I followed your very interesting conversation about Cyric and seing your deep lore, i would like to submitt some question to you :
- do we know anything how Orcus and Demogogon turned to become demon princes in the realm background ?
- is it known why Arausheen turned into Lolth (i mean the reason) ?
- Does Lolth has a Dridder exarc (or any lesser deity obeying to her) ?
- I know very few of asmode in the realm. In PoL he was an angel who killed his god (in short) but in the realms ? It appear that he was a god, then lost godness (how ?) and regain it from devoring Azuth's essence. Was he a rightfull god at the begining or did he "won" divinity a first time ?
- it is said that by being a god again, Asmode send back the abyss in the plan beyong. does it means that, like in PoL, the abyss started in the elemental chaos ? how did they manage to get close to the nine hell during the blood war ?
- what is the official explanation about the creation of the abyss
- do we know how the blood war started ?
Those question are related to the background of the campaign i'am currently dming in 4E. I'm mixing realms and PoL element i like. but as long as the truth is known officially i would like to know it to decide if i keep my version or the official one.
Of course i understant that what i'm asking is subjected to huge debate so i just want to know what is official. Of course if there is alternate explanation wildly accepted, i'm also interested. No need to post what is contained into 4E books, i already read them 8)
Thanks
- do we know anything how Orcus and Demogogon turned to become demon princes in the realm background
As far as I'm aware, they were always treated that way as far as the Realms is concerned. I'm not aware of any time in the history of the Realms when they weren't. Which essentially boils down to most tales of their ascension being apocryphal, full of half-truths at best, and downright fiction most of the time. As we all know, demons aren't known for their cleaving to honesty.
- is it known why Arausheen turned into Lolth (i mean the reason) ?
Yep, it happened after she rebelled against (her husband) Corellon's rule over the Seldarine and attempted to stage a coup with some very evil sorts of allies (Gruumsh being one of them). Once she and her allies were defeated, she was declared Tanar'ri and stripped of her divinity by Corellon and cast down to the Abyss. Obviously at some point she regained her divinity, but there's some debate as to exactly when that occured within the timeline of the Realms. About all we know for certain is that it was before the Crown Wars.
- Does Lolth has a Dridder exarc (or any lesser deity obeying to her) ?
Speaking purely from a 2e perspective, driders were what happened when you failed Llolth in some capacity and got turned into a monster for your troubles. Given that, it would be unlikely she'd elevate any to exarch or lesser divine status. Having said that, I never paid much attention to them in 3e, much less 4e, so that may have changed, I couldn't say with any certainty.
- The pair of Asmodeus questions -
Haven't a clue unfortunately, but I can't recall any mentions of him specifically in the Realms in all the time I've been reading it. As to his history as a fallen celestial... again, he's so old that most tales are going to be apocryphal at best. He's probably the only one who knows the actual answer, and its unlikely he'd tell mere mortals lest it be used to find some weakness one could use against him.
- what is the official explanation about the creation of the abyss?
As far as I'm aware, it always was, and that's about all that anyone really knows. Something you have to keep in mind is that the cosmologies of the Planes are from a mortal perspective, and its subject to interpretation by the one making it, and the ones thinking of it. They're whatever the viewer wants them to be... Great Wheel, Great Tree, Swirling Galaxy, a hallway full of doors... they're all true, and they're all false. Certainly that's a little paradoxical, at least from a mortal perspective, but that's thinking from a Prime Material perspective, not a Planar one.
At best, anything said about the creation of any plane is going to be a guess, an unproveable theory, or just plain made up fancy, if not outright lie. The simple answer is that no one really has a clue, except for the one who made them (which translates to whatever the DM says about it).
- do we know how the blood war started ?
Again, lots of theories, little proof that any of them are actually true. Some say its always been raging because of the fundamental differences between the way demons and devils see creation. Some say its to decide who's brand of evil gets to be ascendent. Some would probably point to treachery on one side or another... I'd suspect the truth is that no one really has a clue, since its unlikely anyone is still alive from back when it started (yes, even the demon lords and the like), and certainly no mortal has even the slightest clue. As far as I know, no one knew the Blood War even raged until (I think it was) Mordenkainen scryed in on something and learned of it, kinda by accident. But that was Greyhawk. But we also know him and El were buddies, so... That's one version of it anyway. I'm sure there are others.
If you can find a copy, I'd highly recommend Faces of Evil: the Fiends, for 2e's Planescape. It gives you a definite sense that mortals really don't know much about the various planar races, and that a lot of what they know is conjecture at best. A lot of these entities measure their lives in centuries, if not millenia, or more... most of the common races probably weren't even sapient species when these things were fighting the Blood War and the like.
I know you're looking for official answers, but when it comes to deep cosmology and such, that it was ultimately up to the DM was kind of the official answer a lot of times (I'd guess so as to not make the religious types overly uncomfortable and to have room to include monotheistic themes in if they so chose to). Hope that helps some.
Those question are related to the background of the campaign i'am currently dming in 4E. I'm mixing realms and PoL element i like. but as long as the truth is known officially i would like to know it to decide if i keep my version or the official one.
