Edit: Yet it appears in the creation section they are referred to collective as Elves. Sigh... Hopefully the Players Guide with straighten this out.
First thing I noticed/looked at. At least in this book they refer to Moon/Sun/Star Elves as Eladrin and Wood/Wild Elves as Elves. Overall the two seem to be referred to as Fey.
First: Really?
Second: I hate you. My order has been in Chicago since the 14th, but I still have yet to receive it.
First: Really?
Second: I hate you. My order has been in Chicago since the 14th, but I still have yet to receive it.
Doh!!!!!
They are both referred to as Fey because they all originated from the Feywild.
Yep, realized that.
Second thing, Silverymoon is listed as an Elven City of Renown
-It didn't used to be primarily Elven, but I guess it is now. Can I include that in the list of changes to the setting?
I also thought it sad that the Spirit Soaring is an abandoned and haunted place. Unfortunately, Cadderly and his family nor the dwarves were mentioned.
-The Spirit Soaring was likely the "greatest cathedral in the world" that Drizzt was talking about that he saw destroyed.
Something I did not see mentioned in the book that I had hoped would be was the floating enclave from Netheril saved by Selune.
-That would be the Opus Enclave, also known as Selunarra. Last time it was mentioned, it was in Selûne's Divine Realm, the Gates of the Moon. Since nothing was said, it's presumably still there.
-I, personally, hate this enclave, and would find it a super cliche. It'd be worse if the enclave came back to oppose the Shade enclave.
-It didn't used to be primarily Elven, but I guess it is now. Can I include that in the list of changes to the setting?
Probably. Though the entry lists it as mentioned above and it lists the population as 40,000, there is no racial breakdown as in editions past and the descriptive text doesn't mention any race at all. The only other mention of race that I can find for Silverymoon is that Methrammar has reached an advanced age and that his wife, the elf Gaerradh is being put forth as a possible successor.
Probably. Though the entry lists it as mentioned above and it lists the population as 40,000, there is no racial breakdown as in editions past and the descriptive text doesn't mention any race at all. The only other mention of race that I can find for Silverymoon is that Methrammar has reached an advanced age and that his wife, the elf Gaerradh is being put forth as a possible successor.
Nothing personal, but I'm making you my whipping boy.
Here I am, totally expecting to be perusing the pages of the new FRCG and here you are spoiling it!!!!
Damn you!!! Damn you to Behebuz!!
I hate to sound like a broken record, but they've gone and made the game more like WoW again.
you're right.....you're right......you're right........you're right......
you're right.....you're right......you're right........you're right......
I just thought I'd let you know that you are repeating yourself.
...for some odd reason.
Ok, I checked, nope, just tried to use Myth Drannor as a model.
I can almost deal with them not talking about why Gnomes are now fey, but I really can't abide with them "speaking in an accent reminiscent of Swedish."
Maybe Gnomes are the unacknowledged offspring of Dwarves and Elves... :D
Maybe Gnomes are the unacknowledged offspring of Dwarves and Elves... :D
Thank you for that visual. That is just wrong on so many levels.
How is the book? I don't run the setting, but in your opinion are the classes/options enough to warrant a purchase on their own?
no
How is the book? I don't run the setting, but in your opinion are the classes/options enough to warrant a purchase on their own?
Player's guide will have those, next month.
The classes are going to be in the next book. This book was dedicated to covering some points of the new setting and the changes that occurred over the 100 year leap.
The main problems you will see discussed are between the older fans and newer users of the setting. Many of the old fans are disturbed by the lack of explanation and the holes in the material (not to mention excessive changes). Many new users find the less lore-bogged setting more accomodating.
From my perspective (old school), the book is nice and does have its uses even if you plan to stick with 3.5 or if you plan to use 4E.
When it comes to books, my best advice is to sit down and peruse it before buying. If you like it, that is all that matters.
One of the reviews I read mentioned a distinct lack of information on the transitional 100-year period. Have you who bought the book or read it found this to be so?
Yes, it is intentional.
The designers stated this as a decision to allow for the break in continuity that allows all changes that take place to usher in 4th Ed to happen.
One of the reviews I read mentioned a distinct lack of information on the transitional 100-year period. Have you who bought the book or read it found this to be so?
This was intentional on the developers part. They wanted to keep the events of those 100 years vague.
OK, just a little slow on that one.
