"The information on early firearms in D&D varied from edition to edition of the game and among campaign settings and the level of detail that you ask for is generally just not there. Combine that with the fact a lot of players don't use firearms in their D&D games even if they exist in a setting, and there just hasn't been a lot of time put into rationalizing a comprehensive and consistent system.
IIRC, firearms were first introduced to the Realms in 2E's Forgotten Realms Adventures (as noted above), which had a list of which firearms were available, but a lot of Realmsian time has passed since then, so almost anything is possible. Again, in the Realms, firearms use magic smokepowder instead of gunpower as noted, but otherwise work as firearms in the DMG. Smokepowder was priced out in 3E's Magic of Faerun, but firearms should otherwise be priced as they are in the DMG. As with other 3E weapons, you can have masterwork and magic firearms and ammunition. As for creating distinctions between new types of firearms and old, even variations that were statted in earlier editions of the game, your best bet is to adapt the stats used in other d20 supplements like Ptolus or Iron Kingdoms or Freeport or Polyhedron's Spelljammer mini campaign from a few years back or make up your own. But whatever system you use, make sure its consistent. The same goes for the nomenclature of various firearms. There are clearly some inconsistencies between different rule sets and different editions. You'll have to solve them probably on your own however makes the most sense to you. The same goes for which firearms can be found where and used by whom. The information, other than that already sited by you and others, just isn't there."
I just wanted some ideas from people more familiar with the setting on how to make the changes to the lore I would like to make.
That being said, the smoke-powder thing bothers me a bit.
My idea was to have non-magical firearms arise during the time of the spell plague (in large part due to the lack and distrust of magic during that time). But, if smoke-powder is magical, it should have been effected by the spellplague just like everything else. As to how to make the changes, just introduce gunpowder. Its relatively easily reconciled even with existing lore, if you do something like say that the Weave of previous editions altered the way gunpowder's chemicals interacted... call it an energy field that slightly altered the way that 'standard physics' worked and you're done.
Alternately, you can justify it with smokepowder was simply an different, less efficient forumula for gunpowder that required magic to shoehorn the reactions out of stuff that didn't work as well, and that someone finally figured out a cheaper alternative in the traditional gunpowder formula.
You wouldn't really need to even blame it on the church of Gond, since almost any region that heavily relied on magical support to keep the hordes at bay would have plenty of reason to search for an alternative to the heavy firepower that mages formerly provided for them. Some alchemist could have come up with it, maybe even an apothecary who survived a bit of an accident while mixing up something. Certainly you could have the church of Gond responsible if you liked, but there's plenty of room to justify the addition of gunpowder if you want it there.
remember they did have that portal there, and they could of used it to depart.
Smoke powder is made with magic, but according to its stats in Magic Of Faerun, doesn't appear to actually be magical: no spell is required in its creation, just Craft Wondrous Item. You might suppose that you need the feat to do the cooking, a little dab of magic to cause a chemical reaction, but the finished product is otherwise non-magical and similar to normal gunpowder. The 2nd edition Forgotten Realms Adventures implies that smokepowder is only called magical for the purposes of raising prices and limiting its spread and use in-game.
But you could say that actual gunpowder was invented by this time and replaced smokepowder in all uses, by being more efficient and easier to make.
Gond taught the people of Lantan (humans and gnomes) how to create Smokepowder when he appeared there during the Time Of Troubles. Thereafter, a variety of firearms and cannons were invented on the island, and spread to the Sword Coast, the Nelanther Isles and to gnomish communities in the Western Heartlands. Still quite rare, though. I should think the Lantanese and the church of Gond tried to keep its manufacture a state and church secret.
The Thayans had their own smokepowder cannons though, the Thayan Bombards, which were defensive weapons for their harbours. Perhaps they developed it themselves, or learnt the secret from either the Lantanese or from Kara-Tur.
Kara-Tur had its own smokepowder, used in rockets and 'thundercrackers'. This was independently developed, I suspect in Shou Lung, Tu Lung or Koryo, and they had it for centuries.
