Exarch of Tymora
Sphere: Revitalization
Subsphere: Reinvention
Gender: Male
Alignment: Good
Domain: Gates of the Moon
Priests: Finders
Adjectives: Finderite
Finder Wyvernspur
Finder is the essences of the cycle of life and the transformation of art, an essence you feel when every you create and recreate an art form whether it be a song or a sword form. You seek to reinvent all aspects of your life from the extraordinary of a song performance to the mundane of simply cleaning up your messes.
As a worshipper of Finder Wyvernspur you seek out powers which either are showy or aid in the renewal of all things. Powers with elemental effects of Radiant or Charm to evoke the songs of Finder or the magic of the Finder Stone, or powers known for promoting healing and grow of living things. Choose skills with regard to knowledge or communication. Skills like Arcana, History, Religion, Diplomacy, and Bluff.
Avenger: There are those who are willing to stagnate expression, usually in an attempt at tyranny. There are those who only bring rot and decay to the world around you. You bring a symphony of change by the whistling of your blade before it brings a more solid sound of hitting flesh. By you action the corrupt fall and provide the materials to grow into a new dyanmic world.
Cleric: You more then most other divine classes represent the renewal aspects of Finder as you bring rebirth from death and decay. You seek to heal and protect others from the legacies of Moander, but this is not to say that you don not create new art. It is just your arts are usually the healing arts or the magics of herbalism, rathering then the more common songs and dances of the other worshipers of Finder.
Invoker: You are a rare invoker as you do not speak words of power, you sing words of powers. Ancient words discovered by Finder during his time as adventurer and as god which once song will bring world changing abilities. You bring the thunderous power of the gods with each beat you hit.
Paladin: Sometimes the best way to bring down tyrants is with a sword or mace, sometimes it is as simple as a story or song with makes the tyrants look foolish. You specialize with both, often at the same time. You cut down the world of decay while encouraging the rebirth of a better society with you words and action.
Some quick Finder ideas
I see his clergy over the years forming from Bards, Ardents (using details from Psionic Powers with Ardents having performing backgrounds) and Clerics for leaders (not many Warlords or Shamen in this crew). Rogues, Fey Warlocks and Sorcerers seem to fit with Strikers. Paladins and Fighters would work for Defender with some Swordmages and Battleminds. For Controllers, I can see Wizards, Psions or Invokers with the Invokers linked with the Gates of the Moon deities or Harper Deities. Many of these classes would likely multiclass with the bard (Except the Bard, unless you can make a bard/Bard work).
Most Primal classes don't seem likely, rangers tend to be more about Nature deities then an Artisan one. Avengers don't seem to fit Finder, as well as most of the Warlock Pacts.
Still I would just say theses are the more likely classes. You could be an Infernal Pact Warlock to Finder, but you would be a rare and interesting character.
Lathander has vanished into Amaunator, with most of his sphere being left up in the air with the return to the old sun god's specialties. I can see Finder eying the sphere of Rebirth, maybe working subtly to gain it in the last few decades of the time jump. Just being careful not to be seen as Lathander Reborn and disappear into him.
I can see Finder continuing his plan of building on a firm bedrock, with some alterations needed when the Spellplague hit. A decade or three of strengthening his foundation. I can see the minimizing of the massive ego trip occurring in the last century as more positive deeds of the church occur (unless you want to add setback or negative images. I can see Rauric if he uses the Divine Finder having the god set back or even influenced by ego-manic clerics of the faith).
He would likely be an Exarch and I am not sure if he would get one or two domains. Narrowed it down to four to be discussed.
Change, Creation, Hope and Skill.
WTF?!!!
Been on a cleaning bender do to mother.
Basically asked about 4th Finder and Mr. Baker suggested Finder was an Exarch of Oghma/Tymora, but wasn't sure.
Figure that if Finder was under Oghma he would be a deity of Invention, an expansion of his reinvention nature. If under Tymora he would be deity of Adventurers/Adventures/Reckless fools, especially after the events of Tymora's Luck.
Just a quick basics.
Finder Wyvernspur
Version One:
Exarch of Oghma
Sphere:Invention
Gender: Male
Alignment: Unaligned
Domain: House of Knowledge
Priests: Finders
Adjectives: Finderite
-Finder Wyvernspur has no real association with Gond; It'd make as much sense for Finder Wyvernspur to become subservient to him as it would be to make him subservient to Chauntea. Also, Finder Wyvernspur shouldn't be given 'Invention'. Finder doesn't 'invent' things. He changes things that already exist, a subtlety that 'Invention' doesn't accurately capture.
Version Two:
Exarch of Tymora
Sphere: Adventure
Gender: Male
Alignment: Unaligned
Domain: Gates of the Moon
Priests: Finders
Adjectives: Finderite
-This is a much accurate, I think. Again, though I'd change his area of influence to be more indicative of the artistic change that Finder Wyvernspur represents. While he himself was an adventurer, and one of the only two Clerics devoted to him that we know of, Joel the Rebel Bard, was an adventurer, adventuring was never 'his thing', in terms of something he represented.
-Finder Wyvernspur has no real association with Gond; It'd make as much sense for Finder Wyvernspur to become subservient to him as it would be to make him subservient to Chauntea. Also, Finder Wyvernspur shouldn't be given 'Invention'. Finder doesn't 'invent' things. He changes things that already exist, a subtlety that 'Invention' doesn't accurately capture.
