Dammit. Now I'll have to go back and look.
---
LK, will you fix that CENSORED signature already!!!
Someone had an agenda.....
Can we all agree not to talk about any novel series, at all?
At least post a spoiler warning or something - 95% of them sicken me.
LK, will you fix that CENSORED signature already!!!
-I don't get it. What needs to be fixed? Nothing is misspelled, and none of the links are broken...
[center][u][size="2"]
That we all see?
More importantly however is the fact that it was restored fifty years later when the ancient Dales Compact with Myth Drannor was reaffirmed in the Year of Seven Sisters (1425 DR), as noted in the Dalelands section of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide.
Moreover, in defense of Rich Baker, I am not sure what is being implied or (more likely) misperceived in terms of an agenda.
After the defeat of Malkizid and House Dlardrageth, the fledgling realm of Myth Drannor was beset by an alliance between Fzoul Chembyrl and the drow houses of Jaerle and Auzkovyn, who sought to crush the elven realm before it could be fully restored. Ilsevele Miritar, the Elven Crusade, the Knights of Myth Drannor, and several of the Seven Sisters acted in concert defending Myth Drannor, the Dalelands, and to that extent Cormanthyr as a whole. Meanwhile, mysterious adventurers (the PCs) liberated Shadowdale from the Army of Darkhope and the agents of Shar and the Shadovar, with the aid of the Ghost Witch Syluné and her fey-blooded nephew Azalar in the Year of Risen Elfkin (1375 DR). The alliance between the Zhentarim and the Masked Brigades was eventually crushed, and forced to acquiesce to terms of truce dictated to them by Ilsevele in the Year of the Bent Blade (1376 DR).
The fruits of these efforts and sacrifices have had an impact on the realms as they now stand:
*The Dalelands and Cormanthyr are now stronger in their unity and serve as a key component in the alliance against risen Netheril
*The Zhentarim no longer pose a threat to the Dales.
*Myth Drannor is a shining city once more.
*Shadowdale serves a gateway for pilgrimage between the Feywild and Myth Drannor, and servants of lost Mystra still dwell in a cottage in Silverhand Farm.
I imagine that Rich Baker was at least consulted with regard to the end result of the events he set into motion with the Last Mythal storyline arc, so if there was an agenda there I surmise it certainly was not a pernicious one.
-No, no I don't.
Try refreshing the screen, jerky - you probably have the sig cashed.
Seriously, what I posted there we all see as your sig (right in front of the Forgotten Realms: Realmslore link).
Moreover, in defense of Rich Baker, I am not sure what is being implied or (more likely) misperceived in terms of an agenda.
-I believe it was being implied that the event served no real purpose, as it wasn't even covered especially, so to speak, and was done for the sake of being done and having the stone toppled.
Try refreshing the screen, jerky - you probably have the sig cashed.
Seriously, what I posted there we all see as your sig (right in front of the Forgotten Realms: Realmslore link).
-You're right. I erased all of my cookies and cahes and everything, and I saw what you were talking about. When I logged back in, though, it was gone. I modified my signature- even though it showed that there was nothing wrong. Is it still all messed up? If it is, I need to get Customer Service, or something.
-I believe it was being implied that the event served no real purpose, as it wasn't even covered especially, so to speak, and was done for the sake of being done and having the stone toppled.
PRECISELY.
It was done merely to do it. If it served some story purpose, I would have no problem with it.
But it's like he went over to it and said "this belongs to Ed?!", and then kicked it over with an malicious gleem in his eye.
That may not be what really happened, but it sure as hell looks that way. He did it just to do it - obviously something about the stone annoyed him. He was taking Myth Drannor for himself, and wanted any connection to Ed completely erased and forgotten.
I have no problem with changes to the Realms - what I have a problem with is people destroying Realms Icons simply becuase it annoyed them personally.
Edit: And just to make myself clear, RB is the ONLY current designer I think is worth anything, so this new info is like getting punched in the stomach.
-You're right. I erased all of my cookies and cahes and everything, and I saw what you were talking about. When I logged back in, though, it was gone. I modified my signature- even though it showed that there was nothing wrong. Is it still all messed up? If it is, I need to get Customer Service, or something.
It looks perfect (and very long) now.
That did it.