I can almost deal with them not talking about why Gnomes are now fey, but I really can't abide with them "speaking in an accent reminiscent of Swedish."
-Wait...Does it actually say that in the book somewhere?
Maybe Gnomes are the unacknowledged offspring of Dwarves and Elves... :D
-Dwarven and Elven offspring are Dwelves.
The main problems you will see discussed are between the older fans and newer users of the setting. Many of the old fans are disturbed by the lack of explanation and the holes in the material (not to mention excessive changes). Many new users find the less lore-bogged setting more accomodating.
QUOTE]Yeah, that's what I'd heard. But it would've been nice to have some explanation other than "and it came to pass..." or something. Even the history of the changes first being noticed (like the fact that high level fighters and rogues could more readily do amazing things all by themselves, etc.). Is that there?
Quote both since my comment can apply to either....
We call them "plot holes"...they are used by lazy or incompetant developers or writers to cover things that they just dont feel like going into, or have no reasonable explination for. On the other hand though, they can also be used by good writers to leave themselves "wiggle room" for things that they fully plan on revealing later. Sadly though, by what I have read here, i doubt that is the case here...
"...And it came to pass that at the end of the Great War between Marketing and Development, Lord AO did create a new world and sayeth "It shall be called 4th ed....and all saw profit, and it was good. ~The Golden Book of Waukeen, Verse 14, Canto 42.
"...And it came to pass that at the end of the Great War between Marketing and Development, Lord AO did create a new world and sayeth "It shall be called 4th ed....and all saw profit, and it was good. ~The Golden Book of Waukeen, Verse 14, Canto 42.
Yeah, but I think it'd be the Book of Vergadain, the Exarch who looks after Wealth...
Yeah, that's what I'd heard. But it would've been nice to have some explanation other than "and it came to pass..." or something. Even the history of the changes first being noticed (like the fact that high level fighters and rogues could more readily do amazing things all by themselves, etc.). Is that there?
Sounds like it would be good fodder for a DDI article.
"...And it came to pass that at the end of the Great War between Marketing and Development, Lord AO did create a new world and sayeth "It shall be called 4th ed....and all saw profit, and it was good. ~The Golden Book of Waukeen, Verse 14, Canto 42.
-Aaahhhmennn...
I also like that they've taken a page from Eberron's book and refrained from detailing every last nook and cranny, and giving the reader the answer to every single mystery, and statting out every single NPC. Now there is a sense of mystery and discovery again.
Now if only they would get rid of Drizzt. I think that in my version, he went to a Calimport bath house, slipped on an errant bar of soap, and cracked his skull open on some marble fixture. Sure, someone could have called for a healer before he died, but why bother? Afterall, he's just a Drow. So instead the owners of the bath house, not wanting to involve authorities, simply took the corpse to a local pig farmer, who had a side racket disposing of bodies for a fee. One hundred years later, the People of Faerun have no idea of who he even was, and anyone who mentions the possibility of good aligned Drow are sent to the asylum for their own protection.
I for one am glad of the 100 year continuity jump. The Forgotten Realms have finally received a much needed enema, and now the setting looks like a lot of fun to play in. I was sick and tired of every high-level Realms game devolving into the Chosen of Mystra show.
I also like that they've taken a page from Eberron's book and refrained from detailing every last nook and cranny, and giving the reader the answer to every single mystery, and statting out every single NPC. Now there is a sense of mystery and discovery again.
Now if only they would get rid of Drizzt. I think that in my version, he went to a Calimport bath house, slipped on an errant bar of soap, and cracked his skull open on some marble fixture. Sure, someone could have called for a healer before he died, but why bother? Afterall, he's just a Drow. So instead the owners of the bath house, not wanting to involve authorities, simply took the corpse to a local pig farmer, who had a side racket disposing of bodies for a fee. One hundred years later, the People of Faerun have no idea of who he even was, and anyone who mentions the possibility of good aligned Drow are sent to the asylum for their own protection.
-Most of the things that you cited are commonly cited and factually untrue tropes: Needed an enema, the Chosen of Mystra do everything, there was no mystery...
I wish WotC employees would stop posting in these forums under aliases. ;)
As long as Paizo employees stop doing the same.
-Most of the things that you cited are commonly cited and factually untrue tropes: Needed an enema, the Chosen of Mystra do everything, there was no mystery...
Those "untrue tropes" as you put it, like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder.
