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Eldath?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
doc_dog
Dec 19, 2009 15:03:34 Two questions:
Where can I find out the in-depth information for Eldath? Faiths and Avatars? I am guessing but not sure
Does Eldath still exist in the 4e world?
#2
lord_karsus
Dec 19, 2009 15:35:24 -Information on Eldath can be found primarily in Faiths and Avatars(2e), as well as Faiths and Pantheons (3e). The first source is the better source, being as that Faiths and Pantheons was more or less a collection (with a great deal of editing for space) of the 2e books detailing the deities of Faerûn.

-As for Eldath still existing...While she may be absent from the FRCG, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. That is, she might not be found in the book anywhere, but that doesn't mean that she magically doesn't exist anymore. As a general rule of thumb, things that are not mentioned aren't necessarily gone. They continue to exist, as they were, until something specifically contradicts that notion. So, until a book says that Eldath is X, Y, or Z, she is simply as she was in the last published source about her, doing the same kinds of things that she was doing in the last published source about her. The 4e Forgotten Realms books were written from the standpoint of, to paraphrase Rich Baker, "...Is it really that important to most FR campaigns that there used to be a goddess of streams and ponds called Eldath?" That is, they were written from the point of view of maximizing the amount of basic information that would be availible to players picking up the books. I don't agree with such a point of view, because it then prompts situations like this, where something that isn't necessarily an element of a D&D game (though, in my own game, other players and the DM have referenced Eldath in at least two occassions in the past couple of games) is minimized to the point of near disappearance, when in fact, said entity hasn't disappeared, or hasn't undergone any other kind of metamorphasis.
#3
marius4
Dec 19, 2009 19:12:32 What LK said. Plus....

Eldath is considered a primal spirit of Toril in 4e mechanical terminology, as is Nobanion. Lurue is considered an archfey tied to the feywild (as some hope or suspect Eilistraee has become). This can have as much or as little effect on your game as you like.

Source is the Realmslore: Sarifal article on the Moonshaes.

"Oft featured in song, Myrloch is a large
freshwater lake; its 800 square miles are deep, cold,
and clear. ...man-made islands on the loch, called
crannógs. ...these small islands
served as shrines to the lake spirit Eldath. A hand-
ful of crannóg remain today, preserved by nereids in
service to Sarifal."
#4
sfdragon
Dec 19, 2009 19:22:41 I was thinking of tha article, and even looked a t it, but I was to pressed for time.

anyway
the cosmology terms for power
greater god
god
exarch
Archfey
primal spirit
primordial
devil/demon

now get someone to explain it all
#5
lord_karsus
Dec 19, 2009 23:35:31
anyway
the cosmology terms for power
greater god
god
exarch
Archfey
primal spirit
primordial
devil/demon

now get someone to explain it all

-That really doesn't come out right. Extraplanar creatures should all be on the same ring- Archdemons, Devil Lords, Yugoloth Lords, Archfey, Archelementals, etc. They're all basically the same thing, sans differing alignments, planes, elemental affinities, environments, etc. Also, using my basic index to measure divine power, a deity can be a deity, but be relativley weak- take Finder Wyvernspur, for example. Extraplanar creatures, and other things of that nature can and do exist that weild power and influence that far outstrips that of 'traditional' deities.
#6
The_Silversword
Dec 25, 2009 3:01:56 So if Eldath is now a primal spirit, does that mean that her priests are now Shamans and Druids? Or i guess she always had lots of Druids among her followers, but what about clerics? Would clerics still get prayers from Eldath, or would they have to be a primal class?
#7
marius4
Dec 25, 2009 3:57:53
So if Eldath is now a primal spirit, does that mean that her priests are now Shamans and Druids?

Yes. Hers is not intended as a story of transformation from a deity. IOW, in-story one might say she was previously lumped together by mortal reckoning as a deity but is now understood by scholars to be a primal spirit. (It is assumedly doubtful she cared how they classified her.)
Or i guess she always had lots of Druids among her followers, but what about clerics? Would clerics still get prayers from Eldath, or would they have to be a primal class?

I'd say technically speaking, clerics in the past would just have been called that but would mechanically be represented by primal classes (perhaps shamans with subtle/invisible/unknown spirit companions). ...Unless of course you go the "it's the faith not the deity" route. Really, this seems like a "bottom line it's up to you" question, doesn't it?

