Dude, as stated elsewhere, I am reading Evermeet for the first time. I can't believe the amount of contradiction I am getting between it and the Lady Penitent series.
What do I do?!?! I don't know who to believe anymore!
Lord Karsus;17641480 wrote:
To start, we have the drow as always drow with Elaine, and we have dark elves that became drow with Lisa.
-This part is wrong. Going back to at least the Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves sourcebook, the Dark Elves transforming into Drow story has existed. This sourcebook was published after Evermeet: Island of the Elves, but it doesn't contradict anything, nor is anything contradicted.
Then, we have the drow that simply took to the Underdark on their own with Elaine (primarily for the purpose of war), then we have the drow that were banished to the Underdark with Lisa.
-Again, see above.
-Note, much of Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet: Island of the Elves leaves out large swaths of time. Not every single "age" is covered. In Evermeet: Island of the Elves, the Crown Wars get a single mention. Maybe two. At the time, TSR/WotC hadn't developed much of what happened in the Crown Wars. In Evermeet: Island of the Elves, Elaine doesn't actually go into the reason as to why the Drow come from the Underdark. It has the fall of Araushnee, but that's it. The Ilythiiri (Atorrnash) that are featured as called 'Dark Elves' (which is the proper term in retrospect, and at the time), and live above the ground. After Atorrnash is washed away during the Sundering, the next time we see any Dark Elves are when they have already been cast into the Underdark. Subsequent sources, such as Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, and Lost Empires of Faerûn, "filled in the blanks".
-This part is wrong. Going back to at least the Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves sourcebook, the Dark Elves transforming into Drow story has existed. This sourcebook was published after Evermeet: Island of the Elves, but it doesn't contradict anything, nor is anything contradicted.
.
Who’s wrong? Me, Elaine or Lisa?
Your statement leans toward Elain from what I have read.
-Again, see above.
This does not.
And this definitely doesn’t:
-Note, much of Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet: Island of the Elves leaves out large swaths of time. Not every single "age" is covered. In Evermeet: Island of the Elves, the Crown Wars get a single mention. Maybe two. At the time, TSR/WotC hadn't developed much of what happened in the Crown Wars. In Evermeet: Island of the Elves, Elaine doesn't actually go into the reason as to why the Drow come from the Underdark. It has the fall of Araushnee, but that's it. The Ilythiiri (Atorrnash) that are featured as called 'Dark Elves' (which is the proper term in retrospect, and at the time), and live above the ground. After Atorrnash is washed away during the Sundering, the next time we see any Dark Elves are when they have already been cast into the Underdark.
I’m aware that the novel jumps all over the place. My point is that no drow are “cast” into the Underdark. They simply start using the tunnels underneath for secret trade and then for war tactics.
As for the “Dark Elves,” these elves in Elaine’s description have “midnight” black skin—including Araunshee herself before she was banished to the Abyss.
Let’s not forget that she didn’t even have followers for centuries (by Elaine's count) after she was cast out of the pantheon. So how could she and her follower “Dark Elves” be cast out with her?
Your right. they aren't cast asunder to the dark abyss below the feet of the normal world. They have a compulsion set into their very being that draws them to the faruezz(sp?). They just started to go under slowly, feeling a subconcious tug that way. Making excuss up like "Trade routes" and "War Tactics" just plays into the minds ability to cope with undeniable compulsions. Like an addict making up reasons for their behavior.
That's a good point--I allow that explanation.
But they were doing this during the Crown Wars and not at the conclusion, where such a "casting out" was stated to take place.
And, again, I point out that they weren't "Dark Elves," but drow.
Who’s wrong? Me, Elaine or Lisa?
-You. Concerning Dark Elves/Drow, Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet: Island of Elves and Lisa Smedman's Lady Penitent trilogy do not contradict or clash with each other.
My point is that no drow are “cast” into the Underdark. They simply start using the tunnels underneath for secret trade and then for war tactics.
-As I said, Evermeet: Island of Elves doesn't cover the Descent of the Drow. That, in -10,000 DR, a High magic ritual was cast and the Dark Elves were "turned into" Drow, the Lady Penitent trilogy doesn't change anything. This was already established in Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves and Lost Empires of Faerûn.
As for the “Dark Elves,” these elves in Elaine’s description have “midnight” black skin—including Araunshee herself before she was banished to the Abyss.
-Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves includes descriptions of what Dark Elves/Drow looked before the Descent of the Drow in -10,000 DR.
