After many years of not really touching the FR for a myriad of reasons, 4th edition and its FRCG has made me decide to shelve my homebrew (for further development), and start a FR4E campaign. Though I prefer the layout, and presentation of the product, and actually like the streamlining of certain elements, other items grate me the wrong way.
The vast changes in the setting have resulted in something that is essentially a nuclear bomb going off, instead of using multiple conventional load cruise missiles to take of the problem. In other words they should have used a scalpel instead of a chainsaw.
Anyway I wanted real change in the setting for many years and I finally got it, but you know be careful what you wish for. I liked most of the product line before 4E minus some RSE's which occured in novels, new classes derived from novels, the proliferation of extreme high level NPC's, and did I mention more crap from the novels being adapted to the game and thrown in with useful stuff. So being pressed for time and wanting to get my 4E games off the ground FR began to look extremely attractive especially with the new cosmology (thank you feywild and shadowfell), however I would still like to have a good 90% of past edition material be 1) easily converted to use/updated, and 2) still be relevant to a degree.
This has finally led me to the point where I will be doing a major rewrite of key items for my campaign and naturally I would like constructive advice from people (regardless of which edition you like) regarding what I am doing.
I am going to lay out a general wide brushstroke of what I am going to change:
1) The 100 year jump in my opinion was a good idea and while it got rid of "baggage" it also made all of the good stuff in the "baggage" pretty useless. So I intend to set the game in 1395 or so. This should give a long enough period of time to throw the "baggage" over the side without it taking out the good stuff. So Q1 is when exactly did the 3.xFR stop timeline wise? I want to set it basically twenty years after that so if my 1395 guesstimate is wrong let me know.
2) The Spellplague itself ranks up there with the Time of Troubles in my book for the Cheese of the Century Award. I don't like the reason it occurred, the duration, or the lasting effects. There is nothing wrong with a quick and dirty cataclysmic event. I did not need it to continue being an issue for a hundred years. So in my campaign I am still having Mystra dead (because I think the "Chosen" need a shake up, not a complete removal. I never really liked the concept of the weave, shadow weave, or a Goddess having all encompassing power over magic it did not work with 3e for me and definitely does not with 4e and power sources. Definitely a hold over from a less cooperative time in gaming.) , but not murdered. Instead of Cyric offing her she chooses to sacrifice herself to take out the shadow weave. This does set off many of the other changes in FR4E. It does not cause monstrous changes to the geography of the FR (thusly I can easily use my interactive atlas
). What geographical changes would you keep? Would you keep the plaguelands, and spellscarred? Why?3) I like the winnowing of the Gods (I don't like directly intervening Gods, I prefer the work behind the scenes and use my pawns errrr... loyal worshiper type of God.), in the sense of some gods being worshiped under different guises yet being the same God. I don't think blowing them up and having AO sort it out was really the right way to go. I will get back to this when I have time to really work on it (low priority task for me). Which gods were removed that should not have? Why? (Please I want real answers, just liking a God is not good enough for me here. How is this God fulfilling a real job in the setting from a design not flavor viewpoint?)
4) The new cosmology is one of the greatest improvements of the setting with the introduction of the feywild and shadowfell (and no Shar did not do a damn thing to make it, tired of that old record). I realize there are suggestions for introducing both and where and how. Where else would you place new intrusions by both that would be appropriate to older lore? One thing I am very interested in the potential of real friction between the True Eladrin and their devolved cousins the Sun and Moon Elves ;). I am tempted to make the Sun and Moon Elves use the Eladrin bonuses, but get the Elf encounter ability. What do you think?
5) The Chosen do need to be winnowed, just because their goddess does move on. Which ones should sacrifice themselves to give Mystra the extra juice she needed to bring about the change? Which ones survive and what are they doing now? Have any become a Chosen of another God? A crazy Elminster or a hermit more in keeping with the Old Sage vis Mystra's Boomstick (of course you could argue the Simbul was the Boomstick)?
6) What old realm countries would you rake over the coals? Where would you insert the Dragonborn and Tieflings? I am really up in the air on these, but they are low priority for me since I am planning on starting the game in Waterdeep, Baldurs Gate, Cormyr, or the Moonsea area. So if you have any suggestions I hope they ain't getting dropped in one of these areas
.7) I really don't mind the Anauroch being gone, it never really made much sense for a desert to be there so the resurgence of Netheril could be fun and interesting, but I don't like the elimination of the Zhentarim or the subservience of Sembia. How would you handle the Zhentarim and The Netherese Empire? Sembia I like just the way it has always been, very greedy and playing everyone.
