Obviously the game mechanics for Eladrin and Elves are pretty nice. I am hoping that something is done with the elves of FR (at least in one region) that makes them different so I would want to play one. To give an example of what I mean in Eberron the elves there can come from several areas and have different (much different) idealogies than their counterparts. One group are mercs/warlords that work in a tribal system where your way with a blade is one of the most important thing and battle and ancestor worship is the key to everything. The other group live on an island where they worship their
"living" ancestors and have a strong hatred for dragons and undead even though they have plenty of ghosts (ancestors spirits) floating around. Then there are city elves that adopt a country and attitude of the region they live in. They are the least "elflike" of all their brethern.
I don't want FR elves to be copies of what I just said though. I hope a new spin can be taken on some of them though. How will the moon and sun elves feel about their new abilities and appearance? Will they start working with the fey communities more and distance themselves from "ordinary" elves?
I hope something is done to put a spark into the elves of Faerun because for me I have thought they were pretty bland. Again I think that might have been due to their representation in novels and people carrying the stereotype too fat. Hopefully some of this will end.
Anyone else feel the same way? I already know who some of the elf lovers out there are but was wondering if anyone (besides Stigger) felt the same way about FR elves that I did.
I don't want this to be a rag on elves thread folks. Just offer opinions or ideas on how you might "improve" on the FR Elf or things you would like to see done with them.
P.S. Just thought about it. Elaith and Vartan (FR comic) are the only elves
I liked in FR. So I guess there is some hope. ;)
Though, the Grugach -are- rather barbaric, totem spirits and stuff. They've got a tribal system, whereas Gold Elves have a more advanced system.
.Sun Elves aren't woodsy at all
They're more woodsy than humans=)
They're more woodsy than humans=)
No, they are more city-minded than humans, they happen to have better cities, that's all. And even the most poor Sun Elf owns lots of books to read.
. I now am pretty much blaming the novels for this feeling and hope the newer books can help me get into the elves with the new edition since I do like them mechanically.I don't feel they are portrayed as woodsy as much as I think they are portrayed as arrogant, stuck up so and so's. I don't belive this is the truth but again I blame the novels.
I know the description and have been a fan of the setting since 1987. My overal feel of elves has always been
I don't feel they are portrayed as woodsy as much as I think they are portrayed as arrogant, stuck up so and so's. I don't belive this is the truth but again I blame the novels.
Elaine's novels are the best to read about elves. The second Song & Sword novel has a Sun Elf Spellsinger that is friend of a human pirate and taughts Danilo this secret art, and he never shows any arrogance at all, just a perfectly understandable sense of protecting that art, until Danilo shows him he is not going to corrupt that gift.
Elaine's novels are the best to read about elves. The second Song & Sword novel has a Sun Elf Spellsinger that is friend of a human pirate and taughts Danilo this secret art, and he never shows any arrogance at all, just a perfectly understandable sense of protecting that art, until Danilo shows him he is not going to corrupt that gift.
Yep, I read them all. Still no help. I like Elaith best of all but the others just seem like clones of each other. Like I said this is a peronal thing. I feel like most of the writeups now that I look at them leave me
as well as what I read in the novels. I do have a feeling we will get at least one new group of elves in 4E FR that will change my mind. I am sure they will keep the other groups the same but one in particular will pop up to distinguish themselves (at least in my eyes ;) ).Yep, I read them all. Still no help. I like Elaith best of all but the others just seem like clones of each other. Like I said this is a peronal thing. I feel like most of the writeups now that I look at them leave me
Well, there is a reason for that. Don't forget that elves are closer in thinking that other races thanks to reveire. That's why they have less infighting among them than other races, they follow the ethos of the Seldarine a lot more than other sentients.
I'm also thinking that the Vishaan could have become that mad by lacking the capacity to reveire.
18DELTA ;)
Though, the Grugach -are- rather barbaric, totem spirits and stuff. They've got a tribal system, whereas Gold Elves have a more advanced system.
You also have the Elves of the Yuir Wood who once worshipped the Yuir Totems (beside the Totem spirits/Beast Cults mentioned in Evermeet). Also, the southern Elves of Zakhara worship the 'Enlightened Gods' of that region, and the Wild Elves of Maztica worship the Maztican Pantheon.
Don't get the stuffy, stereotypical Elves of Faerûn confused with the Elves of Toril - most of the others don't bother with the Seldarine.
