So while building some monsters I began wondering what excalty elder evils should be in 4e. There are several possible solutions:
- They are primordials and live in the Elemental Chaos (as the FRCG suggests).
- They are primordials and are scattered across the cosmos (as Open Grave suggests).
- They are not primordials but live in the Elemental Chaos.
- They are immortal creatures and live in the Astral Sea.
- They are not immortal creatures and live in the Astral Sea.
- They are immortal/elemental/natural/aberrant/whatever creatures and are scattered across the cosmos.
While number 1 and/or 2 might be canon and the numbers 3 to 5 are crap I'll choose number 6.
So, after setting this right, with every elder evil a unique being with a unique background and origin and everything, the issue is determining what the respecitve elder evils actually are. So, before I start there just one more question that has to be considered: 'Does such an enemy of the deities necessarily have to be a primordial?'
Here's a list of a few creatures that immediately come to mind:
- Dendar: I already made her an elemental monster, but now I'm not sure if this is appropriate. I see no reason why she should be elemental, so I assume she could as well be an immortal magical beast, who's lair lies somewhere in the Astral Sea.
- Kezef: Same as with Dendar. Just because he hunts down deities he doesn't have to be one of those elemental bad guys. So, immortal magical beast who travels constantly through the Astral Sea fits as well.
- Ityak-Ortheel: Ok, not that easy. Born of the blood of two deities but it lurks in the Abyss. Definitely not natural, maybe aberrant, and again I see no reason why it should be elemental. So immortal magical beast that waits patiently in the Abyss.
- Pandorym: Due to it's association with the Far Realm, I made it an aberrant living construct that is imprisoned on the prime.
- Atropus: I guess natural animate (undead). Or not. Definitely on the prime.
- Father Llymic: Aberrant magical beast in the Far Realm.
- Ragnorra: Aberrant or immortal magical beast on the prime. I think aberrant fits better.
- The Hulks of Zoretha: Natural animate (construct) and on the prime.
- The Leviathan: Natural magical beast and on the prime.
That's all for the moment. If you know of more elder evils feel free to present them here.
Anyway, I appreciate any comments and thoughts since the FRCG and any other official 4e sources are rather vague on that matter.
Keveras
Not being familiar with the mechanics of 4e, thats all I got.
do all primordials have to be elemental? that's weird
Dendar could be a primordial of the Shadowfel, particularly if you place the Region of Nightmares there (and the Region of Dreams in Feywild)
same for the shadevari and I'd even include Shar as primordial
Atropus could be the ''lefterover'' after the formation of the original god of death (probably Jergal), immortal undead
Kezef, immortal magical beast fits, but he travels everywhere, mostly Shadowfel, cause of the souls and Mask
Hulks as far as I remember are elemental
the Leviathan doesn't seem natural, it's really out of balance, aberrant magical beast? (again why do all ''aberrations'' have to originate in the Far Realm)
Ragnorra, maybe aberrant immortal if there is such thing, she seems similar to Talona with the overabundance of life, it's possible that these two were one being once, then fragmented with the appearance of mortal belief
You may even want to use all three and go the 'Four Horseman of the Apocalpse' route, using Jergal as the 4th Horseman... DEATH.
And if it's got tentacles, then it has to be from the Far Realms - Cthulhuism has 'brainwashed' us all. :P
And is there more Fallen than Malkazid, the Departed?
Mild Spoiler: What's Kezef doing now that Mask isn't around?
-It was a shame that he wasn't even mentioned in the Erevis Cale or Twilight War trilogies. Mask was given a sword (I think it was a sword. A katana?) by Mystra that was a Bane to Kezef, causing him to back off of Mask a bit in Crucible: Trial of Cyric the Mad.
cord?
Can you put a rope in his nose, or pierce his jaw with a hook?
Will he make many supplications to you? Will he speak to you soft words?
Will he make a covenant with you to take him for your servant for ever?
Will you play with him as with a bird, or will you put him on leash for
your maidens?
Will traders bargain over him? Will they divide him up among the merchants?
Can you fill his skin with harpoons, or his head with fishing spears?
Lay hands on him; think of the battle; you will not do it again!
Question; where are you getting these names from, exactly?
The name of the thread title is the name of the source.
Dendar could be a primordial of the Shadowfel, particularly if you place the Region of Nightmares there (and the Region of Dreams in Feywild)
Imo Dendar being a shadow creature is as unlikely as her being an elemental creature, although the thing with these regions would fit. Anyway, I'm not sure if a 'shadow primordial' would still be a primordial, though.
the Leviathan doesn't seem natural, it's really out of balance, aberrant magical beast? (again why do all ''aberrations'' have to originate in the Far Realm)
Good point. Especially when you consider that he's a kind of chaos beast.
