Am I the only one to wonder what would be the stat block for Elminster in 4e. Well, what I found great about 3e was that Elminster could be "real", that is known that he as developed as a Fighter, rogue, cleric and Wizard.
But in 4e, since multiclassing is so limiting, how will they represent is multiclassing ? Seems he would look like in 1e and 2e, that is not representative of the description in Elminter: Making of a mage.
what do you think ?
Just because a character doesn;'t have specuific stats or powers doesn't mean a different character.
Besdies, in 4thg ed it is fairly easy to make a full wizard that knows how to swing a sword and pick locks. Just allocate a few feats, and presto.
Gomez
Though he won't be.
-- George Krashos
-Rich Baker has mentioned that Elminster's stats in 4e, along with most other "famous" NPCs, are going to be extremely minimal.
Indeed, and I'm actually pretty thankful for that.
Indeed, and I'm actually pretty thankful for that.
I agree. I never really looked at them to tell you the truth
I guess you'll have to play in a 3e game, Mula, if you want to kill the old codger. :P
Will he be artillery or controller?
-Airborne.
But I wanna kill Elminster!
-WotC will take your books away if you try. If you haven't noticed, they all have built-in explosive devices.
Once a character reaches 30th level, they effectively "finish" the game and can't play any more. They gain immortality, become god, go into deep seclusion to study magic and eventually fade away. However they do it, they have no more mechanical effect on the world.
Perfect way to shut up the complainers and get rid of Elminster, while still keeping him nominally in the setting.
Indeed, and I'm actually pretty thankful for that.
Gotta give 3E props though for having the ability to emulate via rules what all the novels have taught us about Elminster and his past careers.
Regardless of stats, I can't wait to introduce him into my 4E game at some point. I want to make him a wandering meddler who knows just enough about the PC's pasts and their history vis-a-vis the (older) 3.5 characters to make them all uncomfortable and suspicious.
I ought to watch Excalibur again so I can study Merlin and use that to get the right feel for Elminster.
I ought to watch Excalibur again so I can study Merlin and use that to get the right feel for Elminster.
Merlin: "It's a lonely way you know, the way of the nercomancer....." "The days of our kind are numberèd. The one God comes to drive out the many gods. The spirits of wood and stream grow silent. It's the way of things. Yes... it's a time for men, and their ways."
.......classic! :D
Will he be artillery or controller?
expert..
Knowlegde nobility +33, arcane +33, planes +33, monsters+33 ... some 18 such knowlegde skills. No attacks, no spells, just 1 hp.
Oh yeah, and a pipe that allows a burning missiles (magic missiles, but fire), shot 1/day, at level 3.
Incase hes ever destroyed, oghma will just respawn him.
He also vanishes after giving advice, with the pipe... so its up to the players if they would rather have the lore or the pipe (and some xp).
I ought to watch Excalibur again so I can study Merlin and use that to get the right feel for Elminster.
I think reading Ed's novels would be a better start... Elminster definitely has a different "feel" as, say, Gandalf or Merlin. Much more playful.
.......classic! :D
Merlin's Spell (soundbyte)
I used to have a written form of that, from an old issue of Dragon Magazine, but I don't remember which issue it was in.
I used to say it all the time when casting spells during games.
See here for more QUOTES and Soundbytes from Excalibur.
Yes. But then again, many of us are a little scatterbrained, so it may be useful to know where we are not...or will not be...or somewhere.
I suppose that if someone was to quote something as 'fact' and use a link to a non-WotC site, it would be easier to tell if it were non-canon information.
The main D&D boards had a way of making that "go away" in some thread, but only if you used Firefox, which I don't.
What?!!
:D
-If you go to the Community Business section, they have "rules" for disabling it. Computer mumbo-jumbo that I don't understand...
I think reading Ed's novels would be a better start... Elminster definitely has a different "feel" as, say, Gandalf or Merlin. Much more playful.
Ah, but of old Ed has oft repeated that Merlin as portrayed in Excalibur is (one) of the real-life inputs a DM can use to emulate Elminster.
I like Merlin's sly tone and "I know more than you so you'd be wise to listen!" looks.
:D
I doubt he is all that playful anymore.
Ofcourse he will be busy bedding any and every elven maiden. Wonder why he loved myth drannor so much? It was in fashion to go about naked, infact it was a status symbol...
A 4e wizard is not a wizard anymore.
And 4e stats are not stats anymore. They represent just things, that a NPC can do in a fight. When not participating in combat with the PCs, he may have other abilities and powers, but they are not listed in the stats. Also, the stats say nothing about the history & development of NPCs. It's all up to the DM now.
