I like the idea of the Drow having an alternate to Lolth that doesn't lack like some of the other choices did.
The Mask/Elistrae combo seems cool in the books.
Her Brother, Vhauerun(?).
But well, I want to know more when it will come out, too.
The Lady of the Dance has a High Priestess thats the Chosen of TWO gods...think they'd kill off something that...cool?
Oh, wait, ya..they would
Eilistraee and Lloth are the only two to make it.
The Lady of the Dance has a High Priestess thats the Chosen of TWO gods...think they'd kill off something that...cool?
Oh, wait, ya..they would
Cool? Maybe. Somes may say Mary Sueish. Or OP.
Still, greenwood was quoted as liking this creation of his, so...
-Something bad befalls Eilistraee. Drizzt, in the prologue of The Orc King, specifically mentions a horrible tragedy, concerning the followers of Eilistraee. As a deity's followers are his/her lifeblood, this does not bode well for Eilistraee's continued survival into the world of 4e Forgotten Realms.
She's a godess of good aligned drow, which in 95% equals emo. Therefore she's an emo-godess. What else should we expect of her?
She's a godess of good aligned drow, which in 95% equals emo. Therefore she's an emo-godess. What else should we expect of her?
Good drow =/= emo.
Good drow =/= emo.
Good Drow =/= Emo, most of the time. There is a notable correlation, mostly in the first generation escapees.
-Something bad befalls Eilistraee. Drizzt, in the prologue of The Orc King, specifically mentions a horrible tragedy, concerning the followers of Eilistraee. As a deity's followers are his/her lifeblood, this does not bode well for Eilistraee's continued survival into the world of 4e Forgotten Realms.
I just re-read the prologue and it says that Drizzt saw the rise of Elistrae's followers and that now they are "gone.." though he says it in a manner that suggests he doesn't know what happened and isn't all that informed because he is all but trapped in defending the region he and Breunor and Hralien swore to protect.
Perhaps there is hope beyond the area that he knows about.
Perhaps there is hope beyond the area that he knows about.
-Of course. Drizzt is anything but omniscient. Now tie this, however, to the recent Lady Penitent Trilogy.
*checks*
Yep; pg 158, 1375 Nightal 20.
Doesn't she kill her brother and take his followers as her own?
-Yes, the Lady Penitent trilogy.
-Yes, the Lady Penitent trilogy.
I knew that...... yeah.....:embarrass
She's a godess of good aligned drow, which in 95% equals emo. Therefore she's an emo-godess. What else should we expect of her?
Emo Drow? No... Maybe Emo Male Drow, but not Emo Drow. And any Male Drow who's still Emo after watching Eilistraee's priestesses dance needs his head looked at. I have more fun handing my Male Drow off to Hoar. :evillaugh
You got to admit Elistrae the sort of character a psychiatrists would have real fun with the design off...
-Why do you say that?
-Why do you say that?
Lets take a look at her..
CG member of a evil race that dances around nude with the biggest one handed sword shecan get while doing random goodly acts.
I personaly think she some kind of sexal fantasy on the creators part myself...
CG member of a evil race that dances around nude with the biggest one handed sword shecan get while doing random goodly acts.
-Drow are evil due to nurture, and not nature. Before Lolth gained a hold of the race, they were, in most cases, evil, but there were many neutral, and even good Dark Elves out there, on Faerûn. The Descent allowed Lolth to dominate their society, indoctrinating most Drow, making them evil. They aren't evil by nature, however. That said, Eilistraee was born to Corellon Larethian and Auraushnee (Lolth). Thus, there is no reason she has to be evil. If one were simply combining the alignments of her parents, she'd be CN (CG + CE).
-Drow are evil due to nurture, and not nature. Before Lolth gained a hold of the race, they were, in most cases, evil, but there were many neutral, and even good Dark Elves out there, on Faerûn. The Descent allowed Lolth to dominate their society, indoctrinating most Drow, making them evil. They aren't evil by nature, however. That said, Eilistraee was born to Corellon Larethian and Auraushnee (Lolth). Thus, there is no reason she has to be evil. If one were simply combining the alignments of her parents, she'd be CN (CG + CE).
As would her brother, Vhaeraun. Kinda was he had been CN, then I'd have been more willing to have a few Male Drow follow him. He wasn't nearly as sexist as his sister had been and mother is.
Well, she is supposed to embody the freedom of repression and evil for goodly Drow... I could be biased, though, since I'm all for nude dancing chicks, with huge swords, in the moonlight...;)
Me too.
As would her brother, Vhaeraun. Kinda was he had been CN, then I'd have been more willing to have a few Male Drow follow him. He wasn't nearly as sexist as his sister had been and mother is.
-Right. And, Vhaeraun "grew up" following in his mother's footsteps, making him evil. Eilistraee "grew up" in her father's footsteps, making her good. Vhaeraun is a momma's boy, and Eilistraee is a daddy's girl.
-Drow are evil due to nurture, and not nature. Before Lolth gained a hold of the race, they were, in most cases, evil, but there were many neutral, and even good Dark Elves out there, on Faerûn. The Descent allowed Lolth to dominate their society, indoctrinating most Drow, making them evil. They aren't evil by nature, however. That said, Eilistraee was born to Corellon Larethian and Auraushnee (Lolth). Thus, there is no reason she has to be evil. If one were simply combining the alignments of her parents, she'd be CN (CG + CE).
This is contradicted by the events in Blackstaff. In the end of that novel, some of the sharn refuse to become elves again, because by doing so would becom drow, so they remain sharn. So there is a curse by Corellon in effect still. It may not make them evil, but it does have some effect that has contributed to the nature of the drow, otherwise the sharn wouldn't have been unwilling to assume their original form. Assuming that they are already good, or at least neutral, which they seem to be portrayed as in the book.
This is contradicted by the events in Blackstaff. In the end of that novel, some of the sharn refuse to become elves again, because by doing so would becom drow, so they remain sharn. So there is a curse by Corellon in effect still. It may not make them evil, but it does have some effect that has contributed to the nature of the drow, otherwise the sharn wouldn't have been unwilling to assume their original form. Assuming that they are already good, or at least neutral, which they seem to be portrayed as in the book.
-That doesn't contradict anything. As you said so yourself, "it may not make them evil". The fact that Good Drow do exist demonstrates that the Elven High Magic that caused the Descent of the Drow does not magically alter the alignment of the Dark Elf in question.
also Elistrae chose to go with her brother in order to counter him, she was given a choice, after it was shown that she had been an unwilling participant in Lolth's scheme to kill Corellon, he would have let her remain as one of the elven pantheon.
-She still is part of the Seldarine, the the sense that she spends most of her time in her deific realm in Arvandor, rather than her realm on the Demonweb Pits, and consorts with the Seldarine, but rarely any members of the Anti-Seldarine.
-That doesn't contradict anything. As you said so yourself, "it may not make them evil". The fact that Good Drow do exist demonstrates that the Elven High Magic that caused the Descent of the Drow does not magically alter the alignment of the Dark Elf in question.