Mild Spoiler: What's Kezef doing now that Mask isn't around?
No idea what he's doing, but he is mentioned in the FRCG.
And is there more Fallen than Malkazid, the Departed?
Yeah, there are many fallen celestials, though only a few have been mentioned in canon by WotC. Most notably, some of the Lords of the Nine are fallen.
Question; where are you getting these names from, exactly?
MarkusTay already answered it. However, there are more elder evils mentioned in Elder Evils but since I don't regard them as elder evils I didn't even include them in the list above.
Can you draw out Leviathan with a fishhook, or press down his tongue with a
cord?
Can you put a rope in his nose, or pierce his jaw with a hook?
Will he make many supplications to you? Will he speak to you soft words?
Will he make a covenant with you to take him for your servant for ever?
Will you play with him as with a bird, or will you put him on leash for
your maidens?
Will traders bargain over him? Will they divide him up among the merchants?
Can you fill his skin with harpoons, or his head with fishing spears?
Lay hands on him; think of the battle; you will not do it again!
-I can do all of that. And then some.
I think Kezef probably left FR chasing after Tyr - he still wants that other hand, ya know.
-And then, after Tyr hit the big one?
Not quite getting you, there. What 'Big One'?
-Tyr is dead. He died defending the "upper realms" from a Demonic incursion, as per the FRCG, sometime during the transitory years between 1,375 DR and 1,479 DR.
So does that mean Ragnarok happened? It must have, if Tyr is dead (or is WotC trying to be like Disney, and changing ancient mythology to suit their own ends?)
Musta been one of the sections I skipped.
So does that mean Ragnarok happened? It must have, if Tyr is dead (or is WotC trying to be like Disney, and changing ancient mythology to suit their own ends?)
No, since only their Tyr is dead (the faerunian one), not our Tyr ;)
Imo Dendar being a shadow creature is as unlikely as her being an elemental creature, although the thing with these regions would fit. Anyway, I'm not sure if a 'shadow primordial' would still be a primordial, though.
if Ubtao was a primordial, maybe primordials doesn't have to be all elemental?
--------
in my FR a version of Ragnarok did happen, there was a Thule-like pre-Sundering civilization, Tyr reincarnated into Anachtyr
if Ubtao was a primordial, maybe primordials doesn't have to be all elemental?
So far we can only guess at that.
Mud are all considered "Primordials", which they all might possibly be, there aren't any inherent elemental connections for all three of them.
Pandorym: Due to it's association with the Far Realm, I made it an aberrant living construct that is imprisoned on the prime.
I'd actually argue that Pandorym isn't from the Far Realm. Elder Evils says that he's from a dimension "perpendicular" to the Great Wheel cosmology, not the Far Realm. He also seems to be a sort of sentient black hole, which doesn't square with the very squishy, organic, tentacley feel of Far Realm aberrants.
anyway
I'd actually argue that Pandorym isn't from the Far Realm.
And I would agree with you. Not everything from another reality needs to be from the Far Realm. In fact there's nothing in Pandorym's description and history in either Elder Evils or the novel it appears in that actually give any indication that it's from the Far Realms.
That said, the Far Realms is getting seriously overexposed at times, and perhaps increasingly so in 4e at times.
Yeah, there are many fallen celestials, though only a few have been mentioned in canon by WotC. Most notably, some of the Lords of the Nine are fallen.
Baalzebul was a fallen archon (LG to LE).
Asmodeus was a fallen servitor to the primordial exemplars of Law (LN to LE).
There's also a fallen Solar lurking around Hell whose name escapes me, but he shows up in the module 'Squaring the Circle' in the Hellbound box set IIRC.
There's Zelatian XXIII a fallen trumpet archon, currently not associated with any particular race of fiends, but LE last time he was in print. And there are a number of fallen celestials wandering around the Abyss. None of note in any of the NE planes.
And with 4e who the hell knows since the vast majority of planar material has been ignored and/or rewritten from prior canon.
That said, the Far Realms is getting seriously overexposed at times, and perhaps increasingly so in 4e at times.
-Especially with anything that is even remotely aberrant being 'recategorized' as to being of the Far Realms. I know that this is just my personal feelings, but Aberrations =/= Pseudonatural. Not even close, by definitions.
-Especially with anything that is even remotely aberrant being 'recategorized' as to being of the Far Realms. I know that this is just my personal feelings, but Aberrations =/= Pseudonatural. Not even close, by definitions.
I agree, I don't care for the emphasis on the Far Realm as of late, and I also don't like the idea that everything "weird" comes from there.
-I can do all of that. And then some.