-This is a much accurate, I think. Again, though I'd change his area of influence to be more indicative of the artistic change that Finder Wyvernspur represents. While he himself was an adventurer, and one of the only two Clerics devoted to him that we know of, Joel the Rebel Bard, was an adventurer, adventuring was never 'his thing', in terms of something he represented.
Sphere in 4th tend to be one word, exact areas of domains. God of Saurials, Cycle of Birth/Death/Rebirth and reinvention of art is harder to sum up in one word. There is also the aspect of who it is that Finder is under (Tymora or Oghma; Reinvention of art works better with Oghma and the other two portfolios don't link with a sphere for a Tymora exarch ) as well as drift/History/Changes from the hundred years since the spellplague.
If you can come up with a better match/idea, I welcome it.
Edit: The closes for Tymora is Improvasion both in art and deed (need for Adventurers trying to figure out how to survive any attack with the supplies they have).
- Metamorphosis
- Societal Change*
- Musical/Artistic Experimentation
- Revitalization*
- Cultural Revolution
* I like these one the best.
- Metamorphosis
- Societal Change*
- Musical/Artistic Experimentation
- Revitalization*
- Cultural Revolution
* I like these one the best.
I personally like Metamorphosis since it connects with Transformation of Art and the Life Cycle (Birth/Death/Rebirth does describe the cycle of the Butterfly). It connects to Tymora with the transformation of Adventures over time.
Metamorphosis has similar mean as change and transformation, which can is a more general format for Societal Changes, Revitalization (transformation to a more helpful state), and Cultural Revolution (Transformation of culture).
I am going to leave it up for now to see what other people would comment on it.
Thanks for the help
PS: If Revitalization is his Sphere, would that make him the god of Healing Charges and Second Winds? Makes it a good number two choice for serving under Tymora and her Adventurers.
PSS: Will post this stun here and at Candlekeep. Thanks.
I personally like Metamorphosis since it connects with Transformation of Art and the Life Cycle (Birth/Death/Rebirth does describe the cycle of the Butterfly). It connects to Tymora with the transformation of Adventures over time.
Metamorphosis has similar mean as change and transformation, which can is a more general format for Societal Changes, Revitalization (transformation to a more helpful state), and Cultural Revolution (Transformation of culture)
-All good points. I was iffy about the term because it's very broad. Metamorphosis generally means broad development and change (like with a butterfly, as you brought up). Finder Wyvernspur isn't about broad concepts. He was very much the definition of the "niche deity". Looking at him as a deity concerned with such a very broad topic of issues takes away from what Finder Wyvernspur is, and who he is.
My opinion is to have Finder no longer be a god of anything but just a demi-god that wanders Faerun. He is now immortal so is probably busy doing what he used to love to do, creating music. I see him as less like his kinder godlike self in the latter novels and a bit more arrogant and slefserving like he was prior to godhood. This makes for a more interesting NPCs pcs can deal with and a potential patron for pcs. Perhaps he is making more similculrims(sp?)...
An aspect is how Finder has gone from being the god he was (Saurials, Transformation of Art, The cycle of Birth/Death/Rebirth) to an exarch of Tymora.
Somehow you have to make Finder take control of something which links him with the Patron of Good Luck.
Look at other Exarchs:
Sune (Beauty and Love): Lliira (Joy) and Sharess (Cats... and sex)
Bane (Tyranny): Abbathor (Greed), Fzoul (Service to Evil), Hoar (Revenge),
Hruggek (Ambush), Maglubiyet (Goblins)
Each Exarch seems to contain an aspect which links with the Leader's Sphere (Good Luck in the case of Tymora).
Basically we have to move from point A (3.5 Edition) to Point B (A Tymora linked Exarch).
The question is during a hundred years has Finder remanded a niche deity or has he broadened his outlook. If an Niche deity, this niche must link with the old Finder and the new one which serves under Tymora as well as linking with her Sphere or the connective elements with it. So Good Luck, Adventure, Adventurers, and so forth.
Revitalization does link well with his life cycle elements as well as Tymora's adventurer element, but there is the question of linking it to his art transformation aspect. Saurials seem to be hitting the back burner right now, so it is these two elements which have to be manipulated.
Finder had a lot of unconnected portfolios, yet something would have to link them in 4th so Broad limits would make this easier.
A good story might help to explain these elements.
Sorry for the rambling.
I am just glad BRJs article is opening peoples eyes and getting them onto the road to creativity. Even with Mask being "gone" in the official books that does not mean this will last for long, we just have to wait about 5 years when Kemp gets done his novels. I say don't wait, if you need something that is missing just plop it in the world and get the ball rolling.
My opinion is to have Finder no longer be a god of anything but just a demi-god that wanders Faerun. He is now immortal so is probably busy doing what he used to love to do, creating music. I see him as less like his kinder godlike self in the latter novels and a bit more arrogant and slefserving like he was prior to godhood. This makes for a more interesting NPCs pcs can deal with and a potential patron for pcs. Perhaps he is making more similculrims(sp?)...
Demigods are Exarchs in 4th and they have spheres like all other gods. Even Archdevils have Spheres... mostly their commanding levels but they are still noted as sphere.
Look at other Exarchs:
Sune (Beauty and Love): Lliira (Joy) and Sharess (Cats... and sex)
Bane (Tyranny): Abbathor (Greed), Fzoul (Service to Evil), Hoar (Revenge),
Hruggek (Ambush), Maglubiyet (Goblins)
Each Exarch seems to contain an aspect which links with the Leader's Sphere (Good Luck in the case of Tymora).