Then why would the sharn refuse to take their elven form, if their would be no alignment change? The only other reason would be to avoid the stigma of being drow. What are the effects of the curse? They already presumably had the dark skin, so they are avoiding darkvision?
-She still is part of the Seldarine, the the sense that she spends most of her time in her deific realm in Arvandor, rather than her realm on the Demonweb Pits, and consorts with the Seldarine, but rarely any members of the Anti-Seldarine.
In Evermeet Isle of the Elves, she specifically chooses to leave the Seldarine, and at no point have I seen a reference to her as a member of that pantheon. She is a member of the Anti-Seldarine, even if she doesn't consort with any of them, just as Ghaunadaur is, and you don't see him partying with the others either.
Then why would the sharn refuse to take their elven form, if their would be no alignment change?The only other reason would be to avoid the stigma of being drow.
-The stigma of being Drow, I would say, is a good enough reason. The Dark Elves who remained in their Sharn forms also cited, I believe, that they still have unfinished duties to attend to.
What are the effects of the curse? They already presumably had the dark skin, so they are avoiding darkvision?
-We don't know. We don't know the exact stats for Dark Elves before the Descent of the Drow (I do not accept the idea that they were Wood/Wild Elves), we don't have anything to compare it to. That said, Drow have obsidian skin, whereas Dark Elves had brown/dusky/olive/black skin. That's the only major physical difference.
In fairness, I haven't read The Lady Penitent series yet, so her status may have changed.
-Eilistraee has always been like this. The Lady Penitent trilogy does not change anything.
-The stigma of being Drow, I would say, is a good enough reason. The Dark Elves who remained in their Sharn forms also cited, I believe, that they still have unfinished duties to attend to.
no, it states that their reason is to avoid becoming drow.
from Blackstaff:
"Know there are yet sharn in the Realms. There are those of Miyeritar who would become dhaerow with the the Corellon's Descent, should they become n'fhaorn'quessir. They choose to remain as Rhymanthiin's defenders as well as defenders against corrupt magic across the Realms."
They choose, no implied duties. And as far as the stigma, they would be heroes in the hidden city, regardless of their being drow, and the sharn would be aware of good drow surviving on the surface, so there must be an alignment shift involved (it may just open them to corruption).
The descent of the drow is one of the worst aspects of D&D, it should have been eliminated years ago. It serves no real purpose other than to give us a group of elves that are evil and easily identified.
The Anti-Seldarine could corrupt individual elves and establish groups of them without needing to differentiate them physically from the other elves. Imagine if a particular group of humans were singled out for their skin color and not just their behavior (oh wait...)
no, it states that their reason is to avoid becoming drow.
from Blackstaff:
"Know there are yet sharn in the Realms. There are those of Miyeritar who would become dhaerow with the the Corellon's Descent, should they become n'fhaorn'quessir. They choose to remain as Rhymanthiin's defenders as well as defenders against corrupt magic across the Realms."
-You just contradicted yourself: "They choose to remain as Rhymanthiin's defenders as well as defenders against corrupt magic across the Realms" sounds a lot like what I just said- they have "unfinished business" to attend to.
The descent of the drow is one of the worst aspects of D&D, it should have been eliminated years ago. It serves no real purpose other than to give us a group of elves that are evil and easily identified.
-It serves to explain how the Drow became "who" they are. It has caused continuity gaffes, however.
The Anti-Seldarine could corrupt individual elves and establish groups of them without needing to differentiate them physically from the other elves. Imagine if a particular group of humans were singled out for their skin color and not just their behavior (oh wait...)
-Lolth, and other members of the Anti-Seldarine do have non-Drow Elven followers. That said, the bulk of their followers are Drow.
I don't contradict myself, they are choosing to stay as sharn to avoid becoming drow, and since they are still sharn they will take up those duties. They are not staying sharn to fufil those duties. Otherwise the quote would indicate that the some must stay sharn to take up those tasks.
-Yes you did. They are remain Rhymanthiin's defenders, and defending against "corrupt [magics] across the Realms". That entails that these Sharn feel beholden to follow through with this duty. This was the task of the Sharn before the events of Blackstaff as well.
As for my second point, the drow should have never have made it out of the vault. A single city of corrupt elves is a great idea, an entire race borders on racism. It seems petty of Corellon to punish an entire subrace of elves simply to get at the evil ones, or implies that he was predjudiced against that group to begin with.
-Elven Selu'Taar cast the ritual that caused the Descent of the Drow, not Corellon Larethian.
As to the descent (GHotR pg 15: -10000 DR) Corellon's magic, as directed through his priests and High Mages, etc...
They have chosen to defend the city and the Realms only because they fear to become drow, not because some had to remain as sharn.
-I disagree.
As to the descent (GHotR pg 15: -10000 DR) Corellon's magic, as directed through his priests and High Mages, etc...
-Yes, Elven High Magic has always been granted/approved by Corellon Larethian, and then cast by his Selu'Taar. Nothing's new.
*side note; I need to read those book(s), how many are there? I love me some Elf reading.
*side note; I need to read those book(s), how many are there? I love me some Elf reading.
-The Lady Penitent trilogy? There's Sacrifice of the Widow (Book I), Storm of the Dead (Book II), and Ascendency of the Last (Book III [which has not yet been published]). Then, concerning the Blackstaff books, there's Blackstaff, and Blackstaff Tower (which has not yet been published).
-Right. And, Vhaeraun "grew up" following in his mother's footsteps, making him evil. Eilistraee "grew up" in her father's footsteps, making her good. Vhaeraun is a momma's boy, and Eilistraee is a daddy's girl.
*wince* I pity Vhaeraun so much now with that image. A mommay's boy who probably only wanted to make her proud, instead has to deal with insane sexist fem-nazi bigotry. Poor Vhaeraun...
I have Sacrifice of the Widow... I've just never read it. Probably because I couldn't bring myself to read it after throwing the last book in WotSQ away in disgust. I was fine while they were all still in the Underdark, but as soon as they left to the Demonweb Pits and we had all of those Female Drow wanting to become the new Lolth, I just couldn't take it anymore.
Thanks LK, now I have something to do for awhile.
-It's better you do that then some other things...
*wince* I pity Vhaeraun so much now with that image. A mommay's boy who probably only wanted to make her proud, instead has to deal with insane sexist fem-nazi bigotry. Poor Vhaeraun...
-That is quite possible. Vhaeraun, however, is evil, and does enjoy evil. So, while it is very possible that he started out this way, he has been corrupted by these vices at this point.
I have Sacrifice of the Widow... I've just never read it. Probably because I couldn't bring myself to read it after throwing the last book in WotSQ away in disgust. I was fine while they were all still in the Underdark, but as soon as they left to the Demonweb Pits and we had all of those Female Drow wanting to become the new Lolth, I just couldn't take it anymore.
