Look at the "Previews" section on the WotC D&D site. "Expedition to the Demonweb Pits", "Drow of the Underdark", and "Expedition to Waterdeep" all have "Dungeons & Dragons" logos instead of Forgotten Realms logos????????
"Demonweb Pits" and "Undermountian" are OBVIOUSLY Realms based, and although you could argue that "Drow of the Underdark" could be used in any campaign because they all have drow.... we all KNOW where dark-elves/drow got thier popularity from.....!
Geez WotC, I know you're trying to "Eberron Thump" (kinda like Bible Thump, lol) everyone on the head, but do you really have to sell out Forgotten Realms in the process????
NOTE: Before anyone points it out, yes I know "Corymyr" has the Forgotten Realms logo on it, but why not these other 2 or 3? All the Eberonn books have Ebornnn logos on them????
Why is it that all the Ebberon books being published have "Eberron" on them, but only half of the Forgotten Realms books have "Forgotten Realms" on them?
When did that happen?
Look at the "Previews" section on the WotC D&D site. "Expedition to the Demonweb Pits", "Drow of the Underdark", and "Expedition to Waterdeep" all have "Dungeons & Dragons" logos instead of Forgotten Realms logos????????
Expedition to waterdeep?
Perhaps you mean expedition to the Undermountain. Don't look at the preview. The final logo will absolutely bear the Forgotten Realms logo.
"Demonweb Pits" and "Undermountian" are OBVIOUSLY Realms based, and although you could argue that "Drow of the Underdark" could be used in any campaign because they all have drow.... we all KNOW where dark-elves/drow got thier popularity from.....!
Dark elves got their popularity from FR, but they were initially presented in Greyhawk.
So it's correct to say that the "Drow of the Underdark" book could be used in any campaign since they all encompass this specific sub-race.
Also keep in mind that the "Demonweb pits" (Greyhawk adventure) book is D&D generic material. It is not a Forgotten Realms exclusive.
Geez WotC, I know you're trying to "Eberron Thump" (kinda like Bible Thump, lol) everyone on the head, but do you really have to sell out Forgotten Realms in the process????
That is clearly not happening and I'm tired of hearing it at this point.
Eberron's sales are hands down lower than the Forgotten Realms' and to this fact add that the FR are bigger and more detailed up to this point in 3.5; what with the greater number of products, world-size, novels and fanbase.
Look at the Eberron board:the guys there are anxious about the Eberron world selling bad since many shop owners in the U.S refuse to port material for it - and you don't want to know how Eberron sales fare here in Europe.
NOTE: Before anyone points it out, yes I know "Corymyr" has the Forgotten Realms logo on it, but why not these other 2 or 3? All the Eberonn books have Ebornnn logos on them????
I 've proved this impression wrong.
This thread need not continue.
It's time wasting for everyone.
Undermountain, on the otherhand, is clearly Realms based.
So, you know, they are marketing to the biggest possible audience but drawing product ideas from individual worlds (like Greyhawk and the Realms).
Eberrron isn't bad, but it will never be another FR. Ed Greenwood had worked on the campaign for decades before it became official, and many of us were already familiar with it through Ed's articles in Dragon.
The setting wasn't created by some brain-storming contest winner, and I see from another thread that they are already changing 'canon' material. Stormreach was probably the biggest mistake WotC ever made, considering the incredibly popularity of the Baldur's gate/Neverwinter Nights games. The Forgotten Realms Online would have given World of Warcraft a run for it's money, but Stormreach is merely an 'also-ran'.
That being said, there are still many concepts I like from Eberron, and I wouldn't mind seeing some of them migrate over officially if that setting ever dies. :D
Look at the "Previews" section on the WotC D&D site. "Expedition to the Demonweb Pits", "Drow of the Underdark", and "Expedition to Waterdeep" all have "Dungeons & Dragons" logos instead of Forgotten Realms logos????????
Drow of the Underdark (3e), and Expedition to the Demonweb Pits are both actually "Core D&D" sourcebooks, and are not FR specific. Expedition to Undermountain obviously is FR specific, but I have not heard of it not carrying the FR label.
I think FR is slowly going 'core', and probably will be the default setting if there ever is a 4.0. As much as I loved Greyhawk it's dead in the water, and no amount of resussitaion is gonna bring it back. The fact that books that were originally FR like Drow of the Underdark have now gone 'core' further reinforces my beliefs.
-I don't agree. I don't think that the Realms will be the default setting, but I do think that because of the popularity of the Realms, and other settings, the "Default D&D" idea is slowly being phased out. Look at how many Core D&D products have "In the Realms...", or "In Eberron" sidebars.
Stormreach was probably the biggest mistake WotC ever made, considering the incredibly popularity of the Baldur's gate/Neverwinter Nights games. The Forgotten Realms Online would have given World of Warcraft a run for it's money, but Stormreach is merely an 'also-ran'.
-What is Stormreach? Is that that D&D Online RPG?
-What is Stormreach? Is that that D&D Online RPG?
Yes, IIRC Stormreach is the Eberron-based setting for D&D Online.
Yes, IIRC Stormreach is the Eberron-based setting for D&D Online.
-Oh, it was Eberron based? I thought it was Grayhawk/Core Based. Eh, it really makes no difference, I guess.
And yes I know they are trying to make it so that each book can be readily used in any setting (you can pretty much do that with any book if you have half the imagination of artistic people like Dick Chenny), but why not the logo like on Eborron (which is also designed to more or less fit in any campaign setting)???
Unless you're right and maybe just the "Preview" section doesnt have it, but the actual product will......but why would they even bother with the non-logo Preview????
If FR becomes the new default setting for D&D core (which I highly doubt) then I can understand.
And YES, I tottally agree, I was all hyped when I heard D&D was coming out with an online game........then I heard it was Eborron, and sadly walked away from the computer store with WoW instead..... if it would have been Forgtten Realms (or even old core GreyHawk) I would have bought it in a second...... as a matter of fact I was there to reserve it when I found out it was Eborron
HUH?!? Ya, I know drow started somewhere other than the Realms (I even stated that in my original post), but I thought the Demonweb Pits was an idea from Forgotten Realms (aka The Silence of Lloth thing)???
-The Demonweb Pits is Lolth's Realm of the Abyss in every D&D setting, excluding maybe Eberron, which has it's own, strange cosmology.
And yes I know they are trying to make it so that each book can be readily used in any setting (you can pretty much do that with any book if you have half the imagination of artistic people like Dick Chenny), but why not the logo like on Eborron (which is also designed to more or less fit in any campaign setting)???
-I wasn't aware that Dick Cheney was artistic.
-Anyway, again, those particular books don't have the FR Logo because they are not FR specific, with the exception of Expedition to Undermountain.
Unless you're right and maybe just the "Preview" section doesnt have it, but the actual product will......but why would they even bother with the non-logo Preview????
-Depends on when those preview pictures were made. Theoretically, they could have been posted before the final product was finished, thus, the image provided is not the final image.
And YES, I tottally agree, I was all hyped when I heard D&D was coming out with an online game........then I heard it was Eborron, and sadly walked away from the computer store with WoW instead..... if it would have been Forgtten Realms (or even old core GreyHawk) I would have bought it in a second...... as a matter of fact I was there to reserve it when I found out it was Eborron
-Hey, who really cares? As long as it's fun, right? No, I guess not...
Anyhow, I'm sure Stormreach is good, but the only thing WotC could have had a chance with up against a juggernaught like Blizzard (makers of WoW) was an FR-based Online game.
Ah, well....
I found a link showing the ORIGINAL Demonweb pits, notice the crappy nostalgic artwork. :D
And I own every FR novel and 2e/3e book, yet nothing of Eberron, so I'm obv a FR fan.
Somehow she got sexy over the years. I guess that was her time as an Abyssal Lord only... RIGHT ZANAN?
Somehow she got sexy over the years. I guess that was her time as an Abyssal Lord only... RIGHT ZANAN?
-That's how she attracts so many dumb worshippers. They see she's pretty and flock to her, not knowing what they are getting themselves into...
-What would the feminine of 'Lord' be, anyway? Lordess doesn't sound correct...
-I'm watching baseball, so I can't be held accountable for that...
HUH?!? Ya, I know drow started somewhere other than the Realms (I even stated that in my original post), but I thought the Demonweb Pits was an idea from Forgotten Realms (aka The Silence of Lloth thing)???
First mention of the demonweb pits was in the G-D-Q series of modules set in Greyhawk, which culminated in Q1, Queen of the Demonweb Pits, which starts with the players traveling from the Fane of Lolth in Erelhei-Cinlu (in world of Greyhawk) to the Demonweb Pits.
But yes, the Demonweb is now common to all realms/worlds that incorporate Lolth officially - which is Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms. ;)
Eberron's sales are hands down lower than the Forgotten Realms' and to this fact add that the FR are bigger and more detailed up to this point in 3.5; what with the greater number of products, world-size, novels and fanbase.
Where do you get your sales figures, and for what part of which country? I spoke with a gaming book distributor who deals to stores all along the east coast USA, and he says the Eberron gaming books vastly outsell the FR gaming books. The reason, he supposes, is because "it's newer and shinier"...
Look under the previews for April and beyond, the artwork and description for Undermountain clearly show it as a 'dungeon for any setting' and without a FR logo.
Another stab in the back.
I guess they have decided that they need that extra income from players of other settings, and thats its worth slapping it's loyal customers in the face.
Just another nail in the coffin...
-Meh, whatever. Let's let those "Core D&D" people have a mish-mosh of everything. As long as we keep the integrity of the Realms, right?
I rather like that. :D
Where do you get your sales figures, and for what part of which country? I spoke with a gaming book distributor who deals to stores all along the east coast USA, and he says the Eberron gaming books vastly outsell the FR gaming books. The reason, he supposes, is because "it's newer and shinier"...
I 've seen quite a few threads in the Eberron board and on other fantasy related sites and many were complaining about hobby stores in the US not porting material about the Eberron seting. - that's what is happening over to your country.
I myself talked to many Italian distributors and to many pals I have sparsed over Europe and this fact stays the same: the Forgotten Realms' sales are immensely higher than those of the Eberron setting and the reason for that is the Realms are bigger in size, more detailed, more akin to a high fantasy medieval setting, with more interesting stories and characters and a better world geography.
What's more there to be said?
Look under the previews for April and beyond, the artwork and description for Undermountain clearly show it as a 'dungeon for any setting' and without a FR logo.
Look under the voice for the 2007 products line for D&D core:
2007 core D&D products
Exactly.
"Expedition to Undermountain" is nowhere to be found.
Now look at the 2007 Product Releases for the Forgotten Realms:
Forgotten Realms 2007 products.
Correct. The "expedition to the Undermountain'' book is here.
As it should be.
I think that the final product (when it comes out) will definitely bear the REALMS logo.
-How the hess can you make a sourcebook about Undermountain, and not have it FR specific? That's like making the Red Wizard general-use. Never mind...
Exactly.
Another stab in the back.
I guess they have decided that they need that extra income from players of other settings, and thats its worth slapping it's loyal customers in the face.
Just another nail in the coffin...
Markus, you should read more carefully other persons' posts before going on all depressed. :raincloud
;)
The Realms are doing a whole lot better than Eberron in the market, and even if the undermountain book comes out with the generic D&D mark (which I highly doubt) that just goes to show that Undermountain -which is an FR location- is so popular that they want to address it to the whole D&D audience to increase the incomes.
That's just another nail in Eberron's coffin.
The Realms are doing a whole lot better than Eberron in the market, and even if the undermountain book comes out with the generic D&D mark (which I highly doubt) that just goes to show that Undermountain -which is an FR location- is so popular that they want to address it to the whole D&D audience to increase the incomes.
To add:
Amazon.com Sales Ranks
PHB v3.5: #4,564 in Books
FRCS: #19,811 in Books
ECS: #25,177 in Books.
While amazon is probably not the best place to look for gaming stuff, it is still a nice indication to see broad and general trends. I think this is clear enough.
And, of course: The Realms are covered in so many books... Eberron has a lot of uncovered stuff. The slightly higher rate of books for Eberron is based on the greater need for novelty.
Just to clarify, Lolth and the Demonweb Pits made their first appearance almost a decade before Forgotten Realms. All products back then were pretty much Greyhawk, but even that was understated (unless you specifically bought Greyhawk material, you wouldn't even know much about Greyhawk at all. Settings and game lines were not nearly as fixed in those days).
As far as Undermountain ... I don't know much about it, so my impression could be wrong, but I always felt it owed alot to Castle Greyhawk in the sense of the "Huge, endless dungeon that defies logic".
Not only do I love these FR-based "Eberron is ruining D&D" tirades, but it is simply amazing to note the number of ways (on purpose or otherwise) that you can misspell "Eberron" in one thread.
This will make for very humorous reading for the rest of the week, I think.
While amazon is probably not the best place to look for gaming stuff, it is still a nice indication to see broad and general trends. I think this is clear enough.
And, of course: The Realms are covered in so many books... Eberron has a lot of uncovered stuff. The slightly higher rate of books for Eberron is based on the greater need for novelty.
To add:
La posta: [b]Italian online shop:[/b]
PHB 3.5 Edition : 15,374 (english version - imported only)
Forgotten Realms 3.0 campaign : 10,026 (english version - imported only)
Eberron campaign: 1,325 (english version - imported only)
To add more:
E-Bay accustomed shops' total sales figures in Europe up to 12-31-2006 (from a subscribed shopper):
Forgotten Realms campaign setting (english version): 38,000 (rounded up)
Eberron campaign setting (english version): 17,000 (rounded up)
To add even more;
Top ranking fantasy books on Amazon.com:
Drizzt is on the top 100
It's an understatement that online shops' sales stats aren't very accurate, but this is another indication that further enhances my point.
I think it's crystal clear now.
And it's a fact that Eberron won't get as much material as the Forgotten Realms setting received up to now: Eberron has only 4 continents and its very planet is smaller. What's there to left to cover after you're done with Khorvaire, Xend'rik and Sarlonna? Duh...
Also notice how the Realms themselves have a lot of uncovered stuff. In fact, in the 3.5 edition, only Faerun has received material thus far - albeit a huge load of it. Faerun's sourcebooks alone surpass in number even Khorvaire,Xen'rik and Sarlonna stuff assembled.
Happy gaming.
Just leave this thread die.
If we want to discuss about how the two settings relate to each other and which things we like in each one, we can do so on the other thread and on a different tone.
Discussing about logos, sales figures, nails on coffins and other stuff like that is ultimately time wasting and useless.
We're just doing some Eberron's fanboy game here, and most probably the only thing he does is watch behind the scenes without interfering and laughing under his moustache.
Just leave this thread die.
What's there to left to cover after you're done with Khorvaire, Xend'rik and Sarlonna? Duh...