-Most of the things that you cited are commonly cited and factually untrue tropes: Needed an enema, the Chosen of Mystra do everything, there was no mystery...
The fact of the matter is that I didn't like the Realms before...now I like the setting a whole lot more.
So from my perspective, the 4th Edition changes are beneficial.
Those "untrue tropes" as you put it, like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder.
-Certain things. Others, however, no. Fact is fact. Trying to pass a fact off as an opinion, the opinion is still based on a fact, which is something absolute, and can be proven/disproved/contested.
So from my perspective, the 4th Edition changes are beneficial.
-Which doesn't change the fact of the matter that the citations you made citing problems have various degrees of untruth to them.
-Certain things. Others, however, no. Fact is fact. Trying to pass a fact off as an opinion, the opinion is still based on a fact, which is something absolute, and can be proven/disproved/contested.
-Which doesn't change the fact of the matter that the citations you made citing problems have various degrees of untruth to them.
A FACT can never be based off assumptions/perceptions with inherently rely on personal preference. If someone says that the 3.x Realms had too much lore attached to it and needed an enema but you feel differently, that does not make it a FACT as the notion of "too much" can not be quantitatively defined. What is too much for one person could be just right for another and not enough for a third. Now if they said, I hated the Realms cause Elminster was lawful evil, then that would be an incorrect FACT.
All the items you referenced (needed an enema, Chosen doing everything, no mystery, etc...) are in no way facts, they are all personal preference/perceptions.
I also thought it sad that the Spirit Soaring is an abandoned and haunted place. Unfortunately, Cadderly and his family nor the dwarves were mentioned.
-This is what BRJ had to say over at candlekeep in the "Gencon Secrets of the Realms Thread"
Originally posted by Brian R. James at candlekeep
[br]The biggest secret of the Realms I learned that day... Kuje pronouces his screen name Coo-gee. [
...and Ghost King is a Cadderly novel.
...and I found out I was approved to write Ecology of the Sharn
...and I still don't have a copy of the FRCG [V]
-Also the "Pirate King" is going to deal with Luskan.
-Bold added to quote.
18DELTA ;)
Now if they said, I hated the Realms cause Elminster was lawful evil, then that would be an incorrect FACT.
-And, saying that the Chosen of Mystra do everything at higher levels, for one, is also factually incorrect.
All the items you referenced (needed an enema, Chosen doing everything, no mystery, etc...) are in no way facts, they are all personal preference/perceptions.
-When they are presented as fact, no.
-Bold added to quote.
-That's interesting. I think that basically makes it definite that the Spirit Soaring is the "greatest cathedral" that Drizzt noted as being destroyed in The Orc King. There wouldn't be another story if there wasn't going to be some kind of change. And, we already know in the FRCG that it's abandoned and haunted.
-And, saying that the Chosen of Mystra do everything at higher levels, for one, is also factually incorrect.
No it isn't because what the word "everything" means to you can easily be different then what it means to another and hence can't be used to make a quantifying statement.
-When they are presented as fact, no.
And if the OP where portraying them as FACTS then he/she would be just as wrong. If they where portraying it as their opinion as to why they didn't like the Realms then it's a valid statement.
No it isn't because what the word "everything" means to you can easily be different then what it means to another and hence can't be used to make a quantifying statement.
-Yes, yes it is. We know that the Chosen of Mystra do not do everything. Thus, this statement is factually incorrect.
And if the OP where portraying them as FACTS then he/she would be just as wrong.
-Which the poster, and many others, do. And, remember, opinions aren't necessarily factually correct, and the incorrect facts in opinions can certainly be addressed. (Dirk, nothing against you, you just happened to do it just now.) It was the opinion of the Pope in 1492 that the world was flat. Ultimately, we know that his opinion was uninformed, as the world is round, not flat.
-It was the opinion of the Pope in 1492 that the world was flat. Ultimately, we know that his opinion was uninformed, as the world is round, not flat
I heard rumours that they killed off the main character.
As long as Paizo employees stop doing the same.
Paizo employess have NEVER been caught speaking an 'untruth'.
WotC employees have been caught doing it 8,367 times...
and thats just since yesterday.
But seriously for a moment, did you know that Paizo is better at squashing any 'hate talk' against WotC then WotC is? Isn't it just bizarre that they would never let their forums stoop to the level these have?