-Well, two things. One, if you read Sacrifice of the Widow, having read Resurrection is a must. Secondly, if you didn't like the War of the Spider Queen series, you are going to like The Lady Penitent trilogy even less.
-That is quite possible. Vhaeraun, however, is evil, and does enjoy evil. So, while it is very possible that he started out this way, he has been corrupted by these vices at this point.
Eh, it happens.
-Well, two things. One, if you read Sacrifice of the Widow, having read Resurrection is a must. Secondly, if you didn't like the War of the Spider Queen series, you are going to like The Lady Penitent trilogy even less.
Well... That answers that question of whether or not I should read it. I liked most of the WotSQ books, right until the end. Then we left the Underdark, and had nothing really but a bunch of Fem-Nazi's run around trying to kill one an other wanting to become the new Lolth. I can only handle so much of that until I just want to start disembodying, Lolthans? Lolthites?
Eh, until I just wanted to start tearing her priesthood apart.Like Cyric, Bane, etc...
As would her brother, Vhaeraun. Kinda was he had been CN, then I'd have been more willing to have a few Male Drow follow him. He wasn't nearly as sexist as his sister had been and mother is.
Yes ordering his worrshippers to using any means neccessary to breed with humen and elven female to create half-drow so he can have a force on the surface who can operate better there isn't sexist at all....
(Referencing 2nd edition souce)I disagree that not having male priest is sexist. There is nothing in her doctrine that say women should have all the power and that males are inferior...
Well... That answers that question of whether or not I should read it.
-It has plenty of RSEs, if you want to keep on top of all of that. But, as sources to draw meaningful lore from, and even as books themselves, I really don't reccomend them.
I disagree that not having male priest is sexist. There is nothing in her doctrine that say women should have all the power and that males are inferior...
Sexist: Pertaining to, involving, or fostering sexism.
Sexism: Discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities.
-The Church of Eilistraee is sexist.
Originally Posted by Lord Karsus
Sexist: Pertaining to, involving, or fostering sexism.
Sexism: Discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities.
-The Church of Eilistraee is sexist.
Praise Jebuz! Howaywooya!
Thank you.
WoTC really has a thing about drow chicks. I think they looked at those trading cards too much and decided drow males weren't all that appealing.
WAS - sexist
-Still is. As evidenced by Storm of the Dead, priestess' of Eilistraee still feel that males should not be included in the amalgamation of the orders, because they are male Darkmasks. This is sexist. Darkmasks still believe that priestess' of Eilistraee are weak. This is sexist.
Praise Jebuz! Howaywooya!
Thank you.
-Um...You're welcome...?
Originally Posted by Lord Karsus
-Um...You're welcome...?
Uh...yeah. Sorry, man. Sometimes the religious zeal of my male dominant religion takes hold and i just have to get down on my bad self.
My point was that I agreed.
Uh...yeah. Sorry, man. Sometimes the religious zeal of my male dominant religion takes hold and i just have to get down on my bad self.
My point was that I agreed.
-Oh, oh, gotcha. I thought you attmpting to mock me, based on my "astute" observations.
Originally Posted by Lord Karsus
-Oh, oh, gotcha. I thought you attmpting to mock me, based on my "astute" observations.
Not at all. Your "astute" observations are one of the things that led me to contribute my own observations to this board. As worthless as they may be at most times.
Either way, I don't mock much--just tend to get over eccentric sometimes. As is, I agree with you that Eilistraee's religion is sexist. And I was almost OK with that at one time, 'cause I thought they were going to create a decent storyline, progress her power and have her go head-to-head with Lloth, but it appears that isn't the case anymore. At least, not with the mention of her followers being wiped out (i.e. the good ones). Now it just seems she was a good version of the bad.
Then again--who knows?
-It has plenty of RSEs, if you want to keep on top of all of that. But, as sources to draw meaningful lore from, and even as books themselves, I really don't reccomend them.
Sexist: Pertaining to, involving, or fostering sexism.
Sexism: Discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities.
-The Church of Eilistraee is sexist.
Sexist is a bit heavy of a word - they are very much for the egality and all, albeit there is the pragmatic issue of the drow conservatism; power to the females and all that, as such resistance based on the change.
It's a difficult issue for them.
Originally posted by Ubbergeek
Sexist is a bit heavy of a word - they are very much for the egality and all, albeit there is the pragmatic issue of the drow conservatism; power to the females and all that, as such resistance based on the change.
It's a difficult issue for them.
I'm not so sure. War of the Spider Queen hinted at a bit of sexism with Eilistraee's follower's toward Ryld (a male). Perhaps this is because they knew he followed Llloth, I'm not sure. I do know that they didn't have any males with them prior to his arrival.
Then again, it has been a while since read it.
It could be combinaison of a pervasive lolthian sexist conservatism (who grew inate to every common drow, like our relations toward judeo-christian valors) and the reaction to Vauerun (who don't strike to me as so much egalitarian).... Well, there is degrees in those things. And/or a mortal clergy vs credos and decentralised, localised cults credos and absence of unified one issues, like in many religions, real or imaginated.
Wasn't there some quotes as saying they allow male priests now, albeit perhaps with a temporary 'genders switching' ceremony en vogue (to allow better understanding of the feminine side of things)?
Originally posted by Ubbergeek
It is to note - CN is an allowed alignement for priestresses, and lays are of course laxer. As good is also not meaning goody two shoes always...
It could be combinaison of a pervasive lolthian sexist conservatism (who grew inate to every common drow, like our relations toward judeo-christian valors) and the reaction to Vauerun (who don't strike to me as so much egalitarian).... Well, there is degrees in those things. And/or a mortal clergy vs credos and decentralised, localised cults credos and absence of unified one issues, like in many religions, real or imaginated.
Wasn't there some quotes as saying they allow male priests now, albeit perhaps with a temporary 'genders switching' ceremony en vogue (to allow better understanding of the feminine side of things)?
Yeah! What he said.
In other words: "I don't understand it, so I don't agree."
-Of course. Drizzt is anything but omniscient. Now tie this, however, to the recent Lady Penitent Trilogy.
Well, guess we will find out the details when the 3rd book is released in june
no, it states that their reason is to avoid becoming drow.
from Blackstaff:
"Know there are yet sharn in the Realms. There are those of Miyeritar who would become dhaerow with the the Corellon's Descent, should they become n'fhaorn'quessir. They choose to remain as Rhymanthiin's defenders as well as defenders against corrupt magic across the Realms."
They choose, no implied duties. And as far as the stigma, they would be heroes in the hidden city, regardless of their being drow, and the sharn would be aware of good drow surviving on the surface, so there must be an alignment shift involved (it may just open them to corruption).
The descent of the drow is one of the worst aspects of D&D, it should have been eliminated years ago. It serves no real purpose other than to give us a group of elves that are evil and easily identified.
The Anti-Seldarine could corrupt individual elves and establish groups of them without needing to differentiate them physically from the other elves. Imagine if a particular group of humans were singled out for their skin color and not just their behavior (oh wait...)