In general it is fairly common for an invading army to defile monuments that are either sacred to the inhabitants or offensive to the invaders.
I think the destruction of the Standing Stone served a symbolic dramatic purpose, for reasons covered in the scene and the dialog itself. It reestablished various aspects of Sarya's character: her longevity, her disdain for how far her people had "fallen" to have allied with humans, and to serve to make the reader hate her even more...which makes her ultimate demise all the more enjoyable to read.
I think reforging it in the Year of Seven Sisters is symbolic enough of a homage to Ed Greenwood's characters to overcome any appearence of a slight or agenda in its original fall, specifically if any of the remaining seven were there to contribute to the work.
I think the destruction of the Standing Stone served a symbolic dramatic purpose, for reasons covered in the scene and the dialog itself. It reestablished various aspects of Sarya's character: her longevity, her disdain for how far her people had "fallen" to have allied with humans, and to serve to make the reader hate her even more...which makes her ultimate demise all the more enjoyable to read.
The Standing Stone may have also been of some mystical significance, and she was insuring it could not be used against her down the line.
I think I understand your meaning more clearly, but I still disagree that it's destruction was pointless.
In general it is fairly common for an invading army to defile monuments that are either sacred to the inhabitants or offensive to the invaders.
I agree with everything you posted, but wanted to add to this bit.
I came into the war in Iraq very early and everywhere, EVERYWHERE, we went, there was posters, paintings, mosaics, billboards, monuments and statues of Saddam. We tore them all down, busted them up and erased any and all signs of his rule.
We didn't just do it for ourselves, however, we did it for the hundreds of thousands of people who were used to the tyrants image instilling fear and obedience. We also did it to hurt the morale of the enemy, all the while showing the repressed that they no longer needed to fear.
I think Sarya did it to instill fear, to imply the pact was broken, to lower the morale of her enemies and boost her own troops. Not to mention the ego trip and personal satisfaction...
I think I understand your meaning more clearly, but I still disagree that it's destruction was pointless.
-Given the context of the book, it was fairly pointless to have it featured, as opposed to mentioned elsewhere, such as in AGHotR, or some other book (PoF came out around the same time, and already spoiled the Ilsevele is Coronal ending, so the contents of Final Gate were already available to the writers of PoF.). Note, that's just me speaking, personally. I can't speak for MT. The destruction of the stone was given the most minor of mentions, and never spoke of again. If it served some purpose in the story- the men and women of the Dalelands see the destroyed stone, and redouble their efforts to fight against the army occupying Myth Drannor- I would have very little problem with it. All in all, I don't think very highly of the Dalelands, don't find the area sacred, and don't care if the status-quo is mixed up a bit, as it was. It didn't have much of a purpose in the story, however. It came off much more as "This is broke, and this is gone, and this guy is dead", and so on. Generally, I dislike plot lines in novels and/or comic books that are given a little attention, but seem to serve no purpose, and are never gone back to deal with. Take Adam X-Treme, the "third Summers brother", for example. The character was introduced, given a little bit of star time, and never heard of again. "Metasetting" wise, editors and storyboard designers, and writers come and go, explaining why such things happen, but in the context of whatever the setting is, it's wasteful.
I learned its destruction from the Grand History of The Realms though.
Eh?
I learned its destruction from the Grand History of The Realms though.
-Like I said at the beginning, it's highlighted in Final Gate.
However, was the stone in-fact re-built in the Year of the Seven Sisters (which seems kinda funny now), or is that just wishful thinking on your part?
Thank you for your take on it, Simbul. I at least cansee where you are coming from now (I only readit in the GHotR myself, with no deatails).
However, was the stone in-fact re-built in the Year of the Seven Sisters (which seems kinda funny now), or is that just wishful thinking on your part?
Yes, it was rebuilt in 1425 DR to reaffirm the compact between Elves and men. Curiously, it says that the Drow are the ones that took down the Standing Stone (in the FRCG)...
On the other hand, I'm glad they put it back up. If I ever run a 4eFR Campaign (which I doubt, but stranger things have happened), I already have an idea for a spin I'm going to put on it.
It will be made out of a 'living mineral' from the Elemental plane of earth, and even if someone manages to damage it, it will 'heal' all by itself. Basically an imobile Earth Elemental.
No more hurtin' ED's Standing Stone!!!