8) The horde of Manshoon clones and what to do with them. I find Orbakh a little too Buffy the Vampire Slayer for me (love Buffy, but don't want Spike in my D&D). How would some of you handle it? Oh and having Manshoon step on Fzoul is not a problem so if you have any suggestions that take care of this and the Zhent problem please post away.
9) Fzoul and what to do with him. Bane seems awful forgiving these days
I thought failure was punished most harshly. So any suggestions leading to Fzoul being offed or preferably some more interesting fates.There will be more to add to this, and I know I have missed many details, but I think I hit the majority of my issues. Any additional stuff you can come up with for an FR of the future (or rather officially the past, of a future which will never be used by me) please post it.
Thanks for any assistance you might want to give.
I cannot think of a place right now so I came up with that corny answer. ;)
1) FRCG "current" year is 1479DR. In the year 1385DR: +Spellplague, -Mystra. Your twenty year mark would thus be 1405DR.
3) I almost want to say
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Eilistraee
1) FRCG "current" year is 1479DR. In the year 1385DR: +Spellplague, -Mystra. Your twenty year mark would thus be 1405DR.
I was looking for the pre 4e current year. Thanks. So I would go off of the 1379DR fast forward probably to 1397DR since I want to give some room to potentially build up a millennial fever scenario in Faerun. We will see I might not even fast forward it that far. I need to make the changes flow so I may just adjust as I go. Where could I find a timeline covering 1374 to 1379 since I don't have any books with that portion of the timeline?
3) I almost want to sayShowEilistraee
1) The 100 year jump in my opinion was a good idea and while it got rid of "baggage" it also made all of the good stuff in the "baggage" pretty useless. So I intend to set the game in 1395 or so. This should give a long enough period of time to throw the "baggage" over the side without it taking out the good stuff. So Q1 is when exactly did the 3.xFR stop timeline wise? I want to set it basically twenty years after that so if my 1395 guesstimate is wrong let me know.
As had been said before, a twenty year jump would be about 1405. What makes the 100 year jump absolutely necessary is the Spellplague. It burned hot for more than a few years, and afterwards the world needed a bunch of decades to sort itself out. If you are dumping the spellplague, twenty years is reasonable.
2) The Spellplague itself ranks up there with the Time of Troubles in my book for the Cheese of the Century Award. I don't like the reason it occurred, the duration, or the lasting effects. There is nothing wrong with a quick and dirty cataclysmic event. I did not need it to continue being an issue for a hundred years. So in my campaign I am still having Mystra dead (because I think the "Chosen" need a shake up, not a complete removal. I never really liked the concept of the weave, shadow weave, or a Goddess having all encompassing power over magic it did not work with 3e for me and definitely does not with 4e and power sources. Definitely a hold over from a less cooperative time in gaming.) , but not murdered. Instead of Cyric offing her she chooses to sacrifice herself to take out the shadow weave. This does set off many of the other changes in FR4E. It does not cause monstrous changes to the geography of the FR (thusly I can easily use my interactive atlas
The main things the spellplague accomplished from a setting perspective is is introducing Dragonborn, giving a new continent to explore(a more interesting one than Maztica), and most importantly applying 4E cosmology(Elemental Chaos, Feywild, Shadowfell). The 4E planar paradigm is pure win as far as I'm concerned, and if you feel the same way, it needs some type of impetus to achieve. If you are a fan of some of the "lost" Realms, like Unther, you can shuffle a few things around. Maybe Dragonborn only come from Returned Abeir. Spellscarred has a fun, Cthulhu feel, which I would personally keep(and transfer to any other setting I run as well).
Also, combined with the loss of the Weave, the Spellplague has given magic a darker, more dangerous, and to the common people more terrifying aspect. A far more interesting tone than "magic is everyday".
3) I like the winnowing of the Gods (I don't like directly intervening Gods, I prefer the work behind the scenes and use my pawns errrr... loyal worshiper type of God.), in the sense of some gods being worshiped under different guises yet being the same God. I don't think blowing them up and having AO sort it out was really the right way to go. I will get back to this when I have time to really work on it (low priority task for me). Which gods were removed that should not have? Why? (Please I want real answers, just liking a God is not good enough for me here. How is this God fulfilling a real job in the setting from a design not flavor viewpoint?)
I'm not as familiar or attached to the gods so I'll pass on commenting here. I will however second the dislike of directly intervening gods. One of my main turnoffs of previous Realms is gods being treated like NPCs and the whole soap opera that resulted from that.