Thats a class act.
No self-respecting forum would allow me to post. :D
And besides, I'm sure other people aside from WotC employees find their products worth purchasing, and I wish them well.
Both of them. :P
I just hope he doesn't ruin The Bible for me...
I heard rumours that they killed off the main character.
-Hey Markus didn't you hear. On the third day he rose from the dead. He is Risen, He is Risen! ;)
18DELTA :D
Both of them. :P
-Wow Barthalas we are the
kids now. We got the books and no one else did! :D 18DELTA ;)
Yeah, that's what I'd heard. But it would've been nice to have some explanation other than "and it came to pass..." or something. Even the history of the changes first being noticed (like the fact that high level fighters and rogues could more readily do amazing things all by themselves, etc.). Is that there?
...I never understood the need to back up such changes with fluff. It has always been my opinion that rules such as this are just a different model of representing the same thing. Fighters are still fighters. They are not doing "more amazing things." The class is just modeled, mechanically, with a more interesting manner to represent the different ways in which a warrior can swing his weapon. However, from an in game fluff perspective, a warrior is still just swinging a sword (just like he did from 1e right up until now).
-Wow Barthalas we are the
18DELTA ;)
No, I think you and Barthalas are both in their employ now.
You've gone over to the 'Dark Side'. :P
I'm so sick of all this back and forth I might just give up on all the RPGing (and drama) finally and just kill crap in WoW.
There's just something so satisfying about swatting anything that doesn't agree with me. :D
Shows you where my head is at... :embarrass
Chuck Norris FTW! :D
The Forgotten Realms have finally received a much needed enema....
-Wow that is a colorfull way of putting it.
Why didn't call it a "Dire Enema" instead. :P 18DELTA :embarrass
-Hey Markus didn't you hear. On the third day he rose from the dead. He is Risen, He is Risen! ;)
18DELTA :D
Wow, did Marvel or R.A. Salvatore write this book? :D
Wow, did Marvel or R.A. Salvatore write this book? :D
-Both! :P
18DELTA ;)
The Forgotten Realms have finally received a much needed enema...
Are you SURE you're not on the design team?
-Wow that is a colorfull way of putting it.
Dire Enemas won't be availble until MM2
Lucky Bastards... I've been needing one for years....
And you like Barrens chat? Well then ofc you need a dire enema.
I like it so far. Its very different, there are some odd design decisions and some things do read like lazy writing, but overall I do like it.
I have my old FR books, so I can use it or not. Overall, I do think I will use it and be happy with it. I do like that they dont go into detail about the 100 year jump. I would rather they leave some mystery in it and let you flesh some things out as you see fit. I dont need every single thing written out for me.
Some people hate any change at all. My wife is one of them. If we have to buy something new in our house to replace an item we have had for a long time, she gets very cranky. So far, Im reading a lot of that around here. There are just some people who wont be happy if they do anything with "their" realms. Thats the glorious thing about role playing games, they can still be your realms. You can use whatever you want or ignore whatever you want.
Long live choice in gaming.
Eberron does not need dire enemas, it is quite stable. FR needed a small one, not a dire one. I don't think it has a colon anymore. They might as well have injected it with bleach.
Maybe the realms had Chron's disease and had some lower intestine removed.
I just hope he doesn't ruin The Bible for me...
I heard rumours that they killed off the main character.
-Nah, I wouldn't do that to you. And, anyway, I don't have the sequel! :P
...I never understood the need to back up such changes with fluff.
-I think I'm reading that correctly.
-D&D is the game system, and that changes from edition to edition. Books and campaign settings are tied to the D&D rules, but they cross editions. You have 1e rules, 2e rules, 3e rules and now 4e rules mixed up in the Forgotten Realms, explaining why certain things are the way they are. When you have rule changes, and the setting has to change because of those rules, it warrants explaining. So, that's why.
And you like Barrens chat? Well then ofc you need a dire enema.
C'mon...
Where else in the world can you listen to every single moron on the planet all talking at once?
Thats entertainment, baby! :D
Edit: Boy did I just leave a BIG opening for the pro-4e crowd.
-Yes, yes it is. We know that the Chosen of Mystra do not do everything. Thus, this statement is factually incorrect.