Basically we have to move from point A (3.5 Edition) to Point B (A Tymora linked Exarch).
The question is during a hundred years has Finder remanded a niche deity or has he broadened his outlook. If an Niche deity, this niche must link with the old Finder and the new one which serves under Tymora as well as linking with her Sphere or the connective elements with it. So Good Luck, Adventure, Adventurers, and so forth.
-Nothing has to change. Looking at your list, Lliira's 'Joy' sphere doesn't necessarily match with Sune's 'Beauty and Love' sphere. 'Joy' entails so many other things, and is not explicitly linked to 'Beauty and Love'. Hoar's 'Revenge' sphere, Hruggek's 'Ambush' sphere and 'Maglubiyet's 'Goblin' sphere don't necessarily match with Bane's 'Tyranny' sphere. 'Revenge', 'Ambush' and 'Goblin' entail many unrelated things in relation to 'Tyranny'. Finder Wyvernspur was supported by Tymora upon his apotheosis, and she was among his only allies during his 'early days' as a deity. The link is there not in sphere (because, as demonstrated, there doesn't have to be), but in history. If people see how he has a sphere that's slightly different from Tymora and her luck, they should say to themselves, "Gee, why does he 'work for' her?", and then look and see why- and discover Finder Wyvernspur's history, who he is, how and why he has relationship with Tymora, and so on. I'd, personally, want to do the same concerning Hoar and Bane, and see why Hoar is now evil, and is serving Bane, but very little exists on the topic.
Finder 3.5 is Cronus while Finder 4 is Santa Claus.
Many people will say that some of the customs of Santa had roots in the child eating deity titan. However in the centuries between him and Santa, other elements have been added, altered or deleted. Father Christmas, Odin, Old Man Winter, St. Nicholas, The Night before Christmas, and even Coke-cola have transformed this holiday figure.
In the 19th century, Santa was seen as an elf. A short, stout figure which would not be too different from early fantasy dwarves. In the 1950's Coke decided to use Santa to sell pop and decided on a more human image. This altered the common perception of Santa. Early Santa illustrations had Santa in a green coat before he moved to red. Cartoons by a political cartoonist in the 19th centuries help create much Santa lore.
We have the Proto-Finder like that Proto-Santa, we just don't have Santa Finder or the permutations which occurred during the hundred years skip. This is part of bringing him into the 1400's and which be why he might not have been included in the FRCG due to the hardship of aligning everything up to all satisfaction.
-Nothing has to change. Looking at your list, Lliira's 'Joy' sphere doesn't necessarily match with Sune's 'Beauty and Love' sphere. 'Joy' entails so many other things, and is not explicitly linked to 'Beauty and Love'. Hoar's 'Revenge' sphere, Hruggek's 'Ambush' sphere and 'Maglubiyet's 'Goblin' sphere don't necessarily match with Bane's 'Tyranny' sphere. 'Revenge', 'Ambush' and 'Goblin' entail many unrelated things in relation to 'Tyranny'. Finder Wyvernspur was supported by Tymora upon his apotheosis, and she was among his only allies during his 'early days' as a deity. The link is there not in sphere (because, as demonstrated, there doesn't have to be), but in history. If people see how he has a sphere that's slightly different from Tymora and her luck, they should say to themselves, "Gee, why does he 'work for' her?", and then look and see why- and discover Finder Wyvernspur's history, who he is, how and why he has relationship with Tymora, and so on. I'd, personally, want to do the same concerning Hoar and Bane, and see why Hoar is now evil, and is serving Bane, but very little exists on the topic.
Okay, so how would you best sum up Finder's two major portfolios into one sphere word?
Point.
Each Exarch seems to contain an aspect which links with the Leader's Sphere (Good Luck in the case of Tymora).
Though sometimes some exarchs' spheres dont really fit with their leaders:
Chauntea (life) and Sheela (Beauty, also Sune's sphere), Arvoreen (vigilance), Brandobarris (thievery) and Cyrrollalee (friendship). I understand these are all halfling deities and that Chauntea is also Yondalla but their spheres dont really fit with life...
Maybe some exarchs remained with their former patrons without consideration for the link between their spheres...Tymora could have protected Finder from death by accepting him as her exarch. If I remember correctly, the relation between Oghma and Finder was not really good so I doubt the Binder would have made a move to protect his rival...
Okay, so how would you best sum up Finder's two major portfolios into one sphere word?
-Like I already suggested:
- Metamorphosis
- Societal Change
- Musical/Artistic Experimentation
- Revitalization
- Cultural Revolution
-Nowhere in the books does it say that spheres have to be limited to only one word, so limiting yourself to one word is doing yourself a disservice. Limiting all of those deities to only one word was doing all of those deities a disservice, since there's more to so many deities than simply one word. Using two words isn't really world breaking. I'd hope not, anyway.
Though sometimes some exarchs' spheres dont really fit with their leaders:
Chauntea (life) and Sheela (Beauty, also Sune's sphere), Arvoreen (vigilance), Brandobarris (thievery) and Cyrrollalee (friendship). I understand these are all halfling deities and that Chauntea is also Yondalla but their spheres dont really fit with life...