4) The new cosmology is one of the greatest improvements of the setting with the introduction of the feywild and shadowfell (and no Shar did not do a damn thing to make it, tired of that old record). I realize there are suggestions for introducing both and where and how. Where else would you place new intrusions by both that would be appropriate to older lore? One thing I am very interested in the potential of real friction between the True Eladrin and their devolved cousins the Sun and Moon Elves ;). I am tempted to make the Sun and Moon Elves use the Eladrin bonuses, but get the Elf encounter ability. What do you think?
That would be an interesting change, having Eladrin from the Feywild fit the true Eladrin profile. Its kind of a powergamey thing, since the Elf Encounter ability is considered the best in the game. I've done some minor tinkering(I have a major NPC who looks like a Moon Elf, but uses 4E PHB Elf as her race--Her father was a Moon Elf, her mother was a Wood Elf, and she looks like her father's side while personality wise follows her mother's).
As for the cosmology, as I said before they used the Spellplague to explain this in the existing books. Shattering the Shadow Weave by itself could deliver the Shadowfell as it exists for 4E. Maybe the the loss of the Weave did the same for Faerie/Feywild. Not sure the best way to handle the Elemental Chaos.
5) The Chosen do need to be winnowed, just because their goddess does move on. Which ones should sacrifice themselves to give Mystra the extra juice she needed to bring about the change? Which ones survive and what are they doing now? Have any become a Chosen of another God? A crazy Elminster or a hermit more in keeping with the Old Sage vis Mystra's Boomstick (of course you could argue the Simbul was the Boomstick)?
I am in no way knowledgeable enought to make this call. What I would say is that the Chosen really have no bearing on most D&D campaigns, and are best ignored in any circumstances, with only Elminster left as a destination for advice that doesn't leave his domain.
6) What old realm countries would you rake over the coals? Where would you insert the Dragonborn and Tieflings? I am really up in the air on these, but they are low priority for me since I am planning on starting the game in Waterdeep, Baldurs Gate, Cormyr, or the Moonsea area. So if you have any suggestions I hope they ain't getting dropped in one of these areas
As per the 4E FR books, Tieflings are described as having been there already. I'm new to FR for 4E, so I don't have any regions I like and dislike with the exception of having a soft spot for the Moonsea area.
7) I really don't mind the Anauroch being gone, it never really made much sense for a desert to be there so the resurgence of Netheril could be fun and interesting, but I don't like the elimination of the Zhentarim or the subservience of Sembia. How would you handle the Zhentarim and The Netherese Empire? Sembia I like just the way it has always been, very greedy and playing everyone.
The Zhentarim haven't really been eliminated, just knocked down a peg so that they are more of a heroic/paragon threat than an epic threat. They belong in the lower tiers. As for Netheril, Sembia, and the Zhentarim, its a matter of politics. The current setup has the Netheril supreme, scaring the bejesus out of all of its neighbors while being the sole main enemy. The Zhents aren't really a national power, and Sembia is a Netherese puppet state. Having an independant, solid, and agressive Zhentarim or Sembia really puts Cormyr, Myth Drannor, and the Dalelands in an untenable position given how powerful Netheril is. If that isn't to your taste, you can surely shake things up, but it does effect the region as a whole. The simplest answer would be to make Netheril less of a threat.
8) The horde of Manshoon clones and what to do with them. I find Orbakh a little too Buffy the Vampire Slayer for me (love Buffy, but don't want Spike in my D&D). How would some of you handle it? Oh and having Manshoon step on Fzoul is not a problem so if you have any suggestions that take care of this and the Zhent problem please post away.
My main issue with the Zhents is that they should be a heroic/paragon tier adversary, not an epic one. In my game, Manshoon is level 19. Just have the Manshoon wars result in only one standing, one that isn't Orbakh. Its still Manshoon. If you are only advancing the timeline 20 years, a human Manshoon is no big deal. He's a vampire because he survived the 100 year time jump.
9) Fzoul and what to do with him. Bane seems awful forgiving these days
The best explanation would be that Bane just didn't have anybody else IMO. What happened wasn't as much a failure as it was a disaster. Zhentil Keep was wiped out. This was a bit more than a common failure, and it wasn't really anything that could have been otherwise. Maybe disasters are punished differently than failures.
There will be more to add to this, and I know I have missed many details, but I think I hit the majority of my issues. Any additional stuff you can come up with for an FR of the future (or rather officially the past, of a future which will never be used by me) please post it.