-Which the poster, and many others, do. And, remember, opinions aren't necessarily factually correct, and the incorrect facts in opinions can certainly be addressed. (Dirk, nothing against you, you just happened to do it just now.) It was the opinion of the Pope in 1492 that the world was flat. Ultimately, we know that his opinion was uninformed, as the world is round, not flat.
With all due respect, if your argument hinges on semantics alone, then you should perhaps rethink your position.
This being an open forum, I am under absolutely no obligation to preface anything I post with "This is only my opinion, but..." or any other such preamble. Most readers will be canny enough to distinguish for them selves which arguments have validity and which are opinion and hyperbole.
That being said, let's look at my arguments.
Fact: There is a greater level of detailed lore and continuity attached to 3.x Forgotten Realms than most other WotC published campaign settings.
Opinion: The amount of established lore in the FR setting was too much for my liking, hence I prefer the new Realms.
Fact: There are a number of good-aligned or protagonistic epic level NPC's in 3.x FR.
Opinion: Too many uber NPC's takes the spotlight away from where it belongs, on the PC's.
Fact: Most Forgotten Realms novels are considered canon, and thus are a part of the continuity.
Opinion: I don't feel like reading through mediocre fantasy novels to get the full story on significant events which shape the campaign world.
Onto my other claim, the Realms having no mystery. Of course there is as much mystery as the DM wants, but if there are some persistent unanswered questions in canonical Realmslore I would be interested to know.
In my recollection, there was the question of what happened to Waukeen after the Time of the Troubles (answered in the "For Duty and Deity" module in 2nd Ed.) and what happened to Elminster during the return of the Netheril (answered in "Elminster in Hell" by Ed Greenwood)
This being an open forum, I am under absolutely no obligation to preface anything I post with "This is only my opinion, but..." or any other such preamble.
-Then you shouldn't be surprised when opinions based on certain facts are challenged, corrected, or whatever other word you want to use. You, again, or anyone else.
-Then you shouldn't be surprised when opinions based on certain facts are challenged, corrected, or whatever other word you want to use. You, again, or anyone else.
I'm not surprised...but you can only challenge my opinions with opinions of your own, and for obvious reasons mine are more valuable to me.
C'mon...
Where else in the world can you listen to every single moron on the planet all talking at once?
Trade Channel. :P
Trade Channel. :P
On my server, Trade Channel chat is just an endless barrage of idiocy, but its probably the best thing ever.
-Then you shouldn't be surprised when opinions based on certain facts are challenged, corrected, or whatever other word you want to use. You, again, or anyone else.
Still, you are using semantics to bludgeon somebody's opinion. Semantics are the tool of a weak argument. If you disagree with somebody, give an opinion.
Eberron does not need dire enemas, it is quite stable. FR needed a small one, not a dire one. I don't think it has a colon anymore. They might as well have injected it with bleach.
And you like Barrens chat? Well then ofc you need a dire enema.
The Realms used to have a colon, but after the spellplague it was replaced with a Tiefling City from Abeir.
-And, saying that the Chosen of Mystra do everything at higher levels, for one, is also factually incorrect.
As an opinion this is perfectly valid.
It's also supported by the fact that WotC, even in the era of 3E, continued to portray the Chosen of Mystra as world savers, rulers of great lands and "be good sticks" opposite Thay, the Zhentarim, renegade mages and worse.
I personally know the Chosen, etc...don't "do" everything necessary to thwart high level (in game terms) threats.
But I also know for a fact they are nigh-unstoppable, gifted with the advantage of Mystra's direct knowledge and wisdom. I know they've culled the numbers of the Malaugrym, pushed magical advancement in Thay ever forward even as they slaughter Red Wizards in droves, meddled in the affairs of the elves, Cormyr and any number of places in between (via the Harpers and other agents) and act like a Sword of Damocles over the heads of all who practice the arcane arts.
So I can clearly appreciate why others might feel the Chosen of Mystra are the only thing that keeps the tides of evil at bay in the Realms, even if I don't agree with the sentiment that fuels such an opinion.
Too funny - the city of Silvermoon in WoW is a Bloodelf city - I hate to sound like a broken record, but they've gone and made the game more like WoW again.
Maybe Ed Greenwood had a time machine, then, considering that Silverymoon has been part of FR since 1e.;)
Second of all, your experiences in the game are no more or less factual than those who say that Elminster saves everyone. Obviously the way a lot of people felt the game was played was that way and again that shows a problem that needs to be solved.
