Pg.4, Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide:
"Learn ye well the lesson of the pebble that begets a landslide. Likewise a single betrayal unleashed the Spellplague, whose consequences yet dance and stagger across Toril, and beyond." -- Elminster of Shadowdale, Year of the Ageless One (1479 DR)
-That said, it is perhaps possible that Elminster was referring to events much before 1385 DR, like those events during the Avatar Crisis, when Cyric originally betrayed Midnight and Adon and Kelemvor and everyone, and "officially" became the 'evil' Cyric.
Ultimately, it is my goal to explore scenarios that lie within the realms of possibility from the most likely (Cyric's betrayal from the Time of Troubles) to the most unlikely but still possible (the "butler" did it).
I keep picking on the God of Mages, which is unfair, really. There are a great many other possibilities (including Savras) and I actually like Azuth. But I am trying to put my own personal biases aside and entertain other options for the sake of creativity.
In that vein, I would like to invite others that are willing, to set aside any misgivings, grudges, and biases they have to put the creative muses to work and post your own thoughts on how it *might* have gone down.
-Firstly, you need an individual to allow Cyric into Mystra's realm. Velsharoon is really the only one who'd be willing to do that. Based on the fact that Shar was actively charming Velsharoon, perhaps he was acting on his own accord, perhaps he was being manipulated. The fact that he escaped Nessus, while Azuth didn't is also slightly suspect. Perhaps Asmodeus was also in on what Cyric and Shar were doing, and "ate" Azuth only, having been informed by Shar to spare Velsharoon, for his part in the plan. Ultimately, he died anyway, but...
If he were granted such access, then shame on Mystra and Azuth for being so foolish. While hard to believe, it is not impossible for such beings to be negligent in foresight. Mythology (both real world and fantasy world) is abound with examples of Gods Behaving Foolishly so it's not without precedent.
It is also possible that we, like Mystra and Azuth, seriously misunderestimate the capability of Velsharoon. Perhaps he was a "plant" all along, having been successfully courted by Shar before going over to Mystra's house for protection. Also perhaps, Velsharoon acted of his own accord, seeing an opportunity and taking it.
In your scenario, it seems more likely that Shar would promise Velsharoon safe passage and then simply "forget" to follow through with said promise (assuming his participation).
I do not know enough about Savras (I shall do some researching, I've forgotten much of my Realm-fu) to speculate on why or how he could be persuaded to the dark side but I want to believe that it is certainly possible (if hard to believe) that either he or Azuth could be turned and thus also implicit in events. The hardest to swallow betrayals often come from those viewed as least likely to do such a thing.
The fact that he escaped Nessus, while Azuth didn't is also slightly suspect.
Where does it say that he also landed in Nessus?
"Velsharoon escaped Azuth's Fate and thus did not end up Asmodeus's Hot Pocket."
The deed would definately flow easier with an "inside" guy - someone with the ability and access to allow intruders into Mystra's house to perform the act of murder. Of those inside Mystra's house, Velsharoon is certainly the most likely candidate but it does create questions on how he did it under the noses of Mystra and Azuth. I can't imagine he had complete free reign of her domain and it is hard to fathom that he'd be trusted with the locks to the door (assuming they work both ways and unlike real doors where all he has to do is turn the knob).
-All he would really need is the front door key. Having his Divine Realm on Dweomerheart and all, I would assume that he would need to have it, to be able to come and go. As such, all Cyric would have needed to do was get into Velsharoon's realm. From there, he was already in Dweomerheart. In theory, the "deed" could have been done in Velsharoon's domain, in him luring Mystra into it, while Cyric was waiting behind the door with his sword ready.
If he were granted such access, then shame on Mystra and Azuth for being so foolish. While hard to believe, it is not impossible for such beings to be negligent in foresight. Mythology (both real world and fantasy world) is abound with examples of Gods Behaving Foolishly so it's not without precedent.
-Well, in their defense, they aren't omniscient, and they, in theory, did not have any reason to believe that Velsharoon was going to betray them then and there. He was serving them since...1368 DR, so that's almost ten years of service. After a while, you start letting your guard down.
Where does it say that he also landed in Nessus?
-AGHotR says that Velsharoon and Azuth were blasted into the Astral. The FRCG amends this slightly, being as that Azuth was slain by Asmodeus. He "landed" in the Archdevil's realm, and Asmodeus promptly "ate" him.
-All he would really need is the front door key. Having his Divine Realm on Dweomerheart and all, I would assume that he would need to have it, to be able to come and go. As such, all Cyric would have needed to do was get into Velsharoon's realm. From there, he was already in Dweomerheart. In theory, the "deed" could have been done in Velsharoon's domain, in him luring Mystra into it, while Cyric was waiting behind the door with his sword ready.
Very true. This I had not considered and certainly would provide a way in. Having the "deed" performed from within Velsharoon's domain definately does provide the scenario with even greater strength. In my Forgotten Realms campaign, I would be most apt to choose this scenario, with Velsharoon not escaping his treachery as planned.