Maybe some exarchs remained with their former patrons without consideration for the link between their spheres...Tymora could have protected Finder from death by accepting him as her exarch. If I remember correctly, the relation between Oghma and Finder was not really good so I doubt the Binder would have made a move to protect his rival...
I believe the Deities and Demigods stated Oghma/Lathander/Milil were amused by Finder's situation, but their worshipers were fearful of loosing their followers to him. Like Helm's and Torm's relationship compared to their clergies. I am not sure what it said in Finder's Bane (been a while since my last reading), but I think Finder didn't know what those gods really thought of him. He did know what their clergies did.
-Like I already suggested:
- Metamorphosis
- Societal Change
- Musical/Artistic Experimentation
- Revitalization
- Cultural Revolution
-Nowhere in the books does it say that spheres have to be limited to only one word, so limiting yourself to one word is doing yourself a disservice. Limiting all of those deities to only one word was doing all of those deities a disservice, since there's more to so many deities than simply one word. Using two words isn't really world breaking. I'd hope not, anyway.
I am going to have to say Revitalization if I am going to sum it up in one word.
Comments:
1) Revitalizing the Art word does speech of innovation which was what Finder was going for with Transformation of Art. Finder started off in a static artistic form for his music, which without innovation or revitalizing was moving to a rotting state.
2) The life cycle comes up with vitalization (Birth), entropy (Death) and revitalization (Rebirth).
3) Revitalization would be the opposite of Moander's Entropic nature of Rot and Rotting Death. Certainly something Finder would be in favour of, and even find some irony in since Moander gave him the divine energy and Finder transformed it into the inverse of his portfolio.
4) Connects to Tymora's adventurer's aspect.
5) Connects to Healing surges, second winds as well as his nickname of "God of Reckless Fools". Who needs second winds and Healing surges more then a reckless fool or one who worship the god of such people.
Might make a good word for the Sphere aspect. Thoughts and opinions? Cause I know that Lord Karsus liked it (see posts above).
Kinda has a lot of the right nuances, if you ask me. You guys already indirectly used it to describe what Finder's all about.@Judge: Yeah, it's happening. He's back...and he's comin' after you!
Hehe. I'd love to poke fun at the Finderite philandering here, but I can't really seeing as I got all gushy over Eldath's triumphant return at the head of an army of man-eating ferns and terrible lake fiends.......errr....I mean, how we found out she was just over at the pool the whole time.
:PThe narrative could be that Finder Wyvernspur boldly reinvigorates art, identity, and society. His small group of followers encourages exploring new ideas in art and music and celebrates transformations such as a child's coming-of-age or the withering of autumn into winter and its rebirth into spring. They also trumpet the resurgence of dwindling cultures such as that of the Saurials. Finder is an exarch who embodies how people, ideas, and even life itself constantly reinvent themselves.
Howzzat?
Edit:
Depending on edition, one may need to watch out for stepping on Lathander's toes. Hehe! If you make Finder "Good" post-Spellplague, he could probably serve under Amaunator if desired. That'd be a big change, but considering Finder's shtick it's not entirely implausible. (I still prefer Tymora, though.) 
Uhhh....what's wrong with "reinvention"?
@Judge: Yeah, it's happening. He's back...and he's comin' after you!
Hehe. I'd love to poke fun at the Finderite philandering here, but I can't really seeing as I got all gushy over Eldath's triumphant return at the head of an army of man-eating ferns and terrible lake fiends.......errr....I mean, how we found out she was just over at the pool the whole time.
It is just hard to connect the word Reinvention with his life cycle elements. Revitalization is another word for Rebirth which connects with his cycle element. Also Rebirth is the literal meaning of the word Renaissance in French which instantly makes you think of art and/or being a polymath.
It is like finding a good word to describe all of the things Finder was and is at once. Still Reinvention is a good word if you can reconnect it to the life/death/rebirth cycle.
*Secrets is another thing that pretty much defines Shar, that is not listed either, but I can see how 'Shadows and' 'Secrets' play into each other.
Finder Wyvernspur
Exarch of Tymora
Sphere: Revitalization
Subsphere: Reinvention
Gender: Male
Alignment: Unaligned
Domain: Gates of the Moon
Priests: Finders
Adjectives: Finderite
Sorta like:
Tymora
Goddess
Sphere: Good Luck
Subsphere: Adventure, Adventurers
Gender: Female
Alignment: Good
Domain: Gates of the Moon
Priests: Luckbringers
Adjectives: Tymoran
Note: No one said you can't add subspheres and the text in the FRCG for the major gods seem to point to the deities having more then one sphere or connecting sphere. Thoughts?
-A good fix.
I figure a subsphere should have a connection to the deity's sphere or it's history. Even if it stretch to link them up.
Like Shar:
Shadows
-->Secrets are hidden in Shadows, Nilhilism is a dark and shadowy emotion/thought/mental state.
Demigods are Exarchs in 4th and they have spheres like all other gods. Even Archdevils have Spheres... mostly their commanding levels but they are still noted as sphere.
I mean an NPC with the Demigod Epic Destiny or something similar to it. He is immortal but does not wish to deal with the godhood BS anymore. His attitude has gravitated back to his original self-centered ways. Personally I thought the rat-b@stard Finder was a more interesting character than Finder-the-God and I would have loved reading a series based strictly on him. He was Jarxle before that dark elf was cool. IMO.