Now do I think the designers did it all right? No. I think the massive genocide of the gods (or whatever they want to call it) was completely unneeded. I don't know how I feel about the whole new continent, but I think I would have felt a little better just leaving Maztica as is. However, what's done is done and I will move on.
For all the pro-new people just post what you like about the new setting and discuss it. For all the pro-old setting people just talk about the old setting. If no one tries to talk about the other side we could probably avoid all of this.
I have to say that I have been a little upset with the ways the anti-4e FR people have been continually saying that all of the problems people have with the old realms are factually untrue. First of all, if there are so many people who feel this way then it doesn't matter if it is true or not, there is obviously a problem that needs to be solved somehow and saying that they're wrong is not helping.
Second of all, your experiences in the game are no more or less factual than those who say that Elminster saves everyone.
The problem I have with this theory is that (no offense) it makes zero sense. Was there some sort of rule in your campaign that Elminster had to save your PCs whenever they were in trouble?
The fact of the matter is that I didn't like the Realms before...now I like the setting a whole lot more.
So from my perspective, the 4th Edition changes are beneficial.
As u say, the fact is that you didn't like the realms, and i supose that the realms producth have been selled this years 'cause the people who liked the realms. There is a lot of fans who don't like the new "forgettable" realms because two issues.
The need of convert to 4Th is also the need of change or clean a lot of the prior and that the "points of light" philosophy have destroyed the "philosophy", tone and mood of the realms.
I've read many times: "the realms are the people who lives in the realms". They have killed many of then, they have killed the realms.
I'm going to kept playing the realms for long time, but the realms that the mpst of realm's fans really likes.
The problem I have with this theory is that (no offense) it makes zero sense. Was there some sort of rule in your campaign that Elminster had to save your PCs whenever they were in trouble?
No there wasn't and I will admit that I think any DM who did so was not doing it right. However, the very fact that it happened on so frequently and the fact that its a very persistent image was a big problem. A problem that could have been solved by wizards putting aside the idea in the book rather than killing them all off.
I think wizards did it very wrong, even though I think I do like the 4e setting. The thing I don't get it people saying one side or another is "factually" wrong.
Maybe Ed Greenwood had a time machine, then, considering that Silverymoon has been part of FR since 1e.;)
I have stated elswhere that Silvermoon and it's towers of the Sun and Moon are blatant rip-offs of FR.
The point I was making is that someone at WotC took a look at Blizzard's (Elven) version, and decided they liked it better then Ed's.
A cheap imation of a copy... thats what the Realms have come to.
On my server, Trade Channel chat is just an endless barrage of idiocy, but its probably the best thing ever.
I used to find, once in awhile, that I would go on for hours, and just before logging off (at about 4AM) I realized I did NOTHING but sit in the auction house and BS with everybody!
I think Trade and Barrens Chat are far more entertaining then TV a lot of the time. :D
Of course, I could live without the endless Enchant Spams...
No there wasn't and I will admit that I think any DM who did so was not doing it right. However, the very fact that it happened on so frequently and the fact that its a very persistent image was a big problem.
Thats a problem with the DM, who will probably have problems no matter where he/she DMs
Thats a problem with the DM, who will probably have problems no matter where he/she DMs
I disagree. Yes a lot of the DMs will still have problems, but there are more reports of this happening in FR than any other campaign setting. Additionally, beyond that, there is the persistent image in the general playerbase's mind of this being how the realms acts. Again, this was poor word of mouth (which can be frustrating, so don't think I don't understand your side) and wizards made the wrong choice, but it is far from factual either way.
I disagree. Yes a lot of the DMs will still have problems, but there are more reports of this happening in FR than any other campaign setting. Additionally, beyond that, there is the persistent image in the general playerbase's mind of this being how the realms acts. Again, this was poor word of mouth (which can be frustrating, so don't think I don't understand your side) and wizards made the wrong choice, but it is far from factual either way.
The perhaps the Realms are not for those players. Thats why Eberron was created was it not. Or is that a failure?
Or perhaps the Core setting is for those Players.
The Realms are for Players and DMs who like being apart of that vast world. There is nothing wrong with either, but both types of settings should be available, shouldn't they?
However -and they have admitted as much - the problem wasn't with the setting itself, but rather with people's perception of the setting. People didn't know that Elminster and the Chosen had more important things to do then save every idiotic adventurer that got themselves into trouble. In fact, Ed Greenwood goes out of his way over and over again to say (in novels and in person) that Elminster doesn't get invloved 99.9% of the time because he is much more concerned with maintaining the status quo.