You have no CENSORED right to pull valid posts that have no incursion into your rules.
It's, like. shooting MT because he's in the CENSORED vicinity.
It will be made out of a 'living mineral' from the Elemental plane of earth, and even if someone manages to damage it, it will 'heal' all by itself. Basically an imobile Earth Elemental.
-That's an interesting idea. When the Humans forged the pact with the Elves, throw a little High Magic on that piece of rock, and there you go.
Curiously, it says that the Drow are the ones that took down the Standing Stone (in the FRCG)...
Thats most certainly incorrect. Where does it state this exactly? I couldn't find it.
Thats most certainly incorrect. Where does it state this exactly? I couldn't find it.
On pg 108, under Dalelands lore, Mistledale section.
Ashabenford, the capital, has grown remarkably over the last century and now serves as the seat of the Dales Council. This organization has grown real teeth since Sembia began to conquer dales. The age-old Dales compact was reaffirmed with Myth Drannor in the Year of Seven Sisters (1425 DR) and the Standing Stone was restored. This renowned symbol of that agreement had been destroyed by drow roughly fifty years earlier.
Now, in AGHotR's, it does say Saryra had torn it down and made an alliance with the drow at the same time... I'll have to re-read the RB books to see if it sheds light on this.
On pg 108, under Dalelands lore, Mistledale section.
Well I'll be damned. Being that I wrote the Dalelands chapter I went back and reviewed my turnover. That sentence is not there, so someone must have added it later. The destruction of the Standing Stone does happen "off camera" in Final Gate but I never got the impression that the drow were involved.
If I had to reconcile the discrepancy on the fly, I’d say that the fey’ri needed help from the drow to accomplish the task somehow. Or perhaps they just allowed their new allies to participate in the desecration.
Sarya looks at it in disgust, and says "That HAS TO come down!", and her lieutenant says "I'll take care of it", and then their Drow liasons say "ooohhh... can WE do it?", and he says "sure... go for it..."
Seriously, with all the major lore snafus floating around, this one is not even worth getting irritated over.
Well I'll be damned. Being that I wrote the Dalelands chapter.
This is interesting... The Dales have been a favored spot for myself for a long time. I really enjoyed this section, but I have a question for you.
Did you have free reign to come up with what you liked or is/was there stepping stones you had to cross?
I'm sure those Eberron books are going to be PERFECT.
Amazing how many things got passed everyone... almost as if there were sabotage involved...
This has been brought up before--it wasn't quite lost on us all.
But whatever, its not like I acually play this silly game anymore.
Coincidence or conspiracy?
I still enjoy FR though, so I'm standing by that... for now.
Did you have free reign to come up with what you liked or is/was there stepping stones you had to cross?
The Dalelands chapter was already roughed out when I came on board, but I was tasked with expanding it to six pages. At first I wasn’t sure what details, if any, were set in stone (e.g. Insane Elminster, Headless Zhent), so I worked around and added to the existing text. Later I discovered that Bruce (Cordell, the project lead) was pretty open to changes so I made another pass at the chapter to bring more of my design philosophy to bear. It’s not an accident that the Dalelands chapter has quite a few timeline events scattered throughout it covering the 100 year gap. If I had more time, I would have asked to do the same throughout the rest of the book. Remember, I was added to the team very late in the process. Everything I contributed was originally assigned to Ed Greenwood; who was unable to finish due to the passing of his father.
...if any, were set in stone (e.g. Insane Elminster, Headless Zhent)...
Brian, I like you. Don't put yourself and the Headless Zhent in the same context.
PLEASE!!
Off topic here, LK I believe the third Summers brother is now Emperor Vulcan of the Shair empire but I could be mistaken.....
I thought that was Mr. Spock?
Off topic here, LK I believe the third Summers brother is now Emperor Vulcan of the Shair empire but I could be mistaken.....
-Yes, yes he is. But, the entire Adam X-Treme stuff is garbage now (not that it wasn't then, in terms of quality, anyway). He was intended to be the third Summers Brother, by the way. A demonstration as to the effect that rotating writers and designers and all of that has on continuity.