Let’s not forget that she didn’t even have followers for centuries (by Elaine's count) after she was cast out of the pantheon. So how could she and her follower “Dark Elves” be cast out with her?
-They weren't. Araushnee was exiled from the Seldarine in -30,000 DR. The Drow were cast into the Underdark in -10,000 DR. That both were exiled and believe themselves to be victims, and all of that stuff, is just coincidence (symbolism).
-Things making a little more sense now?
-You. Concerning Dark Elves/Drow, Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet: Island of Elves and Lisa Smedman's Lady Penitent trilogy do not contradict or clash with each other.
Really? Well, hell, LK—thanks for letting me know. What a silly thing this thread was.
-As I said, Evermeet: Island of Elves doesn't cover the Descent of the Drow. That, in -10,000 DR, a High magic ritual was cast and the Dark Elves were "turned into" Drow, the Lady Penitent trilogy doesn't change anything. This was already established in Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves and Lost Empires of Faerûn.
I didn’t dispute any of the latter material. As for Evermeet, see my reply to Phelf_Der_Zemit above.
-Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves includes descriptions of what Dark Elves/Drow looked before the Descent of the Drow in -10,000 DR.
Oh, that’s great!!
Mind explaining for those unenlightened?
And what the hell would that have to do with things one way or another. Elaine calls them midnight black and Lisa calls them dark brown. Is Empire of the Elves going to tell which author is right and which is wrong?
-They weren't. Araushnee was exiled from the Seldarine in -30,000 DR. The Drow were cast into the Underdark in -10,000 DR. That both were exiled and believe themselves to be victims, and all of that stuff, is just coincidence (symbolism).
I’m not going to argue that this was put in text. But I also know that it was recorded that she and her followers were cast out at the same time someplace.
Things making a little more sense now?
No. And if you continue to be a belittling buttcake, then I’m slapping your poodle and stuffing a hot dog up your goldfishes #$!@!!
Oh, that’s great!!
Mind explaining for those unenlightened?
And what the hell would that have to do with things one way or another. Elaine calls them midnight black and Lisa calls them dark brown. Is Empire of the Elves going to tell which author is right and which is wrong?
-Dark colors range in hue, saturation, and all of that. They can both be right. Neither one of them contradicts each other, which is the point. They can be gray, black, brown, olive, plenty of colors. Just like Moon Elves are different colors, Sun Elves are different colors, and so on.
I’m not going to argue that this was put in text. But I also know that it was recorded that she and her followers were cast out at the same time someplace.
-That, I'm not sure. I don't recall reading that anywhere.
-This part is wrong. Going back to at least the Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves sourcebook, the Dark Elves transforming into Drow story has existed. This sourcebook was published after Evermeet: Island of the Elves, but it doesn't contradict anything, nor is anything contradicted.
See ... I knew you know the correct stuff ... with regard to our little "Ilythiiri drow" quarrel
Just consider the confusion of the drow coloration as far as simple artwork is concerned... it seems to range from black to purple to gray to a weird dark brown. Take LK's advice and call it done. Now I shall commence with my pointing and laughing. :P
That was not a problem of the drow, it was a problem of artists being able or unable to create a good picture of a black-/obsidian-skinned person that is not just a dark blot on the paper. ;)
Todd Lockwood is one of the best drow artists as far as I am concerned.
Obviously, but my point was that perceptions of how they're supposed to look are swayed by those pictures, and so the issue of skin tone becomes muddled by them. Beyond even that though, there are a lot of shades of black to choose from, which allows quite a bit of leeway in describing them. Call it artistic license and call it a day was what I was getting at.
... when it was so easy to simply copy & paste "obsidian- / jet-black-skinned" time and again from those very first and all the relevant sources.
18DELTA (CHOSEN OF CYRIC) :D
I’m not going to argue that this was put in text. But I also know that it was recorded that she and her followers were cast out at the same time someplace.
Never heard of this, but it I am sure that it is not mentioned in Elaines Evermeet, nor in Smedmans LP, and also not in Cormanthyr. You said that they are contradicting each other, but they don't.
In Evermeet by Elaine, Araushne was cast out in -30000 DR, then she became a demon without any followers and that's it. The next point there is, that she became aware of Ka'narlist and the drow some millenias later (Brians Grand History dates that event at -24500 DR). The Sundering, also mentioned in Elains novel, destroyes Atorrnash and many parts and people of Ilythiir (GH dates it at -17600 DR). And that is all.
