Right now my group are in 13th level, and the atual quest is to save a Tomr Invoker who was arrested in Wheloon (Campaing Setting pg 105). I think that just the idea of city-prision is a wounderfull source for adventure, but for this I`d like to plan a long quest (4 sessions) and make the cenario the richiest possible.
So I ask to you for ideas. How do you think Wheloon works?
- There is Cormyr Soldiers there? Or it`s just a locked place rulled by it`s own gangs?
- How many gangs there is in the town, and how is the power play?
- Who are the spot people in the city?
- How the Shar church operates in there? It`s like a central power?
- The people in there are usually gulty ones, or the city it`s just a great simbol of a crescent near paranoia fear from shar?
I hope you can give-me some ideias. Just for point, the Invoker is Inocent.
More information about wheloon can be found here http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wheloon
Thanks!
To access the module, you'll need to be a member of the RPGA and download it, but the RPGA is free.
Cheers,
Christopher
I`m running a Forgotten Realms Campaing a long time now, wich theme is the battle between the forces of Netheril and other northern nations, like Luruar and Cormyr.
Right now my group are in 13th level, and the atual quest is to save a Tomr Invoker who was arrested in Wheloon (Campaing Setting pg 105). I think that just the idea of city-prision is a wounderfull source for adventure, but for this I`d like to plan a long quest (4 sessions) and make the cenario the richiest possible.
So I ask to you for ideas. How do you think Wheloon works?
- There is Cormyr Soldiers there? Or it`s just a locked place rulled by it`s own gangs?
- How many gangs there is in the town, and how is the power play?
- Who are the spot people in the city?
- How the Shar church operates in there? It`s like a central power?
- The people in there are usually gulty ones, or the city it`s just a great simbol of a crescent near paranoia fear from shar?
I hope you can give-me some ideias. Just for point, the Invoker is Inocent.
More information about wheloon can be found here http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wheloon
Thanks!
there are no official answers so your better off making it up on your own. the ddi info doesnt have anything about that city and the FRCG doesnt have the details you want so they dont exist. no novels take place there either that i have read.
- There is Cormyr Soldiers there? Or it`s just a locked place rulled by it`s own gangs?
That's up to you, I'd say. There are at least soldiers and War Wizards observing the city to make sure no one gets out, but if there are any stationed in the city, I don't recall. It's quite likely, though.
- How many gangs there is in the town, and how is the power play?
However many you want there to be. More than a few, I suspect. As for the power structure, some may struggle for dominance while others settle for merely scraping together a decent lifestyle. In the end, it's the Cormyrians who call the shots.
- Who are the spot people in the city?
Again, we haven't been given any solid information (to my knowledge). The gang leaders are obviously big names (except perhaps the up-and-comers wishing to keep their identities hidden). Moles in Cormyr's employ shouldn't be well known, but their existence should be rumored (so if you could join up with one, it would help.) Sharrans might also gain prestige amongst the shadiest prisoners.
- How the Shar church operates in there? It`s like a central power?
Honestly, I would expect they were scattered once the Cormyrians found them out. If a few remained, they would be very low-key (even for Sharrans). They wouldn't make their presence known to anyone but the most desperate, broken souls in all Wheloon. They might very well have some control over certain gang leaders or members, but I don't think any of the gangs should realize that.
- The people in there are usually gulty ones, or the city it`s just a great simbol of a crescent near paranoia fear from shar?
I little bit of both, I suspect. Question though: What was the Invoker's supposed "crime"? Was his trial botched, or was he shipped there entirely by accident?
there are no official answers so your better off making it up on your own. the ddi info doesnt have anything about that city and the FRCG doesnt have the details you want so they dont exist. no novels take place there either that i have read.
Well, hate to disagree, but as I said above, there are official answers to quite a few of those questions. LFR modules are canon.
Cheers,
Christopher
Christopher, I'm not actually familiar with LFR rules. Would my advice to flaviobonanome be legal (as in, he can add elements to it as he sees fit), or does a DM have to run it exactly as it's written?
Well, there is a concept in the RPGA called "DME" (Dungeon Master Empowerment, I think), but I don't think it's really applicable here. The OP is looking for lore, really, not a written module--at least that's my read.
So I think what she or he would want to do is look at the home play rules at the RPGA/LFR site for a good faith way to get a copy of that module, then use what they learned from it to homebrew what they needed.
