None of these will be perfect of course, but I think it should be fun.
Here's my personal bit of Fan Continuity. The destruction of the Weave blasted the whole of the people of Toril with countless amounts of raw magic that was released from the unravelling of the Weave. This resulted in the Spellscarred and many people being consumed utterly by the Spell Plague. However, the survivors have all become mutated to be naturally connected to magic. Thus, everyone on Toril is now capable of channeling Raw Magic directly from the Weave if trained how. The Weave is no longer necessary as an Intermediary between them.
Magic was always in the world, the weave was just one way to tap it. Losing the weave meant people had to find a different way. It's in the book, follows cannon and makes sense.
Nah, I don't buy it. If the Weave was really gone without an explanation, that's the end of it. No psionics, no sorcery, no spell casting and no way to recover any of that because you can't find new ways to access magic without the Weave.
Continuity disagrees... people have used magic without the weave.
I'm 'm not going to argue with you on the issue but I don't consider your argument that continuity supports you behind this to be valid. I'm sorry, but we're just going to have to disagree on this. I think you're wrong.
Has the Weave ever really been needed to cast magic? For instance, I'm sure plenty of Wizards from the Realms have done some planehopping, going to places like Sigil or Oerth, where there is no Weave. And I'm guessing their spellcasting worked just fine. So does the Weave actually grant the ability to cast magic, or does it just regulate the way that magic is cast on Toril (with magic going out of control once you essentially "break all the dams" which is the weave until it settles down)?
My assumption is that the Weave was always accessible on those worlds by the wizards casting it. Thus, a Wizard who arrives in Dark Sun, where magic is granted by the sapping of life from the world would not suddenly kill plants. Likewise, the magic on Krynn is granted by the Three Moons yet if he arrived on Faerun, then he wouldn't be gaining his power from the Weave suddenly.
The different sorts of magic all achieve similiar affects but don't draw from the same source of power. Like killing a man with a gun versus a spell.
Nah, I don't buy it. If the Weave was really gone without an explanation, that's the end of it. No psionics, no sorcery, no spell casting and no way to recover any of that because you can't find new ways to access magic without the Weave.
Psionics and the weave
Unlike spells which derive their power from Faerun's Weave (or the Shadow Weave), psionic ability taps only the inner reserves of the manifester.
Psionics would not be directly affected by the loss of the weave, however the affects of the spellplague could potentially alter the manner in which psionic beings manifest their powers.
You don't have to believe me, but it is canon that magic could (and has been) used without the weave.
... shadow weave... check
... psionics... check
... ... ugh... ... magic of a sort, yes, but not arcane, divine, or any other kind of magic that has been used by and large by the whole of faerun.
Then there's the fact that every time the god/dess of magic went away, so did all magic, including a lot of the magic that somehow survived the spellplague.
This means that the magic in use now uses a new weave (implying a god or goddess of magic, whom is explicitly said to not exist in the new setting), psionics (which would contradict the 4e rules on the spellcasting classes as introduced in the PHB, or a form of magic that has never existed in the forgotten realms before - eg. not arcane or divine.
In other words, a form of magic that wizards and clerics shouldn't be using at all - making the idea ridiculous in its premise.
Therefore, for the time being I think magic will have multiple sources (i.e. arcane, shadow, etc.). Until such time as a new god/goddess of magic ascends and recreates the weave (i.e. blending the various sources of raw magic together and buffering them) magic will remain lessened and more dependant upon rituals.
This is somewhat similar to what occurred in Dragonlance during the 5th Age. I think soon enough they will elevate a new deity and improve upon the magic system in place.
You don't have to believe me, but it is canon that magic could (and has been) used without the weave.
I agree. CP, you're really just closing you eyes and yelling no to this. I don't think theres anything wrong with having no weave, nor do I think that it isn't easily explained.
The Weave allowed for regulation of magic, and a way for magic to sustain itself as the Great Tree drifted in and out of known spheres. When the weave collapsed, all that pent up energy tore through Realms space, once more opening up the world to the magic that is inherent in the universe.
Only the Realms needed a weave, all other settings worked without one. So it stands to reason that with the Weave gone, the people of Toril will be able to join the rest of the multiverse in natural magic.
In a 3.5 campaign, I used to play up on the weave to raw magic transition. When porting from Realmspace to a Homebrew world, there was a sessions adjustment for my wizard.
-RW
I agree. CP, you're really just closing you eyes and yelling no to this. I don't think theres anything wrong with having no weave, nor do I think that it isn't easily explained.