In fact, I think those ones from the Moonshaes worship the Fey Gods (but I may be mistaken - they do seem to have a much greater connection to Faerie there).
Also, that Star Elf chick in Dark Vision and Stardeep wasn't very typical at all - an obnoxious drunk female warrior.
In fact, I think those ones from the Moonshaes worship the Fey Gods (but I may be mistaken - they do seem to have a much greater connection to Faerie there).
-Not specifically members of the Seelie Court. Many Elves hold dual allegiances to the Seelie Court and the Seldarine at the same time, being as that the two groups are closely allied, and the "lines" sometimes cross between the two.
Also, that Star Elf chick in Dark Vision and Stardeep wasn't very typical at all - an obnoxious drunk female warrior.
-G-d, I hated her. Kyril Duskmourn.
One of the few FR Elves that ever held my interest. :D
But that figures - I also like Kymil Nimeson (sp?), K'narlist (sp?), and Elaith Craulnober.
I used to like Drizzt, but he's turned into a wuss.
I have read most of the official stuff at some point and time and have laways been left uninspired. I am hoping they work on the Moonshae elves a bit in 4E and make it something I will enjoy.
He talks about this: http://www.forgottenrealmsvault.com/boards/viewforum.php?f=6
Back to topic at hand though. I feel like the feywild thing is possibly a good step, but not the conversion of all Moon and gold to Eladrin. Sure, Teshurr did it in the Last Mythal, but that was one High Mage combating an army of Fey'ri. Anyway, I also feel that "lumping" subraces together kind of blurs the lines of the subraces in a way. The difference between a wild elf, a wood elf, and a dark elf now become a name, rather than cultural. While Moon elves and Gold elves will probably just be thought of as the same.
I noticed that no one mentioned the Archwizards Trilogy or the Last Mythal. Was I the only one who liked either of those series?
-Being that those two are commonly cited as the "least liked" trilogies by numerous people, you might just be. ;)
Anyway I am fine with the elves from Fairie turning into eladrin because of the Plague and the feywild. I hope there is a little more to it and the elves feel a bit more distinctive to me in the newer books.
I just can't stomache the subject matter.
And yet, as much as I dislike Elves and Shadowcrap, the Elves of my Homebrew world (the Maeladrin) are a cross between the Shades and haughty Sun Elves.
Go figure.
LOL...
One of the few FR Elves that ever held my interest. :D
But that figures - I also like Kymil Nimeson (sp?), K'narlist (sp?), and Elaith Craulnober.
I used to like Drizzt, but he's turned into a wuss.
I like Fox-at-Twilight.....
Yeah, she's cool.
Her, The Drunk Chick, That Monk And Ryld are the only elves tha I care(d?) for, Oh Oh And Thamalon's Dauther...
I'd suggest maybe getting a hold of the Changeling: the Dreaming books on Sidhe (The Book of Houses 1 & 2, and the Book of Lost Houses in particular) in .pdf for a different take on elves that could provide some new inspiration or perspective on how they could be.
I like Fox-at-Twilight.....
ditto. One of the coolest names around. I liked many of the characters in Depths of Madness
ditto. One of the coolest names around. I liked many of the characters in Depths of Madness
Speaking of FR Elves in print, I am looking forward to see what some of the creative minds in charge of the Moonshae Isles, Aglarond and Luruar regions in Living Forgotten Realms do with them.
The writing directors for each of the regions have a pretty impressive body of work imho. I think there'll be plenty of interesting elven and eladrin NPCs floating around before too long.
Joe
Speaking of FR Elves in print, I am looking forward to see what some of the creative minds in charge of the Moonshae Isles, Aglarond and Luruar regions in Living Forgotten Realms do with them.
what minds? what backround?
-Being that those two are commonly cited as the "least liked" trilogies by numerous people, you might just be. ;)
They were both the best trilogies I've read in years!!
I noticed that no one mentioned the Archwizards Trilogy or the Last Mythal. Was I the only one who liked either of those series?
Pretty much. Though I preferred the Last Mythal to the Archwizards which was completely unreadable
They were both the best trilogies I've read in years!!
-Myrkul has company, then.
what minds? what backround?
Creighton Broadhurst (Luruar), Scott Horn (Aglarond) and JP Chapleau (Moonshae Isles) are the writing directors for the aforementioned regions and are all excellent authors.