Cheers,
Christopher
Well, there is a concept in the RPGA called "DME" (Dungeon Master Empowerment, I think), but I don't think it's really applicable here. The OP is looking for lore, really, not a written module--at least that's my read.
Which yet again raises the question of why the RPGA is, at the moment, seemingly the only place to get this lore.
Why is this the case?
Well, there is a concept in the RPGA called "DME" (Dungeon Master Empowerment, I think), but I don't think it's really applicable here. The OP is looking for lore, really, not a written module--at least that's my read.
So I think what she or he would want to do is look at the home play rules at the RPGA/LFR site for a good faith way to get a copy of that module, then use what they learned from it to homebrew what they needed.
Cheers,
Christopher
Ah, I see. Thanks.
Well, hate to disagree, but as I said above, there are official answers to quite a few of those questions. LFR modules are canon.
Cheers,
Christopher
lfr doesnt count (even though those people say it does). how can it count if a regular person cant get it and have to jump through hoops to get it. I started to sign up so i could be a part of it and get some of this mystical lfr info but there were so many hoops just for something so irrelevant that i stopped bothering. thats like a mechanic telling me he knows how to fix my car but then telling me he doesnt want my business. i know ive asked questions that have supposedly answers in lfr stuff but when you try to get lfr info and you are a nonmember no one helps you (even when people say they will). they cant have their cake and eat it too.
Which yet again raises the question of why the RPGA is, at the moment, seemingly the only place to get this lore.
Why is this the case?
I'm not sure whether you're speaking of the lore in the LFR modules in general or the particular materials about Wheloon, but I suppose the reason is pretty much the same in either case. I don't have any special insider information, but it seems to me that there are probably several reasons why the lore is where it is. These are just educated guesses, mind.
- Along with the now-monthly material appearing in DDI, it's a place to continue to add new Forgotten Realms lore despite the current "three and out" publishing schedule for campaign materials produced and distributed through the old traditional bound printed matter channels.
- It's an extra reward for the hard work the LFR module writers put in--after the material vetted by the Realms team at Wizards, these folks have contributed new, official world-building to the setting they love.
- It adds value to participation in the RPGA, especially as a Dungeon Master, to get access to these materials (which, again, are free). By all reports, the RPGA is thriving at historical levels--maybe an influx of Realms fans is part of that. I know it's why I joined up (came for the lore, stayed for the fun).
lfr doesnt count (even though those people say it does). how can it count if a regular person cant get it and have to jump through hoops to get it. I started to sign up so i could be a part of it and get some of this mystical lfr info but there were so many hoops just for something so irrelevant that i stopped bothering.
Well, I'm a regular person, and my experience has been different than yours. I didn't have any trouble signing up or figuring out how to get modules to run for my friends. As for "those people" saying it "counts," they're the same people who've always decided what material is and isn't part of official campaign continuity.
Right now, there are four sources for 4th Edition Realmslore. The game books and module have been out and available for a year. On top of that, there are three that have new material. The novels and anthologies, with new ones being released each month. DDI, with new material appearing each month. RPGA modules, with new ones appearing almost weekly. There's a tremendous amount of new lore coming out all the time. The RPGA modules are the only ones that don't cost money, and the small amount of time they demand has been a joy for me to spend, personally.
Cheers,
Christopher
I didn't know there was a LFR module about that, although it's a very obvious flavor, so my ideas was to discuss and create a whole cenário here. But knowing it's existi will be easier,
I was a RPGA member for many years, but lost my number. Anyway, I can talk to people who still have theris in my game group to get this module.
I think sources like that are very usefull. I appreciate to get something ready and bring it to my terms in game. Anyway, I don't need, and will not follow everything as it's written there, it's just to get some ideas.
Thank you again,
how can it count if a regular person cant get it and have to jump through hoops to get it.
Well, that's an accusation you could make against every source of FR lore.
Printed supplements? You have to jump through the hoop of buying it. Costs you money.
DDI articles? You have to jump through the hoop of getting a subsription. Costs you money
LFR? You have to jump through the hoop of signing up for LFR. At least it's free.
I'm not sure whether you're speaking of the lore in the LFR modules in general or the particular materials about Wheloon, but I suppose the reason is pretty much the same in either case.
FR Lore in general. Now your list carried many intereting items, the first two items do not however address the point of my question which was:
Why is this lore, currently, only available through the RPGA?
Your third point does get near this though...
- It adds value to participation in the RPGA, especially as a Dungeon Master, to get access to these materials (which, again, are free). By all reports, the RPGA is thriving at historical levels--maybe an influx of Realms fans is part of that. I know it's why I joined up (came for the lore, stayed for the fun).