Personally, I'm a big fan of the Drow Descent into the Underdark story. It openly demonstrates the consequences of a civilization that turns its back on the traditional gods of the land in favor of debauched evil ways. I'm just amazed D&D, of all things, would inject real world life lessons into its game in such a vivid way. For example: When the Israelites turned their back on God, He scattered them throughout the world as punishment. In this context Bhaal would be the equivelent of Lolth. I see this as a direct correlation. (Please don't flame me for using this as an example, This comes from the Bible and not as scientific fact...)
Personally, I'm a big fan of the Drow Descent into the Underdark story. It openly demonstrates the consequences of a civilization that turns its back on the traditional gods of the land in favor of debauched evil ways. I'm just amazed D&D, of all things, would inject real world life lessons into its game in such a vivid way. For example: When the Israelites turned their back on God, He scattered them throughout the world as punishment. In this context Bhaal would be the equivelent of Lolth. I see this as a direct correlation. (Please don't flame me for using this as an example, This comes from the Bible and not as scientific fact...)
Fantasy is a great way to explore man's relationship with the divine, since the divine is so much more visible in fantasy. It also gets around people's pre-conceived assumptions about religion, which allows you to say something and be heard where in another context saying it would lead to conflict and rejection. Of course, this is true about a great many other topics as well. The drow are a great way to examine sexism, especially since it gives men a chance to experience it first hand.
Sexist is a bit heavy of a word - they are very much for the egality and all, albeit there is the pragmatic issue of the drow conservatism; power to the females and all that, as such resistance based on the change.
It's a difficult issue for them.
-A definition is a definition, and the definition fits, regardless of social patterns. Slavery is "bad". At the time it was fully legal in the United Kingdom, in the United States, and everywhere else, it was socially acceptable. But, it was still "bad".
Well, guess we will find out the details when the 3rd book is released in june
-Perhaps, perhaps not.
Sexist: Pertaining to, involving, or fostering sexism.
Sexism: Discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities.
-The Church of Eilistraee is sexist.
Maybe it is just me but I just don't consider a gods choice between in this matter as sexist. Who knows maybe there wasn't a choice to be made here?
I also don't find being a cleric just a job or a means to power. It is a calling maybe men just don't feel the calling strong enough to be able to be clerics. Men and women are different after all to think otherwise is foolish. In other words men don't suffer for not being able to be cleric in the faith...or at they very least shouldn't according to it's doctrine. Actualy in alot of temple portrayed men do hold position of powers.
Also I tend not to read the novels because of their interpertations of x.
But I also disagree strongly that Elistraee's brother relgion isn't sexist at all...it is actualy alot more sexist then Eilistraee.
Maybe it is just me but I just don't consider a gods choice between in this matter as sexist. Who knows maybe there wasn't a choice to be made here?
-I didn't say that Eilistraee is sexist. I said her Church is sexist. Eilistraee might be very against the current (disregarding the Lady Penitent changes) set up of things, but doesn't want to challenge tradition, for all we know.
I also don't find being a cleric just a job or a means to power. It is a calling maybe men just don't feel the calling strong enough to be able to be clerics.
-That's a weak excuse, not for nothing. Not only is there no "substance", for a lack of better words, as nothing in canon substantiates it, but there are plenty of other male Clerics out there in the world, demonstrating that men do indeed "feel the calling". Men who want to go into the service of Eilistraee, don't forget, need to polymorph themselves into women. Again, that doesn't bode very well for Eilistraee's church.
But I also disagree strongly that Elistraee's brother relgion isn't sexist at all...it is actualy alot more sexist then Eilistraee.
-Vhaeraun's church is just as sexist as Eilistraee's. Vhaeraun himself is probably more sexist than Eilistraee herself, since his dogma seems to paint women in a negative view, as if they simply exist to ensure the repopulation of Vhaeraun's servants.
-I didn't say that Eilistraee is sexist. I said her Church is sexist. Eilistraee might be very against the current (disregarding the Lady Penitent changes) set up of things, but doesn't want to challenge tradition, for all we know.
Except one thing she doesn't grant spells to men....also who do you think set the traditions in the 1st place.
-That's a weak excuse, not for nothing. Not only is there no "substance", for a lack of better words, as nothing in canon substantiates it, but there are plenty of other male Clerics out there in the world, demonstrating that men do indeed "feel the calling". Men who want to go into the service of Eilistraee, don't forget, need to polymorph themselves into women. Again, that doesn't bode very well for Eilistraee's church.
Um...I disagree with you on how somebody becomes a cleric I guess. I don't see somebody saying," I am going to become a cleric which god should I pick?" It is more like," X god/goddess represents how I feel(or believe etc.) how can I better serve them?"
And no I don't forget what a man has to go though...though I generaly ignore it in my FR. Generaly thinking of it has badly thought out.
-Vhaeraun's church is just as sexist as Eilistraee's. Vhaeraun himself is probably more sexist than Eilistraee herself, since his dogma seems to paint women in a negative view, as if they simply exist to ensure the repopulation of Vhaeraun's servants.
Again I think the gods are a little more responsible for the shaping of their religion.
But let me ask you this is a homosexual or hetrosexual sexist?
Except one thing she doesn't grant spells to men....also who do you think set the traditions in the 1st place.
Um...I disagree with you on how somebody becomes a cleric I guess. I don't see somebody saying," I am going to become a cleric which god should I pick?" It is more like," X god/goddess represents how I feel(or believe etc.) how can I better serve them?"
And no I don't forget what a man has to go though...though I generaly ignore it in my FR. Generaly thinking of it has badly thought out.
Wow.... relax, it's just a game. There could be (and most likely is) more then one way to skin a cat.
Again I think the gods are a little more responsible for the shaping of their religion.
But let me ask you this is a homosexual or hetrosexual sexist?
3 things here;
1) See above,
2) this last question isn't something that should be brought up on these forums and
3) to answer said inappropriate question, they could be and they might not be. Not that that matters.
Except one thing she doesn't grant spells to men....also who do you think set the traditions in the 1st place.
-She does grant spells to men, who polymorph themselves into women, to become Clerics.
-As for who set the traditions...The high priestess' of the faith, of course. Christianity worships G-d as a Truine deity, with three aspects, one of which was Jesus. Who founded the traditions and tenets of Christianity? Jesus? No. His followers? Yes. Who founded the traditions and tenets of the Eilistraeean faith? Eilistraee? No. Her followers? Yes.
Um...I disagree with you on how somebody becomes a cleric I guess. I don't see somebody saying," I am going to become a cleric which god should I pick?" It is more like," X god/goddess represents how I feel(or believe etc.) how can I better serve them?"
-You made a blanket statement that claimed that men "don't feel the calling strong enough to be able to be clerics". As I stated, this is untrue. There exist male Clerics of multiple other deities. Thus, men are "feel the calling". There are men who become Clerics of Eilistraee. Thus, they feel the calling. However, in order to finish their initiation, they need to become women. It's not that, being men, they cannot feel the call strong enough.