The thing with Wendonai and Geirildin Sethomir, wich is mentioned in LP3, is part of the crown wars and the demon came to Faerûn -11500 DR. The Descent happened -10000 DR. There is nothing that Lolth was cast out at the same time.
Oh, yes there is one book, wich mentioned something like that. It was the latest Drow of the Underdark. But first it is not a FR specific book, second the part about Lolth, who took her followers with her, was a legend of the drow itself, how they interpreted their own history (and it was made clear, that this is not the truth).
Ps.: Didn't we have the coloration some time ago? I got the impression that it depends on how people define certain colordescriptions, shades and so on, so it would be simply came to the point how every one accepts it to be a little bit interpretable.
See ... I knew you know the correct stuff ... with regard to our little "Ilythiiri drow" quarrel
-As I saw typing, I made sure to keep it in mind. ;)
The Drow were created - and cursed - all at the exact same moment. While people of their (Illythiir) blood were effected EVERYWHERE in the multiverse, Toril had the largest community of Dark Elves, and it was also the place they committed (most of?) the acts which finally condemned them.
Not by the Seldarine - by their fellow Elves. The Seldarine lent their power to the ritual, and in that they feel shame (at least Corellon does, and that's canon).
Lolth was a dark Elf - this tells us that she at least was mortal at some point, living in Faerie. I believe the other Seldarine all were too, but that is pure conjecture. When she ascended - most likely through her relationship with Corellon - she became the 'patron' of Dark Elves everywhere. After she was cast-out (and down) by Corellon and the Seldarine, she still retained her connection with her original people, and rebuilt her power-base with it.
She was able to eventually go from a Demon-Lord (which is how Corellon left her) to a goddess once again, probably thorough her actively visiting various prime worlds and forcing 'her people' to worship her, providing her with that 'Divine mana' that gods need. How long any of this took is unknown, but it does appear that she first began her 'church' on other worlds, with smaller Drow populations, then Toril (if you look carefully at the text of E:IoE).
Maybe she was smart-enough not to come into conflict with the Seldarine by avoiding Toril until after she re-attained her godhood.
I haven't read LP - and do not care to - but the Faezress stuff is silly and just about any of us could have come-up with a more feasable plot.
The way I spun it in the Elven Netbook (what's that? :P ) is that they were cursed, and meant to die (Elves NEED sunlight) when they were driven underground. Lolth 'took pity' of her Dark Elves (or more likely, saw a means in which to have them 'beholden' to her) - now Drow - and gave them a 'blessing' to go with their curse. Instead of Sunlight, they could now feed upon the Underdark energies instead, and could also see in the Infra-red spectrum (Infra-vision is known as 'Lolth's Blessing' among the Drow, and not all of them have it anymore, since they have naturally developed darkvision in all the centuries living below ground). Like the reverie, Infra-vision is a trait that is slowly being 'bred-out' of the younger generations (by 4e, no new Drow are being born with it).
At least, thats how I always saw it happening, and I'm not sure if that contradicts anything Smedman wrote. I don't see 'Faezress' as being magical 'Drownip' - thats justy stupid - if anything I think the relationship should be more along the lines of how a Diabetic needs their insulin shots (and in the same way, too much can kill them).
Drizzt avoids this by... ummmm... carrying around a piece of Faezress in his pocket? I don't know... still trying to figure out why the Drow always had to live underground, when silly Drizzt screwed-up the entire original explanation with his very existance...
The Liriel explanation helps explain why they can 'come up' now, but it still doesn't account for Drizzt (maybe he made regular trips into the Underdark, or maybe there was a Faezress node near the surface in Kelvin's Cairn?)
I hate Drizzt... he really screws the pooch...
Edit: I'm leaning toward "Special agent of Mielikki" again for him, which also accounts for why he gets his Drow abilities instead of his ranger Spells. Maybe immunity to 'Faezress deprevation' was part of te package...
...
-I then got lost on Wikipedia, and somehow wound up looking at the largest ships ever built. I don't remember the point I was going to make. I think it was that most people get confused thinking that Dark Elves are something totally new, when this is not the case.
Glad I could... help? :D
I feel like Halaster, after he hit Asmodeus with a 'wave of confusion'. :P
And yeah, a weaponless Gruagach would use a stick to bash someone's brains in, but a Dark Elf would have no problem wearing a set of enchanted mail and using a magical sword to 'slice & dice'.
Same attitude and beliefs, but the Dark Elf didn't limit himself by his 'more primitive' ways.