The Dalelands chapter was already roughed out when I came on board, but I was tasked with expanding it to six pages. At first I wasn’t sure what details, if any, were set in stone (e.g. Insane Elminster, Headless Zhent), so I worked around and added to the existing text. Later I discovered that Bruce (Cordell, the project lead) was pretty open to changes so I made another pass at the chapter to bring more of my design philosophy to bear. It’s not an accident that the Dalelands chapter has quite a few timeline events scattered throughout it covering the 100 year gap. If I had more time, I would have asked to do the same throughout the rest of the book. Remember, I was added to the team very late in the process. Everything I contributed was originally assigned to Ed Greenwood; who was unable to finish due to the passing of his father.
Thank you for your response. I like what you did with the Dales, btw, (yes, even the headless Zhent, who is a lich, people, and a juicy adventure hook) and hope you can expand on the area in the future.
If he's a Lich, he's gonna have one helluva time evolving into a demi-lich.
I don't think he'll be doing that, anyways... and if he wanted to, it wouldn't require his skull, any would work once it is prepared and the Ritual is cast.
If he's a Lich, he's gonna have one helluva time evolving into a demi-lich.
-Hmm...A good point. Well, if one head is gone, there's always...
I don't think he'll be doing that, anyways... and if he wanted to, it wouldn't require his skull, any would work once it is prepared and the Ritual is cast.
-It would indeed require a skull. All a Demilich is is a skull. It's hard to make sushi if you don't got fish.
-It would indeed require a skull. All a Demilich is is a skull. It's hard to make sushi if you don't got fish.
Ok... this is what I said... he wouldn't need his skull, any would work.
-Whoops. I read 'a' skull, not 'his' skull.
Ahh, that's all good then... but you had me re-reading my post a dozen times to see what I might have missed!
No big deal, though, it keeps me on my toes.
;)
The Headless Horseman = Headless Zhent.
It's that simple and that simple.
No praise. No acceptance!
Revolt!!
Anyway, he could be one of those weird liches I theorized in another thread - the Psuedo-Lich - which combines a normal Archlich with a Demilich.
Basically, the body is so old and decrepit that it no longer is usable without badly damaging it, so the Lich performs yet another ritual to 'ascend' to the higher state of Lichdom.
His head - wreathed in flames - is able to travel about all by itself, working all sorts of mischief (there are several canon examples of similar things in lore, from the FR comic to the Skulls of Skullport). However, unlike the normal 'flying, flaming skulls', it needs to return to its body every so often - its almost like a Lich-version of a Penanggalan.
Once the ritual is complete, the body can no longer move, and only the skull can move around and interact with others (the body could very-well be acting as it's phylactory).
On the other hand, what if our boy here finds himself a flaming skull - like I said, there are many of these in the lore, not just in Skullport. He takes his newly found 'head' and starts wearing it in his nightly rides.
What you got right there is the Ghost Rider. :D
You can't morally defend something like this.
Anyway, he could be one of those weird liches I theorized in another thread - the Psuedo-Lich - which combines a normal Archlich with a Demilich.
-There's no reason to go that far. Demiliches can use the 'projection' ability that is the main "thing" with Archliches, and vice-versa- an Archlich (or any Lich) can be so decrepit to just being a skull.
C'mon, I just combined the Flaming Skulls of Skullport with a Lich and one of the grossest monsters ever created, mentioned uber-Kewl Ghost Rider, and then tied it all to the incredibly cheesy headless Zhent!
You try to do that much 'Shiney' with crap lore.
Yeah, but mine is cooler, 'cause its like an undead Penanggalean... and stuff. :P
-A what?
-And interesting idea would be having a Lich bind it's essence to the Standing Stone, and make it it's phylactery. Who is going to destroy that, knowing the repercussions, even if they know it contains the Lich's essence?
I'm not sure if it ever made it into 3e.
-A what?
-And interesting idea would be having a Lich bind it's essence to the Standing Stone, and make it it's phylactery. Who is going to destroy that, knowing the repercussions, even if they know it contains the Lich's essence?
Yeah.
And dig it.
Though, while its a sweet idea, only the most retarded would do it.
Penanggalan - its basicallty a normal human woman by day, and hen at night it becomes a vampire-like creature. Its head detaches - dragging all ofiyts orgfans along behind it, and flies around drinking the blood of innocent vistims. One was featred in one of those [i]Realms of...[i] anthologies.
-I thought you were being facetious until you mentioned that it was in one of those books...