God knows how many people applied for the positions, but only 12 LFR writing directors were appointed the world over, so I guess there's an expectation of quality anyway. Having played adventures they have written, however, I'm pretty sure that elves in those regions won't be anywhere near as generic or bland as some on this thread have suggested.
Joe
-I hope they read Elves of Faerûn...
;)Since Living Forgotten Realms is a 4E campaign Karsus, and iirc you've said you're not converting, it's a shame that you won't get a chance to experience the new Luruar, Aglarond and Moonshae adventures... :P
Joe
...Luruar, Aglarond and Moonshae adventures... :P
-I never particularly liked the Silver Marches or Aglarond. The Moonshaes, they're okay.
I mean, you have plenty of examples of elves sitting back and sipping honeywine while discussing the finer points of life and how humans are lowbrow savages, but where are all the scenes of moon elves hunting down their prey and eating it raw in what could only be described as a macabre art performance; or sea elf warbands outswimming a pirate ship like dolphins and crawling up on the deck with their weapons and teeth bared, water flowing through pulsating gills as they refill their lungs with air and close in for the kill?
Elves aren't nice people. The surface subraces are every bit as honed-to-perfection killing machines as the drow are, and every bit as uncaring to how lesser races might view their customs.
LOL...
One of the few FR Elves that ever held my interest. :D
But that figures - I also like Kymil Nimesin, K'narlist (sp?), and Elaith Craulnober.
also Jander Sundstar
Elves aren't nice people.
-Of course they are.
-And, I notice a lot of misperceptions being thrown around. I implore everyone to read Elves of Faerûn.
HINT
-I hope they read Elves of Faerûn...
the what?
-I never particularly liked the Silver Marches or Aglarond. The Moonshaes, they're okay.
I liked the Silver Marches. The 3.0 supplement was excellent
-For those of you who like Fox-At-Twilight, her stats are now up in Elves of Faerûn.
cool
-Yup. Made up by Mr. de Bie and Mr. Costa, with express permission to be included in EoF.
and you will not 4e her stats?
and you will not 4e her stats?
From her stats I can say: it can't be done.
...Fox-At-Twilight
I never read Depths of Madness, but I did read the short story with her character in the Realms of the Elves anthology. I can't say that I really cared much for the name or the character, really. Seemed a bit cliche in dialogue and characterization, and something of a Mary Sue type. It was like she was a lvl 20 character running side-by-side with a lvl 10, considering the presentation of the story. After seeing her stats... imo she is rather overpowered (at -1hp, immediately regain 3d6hp+con mod, or something like that... yeesh), but it did explain her miraculous "revival" after being taken out in the story.
and you will not 4e her stats?
-I'm not 4eing anyone's stats.
-I'm not 4eing anyone's stats.
not even mine
not even mine
-You're not an Elf, now are you?
Anyway I don't think it is hard to RP an elf in Faerun with all the content available, and I find there is a lot of room for diversity in character within the subraces themselves. I have roleplayed elven NPCs in Faerun (though mostly of the aquatic kind) and my players never really complained about them being too alike or their personalities being stagnant. It is all on how much effort you put.
I suspect Rauric's point was that the 'official' sources made them too cookie-cutter and didn't offer much variation between them as far as he could tell. While I don't agree with the assessment overly much, don't read novels, so couldn't speak to that point, I can see where he'd come to that conclusion. Elves in the Realms, as far as I'm concerned anyway, aren't really so much identical as lackluster. Could have been much better portrayed imnsho.
-Not particularly there, either. As was mentioned, Fox-At-Twilight isn't a Kyril Duskmourn, who isn't a Galaeron Nihmedu, who isn't a Queen Amlauril...
What's Living Forgotten Realms?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/news/20070905a
Plus I think that the very casual use of elves in 3E stripped them of much of their mystery.
Not just overexposure, no. We have elves that try to get pregnant by humans just so they can use a blood-bound weapon, elves that share some of the greatest secrets of their people with strangers with little regard (and gold elves at that), we have people running around using high magic like an afterthought; I am sorry but these elves are so out of racial character just so they can adapt to the plotline, that it gets ridiculous.
They are not out of character. You just simply need to understand that there are always exceptions when it comes to personality, and it's those exceptions who make the whole more interesting.