I'm not trying to do so. I just don't believe him and remain unconvinced. The fact is that he's stating as fact what has been contradicted on numerous other occasions. Bluntly, it's hard to have missed those other instances and I dislike his dismissing of them. I'm not disputing there's evidence for his side, it's just its contradictory evidence from the authors.
He's welcome to give his opinion but I'm not going to argue the point on it, there's other things to discuss.
This is somewhat similar to what occurred in Dragonlance during the 5th Age.
Bonus points for (likely) unintended humor. :P
I think soon enough they will elevate a new deity and improve upon the magic system in place.
While this would make sense, I find it doubtful based on the designers' statements thus far that this is in the offing, at least in the near future.
Overall, I think what the evolution of "Weave Theory" and magic theory in the Realms in general does is to just highlight inconsistencies period, not just in 4E, but in 3E as well. Either the Weave is the only source of magic, or there are other ways to access it. If there can be a Shadow Weave, then what's to say there aren't an infinite number of other ways to get to it?
The notion of the Weave was a reasonable one, in general - but they started mucking with it in 3E, then decided they'd gone too far and trashed the whole thing, but they don't seem to have achieved an improvement by what they did (in my opinion).
Spellfire is refined, controlled, raw magic.
...
The Weave acts as both a barrier and a gate between raw magic and the world
Spellfire would still be accessible even without the weave. SO it is cannon that magic can be used without the weave.
Karsus could also access Raw Spell Magic and the Shadow Weave existed to.
I still don't like "and the Weave was never important" from a thematic setting point of view and any fanon explanation for why magic is accessible is going to reflect that in my games.
I don't know, the topic just feels so played out by now.
actually I originally thought people would post their own fan answers to other topics.
Pssst,
actually I originally thought people would post their own fan answers to other topics.
Oh.
After Tyr perished defeating the host of demons that attacked the Upper Realms, Lathander realized that the Forces of Good had been severely weakened by the Spell Plague and that the Realms required a strong civilized hand to govern it with the death of justice. He thus absorbed all of Tyr's essence into himself and his portfolios, transforming himself from Tyr to Amaunator again. However, unlike his old self, he was more concerned with justice than law.
You see my point, right? Saying you see, in canon, where it is that magic can be used without the weave, but not thinking it can be done...?
I wasn't trying to start a debate, just saying it is already canon and explained.
Personally, I hope we can avoid the whole "Rising/Noon/Setting" thing that didn't make a whole lot of sense in Netheril.
You see my point, right? Saying you see, in canon, where it is that magic can be used without the weave, but not thinking it can be done...?
Actually, I stand by everything I've said. I don't think we're discussing the same thing to be honest and I've already said my peace. I'm sure others are convinced by your rationale.
Why did Lathander become Amaunator?
After Tyr perished defeating the host of demons that attacked the Upper Realms, Lathander realized that the Forces of Good had been severely weakened by the Spell Plague and that the Realms required a strong civilized hand to govern it with the death of justice. He thus absorbed all of Tyr's essence into himself and his portfolios, transforming himself from Tyr to Amaunator again. However, unlike his old self, he was more concerned with justice than law.
Going back to his roots? There were a great many heretics among his followers.
Through the use of Raw magic (the magic of the universe) Mystryl was born. She became a manifestation of the magic that is inherent in all things across the Multiverse.
Once Ao stepped in to prevent the worlds destruction, he set in place the fail safe that was Mystryl, that the power to command gods and primordials, would never be in the hands of mortals again. To this end, Mystryl created the Weave. Through it, she dampered the powers of the universe, and controlled the potential power any one being could access.
These restrictions didn't hamper High magic users, as they used themselves to fuel the spells in question. however, when Karsus came along, he saw magic as it truly was, and the weave as the barrier it was meant to be. Through the use of powerful rituals, he was able to tear a whole in the Weave, and draw upon Mystryls raw essence. Since she was a focus of the universes power, he was able to to create the spell we know as Karsus Avatar. This was what Ao had dreaded happening again, and perhaps through his guidence, Mystryls falling form found the girl who would ascend as the new goddess of Magic.
However, Ao had a new dictate. To prevent such a thing from happening again, he decreed that Mystra would have to pour a portion of her Raw power into divine vessels, that her energy would never be focused, and tappable again. These of course were the chosen.
Now Mystras chosen served a purpose. They were there to check her power. The chosen of Other gods were made as nothing more than Pawns. After the ToT, and Aos banning of divine interference, they needed a way to compete with Mystra new unchecked (though percieve) advantage.