Thanks for any assistance you might want to give.
As had been said before, a twenty year jump would be about 1405. What makes the 100 year jump absolutely necessary is the Spellplague. It burned hot for more than a few years, and afterwards the world needed a bunch of decades to sort itself out. If you are dumping the spellplague, twenty years is reasonable.
I may very well be dumping the spellplague in its current incarnation. If I want an apocalyptic event I want it quick and dirty, I don't need years of flare ups, a nuclear winter, or anything else of the sort. Give me tsunamis, earthquakes, and some volcanoes. They can do the job overnight.
The main things the spellplague accomplished from a setting perspective is is introducing Dragonborn, giving a new continent to explore(a more interesting one than Maztica), and most importantly applying 4E cosmology(Elemental Chaos, Feywild, Shadowfell). The 4E planar paradigm is pure win as far as I'm concerned, and if you feel the same way, it needs some type of impetus to achieve. If you are a fan of some of the "lost" Realms, like Unther, you can shuffle a few things around. Maybe Dragonborn only come from Returned Abeir. Spellscarred has a fun, Cthulhu feel, which I would personally keep(and transfer to any other setting I run as well).
I know what it brings I just see it in the FRCG as sort of an over acted death scene in a movie. It is really cheez-e. Spellscarred is fine, but I don't need a hundred years of plague to get it. Of course when I tune into FR I am looking for traditional high fantasy, not Call of Cthulhu. (I love Cthulhu, but its hard to lose limbs in D&D not to mention having players remain sane after more than three sessions is a no no.
) Also, combined with the loss of the Weave, the Spellplague has given magic a darker, more dangerous, and to the common people more terrifying aspect. A far more interesting tone than "magic is everyday".
The dark part is not so necessary in high fantasy. I get enough of "magic at a price" in my Mage the Awakening games.
I'm not as familiar or attached to the gods so I'll pass on commenting here. I will however second the dislike of directly intervening gods. One of my main turnoffs of previous Realms is gods being treated like NPCs and the whole soap opera that resulted from that.
Agreed the soap opera was a big turn off. More about their churches, no direct chit chats with their clerics. It leaves things open to interpretation, and creates much better plots than "my God told me...".
That would be an interesting change, having Eladrin from the Feywild fit the true Eladrin profile. Its kind of a powergamey thing, since the Elf Encounter ability is considered the best in the game. I've done some minor tinkering(I have a major NPC who looks like a Moon Elf, but uses 4E PHB Elf as her race--Her father was a Moon Elf, her mother was a Wood Elf, and she looks like her father's side while personality wise follows her mother's).
Still tossing it around, don't want to unbalance it but at the same time it does not make sense for Moon and Sun Elves to suddenly be able to teleport whereas they were never able to before.
As for the cosmology, as I said before they used the Spellplague to explain this in the existing books. Shattering the Shadow Weave by itself could deliver the Shadowfell as it exists for 4E. Maybe the the loss of the Weave did the same for Faerie/Feywild. Not sure the best way to handle the Elemental Chaos.
I realize they use the Spellplague to explain this shift, I just think there is a faster way. Mystra and the weave were always something I did not like, just like I never liked anything that could potentially nullify a characters inherent abilities. I view the weaves as a power grab gone bad, where the races of faerun paid the price for the greed of the gods. The shadow weave more a result of a long cold war. So dropping one neutralizes the other, and the two together artificially twisted Toril in respect to the true cosmology of the universe, whiich once the weaves were gone snapped back into place.
At least that is what I am leaning towards.
What I would say is that the Chosen really have no bearing on most D&D campaigns, and are best ignored in any circumstances, with only Elminster left as a destination for advice that doesn't leave his domain.
Generally agreed. My players enjoy becoming politically active at high levels, and inevitably they eventually have to deal with local centers of power. If they happen to be doing so in one of the Chosen's backyard I need to be ready to handle said event.
As per the 4E FR books, Tieflings are described as having been there already. I'm new to FR for 4E, so I don't have any regions I like and dislike with the exception of having a soft spot for the Moonsea area.
Moonsea and Moonshaes for me.
