise they wouldn't try to sell the crap called 4th edition.
I've been thinking WotC was #2 for a while now. ;)
-Nah, they are the Number 1 entity in the industry, and by far, the Number 1 entity.
-Keryth, I believe it was, told me who he thought could compete with WotC: Steve Bartman Games, or something to that effect. I did a search, and they have something like 22 permanent employees, and had a 2006/7(?) income of about 2 million dollars.
-Personal feelings aside, do you actually think that Paizo, Steve Bartman Games, and whoever else, have the capabilities to compete with a multimillion dllar entiy like WotC?
-I don't think so. WotC, 75% of the time, releases quality products, regardless of what you think about, say, the lore, or the creative decisions. Good illustrations, good mechanics, good quality, all of that. Third party publishers? Not so much, so often.
I was expecting a
from you - you're losing your sense of humor. :P Did any of you guys hear of a company called 3dFX?
Amazing company, skyrocketed to the top of the graphics card industry and were considered #1 throughout the 90's - WAY bigger then the #2 and #3 companies combined.
They made ONE bad decision... and went bankrupt 6 months later.
WotC, by not supporting legacy systems and settings, have basically put all of their eggs in one basket -a VERY big gamble. 4e is "make it or break it" for D&D, and if it doesn't do well...
The vultures are already circling. ;)
I was expecting a
-Damn it...What is all this seriousness doing to me!?
Did any of you guys hear of a company called 3dFX?
Amazing company, skyrocketed to the top of the graphics card industry and were considered #1 throughout the 90's - WAY bigger then the #2 and #3 companies combined.
They made ONE bad decision... and went bankrupt 6 months later.
-What was this bad decision?
WotC, by not supporting legacy systems and settings, have basically put all of their eggs in one basket -a VERY big gamble. 4e is "make it or break it" for D&D, and if it doesn't do well...
The vultures are already circling. ;)
-This part, I can agree with, though I don't believe it is as big of a gamble as you say, nor do I believe that there are any vultures circling at this point.
-Mind you, none of my opinions have changed. I don't like most of the 4e rules, most of the 4e design mantra, and 95% of the 4e Forgotten Realms. I'm just being realistic, here.
Their bad decision was to improve their accelerators speed (frames per seccond) instead of improving their graphics quality, that's the point when Nvidia surpassed them and killed the company.
They decided to stay with this model, and continue to increas the speed of their boards, while their competitors decided to refine the visual quality instead. The problem is that their boards had already broke the 30 FPS barrier... which is the most the human eye can actually process. Their next boards doubled that, and were doing around 70 FPS - which amounted to nothing because we couldn't see anything beyond 30 or so.
They counted on geeks and their 'bragging rights' about how fast their cards were, and forgot that geeks were HIGHLY intelligent people first and foremost, who didn't want to waste their money on frame rates they couldn't even see.
The other two companies caught up and swept past them, and their next board was never released - only about 12 were produced (they are collector's items now, BTW).
The analogy is especially apt because they thought people would be fooled by the speed, and not even care about the quality.
And LK, if all the speculation is correct (or even half of it), this new FR was a desperate move to kick up their numbers - that means they are "under the gun" from the powers that be (Hasbro). They need to keep ther profits up, or their will be cuts in WotC - and they will start with the least lucrative part of the brand.
D&D.
I think this is much more "do or die" then they've let on. If this venture is not a complete success, the axe is gonna drop - you think Hasbro will continue to support the D&D designers after failures? They aren't TSR - THAT company was VERY forgiving when it came to such things. Corporations with shareholders are anything but forgiving. As much as I dislike the new FR, I wish them the best of luck with the 4e rules system. If D&D ever stopped being produced, it would be like a piece of my childhod died.
But what happened to 3Dfx is the perfect example of why the governments of the world don't like smart people they can't control. Smart people figure things out and isn't fooled by colored lights and hollow statements.
It almost seems as if all this horrible PR was done on purpose... ;)
Anyhow, Paizo is great and all, and I really love what they are doing... but its not D&D.
Dungeons & Dragons touches an emotional cord with me - all the friends and good times throught the years. Even though I've played (and enjoyed) just about every P&P RPG system out there, I always came home to D&D. Heck, half the time I thought it was the worst system out of all of them, and I still kept coming back. Its not easy finding a Chivalry & Sorcery game, or a Villains& Vigalante one, or Runequest, or Tunnels & Trolls, or... you get the idea.
But you can always find a bunch of people to play D&D with (at least around here). So you see, it was never about quality for me - it was always about the brand, and that is what is at risk of disappearing. I'm sure there will always be a niche for P&P RPGs - at least until someone perfects an online version of the face-to-face game table (Doritoes, and all), but all of them put together will never be D&D - it was always the standard the others tried to beat.
