I don't understand why Elminster is still around at all. I think he should have been killed off with Mystra or Greenwood could write a book titled Elminster Goes Splat.
that said, Blackstaff was more interesting that Elminster, and the current one is by far more intrigueing but EL is still the bombshell mage of the realms
Elminster is the DM of the Realms, and if he is killed off, that violates something that would return the Realms back to Mr. Greenwood.
that said, Blackstaff was more interesting that Elminster, and the current one is by far more intrigueing but EL is still the bombshell mage of the realms
I may be a little behind the times but last I heard El had lost 90% of his power and is now little more than a crochetty semi-senile (imortal) old man who is shacked up with Alasra and making merry. Surley it would be better for El to go out with a bang and hand the reigns of DM of the Realms over to another.
IMO anyway.
Or Elminsters Underwear...
Which Blasckstaff are we talking about here? Between, El and Khelben, id have to go with El as being the more interesting one being that Khel is dead, nothing too interesting about that.
we might not have heard the last of Khelben ARunson the elder or the younger
founding harper
magelord of waterdeep
father of many children
son of Arun Half-elf
born in Myth Drannor
noted Relatives:
Kelbhen " Ravencloak" Arunson The Younger
his twin children
Lareal Arunson
D. Thann
The Current Blackstaff as well
yeah EL is cooler, but Khelben had the all mysterious thing going
Khelben " The Blackstaff" Arunson
founding harper
magelord of waterdeep
father of many children
son of Arun Half-elf
born in Myth Drannor
noted Relatives:
Kelbhen " Ravencloak" Arunson The Younger
his twin children
Lareal Arunson
D. Thann
El is the bomb!
Screw Elminster. Oh wait, Mystra beat me to that one.
Khelben FTW.
Seen as a whole (El vs the Blackstaff as a function) they are about equal.
Gomez
Khelben may have been born in Myth Drannor but El took part in creating the Mythal (in addition to causing a lot of trouble... and probably children knowing El). For me that is better. El is also a damn sight more of a "people" person than Khelben. Although, I do have to say that I prefer Khelben's choice of romantic partner to El's.
Screw Elminster. Oh wait, Mystra beat me to that one.
That should be points in Els favor right there!
And Dwalimor Omen is better than either of them.
Dwalimor is cool, but thats not one of the choices! He could still be around in the Realms somewhere, chances are he wasnt in Halruua when it xploded.
-As for Elminster, he's become almost gimmicky- see the upcomming, "Elminster Must Die!" name (as of right now) of his next novel for evidence of just that. While he may have never to have been intended to become what he is currently, the fact remains that he is what he is, regardless of intentions. For me, it is all summed up by paraprasing a scene in the last book of Ed Greenwood's The Knights of Myth Drannor trilogy. Khelben and Elminster meet up somewhere, and the two get into a bit of a tiff over something. Mystra makes an "appearance", in which (I am paraphrasing), she says something along the lines of, "No, I like Elminster the best." In a world in which many of his adventures have been, dare I say, zany, quirky, and somewhat over-the-top, it gets hard to take the character, and the pen that is doing the writing, seriously sometimes. As I said, the intent for Elminster to be such a character might not have been there initially, but activley perpetuating certain tropes doesn't help.
Meh, you're just mad because his sense of humor goes right over your head most of the time.
Meh, you're just mad because his sense of humor goes right over your head most of the time.
-It doesn't have much to do with jokes that the character says. I find the character 'over the top', taking away from his believability. The signs on his front lawn, for example.
I enjoy reading about both of them. I enjoy stories about Khelben because he was flawed, he was deeply in love and you could count on him to not always be a good guy. He had an agenda and he stuck to it, for good or ill.
On the other hand, I like reading stories that feature Elminster's absolute faith when it comes to making threats. That is, he doesn't make threats, but promises, with the kind of complete and utter confidence that only long experience and the favor of the (then) most powerful goddess in the pantheon could provide.
Having them both in a story is the best, then.