Well, Nicolas Logue is working with Keith on a book that covers Argonnessen & the role of the dragons of the Chamber.
Since FR got their Underdark subterranean adventure books, I assume we'll get our Khyber subterranean adventure books as well.
If we get all region-happy like some folks here, then I suppose relatively undiscussed areas such as The Demon Wastes, Q'Barra or the Lhazaar Principalities will get some treatment.
Dunno why they should since PGtE covers those areas sufficiently enough to serve as a baseline.
We're just doing some Eberron's fanboy game here, and most probably the only thing he does is watch behind the scenes without interfering and laughing under his moustache.
I'm clean shaven. I have no moustache.
Besides, I just interfered as per the above.
If we get all region-happy like some folks here, then I suppose relatively undiscussed areas such as The Demon Wastes, Q'Barra or the Lhazaar Principalities will get some treatment.
As I see it, the need is huge for the Forgotten Realms to finally get campaign expansions for its other lands and regions.
One of the things I like about Eberron's product line is how they went on and pubblished material about its other continents without focusing solely on Khorvaire.
I'm clean shaven. I have no moustache.
Besides, I just interfered as per the above.
I wasn't talking specifically about you.
From time to time threads like this one pop-up for no other reason than to cause buzz since no flies are hovering around. They are annoying and irritating just like flies however.
Can't roleplayers just shut up and enjoy their favourite setting without creating pseudo problems off no basis? Can't roleplayers just inform themselves better before starting a thread?
So my impression is that someone specifically raises such arguments just to cause mischief and then sit back and enjoy. That someone could either be one Eberron troll, one misinformed or just one from another ''site" and place.
As I see it, the need is huge for the Forgotten Realms to finally get campaign expansions for its other lands and regions.
Which regions would those be? The ones originally included in the grey box or the ones that were tacked on like Kara-Tur and Zakhara?
I personally like both Kara-Tur and Zakhara, but I really don't see the outcry for their reinstatement on these boards.
One of the things I like about Eberron's product line is how they went on and pubblished material about its other continents without focusing solely on Khorvaire.
Yep, Keith left some development for DMs to do. Somethings are best left vague.
Can't roleplayers just shut up and enjoy their favourite setting without creating pseudo problems off no basis?
I ask myself that very same question whenever these "Ebbbberon product line is being forced on me! When will more FR books come out?" threads.
Which regions would those be? The ones originally included in the grey box or the ones that were tacked on like Kara-Tur and Zakhara?
You are misinformed.
Those regions were not "tacked" on Abeir-Toril.
They existed since the very beginning.
In the "old grey box", only the northern continent of Faerun and Kara-Tur were discussed and a world map of Abeir-Toril was not included in the package.
This problem was solved in the following Realms products and in a definite way when the second campaign setting in 1992 came out that contained a brief info about the whole planet of Abeir-Toril (the Forgotten Realms world).
I personally like both Kara-Tur and Zakhara, but I really don't see the outcry for their reinstatement on these boards.
Well, there are two threads in this forum regarding their reprisal by fans (and there have been more in the past) in the 3.5 edition and even more numerous sites and polls dedicated to them all over the net.
That fact alone should give a clue to Wotc about their republishing in the 3.5 D&D game. They sure have my money for their value when they 'll come out.
Can't roleplayers stop complaining about how the product line of one setting comes at the expense of another?......
Strangely, this issue never happened back in the 2nd edition days, albeit we had running in the market simultaneously over seven official TSR campaign settings.
I ask myself that very same question whenever these "Ebbbberon product line is being forced on me! When will more FR books come out?" threads.
Are you sure that none of your "pals" over at the Eberron boards drops by "occasionally" here and starts one of them once in a while? ;)
You are misinformed.
Those regions were not "tacked" on Abeir-Toril.
They existed since the very beginning.
The 1985 OA sourcebook that set up Kara-Tur was written by Gary Gygax and David Cook, homeboy. It wasn't originally a part of the FR experience.
If you're saying that the setting has always existed from 1ed, then that is an accurate statement.
I suppose what I mean when I say that Zakhara was "tacked on" is that given the disappointing development of the OA setting as a stand-alone, devs perhaps chose not to gamble with making Zakhara stand alone and just added it to the most reasonable setting available, which naturally was not Athas.
Strangely, this issue never happened back in the 2nd edition days, albeit we had running in the market simultaneously over seven official TSR campaign settings.
Yeah, I also hate the internet.
Are you sure that none of your "pals" over at the Eberron boards drops by "occasionally" here and starts one of them once in a while? ;)
Why would Eberron fans complain about the length of the product line we prefer to play?
I like conspiracy theories, but your scenario is about as magic bullet as it gets.
Besides, Wiz_O's should be able to see our IP's & would automatically know if some Eberron board poster made a sock puppet account & came over here to cause trouble.
The 1985 OA sourcebook that set up Kara-Tur was written by Gary Gygax and David Cook, homeboy. It wasn't originally a part of the FR experience.
Incorrect.
Ed had been writing articles about the Forgotten Realms on the Dragon Magazine long before
1985. It was his intention to incorporate an oriental land east from Faerun called Kara-Tur.
The Oriental adventures just came out 2 years earlier than the old grey box but the intention to incorporate it into the Realms had been there since the very beginning (Gygax knew about the upcoming world).
TMK, Jeff Grubb didn't add Zakhara on to the FR until the Land of Fate boxed set. Most likely this is an incorrect recollection on my part.
You're wrong, kiddo.
Zakhara was part of the Realms as a location since the very beginning too, it was just left undiscussed. Since 1992 however it's always been mentioned in the campaign setting. Also, the official first Arabian adventures book mentioned it clearly: Zakhara is set in the FORGOTTEN REALMS.(page 10, 2nd paragraph).
Make up your mind.
:P
Yeah, I also hate the internet.
So you agree with me that those threads have no basis.
Why would Eberron fans complain about the length of the product line we prefer to play?
No. Some of them once came here and tried to take jabs at the Realms.
I was just joking though.
Besides, Wiz_O's should be able to see our IP's & would automatically know if some Eberron board poster made a sock puppet account & came over here to cause trouble.
You would be surprised, but this has happened in the past. Bear in mind that many posters type from various Internet caffes and thus share the same IP with others.
Neverfun :P
Just joking, I love most of the individual bits, and the world does seem to be better planned out from the beginning. Not that I'm dissing Ed, but he started from a central core of Realms and worked his way out, which left some 'oddities'. I mean, c'mon - THREE deserts and they were ALL created because of an Empire falling and magical backlash? (Raurin=Imaskar, Anuaroch=Netheril, and Calim desert=Calim) The geography seems more natural in Eberron, I'll give it that, and it only has one 'magical wasteland' and that was done with a good deal of coolness (Bedine
).I wasn't such a downer on Eberron material until I saw what little was coming down the pipe for FR. Also, the Sarlona book coming out when FR fan have been begging for a KT update was a wee-bit rude. True, you guys needed a book for it since you don't have old 2e sources to fall back on, but some martial-arts love thrown our way wouldn't hurt.
Also, whoever quoted those Amazon figures made me laugh. REAL gamers do NOT buy game books from Amazon, sorry. I am fortunate to have two LGS nearby (I used to have three), and at neither one is Eberron being played. One is mostly for miniatures gaming, but they do have a core Greyhawk campaign going on. The other store is more about RPG, and has an FR game going on (along with a dozen other RPGs and even a Babylon5 miniatures campaign). According to the owners of BOTH stores, sales of FR products BLOWS AWAY Eberron books.
I guess the only people playing Eberron are those without a nearby store to set the straight. ;)
It was his intention to incorporate an oriental land east from Faerun called Kara-Tur.
That's news to me, so I'm going to have to ask you what your source is.
I've got no problems being incorrect but I'll need a bit more prodding before I buy the "Ed = Creator of All Settings!" scenario.
So you agree with me that those threads have no basis.
Affirmative.
The 1e OA book, which I have been re-reading recently, was VERY well done for it's time and had several notions that were fairly advanced for back then. The whole basis for feat progressions seems to be laid out in a primitive form in the martial arts rules. It has a section in the back describing Kara-Tur, but nowhere do I see it linked to ANY setting. The fact that it wasn't placed in Gary's own setting as the Celestial Empire (way to the west of the Greyhawk lands) 'may' lend some credence to Francius' theory of Ed's help on that project. Maybe Sage can clear this up....
I have also heard that Ed had envisioned an Oriental setting to the East, but beyond just that bare-bones concept I never heard of him going any further. I think that when the 1e OA book came out it was just easier to go with what was in it and run with it, but I could be wrong. It is quite possible that Ed had 'some' input' on that work, although I've never personally read such.
Oh, I'm not doubting that Ed isn't creative enough of a person to dream up an Asian setting. I wish I was a fifth as creative as Ed is.
I'm just not so sure that the Asian setting in question was specifically Kara-Tur, as Gary Gygax and Dave Cook are also pretty creative gentlemen in their own right.
I'm not saying that Francius is wrong: it's just that I've never heard that version of the facts & need some confirmation.
I would rather avoid Ed becoming the Chuck Norris internet meme of the RPG world. (ie. Ed traveled back in time via advanced technology and wrote The Simarillion under a pen name. That Tolkien dude is just some old guy Ed hired at random for sake of appearances.)
It looks to me like they are moving FR towards being the core setting for D+D. I guess this probably won't happen til we see the 4.0 ed Players Handbook in about three years or so, but its awful news.
The biggest mistake ever made in the real world history of the FR was making it core in the 90s (I can't remember) because they had to cram every new race, monster etc... into it. It was awful....
On a positive note: It probably means they will let Paizo start making their own GH stuff.
That's news to me, so I'm going to have to ask you what your source is
An old Dungeon magazine (or Dragon I don't remember correctly) with an interview to ED. The problem is that it was translated in Italian and the issue numbers here are a little different from their original counterparts so you 'll just have to take my word for it.
Just joking, I love most of the individual bits, and the Eberron world does seem to be better planned out from the beginning.
I disagree.
During the years, the Forgotten Realms were better shaped and developped making up for their lack of initial development as a whole planet.
However, I never saw it as a planning problem that initially the old grey box dealt just with Faerun and Kara-Tur and not with the entire planet.
Everything in the Forgotten Realms is now perfectly meshing and coaleshing.
Also, take note of the fact that the Eberron planet is almost 8,000 miles smaller than Abeir-Toril and it came out in a whole different manner compared to the other campaign settings.
The geography seems more natural in Eberron, I'll give it that, and it only has one 'magical wasteland' and that was done with a good deal of coolness (Bedine :yuck ).
No.
Just no.
The geography of the Forgotten Realms is by light years more natural - and more beautiful I might add.
The fact that three deserts exist in Faerun is of no problem to me. The Calim one is small, Anauroch's story is great, I love the Bedine and Raurin lies to the very south-east of Faerun (just like the persian sand seas of our Earth).
I 'm more than happy and satisfied with them, thank you.
By the way, Sarlonna has a huge desert too.
I wasn't such a downer on Eberron material until I saw what little was coming down the pipe for FR. Also, the Sarlona book coming out when FR fan have been begging for a KT update was a wee-bit rude.
The two campaign settings receive the same amount of material year in and year out.
The Forgotten Realms novels come out at a rate 20 to 1 compared to the Eberron novels.
Then notice how in 2007 the FR will get even more RP material than Eberron.
So what's your concern here?
We'll get our beloved Kara-Tur back on 3.5. I am expecting it somewhere in the next two years.
On a positive note: It probably means they will let Paizo start making their own GH stuff.
I hope so. The Adventure Paths are amazing & have gotten progressively better since The Shackled City. The Age of Worms is a great piece of work.
An old Dungeon magazine (or Dragon I don't remember correctly) with an interview to ED. The problem is that it was translated in Italian and the issue numbers here are a little different from their original counterparts so you 'll just have to take my word for it.
Sorry friend, but I'm an "If I didn't see it, it didn't happen" kind of person when it comes to heresay.
I can wait until you research it further & confirm what was said in the interview.
Most likely it was Dragon. I don't recall any earthshattering interviews with Ed in any editions of Dungeon.
Sorry friend, but I'm an "If I didn't see it, it didn't happen" kind of person.
I can wait until you research it further & confirm what was said.
Then you 'll have to wait for I don't know how much.
Just don't hold your breath, friend. :D
Besides, I don't care to convince you over something I'm sure, that has been mentioned even by some other posters (Markus Tay has heard it too), and that ultimately is not important at all as of now.
Besides, I don't care to convince you over something I'm sure, that has been mentioned even by some other posters.
Why bring it up in the first place if your aim wasn't to convince me that you were right? ;)
Anyone can refute something with "Well, I heard it from X," and that doesn't change the fact that the names on the cover of my old copy of OA don't include Ed's name.
Why bring it up in the first place if your aim wasn't to convince me that you were right? ;)
Well, with the intention to inform you, just like everything else I wrote. Not a portion of it I came up with myself. You can only complain to me for this question, though.
Anyhow, since you're insisting, I think that I read the article in 1999 but the issue was from some earlier year (1997?).
That's all I can give you for now.
If only the old sage was here...
Anyhow, since you're insisting, I think that I read the article in 1999 but the issue was from some earlier year (1997?).
That's all I can give you for now.
It is a starting point, my friend, and a better one than "Well I heard that..."
I can now go through my old mags to see if I can find such an article, or at least dig through the stacks at the FLGS when I go play in the Texas Hold Em' tournament on the weekend.
I'm holding the OA book in my hands right now, and nowhere is Ed's name mentioned in the credits. Also, there is a seperate section with many names entitled "Special Thanks To", and his name is STILL not mentioned. Then, in the Preface, Gary mentions having started work (at least mentally) on an Oriental-style campaign world since 1980! The 1e OA was the result of that.
This leads me to believe that the article we both remember Francius stated that Ed took from 1e OA rather then gave, but once again I could be wrong.
I LOVE FR, and the Geography is lightyears more realistic then Greyhawk (which I also loved back in the day), but I still would have to disagree with you about it's 'naturalness'. Deserts next to Glaciers does not seem very real to me, even if they were ret-conned to be more like the steppes in the north. Adding an Arabic people (the Bedine) to a setting that was already over-loaded with Middle-Eastern cultures was just super-wrong. It was a BIG mistake, and the designers realized it when they had to explain where an indegenious tribe of bedouins managed to evolve in a desert that was only a few centuries old. That is why we have the ever-so-convenient portal explanation. I like the idea of the calim genies coming from Zakhara, but the Bedine were a little much. We have so many excellent desert races in D&D that it was pointless to place them there (wasn't a novel to blame, once again?)
I don't want to argue with anyone, because I am a HUGE fan of FR, but I'm not fanboyyish enough not to point out its defeciencies.