Well, in their defense, they aren't omniscient, and they, in theory, did not have any reason to believe that Velsharoon was going to betray them then and there. He was serving them since...1368 DR, so that's almost ten years of service. After a while, you start letting your guard down.
Also true. Ten years is a considerable amount of time and its easy to forget in that time. But Velsharoon is also evil, and I'd have to imagine that after ten years of living with an evil guy, you'd have plenty of things happening to remind you that he's evil
Azuth: "Hey, why do you keep killing and animating my house cats?"
Vel: "It wasn't me"
/emote Velsharoon *kills and animates Azuth's goldfish*
Azuth: "I just SAW you"
Vel: Don't know what you are talking about. *steal's Azuth's pizza*
A flippant and silly example, but my point would be that Velsharoon, an evil undead necromancer god, would still be remaining true to his nature and doing evil undead necromancy god things during this period (assuming ten years of Forgotten Realm god times creeps as slowly as it would for us mere mortals). There would likely be clues that he is still an evil undead necromancer god.
Then again, perhaps that worked to his advantage. Mystra and Azuth *know* he is evil. They are granting him refuge (so he doesn't get a sound beating from Talos) and a place to be a god (so he doesn't go over and become part of Shar's clique). They likely *don't* want to see what he's doing every day (Mystra: "Dude, take the undead parrot to your room..we don't need to see that. AND leave Azuth's stuff alone!") and after even a year of having the "Realm-of-undead-necromancer-god" next door, they probably pull down the Divine-Shades and pretend he's not there -- only checking on him when they have to.
I've a friend that argues Savras should have seen this all coming and would have informed Mystra and Azuth about events. I've seen the same thing somewhere on the boards and the general counter argument seems to be that this is how Shar aided Cyric.
Is it not also possible that the outcome of said scenario is that Savras ends up obliterated sometime before the murder of Mystra? Savras forsees a terrible and horrible end in every scenario where he "snitches" --perhaps the realms is even worse off for it -- and so wisely chooses to keep out of events and buy himself some time... or even better, he knows the conflaguration that is destructing Dweomerheart doesn't consume him as is generally believed but shunts him off somewhere into the future or Elsewhere.
Savras might have been harboring a secret grudge against Azuth.
But Velsahroon seems to be more likely, as he escapes the initial destruction after Mystras death.
Maybe he tried to become the god of all magic after the death of the others? To do sohe tried some ritual but was foiled be the Simbul and other chosen (better no god of magic at all then Velsharoon) and burnt in 'fire' (in which the Simbul is thought to also have perished). The simbarchs now watch over the god's corpse in memory of the Simbul.
Lirdolin
The being blasted to Baator fits into the story of the "betrayer of gods" being sent to hell. In this case though, it was Azuth instead of Asmodeous.
Just a silly thought.
My personal theory is that Azuth aided Cyric and Shar.
-Doesn't really seem to fit with what we know of him. That said, given the lack of information, if an author/designer/DM wanted to paint Azuth off as jealous and such, there would certainly not be any canon to really stop them.
-Doesn't really seem to fit with what we know of him. That said, given the lack of information, if an author/designer/DM wanted to paint Azuth off as jealous and such, there would certainly not be any canon to really stop them.
One other thing I kinda get a kick out of is how Elminster ended up in hell for awhile just before Azuth got blasted to hell as well.
Granted I don't think they are related, its just kinda coincidental.-Concerning Azuth, it is possible that he disliked Mystra-Midnight, and saw her as a "bad" deity of magic, and, as such, began plotting that she have an "accident". Of course, in the end, it didn't work out for him.
-...Or, was it?
Only Gargauth knows, and he isn't talking!
-Savras might have, but he's dead now...Again, that's an awfully big coincidence...
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=y-9L-RZkod4
or is he.
no body.....
was the explosion of dwemoerheart an illusion, did the lady of illusions come out of hiding a play a joke on all of faerun......
did savras get with her long ago to put the pieces in place?
is mystra dead???
oh the conspiracies
-Concerning Azuth, it is possible that he disliked Mystra-Midnight, and saw her as a "bad" deity of magic, and, as such, began plotting that she have an "accident". Of course, in the end, it didn't work out for him.
Of course he didn't like her, for he lost his hot-chick-sometimes-lover-mistress and gained a dumb, middle-aged human woman with an average wisdom score (at best) instead.
One other thing I kinda get a kick out of is how Elminster ended up in hell for awhile just before Azuth got blasted to hell as well.
Actually, Asmodeus might not even know that El was in Hell at that time, simply because of the spell Mystra/Halaster cast in the end of the book.
A dark, scaled hand set down a goblet that smoked and bubbled green in the gloom. "How amusing," Asmodeus observed from his throne of linked, living she-devils, and meant it.
Idly the Lord of Nessus reached out. Slaying magic built and snarled darkly up his arms and filled his cupped hand. When his palm was full, he'd flick his wrist and sent it to Avernus. There it would slay the exhausted, sobbing human sorceress [the Simbul] whose image floated above him. She even now embraced the ruined, armless body of a man [Elminster] in a hidden cavern, all her attention bent to pouring her vitality into him. Asmodeus started to smile. Ah, sweet irony...