Oh really?:P
-Especially with anything that is even remotely aberrant being 'recategorized' as to being of the Far Realms. I know that this is just my personal feelings, but Aberrations =/= Pseudonatural. Not even close, by definitions.
Trust me, I really like a lot of Cordell's early work from the 2e period, but with him on the 4e design team, the Far Realms as a concept are getting painted into everything with a very broad brush. Over-exposure.
Trust me, I really like a lot of Cordell's early work from the 2e period, but with him on the 4e design team, the Far Realms as a concept are getting painted into everything with a very broad brush. Over-exposure.
-Yeah, that's the best word: Overexposure. Too much. No more. In the Manual of the Planes, I thought the concept of the Far Realm was fairly neat and interesting. Since then, however, my enthusiasm for it has waned.
Oh really?:P
-Can't...resist...
-When you see my line, hook, and sinkers, you'll understand.
---
-Keveras, can you answer me a question? Just what exactly differentiates a "Primordial" from basically every other powerful extraplanar entity, such as deities, or Archdevils, or Slaadi Lords, and so on? Their homes seem to be on the elemental plane(s), but there's plenty of non-"Primordial" entities that live in the elemental plane(s).
I have to plunk Drizzt down into this category as well - I remember a time when I thought of him with fondness, not derision.
Trust me, I really like a lot of Cordell's early work from the 2e period, but with him on the 4e design team, the Far Realms as a concept are getting painted into everything with a very broad brush. Over-exposure.
I'd have to agree with this - some of my favorite 2e products (like College of Wizardry) were done by Bruce, but all of his latest efforts just leave me shaking my head.
Doesn't he understand that people who like Cthulhu aren't playing FR? He's not attracting them to FR, he's chasing away those of us who don't care for Cthulhu (and his 'Plateau of Leng').
Would I ever use aberrations? Of course - there is a time and place when anything can be cool. However, instead of given that choice, like I had before, I now have to have them under every rock
FR was always about choices, not just the choices of four men.
Because if so, then that statement doesn't apply to you - you are one of those people they were trying to 'hook' with that plotline.
Anyhow, I think my mother-in-law should be added to this list. :D
Are you a new FR player?
Because if so, then that statement doesn't apply to you - you are one of those people they were trying to 'hook' with that plotline.
Anyhow, I think my mother-in-law should be added to this list. :D
No, I've been into FR since I learned about it's existance (in 2000). I actually prefer the old 2e novels and supplements, but I also happen to like Cthulhu.
-Keveras, can you answer me a question? Just what exactly differentiates a "Primordial" from basically every other powerful extraplanar entity, such as deities, or Archdevils, or Slaadi Lords, and so on? Their homes seem to be on the elemental plane(s), but there's plenty of non-"Primordial" entities that live in the elemental plane(s).
Primordials, as having an elemental origin, are the counterparts to the deities, who are of immortal origin (i.e. they hail from the Astral Sea - as the devils do). Those two groups were the first to populate the cosmos, and they created all the other creatures that now roam the planes, and the primordials even created the Material World, though the deities 'seized' it later.
So far, slaad lords didn't get much attention, but since Bazim-Gorag is a primordial, I assume Ssendam, Ygorl and the others will be primordials, too. Or they are something different, like the demon lords; perhaps 'corrupted' by entropy.
The demon lords, however, were either once primordials who were corrupted by the vile energies of the Abyss or they were minor demons who ascended to lord status after the corruption of the Abyss.
Anyway, I don't know of many non-primordial entities (that are powerful enough to qualify for a primordial) that live in the Elemental Chaos. Imix and the other elemental lords of previous editions are primordials now, according to MotP.
-So, "primordial" is basically the blanket term for any extraplanar entity that is extremely powerful, like a deity, but not a deity?
Just for elemental entities - it's effectively the elemental version of a deity, though there are certain differences, of course (e.g. less worshippers; cults but no church; in-game: no Discorporation power)
Just for elemental entities - it's effectively the elemental version of a deity, though there are certain differences, of course (e.g. less worshippers; cults but no church; in-game: no Discorporation power)
-But there are non-elemental "primordial"- Dendar and Kezef are suggested as two- aren't there?
-But there are non-elemental "primordial"- Dendar and Kezef are suggested as two- aren't there?
FRCG says they might be primordials, but nothing about their origin, unfortunately.
Well, I'd put it that way. If they are indeed primordials, they should definitely be elementals. If they, and all the other elder evils, are not primordials, they should be of any origin.
Anyway, I guess there are a few exceptions on both sides (e.g. Lolth might be an elemental deity). So there may or may not be a 'shadow primordial', as quale suggested.
'Over-exposure' is a very good way of describing most of their efforts. They take a perfectly good idea - like Shadows and Aberrations, and then beat it to death until you're sick of it.