Though I'll also point out that smokepowder and firearms were supposedly fairly available in large cities 5+ years after the Time of Troubles, at least according to the Forgotten Realms Adventures book from 2e. 3e doesn't really contradict that view per se, simply mentioning that they are expensive, but fairly available 'throughout Faerun'.
I just went by the PGTF regions that give out free pistols as my measure of their spread and popularity.
Other non magical areas that could prove interesting to explore that have that dark renaissance steampunk style are: industriel devolopement, large structure engineering, medicine and pharmaceutics, antimagical philosophies and angry druids.
Industries, cannons, pistols and science being more prevalent could give the 15th century realms a truely new flavour that I could really learn to like. Do tell me how it goes when you start your campaign.
Thoughts? How does this scenario sound?
What rules are you using for firearms in 4e? I'd like to have firearms common in the Sword Coast myself in the cities that aren't high magic, particularly in Chult (whereas Chult natives will rely heavily on magic). In fact having salt-pepper exist in Chult would help provide a reason for why the Sword Coast cities are eager to get to it. Have a Gunpowder Rush ;)
All right... I think I am on track with how to set up my idea. I am going to play on the idea that Mystra and Gond used to sort of be diametrically opposed. With her death I will add Gond as a major deity.
I don't think they were. In fact, there doesn't seem to have been much interaction between them at all (at least, going by their F&A and F&P entries). But, it's your game. It reminds me the Arcanum CRPG, which had magic versus technology; magic worked against nature, technology worked with it.
(by the way, does anyone know why the destruction of the weave effected divine magic? Wasn't the weave for arcane magic only?).
AFAIK, the Weave was originally all magic, all the different systems of magic were just different ways to access it or different parts of it (except Psionics). (I thought of it as like the quantum physics of the Faeruniverse; it was fairly essential to life on Toril.) Gods and priests would use it as a conduit for their own divine magic. Now, it seems to be the case that the Weave was just the Vancian fire-and-forget magic, though everything else broke too, and the world survived its loss (loosely).
Thoughts? How does this scenario sound?
Sounds alright to me. My gun-slinging cleric of Gond approves. :D
I don't think they were. In fact, there doesn't seem to have been much interaction between them at all (at least, going by their F&A and F&P entries). But, it's your game. It reminds me the Arcanum CRPG, which had magic versus technology; magic worked against nature, technology worked with it.
I read something on the internet (while researching ideas for the setting) that stated that Mystra and Gond were opposed, because she felt that Gond often advocated the use of "technology" or "craft" over magic (when in fact he advocated the use of magic to enhance technology and craft) or some such. In any case, I just think that the concepts of magic and technology are very opposed. There is no need for technology when you have magic. As mystra died, and I am looking for that to be a reason for one of Gond's inventions to make a rise in Faerun culture, I would like to play with the idea that Mystra's death has given an opertunity for Gond's role in Faerun culture to become more important.
AFAIK, the Weave was originally all magic, all the different systems of magic were just different ways to access it or different parts of it (except Psionics). (I thought of it as like the quantum physics of the Faeruniverse; it was fairly essential to life on Toril.) Gods and priests would use it as a conduit for their own divine magic. Now, it seems to be the case that the Weave was just the Vancian fire-and-forget magic, though everything else broke too, and the world survived its loss (loosely).
Cool. Makes sense.
Sounds alright to me. My gun-slinging cleric of Gond approves. :D
Neat. :D
What rules are you using for firearms in 4e?
I am basing them off the rules for a crossbow. Pretty much, take any crossbow, increase the damage die by one size, and make the reload time a move action instead of a swift action, and you have a firearm (pistol or musket). For more advanced firearms, like say firearms that are "rifled" to put a spin on a bullet (effectively increasing its range), I will treat such advancements as low level "magic weapons" (which are not actually enhanced through magic). They will have a level, a +1 bonus to hit and damage, and a weapon property that increases their range (to bow range instead of crossbow range). These weapons will have the same price as magic items of a similar caliber, and will be considered to be rare prototypes of new firearms that have not yet become mass produced for the Faerunian populace. Firearms will also be usable with any Rogue ability which can be used with a crossbow.