And no I don't forget what a man has to go though...though I generaly ignore it in my FR. Generaly thinking of it has badly thought out.
-I think it is poorly thought out as well. That said, it IS canon.
Again I think the gods are a little more responsible for the shaping of their religion.
-I never said a deity has no control over what his/her/its church does. That said, a deity needs his/her/its worshippers. They fuel him/her/it, for a lack of better terms. If her worshippers want a church where women have full stewardship over it, Eilistraee is going to give her de facto approval.
But let me ask you this is a homosexual or hetrosexual sexist?
-The existence of sexism isn't dependent on the sexual orientation of an individual. Someone can be male, be gay, and institute policies that are against women, making the policies sexist. Likewise, that same person can institute policies that are against men, which still makes the policies sexist. The definition, as I cited, simply an action that discriminates and/or devaluates an individual, based on that person's sex. This is quite clearly what is happening in this case.
-The existence of sexism isn't dependent on the sexual orientation of an individual. Someone can be male, be gay, and institute policies that are against women, making the policies sexist. Likewise, that same person can institute policies that are against men, which still makes the policies sexist. The definition, as I cited, simply an action that discriminates and/or devaluates an individual, based on that person's sex. This is quite clearly what is happening in this case.
Actualy a person who is anything but Bi-sexual does discriminate against a certain sex. Though I wouldn't call it neccessary a bad thing and there is nothing wrong with it.
Maybe certain gods just are different in who can draw on their divine power...it certainly seems true with the fact that men can access her power by becoming women...maybe it is in fact biological(or whatever it is about gods) in nature...and when she absorbed her brother(which I really hate about cannon them turning the gods into Highlanders) she was able to to answear prays made by men. They were better ways to deal with this then some author's PC attitudes.
Which is why I almost never consider the novels canon. More like a very inaccurate represention of facts...
Wow.... relax, it's just a game. There could be (and most likely is) more then one way to skin a cat.
3 things here;
1) See above,
2) this last question isn't something that should be brought up on these forums and
3) to answer said inappropriate question, they could be and they might not be. Not that that matters.
Wow I am relax it is mostly a philosphical question. Sorry but I like interesting ideas and discussions about D&D. Also I brought the question that seemed to offend you so much to make a point. Which is men and women are different. And with deityies and actual divine magic things might work very differently....That is all. So I suggest you relax just a little.
Actualy a person who is anything but Bi-sexual does discriminate against a certain sex. Though I wouldn't call it neccessary a bad thing and there is nothing wrong with it.
-If by being discriminating, you are alluding to being attracted to one sex or the other. Otherwise, I'm not following you. A girl can be attracted to a man, and yet institute sexist policies where she works against men. She can also be attracted to a man, and institute sexist policies against women as well.
Maybe certain gods just are different in who can draw on their divine power...it certainly seems true with the fact that men can access her power by becoming women...maybe it is in fact biological(or whatever it is about gods) in nature...and when she absorbed her brother...she was able to to answear prays made by men.
-As I stated before, there is no canon anywhere, in any book- novel or sourcebook- that states anything to that effect, and, no offense, but I find that a rather silly hypothesis. And, to counter that, men who polymorph themselves into women are still men, in their essence/spirit/soul/incarnum/whatever. So, while their outward appearence is changing, that's all. The thinking thing, to quote Descartes, is still a man.
-If by being discriminating, you are alluding to being attracted to one sex or the other. Otherwise, I'm not following you. A girl can be attracted to a man, and yet institute sexist policies where she works against men. She can also be attracted to a man, and institute sexist policies against women as well.
There is nothing in your defination of sexist that as anything to do with setting policies. Since I have no power to set policies either politcaly or anyplace else I can't be sexist. I really don't get this line of reasoning.
-As I stated before, there is no canon anywhere, in any book- novel or sourcebook- that states anything to that effect, and, no offense, but I find that a rather silly hypothesis. And, to counter that, men who polymorph themselves into women are still men, in their essence/spirit/soul/incarnum/whatever. So, while their outward appearence is changing, that's all. The thinking thing, to quote Descartes, is still a man.
Why is it so silly? I mean first we are talking about a world with lots of sentient races, where magic works etc., where the gods have a direct impact. Why is it so silly to think that certain gods might be keyed to the difference between men and women? Like certain people are attracted to certain sexes. I mean there are difference between men and women right?
I am not offended by you thinking it silly. That is your right after all. And really I am just putting out thoughts...sometimes I don't truely believe in everything I type I just like to debate.
There is nothing in your defination of sexist that as anything to do with setting policies. Since I have no power to set policies either politcaly or anyplace else I can't be sexist. I really don't get this line of reasoning.
-The definition of sexist is simply, "Pertaining to, involving, or fostering sexism", where sexism is defined as, "Discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex".
-Does the Church of Eilistraee foster sexism? Well, they do prevent males the opportunity to become Clerics, simply because of their gender. That clearly fits the criteria of "Discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex".
Why is it so silly? I mean first we are talking about a world with lots of sentient races, where magic works etc., where the gods have a direct impact. Why is it so silly to think that certain gods might be keyed to the difference between men and women?
-Like I said, there is no canon anywhere to substantiate that line of thinking. The fact that Eilistraee does allow male Clerics, when they are in the form of women, demonstrates that men indeed "feel the calling" of Eilistraee. As I said before, a man in the form of a woman is still a man underneath.
-The definition of sexist is simply, "Pertaining to, involving, or fostering sexism", where sexism is defined as, "Discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex".
-Does the Church of Eilistraee foster sexism? Well, they do prevent males the opportunity to become Clerics, simply because of their gender. That clearly fits the criteria of "Discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex".
And all I am doing is suggestion a alternative idea of why it isn't sexist.
-Like I said, there is no canon anywhere to substantiate that line of thinking. The fact that Eilistraee does allow male Clerics, when they are in the form of women, demonstrates that men indeed "feel the calling" of Eilistraee. As I said before, a man in the form of a woman is still a man underneath.
Also where is this canon souce? About a man becoming a cleric of Eilistraee by becoming a woman? I found nothing in canon to dispute my line of thinking. Except for some characters in novels...which sure some members of Eilistraee faith might be sexist...
Also the whole thing about being a man underneath line...well there are some transgender people out there who would argue that they are really the opposite sex underneath so who to say that those men who feel the calling do in fact consider themselves men?
Is there a canon souce where this happened to a particular character?
Personaly I don't mind the fact that Eilistraee now accept male clerics I just think it was dumb the way they did...the whole Highlander like absorption of a sexist male evil god...makes no sense.
And all I am doing is suggestion a alternative idea of why it isn't sexist.
-Yes, I see that. That said, it doesn't work. The definition of sexist/sexism is very clear, and it clearly fits with the Church of Eilistraee.