I have to plunk Drizzt down into this category as well - I remember a time when I thought of him with fondness, not derision.
I'd have to agree with this - some of my favorite 2e products (like College of Wizardry) were done by Bruce, but all of his latest efforts just leave me shaking my head.
Doesn't he understand that people who like Cthulhu aren't playing FR? He's not attracting them to FR, he's chasing away those of us who don't care for Cthulhu (and his 'Plateau of Leng').
Would I ever use aberrations? Of course - there is a time and place when anything can be cool. However, instead of given that choice, like I had before, I now have to have them under every rock
FR was always about choices, not just the choices of four men.
Throw me in as another FR player who digs Cthulhu and its associated Mythos. And I've been playing FR since the mid 90s. They aren't mutually exclusive interests. I also love other settings (Planescape, Dark Sun, and Ravenloft especially) so I suppose my tastes are somewhat diverse.
That being said I think I'm starting to feel like the Far Realm is getting a little bit too much attention in this edition. Not everything has to have tentacles, though it's sometimes fun to put players up against things that do. Think that Eberron and its plane of Xoriat might have somthing to do with the extra focus on the Far Realm in 4th Edition in general?
-Can't...resist...
-When you see my line, hook, and sinkers, you'll understand.
Just for elemental entities - it's effectively the elemental version of a deity, though there are certain differences, of course (e.g. less worshippers; cults but no church...)
Don't get me started on that particular little bit...
Think that Eberron and its plane of Xoriat might have somthing to do with the extra focus on the Far Realm in 4th Edition in general?
Perhaps, although I do think a lead FR designer being enamored of Lovecraftian ideas has something to do with it too.
Astral
Dieites - divine
Arch-devils (Hell)
Elemental Chaos
Primordials - elemental
I'd add the elder 'Lost Gods' to this category e.g. Tyranthraxus, Borem, etc...
Demon Lords (Abyss)
Feywild
Archfey - arcane
My opinion is that many nature gods are in fact ascended archfey or just archfey with a more formalize church. I'd say that Eldath was always an archfey for instance (and as such may still be alive!)
Shadowfell
Darklords - shadow
(though the Raven Queen is a diety residing in the Shadowfell of the Core pantheon, Kelemvor in the FR pantheon maintains his home in the Astral)
World
Spirit Lords - primal
I posit that many of the ancient Yuir 'deities' were actually spirit lords
Far Realm
Unnamed - aberrant
a few abberant Elder Evils and Demons from previous editions would fall here now e.g. Pandorym, Juiblex, Ityak-Ortheel (though the Feywild can be evil now too so maybe place the Elf Eater's home deep in the Feydark)
Plane of Dreams
Unnamed
I'd place Dendar the Night Serpent here in the new cosmology
There comes the shadowy
dragon flying,
glittering serpent, up
from Dark of the Moon Hills.
He carries in his pinions
—he flies over the field—
The serpent, corpses.
Now will she sink.
I see Dendar the Night Serpent as Realmspace's built in selfdestruct button devised or evolved by Ao or one of his superiors. Her purpose is to show the consequences of free willed dreaming i.e. end the world in the ultimate horror ever dreamt. Perhaps her intention is reimagining the primes into a nightmare by pulling natural worlds into the plane of dreams/nightmares. Only most innocent dreams prevent this from happening as they have been keeping the plane of dreams in balance and Dendar comatose.
I linked Thayd, the first Red Wizard and traitorous mulhorandi vizier to Dendar in a campaign once, where a returned abberant Thayd used Kaorti infiltrators to wake the Nightserpent while containing Ubtao. If the Night Serpent succesfully swallowed Lathander it would have caused a slip into the near Far Realms (i.e. a reimagined plane of nightmares).
Dendar might be an overdiety of nightmares, like Ao is an overdiety of balance or something.
I see Dendar the Night Serpent as Realmspace's built in selfdestruct button devised or evolved by Ao or one of his superiors.
-That's what her function, as of right now this second, seems to be.
Don't get me started on that particular little bit...
Perhaps, although I do think a lead FR designer being enamored of Lovecraftian ideas has something to do with it too.
True, though I don't if Mr. Cordell is as involved with 4th Edition as a whole and it seems like the Far Realm is getting a lot of play all around.
I am still thinking Wotzees is going to include the psionics powersource, and link it to abberant creatures and the far realm somehow. Psychic as a damage type makes it easy to create freakish abberant monsters that cause insanity.
I am still thinking Wotzees is going to include the psionics powersource, and link it to abberant creatures and the far realm somehow. Psychic as a damage type makes it easy to create freakish abberant monsters that cause insanity.
-With Bruce Cordell, you've got Psionics in one hand, and Far Realm "Aberrations" in the other. You know there's going to be a union there, at some point.