Why doesn't he just go and destroy the Zhents? Because they are enemy he knows, and knows well. If he just went Nuclear on their arses something else - perhaps something far worse - would rise in their place. In fact, if the Harpers weren't always so busy keeping the Zhentish schemes in check, what would stop them from becoming all-powerful and corrupt?
No, the 'Munchkins' in the setting aren't about good and evil, they are about keeping a level playing field, so that NO SIDE becomes too much more powerful then any other.
Read the GHotR - Mystra was well aware of Sammaster's evil potential, and yet insisted that Elminster train him anyway. Elminster trained the guy who started the Cult of the Dragon! You see, thats the information that most people - people with misconceptions - were missing.
So there was a problem, but rather then re-educating everyone about the setting (which was contrary to what they had done in novels), they decided to wipe the slate clean and address the 'false problem' of PC ineffectualness.
The setting has always been about the PCs, and never about the 'big wigs', but because the WotC team weren't qualified to address the psychological state of the Realms fans/naysayers, they did what they new how to do - write new stuff. They didn't 'cure' the problem - they merely erased it.
Thats the same thing as shooting a cancer patient in the head, and then saying "at least he's not dying of cancer now".
As an opinion this is perfectly valid.
It's also supported by the fact that WotC, even in the era of 3E, continued to portray the Chosen of Mystra as world savers, rulers of great lands and "be good sticks" opposite Thay, the Zhentarim, renegade mages and worse.
I personally know the Chosen, etc...don't "do" everything necessary to thwart high level (in game terms) threats.
But I also know for a fact they are nigh-unstoppable, gifted with the advantage of Mystra's direct knowledge and wisdom. I know they've culled the numbers of the Malaugrym, pushed magical advancement in Thay ever forward even as they slaughter Red Wizards in droves, meddled in the affairs of the elves, Cormyr and any number of places in between (via the Harpers and other agents) and act like a Sword of Damocles over the heads of all who practice the arcane arts.
So I can clearly appreciate why others might feel the Chosen of Mystra are the only thing that keeps the tides of evil at bay in the Realms, even if I don't agree with the sentiment that fuels such an opinion.
Have you read Ed's novel 'Silverfall'? It actually portrays very well the abilities and *limits* of each individual Chosen, as they all partake on the same Quest. Didn't see them blowing up cities or saving the world, actually, although they *did* unravel a dastardly Realmswide plot. Still, none of them could tackle the events by themselves -- no matter how much Silverfire or spells they had at their fingertips.
In fact, there were several instances in which the Chosen overreacted in anger and even "lost control" of their powers. And they were not portrayed as "omniscient" -- just as any "regular" high-level mortal adventurer, they, too, were sometimes surprised by the villains, and made mistakes. This novel also featured some absolutely hilarious villains in heart-warmingly humane light. In my opinion this novel is probably the best possible source on how Ed Greenwood sees the Chosen with their individual abilities, shortcomings, limitations and personalities.
I can honestly say that our 16th level PCs in my group have done all you've listed there, and much, *MUCH* more, in less than two years. In fact, I might even presume that during their "careers", *most* high-level PCs achieve a lot more than all the Chosen put together. So is it really that bad if there are high-level NPCs as a "balancing factor", occasionally staving off high-level threats when your PCs can't or even don't want to?
One more thing: Now that 4E FRCG is out, many defenders of these changes are saying that "you don't need to use everything in the books -- pick what you like, and change the rest, because it's about *your* Realms", which is pretty much what I and others have said about the 3E FR, when someone has claimed that Mystra/Elminster/The Chosen/The Harpers/Etcetera ruin their campaigns by their very existence. Do I now get the right to moan about how these Primordials/Spellplague/Returned Abeir/New Cosmology by their very existence ruin "my" FR? ;) :P
Do I now get the right to moan about how these Primordials/Spellplague/Returned Abeir/New Cosmology by their very existence ruin "my" FR? ;) :P
If you really believe it is then I whole-heartedly agree with you letting that be known. Things can only get changed if the developers know what the general public think it wrong. However, while you're doing it make sure to keep within the CoC and to be generally respectful to those who do enjoy the new setting. That's how I would deal with it at least.