Now that is certainly interesting but I consider it disturbing on two levels. Firstly I would hope that the RPGA is popular enough that it does not need to resort to tactics such as these.
The RPGA modules are the only ones that don't cost money, and the small amount of time they demand has been a joy for me to spend, personally.
Yes, they don't cost money. But they do require a group to play them. You cannot have, I think, more than 6 modules "out" (4 event, 2 home play. I checked) without returning results. This means that for someone interested in the lore, primarily, that without access to a group that is happy to play these modules at some pace, so you can actually get all of the lore and not just fragments, you are effectively stuck. I do not believe this is a good way of distributing this information. Not least because it is inherently stacked against the people who might be interested in the world for its own sake.
LFR? You have to jump through the hoop of signing up for LFR. At least it's free.
And having a group, and running the module, and reporting the results... and all before getting more of the modules. See the longer text above. Passing this off as such a simple transaction is not taking full account of the facts. Or at least the facts as presented by the RPGA section of this website.
As for the rest of your points, about the LFR, I guess you're right about the ratios and so on, though the "resort to these tactics" bit kind of confuses me a little--if the "tactic" was designed to increase RPGA participation and it worked, then... No, actually, I'm gonna stick with "confuses me" on that one. They did something to try to increase interest and it worked, and that's a bad thing?
Finally, I'm sympathetic to what you said about the various things you have to do to get access to the modules. It's true that you have to be a member (which is free), and that you have to DM the modules and report them (though the reporting is a snap, takes less than five minutes). But they're role-playing products, provided to try to increase the number of people playing 4E D&D. The Forgotten Realms have always been published in support of either the gaming or novel arms of TSR/Wizards, haven't they?
I think that mainly the canon lore is in those mods because it supports rich and rewarding game play. Another reason is to entice folks who are interested in learning more about the Realms to participate in the RPGA/LFR, thus increasing the numbers or active D&D players.
What's our disconnect here?
Well, that's an accusation you could make against every source of FR lore.
Printed supplements? You have to jump through the hoop of buying it. Costs you money.
DDI articles? You have to jump through the hoop of getting a subsription. Costs you money
LFR? You have to jump through the hoop of signing up for LFR. At least it's free.
i didnt say it had anything to do with costing money. i dont mind buying things. it is a business after all. if there is something i want i get it. i work i have money. printed book info that have info in them that i want i buy. ddi article info that is relevant i look at since i have a ddi subscritpion. lfr info i cant get. i have to sign up to rpga i have to register for lfr games, i need to take dm tests, i need to have a regular dnd group, i can only get a limited amount of adventures and i dont want to use the adventures i just want to know what is going on in the world. i make up my own games and use my own info but i am a lot like flaviobonanome where i try to use the official info as much as possible so that my players dont get the wrong impression of what the basic FR is (when i change things i let them know after so they dont come here or elsewhere and think that my changes are the official world and get confused). i usually play in the 3e fr since I dont like the 4e fr but right now i am having a time traveling adventure and they are in the future like days of future past. ive asked in the past about where i could find certain 4e fr info and was told that the lfr was where the official info was. given that its the "official" info but only a certain few who are part of the organzation and do stuff for the organization (run games, report games, wrtite games) i have come to doubt its veracity. a guy can claim to have a million dollar lotto ticket but if he refuses to show it to anyone and only claims to show it so some people why should everyone believe him? it is only official to them but not to everyone.
a guy can claim to have a million dollar lotto ticket but if he refuses to show it to anyone and only claims to show it so some people why should everyone believe him?
I don't think anybody's claiming to have a million dollar lottery ticket, Dave. It's more like they're claiming to have a library card. And, far from a "certain few" having access, anybody that wants to do the stuff you have to do get that card can access the materials in the library. The costs of the card aren't monetary, but sure, they exist. I think they're minor, for me, and more than worth it, for me. If they're not for you or others, that's cool too. I think it's a good organization and a good campaign, but sure, it's not for everybody.
The lore developed in novels may well only be available in novels (as exemplified by the undertaking an exhaustive search of various novels as they are reread by myself and others them for the Novel Index on these boards and a Wiki created by LK) but the difference is that anyone with the money can pick up that novel at any time without further constraint than having the money to buy that item. That is it. That constraint is the only one inherent to that distribution method.
