What is the essence of evil in the realms? Who is evil in the realms and why would they choose to be so when eternal damnation is very real?
As to gray areas, I suspect almost any action could be virtuous or vile depending on the reason and motive behind it, with some obvious exceptions. One would think giving money and time to charity to be a good thing, but if they're just doing it to hide suspicion for dark deeds, then it becomes at best neutral, if not evil depending on the circumstances. Maybe a wizard gives 100gp to the coffers of a goodly temple and uses a spell to call the specially prepared coins back to them, along with 10 others that are within a short distance of them in an elaborate ruse to steal from the temple... the initial act might be technically good, but obviously its done more out of a sense of greed than anything else. Maybe some merchant donates food to a village struck by disaster, but only does it to get them a bit more healthy for the slavers he's sending to raid them... does the initial act of psuedo altruism offset the evil that follows, or does it simply compound it?
A lot of that gray is also going to depend on the standard of good and evil you use. If you take an extreme approach and use the BoED/BoVD definitions as the baseline standard, then you're going to get significantly different ideas for where the line is drawn on gray areas, as compared to a more PHB defined baseline standard, which leaves a lot more wriggle room. Which is right? Both, neither, depends on who's doing the defining.
As to the essence of evil, I suspect it varies from DM to DM, depending on how one interprets alignment and the like, along with what standard (pre/post-4e) one uses to gauge it. I'm fairly sure my definition of evil would probably be considerably different from someone like Meldread's or LK's. A lot of it will probably be at least somewhat subjective, and partially societal in definition. In a planar sense even, you're going to get a heirarchy of evil as defined by each philosophy of good that will probably be fairly different from one another, colored by where one stresses the importance of law, chaos, or a more balanced approach to things. So, I suppose the only answer I would give is, it depends.
Who is evil? Well, the flip answer to that would be whoever had an evil alignment in their stat block, but I suspect that's not what you're asking. And again, I'd say it depended. Personally, I'd define a lot of the actions of various elves throughout history as being incredibly evil, whereas others wouldn't necessarily. In terms of history, it depends more on the observer than on facts that aren't necessarily known, the whole judgment of history thing. In the here and now, I suppose whoever detects as evil according the paladins. I'd say that most folks weren't, at least not actively so, though I'd say there was a significant number of passively evil around. The difference there being those who actively promote or commit evil as compared to those who when presented with a choice, will take the one that benefits themselves, preferably at the expense of others. I see this as different from motivated self-interest, since it has a malicious connotation to me.
Kinda like the difference between a farmer who'll grab a wandering cow who got out of the pen, but who'd return it if the owner's mark was there or approached about it with a good description, as compared to the one who'd grab the cow, alter any marks present to make it look like his, and maybe even beat or kill someone who came looking for it too persistently. Hopefully that makes some sense... not sure if I explained that well really.
Why someone would choose damnation is a slippery one I think. I'm not really sure it would be viewed as damnation by anyone who wasn't at least somewhat inclined towards good. Maybe they just view it as the natural order, and that they have just as good a shot there as anyone else who goes. Maybe they don't buy the idea of upper planar paradise from the start, thinking its some scam to bribe you into an enslaved afterlife. Maybe they don't really think the good guys are all that good, and its all just an act... maybe they just want to be on 'the winning team'... or maybe it was just because a cleric was really cute. There's tons of reasons for it really, none of which have to make sense to anyone other than the person making that choice.
In the realms on the regional level I tend to make a broad distinction between pro-active evil and passive evil. Passive evil is the numorous crowd who cares for itself at expanse of others but not terribly destructive even in a mass. Pro active evil in a region would be active oppression and intimidation round every corner. In FR this is quite often the work of divine agents of the more evil gods. Paladins have divine law backing them when opposing those divine agents, but they cant act against passive evil.
I 'd say in most civilized areas of Fearun divine inspiration for evil acts are numerous to say the least. Or at least most acts will be tested to the moral compass of that region, which in turn is largely shaped by the currently excepted pantheon.