In a void of drifting stars, Mystra drew the howling man from her breast. She held Halaster out to face a whirling vision - the greatest devil of all smiling as dark fire filled his hand. She whispered urgently, "Now!"
Halaster Blackcloak broke off a slobbering sound that was half-howl and half-giggle, drew himself up with dark eyes blazing, and snapped, "Asmodeus! Bow down!"
The Lord of Hell turned his head in astonishment - and across the voids and spheres and drifting chaos, their eyes met.
With a crooked smile Halaster Blackcloak said the word of the spell Mystra had taught him. All his raving madness roared out into Asmodeus, jolting that elegant body.
Those amused and sinister eyes rolled up and leaked golden fire. That quirked mouth parted in a cry of astonished agony. The fire of that titanic spell raged through the devil's mind.
As Mystra firmly closed the link between void and Nessus, Asmodeus blinked at the gloom all around and took another sip form his goblet. Now, what was it he'd been going to do? Something amusing...
Alright, then?
-Doesn't really seem to fit with what we know of him.
I agree. There's nothing at all in Azuth's history (that I'm aware of) that suggests he would love to betray Mystra.
Of course he didn't like her, for he lost his hot-chick-sometimes-lover-mistress and gained a dumb, middle-aged human woman with an average wisdom score (at best) instead.
-And a low Charisma score.
*There's no indication anywhere that he didn't like Midnight-Mystra.
*There's no indication anywhere that he didn't like Midnight-Mystra.
And in fact Elminster and the new Mystra seemed quite fond of each other (going by some of the recent Elminster novels).
But my bet is on these guys. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gldlyTjXk9A
No one ever suspects them!
Savras... probably still upset about her allowing him to be stuck in a stick by her pet wizard, Azuth, and left there to rot for a considerable stretch of time.
-Nothing is ever said of his affiliations before he was imprisoned by Azuth. Maybe.
As noted from responses previously, Velsharoon does seem the most likely, logical and (horribly obvious) suspect. Dramatically, however, is he the most suitable candidate for the role of traitor? Should we so quickly finger out Velsharoon as guilty and convict him on the circumstantial evidence that he is evil? It seems more entertaining to address other scenarios of "could so-and-so have" than to go and dispense Tyr-styled quick and certain justice to the guy in black robes.
I still maintain (despite my liking of Azuth) that naratively, the God of Wizards seems the perfect target to spin a story about, complete with poetic justice ending (of which I am an immense fan).
But we need not limit our inspections to just Azuth, Savras, and Velsharoon. Are there other ways this could have happened?
* Could Mask have breached the impenetrable doors that is a deity's realm to let another in? Unlikely that he would aid Cyric. But would he know Cyric was the one he'd let in? Would he do it for Shar? Would she lie to him?
* Could one of Mystra's servants (exarch, demigod, angel, hero) have betrayed her?
-Nothing is ever said of his affiliations before he was imprisoned by Azuth. Maybe.
Whether he served her or not is immaterial. Affiliated or no, he could still very well hold a grudge for her patronage of said pet wizard... since he can't really strike directly at either of them without getting wiped, why not bide his time, play the loyal little servant, and then let the revenge he foresaw unfold with the simple little action of opening a door. Not like he said much to warn either of them during the ToT either... not much help from the guy who's supposed to know the future and all that. Which would imply that either the Spellplague thing was 'written in stone', fate wise, or that perhaps he decided to help it along, even if it meant his own end, since it punished those who abused him in the past.
As to the poetic justice of Azuth's end, could very well be that dear old Savras spun that one up himself... couldn't take him directly, but maybe he could have set things up to get him to Azzy's place in the aftermath, and then let the archfiend do the dirtywork for him...
Could just be fond memories of a Cult of Ecstasy barabbi coming back to haunt me, but there's a lot of really ebil stuff a fellow with divination could pull off without a whole lot of effort on his part if he had the right motivation... revenge served cold and all that.
As observed elsewhere, there is no body for Savras so no real proof that he is dead - other than written text stating "Dweomerheart blew up and Savras was toast" so it's within the realm of possibility that Savras could even still be out there, all knowing, all seeing....
Savras, as a "He who slowly plots his revenge for long ago inflicted ills" is a possibility and it *does* have narrative potential. He would certainly have additional resources to pull upon that Azuth may not, and does even have the semblance of a motive.... but would he need to remove the new Mystra/Midnight to get at Azuth? This incarnation is *not* the same being that allowed him to be imprisoned by "her pet wizardling" and it seems unlikely Savras would have deliberately marked her for revenge on this premise. However, that doesn't rule out a "Mystra as collateral damage" scenario for the God of Diviners....