I also like a lot about Eberron, and who knows... thats the way I USED to feel about FR when I was the last person I knew still playing Greyhawk. Times change, people change... it's all good. ;)
It is a starting point, my friend, and a better one than "Well I heard that..."
This is just paraphrasizing.
I told you I actually read that article and I also gave you an explanation about what the conditions were.
I did not just hear about it.
I can now go through my old mags to see if I can find such an article, or at least dig through the stacks at the FLGS when I go play in the Texas Hold Em' tournament on the weekend.
Ok, have fun.
Bear in mind however that I don't envy you at all, pal.
..."dig through the stacks at the FLGS"....
Man...
I told you I actually read that article and I also gave you an explanation about what the conditions were.
You also gave MarkusTay as your witness & he just gave different interpretation of the article's contents, but at least admits that his recollections might be in error.
Fact still remains that if Ed contributed to Kara-Tur, he's noticiably missing from any credits in the book.
Deserts next to Glaciers does not seem very real to me,
Of course they don't. It' a fantasy world so some things are meant to be different from real life.
Adding an Arabic people (the Bedine) to a setting that was already over-loaded with Middle-Eastern cultures was just super-wrong.
Chock full with middle-eastern cultures?
The only ones bearing a culture similar to the bedine could be the nomads wandering the desert of Al-Qadim.
What else?
It was a BIG mistake, and the designers realized it when they had to explain where an indegenious tribe of bedouins managed to evolve in a desert that was only a few centuries old.
Hmm, I do not think it's easier to explain how trains travel over lightning rails and pieces of chulk and wood seem to have a free will and conscience...
It's all fantasy buddy, roll with it.
Also just a quick note on those threads that appear over there. I have seen two by the way. One person post about it. Everybody else post that well at their local gaming stores Eberron is either equaling ot exceeding Frs sells...So what does this tell you? Absolutely nothing. If you want to know how well Ebberron sells are doing get that info from the company...my guess is that 1: It is outselling Realms stuff because most stuff coming out for the Realms isn't useful for players. 2: Or if it is not outselling the Realms which is possible...it is doing well because they are continuing to release it. But then again that is just a educated guess
Also in Europe you guys get things so far behind I can understand why Eberron isn't doing that well. Personaly I would check to see things like amazon.com sells of Ebberron stuff in Europe before I make judgements.
The reason why Eberron isn't being carry in gaming store(by the way you find them in B&N and Borders) is because most gaming stores are owned by gamers...and if the owner is as somepeople taking the existence of Ebberron as a personal affront then they will try to kill it for personal reasons and not carry it. Which of course is bad bussiness sense buy hey that is why alot of them are going out of bussiness.
You also gave MarkusTay as your witness & he just gave different interpretation of the article's contents, but at least admits that his recollections might be in error.
I told you that Markus Tay (based on what he said) knows about the article I mentioned you.
His version was posted later after he said that he has heard about the same article.
If you still don't want to believe it, suit yourself.
Are we going to play with words for some more?
Fact still remains that if Ed contributed to Kara-Tur, he's noticiably missing from any credits in the book.
I did not say that ED contributed to the 1st edition of Kara-Tur.
Here's what I originally posted:
Ed had been writing articles about the Forgotten Realms on the Dragon Magazine long before 1985. It was his intention to incorporate an oriental land east from Faerun called Kara-Tur.
Did you get it correct now? It was just his intention. He might very well not have been involved at all.
At least I hope that there's not a doubt about how he was sequentially involved in the OA 2nd edition.
The Realms are not just ED. They are in fact the result of the work of countless persons. It's one of the things that attracted me at first.
The Realms are not just ED. They are in fact the result of the work of countless persons. It's one of the things that attracted me at first.
It always was one of my points; Forgotten Realms do not belong just to Ed in a way, but to every guys who did a love labour in adding materials to fleshen the original version.
And I don't want the fandom to become like the grognard side of the Grehawk one, where anyone outside of Gygax is diregarded.
Also just a quick note on those threads that appear over there. I have seen two by the way.
Only as of recent. I have seen many more during the time I've been here.
So what does this tell you? Absolutely nothing.
Just like the persons that start those kind of threads.
If you want to know how well Ebberron sells are doing get that info from the company...
That's the only way to travel safe.
my guess is that 1: It is outselling Realms stuff because most stuff coming out for the Realms isn't useful for players.
My guess is that 1.)it is not outselling the Realms (the contrary is true) and 2) actually the majority of the Realms stuff is useful to the players. Every book coming out has feats, Regional lore and the super adventures trend of this year is very much to my taste.
2: Or if it is not outselling the Realms which is possible...it is doing well because they are continuing to release it.
It's doing well but not like the Realms.
Also in Europe you guys get things so far behind I can understand why Eberron isn't doing that well. Personaly I would check to see things like amazon.com sells of Ebberron stuff in Europe before I make judgements.
Biased, incorrect and close perspectived opinion about Europe.
I am not even going to start a political/economical/technological debate about this, but to solve your problem just keep in mind that Wotc is importing the Eberron material just like it does with the FR - and we've been having Eberron since summer 2004. All the role playing products (I won't derail talking about other stuff imported from the US) usually ship after two weeks from their first pubblishing in the american market.
The reason why Eberron isn't being carry in gaming store(by the way you find them in B&N and Borders) is because most gaming stores are owned by gamers...
How do you know that? Have you any other proof for it other than your own experience?
...and if the owner is as somepeople taking the existence of Ebberron as a personal affront then they will try to kill it for personal reasons and not carry it. Which of course is bad bussiness sense buy hey that is why alot of them are going out of bussiness.
Not true here in Rome.
At least I can speak about my city.
I do not know about the US, but here the shop owners I know (and I know a whole lot of them) are actually persons with a degree (even a lesser one) in economics or business management.
Of course they don't. It' a fantasy world so some things are meant to be different from real life.
Chock full with middle-eastern cultures?
The only ones bearing a culture similar to the bedine could be the nomads wandering the desert of Al-Qadim.
Um...did you just say you find the FR geography realistic? Can you atleast make up your mind? Don't praise one for being fantasic and daming the other for not being realistic.
And wow can you insult middle east cultures. And to think there are just slightly south of you. But I'll go though the list
Unther
Mulhondi
All of Zakhara
Calmishan(also having desert nomads by the way)
Elements of the shining south(also having desert nomads)
etc.
Middle East culture is more than just desert nomads.
Only as of recent. I have seen many more during the time I've been here.
Just like the persons that start those kind of threads.
That's the only way to travel safe.
My guess is that 1.)it is not outselling the Realms (the contrary is true) and 2) actually the majority of the Realms stuff is useful to the players. Every book coming out has feats, Regional lore and the super adventures trend of this year is very much to my taste.
It's doing well but not like the Realms.
Biased, incorrect and close perspectived opinion about Europe.
I am not even going to start a political/economical/technological debate about this, but to solve your problem just keep in mind that Wotc is importing the Eberron material just like it does with the FR - and we've been having Eberron since summer 2004. All the role playing products (I won't derail talking about other stuff imported from the US) usually ship after two weeks from their first pubblishing in the american market.
How do you know that? Have you any other proof for it other than your own experience?
Not true here in Rome.
At least I can speak about my city.
I do not know about the US, but here the shop owners I know (and I know a whole lot of them) are actually persons with a degree (even a lesser one) in economics or business management.
I disagree modules aren't useful to player as a matter of fact if I know one of my players buys a modules I don't buy it or run it. Also please name a FR book coming out this year that as new feats in it? That they would need to but the book?
um... just because you have a degree doesn't mean you are professional about it. And true I can only really speak about the Tri-state area ( NJ, NY, and Penn.). I have done alot of research into this because I have plans to open a gaming store in this area. And the biggest complaint I hear is that owners tend not to care what the customer wants and projects there wants and desire on to everybody else. I.E "I don't like Ebberron all other players don't like it either." It is just like you are doing with Ebberron's popularity in Europe you don't like it so it is unpopular. Because till I see actualy data that says other wise all I got is your word and you are prejudice in this. Before I can believe I need to see a unbias anaylsis of Ebberron's sales in Europe as well as market research etc.
Um...did you just say you find the FR geography realistic? Can you atleast make up your mind? Don't praise one for being fantasic and daming the other for not being realistic.
Man are you capable of misreading.
Here's what I said:
The geography of the Forgotten Realms is by light years more natural - and more beautiful I might add. (compared to the one of Eberron)
And wow can you insult middle east cultures.
Pardon me?
Oh, you mean middle-east cultures of the Realms as I next read.
And to think there are just slightly south of you. But I'll go though the list
Unther
Mulhondi
All of Zakhara
Calmishan(also having desert nomads by the way)
Elements of the shining south(also having desert nomads)
Let's take a look about the places you mention and how they relate to their real-life counterparts:
Calimshan= Turkey(I can give this to you)
Zakhara=(mix of persia and India. India is not middle-east.)
Mulhorand=Egypt (is it in the middle-east culture for you???)
Unther= Also Egypt (is it in the middle-east culture for you???)
Middle East culture is more than just desert nomads.
No, really...
I disagree modules aren't useful to player as a matter of fact if I know one of my players buys a modules I don't buy it or run it. Also please name a FR book coming out this year that has new feats in it? That they would need to but the book?
I disagree with you too.
Keep in mind that this year is the year of super adventure modules.
As a DM I can tell you that adventure modules are much useful to me and time saving. The format of regional sourcebooks amalgamed with an adventure is one I like.
My players never buy adventures.
I am sure that expedition to the undermountain will surely have some useful stuff about players - even a tad bit.
Wait till next year.
um... just because you have a degree doesn't mean you are professional about it. And true I can only really speak about the Tri-state area ( NJ, NY, and Penn.).
At least it means you have a clearer view of the market and you are schooled enough to not try to sabotaj your own business by yourself just like you said previously.
I have done alot of research into this because I have plans to open a gaming store in this area. And the biggest complaint I hear is that owners tend not to care what the customer wants and projects there wants and desire on to everybody else.
Best luck and try to solve that problem you keep hearing from customers about how shop keepers in your area don't give a dim about their preferences.
It is just like you are doing with Ebberron's popularity in Europe you don't like it so it is unpopular.
Because till I see actualy data that says other wise all I got is your word and you are prejudice in this. Before I can believe I need to see a unbias anaylsis of Ebberron's sales in Europe as well as market research etc.
I posted some data earlier.
I have many RP friends all over Europe to whom I frequently talk and my personal experience is added as a final back-up to sustain my argument.
The only way to settle this is ask Wotc themselves.
You said the same about Eberron's sales without giving us anything for a proof so I guess one is to take it as a biased opinion, no?
Just wait and think before you go on and call someone's opinion "biased" and prejudiced".
Not only do I love these FR-based "Eberron is ruining D&D" tirades, but it is simply amazing to note the number of ways (on purpose or otherwise) that you can misspell "Eberron" in one thread.
-Eberron is ruining D&D! :headexplo ;)
Sorry friend, but I'm an "If I didn't see it, it didn't happen" kind of person when it comes to heresay.
-You're gonna be waiting a long time, then, SixXx. Francius usually does not provide concrete facts to back up what he says. But, then again, he said it, and everything Francius says is correct...
-Eberron is ruining D&D! :headexplo ;)
You know that you & GothicDan are two of my favorite people on the interwebthingie, right? :D
-You're gonna be waiting a long time, then, SixXx. Francius usually does not provide concrete facts to back up what he says. But, then again, he said it, and everything Francius says is correct...
So I noticed. Anyone that insistant & belligerant can't be lying though. I'd just like the opportunity to read this alleged article for myself.
I'm apparently completely wrong because either I doubt his word or because I'm not Italian. Probably both.
Hey! Ghost Dog is on now!
You know that you & GothicDan are two of my favorite people on the interwebthingie, right? :D
-Hurrah!
-You know, I am slowly building an army to take over the multiverse. Would you like to be my proxy in the Eberronsphere when I do so? ;)
Anyone that insistant can't be lying though.
-You'd be surprised. I don't know off-hand about the existence of said article, but Francius does have the temperment of a camel.
-You know, I am slowly building an army to take over the multiverse. Would you like to be my proxy in the Eberronsphere when I do so? ;)
I will enforce the common will with an iron fist.
-You'd be surprised. I don't know off-hand about the existence of said article, but Francius does have the temperment of a camel.
Eh, no more so than any other message board personality determined to be correct, myself included. He does seem rather eager to hit that "Post Reply" icon, though. Doesn't even give you a chance to edit for typos.
Hey! Some kick-butt, Korean modern pirate movie called Typhoon is on! Looks like I'm watching that instead of Ghost Dog which I've seen a bajillion times..
I will enforce the common will with an iron fist.
-Excellent, excellent. Feel free to abuse that power at will.
Hey! Some kick-butt, Korean modern pirate movie called Typhoon is on! Looks like I'm watching that instead of Ghost Dog which I've seen a bajillion times..
-All seven NYC sports teams are going to be playing tonight, so I wil have some good stuff to watch as well.
You know that you & GothicDan are two of my favorite people on the interwebthingie, right?
<3 x 3.
-You'd be surprised. I don't know off-hand about the existence of said article, but Francius does have the temperment of a camel.
see?
More Middle-Eastern refernces!
You also forgot the Bedine, and the Sembians were originally moroccan in flavor, but have become more pre-unification italy over time (they still wear turbans, but are switching over to Fezzes, maybe they're Shriners)
and Thay is sort of like pre-Istanbul Turkey (Byzantine), also wearing towels upon their heads. Halrua was Netherese... but more middle-Eastern architecture and towels.
Zakhara has virtually NO India in it, just Arabia. I will be putting a little India in it shortly (The Rakshasa ruled the jungle in the north at one point, along with the other jungle across the water in Petan (lower KT). That is, until the Yuan-ti moved in (there goes the neighborhood).
In fact, the rakshasa/Yuan-ti wars is the entire premise for my KT pre-history piece, before the coming of the Lung peoples (Oriental immigrants from another plain). Stay tuned. ;)
I'm really starting to feel like looking for that article... I remember something like a Q&A thing and I'm fairly certain he was asked about kara-Tur. I wish I could remember... damn this foggy ol' brain of mine lately.
Ball, meet floor...
Anyhow, I'm sure Stormreach is good, but the only thing WotC could have had a chance with up against a juggernaught like Blizzard (makers of WoW) was an FR-based Online game.
Ah, well....
I found a link showing the ORIGINAL Demonweb pits, notice the crappy nostalgic artwork. :D
Wow, lol, that is some crazy back-in-the-day artwork. IMHO the best artwork "style" was during 2nd edition.... looked real, not too fantasy or too cartoony.
-
-I wasn't aware that Dick Cheney was artistic.
...