Anyway - YEAH... people often get the ancient, primordial race of Dark Elves confused with the Drow, who came around at least 15,000 years later. The fact that 4e is calling them Dark Elves again doesn't really help matters much.
Another assumption many people make when reading E:IoE is that ALL of the 'prime world' scenes take place on Toril, when near the beginning, that simply isn't so. Lolth (and Gruumsh) are bouncing around quite a bit, and Lolth gets her 'army' of gods from many worlds. For instance, Herne was killed early on in the novel, by Malar, when we have canon evidence that Herne was worshipped right up until modern times in Realmspace.
Obviously she found Malar on some other prime world then Toril that day.
The text also indicates that she didn't really become 'interested' in Toril until she noted Ka'Narlist. Before that time, it appears both Vhaerun and Ghaunadar were more 'popular' with the Dark Elves then Lolth was on Toril.
Of course, once she became aware of it, she quickly set-about making changes.
... when it was so easy to simply copy & paste "obsidian- / jet-black-skinned" time and again from those very first and all the relevant sources.
What, all that has to happen is an author looking at a picture and deciding that purple drow need to be in the Realms because of something kewl they have in mind, since purple looks so great with abomination slime, and the next thing you know, its canon... ;)
Thats what WoW's Night Elves are - just Drow that have learned to live with others. In fact, in that settinhg, the 'Dark Elves' are the 'good' ones, and the 'light Elves' are the ebil ones...
Although, technically, neither side is really good or evil in that game/setting...
The Drow were created - and cursed - all at the exact same moment. While people of their (Illythiir) blood were effected EVERYWHERE in the multiverse, Toril had the largest community of Dark Elves, and it was also the place they committed (most of?) the acts which finally condemned them....
BTW ... either in Evermeet or in the Lady Penitent series (though I bet it was the former) I read that Kiaransalee's minions were actually drow before any cursing was done on Toril. Much like she and Araushnee were actually more drow than "dark elves" long before the drow-creation on Toril. Matter of factly, while DD state it otherwise, Evermeet also states that Kiaransalee's dark elves were called "drow". Not much more is actually known about that world, DD makes a mention though.
*Pre-reply - edit: you can find that bit in Evermeet, p. 138.
And to the post who didn't understand why Drizzt didn't have to deal with that Faerzhosi? If its something thats bred into drow then thats your answer Genetics. Every Race has an anomaly somewhere and sometime. I.E two darkskinned parents having a completely white child and vice versa. We have barely begun to map our own DNA here.
And a final quote"History is always written by the wieners"
-Just don't forget (and, I don't like when people bring it up to try to 'diffuse' a problem, so I don't want to look like a hypocrite, but...) that Evermeet: Island of Elves was 'written' by Danillo. Technical terms that get a little mixed up like that (the use of 'Drow' and 'Dark Elf') could, in theory, be because Danillo got it wrong. Or, because some other scholar, somewhere along the way got it wrong.
Hey, if you were Gothic Dan I would have said now: well remembered! Since it was me who pointed this out aeons ago when we debated the history of the elves of Faerûn. For there are, of course, quite a number of topics which would have to come under scrutiny in the light of more modern lore (a.k.a. "canon").
Of course, even in such a novel material can be presented that would simply be out of reach for a Danielo or even Elminster. For no-one bar the deities would know what happened back in the days of Araushnee' fall. Then again, it could just be his version being re-told much like a Greek myth (rather than actual religion).
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :P
I thought novels weren't generally considered"Canon".
AFAIK novels are among the primary sources for canon in the realms.
Isn't there an actually encyclopedia ype thing that explains the "Canon" history? Is that what the Grand History of the Realms does?
Doesn't GHotR draw just asheavily from novels as from supplements?
-Dark colors range in hue, saturation, and all of that. They can both be right. Neither one of them contradicts each other, which is the point. They can be gray, black, brown, olive, plenty of colors. Just like Moon Elves are different colors, Sun Elves are different colors, and so on.
This is just pulling at strings and saying it is all up for interpretation—in this case: yours.
Just consider the confusion of the drow coloration as far as simple artwork is concerned... it seems to range from black to purple to gray to a weird dark brown. Take LK's advice and call it done. Now I shall commence with my pointing and laughing. :P
This “confusion” is either brought on by stupidity, or, as you state in your latter post, because the artist thought it would be “kewl” (again, stupid). I have yet to see a non-black drow.