Did you know that some of them mate with demons, and have a whole demonic sub race? Did you know that they have an elven supremecist organization bent on eradicating humanity? Did you know, after all but abandoning Faerun for centuries, they are now coming back and trying to take over their old stomping grounds?
The Elves must be stopped!
A Sharran afterlife and the promises it brings, for example, is very different than the afterlife Bane might promise. To the right people, each can be just as equally appealing as say - Sharress' afterlife. ;)
After all, everyone knows that when you die you eventually find your way into the realm of your patron deity. (At least pre-4th Edition - no one is quite certain what happens now!)
A Sharran might proclaim the afterlife as a beautiful thing, where pain and loss are non-existent, where you simply slip away into an endless void of darkness, like slipping into a peaceful slumber, and become one with Shar. In doing so, you've achieved the perfect state of being - a return to the void that existed before time.
Whether or not that is actually what happens could be up for debate. Shar is the goddess of secrets after all.
I imagine Sharran's kinda like Doomsday cultists. They are constantly preparing for the end times, and are working to bring it about. Their reasons may vary. Study some doomsday cults, and you pretty much have a Sharran mindset.
On the converse, a Banite might proclaim that the afterlife is simply a staging ground for what is to come. Each of Bane's faithful goes to stand at his side in his divine realm, and when the day comes that he rules over all Faerun, when even the other gods fall on their knees before him, the gates to his divine realm shall open up and the faithful shall once more walk the land. They would rule the world as his immortal servants, his dukes, lords and vassals. They will plot and scheme to conquer other worlds.
Your entire life would thus be devoted to proving your worth to Bane. Good soldiers become good generals, and good generals lead the armies of Bane. Good loyal leaders maintain similar positions in the afterlife.
Those who have failed to remain true to Bane, or those that only half-heartedly supported him would be suitably punished for all eternity. Thus, pious devotion is required along with frequent prayers and offerings.
Sharress would promise her followers an afterlife of endless pleasure, massive orgies and parties, the ability to drink as much as you'd like, get as drunk as you like, and not suffer any negative consequences. Among other things.
So on and so forth with the other gods.
My philosophy is that whatever the disaster, more than likley the Elves are some how responsible. Dragon Rages? Elves. The Crown War? Elves. The Creation of the Drow? Elves. The Dark Disaster? Elves. The Sundering? Elves. The fall of Myth Drannor? Elves. The Netherese and all the mess they caused? Elves. The Destruction of Jhadamath? Elves. The free'ing of the Phaerm? Elves. The Return of the Shade Empire? Elves.
Did you know that some of them mate with demons, and have a whole demonic sub race? Did you know that they have an elven supremecist organization bent on eradicating humanity? Did you know, after all but abandoning Faerun for centuries, they are now coming back and trying to take over their old stomping grounds?
The Elves must be stopped!
Lets not forget Drizzt who was caused by dark elves who were caused by elves. Though it seems to me that someone has a secret fetish concerning elves but is afraid tho mention it less he be considered evil or gray
-Ka'Narlist of Atorrnash, as well.
Whereas a Illithid lets you know it would like your brain, and a Beholder is very up-front about shooting you with it's eyestalks, an Elf will pretend to be your friend and then turn around and steal your Nether scrolls...
Buncha lowlives...
I would have to concur - the vilest beings in the universe are all Elves. :D
Whereas a Illithid lets you know it would like your brain, and a Beholder is very up-front about shooting you with it's eyestalks, an Elf will pretend to be your friend and then turn around and steal your Nether scrolls...
Buncha lowlives...
Nether Scrolls, I read that as Nether Scro... never mind. :P
Though, I wouldn't put it past those pointy-eared magic-making tree-huggers either way.
Wanna talk about the grey areas of D&D good and evil in the Realms?
What is the essence of evil in the realms? Who is evil in the realms and why would they choose to be so when eternal damnation is very real?
I don't think Faerun has "eternal damnation" in the Christian sense. If someone goes to one of the lower planes after death, it's most likely because they were following an evil deity and therefore went to that deity's realm (that is, they didn't go there as "punishment" upon being "judged").
)But they do get the immortal life as a petitionner, a curse of a sort in itself. And most of the evil dieties planes are no less hostile, frightening or maddening as the Hells of christian fame.