LOL, come on, you had to know I was being sarcastic with that one...... although shooting your hunting partner in the face and later having HIM apologize to YOU (on National television) for getting in YOUR way, is an art of some kind I guess, LOL
LOL, come on, you had to know I was being sarcastic with that one...... although shooting your hunting partner in the face and later having HIM apologize to YOU (on National television) for getting in YOUR way, is an art of some kind I guess, LOL
-I guess it's an art...
see?
More Middle-Eastern refernces!
-That's awesome! You caught that! I originally wrote 'stubborn like a mule', but then changed it when I realized that we were talking about the Middle-East.
I will subscribe to this thread.
Not only do I love these FR-based "Eberron is ruining D&D" tirades, but it is simply amazing to note the number of ways (on purpose or otherwise) that you can misspell "Eberron" in one thread.
This will make for very humorous reading for the rest of the week, I think.
LOL, it was on purpose..... I was trying to act as if Ebborran wasnt worth spelling right, lol.
But seriously, I dont have anything against the setting.... as a matter of fact the more settings the better (I loved when there was Fearun, Kara-Tura, Maztica, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Ravenloft, etc;). I just dont like it when the people of power (WOTC) play favorites with their new purchase/idea/setting.
Strangely, this issue never happened back in the 2nd edition days, albeit we had running in the market simultaneously over seven official TSR campaign settings.
Uh ya....... strangely we also didnt have internet or discussion boards back in 1992...... hmmmmm, maybe it did happen through postal mail but ya just didnt know about it???? Huh???? Maybe??????
Uh ya....... strangely we also didnt have internet or discussion boards back in 1992...... hmmmmm, maybe it did happen through postal mail but ya just didnt know about it???? Huh???? Maybe??????
-The basic prototype of today's internet was created during the 50's (by Al Gore ;) ). The internet as we know it, though, really started to gain prevalence, in the early 90's, and by the end of the 90's, was a staple in nearly every home in every industrialized state.
If it makes $...
If it doesn't make $...:thumbsdow
-The general rule of thumb is:
If it makes $...
If it doesn't make $...:thumbsdow
And it's what happened at the end - too much settings sadly, and the less popular ones like Birthright fadded off...
-The basic prototype of today's internet was created during the 50's (by Al Gore ;) ). The internet as we know it, though, really started to gain prevalence, in the early 90's, and by the end of the 90's, was a staple in nearly every home in every industrialized state.
Yes I know Al Gore invented it way back when (I thought it was the 30's not the 50's, but I'll have to go through some of my old Dragon telegraph-zines and make sure I'm right, lol), but there are WAY more people on forums in the new milennia then there was in the early and mid 90's.
IMHO people are willing to complain and whine (like me, lol) on the internet, but much more lazy and lose their fire when they have to write a letter, pay postage, go to the mailbox, and wait 3-6 business weeks for a response saying, " Thank you for your concerns and suggestions. Your letter has been forwarded on to the appropriate department for review."
I like the idea of the calim genies coming from Zakhara, but the Bedine were a little much. We have so many excellent desert races in D&D that it was pointless to place them there (wasn't a novel to blame, once again?)
Not just genies, but get this; genies ... from the future. I am not kidding.
That's why I use the elemental planes/another prime world for my Calimshan origins, which was also given in Empires of the Shining Sea. Occam's vorpal razor goes snicker-snap.
I did not say that ED contributed to the 1st edition of Kara-Tur.
Here's what I originally posted:
Ed had been writing articles about the Forgotten Realms on the Dragon Magazine long before 1985. It was his intention to incorporate an oriental land east from Faerun called Kara-Tur.
Did you get it correct now? It was just his intention. He might very well not have been involved at all.
At least I hope that there's not a doubt about how he was sequentially involved in the OA 2nd edition.
The Realms are not just ED. They are in fact the result of the work of countless persons. It's one of the things that attracted me at first.
I will direct you to the beginning of this post by Ed.
Posted by The Hooded One (who relays questions and answers to and from Ed) at Candlekeep forums on July 02, 2006 in the "Questions for Ed Greenwood (2006)" thread, page 45:
Hi again, scribes. As promised, here’s Ed’s reply to Halaster Blackcloak’s question: “. . .where did the inspiration for Szass Tam come from? Again, I found a movie that features a character that's stunningly similar in appearance . . .”
Ed replies:
Szass Tam first “really” fell into my forebrain in a story I wrote in 1977, though his name and the idea he was a mighty powerful mage dwelling somewhere in the east, who had something to do with undead, were floating around in my Realms writings a decade earlier.
In that tale, I made him undead himself, and the most “interested in the lands of the west” of the zulkirs (or “zulkiirs”) who ruled Thay. Thay was my Orient, or as close as the Realms was going to get to it: NOT Oriental human subraces, but rather a warm-climate, dusty-part-desert old and decadent slave empire ruled by people who had mastered powerful magic, shaved their heads (think: Moondragon of Marvel Comics fame), and were cruel by western standards. There was a power struggle of sorts between royalty and nobility on one hand, and these magic-strong zulkirs on the other, with tharchions (and tharchionesses) being regional governors that in the old days were “patronage appointments” given to nobles by reigning royalty, and that were increasingly being seized by zulkirs and filled by themselves or their (militarily capable, ruthless) appointees. Szass Tam was a bit of a restless maverick among the zulkirs, so to stay on top against BOTH his fellow zulkirs and the royalty, he’d have to be super-powerful, and a man who’d been anticipating attacks and treacheries for centuries and preparing for them: he always had a Plan B and C, and X, Y, and Z, all of which he could shift like puzzle pieces to respond to any threat and deflect or shatter it (usually deflect it so as to harm a rival).
Like Larloch, ideally he would never feature directly in play - - because he would watch adventurers and others, and respond through layers of intermediaries so his own involvement would usually never be proven or traced (it could be rumored or suspected, but no more than that).
I’m afraid my dial-up rural Net connections are far too crude to view the URLs you’ve provided (I haven’t even tried; animations? video clips? Hahahaha; not on THIS computer!!), but I’ll see if I can sneak a peak at them at a public library high-speed terminal. Thanks!
So saith Ed. Who’d love to see a Realms movie if (and only if) it were done right, but doesn’t ever expect to (long story).
love to all,
THO
Man are you capable of misreading.
Here's what I said:
The geography of the Forgotten Realms is by light years more natural - and more beautiful I might add. (compared to the one of Eberron)
Pardon me?
Oh, you mean middle-east cultures of the Realms as I next read.
Let's take a look about the places you mention and how they relate to their real-life counterparts:
Calimshan= Turkey(I can give this to you)
Zakhara=(mix of persia and India. India is not middle-east.)
Mulhorand=Egypt (is it in the middle-east culture for you???)
Unther= Also Egypt (is it in the middle-east culture for you???)
No, really...
Actualy I find places in Ebberon just as breath taking as the Realms. And you natural? Yet they have a dersert next to a glacier ok how is this natural? and can you give 2 examples of Eberron that is n't natural terrain? Also um...got news for Waterdeep isn't natural either.
Wow thanks for giving me on there on Clamshan.
Um... last time I checked Zakhara was called Al-Qadim...as a matter of fact it was probably call Zahara when it was tacked on. Have you even seen the setting it is definitly Arabic based world. I mean it has genie magic for pete sake.
Also Egypt is middle eastern culture. It's influence on it is quite plain to see. Also as I state all the places have have a Bedouin cultures.
I disagree with you too.
Keep in mind that this year is the year of super adventure modules.
As a DM I can tell you that adventure modules are much useful to me and time saving. The format of regional sourcebooks amalgamed with an adventure is one I like.
My players never buy adventures.
I am sure that expedition to the undermountain will surely have some useful stuff about players - even a tad bit.
Wait till next year.
At least it means you have a clearer view of the market and you are schooled enough to not try to sabotaj your own business by yourself just like you said previously.
Best luck and try to solve that problem you keep hearing from customers about how shop keepers in your area don't give a dim about their preferences.
I posted some data earlier.
I have many RP friends all over Europe to whom I frequently talk and my personal experience is added as a final back-up to sustain my argument.
The only way to settle this is ask Wotc themselves.
You said the same about Eberron's sales without giving us anything for a proof so I guess one is to take it as a biased opinion, no?
Just wait and think before you go on and call someone's opinion "biased" and prejudiced".
Just my own personal opinion I find modules as a DM to be useless...so I'll admitt I might have some bias here. Though you do agree that players don't buy modules which means the sales will be lower for FR stuff then Eberron since most things in Ebberron will be brought by DM and player alike while the FR modules will be just mostly picked up the DM. Next year of course we'll see about next year when we see the planned products.
Yes but if history has taught us one thing about human nature is the education will loose out to emotion and ego of people.
Sure I don't have any numbers to back up what I said just what I have observed in the gaming stores I have visited. but then again I really do like both the FR and Ebberron so there is no bias on my part. Personaly I want to see both do really well. I also think both (though FR has problems) are worth the price of buying the books currently. I do critize the Realms more but it has been around alot longer and thus more mistakes have been done.
Personaly I think that the it would be better for the any campaign world to stop being published after a certain point. Also I think it would be better if the novels they published for these campaign world were one of two things. Either set back in the history of the world thus exploring the history. Or small scale stuff to give exposure to the mordern culture of the world without radicaly altering it. But that is just my two cents.
By the way have you checked up if I was right about Minder from the D&D comic? It was issue 9 where the story came out. Though I know earlier than that it was a spirit inside the iron golem but there was a question on if it was the female human or the female dwarf(w/ a beard).
Yes I know Al Gore invented it...
-Just so you know, Al Gore really didn't invent the internet...
He traveled back in time with Chuck Norris and Ed Greenwood, and the three of them invented everything!
;) :D
Thanks for that, Dark Wizard, but where do you get that the Genies were from the future?
Not to
, but....I do remember something in a magazine from a while ago, and having only discovered the wonders of CK recently it certainly could not havee been read there. I'm fairly certain Ed was asked about KT, and his response was something to the effect the 'he always assumed some type of Oriental-style realm FAR to the East, but never gave it much thought beyond that'.
This doesn't neccessarily disagree with your quote of him, DW, because we are talking about two different things here. In that quote, Ed states that "Thay was my Orient, or as close as the Realms was going to get to it...", and he his speaking about HIS campaign in particular, and what HIS adventurers could find there. He had no intention of developing anything further east for his players, BUT from what I recall reading (somewhere), he had some concept about what 'might' be there.
He had many notes and concepts about his world that have never seen print anywhere, and probably never will. Some of it might go against what has been developed, while other things might have gone the way he figured them.
Remember, Ed already had multiple Arabian-style areas, he NEVER had any intentions of developing anything further south then Nimbral (and I'm not even sure if that was his). KT looks to have been incorporated perfectly, and fits beautifuly. Zakhara, on the other hand, doesn't seem like such a good fit. I'm not talking about the maps, I got them to fit just fine (Ulgarth is actually just off the northern edge of the Al-Qadim maps), I'm talking about putting another similar culture on the planet. However, later tie-ins with Calimshan made the whole thing feasable, and I like it, so it works.
I will direct you to the beginning of this post by Ed.
Thay was my Orient, or as close as the Realms was going to get to it: NOT Oriental human subraces, but rather a warm-climate, dusty-part-desert old and decadent slave empire ruled by people who had mastered powerful magic, shaved their heads (think: Moondragon of Marvel Comics fame), and were cruel by western standards.
Posted by The Hooded One (who relays questions and answers to and from Ed) at Candlekeep forums on July 02, 2006 in the "Questions for Ed Greenwood (2006)" thread, page 45:
Thanks for the info, Dark Wizard.
However here's what I posted again:
I did not say that ED contributed to the 1st edition of Kara-Tur.
Ed had been writing articles about the Forgotten Realms on the Dragon Magazine long before 1985. It was his intention to incorporate an oriental land east from Faerun called Kara-Tur.
It was just his intention. He might very well not have been involved at all.
At least I hope that there's not a doubt about how he was sequentially involved in the OA 2nd edition.
Sorry if I was wrong about the "Kara-Tur" name. However ED did intent to incorporate an Oriental setting to Faerun. The article I read said it clearly.
Actualy I find places in Ebberon just as breath taking as the Realms.
There sure are some nice places in Eberron but they 're not as awe-inspiring as those of the Realms.
Besides, if I liked Eberron I would be playing there too. I possess the campaign setting and some more material about it yet it failed to grab my attention.
And you natural? Yet they have a dersert next to a glacier ok how is this natural?
Well, it's a fantasy world. Some stuff about geography is sure to be exagerated.
Also um...got news for Waterdeep isn't natural either.
???
Um... last time I checked Zakhara was called Al-Qadim...
Who said the contrary?
as a matter of fact it was probably call Zahara when it was tacked on. Have you even seen the setting it is definitly Arabic based world. I mean it has genie magic for pete sake.
The world of Zakhara (Al-Qadim) was NOT tacked on.
Since the 1st Arabian Adventures book came up, it clearly said that the world on which Al-Qadim takes place is the Forgotten Realms.
I told you:Zakhara=(mix of persia and India. India is not middle-east. Persia is.)
When you say Arabia you mean the exact same states as I do: Arabia Saudi, Yemen, Oman, EAU, Qatar, Kuwait and Iraq (once Persia).
We are saying the same thing.
Also Egypt is middle eastern culture. It's influence on it is quite plain to see. Also as I state all the places have have a Bedouin cultures.
Egypt is not middle-eastern culture. It, like Libya, Ethiopia and Sudan are southern cultures. Many nations of the past ,both middle-eastern and southern, had similar nomadic lifestyles (bedine) because they encompassed large deserts in their territories.
Just my own personal opinion I find modules as a DM to be useless...so I'll admitt I might have some bias here. Though you do agree that players don't buy modules which means the sales will be lower for FR stuff then Eberron since most things in Ebberron will be brought by DM and player alike while the FR modules will be just mostly picked up the DM. Next year of course we'll see about next year when we see the planned products.
I have always found adventure modules both interesting and fun, to read and to run (hey, nice rhyme).
Since 2000 and the new Forgotten Realms products' line was introduced, we only got regional sourcebooks in our hands -and a lot of them too. Only a single adventure was pubblished in the first five years (2000-2005): City of the spider queen.
Adventure modules in the new Realms edition started coming out with constistency as late as just two years ago starting with "sons of gruumsh" (a very short one).
The fact that Wotc are dishing out more adventures instead of regional sourcebooks as of late is not a negative fact. It's a necessity since almost none initially existed.
Yes but if history has taught us one thing about human nature is the education will loose out to emotion and ego of people.
I am sure that you 'll be an unbiased shop owner who will treat equally well both settings-and every other one that will eventually come out that is.
Anyhow, best luck in your project again.