Because she never taught her friend to read, she couldn't read a simple warning and was killed by one of those... and then turned into one.
And out of guilt, she helped her for years and years...
It was a pretty morbid story, but then again, its a pretty morbid monster. I know I saw a decent pic of it somewhere, but I haven't been abl to locate it in any of the 3e sources.
Maybe it was a pic from an old 2e MM I'm thinking of...
Anyway, for the spelling (and there's supposed to be one of those 'u' shaped thingies over the first 'e'), I had to go back to my 1e Fiend Folio.
Hey! Ya know... I didn't think to check the 3e version of that... I think...
And don't quote me before I fix all my typos next time!!! That last one was beut.
Edit: Found it, but they changed both it's appearance and name in 3e - to the Varguiile (it was cooler before). It was in the stupid MM after all! (thank goodness for Wiki :P)
Almost as disturbing as hopping, keening vampires of Kara-Tur.
Undead are scarier when their head is more likely to scream or produce ancient gibberrish. Headless undead are boring. (except for an expressive Crawling Crawler Undead Hand giving the finger offcourse)
___
In the common view of fearunians taking down symbolism must be sacrilege. Especially in world filled with magical runes, divine symbols and real consequences to curses.
I like the confusion that the stone was taken down by drow, when fey-ri ordered it happenend. Perhaps it was a tougher nut to crack then Sarya thought, ballbuster that she is. I can imagine some hilarious scenes of failed attempts to destroy the stone.
So....ahem. How 'bout them Dalelands?
Good question... do you, or anyone else for that matter, have any plans on expanding on what we know?
So....ahem. How 'bout them Dalelands?
Awww, c'mon....
We were pickin' on 3e for once. :D
otherwise the Zhents or Sembians would have destroyed it years ago
so maybe it was leveled for a day or two and when the fey'ri army passed it grew back
alternatively, my version of it would be that they're based on megaliths (from the Immortals box, the largest life-forms in the multiverse, basically immune to damage), they are immobile sentient constructs built by the leshays, some of that knowledge was passed on to elves in much less powerful form
Wow... that brings me back...
I don't remember Megaliths, though, but then again, I wasn't DMing OD&D, just playing in it.
There is a little-known metal in the Marvel universe called Plandanium (which was what the Spaceknights wore), which was actually a form of 'living metal' which was able to 'heal' (repair) itself. I have a similar mineral on my campaign world, which can be refined (like in the comics), but also can be found in its 'pure' mineral state.
I assume something like that for the Standing Stone - it is the basis for all life in the plane of Elemental Earth (think of it as that plane's version of bacteria).
Anyway, I figured I'd just share my thoughts, I want to create an animated GIF so bad (I have a very funny idea), but I have never tried to do so, and I wouldn't know where to begin.
yes, the Standing Stone was raised by powerful high magic (that Sarya cannot match), any damage done to it causes the self-repairing
otherwise the Zhents or Sembians would have destroyed it years ago
so maybe it was leveled for a day or two and when the fey'ri army passed it grew back
-I didn't even remember that, and yet:
It will be made out of a 'living mineral' from the Elemental plane of earth, and even if someone manages to damage it, it will 'heal' all by itself.
-That's an interesting idea. When the Humans forged the pact with the Elves, throw a little High Magic on that piece of rock, and there you go.
-Good ol' cryptomnesia.
According to previous canon, it couldn't have been knocked down in the first place.
Reconciliation: After it was knocked down, folks found it standing again, so they assumed soemone had put it back up, and while various rumours abound, the most commonly accepted one is that the elven court re-erected it (which they don't bother to deny). The truth is the stone repaired it self, as it is designed to do. Sarya did indeed completely obliterate it, which is why it took longer then usually to 'grow back'.
-That's all that needs to be said.
FRS1, Pg.55, The Dalelands
The Standing Stone
Located near the intersection of Rauthauvyr's Road and the Moonsea Ride, The Standing Stone is an ancient artifact that marks the pact of Elf and Man that founded the Dalelands. It is a gray obelisk 20 feet in height covered in mysterious runes. The stone resists all attempts to deface or mar its surface, healing all such damage quickly.
Accent, mine. I guess she couldn't have destroyed it - it just wasn't possible, even with my paltry explanation above.