Azuth paced across the dull marble floor in frustration, despite his attempts to remain calm and composed. It bothered, no, outraged him that once again things were not being done as laid out by the Lady -- his Lady --- and were instead being mangled by the foolish hands of that Midnight
"This latest affront is too much to bear!" he shouted out as he walked over to the Faerun Magica, which shifted and scrawled into itself every spell dreamed forth. He stood before it, resting his hands upon the sides of the mithril pedastal that supported the Great Book. "I cannot believe she would do this!"
But she had. She had flooded more of the weave into the Realms, creating a glut of sorcerers and other reckless, untrained users of magic. She had brought disharmony and chaos to the beautiful structure that was and had been the foundation of the Art. Could she not see what this was doing to Wizardry?
Ah, but she does, came a voice. He recoiled for a minute, surprised by the alieness of the thought until he realized that it was just his own, finally giving sound to the reality of the situation. She seeks to replace you. You are part of the Old Way. The Old Mystra.
Azuth clutched at the pedastal with such power that the writing of the Faerun Magica ceased for a moment. He pondered his fears, examining them for the speculations that they were. There was no evidence that this was true, really. Perhaps he was being reactionary?
Perhaps, responded the thought. But did she not also grant refuge to that Corpse Robber, Velsharoon? The very same Necromancer you cautioned her against welcoming within the fold? Did she listen? He is clearly evil, his corruption of the Art so vile that he had to seek deitification through that clumsy oaf Talos, no? This hardly seems fair.
The God of Wizards hesitated, growing suspicious of the voice that seemed far more than his own. Still, the voice spoke the truth of the matter.
"None of this is fair! When Bane and his lackeys stole the tablets and we were cast out, did I not remain faithful to my portfolio?" Azuth responded angrily. He turned from the pedastal and made quick return to his frustrated pacings.
You were faithful. Even when beloved Mystra chose to confront Helm and was torn asundered, you remained true to your obligations. You did not go to her when she needed you most, despite your dearest wishes to. Such sacrifice... and for all your noble service you got ...
"Midnight," Azuth said bitterly. He was initially surprised by the venom within his voice but it was too late. Too many years of frustration and anguish over the loss of his Lady, of the events since then, poured forth. His voice became choked with sorrow and loss. "Midnight becomes Goddess of Magic. Not even an accomplished wizard of the Art!"
No greater a crime could be committed. You were the greatest Magister to walk Faerun. Would they put an apprentice to the post before you?
"No, they most suredly would not!" Azuth retorted.
You would not have tolerated such an act. You, who were mighty enough as a mortal to defeat and entrap a God...
"Yes! Such an affront to the Art I would not have brooched"
And the ruination of Mystra's name she has brought, being brought before the Cynosure for trial aside that lout, Cyric - like some common mortal criminal. She has disgraced the name of Mystra
Azuth nodded, his words failed him.
You should have taken over in your lady's name. Not this foolish mortal girl, this reckless mage who had yet to even master a simple Planar Gate. You have suffered wrongly. Your loss and despair I can taste..
"Shar!" Azuth tore himself free of the dark thoughts he had become quagmired in. "I know you for what you are, now, Lady of the Night. How dare you enter my domain and work your evil! I will see you sorry for your meddling!" He put up a ward to defend himself against her workings.
The Goddess of Loss chuckled, her thoughts easily breaching his wards. It is you who entered my domain, Azuth, with your mourning over the loss of the old ways. And I work no evil. You know the words I speak are true.
"What do you want? Certainly you have better things to do with your time than plague me with your tauntings?" Azuth brought forth more spells of protection to fight off further attack. But Shar's damage was done. He was tired and weak, emotionally distraught. Not a not safe place to be with the Lady of Loss.
I come to undo a wrong suffered to you, Lord Magister. I come before you with a proposal that would see you rightful Lord of Magic, capable and strong, leading Wizardry into a new Age from the depths that Midnight has castrated it
"Mutinous words that you speak aside, Lossbringer, I find you unlikely to generously aid another. Appease my curiosity and tell me what you have to gain from all this?"
Two things. The first rather more important than the second, but I will have both or no deal at all.
"Demanding words, since you have failed to win me with your offer ," Azuth snapped. Still, there was no harm in hearing her out, was there? "What are these two things you would seek?"
The first is a ten year boon to my followers that practice the Art. Grant their spells greater efficiency and power.
"The Shadow Weave not enough, Dark Mistress?" Azuth chuckled dryly. "What is the second?"
I want Velsharoon. He belonged to me. Midnight stole him from me.
Azuth pondered upon this. Velsharoon's presence within Dweomerheart was a embarassment to Azuth, reminding him of the depths things had fallen. "And in return you would see me betray Mystra for my own gain?"
Not your own gain, no. I would expect you to honor your portfolio and do it for the Art, to do it for Wizardry... and to do it to honor the Goddess you mourn and despair over increasingly more frequently...
Azuth's will broke. He could not find fault with the arguments Shar brought before him, for they had been his own thoughts even before she crept into his domain to entice him with this offer. Midnight would never be Mystra, just a mortal girl dabbling with magics she did not earn - much like the sorcerers she set loose on Faerun. The post had been rightly his and he had tolerated things for too long.