Personaly I think that the it would be better for the any campaign world to stop being published after a certain point. Also I think it would be better if the novels they published for these campaign world were one of two things. Either set back in the history of the world thus exploring the history. Or small scale stuff to give exposure to the mordern culture of the world without radicaly altering it. But that is just my two cents.
Ah, I 'm more of the opinion that "the older one fantasy campaign world grows, the better it gets - just like whine.
However, the Realms are young. They are just 20 years old. There are a whole lot more stories to tell.
Novels are there to count the passing of the years and to chronicle the events that take place during this flow. The novels actually make said world breathe and come to life. I think that a fictional world cannot live without saying that the novels are canon for it.
By the way have you checked up if I was right about Minder from the D&D comic? It was issue 9 where the story came out. Though I know earlier than that it was a spirit inside the iron golem but there was a question on if it was the female human or the female dwarf(w/ a beard).
I do not have issue 9. Are you sure it was issue 9 when the story was unveiled? I told you that "alas" my FR comic collection is not complete. I 'll check to see if they have some available on E-bay.
Yet again you start insulting other persons for no reason and without having anything to do with their discussion.
So:
You're gonna be waiting a long time, then, SixXx. Francius usually does not provide concrete facts to back up what he says.
Yeah, like you've been known me for a long time.
Didn't I provide some data earlier when talking about sales' numbers?
Besides, I proved in another post how you can unshamely go on and call other persons wrong when it is clearly *you* the one in error.
But, then again, he said it, and everything Francius says is correct...
At least Francius tells other persons what he thinks of them in their face, unlike a certain coward who goes by the name of LordKarsus.
The only thing I'm doing here, is sharing some of my material with the rest of the forum and supporting my favourite setting.
I don't think I'm disrespectful to anybody. Yet you keep talking trush about me for no reason.
Remember this, Lord(?)Karsus?
From Francius to LordKarsus:
Truly, what a big coward you are.
I looked today for your private message and yet none was there to be found after 2 whole days.Guess what? You answered me where I had presumably told you that I wouldn't talk to you no more.
You went on and throwed a heavy insult to us European men based off nothing concrete and just because your mind felt like that way; then you have the guts to say it was I who insulted you before that.
How did I insult you? By telling you that you have to sharpen your percepion skills?Can the two insults even be compared? Did that justify you of posting what you did?
Then I invited you to take this discussion outside since it's clear you went on the personal road (like you admitted) and your arguments have nothing to do anymore with the discussion on these boards.
I told you to take this outside and what did you do?You chickened out.
I told you to answer me with a private message and what did you do?You chickened out.
Either you can't read or you're just a coward without a neck.
This time you can't say I don't have concrete facts to back up my statement - that I say you're a caitiff acting coward.
Goodbye Karsus, who has an ambiguous behavior for a man and an even worse caitiff tendency.
If you intend to respond me send me a private message - act like a man for a change.
If you have something personal against me, like I told you 5 times before, we can always settle it outside of the forum.
What do you say?
To LordKarsus:
Yet again you start insulting other persons for no reason and without having anything to do with their discussion.
-Not really insulting. More like letting SixXx how you operate, quoting sources, but yet hardly ever giving those citations.
Yeah, like you've been known me for a long time.
-For as long as you have been registered to these message boards, I have been here.
Didn't I provide some data earlier when talking about sales' numbers?
-You provided very little data, especially when Dark Wizard challenged you on nearly every single one of your points, which you never responded to. I can repost them, if you like.
Besides, I proved in another post how you can unshamely go on and call other persons wrong when it is clearly *you* the one in error.
-Please cite your reference.
At least Francius tells other persons what he thinks of them in their face, unlike a certain coward who goes by the name of LordKarsus.
-Actually, there is a space between 'Lord' and 'Karsus', hence my name being 'Lord Karsus', and not 'LordKarsus'.
-And, when have I not told you what I think about you?
I don't think I'm disrespectful to anybody. Yet you keep talking trush about me for no reason.
-Again, please cite your reference? When did I "trush talk" you? I merely informed SixXx to not wait on the information he was waiting for you to provide him, based on past experiences I have had with you, concerning providing cited sources.
Remember this, Lord(?)Karsus?
If you have something personal against me, like I told you 5 times before, we can always settle it outside of the forum.
What do you say?
-Yes, yes, I remember. And, your point is...?
-I have nothing personal against you (as of now). I do dislike you to a degree, but that is because you so often babble about things that you have no clue about, that seems like 100% pure conjecture. When challenged on said points, you refuse, in most cases, to provide the sources that you are borrowing your information from. Were some newly registered user to do that, I would dislike them. If GothicDan started doing that, I would start getting angry at him. And so on, and so forth. If you corrected your behavior, which, at this point, has not happened, then I would not take everything you say with a pinch of salt, and I would not tell others to do the same. Get it?
-Just so you know, Al Gore really didn't invent the internet...
Ya right Karsus..... you're not geeting me on that one, I KNOW that Al Gore DID INDEED invent the internet..... and discovered global warming.... silly guy, lol.
Of course I know Al Gore didnt invent the internet, I was being sarcastic..... I know an iq of 142 and 3 years of college at the university level doesnt automatically mean I'm smart, but I'd at least like to think that I know as much as a 12 year old, lol.
You kill me, lol.
Ya right Karsus..... you're not geeting me on that one, I KNOW that Al Gore DID INDEED invent the internet..... and discovered global warming.... silly guy, lol.
-Gah, you got me! :D
You kill me, lol.
-A lot of people have said that to me, over the years...
Yes he did!
He traveled back in time with Chuck Norris and Ed Greenwood, and the three of them invented everything!
;) :D
-No, no, no. It was Al Gore, Gary Gygax, Stephen Hawking, the black woman from Star Trek and Nibbler! :D
Remind me to tell you the REAL story of how the Egyptian pantheon came to faerûn some time....
:D
He traveled back in time with Chuck Norris and Ed Greenwood, and the three of them invented everything!
No, no, no. It was Al Gore, Gary Gygax, Stephen Hawking, the black woman from Star Trek and Nibbler!
Maybe Al Gore is a ubiquitous cross-planar cosmic entity. On par with an overgod, but instead of Ao, he's Al.
Thanks for that, Dark Wizard, but where do you get that the Genies were from the future?
The introduction to Empires of the Shining Sea.
I do remember something in a magazine from a while ago, and having only discovered the wonders of CK recently it certainly could not havee been read there. I'm fairly certain Ed was asked about KT, and his response was something to the effect the 'he always assumed some type of Oriental-style realm FAR to the East, but never gave it much thought beyond that'.
I asked Ed last year on Candlekeep about his take on a Far Eastern region next to Faerun, basically how he would have done Kara-Tur. I wanted to dig up inspiration for my revamp of Kara-Tur. Ed has yet to get back to me, which likely shows this is not an easily accessible answer, either filed away deep in his basement or hasn't been written yet. If this mysterious article says as definitively as this discussion seems to recall, then I have a feeling he or one of the regulars at Candlekeep might have pointed me towards it by now. I suspect this article is probably more vague on this matter than the version being discussed here.
This doesn'y neccessarily disagree with your quote of him, DW, because we are talking about two different things here. In that quote, Ed states that "Thay was my Orient, or as close as the Realms was going to get to it...", and he his speaking about HIS campaign in particular, and what HIS adventurers could find there. He had no intention of developing anything further east for his players, BUT from what I recall reading (somewhere), he had some concept about what 'might' be there.
He had many notes and concepts about his world that have never seen print anywhere, and probably never will. Some of it might go against what has been developed, while other things might have gone the way he figured them.
I think it shows that Ed really didn't have much worked out for the far east and the statement I quote hints that he didn't "intent" to really have anything beyond Thay. He may or may not have had an intent to put something like the Far East next to Faerun, but I think this more or less shows that Kara-Tur has no relation to the Realms and is entirely a product of TSR and other designers. Not that this is a bad thing. I generally like David Cook's work. I found his Kara-Tur/Hordelands novel, the Horselords, very enjoyable; I love Planescape, which he helped design.
Remember, Ed already had multiple Arabian-style areas, he NEVER had any intentions of developing anything further south then Nimbral (and I'm not even sure if that was his). KT looks to have been incorporated perfectly, and fits beautifuly.
I too think it's the most fitting of all the non-Faerunian continents in terms of location, layout, potential, and providing opportunities entirely unavailable to gamers in Faerun.
Maybe Al Gore is a ubiquitous cross-planar cosmic entity. On par with an overgod, but instead of Ao, he's Al.
-That might explain the difficulty in dispelling him...
Maybe Al Gore is a ubiquitous cross-planar cosmic entity. On par with an overgod, but instead of Ao, he's Al.
I think he is one of those temporal anomalies that they are always running into on Star Trek... or maybe he's a 'Q'!
That would explain Uhura's presence in the group, to watch over him (and just in case someone needs some 'hailing frequencies' opened). ;)
The introduction to Empires of the Shining Sea.
You REALLY made me nuts with THIS one. I just got done reading EotSS TWICE, cover-to-cover, doing research for my map and my KT/AQ history tie-ins, and I didn't remember this.
I actually read the line you refer to, but you're as bad as me at twisting what is printed into your own dark designs.
What is says is "that scholars think they may have come from Zakhara, and that some of the architecture and styles from that period are reminicent of those used in Zakhara 500 years ago". I para-phrased, but thats pretty much it. Styles come back around all the time, so thats pretty much open-ended and meaningless. They 'may' have come from the future (that gave me a heart attack) means THEIR future, not ours, and they would still have come from at least 500 years in the past! That works out fine for me, as long as it isn't in the 'real' future, like the Illithids. There was some sort of huge war that destroyed everything and left a wasteland of most of Zakhara some time in the past. It isn't given any sort of timeline, but it sounds to have happened at least a thousand years in the past. So with a little juggling, we can say that the genie fled this region around 7-800 years ago, after destroying most of that part of the world. The story from the AQ set doesn't say who actually did it, just that some stupid Prince whished for peace and that is what Fate gave him - in the form of everyone being gone. An old addage particulary useful in that part of the world - "be careful what you wish for". ;)
There are some stories of the four leaders of the genies, as well as a prehistoric fable of four god-brothers (who may have been the uber-powerful genie lords). Not named in the Zakhara material, which is perfect for me. They are the ones that came to Calimshan and built an empire (Memnon got there late, probably took a wrong turn in the wormhole).
Or we can just disregard that staement in EotSS altogether (which I think 3e has) and say that the destruction of Zakhara started in -7800 (when Calim left) and lasted until -6800 (when Memnon fled). That would set everything right in the correct time frames. Since the wishing Prince sat in a tent with Fate until his wish was fulfilled, thousands of years went by outside. He managed to make it to the ruins of his former city before crumbling to dust.
I love that, and it works out with some stuff I'm doing. The genies had a war with the Rakshasa empire in the northeast, pretty much annihalating everything and each other. You gotta love when powerful extra-planar being trash the place. :D
You REALLY made me nuts with THIS one. I just got done reading EotSS TWICE, cover-to-cover, doing research for my map and my KT/AQ history tie-ins, and I didn't remember this.
I actually read the line you refer to, but you're as bad as me at twisting what is printed into your own dark designs.
My apologies, my off-hand statement came from an argument I had with another poster on these boards not too many months before. That poster said EotSS definitively stated the Djen came from Zakhara (I think most of us failed to recall at the time it was from Zakhara's past, not just a simple, non-chronomantic journey from continent to continent ). I write that line in EofSS off as sagely speculation since it seemed the past-Zakharan origin bit was thrown in with the better supported theory that the genies came from the planes or another world, more appropriate to Ed's original portals-to-many-worlds design. It's easier to believe Zakhara's visual designs coincidentally matched those of early Calimshan (perhaps some sort of retro cultural diffusion) than to resort to time travel.
Chronomancy is just messy. Right future-self? Right.
But since Zakhara had this WSE thousands of years ago, and the genies arrived thousands of years ago, it just all sorta fit, ya' know?
Thats my biggest hangup, trying to get everything to work together. I do it with everything, it's like an obsession or something.
Not really insulting. More like letting SixXx how you operate, quoting sources, but yet hardly ever giving those citations.
Yet you do so in a missinforming way and by throwing trash talk at me in an indirect manner.
What you do is called "defamation".
Which is disrespectful - and cowardly too.
For as long as you have been registered to these message boards, I have been here.
My point exactly.
I 've been dropping by here rarely up to now, so you do not know me that well.
-You provided very little data, especially when Dark Wizard challenged you on nearly every single one of your points, which you never responded to. I can repost them, if you like.
I told you many times before that I don't have time to reply to everyone, let alone when I have to respond to 5 posters simultaneously.
You awesomely showed you 're a neglectful person.
-Actually, there is a space between 'Lord' and 'Karsus', hence my name being 'Lord Karsus', and not 'LordKarsus'.
Tell that to someone who cares.
Besides, when you act in an infamous manner, you 're always going to get the "bad" tag - or a similar paronyme.
And, when have I not told you what I think about you?
You never did.
You just talk behind my back with infamous notes about myself.
That is called "infamous conduct".
That is what cowards do.
-Again, please cite your reference? When did I "trush talk" you? I merely informed SixXx to not wait on the information he was waiting for you to provide him, based on past experiences I have had with you, concerning providing cited sources.
Truly, you first throw a stone and then you hide your hand.
Now that's acting like a big coward.
Check your posts on this thread: #73,65 and 63.
When others talk about you in such a manner and you don't get offended, well, that's your concern. As far as I'm concerned, next time you have something to say about me, come and say it in my face. Stop acting like a chicken by saying: "No,I merely informed SixXx to not wait on the information he was waiting for you to provide him"...
-Yes, yes, I remember. And, your point is...?
Duh...
My point is that you have a wrong caitiff behavior.
Couldn't you tell?
I guess not.
-I have nothing personal against you (as of now).
Oh, now that's why you keep avoiding to confront me in a private message.
Yes, it's all clear now.
I do dislike you to a degree, but that is because you so often babble about things that you have no clue about, that seems like 100% pure conjecture.
Strange.
I was going to say the same things about you. You say I don't provide evidence about what I say yet when you try to negate the things I say you don't provide any evidence at all yourself.
If GothicDan started doing that, I would start getting angry at him.
YOU???
Getting angry at someone?
And what would you next? Talk bad about him behind his back???
Seriously.
You think that you somehow own this boards? You think that you're free to go on and insult people when they speak without having 100% absolutely concrete facts? Many do so inside a discussion. Not everyone has a link to some site to prove everything they say. The vast majority of times, when someone states something does so by relying solely to his memory.
Does that give you the access to go on and "get angry" (:rofl
at him, as you say?Really,you 've talked about how people here respect you. Now that you 're finally presenting us with your real self, I 'm sure that other posters will see what I already noticed about you: there's little to respect.