Also where is this canon souce? About a man becoming a cleric of Eilistraee by becoming a woman?
-Ed's replies at Candlekeep. Males can become Clerics of Eilistraee, but they must perform a dance, I believe it is, that transforms them physically from a man to a woman.
Also the whole thing about being a man underneath line...well there are some transgender people out there who would argue that they are really the opposite sex underneath so who to say that those men who feel the calling do in fact consider themselves men?
-Transgender people feel they are the opposite gender underneath, not sex. Gender pertains to the "mental/personality characteristics" that label a person a man or a woman. Sex pertains to the physical..."tools" they have at their disposal. To clear things up for everybody.
-That said, I am sure that there are people who feel this way, who become Clerics of Eilistraee. The concept of what I am saying still applies, however. Physically, the thinking thing that becomes a Cleric started out a male.
Personaly I don't mind the fact that Eilistraee now accept male clerics I just think it was dumb the way they did...
-I agree on the first point, but not the second. At least, when you apply the hypothesis that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are only temporarily "teaming up" to defeat their mother. Otherwise, no, not really, it's silly what happened. Impossible going by canon, as well.
-Ed's replies at Candlekeep. Males can become Clerics of Eilistraee, but they must perform a dance, I believe it is, that transforms them physically from a man to a woman.
As far as I knew Ed's words or candlekeep aren't considered canon. Not saying this is a good thing or not. Has this changed? Is the shadow weave going to but in the way Ed has it? Or other things that Ed has said that they have gone against?
As far as I knew Ed's words or candlekeep aren't considered canon. Not saying this is a good thing or not. Has this changed? Is the shadow weave going to but in the way Ed has it? Or other things that Ed has said that they have gone against?
-It has always been that anything Ed Greenwood says, so long as it does not contradict anything that is published, is canon. So, for instance, Ed talking about the mating rituals of the Aminian Horned Scarlet Toad (Making that one up) is canon. If the sourcebooks Toads and Frogs of the Realms is published, and says something other than what Ed Greenwood said, the published book takes precidence over what he says.
-That said, I hope you are proud of yourself: As I was scrolling down to read your message, I threw up. I blame you for that. :P
'Cause I tell you people, I was scared for a bit that we might suffer some "I'm-not-sexual-orientated-or-bias-or-male-or-female" wrath there.
Whew...gender among the Gods almost sux.
Unless she's diggin' on me, rather than the El'.
Oh...and almost forgot: Toads. hehehehe....
Is it over? Can we come out now?
-No. Go back in your hole.
:P
Whew...gender among the Gods almost sux.
-Technically, deities don't even have genders. They are masses of deific energy/incarnum/spiritstuff/whatever...
-It has always been that anything Ed Greenwood says, so long as it does not contradict anything that is published, is canon. So, for instance, Ed talking about the mating rituals of the Aminian Horned Scarlet Toad (Making that one up) is canon. If the sourcebooks Toads and Frogs of the Realms is published, and says something other than what Ed Greenwood said, the published book takes precidence over what he says.
-That said, I hope you are proud of yourself: As I was scrolling down to read your message, I threw up. I blame you for that. :P
Sorry how can a souce that is...not mainstream like Candle keep be considered canon? What is the percentage of FR fans that even have access?
You threw up due to the conservation or just because of something else? I am sorry.
Is it over? Can we come out now?
'Cause I tell you people, I was scared for a bit that we might suffer some "I'm-not-sexual-orientated-or-bias-or-male-or-female" wrath there.
Whew...gender among the Gods almost sux.
Unless she's diggin' on me, rather than the El'.
Oh...and almost forgot: Toads. hehehehe....
Sheesh no one can have a debate it seems.
-Technically, deities don't even have genders. They are masses of deific energy/incarnum/spiritstuff/whatever...
Where is this supported in canon? And Not Ed Greenwood doesn't count as the concept of deities in D&D goes beyond his FR.
Sorry how can a souce that is...not mainstream like Candle keep be considered canon? What is the percentage of FR fans that even have access?
-Don't know the percentage, but that's how it is. I am fairly sure that his contract has always been like that, unless recently (in which I still mean going back a few years), he signed a new one with this clause.
You threw up due to the conservation or just because of something else? I am sorry.
-For a seperate reason, but it is always easy to blame others, thus I blamed you for it.
Where is this supported in canon?
-Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad. Deities themselves don't have actual "physical" forms.
Sorry how can a souce that is...not mainstream like Candle keep be considered canon? What is the percentage of FR fans that even have access?
It's impossible to say how many FR fans have access, but it's certainly a small percentage. But I'd bet that most of the canon lawyers have Candlekeep access... they have to, such that they can gripe about canon whenever presented with a campaign with a lot of customization.
-Technically, deities don't even have genders. They are masses of deific energy/incarnum/spiritstuff/whatever...
Always so technical. Yet many of them feel inclined to manifest their deific energy/incarnum/spiritstuff into that of a gender based persona.
And how could El' get freaky with Mystra if she (it) didn't at least get into the role of playing the opposite gender.
And lets not forget the Midnight to Mystra thing. If Ao promoted you to godhood (and no, Karsus, it really hasn't happened yet) would you so easily drop your masculinity and go fembot?
Icky.
And, yes, johnkretzer, debate all you want. I'll just have no time to attend the Democratic convention this year. ;)
Always so technical. Yet many of them feel inclined to manifest their deific energy/incarnum/spiritstuff into that of a gender based persona.
-Two reasons, both somewhat related:
1) A deity takes the form that his/her/it's worshippers ascribe to him/her/it. If Mystra is worshipped by Sarrukh, it is likely that they see her as a Sarrukh. If she is worshipped by a Tabotan farmer, it is likely they see her as Tabotan. If she is worshipped by a Chultan explorer, it is likely they see her as Chultan. If she is worshipped by a Calashite mage, it is likely they see her as Calashite. And so on, and so forth. This is one of the reasons why the designers are merging Human deities with Demihuman deities that are similar. Their reasoning is that, using Selûne and Sehanine Moonbow as examples, Selûne is the form and name Humans acribe to the goddess, and Sehanine Moonbow is the form and name Elves ascribe to the goddess. Thus, a kindly woman makes sense for a nurturing deity like Chauntea.
2) A deity takes on a specific form to better associate with his/her/it's worshippers. Mystra is primarily worshipped by Humans, thus she takes the guise of a Human. Corellon Larethian is primarily worshipped by Elves, thus s/he takes the guise of an Elf. And, because they do this, they invariably need to choose a sex to appear as.
And how could El' get freaky with Mystra if she (it) didn't at least get into the role of playing the opposite gender.
-Asides for being metaphorical, which is how I view it, Mystra is a goddess after all, and can do this via an avatar, if you want to be literal.
And lets not forget the Midnight to Mystra thing. If Ao promoted you to godhood (and no, Karsus, it really hasn't happened yet) would you so easily drop your masculinity and go fembot?