I mean an NPC with the Demigod Epic Destiny or something similar to it. He is immortal but does not wish to deal with the godhood BS anymore. His attitude has gravitated back to his original self-centered ways. Personally I thought the rat-b@stard Finder was a more interesting character than Finder-the-God and I would have loved reading a series based strictly on him. He was Jarxle before that dark elf was cool. IMO.
What I have been doing is working on the base given by his creators, Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb, which includes the personality changes in Finder's Bane and Tymora's Luck.
However to help Rauric get want he wants...
Finder Wyvernspur (The Nasty version)
1) Male Human Cunning Bard lvl 30 with Demigod Epic Destiny
2) Male Human Cunning Bard multiclassed with Wizard as well as the
Demigod Epic Destiny
Does this help you?
It is just hard to connect the word Reinvention with his life cycle elements. Revitalization is another word for Rebirth which connects with his cycle element. Also Rebirth is the literal meaning of the word Renaissance in French which instantly makes you think of art and/or being a polymath.
It is like finding a good word to describe all of the things Finder was and is at once. Still Reinvention is a good word if you can reconnect it to the life/death/rebirth cycle.
Well if one sticks with the single-word sphere descriptions, it IS finding-one-good-word-to-describe-all-of-the-things-Finder-was-and-is-at-once. :D As already posted, the idea is to capture the essence of the deity and the faith, but just like adapting a novel to a film you can't include every detail within a limited space. Darkness, night, secrets, and oblivion could all have been used for Shar, but IMHO "shadow" lies at the edge of all those, is quickly graspable, and also--perhaps more importantly--implies the Selune-Shar duality (i.e., shadows are cast from the light). That whole feel is a snapshot of what Faerunians experience as Shar's church. To be sure, it doesn't do justice as an in-depth explanation, but is it really meant to?
This is a somewhat subjective issue, so it probably boils down to YMMV. Me? I really just don't see Finder as your standard nature deity; he seems more abstract and humanoid-centered. For me it's enough to say that he gets a kick out of nature reflecting his core principle. ("Hey, nature reinvents itself...just like I do!" says the egotistical Finderite. :rofl
The artist's [highlight]metaphorical[/highlight] death and rebirth seems much more significant to Finder than that of the rotting log into the mighty mushroom. ;)Speaking of artists...
-Reinvention, I think that has too many connotations of getting rid of the old, and starting with a clean slate. Look at Madonna, for example. She's reinvented herself a bunch of times, and each "incarnation" of Madonna isn't too much like the other. Revitalization, as I read into it, implies taking the old, tweaking it a little, building off of it, and making it bud once more- much more in tune with Finder's way of doing things, in having things evolve, like artwork. Art rarely casts off all of the former rules, and goes in it's own direction. Different style build off of each other, morphing from something in the past to something new in the present.
Au contraire! Madonna is exactly what Finder Wyvernspur is about!
[INDENT][INDENT]:heehee (Now I know this thread has gone off the deep end!)[/INDENT][/INDENT]
IMHO, I think the first connotation you're getting at is more like "Restart," as in the restart button that erases everything. Reinvention implies a conscious process of redefinition, choosing to let what was die and embracing a changed existence...in whole, in part, it doesn't matter. You express the same principle (e.g., Madonna, Finder's "perfect" song, etc.) in a new way (e.g., Disco Madonna, another bard's version, etc.). Reinvention has a certain implication when applied to art and identity. The second meaning you describe above as Finder's way IS that implication.
As for our other options, "Revitalization" implies putting energy into something to get it going again (e.g., a fling with a 20-y.o. Brazilian model). Yes, generally speaking Finder does this, but it is a result of reinvention...the actual process he embodies. He'd sooner reinvent a song than replant a forest. So revitalization is less precise, IMHO, and also slightly unwieldy on the tongue. The rather broad concepts of "Rebirth" and "Renewal" are squarely tied to Lathander, as opposed to such cycles as applied more specifically to the artist (Finder's shtick). However, in 4e there might be room for renewal to work if one preferred it....
In the spirit of finding common ground, I graciously put forward the following suggestion:
Deity.............Sphere
Finder.............Re-
:P
Au contraire! Madonna is exactly what Finder Wyvernspur is about!
-Nah, I don't think so. Tying that to the stuff you wrote below, I see Finder Wyvernspur working in subtle ways, whereas, with Madonna, her different "phases" were all kind of abrupt (comparatively speaking). Given the hurdles that we know by canon that he had in influencing the status quo and getting others to accept the change of prevailing ideas and concepts in art, I don't envision Finder Wyvernspur as the guy who sends some composer an entire composition in his sleep, that is radically different from the norm of the period. Instead, I see him as influencing things note by note, gradually, being the general force that changes 'periods', instead of creating radicals within other 'periods'.
Example: Amaunator mention timekeeping and rigid order. Shar mentions secret hates, unnatural desires and lust for revenge.
So even if I post Reinvention to the sphere in such a list, the text could mention his Revitalization role or vice versa. Revitalization is a good work for his life cycle aspect since in brackets beside it is (Rot to Rebirth), which is Revitalization in a nutshell.
Some quick Finder ideas
I see his clergy over the years forming from Bards and Clerics for leaders (not many Warlords or Shamen in this crew). Rogues, Fey Warlocks and Sorcerers seem to fit with Strikers. Paladins and Fighters would work for Defender with some Swordmages. For Controllers, I can see Wizards or Invokers with the Invokers linked with the Gates of the Moon deities or Harper Deities. Many of these classes would likely multiclass with the bard (Except the Bard, unless you can make a bard/Bard work).