"W-what do you propose?"
1) According to the FRCS, there were sorcerers in the Realms before Midnight ever become Mystra.
2) When Mystryl died, didn't some "simple-minded farm girl" become Mystra (from the fallout rom Mystryl)? Why is that somehow "better" than Ariel Manx--Midnight--becoming the new Mystra?
2) When Mystryl died, didn't some "simple-minded farm girl" become Mystra (from the fallout rom Mystryl)? Why is that somehow "better" than Ariel Manx--Midnight--becoming the new Mystra?
-Based on the information that we have on her, the first Mystra, in the hundreds of years that she was the sovereign of magic, did not...stir-up half of the amount of controversy (as in, in the Forgotten Realms) that Midnight-Mystra did in her relatively short 36-year "term" as deity of magic. That includes the "incident" in the Cynosure, with her threats to deny others magic, her amping up of the conflict (intentionally or unintentionally) with Shar...
Is it fishy that the god of diviners didn't see this one coming? Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if this was covered and I missed it somewhere.....
-It has been discussed before. The prevalent theory is that, since Shar is the deity of secrets, she kept the secret from Savras. And, her being a very powerful deity, whereas he was not a very powerful deity, she was successfully able to do this.
-Based on the information that we have on her, the first Mystra, in the hundreds of years that she was the sovereign of magic, did not...stir-up half of the amount of controversy (as in, in the Forgotten Realms) that Midnight-Mystra did in her relatively short 36-year "term" as deity of magic. That includes the "incident" in the Cynosure, with her threats to deny others magic, her amping up of the conflict (intentionally or unintentionally) with Shar...
Perhaps, but I was referring to Azuth's comments (in the story) about a Midnight being a mere low-to-mid level mage who hadn't mastered any super-powerful spells yet. I was pointing out that that isn't so bad if compared to the first Mystra, who was formed after Mystryl's essence fell down on a woman who was mentally incapacitated, or close to it (at least, that's my probably-not-perfect understanding of what happened). It's unlikely that girl was able to cast any spells.
-Oh, oh, oh. Makes more sense, when you put it like that.
I'm glad.
She might ask the following in such a case:
"Where was Azuth at the time when Mystryl's essence fell? My recollection is that he remembers Mystra, not Mystryl, so he comes along somewhere after that point. It would do nothing to diminish the manipulative arguments suggested by Shar"
"...that, and has not anyone ever said something in a time of emotional despair that they would later regret? Could that not be the very same case with Azuth in my literature? We've seen plenty of examples of Divine Behavior, and if the Gods can act out of emotion, they bloody well can speak out of emotion too!"
as for the FRCS, She would be unable to respond to that, only able to ask "What is a FurCis?".
Myself, I would only offer a belief that there was a long period of time between the early years of sorcerery and the re-emergence of sorcerers ala 3e that the world was very silent on things sorcererous, regardless of later retconning. There may indeed *have* always been sorcerers, but there is no where that it suggests that there cannot have been a great influx of that kind of magic after Midnight-Mystra. Given her track record, it's acceptible to me.
None-the-less, it's a creative attempt at an explanation of a "what-if" scenario meant to be nothing more than entertaining to those that enjoy it - which is far better than the poo-pooing that seems so prevalent elsewhere in the forums. It's my desire to keep my own personal realm a pleasant friendly hospice of carebear happiness
and leave the tainted despair and misery (Shar, are you responsible for this?) in the other forum areas. Take from it what you will or will not with my sincere best wishes.I was pointing out that that isn't so bad if compared to the first Mystra, who was formed after Mystryl's essence fell down on a woman who was mentally incapacitated, or close to it (at least, that's my probably-not-perfect understanding of what happened). It's unlikely that girl was able to cast any spells.
I"m sorry but your very wrong. she was no farm girl.
In the second book of the arcane age series dangerous games you first meet Mystra as she is discribed as a young Lady Polaris. for those that don't remmember the books Polaris was the Arcanist that owned the flying city to two wizards that started playing with Sunbright, the warrior throughout the first book and they both where no farm girls but every power archmages. and yes the male wizard girl friend comes in later after he has meet with Mystra and forget all about it with just a kiss....and says she could not detect any magic she has used on him.....that she must of had less then her parrot.......that just shows you how much more powerful she was.....
If you wont to read it your self pick up the second book and start with chapter 15, and a few chapter later after karsus kills himself she in down on the ground in a farm like area when the now dieing Mystryl talks to her. and says it wont be long now.
I still don't see why the betrayal had to take place with Mystra. Both Cyric and Shar are more capable of betrayal than the other gods mentioned--why not have it take place between them?
do you mean Azuth.......because other god cant enter another gods domain, Like the victioms house, Mystra.......who has wards setup for Cyric, Shar and the other gods she did not wont in there, but Azuth was one that for sure had keys to the front door kind of ......so there is on WotC info to back this up.......but i'm liking thie more and more........my campaign might be revide with a murber to solve.ehehehehe
None-the-less, it's a creative attempt at an explanation of a "what-if" scenario meant to be nothing more than entertaining to those that enjoy it...