If you have the time to be here 24/7 (by not going to class or not getting sleep) and post all references you have after having searched the Internet for hours, that's your own concern. Persons have lives you know.
Your threats aren't capable to scare even yourself. Besides, if you want to get angry at me (or even personal) you could just send me a private message and we would determine the details next - like I told you...what? ten times until now?
You 'd just make my day.
If you corrected your behavior, which, at this point, has not happened, then I would not take everything you say with a pinch of salt, and I would not tell others to do the same. Get it?
Wow.
Now you're giving me orders in a threatening way.
I 'm definitely going to follow your advice.
If it means that by doing it I 'll win your sympathy, then I'm all for it.
If you don't like what I say, I don't have any problem with that. If you want to talk bad about me, do it by addressing your posts to me, and not to others - behind my back.
I 'll tell you something: You go and correct your behavior.
I 'm here just to support the Forgotten Realms (my favourite setting) and to share some of my RP material with the rest of the forum. I do not have a problem with anyone else nor am I disrispectful to anybody.
I 've told you that at this point our dispute bears no relevance with what people discuss here. Are you afraid of taking this outside the forum?
You're hiding from a personal confrotation to which I challenged you. It seems that you feel safer to post on this forum about an argument that bears no relevance with the topic and for something that it's clearly a mistake of yours.
Let's see the WizOs going through everything that has happened up to now during our discussions (in this thread and the other one that was locked). Let's see how they will react to your insults about us Europeans, your trash talk about me behind my back and the various generic insults you keep throwing up for no valid reason.
You cower when I tell you to get this outside, but I think that you'll find yourself out sooner than you may think.
Seriously though, a lot of the stuff you're quoting from him isn't offensive, insulting, or threatening in any way. Perhaps there is a language barrier you're trying to overcome, which is fine, and through that misinterpreting some of his responses. Perhaps he could be nicer in his wording, but personally were it directed at me, I'd take no offense to it.
I recommend that BOTH simply drop it, and continue with the thread, or politely bow out of it. From my browsing I get the impression that all that needed to be said, did so early on, and now it has, like most other threads lately, degenerated into a lot of nothing and member to member bickering.
For me now, this gets annoying (Granted i'll rub someones mistakes in their face from time to time, or argue points/ opposing intellect with certain members) and frankly i'd like to see more threads remain as they began, and once the quiet sets in, they get closed. Hint Hint, nudge nudge Wizos ;)
1) Over-moderation, which drove me from the last forum I was a regular on. It got to the point where you were only allowed to say nice things to each other - and the forum was for art critism! (you rated aech other's work). The whole thing became rather pointless.
2) It shuts down - This is what happened to the forums over at Games Workshop. Every thread lead to an argument and bashing, and GW decided to just pull the plug on it's forums. Do you want that to happen? They are a game company as big as WotC (not Hasbro), with a large following from the local Games Stores. Sound familiar?
Sit back and chill, everyone has something to contribute, it's all good.
Look under the voice for the 2007 products line for D&D core:
2007 core D&D products
I think that the final product (when it comes out) will definitely bear the REALMS logo.
That's just another nail in Eberron's coffin.
Firstly with the expendition serise I think they are using their own artwork and theme so that you instantly know that this is an Expedition (Old adventure made new.) If you read the different summeries they talk about the Expedition serise so I think that it's going to be relieased under that artwork. Secondly whats with that kind of talk "another nail in Eberron's coffin." Eberron is doing just fine, and it's another setting to game in what is with this horribly bitter anamosity? It makes no since this bloody conflict between the Realms and Eberron. Can't we all just get along?
Yet you do so in a missinforming way and by throwing trash talk at me in an indirect manner.
-Again, cite what you are talking about. Give everyone *one* example of this being done.
I told you many times before that I don't have time to reply to everyone, let alone when I have to respond to 5 posters simultaneously.
-And? Everyone else does it...I find it a little funny, though, that you had the time to respond to my posts, but you didn't have the time to reply to Dark Wizard's posts, which challenged nearly all of the "information" you quoted without citing.
When others talk about you in such a manner and you don't get offended, well, that's your concern. As far as I'm concerned, next time you have something to say about me, come and say it in my face. Stop acting like a chicken by saying: "No,I merely informed SixXx to not wait on the information he was waiting for you to provide him"...
-You are starting to lose me. So, posting something on a public messageboard, that everyone can read (including you) is considered doing something behind your back? I'm not sure how to follow that logic.
You think that you're free to go on and insult people when they speak without having 100% absolutely concrete facts? Many do so inside a discussion. Not everyone has a link to some site to prove everything they say. The vast majority of times, when someone states something does so by relying solely to his memory.
Does that give you the access to go on and "get angry" (:rofl
-What they are claiming things that are obviously not true, or have already been disproven, then yes.
Really,you 've talked about how people here respect you. Now that you 're finally presenting us with your real self, I 'm sure that other posters will see what I already noticed about you: there's little to respect.
-And, you notice how everyone is rallying to your side, eh?
Your threats aren't capable to scare even yourself.
Now you're giving me orders in a threatening way.
-Please, cite your reference. When did I "threaten you"?
I do not have a problem with anyone else nor am I disrispectful to anybody.
-In this thread, and in that other Maztica thread, there were many posts where you were quite disrespectful to numerous individuals:
To DW: "If you are still unable to draw a conclusion and shape your opinion from these facts, then I guess you should sharpen your perception skills."
To DW: "From my experience I can say that some clear points out of those forum can actually be fished, and you would too if you read them with more attention."
To LK: "You showed (once again) you don't comprehend what I write."
To DW: "Don't get offended so easily..."
To DW: "If you can't comprehend what I like then it's clearly not my problem."
To Stigger: "You should wait for your turn next time so we can clarify things better when coresponding. Is that clear?"
To Dex Blacktyde: "I wouldn't expect anything else from a person with your brain."
To 1/2: “This thread need not continue. It's time wasting for everyone.”
To MT: “Markus, you should read more carefully other persons' posts…”
To SixXx: “You are misinformed.”
To John K: “Man are you capable of misreading.”
-I could go on, but I'm not.
-Anyway, in conclusion, I am not going to continue all of this off-topic nonsense. I'm going to continue talking about how Eberron is ruining D&D ( :headexplo ;)). If you want to respond to any of my posts, feel free to do so via PM, IM, or E-Mail. If not, don't bother posting, because I'm not listening anymore.
If you want a flame war, PM each other or get mad at WOTC for nuking Dungeon and Dragon.
If you aren't going to discuss the topic of the OP, then stop posting here.
-Like I just said, I'm ready to continue talking about how Eberron is ruining D&D (:headexplo ;)), which is more or less what the topic is.
As much as I loved Greyhawk it's dead in the water, and no amount of resussitaion is gonna bring it back.
Not a big Greyhawk fan, but I'd prefer to see more than a token effort to bring it back before pronouncing it dead. It seems like even Ravenloft and Dragonlance has gotten more support than Greyhawk in recent years. Not to knock Ravenloft or Dragonlance, but Greyhawk used to be a lot bigger.
Not a big Greyhawk fan, but I'd prefer to see more than a token effort to bring it back before pronouncing it dead. It seems like even Ravenloft and Dragonlance has gotten more support than Greyhawk in recent years. Not to knock Ravenloft or Dragonlance, but Greyhawk used to be a lot bigger.
-Isn't every "Core" product technically a Greyhawk product? I mean, the DMG references Castle Greyhawk, or the Free City of Greyhawk a few times. Though I am not familiar at all with the setting (asides for the notion that "everything goes"), I think it would be a little pequliar that Castle Greyhawk and the Free City of Greyhawk not be in the Greyhawk setting, you know?
It's not really Greyhawk in the sense of Greyhawk as a campaign setting, as much as it juse uses Greyhawk names and such for ease of description.
-If it looks like Greyhawk, acts like Greyhawk, and smells like Greyhawk, shouldn't it be Greyhawk?
-Ironically, at work, I saw a gray hawk today. It was more of a brown/white color, but close enough, I say.
They basically NUKED the entire setting with a mega-WSE called the Greyhawk wars (like a world war, but scarier because of the magic and demons). Every nation was involved, and for the most part it only ended because the evil guys nearly ran into eviler guys. They decided to let a couple of 'good' nations survive, just as a sort-of buffer zone between two evil empires. They basically turned it into the World of Darkness. It was... 'interesting', but it no longer had that tongue-in-cheek light-hearted Greyhawk feel after that. They made it all 'gritty'.
Not that I don't enjoy that sort of 'dark' campaign, but not in MY Greyhawk. I just took my campaign out back and shot it, to put it out of it's misery.
Sorry if I seem to have gone off-topic, but to me it IS the same topic, I just feel like history is repeating itself (especially with the demise of Dragon). I've lived through it before, and see all the warning signs.
Just hope that someday LK that 'waterdeep' isn't just some vague reference in the DMG.
Where do you get your sales figures, and for what part of which country? I spoke with a gaming book distributor who deals to stores all along the east coast USA, and he says the Eberron gaming books vastly outsell the FR gaming books. The reason, he supposes, is because "it's newer and shinier"...
I run a gaming shoppe and Eberron and FR sell just about the same with Eberron just barely squeeking AHEAD of the Realms and I am a Realms fan. People just aren't excited about new Realms products anymore and I see more and more Greyhawk fans pop up every month.
The setting wasn't created by some brain-storming contest winner, and I see from another thread that they are already changing 'canon' material. Stormreach was probably the biggest mistake WotC ever made, considering the incredibly popularity of the Baldur's gate/Neverwinter Nights games. The Forgotten Realms Online would have given World of Warcraft a run for it's money, but Stormreach is merely an 'also-ran'.
Actually it's not because they chose to set DDO: Stormreach in Eberron, it's because Wizards gave their licence out to Turbine. IMHO, Turbine dropped the ball for a number of reasons which I won't go into here (since it is way off topic)... Needless to say, if NCSoft, Sony, or Blizzard got their hands on the licence, Stormreach would be a completely different beastie.
I should also mention that post-Baldur's Gate II: TOB, Bioware has also lost the knack of making Dungeons and Dragons based games. While I did love NWN, the main storyline had so many holes in the plot it wasn't funny (anyone with a 5 minute flick through the FRCS could poke holes in the plot, IMHO, without even trying very hard)... And then they passed the ball onto Obsidian.
I have been singularly unimpressed with NWN2, but mostly that is because I'm having issues with my computer... I was also struck by one of the lead developers disdain for a particular element of BG2 and NWN that had always been popular - romance. Love it or hate it, the romances are a pretty major reason why BG2 continues to be so popular right to this very day (people are still modifying the Infinity Engine), and why NWN had such a broad appeal. But no, Obsidian neglected them, and as such both KOTOR2 and NWN2 are lackluster.
In any event, I would probably be deeply disappointed by any MMO based on the Forgotten Realms - unless they hired the entire design/development team away from WotC, and had Ed Greenwood there as a consultant. Otherwise, we get the same problem as NWN - a lack of adherance to the game world canon.
The war and post war Greyhawk is good. It was sadly not too unlogical, considering that greyhawk was always darker than FR...
I never found it dark, more like whimsical. FR might have a crazy uber-mage (Halaster), but GH had an insane god (Zagyg?), who liked to build fun-houses (dungeons) with captive demi-gods in them. Plus that whole 'space-ship' adventure was kinda comical. I guess different people saw it different, but I ran mine like a scene out of the Xanth novels, with one BAD pun after another. :D
For me personally though, I'm just waiting until they start publishing Realms products again, rather than the adventures. Never been one to buy those in the first place, so its just this big dead period for a while, at least as far as the Realms is concerned, that lets me catch up on a few other books at least. At least we're getting the Grand History this year, on the bright side. :D
Maybe I should take a peak at them now, since the price has dropped tremendously and I can get the whole shmeal for the price of just one game. :D
I did use some of the lore from the games when placing Drow cities for my Dark Elven Regions article; I hope that wasn't a mistake.
I just took my campaign out back and shot it, to put it out of it's misery.
-I'm sorry for your loss...
Never played any of the D&D computer games, oddly enough.Pretty strange since I am also a huge video/computer game junkie. I guess I was afraid of further let-down.
Maybe I should take a peak at them now, since the price has dropped tremendously and I can't the whole shmeal for the price of just one game. :D
-You really should. For $19.99, you can probably get Never Winter Nights, plus all of the expansions. Go to Best Buy, or something similar. The Icewind Dale series was fun also. Basically, NWN is "one PC", while ID is "one to six PCs".
Hated IWD for some reason... think it was the lack of party interaction that I loved so much in the BG series. NWN wasn't bad at first, but the more I thought about it, the less I liked it, on the whole.
-I've never played BG, and/or BGII, so I wound't know. I actually preferred IWDII (The one I played) to NWN, because of the fact that I could create a well-balanced party. In NWN, unless you recruit a hireling (something I never did), you're all alone. In IWDII, you can always single out the character you need to do something (Rogue checks for traps, Cleric heals party members, and so on). I agree, though, that there was no character development or interaction. But, that's what happens when you get to create your party members from scratch.
So let's see what we have here:
You didn't even respond to all the things I told you in my last post.
You merely answered to whatever you thought was more convenient for you.
Man are you capable of backing off after ingniting a quarrel, aren't you?
-Instead of going on and on, I'll just make a few points. Beating dead horses isn't fun...
Nor is talking behind someone's back and acting like an infamous coward.
Again, cite what you are talking about. Give everyone *one* example of this being done.
*Three* examples I already provided you with when I say that you talk about me "in a missinforming way and by throwing trash talk in an indirect manner."
Shall I repost them for you?
Check your posts on this thread: #73,65 and 63.
Or, more clearly:
LordKarsus:
-You're gonna be waiting a long time, then, SixXx. Francius usually does not provide concrete facts to back up what he says. But, then again, he said it, and everything Francius says is correct...
You'd be surprised. I don't know off-hand about the existence of said article, but Francius does have the temperment of a camel.
-That's awesome! You caught that! I originally wrote 'stubborn like a mule' (about Francius), but then changed it when I realized that we were talking about the Middle-East.
These lines were in posts that were not even directed at me.
Notice how I didn't mention what you said about us Europeans and how you consequently admitted it was an insult on purpose for no valid reason.
Nicely done.
I find it a little funny, though, that you had the time to respond to my posts, but you didn't have the time to reply to Dark Wizard's posts, which challenged nearly all of the "information" you quoted without citing.
Your posts on that locked thread were insulting and disrespectful.
I couldn't just let you go like that.
It's more important to put someone on his place when he insults you, over discussing about a subject that ultimately does not exist.