Also, I could see 'Far Realms' being another category to add to Brian's list, and then Aupensor (sp?) could be shoe-horned in there (along with the illithid and Beholder deities).
The funny part is, if each 'planer neighborhood' has a different group of rulers (with godly power), and each corresponds to a differnt power-source in 4e, then we are heading right back to that "needless symetry" that they said they were trying to move away from.
Problem is... a game needs rules, and rules need symetry, otherwise they aren't balanced. So the real universe may lack symetry (although I doubt that), but a cosmology built around a game system MUST have it... and they are finding out now they simply can't move away from it.
So they chucked-out the Great Wheel for something that works VERY similar. Change just for the sake of change, once again.
Don't ge me wrong - the Cosmology is actually something I like in 4e - I just don't see where its so different from the wheel, though, when you come right down to it. In fact, IG, it will really have no effect at all.
I guess dogs aren't the only things that need to "mark their territory".
-The generous sales figures of books like Darkvision and Stardeep bear this out."
The ONLY thing that is indicative of is that people are desperate for Realmslore, and are willing to except sub-par plots and writing to get it.
This is exactly what they were counting on with the DDi - we'd pay for it, and every so often they'd "throw us a bone" and give us an article masquerading as an FR one.
But even 'rabid fanbois' have their limits.
The funny part is, if each 'planer neighborhood' has a different group of rulers (with godly power), and each corresponds to a differnt power-source in 4e, then we are heading right back to that "needless symetry" that they said they were trying to move away from.
-Good point.
The ONLY thing that is indicative of is that people are desperate for Realmslore, and are willing to except sub-par plots and writing to get it.
-I have no access to financial data. He (presumably) does. That said, if I could go back in time, I wouldn't buy Darkvision, because, frankly, it wasn't very good. Stardeep, I am on the fence about, but I would ultimately pick it up, I think.
True, though I don't if Mr. Cordell is as involved with 4th Edition as a whole...
He is.
Anyway, I'm not blaming him for having the preferences he does, I just wish they'd be, well, not put into the forefront.
The funny part is, if each 'planer neighborhood' has a different group of rulers (with godly power), and each corresponds to a differnt power-source in 4e, then we are heading right back to that "needless symetry" that they said they were trying to move away from.
That is a good point.
Well, I never said a person couldn't like both Cthulhu and FR - it just that they are two completely different flavors and IMHO, don't mix well.
Also, I could see 'Far Realms' being another category to add to Brian's list, and then Aupensor (sp?) could be shoe-horned in there (along with the illithid and Beholder deities).
I think that there are certain aspects that work very well, and others not so much. I haven't read the books, but the concept of an "abolethic sovereignty" doesn't sound like it would work well with the Realms. I don't think that they would make an interesting big baddie, partially because they are so alien, and partially because the "alien invasion" concept just doesn't strike me as particularly Realmsian.
On the other hand, I quite like the inclusion of mind flayers. I don't think that they should be a major part of FR intrigue, but I think they work well as mid-level, but still menacing baddies.
I think beholders are the most appropriately used abberations, particularly as they are connected to Fzoul Chembryl. They make very good evil masterminds, and their goals aren't as set in stone as the mind flayers' goals. They are horrific baddies, but they don't organize well (except as connected to Fzoul) and they have more understandable motives. In the one situation in which players are likely to see them organized, it just adds to the bada**ery of the Zhentarim.
The funny part is, if each 'planer neighborhood' has a different group of rulers (with godly power), and each corresponds to a differnt power-source in 4e, then we are heading right back to that "needless symetry" that they said they were trying to move away from.
Problem is... a game needs rules, and rules need symetry, otherwise they aren't balanced. So the real universe may lack symetry (although I doubt that), but a cosmology built around a game system MUST have it... and they are finding out now they simply can't move away from it.
Yeah, but the symetry isn't that obvious anymore.
Also, power sources are for PCs only. While the powers of monsters have certain keywords (e.g. radiant) you won't see one with the say arcana power-source-keyword.
So the rulers effectively don't use them. Of course, it's likely that you (and me, too) integrate that in the story, but in the canon rules it isn't included.
Yeah, but the symetry isn't that obvious anymore.
-Well, if it is that 'deities' rule in the Astral area, 'primordials' rule in the Elemental area, 'spirits' rule in the World area, 'Darklords' in the Shadow area, 'Archfey' in the Fey area, and so on, it's a sense of symmetry and/or order (depending on how you want to use the words) that surpasses even how it worked in the past- deities existed in the Shadow area, deities existed in the Elemental area, and so on...