This is not true of the LFR method.That distribution method has a different basis, for example you emphasise that it is free. And it is. What it also is is subject to additional limiting factors that the novels, DDi output or sourcebooks are not. Those limiting factors are, as I have already defined:
- The need to join the RPGA (no real biggie here but inserted for completeness).
- The need to download the module. (still no biggie)
- The need to play the module to completion one way or another.
- The need to report.
My problem with the LFR distribution method is not that it is a bad way to run games. It doesn't strike me that it is. What it strikes me as is a bad way to distribute information about the world of the Forgotten Realms. Not surprising since, as you point out, the modules are role-playing products. The point in this is that this deals only with one subdivision of Realms Fans. The kind with the capacity to game. As you say, the Realms have always been published in support of either the gaming or novel arms of their respective owning companies. A non-gamer is perfectly able to buy the sourcebooks or campaign guides. A non-gamer is perfectly able to pick up the novels. A non-gamer is not perfectly able to pick up the modules and thus cannot access the information contained therein (barring subterfuge).
That is the problem with the LFR only lore and that is the point I am highlighting.
The disconnect that we have is that I am interested in the Realms as a world to explore for their own sake and not inherently as part of a game. And for the record, I do play 4E D&D, I do not play 4E Realms. One can be therefore be an "active D&D player" and primarily into the Realms for the Realms themselves.
The disconnect that we have is that I am interested in the Realms as a world to explore for their own sake and not inherently as part of a game.
Excellent post, Iluvrien, thanks for taking the time to put together something so cogent, heartfelt, and well-reasoned.
I'm hopefully not doing you too much of a disservice in teasing out the one tiny bit that I take issue with, and stress that even that's not really a disagreement. I think our disconnect exists elsewhere, and probably has to do with some relatively uninteresting (to folks reading here) things to do with what we each think about the "realeconomik" of the underlying systems that support the creation and publication of new Realmslore.
The reason I'm pulling out this particular sentence of yours, though, is that I want to stress that it's something I'm absolutely in agreement with you about. I, too, am interested in the Realms as a world to explore for their own sake and not inherently as part of a game. As it happens, I, personally, am also interested in exploring them as part of a game and, even more so, as a setting for fiction to read and write, but that seems a trivial difference.
Cheers,
Christopher
Excellent post, Iluvrien, thanks for taking the time to put together something so cogent, heartfelt, and well-reasoned.
Thankyou, I am just glad I managed to get the point across at this time in the morning.
I, too, am interested in the Realms as a world to explore for their own sake and not inherently as part of a game. As it happens, I, personally, am also interested in exploring them as part of a game and, even more so, as a setting for fiction to read and write, but that seems a trivial difference.
I had thought that was the weak point of my post too, so I am not at all inclined to take issue with your teasing it out. That bit was based on my reading of your post, which is always subject to interpretation. I am happy that we seem to be in agreement! Now if only something could be done to rectify the situation.
So now that we've wasted the OP's time discussing the merits and flaws of lore availability through the RPGA, is there anyone out there who has the RPGA info and can share the basics with the OP?
I for one do not have this information... but then someone who does, and sees this thread, and reads about the difficulties of tracking this information down may be inspired to share that information with the OP because of the previous discussion not in spite of it.
Although I do thank you for sharing your opinion, that it has been a waste of the OPs time, even if you do not allege that it has been generally wasteful. I, for one, have found in both interesting and enlightening.
...
-As always, Iluvrien hits all of the points right on their heads.
Hmm. I think we might be talking past each other a bit Illuvrien. The "why" of why is Characteristic X only available in Product Y is that Characteristic X was developed for Product Y, with the users of Product Y primarily in mind, right? The lore in the Forgotten Realms novels is in them because the writers and editors of the novel line develop it and include it in the novels. Why is that lore only available there?
-Not entirely true, if I'm understanding you correctly. Power of Faerûn revealed and elaborated on information pertinent to The Last Mythal trilogy. Grand History of the Realms elaborated on and completed story lines started in Evermeet: Island of the Elves (among other series'). Underdark was written with the events of the War of the Spider Queen series in mind. Conversely, "minor" information from sourcebooks have made their way into novels (obviously)- the Umbral Calyx and Volumvox, were first mentioned in Faiths and Pantheons, and were both later picked up by Paul Kemp in the Twilight War trilogy. Part of the beauty of the entire get-up is that things presented in novels would find their way into sourcebooks, and tidbits mentioned in sourcebooks would be picked up in novels.