If you're mixing in POL stuff make sure you read the Plane Above. Aside from being an excellent book it details Asmodeous a bit more and you can make judgements on how to integrate it. I actually really like a lot of the PoL planar stuff more than I thought I would, so I've actually integrated quite a lot of it into FR. Given that mortals really shouldn't have much of a clue what is happening in the planes anyway it can fit really well.
Unfortunately expecting realms specific lore on Plane Above/Plane Below isn't going to happen most likely. These books though are designed precisely for stealing for any setting, it's their actual intent afterall, so you shouldn't be afraid to grab whatever you please from them where answers aren't clear from FR sources.
Edit: Lolth is statted in Monster Manual 3 and I believe her exarch is a Drow Priestess.
IIRC Sevarltam(sp) manifested as a male many armed Drider...
Stigger, i retain from you some information but also that as far as the truth seems not to be known officially, any explanation would fit...
About Orcus, the Plane Below tell us that he was "a noble elementar corrupt by the abyss" (btw, how are called the elementar ennemy of the gods during the War of Dawn in english ?)
Aegeri, i have read the plane above and found it also very interesting, that why i want to mix PoL and FR because FR is sometimes lacking of explanation (even if we add the background from previous edition/novel etc...).
About the exarc of Lolth (or any lesser drow deity obeying to her) i thought i saw something about a dridder, the first one of the race...
during the War of Dawn (who i assumed occure in the same way in PoL and FR) Tharizun became the god of madness and plant the seed of Evil into the plan beyong to create the Abyss. He was defated and chained or most pricisely only his powers and memory were locked into a stone (i have not decided yet if it was a stone or something else, no matter). His soul escaped taking the form of a monkey during the battle and falled into the abyss. Finaly, this soul turned to become Demogorgon one of his head beeing Tharizun without any memory of his previous life (but a huge ambition and evil in the soul) and the other any greater demon that was here at the moment when the monkey fall into a lay.
Arausheen had another son than Vhaeraun (Alkor, one of my PC in fact) who fought in the abyss against Tharizun and catch some corruption which would led him to mutate into an ugly creature. Arausheen seeing that enter the abyss herself to find a solution. By using an abyssal spider which seem to resist the corruption, she tried to cure him , Infortunatly, it was exchanging one fate for another (as elven godess of fate she have seen that the fate of her son was to mutate, but did'nt expect that she could bring him to his new form) and his son would become an half spider and renamed himslef Dridder. During her trip, she was caugth herself by the spiritual corruption and , added with the fact that her beloved son was going to become evil and violent. This corruption slowly turned her into betraying Correlon and finaly become Lolth, as in the canon. Her son ultimatly became the first dridder and one of his exarc
Orcus was a noble elemental ("originel" in english ?) of light that fought side with the gods against Tharizun. Tharinzun almost killed him and make him fall into the abyss where the corruption entering his wound changed him into the well know demon-prince
Asmode was an exarc of some good divinity during the war and fought also against Tharizun. The death of most of his comrade during the battle as well as the corruption of the place, maked him more violent. After some particular horrible massacre during the War of Dawn, his god rejected him. With some of his fidel warrior he attacked his god, killed him and stole his divine essence. Because of the death of his comerade when he was an angel, he has a personnal hatred against the abyss, that is why is started the blood war.
during the modern times, Cyric killed Mystra. He was trapped by gods into a dominion which appear to be the former dominion of Tharizun then he got connection with Tharizun soul and finaly identifying him. The former god of madness (now prince demon of madeness) and the actual one started to plan for the multivers ultimate destriction by being swallowed by the Abyss but their first move must to free Cyric and find back the powers and memories of Tharizun. Let's the campaign begin !
here is a point i'd like to discuss :
i have read that before Asmode get back his divinity by devoring Azuth essence, the Abyss were close to the nine hell (since, Asmode send them to the elemental chaos). I'd like the description of Abyss in the chaos since their creation but don't want to clash with the canon which is that the Blood war was very intens because the two plans were close. So what could be a good explanation about this "come and back" of the Abyss. I suggest something like "as a young god Asmode use his powers to bring the chaos close to his army in order to detroying it as fast as possible but the task was harder than expected. Asmode loose its divinity (why ?) or had used too much of his power in pulling the abyss to send them back. After devouring Azuth he fulled his powers (and and millenia to collect enough souls) so send back the abyss in the chaos" What about that ?
any constructive comment/suggestion about this background would be apprieciate
here is a point i'd like to discuss :
i have read that before Asmode get back his divinity by devoring Azuth essence, the Abyss were close to the nine hell (since, Asmode send them to the elemental chaos). I'd like the description of Abyss in the chaos since their creation but don't want to clash with the canon which is that the Blood war was very intens because the two plans were close. So what could be a good explanation about this "come and back" of the Abyss. I suggest something like "as a young god Asmode use his powers to bring the chaos close to his army in order to detroying it as fast as possible but the task was harder than expected. Asmode loose its divinity (why ?) or had used too much of his power in pulling the abyss to send them back. After devouring Azuth he fulled his powers (and and millenia to collect enough souls) so send back the abyss in the chaos" What about that ?
any constructive comment/suggestion about this background would be apprieciate
First I would like to say the basis for your story is very good and interesting.