-Well, if it is that 'deities' rule in the Astral area, 'primordials' rule in the Elemental area, 'spirits' rule in the World area, 'Darklords' in the Shadow area, 'Archfey' in the Fey area, and so on, it's a sense of symmetry and/or order (depending on how you want to use the words) that surpasses even how it worked in the past- deities existed in the Shadow area, deities existed in the Elemental area, and so on...
Still not as extensive as in previous editions.
If there is law there must be chaos. If there is good there must be evil. If there are LG paragons, there must be NG, CG, LE, NE, CE paragons, and so on.
Anyway, MaruksTay is right, there's still enough symetry with the 4e cosmology, but then not as much as in the Great Wheel.
As I said, to people living in FR, none of the cosmic changes matter one wit. The Great Wheel wasn't eliminated because it was bad, it was eliminated because someone currently working for WotC had a 'better idea'.
An at the end of the day, either way - and in 3e as well - what we have there is a great big universe full of planes that gods and other celestial beings (including Fiends) dwell in an meddle with 'mere mortals' - usually making them very miserable in the process. The actual 'structure' of the universe is "beyond human comprehension", and the 'models' we are given are mere two-demensional representations of an eleven-dimensional universe... and of course they fall way short of the mark.
THAT is the definitioon of the Cosmolgy in EVERY edition. What they changed was the abstract model, not the actual cosmos - no-one, not even the 'gods', know how it all really works.
And I'm fine with that.
-I have no access to financial data. He (presumably) does. That said, if I could go back in time, I wouldn't buy Darkvision, because, frankly, it wasn't very good. Stardeep, I am on the fence about, but I would ultimately pick it up, I think.
See that - how much we like a novel is directly related to our areas of interest... and in no way represent the actual 'goodness' of the writing.
You like Elves, so you enjoyed (somewhat) a novel about Star Elves. I do not like Elves, so I haven't even bothered to read it, and yet I greatly enjoyed Darkvision because it took place in the Hordelands/Golden Waters region - an area I have a GREAT interest in.
Which begs the question - were the novels actually any good, or were we just 'there' for the lore?
Still not as extensive as in previous editions.
-Depends. If there isn't variance allowed- and so far, it's really too early to tell- I would say it's more ordered and symmetrical than in the past (though, with 'extensiveness', we'll have to see how much exactly is written.). If everything in this category goes here, and everything in that category goes there, and so on, that's a lot more structured than in the past, while there was a lot of "mixing-and-matching"- Deities living on the Material Plane, Fiends living in the Elemental Planes, Fey living on the Plane of Shadows, and so on and so forth.
See that - how much we like a novel is directly related to our areas of interest... and in no way represent the actual 'goodness' of the writing.
-Of course. Just because R.A. Salvatore has many New York Times Best Sellers doesn't actually mean that those novels were the bees' knees, or were 'up to par'- though this is certainly a subjective thing. The list is simply based on weekly sales reports. R.A. Salvatore selling a lot of books because Drizzt is in them doesn't somehow translate into the information contained in those novels to somehow be "extra superior", or whatever else, as many fanboyish-types have tried to make the case in the past, when R.A. Salvatore was criticized for his stubborn problems with continuity and such.
You like Elves, so you enjoyed (somewhat) a novel about Star Elves. I do not like Elves, so I haven't even bothered to read it, and yet I greatly enjoyed Darkvision because it took place in the Hordelands/Golden Waters region - an area I have a GREAT interest in.
-An area (The Hordelands) I also have an interest in, as well as the Imasakari. The story was extremely subpar, however, from plangents to the "two alternate realities of Ususi colliding to fix 'our' reality" part. It has been the better part of like two years since I read it, though, and my perception on it might be colored a bit, remembering only the bad and not necessarily the good.
Which begs the question - were the novels actually any good, or were we just 'there' for the lore?
-Depends on the situation. I, myself, after reading pretty much consecutively and not liking the novels Bloodwalk and Crypt of the Moaning Diamond learned to stop buying Forgotten Realms novels because they were Forgotten Realms novels.
If there is law there must be chaos. If there is good there must be evil. If there are LG paragons, there must be NG, CG, LE, NE, CE paragons, and so on.
But then the designers referring to it as "needless symetry" is just another cheap-shot at earlier editions and designers.
They are saying that those earlier guys - whose huge shoulders they perch upon - created a lot of 'useless crap' that they have done us the favor of getting rid of.
When , in fact, all they did was re-name it and hide it better.
How can they possibly sing the praises of 4e's "perfectly balanced system", and then go ahead and talk about 'needless symetry'. You cannot have balance without symetry - which means that 4e has more of this so-called "needless symetry" then any other edition ever created (if it is as truly balanced as everyone says it is).
Anyway, we are going way off-topic here, and it all because of Lord Karsus. :P
JK... Jk...