-I would no longer have a mortal form, thus I wouldn't have a physical sex anymore. I'd have an essence that has masculine tendencies, but I wouldn't have a physical sex.
And, yes, johnkretzer, debate all you want. I'll just have no time to attend the Democratic convention this year. ;)
-You'd probably be doing yourself a favor. Political bias towards Democrats aside, I'd never want to go to a political rally.
-Two reasons, both somewhat related:
1) A deity takes the form that his/her/it's worshippers ascribe to him/her/it. If Mystra is worshipped by Sarrukh, it is likely that they see her as a Sarrukh. If she is worshipped by a Tabotan farmer, it is likely they see her as Tabotan. If she is worshipped by a Chultan explorer, it is likely they see her as Chultan. If she is worshipped by a Calashite mage, it is likely they see her as Calashite. And so on, and so forth. This is one of the reasons why the designers are merging Human deities with Demihuman deities that are similar. Their reasoning is that, using Selûne and Sehanine Moonbow as examples, Selûne is the form and name Humans acribe to the goddess, and Sehanine Moonbow is the form and name Elves ascribe to the goddess. Thus, a kindly woman makes sense for a nurturing deity like Chauntea.
2) A deity takes on a specific form to better associate with his/her/it's worshippers. Mystra is primarily worshipped by Humans, thus she takes the guise of a Human. Corellon Larethian is primarily worshipped by Elves, thus s/he takes the guise of an Elf. And, because they do this, they invariably need to choose a sex to appear as.
I concede your points on this, but...
-Asides for being metaphorical, which is how I view it, Mystra is a goddess after all, and can do this via an avatar, if you want to be literal.
Of course, she can do this as an avatar. But as to why she would...
-I would no longer have a mortal form, thus I wouldn't have a physical sex anymore. I'd have an essence that has masculine tendencies, but I wouldn't have a physical sex.
To get technical, the definition of the word female includes: of or characteristic of a girl or woman; feminine The male definition is the same, but in opposite.
Therefore, any singular entity with tendencies or characteristics leaning toward one or the other, would technically be considered of that gender--physical characteristics or species need not apply.
I mean, gods fall into the categories of good and evil. They can also be neutral. So why can't they fall into the categories of male and female, as well as have a few that are asexual?.
-You'd probably be doing yourself a favor. Political bias towards Democrats aside, I'd never want to go to a political rally.
Now I know why I see red every time you pop up. :D
Of course, she can do this as an avatar. But as to why she would...
-Everyone has needs?
To get technical, the definition of the word female includes: of or characteristic of a girl or woman; feminine The male definition is the same, but in opposite.
Therefore, any singular entity with tendencies or characteristics leaning toward one or the other, would technically be considered of that gender--physical characteristics or species need not apply.
I mean, gods fall into the categories of good and evil. They can also be neutral. So why can't they fall into the categories of male and female, as well as have a few that are asexual?.
-The clinical definition of sex has to do with anatomical connotations, as has been already discussed. The clinical definition of gender has to do with psychological connotations, as has already been discussed. That said, deities don't have physical bodies. They don't have anatomies. Thusly, deities do not have sexes. They can have genders, if they want to, as deities are thinking things, and nothing really more.
Now I know why I see red every time you pop up. :D
-I am more purple, myself, as I sit where the red and the blue begin meeting. A little to the right side of that, but purple nonetheless.
-Everyone has needs?
-The clinical definition of sex has to do with anatomical connotations, as has been already discussed. The clinical definition of gender has to do with psychological connotations, as has already been discussed. That said, deities don't have physical bodies. They don't have anatomies. Thusly, deities do not have sexes. They can have genders, if they want to, as deities are thinking things, and nothing really more.
I never mentioned sex--I always spoke gender and specifically to its application to gods. If this was discussed, then my apologies--the lengthy back-n-forth between you and Johnny probably helped it get lost on me.
So I guess this in now a moot point.
-I am more purple, myself, as I sit where the red and the blue begin meeting. A little to the right side of that, but purple nonetheless.
Same here, but a little on the left. Maybe there is a chance for middle ground after all. ;)
So I guess this in now a moot point.
-Not a moot point, but, there's no reason to beat a dead horse.
-Not a moot point, but, there's no reason to beat a dead horse.
Oh, PUH-leaze! Have you read some of the posts around here? Don't make me the poster boy for redundancy quite yet.
Oh, PUH-leaze! Have you read some of the posts around here?
-Actually, no, no I haven't. Could you give me a brief run-down on things?
-Actually, no, no I haven't. Could you give me a brief run-down on things?
Sorry. Thats already been posted. No sense beating a dead horse. ;)
Sorry. Thats already been posted. No sense beating a dead horse. ;)
-It brings me a sense of joy to see you catch on so quickly.
-Ed's replies at Candlekeep. Males can become Clerics of Eilistraee, but they must perform a dance, I believe it is, that transforms them physically from a man to a woman.
I've searched around at Candlekeep for this supposed transgendering ritual, and couldn't find it - using a variety of fairly open search terms. I think perhaps before moving on, you should cite the source for this.
I'm not saying that it isn't true... but it seems like a pretty odd requirement for Eilistraee to impose. It'd just make way more sense to say "she doesn't call male priests" or that "her female priests don't accept male priests for training", or something along those lines.
It's dated Nov 5th-6th of 2006.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5812&whichpage=67
Scroll down near the bottom for Nov 5th's and 6th's answer, posted for Ed by "The Hooded One".
Interestingly, Ed does relate that Eilistraee's worship was exclusive to females throughout 1E and 2E, and it states that she's "opened up" and become more inclusive in 3E for males. As such, males must do this "changedance" and spend time as a female (particularly for female-only rituals), which suggests that there's something specific to the biology of being a female that connects one with Eilistraee.
However, it's apparently not all the time - males can go back to being male, but at least for the period of 3E they'd need to spend some time as a female "each day" (with more and more time if they want to ascend in the clegy). Also, there are still restrictions in 3E about only females being Sword-dancers (and presumably the other prestige classes reserved for females).
Perhaps the most interesting piece, though, is that the answer ends with Ed wants to say more on the subject but "but future plans (and NDAs) prevent". Looking at this 2006 answer from the perspective of 2008, it's likely that this refers to the changes brought about by the recent series about Lolth - and the even more recent "Lady Penitent" series.
In the "Lady Penitent" series, at least so far, we now have the church of Eilistraee functionally absorbing the priesthood of (now-dead) Vhaeraun and at least one of these male priests starts to take part in ritual dances as a male. So perhaps Ed's answer suffices for the majority of 3E, and is meant by Eilistraee as a slow introduction of males back into the profession of priesthood. It will be interesting to see what happens in the third book of Penitent.
Looking at this 2006 answer from the perspective of 2008, it's likely that this refers to the changes brought about by the recent series about Lolth - and the even more recent "Lady Penitent" series.
-Probably. The Storm of the Dead certainly goes into some detail about the changes in Eilistraee's clergy, and the upheaval that is going on from absorbing Vhaeraun's church.