And, as for such confusion itself, I’ve been playing (or had played) in FR for close to 20 years now—starting with early 2e. Drow have always been jet-black in skin.
And, yes, there was actual artwork in those days. WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK DRIZZT IS JET BLACK!!?!?! 'CAUSE HE IS A DROW!!!!
If allowed otherwise, than Wizards made a major fruck-up.
Now, go to the mirror, point that finger at yourself, and repeat after me: "I am not inadequate. I am not inadequate. I am not inad...."
Never heard of this, but it I am sure that it is not mentioned in Elaines Evermeet, nor in Smedmans LP, and also not in Cormanthyr. You said that they are contradicting each other, but they don't.
In Evermeet by Elaine, Araushne was cast out in -30000 DR….
You are following LK’s point here—not mine. That’s not what I am disputing—just replied to him that I heard someplace that it was at the same time.
It may have been in the core D&D rules, or it could have been here. Don’t know. And I may very well be wrong—I’m not up for digging around at this point.
The way I spun it in the Elven Netbook (what's that? :P ) is that they were cursed, and meant to die (Elves NEED sunlight) when they were driven underground. Lolth 'took pity' of her Dark Elves (or more likely, saw a means in which to have them 'beholden' to her) - now Drow - and gave them a 'blessing' to go with their curse. Instead of Sunlight, they could now feed upon the Underdark energies instead, and could also see in the Infra-red spectrum (Infra-vision is known as 'Lolth's Blessing' among the Drow, and not all of them have it anymore, since they have naturally developed darkvision in all the centuries living below ground). Like the reverie, Infra-vision is a trait that is slowly being 'bred-out' of the younger generations (by 4e, no new Drow are being born with it).
The majority of this makes a hell of a lot more sense to me. Well done.
Another assumption many people make when reading E:IoE is that ALL of the 'prime world' scenes take place on Toril, when near the beginning, that simply isn't so. Lolth (and Gruumsh) are bouncing around quite a bit, and Lolth gets her 'army' of gods from many worlds. For instance, Herne was killed early on in the novel, by Malar, when we have canon evidence that Herne was worshipped right up until modern times in Realmspace.
Trust me, that is not the case here.
-Just don't forget (and, I don't like when people bring it up to try to 'diffuse' a problem, so I don't want to look like a hypocrite, but...) that Evermeet: Island of Elves was 'written' by Danillo. Technical terms that get a little mixed up like that (the use of 'Drow' and 'Dark Elf') could, in theory, be because Danillo got it wrong. Or, because some other scholar, somewhere along the way got it wrong.
There you go!
Novels are canon unless they are written by somebody who writes that a fictional character actually wrote the book they wrote.
Yeah, baby! Yeah!
It may have been in the core D&D rules, or it could have been here. Don’t know. And I may very well be wrong—I’m not up for digging around at this point.
Yes I followed LK a bit, because he is right. There is nothing contradicting in these novels/sources. But if you read my post a bit further, you will find something more:
Oh, yes there is one book, wich mentioned something like that. It was the latest Drow of the Underdark. But first it is not a FR specific book, second the part about Lolth, who took her followers with her, was a legend of the drow itself, how they interpreted their own history (and it was made clear, that this is not the truth).
;)
Yes I followed LK a bit, because he is right. There is nothing contradicting in these novels/sources. But if you read my post a bit further, you will find something more:
You’re right. There is nothing contradicting in these novels.
If you read it the way you want to, that is.
It’s like 10.000 people picking up the Bible and discussing why it is infallible. It’s stupid.
;)<- That's the only official source I know, where the fall of Lolth and her drow happened at the same time. But there are three different versions and all are legends of the drow after the descent/transformation and they were made (that's more or less also stated in this book) to tell the younger ones a false history with drow being the good. It was meant as folklore of the drow. The three myths are contradicting each other in one or all details. But all are completly different than the "real" history lore of the FR.
Well, great. It was stated “someplace” just like I said. I don’t really give two rabbit poops, because that was not my debate.
Though, thank you for looking into it. ;)
Doesn't GHotR draw just asheavily from novels as from supplements?
-Yes, yes it does.
There you go!
Novels are canon unless they are written by somebody who writes that a fictional character actually wrote the book they wrote.
Yeah, baby! Yeah!