While I realize that 0815 NPCs don't need such an amazing background, Elminster and the other dabblers do.
So for me as a player who hasn't played over a year and thus doesn't have a DM who tells him something about the unique background and abilities of a NPC, 4e stats, NPCs and everything is so much the worse than 3e with it's excessively long stats.
When not participating in combat with the PCs, he may have other abilities and powers, but they are not listed in the stats.
-Where are they written, then?
-That doesn't sound entirely right...
Ofcourse he will be busy bedding any and every elven maiden. Wonder why he loved myth drannor so much? It was in fashion to go about naked, infact it was a status symbol...
No bedding or nakedness anymore. I just don't see it. If WotC is looking to remove him from the "he's too powerful and always gets in the way/why do I have to do it if he can?" aspect of the game, not only do you have to strip him of his power, but also of any social aspect he may play in the game.
I see Eliminster being impotent and recluse at this point.
And, but "impotent," I am not referring to his need for viagra.
-Where are they written, then?
Nowhere. And that is the point. It's up to the DM to flesh additional traits of a character out and present it to the players. In 4e the DM is the difference between an ordinary, static NPC and a "living" character who grows and learns some new things with time. In 3e the stat blocks where responsible for that, to a certain degree.
El is actually a really good example for that. Before he was that awesome wizard, he was a fighter, a rogue, and a cleric. He had a story to tell about and when you looked at his stats, you could see his development as a character. Of course, there is no need to give every NPC such a background ;)
You just have to look at WotC's current philosophy. 'Good monsters don't need stats (or there are no good monsters) because the PCs are not supposed to fight against them, because the are good, and good vs. good is not possible.' The same goes for deities. 'Deities don't need stats, because mortals can't reach them, so the can't fight them.' And: 'There don't have to be evil deities in the PHB because the PCs are always good (or neutral) and good characters don't worship evil deities.' Imho just crap.
In regard to Els abilities I could imagine something like that: 'His stats don't need to include his ultra-powerful magic blast, because if he would use them against the PCs they would inevitabely die. Furthermore, his stats don't need to include his unique magic pipe because El would never give it away so there is no possibility for the PCs to get hold of his magic pipe.'
Btw, one of the designers said regarding Orcus' stats, that he could do much more, but his stats represent only those things, which he may use in combat with the PCs. (over at EnWorld... I look if I can find it again)
-That doesn't sound entirely right...
Well, maybe it was not expressed in the right way.
However, let's wait for El's official 4e stats
However, let's wait for El's official 4e stats
No stats.
No bedding or nakedness anymore. I just don't see it. If WotC is looking to remove him from the "he's too powerful and always gets in the way/why do I have to do it if he can?" aspect of the game, not only do you have to strip him of his power, but also of any social aspect he may play in the game.
I see Eliminster being impotent and recluse at this point.
And, but "impotent," I am not referring to his need for viagra.
check out what i wrote on the previous page, about being a respawning minion of oghma.. that has merely knowledge skills. And a rather lowpowered pipe.
Either they get the lore and hints for the next adventure, or some xp and a rather useless magical pipe. ;)
Oh and rather powerless old "goats" get laid in the real world too. Unless it takes great magic in faerun to get the same.. not just being nice, famous and having endless good stories (perform: story telling +33, knowledge.. insert whatever.. +33, as a minion lvl 30 sage (ie expert with tons of skills))
check out what i wrote on the previous page, about being a respawning minion of oghma.. that has merely knowledge skills. And a rather lowpowered pipe.
Either they get the lore and hints for the next adventure, or some xp and a rather useless magical pipe. ;)
Oh and rather powerless old "goats" get laid in the real world too. Unless it takes great magic in faerun to get the same.. not just being nice, famous and having endless good stories (perform: story telling +33, knowledge.. insert whatever.. +33, as a minion lvl 30 sage (ie expert with tons of skills))
I read what you posted, but either I don't understand it or you don't understand me.
Yours seems to come from a DM perspective, while mine is from a developers. Perhaps that's the deal?
Nowhere.
-That's just silly, then.
-Rich Baker has mentioned that Elminster's stats in 4e, along with most other "famous" NPCs, are going to be extremely minimal.
For what little that matters, I think that's absurd. If he's not going fight (alongside) the players, what does it matter?
For what little that matters, I think that's absurd. If he's not going fight (alongside) the players, what does it matter?