I am basing them off the rules for a crossbow. Pretty much, take any crossbow, increase the damage die by one size, and make the reload time a move action instead of a swift action, and you have a firearm (pistol or musket).
Neat. It sounds balanced to me :D What do others think?
I read something on the internet (while researching ideas for the setting) that stated that Mystra and Gond were opposed, because she felt that Gond often advocated the use of "technology" or "craft" over magic (when in fact he advocated the use of magic to enhance technology and craft) or some such. In any case, I just think that the concepts of magic and technology are very opposed. There is no need for technology when you have magic. As mystra died, and I am looking for that to be a reason for one of Gond's inventions to make a rise in Faerun culture, I would like to play with the idea that Mystra's death has given an opertunity for Gond's role in Faerun culture to become more important.
This approach makes a lot of sense. One way to look at Mystra, perhaps, or rather one of the reasons for her existence not known to mortals, is to say that she may have suppressed the rise of gunpowder, electricity, and other technological means toward power... which could eventually challenge the gods themselves. Newer deities might not recognize this, which is another thing to blame Cyric for, and it might even be used as a relatively shocking revelation to PCs (or even some of the younger deities). Only someone like Oghma, Jergal, or Shar might know this. Oghma would keep this knowledge under his toupe, so to speak, as he was an ally of Mystra. Jergal and Shar might have known all along that the rise of technology could quicken the pace toward armageddon.
Without Mystra, the unchecked rise of technology could generate an arms race between various nations and powers... truly frightening in a world that has so many smart evil NPCs and now no longer any powerful NPCs.
Lockwood's 3e FR Gunnes Art
While the idea isn't a bad one, it isn't really canonically accurate, since magic was used in conjuction with technology with limited frequency for some things... of course one could also say that the Spellplague altered that perception, and that while not historically accurate, anti-magic revisionism has made it a commonly held belief among most folks. Could be a useful hook to keep in mind that you might want to use at some point later in the campaign for a bit of a twist.
What specific aspect of my idea are you talking about? (I'm not really sure from your post.)
Mystra and Gond not really getting along, and that technology and magic were viewed as diametric opposites... the 3e FRCG heavily implies that they are viewed as complimentary to one another, not antagonistically.
But, as others are fond of mentioning to me, 4E is loose and open - so you can do anything you want, including massive re-imaginging and retconning of lore. ;) :P
In 3.5e, you're right of course. I just thought this was more 4e directed.
Of course, the bottom bottom line has always been that you can modify the Realms however you want. And I must admit, this is definitely an interesting angle to take.
Military Ranged Weapons
Darringer +2 1d4 2/5 10gp 0lb. Crossbow Load Minor, Off-hand
It has to be reloaded after every shot.
Flintlock Pistol +2 1d6 5/10 20gp. 1lb. Crossbow Load Minor, Off-hand
It has to be reloaded after every shot.
Flintlock Rifle +2 1d8 10/20 30gp. 5lb Crossbow Load Minor, High Crit
Superior Ranged Weapons
Revolver +3 1d6 10/20 30gp. 2lb. Crossbow Load Free, High Crit
Breach Action Rifle +3 1d8 50gp. 5lb. Crossbow Load Free, High Crit
Mystra and Gond not really getting along, and that technology and magic were viewed as diametric opposites... the 3e FRCG heavily implies that they are viewed as complimentary to one another, not antagonistically.
Huh. Neat. Well, I didn't come up with the idea myself. I actually took it form the Forgotten Realms Wiki (which is supposed to be true to the accepted lore). The link where I got the information is here: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Gond .
The specific paragraph I took it from is here:
The church of Mystra opposes Gond, believing he holds technology above magic; in truth, Gond views magic as a tool to further his creativity. Merchants cultivate relationships with Gond's clergy in the hope of profiting from trading in Gondar inventions. Periodically, an invention of the followers of Gond will have an adverse economic effect, resulting in hostility from other faiths.