And on judgment. I do think Kelemvor tries to judge every soul that passes the fugue though. Someone has to "judge" the soul if it's been faithfull, faithless or false.
When a divine agents comes along to visit the fugue to harvest new petitioners it judges the prospect aswell, as most are able to see their souls bare (and would likely see if they are false aswell).
My philosophy is that whatever the disaster, more than likley the Elves are some how responsible. Dragon Rages? Elves. The Crown War? Elves. The Creation of the Drow? Elves. The Dark Disaster? Elves. The Sundering? Elves. The fall of Myth Drannor? Elves. The Netherese and all the mess they caused? Elves. The Destruction of Jhadamath? Elves. The free'ing of the Phaerm? Elves. The Return of the Shade Empire? Elves.
Did you know that some of them mate with demons, and have a whole demonic sub race? Did you know that they have an elven supremecist organization bent on eradicating humanity? Did you know, after all but abandoning Faerun for centuries, they are now coming back and trying to take over their old stomping grounds?
The Elves must be stopped!
-That was very enlightening. :D I thought the Army of Darkness destroyed Myth Drannor. Or was it Elven snobbiness? ;)
I would have to concur - the vilest beings in the universe are all Elves. :D
Whereas a Illithid lets you know it would like your brain, and a Beholder is very up-front about shooting you with it's eyestalks, an Elf will pretend to be your friend and then turn around and steal your Nether scrolls...
Buncha lowlives...
-Careful Markus, thou shalt not talk badly about the Elves, lest LK or Alediran (where has he been lately?) smiteth thee for thine insolence. ;)
-You are right about the Illithid, and the beholder. At least we expect bad things from them. Elves ruin everything they touch. Maybe we should blame the spellplague on them too? ;)
18DELTA (CYRIC LIKES THE MULTI-QUOTE FUNCTION) :P
-That was very enlightening. :D I thought the Army of Darkness destroyed Myth Drannor. Or was it Elven snobbiness? ;)
-Both. The Army od Farkness certainly did the physical destruction and such, but the internal problems in Myth Drannor contributed to it's defenders not being able to ward off the Trio Nefarious and their followers. Things could have been different if, say, Aravae hasn't been killed, or if the Srinshee hadn't been driven away, or even if N'Tel'Quessir had never been invited into the city to begin with. If the first or third happened, Myth Drannor probably would have been destroyed anyway. If the second did, maybe it could have survived.
As to Myth Drannor, doubtful it would have survived the arrogance of its elven inhabitants much longer, even had they held the Army of Darkness at bay. That Army of Farkness might have finished them off though. :P
But getting back to the subject at hand, bad LK for veering off-topic, you should be ashamed of yourself, I'm going to have to agree with Rino and say there really isn't an idea of 'eternal damnation' going on religiously with Faerun, though it might be something they introduced in 4e. Though as a side note, petitioners aren't immortal for the most part, though they can survive quite a while. Really though, certainly the hells are maddening and frightening, but is that because its how they look to an upper planar outlook, or because they really are? I'd say it depended on how you viewed things myself...
-Both. The Army od Farkness certainly did the physical destruction and such, but the internal problems in Myth Drannor contributed to it's defenders not being able to ward off the Trio Nefarious and their followers. Things could have been different if, say, Aravae hasn't been killed, or if the Srinshee hadn't been driven away, or even if N'Tel'Quessir had never been invited into the city to begin with. If the first or third happened, Myth Drannor probably would have been destroyed anyway. If the second did, maybe it could have survived.
-The Army od Farkness?
;) 18DELTA (CYRIC LOVES ME THIS I KNOW, BECAUSE THE CYRINISHAD TELLS ME SO....) :D
The gnomes are our salvation infidel...
Heretic!! Your only hope are the kobolds!
The gnomes are our salvation infidel...
Heretic!! Your only hope are the kobolds!
*
Frowns, encourages the promotion of sorcery, psionic wild talents and a few other matters among the gnome and kobold populations and transplants them both away from anything particularly important.