Most Primal classes don't seem likely, rangers tend to be more about Nature deities then an Artisan one. Avengers don't seem to fit Finder, as well as most of the Warlock Pacts.
Still I would just say theses are the more likely classes. You could be an Infernal Pact Warlock to Finder, but you would be a rare and interesting character.
Lathander has vanished into Amaunator, with most of his sphere being left up in the air with the return to the old sun god's specialties. I can see Finder eying the sphere of Rebirth, maybe working subtly to gain it in the last few decades of the time jump. Just being careful not to be seen as Lathander Reborn and disappear into him.
I can see Finder continuing his plan of building on a firm bedrock, with some alterations needed when the Spellplague hit. A decade or three of strengthening his foundation. I can see the minimizing of the massive ego trip occurring in the last century as more positive deeds of the church occur (unless you want to add setback or negative images. I can see Rauric if he uses the Divine Finder having the god set back or even influenced by ego-manic clerics of the faith).
Thoughts?
So even if I post Reinvention to the sphere in such a list, the text could mention his Revitalization role or vice versa. Revitalization is a good work for his life cycle aspect since in brackets beside it is (Rot to Rebirth), which is Revitalization in a nutshell.
-More importantly, his 'Saurial' portfolio/sphere. It's often lost in the shuffle, but might be his most important portfolio/sphere, because those Saurials are actual people, actual souls, as opposed to his other stuff, which are just esoteric concepts.
Been thinking about this and the fact is.... Due to print size and page restrictions most of the other spheres of the gods have been cut from the FRPG list. With the major deities this was addressed with their smaller flavour text.
Example: Amaunator mention timekeeping and rigid order. Shar mentions secret hates, unnatural desires and lust for revenge.
So even if I post Reinvention to the sphere in such a list, the text could mention his Revitalization role or vice versa. Revitalization is a good work for his life cycle aspect since in brackets beside it is (Rot to Rebirth), which is Revitalization in a nutshell.
This is exactly what I was trying to say too.
(...Well, plus my personal opinion that any nature stuff should go in the text and the single word should emphasize the Arts. :D)Some quick Finder ideas
Sounds like a good track to follow. Yeah, Bard McBard might be a tough one, though. :P
Lathander has vanished into Amaunator, with most of his sphere being left up in the air with the return to the old sun god's specialties. I can see Finder eying the sphere of Rebirth, maybe working subtly to gain it in the last few decades of the time jump. Just being careful not to be seen as Lathander Reborn and disappear into him.
I hadn't thought about the ramifications of Lathander's portfolio switch on general divine power floating around. (:confused
I suppose if you are playing with 4e fluff then yeah, you are right. Rebirth/renewal could be seen as up for grabs, at least the youthful kind Lathander embodied (Morninglord PP aside). Really I guess you could even kick Finder up to god status with that portfolio addition if you wanted. (Lol...I'm sure heads are exploding.)As an exarch, though, doesn't he technically need to be allied with/appointed by a greater god rather than a "god" like Tymora? (:confused
Obviously easy to ignore if so, but isn't that the precedent? If followed, I don't know which greater god I would use. Like you mention, it might be awkward under Amaunator. :D I actually might go against my initial thought and peg Finder as an exarch under Oghma afterall (again emphasizing his Arts aspect). That's if I worked him in IMG.-More importantly, his 'Saurial' portfolio/sphere. It's often lost in the shuffle, but might be his most important portfolio/sphere, because those Saurials are actual people, actual souls, as opposed to his other stuff, which are just esoteric concepts.
Well, let's take a step back here. He's written in some respects as the god of change in art, rot-to-rebirth, and dinosaur people.
:heehee
That just makes me giggle.
I always thought of the saurials as just his followers, but yes, you are right, they are listed.
One of the people suggested that Finder could move to include Dragonborn with his Saurial aspect. This brought up the theory of another from before 4ed FR where they thought the Saurials evolved into the Dragonborn.
As a god of Saurials he really shouldn't be under anyone, considering that the Saurials aren't native to Toril. He just needs to expand his base of worshippers, back on the world they came from.
I'm not sure he would've made for much of an important NPC before his godhood, since he had very few ties to anyone, and would've just been a curiosity if brought into a game. Now he can actually be useful, and as a super-weak god, he's automatically an interesting person to deal with.
to me, that's akin to saying that Humans evolved from Giants, since nothing says specifically that they didn't, and the only links between the two are that they look alike quite a bit.
but giants have Annam, humans?
tough in my homebrew giants evolved from humans, and vice-versa, reversible alchemical process, the ultimate form is titanic, capable of challenging the gods
but giants have Annam, humans?
tough in my homebrew giants evolved from humans, and vice-versa, reversible alchemical process, the ultimate form is titanic, capable of challenging the gods
-Humans don't have a creator deity- that'd just be too controversial for D&D. Though, if I recall correctly, I think there was a 3e book that had something like a Human creator deity.
... At least, that would work with the Forgotten Realms, with all the portals in the past to earth. I wouldn't mind hitting the Realms myself :P
-Humans don't have a creator deity- that'd just be too controversial for D&D. Though, if I recall correctly, I think there was a 3e book that had something like a Human creator deity.
Zarus, in Races of Destiny. Zarus was the lawful evil god of humanity; the book didn't claim that everyone believed that Zarus created humans, although his followers believe it. Races of Destiny also presents a number of alternate myths for how humans came to be.