The Zhentarim haven't really been eliminated, just knocked down a peg so that they are more of a heroic/paragon threat than an epic threat. They belong in the lower tiers. As for Netheril, Sembia, and the Zhentarim, its a matter of politics. The current setup has the Netheril supreme, scaring the bejesus out of all of its neighbors while being the sole main enemy. The Zhents aren't really a national power, and Sembia is a Netherese puppet state. Having an independant, solid, and agressive Zhentarim or Sembia really puts Cormyr, Myth Drannor, and the Dalelands in an untenable position given how powerful Netheril is. If that isn't to your taste, you can surely shake things up, but it does effect the region as a whole. The simplest answer would be to make Netheril less of a threat.
I see it completely differently. An aggressive Zhent or Sembian presence will most likely be aggressive elsewhere. They don't want to mess with the states keeping the attention of Netheril, after all then Netheril could turn it's attention to them, far better to profit from the whole mess.
My main issue with the Zhents is that they should be a heroic/paragon tier adversary, not an epic one. In my game, Manshoon is level 19. Just have the Manshoon wars result in only one standing, one that isn't Orbakh. Its still Manshoon. If you are only advancing the timeline 20 years, a human Manshoon is no big deal. He's a vampire because he survived the 100 year time jump.
This is all a matter of preference. I prefer having governments and organizations be epic threats, not some sort of singular supernatural threat. Needless to say I think Szaas Tam needs to be fed to the purifying flame.
The best explanation would be that Bane just didn't have anybody else IMO. What happened wasn't as much a failure as it was a disaster. Zhentil Keep was wiped out. This was a bit more than a common failure, and it wasn't really anything that could have been otherwise. Maybe disasters are punished differently than failures.
Mass disaster yes. Of course I have been considering moving gods into a much more quiet role, whihc is wha tmy general preference is.
Thanks for the input.
I am going to lay out a general wide brushstroke of what I am going to change:
1) The 100 year jump in my opinion was a good idea and while it got rid of "baggage" it also made all of the good stuff in the "baggage" pretty useless. So I intend to set the game in 1395 or so. This should give a long enough period of time to throw the "baggage" over the side without it taking out the good stuff. So Q1 is when exactly did the 3.xFR stop timeline wise? I want to set it basically twenty years after that so if my 1395 guesstimate is wrong let me know.
That sounds about right.
2)
Would you keep the plaguelands, and spellscarred? Why?
No, I wouldn't keep them, but if you want spellscarred in your Realms perhaps you should keep them.
I don't like the plaguelands because I thought the lands they replaced were a lot more interesting before (and usually, not even that detailed).
3) Which gods were removed that should not have? Why?
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Eilistraee. There are still drow in the Realms, and some people who play them will like the idea of a redemption goddess for drow.
I understand why Alustriel gets offed. The North was becoming too static and removing her opens things up a bit, however she was one of my favorites.
I don't agree, only because the leader of the Silver Marches is only supposed to rule for 7 years as per the Silver Marches sourcebook. She would not have been in charge forever.
No, I wouldn't keep them, but if you want spellscarred in your Realms perhaps you should keep them.I don't like the plaguelands because I thought the lands they replaced were a lot more interesting before (and usually, not even that detailed).
I am definitely yanking the plaguelands mostly for the same reasons you state. Spellscarred I might keep with a different name, and a different cause. It's is an interesting addition, but its cause is too reminiscent of wild magic for me. It evokes images of ToT for me, something I prefer to avoid.
Eilistraee. There are still drow in the Realms, and some people who play them will like the idea of a redemption goddess for drow.
Seems to be a popular goddess in these parts
.So, keep it that way. I like the Shades as being one enemy out of many, not a group so successful that they are able to put together another empire. I don't care for the Shades being Sharran religious fanatics, either (although I can understand how some would be, I think the religious stuff gets played up too much for the heirs of an empire that was never known for kowtowing to the gods).
I don't mind them trying to rebuild their empire, I have issues with the auto win nature of it. The Anauroch is probably going to get gone in my game replaced with terrain similar to that depicted in the FRCG, however I think the Shades are going to have much greater issues with the tribes living in the land. The Sharran religious fanatic angle is also a no go in my book.
Have him be tortured by devils in the Nine Hells.:P
We all know how well that works :D
Thanks for the input.
I don't agree, only because the leader of the Silver Marches is only supposed to rule for 7 years as per the Silver Marches sourcebook. She would not have been in charge forever.
I did not know. Thanks for the info.
I did not know. Thanks for the info.
You're welcome.
Seems to be a popular goddess in these parts
She is.
Thanks for the input.
You're welcome.
ShowWhen did Eiliastree die? I noticed that she wasnt in the edition 4 FRCG but I figured that that was because of a lack of space in the book orsomething, like a lot of other things that were not included.