I like reading stories where Elminster needles Khelben. Whether it's by Elminster bypassing Khelben's wards and teleporting into Khelben's tower uninvited, or when Elminster all but banishes Khelben away so that he can deal with a problem himself. It's one part seeing the arrogant Khelben put in his place, and several parts hinting that there's power, and then there's power.
Makes you wonder at the gap in experience between the two. And what it is that drives each of them.
Though, I would like to explore your point with El'. Especially where he "needles" the blackstaff.
So, in shorter words and to the point, you are for El'.
You know I gotta say right now I'm for both of them. I know this is an "either/or" thread but I'm taking the edge of the coin on this one.
Though, I would like to explore your point with El'. Especially where he "needles" the blackstaff.
If the OP doesn't mind, go ahead and shoot.
Oh and Khel reminds me of "House" (the doctor TV character) a little. Not a nice person, but a fun and entertaining character and probably more "realistic" than El because of his flaws.
-This, more or less, hits the nail on the head. Though we are told that Elminster has flaws- and he does- the guilt that comes with having outlived many of your own friends and family, the guilt of having lived so long that you've seen numerous promising students come and go, the "pain" that comes with having to exercise a duty for so long that you don't necessarily want to, but are obliged to, the "pain" of having to be a part of monumental events when you don't necessarily want to, and so on, these are flaws that we can associate with much like we have weaknesses that Superman has. That is to say, associating with Superman's weakness of kryptonite isn't very reassuring when the man excells far beyond human capacity on virtually every other field. While Khelben also "suffered" from many of the same things as Elminster, his character was never particularly billed as a Superman-esque character- again, regardless of original intentions. Though he held tremendous powers, the aspects of life that Khelben is most famous for are his yearning and desire to be accepted by his estranged Elven family, his tender and caring love for his wife, Laerael, his actions when seeking a goal in which he knew he had to do something, but the only way to do it was to associate with people who aren't necessarily moral paragons.
-These are things that we, as everyday people, can better associate and symathize with- we all have estranged family members, or family members who we might not have the best relations with. We all have someone to love and care for, if we're lucky, or fantasize of meeting/having such a person. We all, at some point in our lives, are confronted with choices where 'right' and 'wrong' aren't simply black and white. As he's been written, Khelben is a great deal more realistic, and as such, empathizable, so to speak. While Elminster does indeed have all of these things built into his character, though intent or not, such things have been deemphasized over the more fantastic and unrealistic parts of his persona and character- can anyone here really emphasize with bedding (and exaggeration for the point) every woman you've ever known? Being "in-charge" and knowing it nearly everywhere you go? Being a celebrity, so to speak, among the powerful and influential?
I think thats El's way of dealing with being a Chosen. Because being a Chosen is not all that it's cracked up to be. Just ask Fzoul...
Yeah. They can't even get his hair color right!
larloch is an ambivalent when it comes to good vs evil , even more so than khelben ; serves and revers a LN and then a NG goddess even though he is refered to as evil through and through. he is tragic, pitifull, loathsome and yet he is awe inspiring and powerfull.
maybe he is no chosen but he was definetly in good terms with his patron; he did recieve gifts (such as nether scrolls) from that goddess , he is supremely powerfull , almost as powerfull as a chosen (if one disregards silver flames)
as super powerfull mages go, i think larloch beats them all when it comes to being 'interesting' or 'cool' or 'mysterious' .
larloch is an ambivalent when it comes to good vs evil , even more so than khelben ; serves and revers a LN and then a NG goddess even though he is refered to as evil through and through. he is tragic, pitifull, loathsome and yet he is awe inspiring and powerfull.
maybe he is no chosen but he was definetly in good terms with his patron; he did recieve gifts (such as nether scrolls) from that goddess , he is supremely powerfull , almost as powerfull as a chosen (if one disregards silver flames)
If given the choice, I would've gone with Larloch also. He's my favorite mage in the Realms.
For those who questioned my choice of Elminster over Khelben, I really don't find Khelben interesting or compelling. Even his historical ancestors don't make Khelben all that interesting, IMO.