You two come back to me when you've settled this minor dispute. I expect to see a new magical tradition out of both of you in the process or I'll find less polite forms of motivation
*
If Aravae is who I think she is (Eltargrim's heir) then her surviving would probably have kept the Srinshee in place and helped other matters significantly.
-True. I, personally, have always seen Aravae as a very wishy-washy, weak individual, who wouldn't have made a good ruler, so that has probably colored my perception there.
-The Army od Farkness?
-Hmm...Yes, the Army od Farkness. Very evil, very scary.
As to Gnomish magical traditions, consider the phobomancer, who uses their illusions in duels to conquer their own fears, in a crucible of fright that refines their will and self-control. Magically, a mixture of illusion to create the fearsome illusions and enchantment to reinforce the subtle clues that they are indeed quite real to the victims mind, woven into the same spell, to create complex scenes that are drawn from the caster's imagination, not that of the victim, requiring the casters to develop a keen understanding of the minds of others, as well as their own. Capable of casting their own scenes, eventually they learn to cast spells in group efforts to make the scenes that much more subtle and effective, blending them into the scenery with indistinguishable-from-reality perfection, not mere phantoms, but weavings of sensory clues, from faint rustling of leaves as the horror approaches, to subtle scents of rotting flesh from the maw, to make them seem that much more real and difficult to disbelieve for those who would gain their ire. It would, I think, make an interesting combination with a breachgnome to defend a gnomish community...
Stigger: Alright, I'm amused by the phobomancer so half the terms for gnomish freedom are met. Now we merely need a peaceful resolution between kobold and gnome or rivers of blood.
LK: If Aravae is actually too weak then the Elfblade kills her and life gets really messy anyway. I'm hoping otherwise but don't know the lady particularly well. I'll modify my earlier comment, if she isn't assassinated AND draws the Elfblade successfully then the Srinshee sticks around and some other potential problems are averted.
-I use the term as in mentally weak, or politically weak, or maybe naive. Something to that effects. As a person, I am sure she was true, a good person, a well-meaning person, and all of that other stuff. I always pictured her as the type of person that, if she became the ruler, would be susceptible to "insidious" politicians whispering in her ears and influencing how she rules without her even realizing it.
As to peaceful resolution between gnomes and kobolds, we'll just do what we always do... lay low and wait for them to get bored or distracted and go away to be food for some passing predator.
You make a good point. (as usual
But they do get the immortal life as a petitionner, a curse of a sort in itself. And most of the evil dieties planes are no less hostile, frightening or maddening as the Hells of christian fame.
And on judgment. I do think Kelemvor tries to judge every soul that passes the fugue though. Someone has to "judge" the soul if it's been faithfull, faithless or false.
When a divine agents comes along to visit the fugue to harvest new petitioners it judges the prospect aswell, as most are able to see their souls bare (and would likely see if they are false aswell).
Thanks--and, you make some good points here, too.
But getting back to the subject at hand, bad LK for veering off-topic, you should be ashamed of yourself, I'm going to have to agree with Rino and say there really isn't an idea of 'eternal damnation' going on religiously with Faerun, though it might be something they introduced in 4e.
Not sure about the 4E Realms, specifically, but I do know that in the "core setting", the details of the afterlife are now much more mysterious, to the point where even the gods aren't entirely sure where a soul goes after death. IIRC, souls pass through the Shadowfell, but then move on from there.
"Army of Farkness."
The more I hear about 4e divinity, the more I wonder what the point of them is...
Eureka! And Gnomes wins hands down. Kobolds are fodder
The more I hear about 4e divinity, the more I wonder what the point of them is...
Heh, the guy who wrote this blog thinks the same thing, that deities in 4E seem to have been rendered more or less pointless.
G.N.O.M.E - Grand Nentyarchs Of Malevolent Evil :D
When a bunch of 'little men' show up at your door in non-descript black suits and sunglasses, and say "We're from GNOME... please come with us", you know your butt is toast. :P
Now I keep seeing an ugly little gnome telling me he's going to "shag me rotten".
Where do you find these places...
LOL, that blog was linked on Candlekeep, and wound up spending a few hours reading it.:D