But, if the website is inaccurate, I am certainly content to change the lore of the setting to make it accurate.
Since canonically we have it that Smokepowder has the identical formula as Gunpowder (described in Watercourse, I believe), and we have canon examples of Smokpowder and 'Black Powder' being used interchangably (in the Empire trilogy), I have deduced that the two are in fact one and the same.
The difference, of course, lies in the 'Enchantment' placed upon the Gunpowder to turn it into Smokepwder. Since we know there is no chemical difference, then it stands to reason the difference is really a magical one - and that reason is that the dweomer placed upon Smokpowder somehow bypasses the Realms 'shield' against advanced technology.
And who better to perform such a Feat then the followers of the Wonderbringer? :D
I also deduced that the Weave generates a strong field that interferes with electronics and certain chemical reactions, and that this is actually part of the original purpose of the weave. The field surrounding Realmspace was designed to inhibit certain 'unwelcome' things, like Interloping deities and technological advances, unless expressly given permission by Ao.
So now we have Mystra - originally just the caretaker of Ao's 'force field' - taking the thing to another level to help establish her as THE goddess of magic in the Realms (by utilizing the Weave's ability to bend universal laws).
This would mean that Gond's spell that enchants Gunpowder in such a way to allow it to bypass the Weave's 'defenses' would probably annoy the hell out of Mystra. This also means that there really is no such thing as 'Smokepowder' - that is just the name of the enchanted form of Black Powder (which fits all we now about it from the canon sources).
This establishes a clear juxtaposition between Gond's followers and those of Mystra.
My next problem is actually a rules problem. Including guns is easy. I already have rules for those. However, the tone of the setting dictates that armor is going out of style. Yes, for balance reasons, many classes require armor. I'm not really sure what to do about that... I mean, I don't want to take away the benefits of armor. Even in the real world, cavalry used armor right up until WW I. Nobles and some higher ranking military commanders used it as well. But, the average character (and thus average hero) does not. I still want to leave armor builds viable (for those who want to be the odd character out), but I need to make builds without any armor more viable. I am not sure what to do. I suppose the simplest solution would be to just say that "leather" armor also includes any heavy or thick clothing (such as heavy military coats)... It still seems to sort of really hand the shaft to classes that would normally get proficiency in heavy armors though. :/
As to armor, its still quite useful, but a lot of that is going to depend on where the fighting is taking place, and against who. It would probably still be pretty useful when fighting that axe weilding orc, but of much less value when facing cannons. Maybe a feat would be appropriate, that gives a bonus to unarmored defenses dependent on the level, or maybe dex score, of the character, or maybe a feat line that did the same thing incrementally. Just call it reflective of changing fighting styles that rely more on mobility and speed than the ability to slug it out and call it done. Keep in mind though, that I have an extremely spotty memory of the 4e rules, so... ;)
Cloth=Cloth
Leather=Heavy Cloth
Hide=Padded Cloth
Chaimail=Brigandine breastplate
Scale=Breastplate
Plate=Heavy Cavalry
Armors are renamed with the following flavor changes:
Cloth=Cloth
Leather=Heavy Cloth
Hide=Padded Cloth
Chaimail=Brigandine breastplate
Scale=Breastplate
Plate=Heavy cavalry plate
Firearms are more prevalent: No class automatically gains the martial ranged weapon proficiency. The fighter and the ranger instead gain the Swift Reload class feature, which allows them to reload a pistol as a free action and a musket as a swift action, and the Military Shooter class feature, which gives them a +1 bonus to hit with all simple ranged proficiency firearms. Rogues also gain proficiency with pistols and turret pistols as well as hand crossbows, and rogues can use firearms for any class power which could normally be used with a crossbow.
Being bloodied hurts: When a character is bloodied the character takes a -1 circumstance penalty to all d20 rolls (except for death saving throws) and defences (including Armor Class).
Healing takes time: You do not regain all your healing surges with an extended rest. Instead you regain a number of healing surges equal to 2 + your Constitution modifier.
Firearms