Elminster, on the other hand, he's intriguing as a sort of "Eternal Man" who tries to make his way through life, through unending years, decades, centuries. In that way, he's a bit like the cursed Longinus of biblical myth. I've liked those types of characters ever since I saw the old Star Trek episode, "Requiem for Methuselah" as a child. What is the life of a man like, one who has lived as "Brahms, Leonardo da Vinci, Soloman, Alexander, Lazarus, Methuselah, Merlin, Abramson, and a hundred others"? That's fascinating to even think about. Add in magic and a relationship to Mystra, Elminster is very compelling.
given the option though, I think I too would of said Larloch instead of Elmisnter or Arunson
Hey Dookie,
And I would see this as another reason why El' is a far "faker" character than Khelben in all reagrds.
Indeed, heaven forbid that there be a person of genuine power and import who still retained a conscience and something approaching moral integrity...
Again, you speak of the represented concept and not how he is actually depicted as a person when narrated. Again, I agree with Karsus on this point.
De gustibus non disputandum.
In this case, perception is more important than depiction. Literature, especially fantasy literature, never really rises to the point of philosophy as far as arguments of "correctness" are concerned.
Authors can present characters in very specific ways, give detailed depictions with extensive narration, but the individual reader will always perceive things in their own way. Truthfully, they can't do anything else. The fact that there are multiple ways of perceiving Elminster, that's actually a strength of the characterization: it engenders debate, which increases popularity, even when there can be no dispute in matters of taste.
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Hello. I had to remove some content from this thread because it contained inappropriate content, or referenced material that was deleted for that reason.
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Why was my post deleted? I referenced a novel. If thats inappropiate, then why was that novel published!?
Why do i even bother?
... there are so many khelben books, so many el books yet no larloch books.. there are szass tam books too now but he really bores, frightens or disgusts me. give me a larloch book and i would devour itThe fact that there are multiple ways of perceiving Elminster...
-Are there? Think about it for a moment.
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a book about larloch...that would ve been great
Nods head in agreement. We have some of Larloch's back history sure, but I wouldn't mind one bit reading it all in gory detail.
On topic: I'm still equal parts liking Elminster and Khelben. It's all good, IMO.
The fact that there are multiple ways of perceiving Elminster...
-Are there? Think about it for a moment.
You might want to take your own advice there and perhaps try to look at him in a different light. There are always multiple ways of looking at any issue or person, depending on interpretation, where weight is placed on the history... just the sheer volume of information on the man says there's a huge variety of ways of looking at him.
Why was my post deleted? I referenced a novel. If thats inappropiate, then why was that novel published!?
Why do i even bother?
-I can't tell you why your post was deleted, but no, there is not a prohibition against discussing novels, the events that unfold within, or the characters who appear.
You might want to take your own advice there and perhaps try to look at him in a different light...
-I asked Therise something specific. I think that she'll understand the "hidden meaning", so to speak.
-I can't tell you why your post was deleted, but no, there is not a prohibition against discussing novels, the events that unfold within, or the characters who appear.
Its because I was talking about Els enchanted undergarments. IT was relevant though because for me that was points in Els favor, some people though are offended at the mention of said under garments. Oops i did it again!
Well, hun, personal taste may be the subject of the post, but the tide had turned to explain why certain tastes were incorrect. No sense in trying to pull a switchback now.
Since when can personal tastes be "incorrect"?
-I wouldn't call it an "in-joke" or anything, but I think she, and maybe like one or two other people know what I mean. If even.
It's a little vague... maybe give me a little more context.
-If you don't get it, never mind, don't worry. It stems from a "speech" made a few months ago or so.
I'll ask by PM, in case it's what I think it might be.
Let's try this: You come into a gaming group and are handed the stats and brief history of a PC the DM wants you to play. Is the character cooler on paper or when you play it?
-Not directed towards me, I know, but in the spirit of discussion...I'd definitley say the latter. Going through the books, looking up feats, and equipment and all of that stuff for your character is fun, to a point, but the best part has got to be writing up that character's history, and, when everything is said and done, actually bringing that character to life.