Plus I think that the very casual use of elves in 3E stripped them of much of their mystery.
My thoughts exactly! The Realms are becoming TOO cosmopolitan! Should be more like when Frodo and the Hobbits meet the elves in the beginning!
My thoughts exactly! The Realms are becoming TOO cosmopolitan! Should be more like when Frodo and the Hobbits meet the elves in the beginning!
No, I hate when DMs tell you you can't play elves because "they are rare". I love FR's cosmopolitan feeling.
I just find it weird when people trust strangers with secrets like the fact the Everaska has a mythal (something not even all the citizens should be aware of by lore), that any random mage can bring his friends to evermeet for a picnic, and that gold elves of all people discuss Aryvandaar with strangers (when normally they do their utmost best to ignore the topic even among their closest companions). People certainly can have different personalities, but frivolously breaking cultural taboos is certainly uncharacteristic.
Never happened.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/news/20070905a
Thank you very much.
Not just overexposure, no. We have elves that try to get pregnant by humans just so they can use a blood-bound weapon, elves that share some of the greatest secrets of their people with strangers with little regard (and gold elves at that), we have people running around using high magic like an afterthought; I am sorry but these elves are so out of racial character just so they can adapt to the plotline, that it gets ridiculous.
-The fact that they're acting out of racial character shows that the race isn't like that.
I know it is out of character because I have access to past resources that contradict their behaviour and establish these taboos. However the lore provided in 3E FR does not reinforce those behaviours and the literature blatantly contradicts them without though effectively retconning those behaviours nor making any significant attempts to imprint that said behaviours are not simply quirky but actually against racial morality. So it fails to establish racial character by perception though the antithesis. The resultant confusion is therefore justified.
There are always those who run against the norm. It shouldn't confuse you.
Not only that Stigger. The behaviour of elves in accesories and novels just changed between editions with no justification. The reasonable and characteristic behaviours of races and subraces of the elven people have been constantly invalidated by alternate behaviour without solid recognition that said behaviour is not the norm. Someone whose experience with the FR elves is 3E novels and accessories would not be able to form a clear identity for the elven people. People need to stop thinking about what they know about the FR elves, considering the vast resources they have available, and try to recreate those images using only recent material and novels. I am quite confident such reconstruction is infeasible.
That's why some of us are making Elves of Faerun.
No, I hate when DMs tell you you can't play elves because "they are rare". I love FR's cosmopolitan feeling.
That's no hindrance. You can play whatever you want, it's how everyone else perceives you, imo. You still allow people to play genasi even if they are bloody rare. Also, half-elves annoy me. Disgusting brats.
That is a stupid excuse for not allowing a race... and I like half-elves myself. Ears are great for places to hold onto... :D
Bah! Humans!;p
That was pretty much the case with most things in 3e really... beyond what happened in novels, I don't recall a great deal of it giving us much that was new. Rephrased, reiterated, and repackaged, certainly, but precious little truly new stuff that wasn't thematic around how Shar was 'The Man', so to speak.
-Unfortunately.
Also, half-elves annoy me. Disgusting brats.
-I can sympathize.
Pretty much Stig. ;) Just an opinion I had about FR elves. I am not saying these feelings should be felt by anyone else...
Oh, I thought that was EXACTLY what you were trying to say--I gotcha now. :P
It is usually fun when a you can read a writeup and you immediately wish to play that race or play a pc from a area or region that appeals to you.
Agreed! It's fun and exciting when that happens.
-I can sympathize.
-Lynnae is the only Half-Elf I like. No others.
-Lynnae is the only Half-Elf I like. No others.
I suppose I should consider that an honor.;)
Please return discussion to the topic of the thread. Thanks.
18DELTA ;)
-Don't 3.5 FR Sun Elves live in cities, and not trees?
Yes, only few groups of Sun Elves have diffferent ways of living.
Yes, only few groups of Sun Elves have diffferent ways of living.
-Cool thats what I thought.
Can't have mis-information getting out that ALL THE ELVES live in tree cities. 18DELTA
-Don't 3.5 FR Sun Elves live in cities, and not trees?
-Depends. Some live in large, elaborate, elegant cities, like Leuthilspar, whereas others don't, like the savage Sun Elves of the jungle city of Lyrandrar.
-That said...illegal activities? Just what in the hell was going on while I was gone!? What's wrong with you people!
:P