I understand that, I just saw a few "holes" in Miss Goldharp's argument.
All previous lore regarding the interaction between Mystra and Azuth suggests that they were fond of each other. Also, I'm not expert here but I am fairly certain that there is more to the entity of Mystra than simply Midnight or even the mentally-challenged farm girl who became the first Mystra.If you wont to read it your self pick up the second book and start with chapter 15...
"If I won't read it myself...?" Don't know if you meant to come off as rude, but...well, you did. I also couldn't really understand you, sorry.
I've picked up the information about the farm girl from sources I consider to be very reliable. So, I won't concede the point yet.
"If you want to read it yourself...." here's where to look and proceeds to provide a source.
I am pretty certain that she in no way meant to be rude, just mispelled want. I know she didn't insert the apostrophe in to her sentence that you put there.
As for the holes, there can't be anything *but* them, since we have a Abier-sized hole where I'd like written lore to be about what actually happened. I can do nothing but assume
Now, about Miss Goldharp's response to the Azuth-Mystra thingy, she did counter one of the holes with:
"Where was Azuth at the time when Mystryl's essence fell? My recollection is that he remembers Mystra, not Mystryl, so he comes along somewhere after that point. It would do nothing to diminish the manipulative arguments suggested by Shar"
All previous lore regarding the interaction between Midnight-Mystra and Azuth is, I believe, woefully inadequate to assess Azuth's true feelings. I remain unconvinced that existing lore (such as it these days with Elf-gods-were-always-human-gods, Gruumsh-was-always-Talos, etc. etc) paints an iron-clad case either way.
I *do* hope to explore (and find creative outlet) for several other scenarios than just Azuth being the culprit. As I've said, I like him and hate how he ended up a shish-kebob for ol John Lovitz in a devil suit. I am figuring that once I've gotten him out of the way, suggesting scenarios of how others could of done it will be far easier on me.
I still don't see why the betrayal had to take place with Mystra. Both Cyric and Shar are more capable of betrayal than the other gods mentioned--why not have it take place between them?
Well, this all hinges on the idea that the reference to betrayal that Elminster makes even pertains to this. As Lord Karsus wisely suggested, it is just as likely (moreso, reall) that it was a reference to Cyric's betraying Midnight and Kelemvor way back in the Time of Troubles.
But laying the blame solely at the feet of Cyric and Shar is just the easy way out (narrative-wise), really -- as is making Velsharoon the culprit. That's not a challenging story to try and come up with. Now, Shar insidiously corrupting/twisting another diety that was once a trusted friend into betraying/aiding/looking the otherway.... that could make a story, no?
On that note... I am not certain Cyric has been capable of betraying anyone (other than his own flock) for some time, now. I mean, who is going to trust him? Can you trust a Chaotic Evil god of Madness and Murder? Would you? I think that to be able to betray someone you have to be in a position of trust... and well.. I am certain the Prince of Lies has long used up any stock he had in the trust department.
i would like to say i'm sorry if I came off as rube i made the reply after working all night at work and that might not have been the best time to put the thought together, but in the novel the first Mystra before she became a goddess. could pass through wards made by other really high casters that were close to Karsus's level with out been detected and even modify the minds of those people with little to no effect. she also know alot about his current project...the avatar spell.....all of these things leads me to think that she was very smart and a power spellcaster.
you all keep saying that ..... i don't see anyone coming up with campaign info....pages and stuff.....in what book is this detailed...... i have all of the 2e and 3e FR products and have only find into for the first Mystra in the Arcane novel series.
still waiting
To curtail a potential misunderstanding (and quite possibly - and unwisely - step on a land mine) I believe that Rose_Dechara wasn't saying "If you won't read it yourself" but was trying to be helpful and say
"If you want to read it yourself...." here's where to look and proceeds to provide a source.
I am pretty certain that she in no way meant to be rude, just mispelled want. I know she didn't insert the apostrophe in to her sentence that you put there.
You're probably right.
As for the holes, there can't be anything *but* them, since we have a Abier-sized hole where I'd like written lore to be about what actually happened. I can do nothing but assume
Too true.
Now, about Miss Goldharp's response to the Azuth-Mystra thingy, she did counter one of the holes with:
"Where was Azuth at the time when Mystryl's essence fell? My recollection is that he remembers Mystra, not Mystryl, so he comes along somewhere after that point. It would do nothing to diminish the manipulative arguments suggested by Shar"
Maybe not. See the next point, though...
All previous lore regarding the interaction between Midnight-Mystra and Azuth is, I believe, woefully inadequate to assess Azuth's true feelings. I remain unconvinced that existing lore (such as it these days with Elf-gods-were-always-human-gods, Gruumsh-was-always-Talos, etc. etc) paints an iron-clad case either way.
Heh. I guess that's where we'd just have to disagree, then, because Azuth never struck me as anything but fond of, and happy to help, Mystra (Midnight or no).