In the present day, her magical followers seem more clearly intended to be represented by primal classes...druids and shamans who perhaps commune with elusive water spirits more often than feral animal spirits. The PH2 describes some shamans as scholars researching lost lore; an Eldathyn "cleric" might easily be one of these. Additionally, a PP might be good for tying in a serene & cloistered feel to some of her followers.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 doc_dog Dec 19, 2009 15:03:34	Two questions: Where can I find out the in-depth information for Eldath? Faiths and Avatars? I am guessing but not sure Does Eldath still exist in the 4e world?
#2 lord_karsus Dec 19, 2009 15:35:24	-Information on Eldath can be found primarily in Faiths and Avatars(2e), as well as Faiths and Pantheons (3e). The first source is the better source, being as that Faiths and Pantheons was more or less a collection (with a great deal of editing for space) of the 2e books detailing the deities of Faerûn. -As for Eldath still existing...While she may be absent from the FRCG, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. That is, she might not be found in the book anywhere, but that doesn't mean that she magically doesn't exist anymore. As a general rule of thumb, things that are not mentioned aren't necessarily gone. They continue to exist, as they were, until something specifically contradicts that notion. So, until a book says that Eldath is X, Y, or Z, she is simply as she was in the last published source about her, doing the same kinds of things that she was doing in the last published source about her. The 4e Forgotten Realms books were written from the standpoint of, to paraphrase Rich Baker, "...Is it really that important to most FR campaigns that there used to be a goddess of streams and ponds called Eldath?" That is, they were written from the point of view of maximizing the amount of basic information that would be availible to players picking up the books. I don't agree with such a point of view, because it then prompts situations like this, where something that isn't necessarily an element of a D&D game (though, in my own game, other players and the DM have referenced Eldath in at least two occassions in the past couple of games) is minimized to the point of near disappearance, when in fact, said entity hasn't disappeared, or hasn't undergone any other kind of metamorphasis.
#3 marius4 Dec 19, 2009 19:12:32	What LK said. Plus.... Eldath is considered a primal spirit of Toril in 4e mechanical terminology, as is Nobanion. Lurue is considered an archfey tied to the feywild (as some hope or suspect Eilistraee has become). This can have as much or as little effect on your game as you like. Source is the Realmslore: Sarifal article on the Moonshaes. "Oft featured in song, Myrloch is a large freshwater lake; its 800 square miles are deep, cold, and clear. ...man-made islands on the loch, called crannógs. ...these small islands served as shrines to the lake spirit Eldath. A hand- ful of crannóg remain today, preserved by nereids in service to Sarifal."
#4 sfdragon Dec 19, 2009 19:22:41	I was thinking of tha article, and even looked a t it, but I was to pressed for time. anyway the cosmology terms for power greater god god exarch Archfey primal spirit primordial devil/demon now get someone to explain it all
#5 lord_karsus Dec 19, 2009 23:35:31	anyway the cosmology terms for power greater god god exarch Archfey primal spirit primordial devil/demon now get someone to explain it all -That really doesn't come out right. Extraplanar creatures should all be on the same ring- Archdemons, Devil Lords, Yugoloth Lords, Archfey, Archelementals, etc. They're all basically the same thing, sans differing alignments, planes, elemental affinities, environments, etc. Also, using my basic index to measure divine power, a deity can be a deity, but be relativley weak- take Finder Wyvernspur, for example. Extraplanar creatures, and other things of that nature can and do exist that weild power and influence that far outstrips that of 'traditional' deities.
#6 The_Silversword Dec 25, 2009 3:01:56	So if Eldath is now a primal spirit, does that mean that her priests are now Shamans and Druids? Or i guess she always had lots of Druids among her followers, but what about clerics? Would clerics still get prayers from Eldath, or would they have to be a primal class?
#7 marius4 Dec 25, 2009 3:57:53	So if Eldath is now a primal spirit, does that mean that her priests are now Shamans and Druids? Yes. Hers is not intended as a story of transformation from a deity. IOW, in-story one might say she was previously lumped together by mortal reckoning as a deity but is now understood by scholars to be a primal spirit. (It is assumedly doubtful she cared how they classified her.) Or i guess she always had lots of Druids among her followers, but what about clerics? Would clerics still get prayers from Eldath, or would they have to be a primal class? I'd say technically speaking, clerics in the past would just have been called that but would mechanically be represented by primal classes (perhaps shamans with subtle/invisible/unknown spirit companions). ...Unless of course you go the "it's the faith not the deity" route. Really, this seems like a "bottom line it's up to you" question, doesn't it? In the present day, her magical followers seem more clearly intended to be represented by primal classes...druids and shamans who perhaps commune with elusive water spirits more often than feral animal spirits. The PH2 describes some shamans as scholars researching lost lore; an Eldathyn "cleric" might easily be one of these. Additionally, a PP might be good for tying in a serene & cloistered feel to some of her followers.