With the deaths of several chosen pre spellplague, that power once more returned to its source, and like a long unused dam, it swelled to dangerous levels. With her death, the Dam was destroyed beyond control, which was the aspect unsuspected by Shar. She was assuming there would be a measure of delay with the death, time enough for her to collect up the flow, and siphon it into her own divine tank. The sudden surge of power was uncontainable, though she tried, using the Shadowweave as a breakwater of sorts. However, the universe always wins, and the surge of pent up raw magic oblitterated Mystra, the Shadow weave, and Dweomer heart, before it could be contained.
This also explains in part the blue fire, where before there had been none. Dweomers broken, and the weave collapsing, the raw energy that was Mystra dissapated, and in it's wake shreded the delecate fabric of reality, setting the world as it might have been had Mystra never happened.
Why then might you ask were spells more numerous and powerful in previous editions? The universe is vast, perhaps infinite, so the raw magic was diluted across the expanse. Spells of such power were only possible because of the focus Mystra/ Mystryl created. In effect, she was an atomic weapon. The focusing of great power into a single volatile point.
Ao I would assume knew this from the beginning, however his initial decision was two fold. He wanted to check the power of mortals with Mystryls weave, to prevent the destruction of Abeir and Toril, however he also wanted to prevent Shar from Undoing what he had done. Mystryl was the edge Selune needed to give the flegling words a chance. Distant though he may be, he sees little reason to have created everything, only to let his lesser snuff it out again.
I think that covers everything. I'll post, and proof it after.
-RW
Going back to his roots? There were a great many heretics among his followers.
Can you cite a source for that?
So what's your take?
Personally, I hope we can avoid the whole "Rising/Noon/Setting" thing that didn't make a whole lot of sense in Netheril.
Well, personally, I always thought that theory was partially accurate. I just didn't think the part about the three of them being one facet of a greater god made sense. However, the other part, that only two aspects of the sun could be active at once, seems to be true.
We had Amaunator and Jergal (highsun and dusk). Then we had Myrkul and Lathander (dusk and dawn). Then we had Lathander, alone (dawn). Highsun was bound to return, and following that would've been a period in which highsun and dusk were in ascendance, at which point you may as well put a toe-tag on Lathander. Maybe becoming Amaunator was his way out? Lay claim to two out of the three solar aspects and you ensure that you'll always be in existence. Wouldn't be the first time. After all, it may not entirely be coincidental that Jergal ducked out from the role of God of Dusk when he did. He may have been trying to avoid falling victim to that cycle, too.
Can you cite a source for that?
...I'd really like to, but, to tell the truth, I just moved back to SoCal and all my 3.x books are in storage whilst I work on buying a home. I'm (mostly) going off spotty memory (thus why I didn't give any examples for the magic subject) and in no way do I presume I know this 100%. My mind isn't what it use to be.
That said, I remember reading stuff about a number of his followers saying he was Amaunator reborn and would be again soon.... and wasn't there a PrC and the like for it?
-That said, that doesn't mean that there were a lot of heretics in Lathanders following, as compared to "normal" worshipers, but that we knew of Lathanderite heresies, as opposed to other faiths that we did not know much about. The other Lathanderite heresy is that of the Three-Faced Sun, discussed earlier.
I was talking more about the "there were a great many heretics among his followers" part. That strikes me as weasel-worded (and despite the term, I don't mean that in a pejorative sense).
It was touched on primarily in the "Powers of Faerun" sourcebook. It had a whole section dedicated to Heretics, and particularily the Amaunator Heracy.
-RW
-The heresy of the Risen Sun. Bunch of damned heretics...
There we go.... I knew I wasn't going crazy... er, more crazy...
...I'd really like to, but, to tell the truth, I just moved back to SoCal and all my 3.x books are in storage whilst I work on buying a home. I'm (mostly) going off spotty memory (thus why I didn't give any examples for the magic subject) and in no way do I presume I know this 100%. My mind isn't what it use to be.
Fair enough, on all points.;)
That said, I remember reading stuff about a number of his followers saying he was Amaunator reborn and would be again soon.... and wasn't there a PrC and the like for it?
Yes, but that doesn't mean said cult amounted to "many" of Lathander's followers (of course, "many" is a pretty vague term).
It was touched on primarily in the "Powers of Faerun" sourcebook. It had a whole section dedicated to Heretics, and particularily the Amaunator Heracy.
-RW
But since Lathander became Amaunator, doesnt that mean that they WEREN'T a heresy, but the true believers, and it was actually the REST of the church that was heretical? *chuckles*
But since Lathander became Amaunator, doesnt that mean that they WEREN'T a heresy, but the true believers, and it was actually the REST of the church that was heretical? *chuckles*
No, since they haven't actually said that Lathander became Amaunator, and since at the time they should have been worshiping Lathander, they were worshiping Amaunator. Hence a heresy at the time. Now that Amaunator has been restored, his worshipers are not heretics, but if they began to worship him as Lathander, that would be heresy.