-I'm not exactly understanding the outrage...But, in theory, I agree. If he is purposely going to be having an extremely minimal role in things now, why waste that page space?
-I'm not exactly understanding the outrage...But, in theory, I agree. If he is purposely going to be having an extremely minimal role in things now, why waste that page space?
Right. I never required the stats. Its good fodder for DDi or for a DM's own judgement
Right. I never required the stats. Its good fodder for DDi or for a DM's own judgement
-A page and a half for stats Gerti the Frost Giant always seemed unnecessary to me. Especially since I don't using the Forgotten Realms as a place to set my campaigns in.
-When I write stats, I like to keep them short and simple (Name, Race, Class/Level), and if I ever feel like it for fun, I give them full stats and put their character sheet in my PC/NPC binder.
-A page and a half for stats Gerti the Frost Giant always seemed unnecessary to me. Especially since I don't using the Forgotten Realms as a place to set my campaigns in.
-When I write stats, I like to keep them short and simple (Name, Race, Class/Level), and if I ever feel like it for fun, I give them full stats and put their character sheet in my PC/NPC binder.
Yeah, the whole time-consuming effort of making good NPCs has always scared me away from DMing. Then again, what fun is it is you just chuck mass produced monsters at your players. I seriously need a more efficient method of generating NPCs.
Yeah, the whole time-consuming effort of making good NPCs has always scared me away from DMing. Then again, what fun is it is you just chuck mass produced monsters at your players. I seriously need a more efficient method of generating NPCs.
-I'm only talking for myself, but making NPCs is probably one of my favorite parts. Here's a tip, I guess: I take character concepts that I would have fun playing, and turn them into NPCs.
Apparently, 4E is supposed to make it easier to create monsters and NPCs.
Correction. 4E is supposed to make it easier to create combat statistics for monsters and NPCs.
And in my opinion, it delivers.
Hmm, it occurs to me. Can I slap the Class Templates on page 182-183 on those NPC's, as well? For instance, write up a Paladin NPC, and then slap on the Warlock Class Template and make that NPC an Elite? Would be pretty cool for a villainous Paladin/Warlock of Asmodeus.
Correction. 4E is supposed to make it easier to create combat statistics for monsters and NPCs.
And in my opinion, it delivers.
Hopefully though. I want to be able to create interesting NPCs that are easy enough to run without wasting away all my ink and money and creating full character sheets for all of them.
Hopefully though. I want to be able to create interesting NPCs that are easy enough to run without wasting away all my ink and money and creating full character sheets for all of them.
It really depends on how detailed you want to make them. You can use the simple NPC template or you can make them as detailed as PCs. Technically giving them more detail will make them somewhat more powerful (but not greatly). Even a complicated NPC made by PC rules is fairly fast to make though. Certainly far faster than he could ever be in 3.5
Certainly far faster than he could ever be in 3.5
-Using only the PHB and DMG, I've got creating 20th Level NPCs (complete with items, skills, feats and all of that) down to about 20 minutes. Not that difficult. Not that hard.
-Using only the PHB and DMG, I've got creating 20th Level NPCs (complete with items, skills, feats and all of that) down to about 20 minutes. Not that difficult. Not that hard.
If I ever get to DM, you have got to teach me that trick.
If I ever get to DM, you have got to teach me that trick.
-The more you do it, the easier it gets.
Indeed LK. I'd love to know that trick too. 20th level wizard NPC with budget-appropriate spellbook, 1-2 prestige classes, feats and the compulsory items for all slots. I mean otherwise he will get killed faster than you can blink.
-20th Level, core classes/multiclasses. No PrCs. With all spells, being as that a 20th Level character should have access to basically every one in the PHB, by virtue of making it that high of a level. Feats, they change, depending on the character, obviously, as do items. The DMG gives plenty of GP to 20th level characters, so money is hardly an issue, either.
Ehm no. You are not making a 20th level character that is by the book that way. Randomly giving him items and giving him all spells requires several times the budget of a 20th level NPC.
-Who said that I am giving him random items? I did not say that. And, I stand by the other statement: A character that is 20th Level should know all spells available to him/her. That a 20th Level character, a force to be reckoned, doesn't know how to cast, say, Burning Hands, defies believability in my campaigns.
-Who said that I am giving him random items? I did not say that. And, I stand by the other statement: A character that is 20th Level should know all spells available to him/her. That a 20th Level character, a force to be reckoned, doesn't know how to cast, say, Burning Hands, defies believability in my campaigns.
Unless they are pyrophobic...