I am not even going to tell you the laughs I had when I saw that no matter how many times I challenged you to take our dispute outside and personal, you went on and covered behind your screen and keyboard and you replied to me with nonexistent points. It's more fun than responding to someone over a subject I had already extensively discussed and to questions I had already answered many times before on the thread and just because he joined the discussion later and hadn't read any of the previous posts.
Anyhow, I would be more than happy to go one on one on a subject with him again (or anyone other on this forum, that is), without having temporarily to reply to 4 other posters and a certain coward.
You are starting to lose me.
The question is: where in the world did I happen to find such a subject like you on a forum about my beloved campaign world?
So, posting something on a public messageboard, that everyone can read (including you) is considered doing something behind your back? I'm not sure how to follow that logic.
Actualy, you are not following *any* logic in this case.
You went on and wrote some insulting quotes about my person and you did it when replying to another person's post.
That's "defamation" and infamous behavior by your part, as I told you in my last post.
Funny how you did not take it under consideration.
What they are claiming things that are obviously not true, or have already been disproven, then yes.
Then you also have to take responsibility about this wrong behavior of yours.
Do you realize that you answered "yes" to the question:
You think that you're free to go on and insult people when they speak without having 100% absolutely concrete facts? Does that give you the access to go on and "get angry" at him, as you say?
You're a university student, ain't ya?
And, you notice how everyone is rallying to your side, eh?
I didn't see someone taking your side either.
But then again, none takes the side of an irritating poltroon, eh Karsus? Duh...
Notice what someone said about you:...sure LK likes to pretend to be an Omnipotent bastard...
Please, cite your reference. When did I "threaten you"?
Here:
Form LordKarsus:If you corrected your behavior, which, at this point, has not happened, then I would not take everything you say with a pinch of salt, and I would not tell others to do the same. Get it?
Does the aforementioned phrase not sound like a "..do as I say or else"?
In this thread, and in that other Maztica thread, there were many posts where you were quite disrespectful to numerous individuals:
To DW: "If you are still unable to draw a conclusion and shape your opinion from these facts, then I guess you should sharpen your perception skills."
That was addressed to you and not DW.
To DW: "From my experience I can say that some clear points out of those forum can actually be fished, and you would too if you read them with more attention."
Not an insult. Just an invitation to be more focusing.
To LK: "You showed (once again) you don't comprehend what I write."
And that's clearly what you did.
Again, not an insult. Just an invitation to be more focusing.
To DW: "If you can't comprehend what I like then it's clearly not my problem."
I never wrote that.
To Stigger: "You should wait for your turn next time so we can clarify things better when coresponding. Is that clear?"
Not an insult. I can't reply simultaneously to 5 posters - nor do I have the time.
To Dex Blacktyde: "I wouldn't expect anything else from a person with your brain."
Read what he said to me before.
To 1/2: “This thread need not continue. It's time wasting for everyone.”
Not an insult at all.
To MT: “Markus, you should read more carefully other persons' posts…”
Not an insult. Just an invitation to be more focusing.
To SixXx: “You are misinformed.”
Not an insult at all. Nor did I meant it in an insulting way. My discussion with Sixxx was actually fun and polite.
To John K: “Man are you capable of misreading.”
He said the exact same thing to me first.
I could go on, but I'm not.
And you shouldn't.
You 're only making fun of yourself. The quotes you threw at me were far more insulting and your infamous behavior even worse, and yet you have the guts to say that the above phrases of mine (and some of them not even being mine) are disrespectful.
Anyway, in conclusion, I am not going to continue all of this off-topic nonsense. I'm going to continue talking about how Eberron is ruining D&D
I do not think that's true, but I do not like the Eberron setting very much too.
Oh well, the Realms are bigger, more detailed and generally better.
If you want to respond to any of my posts, feel free to do so via PM, IM, or E-Mail. If not, don't bother posting, because I'm not listening anymore.
Like it was I the one who started answering your posts or even make insulting remarks about you to other persons.
I never had a problem talking to you before you started with the insults to the Europeans and brought on your defamatory behavior.
But then again, you finally understood it. What you're trying to do here bears no relevance with Realms discussion and just makes you look bad, and since you say you won't read my posts anymore (
:cheer I 've PMed you this message, so feel free to respond.
One does not always need to get the last word... there are more mature ways to handle things. Though really Francius, it looked to me as if most posters were at the least a bit more sympathetic to LK than yourself. You're coming off as very abrasive, and those 'invitations to focus' could have been worded much better, since they really do come off as fairly insulting. Easy to write off as English is not your native tongue, but its something you may consider working on or I suspect you're going to run into this problem more and more frequently.
One does not always need to get the last word... there are more mature ways to handle things. Though really Francius, it looked to me as if most posters were at the least a bit more sympathetic to LK than yourself. You're coming off as very abrasive, and those 'invitations to focus' could have been worded much better, since they really do come off as fairly insulting. Easy to write off as English is not your native tongue, but its something you may consider working on or I suspect you're going to run into this problem more and more frequently.
Thanks for your insight Stigger (and you've sure noticed how I followed your advice before, no?).
I just want to highlight how I never got into a dispute of that level with anybody else on this forum other than LordKarsus.
That does have something to declare, no?
Eitherway, we're taking this outside of the board. Finally.
How 'bout them Mets? :D
Dunno Zandilar, think you're being generous with that 5 minute mark on poking holes... though at least NWN2 does have considerably more respect for canon than NWN1 did. Which is good. Though the way they treated the evil path and romance options was utterly appalling... maybe the expansion will improve on things. One can only hope in that respect. Overall though, I much prefer NWN2... beyond the ick parts of the storylines. At least they avoided the obvious emotional cheapshot this time around.
Generous, hey? Yeah, maybe. ;)
Well as I noted, I've been having computer issues with NWN2 - so I'm kind of waiting until I upgrade my computer before I get stuck back into NWN2. By that time, hopefully someone in the modding community will have finished "hacking" the romances. (Yes, so I can romance the female druid who is the male PC love interest with a female character! :embarrass Last time I checked at the Vault, someone had a gender neutral romance mod up there, but from the comments it seems like it wasn't working properly and breaking other parts of the game.)
In the meantime, I'm playing Dungeon Siege II - and while it's not BG2, it's certianly a lot better than NWN in terms of NPC interactions. ;)
For me personally though, I'm just waiting until they start publishing Realms products again, rather than the adventures. Never been one to buy those in the first place, so its just this big dead period for a while, at least as far as the Realms is concerned, that lets me catch up on a few other books at least. At least we're getting the Grand History this year, on the bright side. :D
I'm wondering about that. The pessimist in me thinks the prevalence of modules coming out is a bad sign for the future of the Realms. Especially since the Super Module Series seems specifically aimed at messing with the Weave. First I hear of the module series, and then I hear of Sacrifice of the Widow and stuff happening to my fave Drow deity, Eilistraee... It can't end well.
Even though the story starts off linear, every decision would lead you down a completely different path.
Are any of the D&D comp games like that, or are they all pretty much linear with no re-play value?
It's actually really easy to hack the romance, what little of it there is. Just go into the conversation files in the seige module for Casavir and Elanee and invert the scripts that trigger them with each other. Should work as those are the only two scripts I can find that have anything to do with it. Never tried it though, but the rest of their dialogues don't have anything to do with romance, and its just one cutscene really. Was poking through them to see what I had missed in the conversations, and was rather disappointed to see that I hadn't missed anything whatsoever. Not sure what the gender neutral script edits could mess up really, beyond a few dialogue pronouns though... can't say I've looked that carefully at it though. Don't recall many gender specific instances ever coming up really, beyond a few flirtations and possibly a dialogue or two playing out oddly, but still likely working.
I think he messed with the PC's gender somehow...
Does NWN2 work the same way as NWN, in that you can't edit the modules unless you've played them all the way through?
As far as the game goes, I think there was less attention paid to the NPCs as a whole than there could have been. I'm a bit hazy on this, but didn't Black Isle and Bioware do BG/BG2, then Black Isle split off to do IWD/IWD2, while Bioware eventually worked on NWN... Then Black Isle went under and some members went on to form Obsidian? That might explain the difference in style, if I'm right. (IWD had player made parties with no party interaction, while the original NWN had some of the same kinds of things as BG2 but not as good, since you could only have one henchmen, and the romance was with a non-party-able NPC.)
Ah well, sometime next month I'll have my new puter, if everything goes well. Then I'll be able to take a closer look. *sigh* (Oh, and thanks (again) Stigger, for the tips. ;))
As to Black Isle, I'm pretty sure they and Bioware worked on BG and possibly IWD, fuzzy on this as I hated the game honestly. As to them forming Obsidian, yeah, partially. Other parts went on to form Troika, which is sadly gone these days. Think a lot of Troikas staff went on to Looking Glass though. Just adored Bloodlines... one of the better games out there IMHO. Not sure about the differences in style though, never looked that carefully into it really. I just know that they all pale in comparison to the BG series still... though NWN2 does come closest to it for me.
No problem with the tips though, I can on occassion be a helpful little bunny when the mood strikes. ;)
How 'bout them Mets? :D
-How' bout them Mets!? Went to the game last night, and it was good.
-The Mets are the Forgotten Realms of Baseball.
The pessimist in me thinks the prevalence of modules coming out is a bad sign for the future of the Realms. Especially since the Super Module Series seems specifically aimed at messing with the Weave. First I hear of the module series, and then I hear of Sacrifice of the Widow and stuff happening to my fave Drow deity, Eilistraee... It can't end well.
-I seem to recall Richard Baker mentioning that the format of Mysteries of the Moonsea was an experiment, and that it would either continue or be phased out, depending on how good it did. Since the new "Super Adventure" format is very similar, I am sure that it's continuation will be based on it's sales. But, who knows what WotC is likely to do at the end of the day?
-The Mets are the Forgotten Realms of Baseball.
Hmmmm... I LOVE both, but I don't know if I would put it THAT way.
To me, the Mets are like the Dark Elves, an oft-maligned group that often seems to fall just short of achieving the ultimate victory.
I always root for the underdog, I think it's some sort of emotional need or something.
As far as the new format goes, I haven't seen it yet, but I hope it's not as bad as folks make it out. I notice that nay-sayers are always very vocal, but content folks never say a word.
Something to bear in mind when reading these, or ANY, boards. ;)
Hmmmm... I LOVE both, but I don't know if I would put it THAT way.
-Sure, sure. The Mets have a team filled with home grown talent. Wright, Reyes, Pelfrey, Smith, Humber (eventually)- all came from the Mets farm system. We know all about them, since they've all been with us since the beginning. And, as Wright and Reyes show us, they work well with each other, and often complement each other. The Yankees, on the other hand, are like Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara. The players on the Yankees (for the most part) have simply been lifted from other teams, and placed on the Yankees, without any regard for complementary abilities, and the like.
To me, the Mets are like the Dark Elves, an oft-maligned group that often seems to fall just short of achieving the ultimate victory.
I always route for the underdog, I think it's some sort of emotional need or something.
-Hey, hey, we're not the underdogs. We own this town...
As far as the new format goes, I haven't seen it yet, but I hope it's not as bad as folks make it out. I notice that nay-sayers are always very vocal, but content folks never say a word.
-I haven't seen either format either (MotM, or the Three-Part Adventure), but as long as they continue making less room for other, more useful sourcebooks, I won't be too content. That's my major problem with the adventures, and I'm sure a lot of other people agree with me.
-Sure, sure. The Mets have a team filled with home grown talent. Wright, Reyes, Pelfrey, Smith, Humber (eventually)- all came from the Mets farm system. We know all about them, since they've all been with us since the beginning. And, as Wright and Reyes show us, they work well with each other, and often complement each other. The Yankees, on the other hand, are like Kara-Tur, Maztica and Zakhara. The players on the Yankees (for the most part) have simply been lifted from other teams, and placed on the Yankees, without any regard for complementary abilities, and the like.
...
-I haven't seen either format either (MotM, or the Three-Part Adventure), but as long as they continue making less room for other, more useful sourcebooks, I won't be too content. That's my major problem with the adventures, and I'm sure a lot of other people agree with me.
Zing!
Maybe a little more regional background and a little less actual adventures (not seeds, those are great), and I would think it's the perfect mix for my style of play.
But to each his own.
-Hey, hey, we're not the underdogs. We own this town...
Remember the highly anticipated subway series?
Remember the four-game shut-out?
I Love 'em too, but let's be realistic....
;) :D
Remember the highly anticipated subway series?
Remember the four-game shut-out?
I Love 'em too, but let's be realistic....
;) :D
-What year are you living in, Mark? :P
-Last season, we took 5 our of 6 games with the Yankees. Last season, we had the best record in Major League Baseball. We have a line-up that can keep up with that of the Yankees, if not be even more productive. We're currently in first place in the division, something the last place Yankees can't say...
Left Cheek: "Hey Right behind!"
Right Cheek: "Yeah, Left Behind?"
Left Cheek: "Who's the butthole between us?"
Now, if the Forgotten Realms is the 'Left Behind', and Greyhawk is the 'Right Behind' (as in "always right behind you"), then I'll give you one guess which setting is the butthole. ;)
Give you a hint, they're all (technically) 'active' settings. :D
-What year are you living in, Mark? :P
-Last season, we took 5 our of 6 games with the Yankees. Last season, we had the best record in Major League Baseball. We have a line-up that can keep up with that of the Yankees, if not be even more productive. We're currently in first place in the division, something the last place Yankees can't say...
The Mets are doing well?!
Shows you how often I watch TV or pick-up a newspaper.
If they are doing well and the Yankes aren't then I have to be a Yankees fan now.
I pride myself on forever being a loser. :P
The Mets are doing well?!
Shows you how often I watch TV or pick-up a newspaper.
If they are doing well and the Yankes aren't then I have to be a Yankees fan now.
I pride myself on forever being a loser. :P
-Well, good luck with that one...
That was the first thing that crossed my mind too before I poked my head in...
-As I still retain some degree of power, even as 1/3 of my former self, I am hereby making an official ruling that, while butt cheek and butt hole jokes are being made, there shall be no talking of "poking heads in", in any manner whatsoever...
That thought had not crossed my mind when I wrote that... must have been more tired than I thought.
And I'd probably invite the lacrosse or rugby team instead. Maybe some of the wrestlers.
Oh my, college wrestlers with cumberbunds. LK, hold my pouch........
:D - Did somebody say Tum was here?......
Oh my, college wrestlers with cumberbunds. LK, hold my pouch........
-I don't like the sound of that, especially since "tums" are being mentioned. But, I guess I'll go along, since you seem so enthusiastic.
Brennon, you would have liked him.
Icky poo-poo cocky yuck!But then again, that's probably how most college girls would feel about me these days....
Hey Dan, I used to be on the wrestling team in HS...
Not that I mean anything by it, but I WAS pretty svelte back then...
Believe me, there is no place you guys could bring me that would shock me. ;)
Markus, I demand pictures of you in your high school days, k?