-Right. Normally, novels are written in the third-person, and are "absolute" depictions of what happens. In the case of Evermeet: Island of the Elves, it is written from the point of view of Danillo researching stuff, and compiling it. All of that information has been taken for canon thus far, in books like LEoF, or AGHotR, but, technically, if something diverged a great deal from E:IoE, the diverging source would likely be correct, if it were a sourcebook or novel written from the 'normal' point of view.
This “confusion” is either brought on by stupidity, or, as you state in your latter post, because the artist thought it would be “kewl” (again, stupid). I have yet to see a non-black drow.
And, as for such confusion itself, I’ve been playing (or had played) in FR for close to 20 years now—starting with early 2e. Drow have always been jet-black in skin.
And, yes, there was actual artwork in those days. WHY THE HELL DO YOU THINK DRIZZT IS JET BLACK!!?!?! 'CAUSE HE IS A DROW!!!!
If allowed otherwise, than Wizards made a major fruck-up.
Now, go to the mirror, point that finger at yourself, and repeat after me: "I am not inadequate. I am not inadequate. I am not inad...."
So, you see drow often then do you? :P
As to their fictional skin coloration, there's tons of shades of black, which leaves wriggle room for descriptions of it. Though I confess I do prefer them as jet-black myself, but I can get past my old-school hang-ups and modernize my views a bit at times... unlike some fogies I can think of who leave their minds to rot in the past with inflexible views on how imaginary creatures should look. :P :P
18DELTA (CHOSEN OF CYRIC) ;)
-Right. Normally, novels are written in the third-person, and are "absolute" depictions of what happens. In the case of Evermeet: Island of the Elves, it is written from the point of view of Danillo researching stuff, and compiling it. All of that information has been taken for canon thus far, in books like LEoF, or AGHotR, but, technically, if something diverged a great deal from E:IoE, the diverging source would likely be correct, if it were a sourcebook or novel written from the 'normal' point of view.
I could deal with such a fact if it wasn’t just dumb. Yes, we had an author write a book that was actually supposed to be written by a character.
In the end, it is real authors envisioning.
I guess we take all that Dirizzt prologue crap and toss it. And what about that Volo schmuck?
Besides, if anything spawning this thread and taken from E:IoE was used for AGHotR, then there is an issue—as you just made reference to.
So, you see drow often then do you? :P
I see drow people.
As to their fictional skin coloration, there's tons of shades of black, which leaves wriggle room for descriptions of it. Though I confess I do prefer them as jet-black myself, but I can get past my old-school hang-ups and modernize my views a bit at times... unlike some fogies I can think of who leave their minds to rot in the past with inflexible views on how imaginary creatures should look. :P :P
Yes, yes. You can describe black in different ways (though not "tons"). But not once in my years in Chicago have I ever seen a “black” person and thought of them as “midnight.”
And if you are referring to me as one of those fogies, well, then:
I’m at least ten years behind Tay!!
-You are so progressive Stigger! :P
Saw that, too, huh? :whatsthis
She was able to eventually go from a Demon-Lord (which is how Corellon left her) to a goddess once again, probably thorough her actively visiting various prime worlds and forcing 'her people' to worship her, providing her with that 'Divine mana' that gods need. How long any of this took is unknown, but it does appear that she first began her 'church' on other worlds, with smaller Drow populations, then Toril (if you look carefully at the text of E:IoE).
I actually saw some accounts of her corrupting individual elves, too, who also became dark elves over time. I forgot which sourcebook, but something noted that an elf went after her to kill her, but Lolth learned from her rival Ghaurandar how one can draw power from worship...and that was when she started to corrupt the elves, said elf who went after her becoming one of those elves she corrupted. And to this day, she still secretly tries to corrupt elves. The Cult of Moander is an example of this, the deity is dead but Lolth tries to draw power from the cult itself (there was a reference to this in Findur Wyvernspur's description in Faiths and Pantheons, 3.0). It is weird, but I suppose it can happen that way.
But then, personally, I do not think Lolth cares about drow short of having some power through worshipers (and they do make the bulk of her worshipers). It seems her agenda is to cause chaos and to land a nasty blow in Corellon's ribs, along with the rest of the Seldarine. Getting rid of elven worship, one way or another, would be a means to do this.
I think, though, that a lot of the history will always be portrayed through subjective eyes. In the eyes of the drow, the elves cursed them and made them suffer years in the Underdark; some drow, such as the Kinslayers (Drow of the Underdark 3.5) even go out of their way to get vengeance. However, in the eyes of many elves, the drow were corrupt and seeking power, and the entire tribe was responsible for it, thus they tell their children the horror stories of drow pillaging, raping, and killing elven villagers so that the children could learn to fight the drow (or protect themselves from drow)...that, and it did help make sure the elven kids kept good little elven kids.