On-topic
Anyway, I was thinking about the Shadevari mentioned in the War of Light and Darkness sidebar in F&A - they would also make excellent 'Elder Evils' for FR (connected to the Shadowfel/Shadow source, naturally).
There is another version of them that makes them out to be mere reptilian monsters in the Villain's Lorebook, but I would have to say those were 'lesser Shadevari' - mortal decendents of those 'Elder Evils'.
I've been trying to think of another name for those lesser versions, but Shadovari is already in-use by the Shades (and is way to close to the existing name, IMHO), and using 'Shadivar' or 'Shadevaari' would just compound the confusion. 'Shadelings' would make them seem like less-then-Shades, which also isn't appropriate.
Considering their reptilian appearance, Sharukh may be good, but then it sounds to much like Sarrukh.
Shavarow? Shadvarlings? Hmmm... maybe just 'Vaari'...
Edit: Moving away from all those awful 'S' words... the Umbrevari? Umbrilians? Children of Erebus?
Edit 2: The more I think on this, I think they are closer in form to the Slaad - perhaps they are a crossbreed of Slaad Lords and True Shadevari? Then we could go with Sladevari. :D
4e cosmology is much more symmetrical than the old one, before you had several symmetries, now you just have Axis
He is.
Anyway, I'm not blaming him for having the preferences he does, I just wish they'd be, well, not put into the forefront.
Well, then, I suppose that would explain it
This all being said, I'm planning on putting my players up against an emerging Elder Evil at the end of the campaign I'm running. :embarrassLike I said, sometimes it's fun to put the players up against something with tentacles. I just hope I can make it suitably epic.
But then the designers referring to it as "needless symetry" is just another cheap-shot at earlier editions and designers.
They are saying that those earlier guys - whose huge shoulders they perch upon - created a lot of 'useless crap' that they have done us the favor of getting rid of.
When , in fact, all they did was re-name it and hide it better.
How can they possibly sing the praises of 4e's "perfectly balanced system", and then go ahead and talk about 'needless symetry'. You cannot have balance without symetry - which means that 4e has more of this so-called "needless symetry" then any other edition ever created (if it is as truly balanced as everyone says it is).
WotC has always disregarded the previous editions, particularly 3e, since 4e was announced. That said, it seems that WotC thinks this to be the only way to make the players switch to the new ruleset, apparently.
On-topic
Hmmm... maybe just 'Vaari'...
This might be too close to Vaati, then. ;)
On-topic
Anyway, I was thinking about the Shadevari mentioned in the War of Light and Darkness sidebar in F&A - they would also make excellent 'Elder Evils' for FR (connected to the Shadowfel/Shadow source, naturally).
There is another version of them that makes them out to be mere reptilian monsters in the Villain's Lorebook, but I would have to say those were 'lesser Shadevari' - mortal decendents of those 'Elder Evils'.
I've been trying to think of another name for those lesser versions, but Shadovari is already in-use by the Shades (and is way to close to the existing name, IMHO), and using 'Shadivar' or 'Shadevaari' would just compound the confusion. 'Shadelings' would make them seem like less-then-Shades, which also isn't appropriate.
Considering their reptilian appearance, Sharukh may be good, but then it sounds to much like Sarrukh.
Shavarow? Shadvarlings? Hmmm... maybe just 'Vaari'...
-Being what they are, and having been born when they were, they would better qualify as 'Primordial'- impossibly old entities predating existence itself (they came into formation from the primordial nothingness that Shar wants to return things to by destroying reality).
-Ah, what the hell. This is 4e- make them Far Realms entities!
But then the designers referring to it as "needless symetry" is just another cheap-shot at earlier editions and designers.
They are saying that those earlier guys - whose huge shoulders they perch upon - created a lot of 'useless crap' that they have done us the favor of getting rid of.
When , in fact, all they did was re-name it and hide it better.
How can they possibly sing the praises of 4e's "perfectly balanced system", and then go ahead and talk about 'needless symetry'. You cannot have balance without symetry - which means that 4e has more of this so-called "needless symetry" then any other edition ever created (if it is as truly balanced as everyone says it is).
Here! Hear!
-Being what they are, and having been born when they were, they would better qualify as 'Primordial'- impossibly old entities predating existence itself (they came into formation from the primordial nothingness that Shar wants to return things to by destroying reality).
-Ah, what the hell. This is 4e- make them Far Realms entities!
I guess that's one way of doing it....
they are old enough human wise to be considered evil, as everyone else that age are dead, their liches and as such evil.
so would they count?
curious, I must ask do LArloch and Sass qualify for elder evils?
they are old enough human wise to be considered evil, as everyone else that age are dead, their liches and as such evil.
so would they count?
ehhh.... I'd say no... Elder Evils normally per-date time, I believe.
ehhh.... I'd say no... Elder Evils normally per-date time, I believe.