Unless they are pyrophobic...
-Which would then come into their character story. But, even still: Having a spell in one's spellbook, and not wanting to cast it, for whatever reason, are two different things.
-Which would then come into their character story. But, even still: Having a spell in one's spellbook, and not wanting to cast it, for whatever reason, are two different things.
Still, giving characters access to all spells of any level simplifies their individuality and is a bit annoying.
Well I can get by him knowing all 1st level spells. But all 5th+ lvl spells?
-Why not? An NPC who is theoretically a seven thousand years old fallen mage-king should have access to a plethora of things, spells in his spellbook just being one of them.
Well an NPC who is level 20 is supposed to have only a specific ammount of gold to spend and scribing spells in your spellbooks is a pretty expensive process.
-The DMG, I believe, allots something like 800,000 GP to a 20th Level character. That aside, as I said, there's no reason for someone like a fallen, 6000 year old mage-king to not have had the funds to transcribe all of the spells in the PHB into his spellbook.
-The DMG, I believe, allots something like 800,000 GP to a 20th Level character. That aside, as I said, there's no reason for someone like a fallen, 6000 year old mage-king to not have had the funds to transcribe all of the spells in the PHB into his spellbook.
There is also no reason for a fallen 6000 year old mage king to be at Lv 20 at all. Also, some spells have regional esoteric ties that even a 6000 year old mage king (such as your own pampered majesty of course
) may be ignorant of.There is also no reason for a fallen 6000 year old mage king to be at Lv 20 at all.
-Why not? Makes sense to me.
Also, some spells have regional esoteric ties that even a 6000 year old mage king (such as your own pampered majesty of course
-If you want to keep on adding in theoreticals, we'll be here all day. That said, I said specifically that I am only using the Core books, here. Thus far, my setting lacks region-specific spells, and spellcasting styles.
220.000 GP for a 20th level NPC. And certainly flavorwise it makes sense. But the question is whether we are making NPCs by the book. Using the budget of npcs for their equipment and spells (and then calculating the effects of the equipment on stats) is the most time-consuming aspect of NPC creation. If you skip it, ofc you can make NPCs very fast.
-Whoops, 200,000, not 800,000.
-As I said, I do what I do, and have the process down to 20 minutes, about. With martial classes, it's easier, since most aren't as high level as magicians, there's never, and there's less things to take the time to bother computing.
Certain characters are expected to have prestige classes for flavor, especially BBEGs.
I don't care much for the notion that the base classes can't be flavorful in themselves.
Really? Fighters are flavorful by themselves?
They are if they wade into a cave full of bugbears naked screaming "leeeerrooyyy jeeennnnkkkiiinnns"
By flavorful I meant flavorful in combat.
That is where background, sorcery, and equipment all comes in.
By flavorful I meant flavorful in combat.
-That's going to vary from person to person. Personally speaking, I don't like playing Fighters. Other people- including people I know- enjoy wading into combat, Cleaving everything they see, causing massive damage on criticals with magical weapons that are highly enchanted to cause all kind of effects.
-"Flavor", and by this, I mean a good story, is not related to mechanics.
Seconded.
I am sorry but even with an amazing backstory and flavorful descriptions, unless an NPC is also supported by flavorful mechanics, he will be boring in combat. Both are needed. Creating NPCs for sport is different to creating them for combat encounters and adventure modules, which is where they actually count.
That really depends upon if it is a combat or noncombat situation.
I am sorry but even with an amazing backstory and flavorful descriptions, unless an NPC is also supported by flavorful mechanics, he will be boring in combat. Both are needed. Creating NPCs for sport is different to creating them for combat encounters and adventure modules, which is where they actually count.
-As I mentioned, boring is subjective. Things I find boring, other people like.
That really depends upon if it is a combat or noncombat situation.
I specifically say in a combat situation.
I specifically say in a combat situation.
Yeah, then I agree with you.
-Don't you already know the answer? When mentioned, it's likely they'll get abbreviated stat blocks (Elminster, Male Human Wizard 20+), but that's about all.
but you don't think they will stat block anyone on DDi. I know they won't in the 2 books
but you don't think they will stat block anyone on DDi.
-On that, probably.
Well, what else are they gonna do on DDi.
-Anything, theoretically. Are there any samples of what kind of articles there will be out there?
-Anything, theoretically. Are there any samples of what kind of articles there will be out there?
not that I am aware of
Poor El... is heart didn't support the lost of is true love: Mystra.
:D ;)not that I am aware of
-Oh well.