Thanks...
I have yet to hear of or find this Lady Penitent series. May I ask who it is written by? Might help me track it down.
Thanks...
Lady Penitent trilogy
by Lisa Smedman
Book 1: Sacrifice of the Widow (Feb 07)
Book 2: Storm of the Dead (Aug 07)
Book 3: Ascendancy of the Last (estimated June 08)
Lady Penitent trilogy
by Lisa Smedman
Book 1: Sacrifice of the Widow (Feb 07)
Book 2: Storm of the Dead (Aug 07)
Book 3: Ascendancy of the Last (estimated June 08)
Sweet Jabeebuz! SMEDMAN?!
Gug. Fine.
Thanks, Daenaan. Do appreciate.
Book 3: Ascendancy of the Last (estimated June 08)
-It is likely that Ascendancy of the Last is going to be pushed back. The last novel in Paul Kemp's Twilight War trilogy should have already been released, and instead, it was pushed back to December. When asked, he said it was likely because of the pending release of 4e, to give everyone a little to "let the dust settle". Since Ascendancy of the Last's release date is even closer to 4e, I wouldn't be surprised if this happens again.
Sweet Jabeebuz! SMEDMAN?!
Gug. Fine.
Thanks, Daenaan. Do appreciate.
Sure thing.
I've really enjoyed the first two books. I'm not real crazy about the male wizard character, but I like the others. And I like her writing style, the pacing, the conflict of a changing clergy. I'd recommend it.-It is likely that Ascendancy of the Last is going to be pushed back. The last novel in Paul Kemp's Twilight War trilogy should have already been released, and instead, it was pushed back to December. When asked, he said it was likely because of the pending release of 4e, to give everyone a little to "let the dust settle". Since Ascendancy of the Last's release date is even closer to 4e, I wouldn't be surprised if this happens again.
What!? What!?
You speak of a Kemp event and don't let me know?
Damn you, man! Damn you to stale beer!
Where's this? Who's screwin with PK?
What!? What!?...Where's this?
-His thread.
Who's screwin with PK?
-If you want to take it as screwing with him, then WotC. It is very annoying, I agree, but when you think about it, it makes sense. This way, it won't be overshadowed, or ignored by the impending arrival of 4e.
For once, I am completely agreed with you--deliver the ten plagues again!!!
WotC CANNOT stop Kemp from delivering.
I'll pull up at least one plague, alone, to kick them in the rump.
Stupid buttards!!!
Drizzt just needs to die in the Spellplague ...
I wish peoples would cut down the hatin' on him. try imagining to be in HIS boots - you are at best misstrusted, at worst.... He have the right to be 'angsty', in a way. And as quoted, he mind his business and Do The Right Thing. (And is actualy, stats-wise, not very OP.)
One wonder if the thing is that a certain reluctance from (male) authors from writting on things like the potential nude male dancers and the openess to alternative male lifestiles a fully open eilistrean clergy would have logicaly.
I say... Bring that on. It's fairness to both sides - and girls deserve hot and sparsely clothed dancing drow too. ;)
I wish peoples would cut down the hatin' on him. try imagining to be in HIS boots - you are at best misstrusted, at worst.... He have the right to be 'angsty', in a way. And as quoted, he mind his business and Do The Right Thing. (And is actualy, stats-wise, not very OP.)
I agree...uh, to a degree.
Drizzt, I don't believe can be even close to considered a over powerful NPC. He has sixteen character levels--albeit, with a few quirks. So what?--its what makes him a unique character. And its not like he jaunts around the world spoiling plots and saving cities, he simply gets into some big crap with his friends.
As for the character himself getting sappy and sentimental over the years, I think you may see that change soon enough. RAS has always tried to keep Drizzt as a depth character, rather than just a hack and slash icon that can visit any FR novel. It's why he is who he is.
Everyone dies. Drizzt gets resentful. The hunter returns with added fun.
Kill! Kill! Kill!
I wish peoples would cut down the hatin' on him. try imagining to be in HIS boots - you are at best misstrusted, at worst.... He have the right to be 'angsty', in a way. And as quoted, he mind his business and Do The Right Thing. (And is actualy, stats-wise, not very OP.)
One wonder if the thing is that a certain reluctance from (male) authors from writting on things like the potential nude male dancers and the openess to alternative male lifestiles a fully open eilistrean clergy would have logicaly.
I say... Bring that on. It's fairness to both sides - and girls deserve hot and sparsely clothed dancing drow too. ;)
Yes! Down with Sexism! Up with equal rights for the Sexes! :fight!:
Also the PRC for the male drow of eilistraee, don't they get some spells per day? If they do I would assume it's Eilistraee giving them the divine power.
Also the PRC for the male drow of eilistraee, don't they get some spells per day?
-There is no PrC specifically for male lay worshippers of Eilistraee, as far as I am aware.
-There is no PrC specifically for male lay worshippers of Eilistraee, as far as I am aware.
"Lay worshipper" in game terms probably just means something along the lines of "patron deity" for non-clerics. You might have a wizard who worships Sune, and does some nice RP things around that, but there aren't any specific benefits apart from going to Sune's plane when that PC bites it. That's how I'd take it, anyway.
"Lay worshipper" in game terms probably just means something along the lines of "patron deity" for non-clerics.
-That is correct. That poster alluded to a male Drow-Eilistraee specific PrC when saying "male drow of eilistraee". A male Drow worshipping Eilistraee could theoretically become an Arcane Devotee, but I wouldn't consider that, as the poster said, "the PRC for the male drow of eilistraee". That PrC is just a generic one.
It was a PrC in a Dragon magazine... I cant remember the issue or name now.
-How wonderful. Recent? Old? What?
-How wonderful. Recent? Old? What?
:heehee
Not sure, was about a year before it was canned I think.
Nothin' personal, but if you came up to me with "I can't remember the issue or name" and wanted to play it in my campaign, I'd say, "Get the
out of my house."If you can't provide me with legal documentation, then you don't get a proper passport.
I'm not saying I believe you or disbelieve you, but you could quite easily have misinterpreted what you read. Especially if it was over a year ago. Its only fair to the other players.
Nothin' personal, but if you came up to me with "I can't remember the issue or name" and wanted to play it in my campaign, I'd say, "Get the
If you can't provide me with legal documentation, then you don't get a proper passport.
-Yeah...I'll wait until the PrC is properly identified by DRdrizzt before continuing down this path.
::EDIT::
Found the name and issue on an old thread here
The Silverhair Knight issue 315.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=806092
::EDIT#2::
link with the abilities and progression
http://drowcampaign.roleplaynexus.com/prestigesilverhairknight.html
wow... that was a reasonable response....
Wasn't trying to be a jerk, my man--just saying that if you don't have all the facts straight and can't provide the facts to me, as a DM, then it couldn't fly in my campaign.
My apologies if I came off rude and arrogant. I wouldn't do that. We all know that is Karsus's domain.
Yeah, baby!