And having a group, and running the module, and reporting the results... and all before getting more of the modules
Technically you could just order and then report the session to have been cancelled. I don't believe there's a feature that will make you unable to download new adventures if you report to many cancelled sessions.
-As always, Iluvrien hits all of the points right on their heads.
As usual, LK, you are entirely too kind. Sadly, my recognition and presentation of those points changes exactly nothing. Writing this here changes nothing. Writing this on the LFR board would change nothing. E-mailing the RPGA would change nothing. Writing to the RPGA with pen and paper would change nothing. I suspected this before, I am pretty much sure of it now.
Technically you could just order and then report the session to have been cancelled. I don't believe there's a feature that will make you unable to download new adventures if you report to many cancelled sessions.
Technically true. However, it is an Oberoni type situation. Just because you technically can work around the difficulties (and that is assuming that nobody would question why your group failed to run a single downloaded module ever) it does not mean that the estimation of those difficulties should be downgraded or that they should be ignored.
The LFR distribution method is, in my opinion, a rotten way to distribute new information about the setting. The fact that it may be possible to work out a way around this road-block does not change that.
As usual, LK, you are entirely too kind. Sadly, my recognition and presentation of those points changes exactly nothing. Writing this here changes nothing. Writing this on the LFR board would change nothing. E-mailing the RPGA would change nothing. Writing to the RPGA with pen and paper would change nothing. I suspected this before, I am pretty much sure of it now.
-I completely understand. For others to understand, say something, and cross your fingers, however unlikely, for change is all we can realistically do.
The LFR distribution method is, in my opinion, a rotten way to distribute new information about the setting. The fact that it may be possible to work out a way around this road-block does not change that.
I guess. But that depends on what the goals of the distributors are, doesn't it? If, in this case, one of the goals is to reward the LFR participants with "insider" knowledge, then maybe the goal is being met from the distributor's point of view?
I guess. But that depends on what the goals of the distributors are, doesn't it? If, in this case, one of the goals is to reward the LFR participants with "insider" knowledge, then maybe the goal is being met from the distributor's point of view?
Well not really, in this case it doesn't matter what the distributors goals are since I am not assessing them on whether they meet their own goals but whether they produce (and maintain in this case) a product that I, as a consumer, am happy to buy and continue buying. On own opinion, that was specified as such, I have also imposed the further constraints that it likely only applies to those who are fundamentally interested in all of the lore.
Even within that group I have highlighted the difference between those missing lore who:
a) don't make their way through most of the modules but are actual playing, and so get access to some lore (thus a minor issue)
b) are RPGA gameless (at the moment) but interested in lore and setting material (possibly a major issue for them).
These parameters specify the group for whom my opinion holds. I am in that group. On that basis I do apologise for not making it clear that I am speaking, to a degree, on my own behalf and thus automatically inherit the above limits. This is also one reason why I would expect nothing to change even should I, and the others this applies to contact the RPGA. I would imagine that there are too few people in this situation who are vocal enough to convince the RPGA that they might be missing something here. The other reason is that as you have pointed out, by their own definition they might actually being doing quite well. That is why I felt able to share my opinion here, it is also why I evidenced no expectation whatsoever that anything will change.
That is why I felt able to share my opinion here, it is also why I evidenced no expectation whatsoever that anything will change.
Cool, cool. That is one precise clarification!
As for the quoted bit, y'know, the only constant is change, never say never, everything changes, the tendency of systems is towards spontaneous change, insert your own truism here. Seems more likely to me that it'll all be available someday that not, but I've been wrong before (as in yesterday afternoon's LFR game, in fact, which saw the demise of my new half-orc figher Toliver Pike in the rat-infested sewers beneath Westgate, sigh).
Cool, cool. That is one precise clarification!
Thanks, I have found that in this place being as clear as you possibly can usually staves off so many arguments it proves invaluable. It is just a shame that most of the time I am here, I am so tired I can't even spell my name correctly.
Seems more likely to me that it'll all be available someday that not,
I am with LK on this one. Past experience of similar material would suggest that they will hold onto this stuff tighter than a barnacle. Why? Because any material not on general release could provide revenue in the future.
but I've been wrong before (as in yesterday afternoon's LFR game, in fact, which saw the demise of my new half-orc figher Toliver Pike in the rat-infested sewers beneath Westgate, sigh).
I understand that one completely. Just a week ago I lost my shiny new Dragonborn Paladin Knohj Wigsplitter (the surname has a backstory, don't ask). Now I am trying to get to grips with Gamad the Deva Invoker.