And then you get people who can see both perspectives and come up with an objective truth, and those people are very few in both societies.
Kind Regards,
AryaNightingale
Age is a state of mind fogey-boy. :P
If that's the case, then you are correct. I'm at least 90 at this point.
But then, personally, I do not think Lolth cares about drow short of having some power through worshipers (and they do make the bulk of her worshipers). It seems her agenda is to cause chaos and to land a nasty blow in Corellon's ribs, along with the rest of the Seldarine. Getting rid of elven worship, one way or another, would be a means to do this.
Of all your text, I believe this is the most accurate. Though I think she isn't so concerned about elves worshiping her as she is about everyone worshiping her. It's completely about power.
Regards,
AryaNightingale
I personally don't think Lloth corrupts in any way. She manipulates, schemes and intimidates. She is a reflection of those that serve her.
God has never fooled me--just jacked me around to an unbelievable level. Can I do anything about it?
An FR deity can do whatever the hell they want. You pick up a portfolio, pretend that you are who you aren't and Alakazam!! Nobody knows, nor gets what just happened,
How does a god(dess) go about fooling anyone--especially a Moandorite (who, by all immediate assessment are a bunch of twigs to begin with)?
-They ask Moander for prayers, Moander is dead*, so Lolth impersonates him, and gives those people spells, and all is well.
*subject to change
-They ask Moander for prayers, Moander is dead*, so Lolth impersonates him, and gives those people spells, and all is well.
*subject to change
Moander is a special case, I would assume. While there has been the Servant of the Fallen Feat being brought in to access "dead" deities (or rather their divine essence), Moander's portfolios were split between Finder and Lolth, with the latter taking up some/all of his worshippers too. A very sneaky Moanderite might know of the "Servant of the Fallen Feat" and use it, yet ...
- he/she would have to know that the god IS actually dead - Lolth maskerading as him would make that thought hard to come by
- had to get past two deities, one of which is very keen on power and not willing to relinquish one bit
- face instant presecution of both "mascerading" or Moander-following faiths
... to name but a few things.
- he/she would have to know that the god IS actually dead - Lolth maskerading as him would make that thought hard to come by
That was actually my point.
But, yes. The case of Moander is a bit different.
While there has been the Servant of the Fallen Feat being brought in to access "dead" deities...
-The Servant of the Fallen feat ruins everything.
-The Servant of the Fallen feat ruins everything.
Tell that to someone who loved Ibrandul!
-Hey, when your deity is killed, your deity is killed. That's just how things work.
But deities do not die, as we all know. Even before that feat. And, of course, there is always "Mr. Stand-up" Orcus the Twice-Slain.
Tell that to someone who loved Ibrandul!
Who?
But deities do not die, as we all know. Even before that feat. And, of course, there is always "Mr. Stand-up" Orcus the Twice-Slain.
-Deities die. They just can come back, in some cases, when specific criteria are met.
Ibrandul, a deity of the Underdark, and one of the more fun ones, that Shar ate almost as an afterthought during the ToT if I recall correctly.
-Right. He was mostly worshiped in Human bastions in the Underdark and Calimshan.
Ibrandul, a deity of the Underdark, and one of the more fun ones, that Shar ate almost as an afterthought during the ToT if I recall correctly. I kind of liked him actually...
Considering this is Dungeons & Dragons, yes, killing him seems a bit goofy.
If his portfolio did have to go to the side of evil, then Lloth should have got it in my opinion.
Either that, or Shar and Lloth should have been merged in 4e as always being one in the same.
Tymora should have gotten it otherwise.
Either that, or Shar and Lloth should have been merged in 4e as always being one in the same.
-That would have caused total anarchy.
-That would have caused total anarchy.
Well, Sweet Bejebuz snorting popcorn kernels! Didn't we just experience that?
What difference would that merge have made?
-That would have caused total anarchy.
The Strife would have been most entertaining.
Well, Sweet Bejebuz snorting popcorn kernels! Didn't we just experience that?
What difference would that merge have made?
-I can think of at least three posters who would have "gone off the proverbial deep end" if Shar and Lolth were merged. Note, though, that in the build up to 4e, it was seeming that things might have been going that way, with Sehanine Moonbow merging with Selûne, and with Lolth Sehanine's proverbial sister, and Shar Selûne's proverbial sister...