They seemed close--close to the extent where Azuth would have learned about the first Mystra's origins even if he had not been around (or a god) way back then. Now it's true we haven't seen everything, but what I've seen is all I have to go on.-Mystra was Simple Jack.
Oh yeah, it's true!:P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
i would like to say i'm sorry if I came off as rube i made the reply after working all night at work and that might not have been the best time to put the thought together...
It's fine, think nothing of it.
we know Shar and Cyric or the main two behind it all......Cyric being the one that killed her..........but any idea on why Elminster is the way he is .....does anyone else think that he was the one that Betrayed Mystra...........with something he did or didn't do that started the small pebble rolling.
do you mean Azuth.......because other god cant enter another gods domain, Like the victioms house, Mystra.......who has wards setup for Cyric, Shar and the other gods she did not wont in there, but Azuth was one that for sure had keys to the front door kind of ......so there is on WotC info to back this up.......but i'm liking thie more and more........my campaign might be revide with a murber to solve.ehehehehe
No. I mean that the Betrayal was made with Cyric towards Shar or vice-versa.
And, with all rules thrown out the window, there is no saying why a domain can't be entered--especially in the case of Shar at this point.
ok, the back on track here..............
we know Shar and Cyric or the main two behind it all......Cyric being the one that killed her..........but any idea on why Elminster is the way he is .....does anyone else think that he was the one that Betrayed Mystra...........with something he did or didn't do that started the small pebble rolling.
Eliminster has the Chosen stuck on his membrane. No way in the nine hells he betrayed her.
I just see little point on fabricating for the "good" side when it could easily be the bad that was being referred to.
-Would she be willing to sacrifice Mystra in order to lands a grievous blow to Shar? Does the end justify the mean? I agree, in D&D alignment, it wouldn't work, but throwing D&D alignment out the window for a moment...
One of the books in the Haunted Lands trilogy states, revealed in a prophecy by the zulkir of Divination, that Shar gave Cyric a cloak (almost certainly an artifact of vast power) that served to hide him, much like that amulet Rhinda the bard once had to hide herself and the Cyrinishad from the eyes of all the gods.
One of the books in the Haunted Lands trilogy states, revealed in a prophecy by the zulkir of Divination, that Shar gave Cyric a cloak (almost certainly an artifact of vast power) that served to hide him, much like that amulet Rhinda the bard once had to hide herself and the Cyrinishad from the eyes of all the gods.
-That doesn't answer how Cyric physically was able to enter into Dweomerheart. It can explain how beings like Savras were unable to discover the plot, or how Cyric was able to sneak around undetected once he got into Dweomerheart.
One thing that I will say, however, is that Savras is the deity of Divination, right? Well, either he didn't know this was going on because it was so cloaked by Shar and Cyric... Or he figured it out (being all Divination specialist and whatnot that he is) and decided to aid them for whatever reason. Kind of a floppy argument, but who knows. Savras might hold a grudge against Azuth, and this lead to his death as well, afterall.
Azuth, well... I'm not sure about him. Like you all said, not enough information.
Now, I've never been a Realm-Fu Champion, but it seems like Elminster talked like the betrayal was but a pebble that started the whole thing. I really don't think that letting Cyric into Dweomerheart would be a pebble. That sounds more like the landslide about to crush out poor Mystra.
Is there any way that, perhaps, Cyric's original betrayal could have an even deeper meaning to the Spellplague and all that?
Well, Selune being the one to have opened the door for Cyric would certainly be a betrayal, that's for sure.
One thing that I will say, however, is that Savras is the deity of Divination, right? Well, either he didn't know this was going on because it was so cloaked by Shar and Cyric... Or he figured it out (being all Divination specialist and whatnot that he is) and decided to aid them for whatever reason. Kind of a floppy argument, but who knows. Savras might hold a grudge against Azuth, and this lead to his death as well, afterall.
Azuth, well... I'm not sure about him. Like you all said, not enough information.
Now, I've never been a Realm-Fu Champion, but it seems like Elminster talked like the betrayal was but a pebble that started the whole thing. I really don't think that letting Cyric into Dweomerheart would be a pebble. That sounds more like the landslide about to crush out poor Mystra.
Is there any way that, perhaps, Cyric's original betrayal could have an even deeper meaning to the Spellplague and all that?
-You've basically summed the discussion of page 1 and 2. ;) :P
Sad thing is, I actually read pages 1 and 2.
Do forgive, I'm incredibly tired right now.
Azuth is the god of wizards, not just weave users, but also users of the shadow weave. Perhaps Mystra had been pressuring him to work against people that he sees himself as representing, and since new Mystras had always arisen in the past, thought nothing of this Mystra being killed and having a new one with new policies come along.
He handed the keys of the kingdom to Shar and Cyric, little realizing that he was Shar's intended target all along.
I'm basing this theory on the current state of 4e game mechanics wherein diviners (once one of the best - if not the best - specialists in 3e) took a major hit.