And LK, if all the speculation is correct (or even half of it), this new FR was a desperate move to kick up their numbers - that means they are "under the gun" from the powers that be (Hasbro). They need to keep ther profits up, or their will be cuts in WotC - and they will start with the least lucrative part of the brand.
D&D.
-As I have said numerous times, the "need" to "kick up the numbers" doesn't necessarily reflect a product that is doing poorly. It simply reflects a product that the parent company wants to do better. For example, I could have a booming hot dog business (just ate dinner! :D), where I make $15,000 every day. But, if I am not happy with $15,000 and want to make $20,000 a day, I am gong to do something to "shake things up" and sell those hot dogs faster. That doesn't necessarily translate to the idea that there was something wrong with my hot dogs, or how I was selling them to begin with. My target's just changed.
Bttw Hi y'all.
18D
Bttw Hi y'all.
-Are you going to be sticking around for a while, or is this a cameo appearance?
4) Long term Paizo's biggest problem, IMHO is that retailers won't spotlight them, since thier competing against us & they're not in mass market stores yet.
Your overall point might be correct, but I did actually see a PF supplement in Barnes and Noble.
Just sayin'.
And well now that WotC isn't going to be supporting 3.5, those that stay 3.5 have someone to buy 3.5(3P) stuff from. So Paizo should do fine, key word being should.:P 18D :D
I do want them to switch over to 4E in a year and maybe still produce their 3.75 until that no longer is profitable. I may still pick up 3.5 adventures from them just so I can get ideas from the product. The only thing I do not like about Paizo is the Adventure Path idea. I like the general idea but having it go from 1 to 20 is very restricive to many DMs and players. Many of us who hate railroads would like the "Path" to be cut down to 3 to 5 adventures maybe with not as many gained in that time.
I went on Necro boards and they are basically working with Paizo it seems for the whole 4E thing. They are also going to be producing books about classes and races that WOTC held out on. They know gamers want things now and will buy it. WOTC also knows that people will buy Necros product then buy theirs a year later because many gamers need
the "core" legit product when it comes out. They will buy the "kockoff" classes until the WOTC stuff comes out. I hope a PSionic book is out soon.;)
I do want them to switch over to 4E in a year and maybe still produce their 3.75 until that no longer is profitable.
Blech. No thanks. I hope they get to do their 3.75 version for a lot of years. 4E sucks gravel through a curly straw.
-Return to the topic of Elaine Cunningham, her past, present and future projects, and so on...
-As I have said numerous times, the "need" to "kick up the numbers" doesn't necessarily reflect a product that is doing poorly. It simply reflects a product that the parent company wants to do better. For example, I could have a booming hot dog business (just ate dinner! :D), where I make $15,000 every day. But, if I am not happy with $15,000 and want to make $20,000 a day, I am gong to do something to "shake things up" and sell those hot dogs faster. That doesn't necessarily translate to the idea that there was something wrong with my hot dogs, or how I was selling them to begin with. My target's just changed.
Yes, and if that doesn't work and your hot dog business still doesn't yield the $20K per day you would just stop your hot dog business and use your money to found something else that brings $20k a day.
For the fan of your hot dog it simply means that they product the loved is no longer avaible despite that there was never anyting wrong with their hot dogs and they made a lot of profit.
Same could happen to D&D. 3.x brought revenue X and now they had to do 4e because the high ups demanded revenue x+n. If 4e fails to bring x+n these high ups might not be content to go back to x and cancel the whole D&D in favor of something brand new they hope will bring x+n
I don't know. Stuff have been happening here and my WHOLE chain of command is trying to get me more active (to distract me) and that by default give me less time at the office
Ody is like that stray dog that comes by now and again for scraps. His punishment for being a grunt. ;)
Same could happen to D&D. 3.x brought revenue X and now they had to do 4e because the high ups demanded revenue x+n. If 4e fails to bring x+n these high ups might not be content to go back to x and cancel the whole D&D in favor of something brand new they hope will bring x+n
Never happen. D&D is the founding father of all RPG's. It will always remain in some fashion or the other. And by name.
Yes, and if that doesn't work and your hot dog business still doesn't yield the $20K per day you would just stop your hot dog business and use your money to found something else that brings $20k a day.
-I'm not a shrewd businessman.
For the fan of your hot dog it simply means that they product the loved is no longer avaible despite that there was never anyting wrong with their hot dogs and they made a lot of profit.
-Maybe, maybe not. Personally speaking, I see the value of keeping my hands in more than one pot.
-Maybe, maybe not. Personally speaking, I see the value of keeping my hands in more than one pot.
That depends on whether that is really the best thing you could do with your money or not. If you don't have the founds to keep your hands in all pots but only in 2/3 pots and the hot dog pot is only yielding 17k while pot X and pot Y yield the 20k, then you would withdraw from the hot dog business. If you have enough money you would continue the hot dog business because while it may not meet your actual goals for what your investments should earn, you just lack the opportunity for a better investment right now.