-And next to them, current photos, to see how the mighty have fallen!
Just keep them where I can't see them...
Somebody's mind is in the gutter. Naughty Stigger.;)
Markus, I demand pictures of you in your high school days, k?
This thread is getting a little... weird...
After posting that, I realize I was remembering things a little off. I was in Track and Wrestling in 7th grade, and Football in 8th. So I only played sports in Jr. High, a little too young to be showing pics.
My family moved across town over the summer when I was 13, so I went to the HS that was my old school's chief rival. Since a lot of the kids there were ones I competed against I didn't bother with sports anymore, and in fact learned to enjoy things like swirlies.
Because it is the way the world works, the only kids willing to be-friend the 'new kid' are the guys in the AV club... and the chess team.
Although my life sucked for four years, I found my 'inner nerd', and realized that I really belonged with the 'geeky' kids.
I have no HS pictures of me, aside from the one in my yearbook. Suffice it to say it was the seventies - I was a big pasty-faced white guy with a three-foot afro. I still shudder just thinking about it.
The best picture I ever took was 12 years ago, and thats they one I have on my Myspace. bear in mind, that I was working out back then, I have since tacked on 100 Lbs!!!
Now I'm a FAT nerd, but at least I'm happy. :P
I have no HS pictures of me, aside from the one in my yearbook. Suffice it to say it was the seventies - I was a big pasty-faced white guy with a three-foot afro. I still shudder just thinking about it.
-Man, I wish I had an afro...
P.S.-I havn't thought of this in quite a while. My mom didn't notice that the yearbook photos were in her kitchen, den, and jacuzzi until I was well into my late 20's. Now add that my senior yearbook editor lives in samesaid childhood home with her 2 kids and hubby. Creepy.
Funny, huh?
Don't even get me started on how many awards I came in second for, including valedictorian.
That being said, throughout my years of high school I was the yearbook editor, negative on the varsity debate team, editor of the literary arts magazine, on the math team, the academic team, in Spanish club, stage crew, TV studio, honors society (missed presidency by a hair!), and in SADD. I also managed to graduate first in class after I decided at the end of 10th grade (after the most traumatic break up of my life) that I wanted to do so.
My only regret is that I hadn't let my mother talk me out of going into football, between 8th and 9th grade. Though, in the long run, I guess I DO need those brain cells for physics.
I think education, like the rest of life, is only as good as what you make of it. Often I think that instead of using the avenues open to them, being patient, and actively taking interest in things, they expect things to simply happen for them which will somehow result in them being happy in the end.
Too true Dan, too true indeed. Personally, my own difficulties with education stem from most of the courses not going in depth enough for my liking, at least in the California educational system, and relying too much on relatively shallow coverage of information and having an intellectually hypocritical flavor to them. Cries of thinking for yourself, followed by criticism and punishment for daring to think outside of the parameters they try set for you... the whole thing struck me as very hollow, and very nearly gave me a nervous breakdown. Was much happier when I started in on my own education and figured out I learned best on my own, using my friends in a informal forum setting for debate and discussion. Worked out much better for me.
One of the most disturbing points of my brief educational career came when being assigned to write some paper on some issue... something for sociology though I don't recall precisely what it was after 15 years or so, but I wrote this complete and utter pile of steaming BS two days before it was due, hadn't read a damned thing on the subject and just made it up as I went along, mostly to avoid not turning anything in at all since I had completely blown off the assignment... a D would have been a better grade than I was expecting, but the professor had a very nasty policy for missed assignments so it was better than nothing. Finally get it back and I got an A on the damned thing... I made the damned thing up and just relied on eloquence to get me through. That just completely blew the whole thing for me, could never take my professors seriously after that.
Which is not to say that for some the educational system doesn't work, since it certainly does for some, but not for everyone. Some thrive in the structured environment, others don't... I find it a pity that the University system can't quite grasp that notion. Well, at least they couldn't when it was an issue for me, never had the inclination to keep up with it since then.
One of the most disturbing points of my brief educational career came when being assigned to write some paper on some issue... something for sociology though I don't recall precisely what it was after 15 years or so, but I wrote this complete and utter pile of steaming BS two days before it was due, hadn't read a damned thing on the subject and just made it up as I went along, mostly to avoid not turning anything in at all since I had completely blown off the assignment... a D would have been a better grade than I was expecting, but the professor had a very nasty policy for missed assignments so it was better than nothing. Finally get it back and I got an A on the damned thing... I made the damned thing up and just relied on eloquence to get me through. That just completely blew the whole thing for me, could never take my professors seriously after that.
Why do you think I didn't end up being a liberal arts major? Seriously, while I love physics, I am abominable at math. (Well, I'm better than just about any 'normal person,' just terrible compared to other physics and math majors.) I can churn out essays of any length, on virtually any topic, with little to no time needed for research. Perhaps it's a result of my rather Renaissance geekery. But all I can do is glare at the people with the 3.9 GPA's and think, "Yeah, if I had been a POLITICS or SOCIOLOGY major I could have pulled that off, too, and actually had time to sleep and eat."
Which is not to say that for some the educational system doesn't work, since it certainly does for some, but not for everyone. Some thrive in the structured environment, others don't... I find it a pity that the University system can't quite grasp that notion. Well, at least they couldn't when it was an issue for me, never had the inclination to keep up with it since then.
All of my experiences at college have been pretty good. It requires two semesters of something called CIE (Common Intellectual Experience), which is basically a discussion-based course on some major writings, philosophies, and events throughout history. It's really a good IDEA, but it falls short when the class demographic is too varied. I was incredibly bored the whole time, and frustrated by people who didn't have as much background knowledge on the topics as I did.
I'm starting to see a pattern here - gamers are not neccessarily nerds, but rather people who felt a certain amount of disatisfaction with the 'expected norms'. If you grow up not feeling like you fit into any of the 'molds' most other kids do, you gravitate toward the freedom of the arts and Roleplay.
Roleplaying is a form of expression, wheather you are getting out your agression, or just living out the dream of being 'someone important'. Even for those of us who don't actively game, the Forgotten Realms provides us an outlet that allows us to control the environment, rather then the other way around.
I need to ask the Gov't for a bazillion dollar grant - I think I have just come up with another of those 'useless studies'.
Perhaps if more kids found companionship and freedom of expression through gaming maybe we'd have less eating disorders and less school shootings.
Who'd have though - D&D promotes good mental health.
I can't say I blame you there Dan, it is appalling... I just don't care enough for hard sciences in general for that route to have worked for me.
Perhaps if more kids found companionship and freedom of expression through gaming maybe we'd have less eating disorders and less school shootings.
Nah.
I still eat disorderly and want to kill people sometimes, and there's an insane number of roleplayers on my campus - dozens of them, many of which are in my fraternity.
I will subscribe to this thread.
Not only do I love these FR-based "Eberron is ruining D&D" tirades, but it is simply amazing to note the number of ways (on purpose or otherwise) that you can misspell "Eberron" in one thread.
This will make for very humorous reading for the rest of the week, I think.
Note - it's also very much based on older classic settings, especially Greyhawkers.
Don't complain about FR grognards if you never saw the GH ones peeps, they make us look like futile youn' uns.
*elven High Magic Ritual Of Playful Revenge!*
:: Dies ::
Note - it's also very much based on older classic settings, especially Greyhawkers.
Don't complain about FR grognards if you never saw the GH ones peeps, they make us look like futile youn' uns.
Well, we're gonna cut you some slack. You're still practicing, after all. ;)
On a side note, I'm sorry for being rational for a moment, this thread is NO PLACE for grown-ups. :P
You big stupid cocky faces!
....
...
...
Bad bad Dan. ;)
*Gift of Life*--
Bad bad Dan. ;)
Is that anything like "Drops of Jupiter"?
Is that anything like "Drops of Jupiter"?
Elven High Magic is of no concern to Ghour Demons.:P
Elven High Magic is of no concern to Ghour Demons.:P
If the powers that be ever got off their duffs and actually posted those NEW AVATARS so many of us worked on, I would no longer be a Ghour Demon.
I have a nice one all picked out, although now I'm thinking of using the picture of Aumvor the Undying as my avatar - he looks JUST like me. ;)
Ain't I cutey? :D
In case they want to add this one too
He's been dieting for the last year, and he's down to a svelte 600 Lbs. ;)
The scales at weightwatchers are finally able to 'read' him.
Damn.
-You can't get rid of me that easily! And anyway, you'd miss me...
I hate Eberron. That is all.
-Just wondering...Have you ever tried it?
Don't like it much myself really... some interesting stuff in there, but overall I find the setting very disturbing. Those graft things in particular make my skin crawl...
They're supposed to. ;)
Point... I guess... still icky though...
I do like their take on each of the demi-human races though, along with most of the humanoids. I picture Eberron being what Faerûn could look like 500 years into the future, as far as magic-tech goes.
Not automatically considering other sentient species 'monsters' is a big step in the right direction.
IDk I think the main reason is because instead of all this Ebberon stuff we could be getting more books on forgotten realms, or books on greyhawk or dragonlance.
Yes I have triedit and even played the online game for a month. If it wasn't for it being a online D&D game I wouldn't of touched that game.
DDO is a pretty awful game, it doesn't really matter where it's set. Saying you don't like Eberron because of that is similar to a claim that you don't like the Realms because NWN wasn't much fun when it first came out.
IDk I think the main reason is because instead of all this Ebberon stuff we could be getting more books on forgotten realms, or books on greyhawk or dragonlance.
Wizards couldn't publish DL material because the licence is/was held by another company. Last time there was a serious attempt to revive Greyhawk they made changes
which upset a lot of the veteran players - the arguments about the Greyhawk Wars were at least as divisive as those over the Time of Troubles. As for more FR material, the economic argument is simple enough. People who won't buy the Realms aren't going to buy anything produced for it unless there are big changes in the setting. Making those changes will alienate a lot of existing fans. Eberron may attract some of the people who won't buy FR material, so lets give it a try. Of course, that's my idea of the reasoning behind the decision.
Saying you don't like Eberron because of that is similar to a claim that you don't like the Realms because NWN wasn't much fun when it first came out.
-Hey, I thought that NWN was fun when I first got it. Albeit, I got it like a year or two ago, but still...
-Hey, I thought that NWN was fun when I first got it. Albeit, I got it like a year or two ago, but still...
Early on it wasn't as good as it is now. Now there's years worth of patches, gameplay sites, modding material. Then... lets just say that it's much improved
DDO is a pretty awful game, it doesn't really matter where it's set. Saying you don't like Eberron because of that is similar to a claim that you don't like the Realms because NWN wasn't much fun when it first came out.
Wizards couldn't publish DL material because the licence is/was held by another company. Last time there was a serious attempt to revive Greyhawk they made changes
As for more FR material, the economic argument is simple enough. People who won't buy the Realms aren't going to buy anything produced for it unless there are big changes in the setting. Making those changes will alienate a lot of existing fans. Eberron may attract some of the people who won't buy FR material, so lets give it a try. Of course, that's my idea of the reasoning behind the decision.
Oh, recently Margaret Weis Productions' liscence on DL explired and wizards has control over it again. Just thought you should know.
They are focusing on Eberron because they want to expand the amount of errata out there and as a new setting, it dosen't quite have the fanbase that more established settings like FR have. Personally I think Eberron is like something that came out of the mad imagination of a Tinker Gnome but hey.
FR has not been abandoned, just held off for the time.
They are focusing on Eberron because they want to expand the amount of errata out there and as a new setting, it dosen't quite have the fanbase that more established settings like FR have. Personally I think Eberron is like something that came out of the mad imagination of a Tinker Gnome but hey.
I'm sorry, but that was TOO funny to pass up.
At first I was going to correct you, and say "don't you mean 'material', not 'errata'".
But then I thought "Nah, he's got it right..." :D
I'm sorry, but that was TOO funny to pass up.
At first I was going to correct you, and say "don't you mean 'material', not 'errata'".
But then I though "Nah, he's got it right..." :D
Lol, my mistake, I mean material :embarrass
-I don't agree. I don't think that the Realms will be the default setting, but I do think that because of the popularity of the Realms, and other settings, the "Default D&D" idea is slowly being phased out. Look at how many Core D&D products have "In the Realms...", or "In Eberron" sidebars.
-Looks like I got that one...
-Yeah, so...Who wishes the Forgotten Realms HAD been left behind, at this point?
I guess I do.
That travesty they are throwing together has nothing to do with the Realms we know. They just decided to use the name 'Forgotten Realms' for their new 4e setting, thats all.
The 1e/2e/3e FR we know will no longer be developed for, leaving us, the fans, to develop it in any way we see fit.
In the long run, they did us a favor... and left us behind. ;)
I would have preferred the full use of the Final Fantasy approach actually. More or less a clean break between each game. You know some elements (summons, chocobos, Cid) and themes (save the world) will make it back, often with some major adaptation, but each world is entirely different (history, magic system, rules, characters, antagonists).
When they come across a particularly popular version (FF7), they can throw a bit of support for it now and again in the form of games and other bits outside the main line (Dirge of Cerberus, Advent Children, etc.).
Look at Final Fantasy though, they have no problem maintaining an audience even if each game has a different setting (more or less). It's cleaner, clearer and, from a business standpoint, virtually perpetual as long as the designers are competent.
When they come across a particularly popular version (FF7), they can throw a bit of support for it now and again in the form of games and other bits outside the main line (Dirge of Cerberus, Advent Children, etc.).
-I was, and still am, 100% against this. It breaks the mantra of the Final Fantasy series. You get 1 game, and that's it. X-2, the first "sequel" was a travesty. And, the game was bad, too. Dirge of Cerebus, and Advent Children both sucked, as well.
And sadly, its almost always true. How often are sequels to anything as good? I thought the second three star Wars movies sucked.
And sadly, its almost always true. How often are sequels to anything as good?
-The second X-Men movie was better than the first.
I stayed away from X-2, it just felt bad. I don't like the sequel concept either, especially since it took the place of a regular mainline FF game. I didn't care much for the MMO FFXI either. I felt that was a waste of a "number." They could have easily just called it FF Online.
There are some sequals that are etter, but most are made just to cash in on the success of the first.
You know, like creating a 4th edition when there's almost nothing wrong with 3e... nothing that can't be easily fixed anyway.
Anyway, nothing will ever be as good for me as Zelda: A Link to the Past, video game-wise, at least.
Secret of Mana came close... DAMN close... :D
Secret of Mana came close... DAMN close... :D
-That is right. Secret of Mana is a sequel...What a damn good game...
SoM, or FF?
3rd one what?
-The third game in the series. It was never released in the U.S., but can easily be found via ROM. It's a Japanese title (of course), and is known as Seiken Densetsu 3, or something to that effect.