Huh? "Per-date?"
That would make them Present Evils, right?
Elder Evils would have to pre-date time, else they'd still be younglings. ;)
Huh? "Per-date?"
That would make them Present Evils, right?
Elder Evils would have to pre-date time, else they'd still be younglings. ;)
Yes, yes, make fun of the dyslexic-disabled vet... you heartless CENSORED
:P
Huh? "Per-date?"
That would make them Present Evils, right?
Elder Evils would have to pre-date time, else they'd still be younglings. ;)
by human terms they pre date most memory....and humans mind you
So does Elminster
this to me means they may qualify.
curious, I must ask do LArloch and Sass qualify for elder evils?
they are old enough human wise to be considered evil, as everyone else that age are dead, their liches and as such evil.
so would they count?
-No. They're just Human Liches. "Elder Evils" isn't really a 'scientific' classification, but it generally entails massively powerful cosmic entities. Like Galactus, for example. He'd be an "Elder Evil". Queen Veranke of the Skrull might just be as every-bit politically powerful and whatever else as Galactus, but she wouldn't be a "cosmic entity".
You see, on a primordial level, each power-source comes from a different basic element, and there are more then four... WAY more.
Not only do we have the psuedo-elementals and the para-elementals (which I think add up to another 12), we also have the Positive and negative planes, which have become Radiant and Umbral energy (Primordial Radiance and Primordial Shadow).
All of the power-sources can be said to be Primal Elements, that can be manipulated using magic. In that way, you don't need to shoe horn all the Primordials into just four (or five, including cold).
And, of course, theere's Primal Law and Primal Chaos - and Primal Chaos would mean you can indeed have a Chaos Primordial (from the Far Realms, nat).
They have taken the old 'Elements' and thrown them out the window, and have re-aligned them to concepts, which better fits their new rules-structure. Anything that can be called a 'primal Concept', like Time, Space, matter, etc... can have a Primordial attached to it.
For instance, Ptah is the Primordial of Space, and Cronos is the Primordial of time (both of whom have a canon presence within Realmspace).
Perhaps Ao is a Primordial of Matter (Prime Material), and all 'matter Primordials' are given stewardship off a sphere.
What does this all have to do with the thread-topic?
Simple... 'Elder Evils' are just what most folks call Primordials. ;)
After all, before the Spellplague, no-one even knew what a Primordial was, and Elemental Gods have ALWAYS been associated with Elder Evils (see the famous Temple of Elemental Evil for the earliest instance of this).
Elder Evil = Primordial... it really IS that simple.
Well, then, I suppose that would explain it
Like I said, sometimes it's fun to put the players up against something with tentacles. I just hope I can make it suitably epic.
Well, if you're having fun, there's nothing wrong with that at all.
No, Shadevari (the ancient deity-level ones, not those monsters) would be Primordials of Elemental Shadow.
You see, on a primordial level, each power-source comes from a different basic element, and there are more then four... WAY more.
Not only do we have the psuedo-elementals and the para-elementals (which I think add up to another 12), we also have the Positive and negative planes, which have become Radiant and Umbral energy (Primordial Radiance and Primordial Shadow).
All of the power-sources can be said to be Primal Elements, that can be manipulated using magic. In that way, you don't need to shoe horn all the Primordials into just four (or five, including cold).
And, of course, theere's Primal Law and Primal Chaos - and Primal Chaos would mean you can indeed have a Chaos Primordial (from the Far Realms, nat).
They have taken the old 'Elements' and thrown them out the window, and have re-aligned them to concepts, which better fits their new rules-structure. Anything that can be called a 'primal Concept', like Time, Space, matter, etc... can have a Primordial attached to it.
For instance, Ptah is the Primordial of Space, and Cronos is the Primordial of time (both of whom have a canon presence within Realmspace).
Perhaps Ao is a Primordial of Matter (Prime Material), and all 'matter Primordials' are given stewardship off a sphere.
What does this all have to do with the thread-topic?
Simple... 'Elder Evils' are just what most folks call Primordials. ;)
After all, before the Spellplague, no-one even knew what a Primordial was, and Elemental Gods have ALWAYS been associated with Elder Evils (see the famous Temple of Elemental Evil for the earliest instance of this).
Elder Evil = Primordial... it really IS that simple.
So, deities are divine primordials? :D
Anyway, such a classification already existed in 3e. It was used by Dicefreaks, though not with primordials but with entities. There were/are Cosmic Entities, Divine Entities (=Deities), Elemental Entities (not sure if they were not part of the cosmic ones), Nature Entities, Void Entities. Yeah, just to let you know ;)
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.