Of course, that's true for Corellon, Moradin, Garl, Gruumsh, and the others as well: there's no reason those other races couldn't have alternative creation myths that don't include their nominal racial gods. There are doubtless multiple pantheons for each race, on the various worlds. The Forgotten Realms alone has both the Seldarine and the Yuir pantheon for the elves, as well as the drow pantheon, plus elves who choose to worship the gods of other races. There could be communities of elves who worship elemental forces, revere abstract philosophies, or who are entirely agnostic.
In 4th edition, the creator of humanity is left unnamed and quite possibly dead. In an earlier draft of the rules, they had him explicitly murdered by Zehir (in what sounds like could be a reference to the story of Set and Osiris).
There are also numerous real-world pantheons in D&D, and the Sumerian, Norse, Greek, Egyptian, and Aztec pantheons all have explicit creators of humanity. I really don't think D&D designers worry too much about offending people by presenting fictional stories for how their fictional humans came to be, though. I think the only reason the Forgotten Realms doesn't have an explicit creation myth is the one that Zsych suggested: that it's implied that the humans of Toril originally came from Earth, and therefore have the same origin that Earth humans have. Earth is certainly assumed to exist in the Forgotten Realms setting, since Elminster keeps traveling there.
For the most part humans, as a race, are native to Toril. They are considered one of the five creator races and as such, have likely almost always been around. We do know that some humans arrived from other worlds -- such as those who would eventually migrate to Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara -- as Powers & Pantheons and the FRCS note.
Judging from tidbits of info, from Ed, and various FR sources [in particular Races of Faerûn]... they've either evolved naturally, or they were created by the gods in Faerûn's ancient past.
Finder is the essences of the cycle of life and the transformation of art, an essence you feel when every you create and recreate an art form whether it be a song or a sword form. You seek to reinvent all aspects of your life from the extraordinary of a song performance to the mundane of simply cleaning up your messes.
As a worshipper of Finder Wyvernspur you seek out powers which either are showy or aid in the renewal of all things. Powers with elemental effects of Radiant or Thunder to evoke the songs of Finder or the magic of the Finder Stone, or powers known for promoting healing and grow of living things. Choose skills with regard to knowledge or communication. Skills like Arcana, History, Religion, Diplomacy, and Bluff.
Avenger: There are those who are willing to stagnate expression, usually in an attempt at tyranny. There are those who only bring rot and decay to the world around you. You bring a symphony of change by the whistling of your blade before it brings a more solid sound of hitting flesh. By you action the corrupt fall and provide the materials to grow into a new dyanmic world.
Cleric: You more then most other divine classes represent the renewal aspects of Finder as you bring rebirth from death and decay. You seek to heal and protect others from the legacies of Moander, but this is not to say that you don not create new art. It is just your arts are usually the healing arts or the magics of herbalism, rathering then the more common songs and dances of the other worshipers of Finder.
Invoker: You are a rare invoker as you do not speak words of power, you sing words of powers. Ancient words discovered by Finder during his time as adventurer and as god which once song will bring world changing abilities. You bring the thunderous power of the gods with each beat you hit.
Paladin: Sometimes the best way to bring down tyrants is with a sword or mace, sometimes it is as simple as a story or song with makes the tyrants look foolish. You specialize with both, often at the same time. You cut down the world of decay while encouraging the rebirth of a better society with you words and action.
Author's notes: An Attempt at a know your god section like in Divine Power. Hope it seems good enough.
I mean an NPC with the Demigod Epic Destiny or something similar to it. He is immortal but does not wish to deal with the godhood BS anymore. His attitude has gravitated back to his original self-centered ways. Personally I thought the rat-b@stard Finder was a more interesting character than Finder-the-God and I would have loved reading a series based strictly on him. He was Jarxle before that dark elf was cool. IMO.
I totally agree. He was far more interesting as an adventurer.
Seems it would be better sticking him with Tymora rather than Oghma.
a-hole. Never did read Finder's Bane, so I can't give any thoughts on that. I suppose if he hadn't been such a jerk to Alias, I may have found more sympathy for him. But alas, in my own realms, Finder now rests in the Astral, his life snuffed out by Bhaal.
I totally agree. He was far more interesting as an adventurer.
-As a deity (Finder's Bane, Tymora's Luck), he still acted as an adventurer.
In Finder's Bane, Finder nearly lost half his divinity because he wanted to be an adventurer again and feel young/mortal again. Arrogant and selfish when his two clerics were working to increase his divinity, only for their god to screw it up.
Well, now I kinda feel happy that I had Bhaal disembowel him in the Barrens of Doom and Despair.
He gifted the doppelgangers with some humanity, hence the change to their 4e incarnations. Many members of that race consider him their patron deity.
Finder dwells in Dweommerheart, where he is said to be flirting heavily with Leira (who is part of the reason why Mystra didn't die in my FR.)
In Finder's Bane, Finder nearly lost half his divinity because he wanted to be an adventurer again and feel young/mortal again. Arrogant and selfish when his two clerics were working to increase his divinity, only for their god to screw it up.
Well, now I kinda feel happy that I had Bhaal disembowel him in the Barrens of Doom and Despair.