But since Lathander became Amaunator, doesnt that mean that they WEREN'T a heresy, but the true believers, and it was actually the REST of the church that was heretical? *chuckles*
-Nope.
Fair enough, on all points.;)
Yes, but that doesn't mean said cult amounted to "many" of Lathander's followers (of course, "many" is a pretty vague term).
That is my catch-all dear, I try to be vague so as not to be wrong...
That is my catch-all dear, I try to be vague so as not to be wrong...
-You're always wrong. That's your MO, being wrong. It's what your known for. You're the kwronghunter. You take it to a new level. You make it an artform. Disciples line up at your door to study your ways.
-And, I've got no more...;)
Who leaked my secret!...
That is my catch-all dear, I try to be vague so as not to be wrong...
Well no one can be right all the time.
Well no one can be right all the time.
And yet... I am! :D
Well no one can be right all the time.
I know... it doesn't stop me from trying, however.
I think it's important to understand why there were such huge population shifts. The only plausible reason (let's leave out whole countries exploding for the moment) would be sickness. During the problems of the Spellplague, how long were clerics unable to cure disease. With our main source of purifying things (be it food/water/etc) out of action, how many lovely bugs were floating around the Realms (that people remember and would be worried about).
Scarlet Shakes:
An air borne illness, easily spread, incubation period of 48 hours before symptoms show. Symptoms include bright red patches covering the body (darker coloring for non caucasions) and flu like symptoms followed by uncontrollable tremors (after 72 hours) until the lungs fill with fluid and death (after 96 hours). Whole villages were wiped out inside of a week. If a victim was heard of/seen, the village would be quarantined with anyone who tried to escape being put to death (prefferably from ranged weapons). The villages and all bodies were burned after a period of two weeks (the shortest that anyone was willing to wait before checking).
What else can we come up with that would fit into the Realms (and how would it spread quickly enough to wipe out large numbers of the population)?
What else can we come up with that would fit into the Realms (and how would it spread quickly enough to wipe out large numbers of the population)?
-Calashite Sand Fever...That's a good one. I'll have to use it some time...
-Calashite Sand Fever...That's a good one. I'll have to use it some time...
Something brought out of some dusty tomb by one of the Genasi? Sounds like a fun time had by all (on the sending side that is).
Burning fever and postules similiar to those caused by mummy rot but natural and more painful because of that. Spread by skin to skin contact and ingestion (through contaminated food/water). Used by both sides during the war it has caused many old oasis to become unusable due to poisoned wells (most often caused by dropping an infected body into the well).
Throw in some venomous fauna that might be an irritant to the inhabitants of Abeir but poisonous on Toril. I would imagine all kinds of debris rained from the skies during this time from all kinds of places. The explanations are only limited by our imaginations and what we could possibly swipe from other settings.
Anyone have an explanation for why no replacement for Azuth or Mystra? Is it possible that AO lost contact with the Realms or was told to let them figure it out for themselves?
Anyone have an explanation for why no replacement for Azuth or Mystra? Is it possible that AO lost contact with the Realms or was told to let them figure it out for themselves?
-Canon has already stated that Shar is doing something to prevent another deity of magic from manifesting itself. As for Azuth, well, he isn't inherently necessary or anything, and his divinity was already taken by Asmodeus.
Has the Weave ever really been needed to cast magic? For instance, I'm sure plenty of Wizards from the Realms have done some planehopping, going to places like Sigil or Oerth, where there is no Weave. And I'm guessing their spellcasting worked just fine. So does the Weave actually grant the ability to cast magic, or does it just regulate the way that magic is cast on Toril (with magic going out of control once you essentially "break all the dams" which is the weave until it settles down)?
Actualy the magic used to work the same way every where...the Weave is what the people from the Realms just called it. Then they had to for some reason define it. Though they could have just left it intact and still have 4th ed magic system just fine.
Also if it casting using the Weave regulates it(thus having a effect on it) then wouldn't the same planehopping wizards cast differently and be either weaker(because the Weave acted like a crutch) or stronger( because they had to deal with the restrictions of the weave...think of it as wearing a weight for the day and taking it off the next). No every word had a 'Weave' back in the day.
That maybe people can come up with answears.