Cyric wanted to off Mystra given their history; but if Shar wanted to weaken the Weave and its users (i.e. wizards and sorcerers), then what better way than by taking out the class of spells that made them so uber-powerful? Weakening divination spells also makes it easier to keep secrets, thus ensuring the power of her divine portfolio.
Savras didn't see the Spellplague coming 'coz Shar blinded him by tapping into his buried resentment of Azuth and Mystra. He helped Shar, but Shar probably rewarded him by killing or imprisoning him. So, even though magic and wizards and sorcerers (in PHB 2?) are making a comeback, they're still limited to divination rituals that are a pale imitation of the old divination spell list.
For those who disagree, just consider this an exercise in using game mechanics to shape campaign history. ;)
Azuth could be the traitor, and it would perfectly fit with his portfolio. Here is why.
Azuth is the god of wizards, not just weave users, but also users of the shadow weave. Perhaps Mystra had been pressuring him to work against people that he sees himself as representing, and since new Mystras had always arisen in the past, thought nothing of this Mystra being killed and having a new one with new policies come along.
-I'm not exactly getting that logic.
-Heh, I was just playing Clue the other day.
Heh, yeah, me too.;)
-You know that'd be kind of fun. Who'd be a good Forgotten Realms deity to "head" an investigation into the murder of Mystra? Oghma, maybe?
"It was Cyric, in Dweomerheart, with Razor's Edge!"
Now "Army monopoly" :PI really admire that you guys are trying to make sense out of it all though. In honor to that I'll give it a shot:
What about Adon I'm pretty sure he was kicking it in Dweomerheart at the time. And it's not too far farfetched(compared to some stuff here) that he might have a residual of maddness that Cyric gave him ....
Well you know I like COL. mustard cuz y'know military and all that. I always loose in Clue tho.
-I usually play Colonel Mustard as well. And, I also lost both games we played. I am too embarrassed to say how I lost the second one, though...:embarrass
What about Adon I'm pretty sure he was kicking it in Dweomerheart at the time. And it's not too far farfetched(compared to some stuff here) that he might have a residual of maddness that Cyric gave him ....
-An interesting idea. The only thing, though- and mind you, I might be wrong, since it's been a while since I read the book- Adon, when he died, he was "faithless". Cyric made him insane, and when he died, he died cursing Mystra, or something to that effect, causing him to be absorbed into the Wall, and not go to Mystra's domain. Very sick, even for Cyric.
If not don't mind me I've Tru hell lately and my head is not where it should be :P
-Hope everything is well.
-Hope everything is well.
No, not really in actuallity nothing is going well, but as they say back home:
The best thing that God made is one day after the other
On Topic: I would like if someone around here can prove me right or wrong since I had to get rid of my ToT novels (small barracks room and all).
It's been a while for me to but IIRC They got him out of the wall to have him as a witness(?) Cuz I remember him begging Mystra for forgiveness (probably after Cyric read "The True Life") or something.
If not don't mind me I've Tru hell lately and my head is not where it should be :P
Ya, I think you're right - this is from The Trial of Cyric novel or something like that. Cyric destroyed the love between Kelemvor and Mystra (which was his job after all), but the good thing about it was that it allowed Adon to regain his sanity. Cyric drove Adon mad and made him renounce Mystra just before he died. Adon looked thru the eyes of Kelemvor, saw Mystra as a goddess, and returned to her worship.
Aaahhh, but maybe that was Cyric's plan all along - to place a plant in Dweomerheart.
Cool plot twist, dude.
To the earlier, side tangent regarding Mystril's successor. Sources are contradictory.
The Arcane Age novels had a meddlesome and mysterious young caster if memory serves (only ever glanced at them, don't know a lot for certain). Campaign supplements mention a peasant with archmage potential and Greenwood when directly asked said a severely mentally damaged (read vegetable or close to it) farm girl who caught Mystril's essence by good fortune. Pick whichever works for you, I find that I have limited fondness for Greenwood's account of events but then I have limited fondness for a great deal these days.
-Alright, so Adon is/was in Dweomerheart, then. He could be a "sleeper" agent, having actually been inflicted with Cyric's madness all that time. That's a cool twist.
I guess reading Thunderbolts all these years paid off :D It's all about the shockers baby! :P
I guess reading Thunderbolts all these years paid off :D It's all about the shockers baby! :P
-Ah, nothing like a super hero team made of villains. That's apparently what we're turning Dweomerheart into.
To the earlier, side tangent regarding Mystril's successor. Sources are contradictory.
The Arcane Age novels had a meddlesome and mysterious young caster if memory serves (only ever glanced at them, don't know a lot for certain). Campaign supplements mention a peasant with archmage potential and Greenwood when directly asked said a severely mentally damaged (read vegetable or close to it) farm girl who caught Mystril's essence by good fortune. Pick whichever works for you, I find that I have limited fondness for Greenwood's account of events but then I have limited fondness for a great deal these days.
Thanks for the clarification.
I have to admit, I like the Ed Greenwood "Simple Jack" version of the first Mystra. :P ;)