Yes, but with the advice of Il-god-of-mind-flyers-whos-name-i-forgot, managed to let his sole human priest be the one to decide his fate when fighting against a banelich with bane's personality in it. In a kinda moment of Awesome for Finder, he tricked the mind flyer god but giving his a divine thought as payment for passage through it's realm... a catchier version of the Song Does Not End. Which force the god to return it to Finder and pay the Nameless Bard two questions to send it back into the divine bard's mind. Cause it was driving the MF god and his flock nuts.
Change, Creation, Hope and Skill.
Thoughts, opinions on Domains or something else?
27 April 2010
I would tell you about Finder if I could, but there's a bright, shiny recent NDA sdpecifically covering him. Which of course should in itself tell you something (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). Ahem. Nothing to see here, these aren't the driods you are looking for, move along, move along...
So saith Ed. Heh. Letting nothing slip out about the Realms, no sir, since 1979...
So Finder is still connected to the realms in some way. Whether he is a god, exarch, archfey, primal spirit or something else... who knows? But what do you think?
Well, now I kinda feel happy that I had Bhaal disembowel him in the Barrens of Doom and Despair.
What a good idea! Made me smile.
Just think... if Bhaal absorbed the portfolios of "cycles of life, reckless fools, transformation of art, and corruption/decay," his murderous worshippers would be broadened in interesting ways. Innovative and artistic murders, themed serial killers, even clumsy foolish murders would all get an upshift. And with corruption/decay, slowly killing people through rotting diseases and other forms of corruption would pull people into his worship seeking more cruel and slow forms of murder.
The noblewoman who wants to kill her evil husband through a slow and painful rot infection, to pay him back for years of abuse...
The serial killer who considers himself an "artist" in creating particularly gruesome murders that simultaneously make a political statement...
Me approve.
Allies:
Lliira, Mielikki, Milil, Oghma, Selune, Silvanus, Tymora, Akadi, Angharradh, Corellon, Erevan, Fenmarel, Sune, Labelas, Solonar, Chauntea, Red Knight, Shiallias, Valkur, Waukeen, Gond
Most of them were allies and gods of the Harper, which were mentioned as potential allies by Powers and Pantheons. I added Waukeen as she would have some benefits from Finder's new developments. And Gond for invention and development.
Foes:
Lolth/Lloth (Masqurading as Moander), Moander, Sseth, Tiamat, Bane, Asmodeus, Shar, Beshaba, Talona
Sseth and Tiamat were foes because Finder is the God of Saurials. Bane and Asmodeus are foes because Finder could lead to changes which cost them their power structure, plus Bane has some history. Shar and Beshaba could be foes due to Finder's link to Selune and Tymora. The Latter foe could consider foes or these gods could consider Finder Beneath him. Talona was added if she was the god in command of Moander or looking to take his sphere.
Additional:
Name: Moander, Exarch of Silvanus or Talona
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
Gender: No Gender
Sphere: Rot
Domain: Abandoned (Replacements: Towers of Night/Deep Wilds)
I also see him originating in the Abyss, Feywild, Far Realms or a combination of the above.
Quick thoughts about Domains for Finder. He would likely be an Exarch and I am not sure if he would get one or two domains. Narrowed it down to four to be discussed.
Change, Creation, Hope and Skill.
Thoughts, opinions on Domains or something else?
Up to you on how many. Me personally, I'd give exarchs only one domain. For Finder...Skill. Always pursuing new and various ways to improve one's skill, etc. in the arts. Okay, or maybe Change would be the most fitting, but I'd still be tempted to pick Skill instead. Anyway, having said that about domains.....
This is what Ed Greenwood said to me under my profile on another site after asking about Finder's fate:
27 April 2010
I would tell you about Finder if I could, but there's a bright, shiny recent NDA sdpecifically covering him. Which of course should in itself tell you something (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). Ahem. Nothing to see here, these aren't the driods you are looking for, move along, move along...
So saith Ed. Heh. Letting nothing slip out about the Realms, no sir, since 1979...
So Finder is still connected to the realms in some way. Whether he is a god, exarch, archfey, primal spirit or something else... who knows? But what do you think?
(continued) ......unless he's as tenacious as this thread, I'm not sure I'd make Finder a divine exarch at all. I'd probably make him an archfey. Seems like a fairly snug fit. However, I suppose Finder could also function as an ancestral primal spirit......kind of like, say, the spirit of those 2e bards............what were they called?? Meistersingers, I think. The really naturey/druidy bards. And as this kind of ancestral spirit he could still watch over Jurassic P----I mean the Lost Vale.
Well, now I kinda feel happy that I had Bhaal disembowel him in the Barrens of Doom and Despair.
What a good idea! Made me smile.
Just think... if Bhaal absorbed the portfolios of "cycles of life, reckless fools, transformation of art, and corruption/decay," his murderous worshippers would be broadened in interesting ways. Innovative and artistic murders, themed serial killers, even clumsy foolish murders would all get an upshift. And with corruption/decay, slowly killing people through rotting diseases and other forms of corruption would pull people into his worship seeking more cruel and slow forms of murder.
The noblewoman who wants to kill her evil husband through a slow and painful rot infection, to pay him back for years of abuse...
The serial killer who considers himself an "artist" in creating particularly gruesome murders that simultaneously make a political statement...
Me approve.
Here's a question: In Powers and Pantheons it mentions that Finder was heading more to good acts, over the decades/centuries. I have a question on whether if one century is enough for Finder to turn from Unaligned to Good in 4th edition alignments?
Yes, one century is enough...especially considering how much happened in that one century. However, I don't know where I'd personally stand on him being Good or not.