It's not unusual for companies to tell their subsidiaries to cancel anything below profitability x. In the best case they do indeed have enough other ventures with profitability x+n to keep all their freed capital buy, in the worst case they have stopped anything yielding only x but since they do not have the option to do something more profitable their capital is now collecting dust on their bank account and thus yielding less than the previous x.
So the real question is not is something is doing "well" but whether it's doing "well enough" (and if not if you have the option of shifting all your founds into something that does "well enough" or if you have to stay with only "well" because you can't get into something else at the moment)
The only thing I do not like about Paizo is the Adventure Path idea. I like the general idea but having it go from 1 to 20 is very restricive to many DMs and players. Many of us who hate railroads would like the "Path" to be cut down to 3 to 5 adventures maybe with not as many gained in that time.
I think that's a good point.
On the other hand, a complete story arc is a boon for time-strapped DMs out there.
I do want them to switch over to 4E in a year and maybe still produce their 3.75 until that no longer is profitable.
According to the latest version of the OGL (or whatever they are calling 4e), no company can produce products for both 3e and 4e simultaneously. Thats right - WotC put that right there in the rules, which nerfs Paizo's plan to create products for both editions.
They also added a clause which says they can cancel any company's useage of 4e at any time at their own discretion. Why would any company in their right mind agree to such a thing? Allow a competitor to place a noose around their throats?
Its insane.
As of right now, I am not aware of ANY 3rd party company which will be swithching to 4e at this time. The second Hasbro feels their toes being stepped on, they will yank the rug out from under them.
And... ummm... Elaine is great... and ummm... I hope she rights some more cools stuff in the future. ;)
Sorry for going off-topic, but I feel a need to address this -
According to the latest version of the OGL (or whatever they are calling 4e), no company can produce products for both 3e and 4e simultaneously. Thats right - WotC put that right there in the rules, which nerfs Paizo's plan to create products for both editions.
Since when? I was under the assumption, that there was free reign with the licence agreement....
Thats it - its not 'Open Content' like 3e was - they learn what happens when you open Pandora's box.
Unfortunately for them, they can't shut the old one now, but they did learn from their mistake.
The news has been all over the Paizo boards for awhile now. You may only develop for one system or the other, NOT BOTH!
And WotC can pull the plug without a moments notice......
The latest version leaves WotC in COMPLETE control of 4e, and retains the rulesystem as THEIR Intellectual Property, with permission granted to others for useage.
Thas it - its not 'Open Content' like 3e was - they learn what happens when you open Pandora's box.
Unfortunately for them, they can't shut the old one now, but they did learn from their mistake.
The news has been all over the Paizo boards for awhile now. You may only develop for one system or the other, NOT BOTH!
And WotC can pull the plug without a moments notice......
Thank, Bejebuz. While the whole thing was refreshing, it still scared me.
Sorry for going off-topic, but I feel a need to address this -
According to the latest version of the OGL (or whatever they are calling 4e), no company can produce products for both 3e and 4e simultaneously. Thats right - WotC put that right there in the rules, which nerfs Paizo's plan to create products for both editions.
They also added a clause which says they can cancel any company's useage of 4e at any time at their own discretion. Why would any company in their right mind agree to such a thing? Allow a competitor to place a noose around their throats?
Its insane.
As of right now, I am not aware of ANY 3rd party company which will be swithching to 4e at this time. The second Hasbro feels their toes being stepped on, they will yank the rug out from under them.
And... ummm... Elaine is great... and ummm... I hope she rights some more cools stuff in the future. ;)
Tell that to the guys at Necro because as of last week or so they siad that is what they are doing. Again Hasbro will let this happen because the goobs will still buy their product to play the "official" bar, barbarian , monk ect.
They know the "competitors " really have got nothing on them, even if they did they don't have the money to be truely competitive. Paizo is working through Necro games so they most likely found the loophole. When Paizo stops selling 3.75 books or when it is not profitable to make 3.75 books they will switch over to 4E. Pretty simple really.
So the real question is not is something is doing "well" but whether it's doing "well enough" (and if not if you have the option of shifting all your founds into something that does "well enough" or if you have to stay with only "well" because you can't get into something else at the moment)
-Yes. This is what I said at the beginning:
-As I have said numerous times, the "need" to "kick up the numbers" doesn't necessarily reflect a product that is doing poorly. It simply reflects a product that the parent company wants to do better...That doesn't necessarily translate to the idea that there was something wrong with my hot dogs, or how I was selling them to begin with. My target's just changed.
And... ummm... Elaine is great... and ummm... I hope she rights some more cools stuff in the future. ;)
-Good job.