-I can think of at least three posters who would have "gone off the proverbial deep end" if Shar and Lolth were merged. Note, though, that in the build up to 4e, it was seeming that things might have been going that way, with Sehanine Moonbow merging with Selûne, and with Lolth Sehanine's proverbial sister, and Shar Selûne's proverbial sister...
And La-la-la....
Exactly.
Everyone has loved something about this setting that was lost--unless you had no emotional attachment to the setting in the first place. They'd just have to get over it like the rest of us.
Portfolio's are no longer as important as they once were. Seems like the opportune time to make such a change.
Then again, I guess you can sell more novels with two wicked goddesses than just one.
See what make$ Cent$ here? Change. :D
Ibrandul, a deity of the Underdark, and one of the more fun ones, that Shar ate almost as an afterthought during the ToT if I recall correctly. I kind of liked him actually...
The nigh perfect Underdark deity for renegades and "gray" druids down there. In times of early 3E there were Shar-not-an-option and Grumbar aside not a single decent deity suitable for druids down there. Ibrandul was luring the odd Sharran away from her down in the Underdark, something to which she reacted unkindly. She slew him during/just after the Time of Troubles in a deep level of Undermountain, his petrified avatar still lingers there.
-I can think of at least three posters who would have "gone off the proverbial deep end" if Shar and Lolth were merged. Note, though, that in the build up to 4e, it was seeming that things might have been going that way, with Sehanine Moonbow merging with Selûne, and with Lolth Sehanine's proverbial sister, and Shar Selûne's proverbial sister...
Well, merging those deities would simply be utter garbage, since apart from the "darkness" portfolio they have absolutely nothing in common. Oh well, they are females, if that counts. Matter of factly, I wouldn't go into orbit about it. They lost me with their apocalyptic new Realms anyway and what they do in there simply does not interest me any longer.
As to Shar and Lolth, you forgot "evil" as something they have in common. ;) :D
Well, merging those deities would simply be utter garbage, since apart from the "darkness" portfolio they have absolutely nothing in common.
The portfolio holding the Underdark makes more sense for Lloth to have than Shar.
As to Shar and Lolth, you forgot "evil" as something they have in common. ;) :D
Not to mention they are the matron's of the two most evil power societies in the Realms.
Well, merging those deities would simply be utter garbage, since apart from the "darkness" portfolio they have absolutely nothing in common. Oh well, they are females, if that counts. Matter of factly, I wouldn't go into orbit about it. They lost me with their apocalyptic new Realms anyway and what they do in there simply does not interest me any longer.
-Both are "females" (for as much as a deity can have a sex), both have a power base in the Underdark, both have "sisters" they don't like, both are evil...
The portfolio holding the Underdark makes more sense for Lloth to have than Shar.
Matter of factly, according to Demihuman Deities, Lolth actually took over some of these "gray druids" after his fall, though this would be drow (or half-drow). Enter 3,0E and a rigid ruling on "Nature" deities which had no place for Lolth (despite her Spider domain).
LK ... Lolth has a "sister"?
Matter of factly, according to Demihuman Deities, Lolth actually took over some of these "gray druids" after his fall, though this would be drow (or half-drow). Enter 3,0E and a rigid ruling on "Nature" deities which had no place for Lolth (despite her Spider domain).
Dumb. The Underdark has fungus! It's woodzie!
Damn nature enthusiasts.
I noticed it too. Nice bit, that one, but no longer usable. But a Clr/Drd/arachnomancer combo of Lloth would still work, wouldn't it?
Well, no sooner than 3E and these rules were out, we had the City of the Spider Queen campaign and guess what, the web-enhancement features a were-bat drow druid! Sneaky as the designer was, he did not mention what faith she had. I'd doubt that it is Malar or Shar though, since the lass left Maerimydra only after contracting lycanthropie and surely grew up a Lolthite all along the way.
Anyways, I have no problem using CN or NE druids of Lolth, especially if I mix those with the vermin keeper or cavelords PrCs. I would be more hesitant with druids of Selvetarm, as he's far too martial to have any "druids" running about, despite the spider domain.
And Selvetarm doesn't get anything with nature or druids, that's set. He's only there for male fighters to venerate instead of Lloth.
(Though, admittedly, I did like the Masked Lady concept after Eilistraee absorbed Vhaeraun)
-As did I, and a couple of others.
And yet, I was proven wrong. Surprised me, that's for sure.