Now during the Spellplague pretty much casters( I think it was only arcane casters) went insane and unleashed furies of uncontroled magics. So how exactly did say Waterdeep deal with this, or Baldur's Gate, and why are the witches still in control of Rasheman considering that they are arcane spellcasters?
Atleast it is interesting use of creativity. I even have a answear for one how the witches retained full power over Rasheman...but I'll wait till what other come up with first.
"Many creatures that had been able to cast spells and channel magic through the Weave found themselves powerless in the Spellplague's wake. Some never regained their abilities. Others attuned themselves to the new magical environment, aided by a diversity of talents, a process that took days for some and years for others. Still others took shortcuts to arcane power by swearing pacts to enigmatic beings."
AS for the Weave, it does mention the ancient Netherese being aware that you didn't need the Weave to cast. Karsus?
Not everyone touched by the spellplague/Mystra's death that was a caster was driven insane and unleashed furies of uncontrolled magics; or had major effects of spells going out of control; in fact I can't find anything that says that happened. Here's what the FRCS sez on the matter (p50):
"Many creatures that had been able to cast spells and channel magic through the Weave found themselves powerless in the Spellplague's wake. Some never regained their abilities. Others attuned themselves to the new magical environment, aided by a diversity of talents, a process that took days for some and years for others. Still others took shortcuts to arcane power by swearing pacts to enigmatic beings."
AS for the Weave, it does mention the ancient Netherese being aware that you didn't need the Weave to cast. Karsus?
I think that was a added bit of lore(though yes you don't need the weave to cast magic...though the Weave has been defined soo many time it is well frustrating to get the lore on it)
I think I am remember preveiw artcles that stae wizards going insane and causing incredible amount of destruction...so is the articles lore? I mean w/ DDI wouldn't they have to be?
None of us can fully trust any of the creation mythos (i.e. where Mystra came from initially). All we know is that the current system of arcane spells that work, works through Mystra, who IS the Weave. The Weave is an infinite series of handles that let mortals harness the natural energies of Toril. The Weave is magic, but only part of magic (the arcane spells sort of magic), and "magic" is really only a mortal term for "a way I got power from somewhere to do this and that and this other effect." There. Clear as mud. :}
So saith Ed.
As he said: clear as mud.
Once again: clear as mud :D
Question One: What's the source of magic now that the Weave is gone?
Here's my personal bit of Fan Continuity. The destruction of the Weave blasted the whole of the people of Toril with countless amounts of raw magic that was released from the unravelling of the Weave. This resulted in the Spellscarred and many people being consumed utterly by the Spell Plague. However, the survivors have all become mutated to be naturally connected to magic. Thus, everyone on Toril is now capable of channeling Raw Magic directly from the Weave if trained how. The Weave is no longer necessary as an Intermediary between them.
Mystra remembers the torment of being a mortal during the Time of Trouble, as well as the past history of her predecessors. She did not wish Abeir-Toril to ever again be deprived of magic or have her realm and powers end up in the hands of her foes in the event of her death.
Somehow she arranged it that when this event occurred, she imbued the essence of magic upon Abeir-Toril. The Forgotten Realms' exposure to so much magic caused the Spellplague, as the people and the lands coped with this unexpected result.
Now the "somehow" is where I'm stuck. Does it tie into the voices in Elminster's head? Is that completely separate? Ideas would be appreciated.
Luckily, for her and the world, it was done just enough that Shar couldn't control it. Unfortunately, it wasn't complete and it ushered in the Spellplague as it worked out the last of the uncontrolled weave...?
Another thought comes to mind - did the Weave - and Mystra- before control ki, primordial and divine magic (as well as all the other sources that may come out)? If she did, perhaps part of the effect of her plan was to unravel the Weave to its individual threads, making it much harder to control or to reunite. That unbinding of various powers could also be another cause for the Spellplague.
One hundred years and a worldwide disaster takes a toll on continuity. I think that was the point. Its much simpler and cleaner to deal with the now then fill in the huge gaping holes left by the time jump and the spellplague. Again, I think that was the point.
Sure it was, among other reasons. That doesn't stop fans from filling in the blanks, though...
Sure it was, among other reasons. That doesn't stop fans from filling in the blanks, though...
Just depends on priorities. There are two ways of looking at the Realms. One is the lore angle, and filling in the blanks is your bread and butter. The other is the running a game angle, where the amount of effort needed to fill in the blanks doesn't really justify the effort, and detracts from dealing with the present. I tend to look at things from the game angle.
I found Charles Phipps' question and conundrum intriguing, and am trying to think up an answer that I could work with.
EDIT: Just read your last post - we're thinking of two campaigns in my home: one in the late 1380's and one in 1479.
Bel