Now in the old lore that has to do with the Blood War. The abyss and the Nine Hells were separated by three planes on the former great wheel cosomolgy. Alot of the battle between the two force actualy took place on the plane between them. There was no bringing the Abyss closer, not even the gods had the power to move planes. So I really don't see how it could work with the old cannon.
I think the way Asmodeus did it was that the death Mystra shattered the Great Wheel...which made the Abyss vulnerable to being thrown into the Chaos.
Anyway I hope that helps.
which made the Abyss vulnerable to being thrown into the Chaos.
Sounds redundant.
Well yeah...but I did not want to go off on how the old days made sense rant again.
I actually have a lot of the PoL cosmology in my FR campaign because a lot of it is more logical and plain better than FRs. Especially when I can slowly write out the gods in FR being complete idiots at the same time.
goldomark, sorry, i don't catch the subtility here (perhaps because english is not my mother tongue or because i miss the cultural reference). Can you enlight me (anyway, i won't take it as an "attack", too high defences against attack with "joke" keyword
)I actually completely ignore the plane related nonsense in the FRCG and just use the cosmology as it is. Given the existence of portals and that the Styx still flows through both the Nine Hells and the Abyss it is irrelevant how much distance is between the two planes. They can still fight one another consistently throughout it.
well, the distance between the two planes are not a key point of my background, so i guess it doesn't matter were the abyss were created. It should be a little bit more complicated to explain that Tharzindun plant the seed of Evil in the middle of the Astral sea but nothing impossible here (my PC have already played the part during the war of Dawn but, as they arrive in the Abyss through a portal, they don't know where the abyss is located exactly. The meeting with an elemental army, headed by Orcus-before-being-corrupted could also be explained by portal to the Abyss in Elermental chaos). As Asmode is supposed to have sent the Abyss in the elemental chaos in modern time, everything is right for me
Any other comment/suggestions ?
how about leting Cyric join Demogorgon (after escaping from the supreme throne thank to foolish PC who belived they could kill a god like that) and being the second head of this creature (Tharinzun remained the first one) for an demonic final against PC wanting to prevent the destruction of the multivers by two gods of madness ?
Personally I wouldn't want to ruin something as awesome as Demogorgon with anything to do with Cyric :P
About the seed of Abyss and Tharzindun, it is in the MM1, at the demon section, as well as in the manual of the plane, i think
about Cyric and Demogorgon, i feel that a demon prince of madness, a former god of madness and a new god of madness are too much madness in this world (i consider also to use the far realm, a which level i don't know but it would be very interesting to see it as the original corrupter of Tharinzun and thus a possible outcome for another campaign). So making a fusion of all of them in one body, would be nice. Of course nobody sais that the two head (Cyric and Tharinzun) would agree about everything and it should be possible for the PC to take advantage of it (first in political plot and then in the final ecounter). But this would be at the end of the campaign so for most of the time Cyric and Demogorgon/Tharinzun will be different thing.
two word about Tyr :
- he lost his hand against the hound of chaos (i don't remember the name but if i'm correct, it is the same creature that Mask has trapped again by trickery in "the prince of lies" novel). How does this happen ? (date and circumstances)
- i have read that between the 3.5 and the 4E he as killed Helm in a duel for Tymora's love (in summary) then i died by fighting a huge demon attack. What more is known about this ?
Tyr interested me because i made him one of the gods that defeat Tharinzun. (sorry, i know that in the canon, he is supposed to arrived far later, after leaving his plane where his followers were less and les numberous but i don't like this "shift from real pantheon", i like D&D because it is a game of fantasy with echo from our world, taking gods as it and just shifting them into the realm is not of my taste)
In the core world Sharns are basically the remnants of a universe that was obliterated by Tharzindun and are more or less horrors left over from it. Sometimes they break into the real world in search of magical artifacts or other things. What attracted me to them as a concept was that Sharns were the last of their civilization and entire universe, so every time you destroyed a sharn you permanently destroyed a piece of that place. It gave them a slightly tragic element other than just being aberrant horrors and made me like them even more.
I didn't do anything else with Tharzindun though in my campaign. Sort of forgot about him and just left that hanging about. I also considered just making it a different god than Tharzindun, but the only one that really fit was Shar and she already does everything anyway.
two word about Tyr :
- he lost his hand against the hound of chaos (i don't remember the name but if i'm correct, it is the same creature that Mask has trapped again by trickery in "the prince of lies" novel). How does this happen ? (date and circumstances)
- i have read that between the 3.5 and the 4E he as killed Helm in a duel for Tymora's love (in summary) then i died by fighting a huge demon attack. What more is known about this ?
Tyr interested me because i made him one of the gods that defeat Tharinzun. (sorry, i know that in the canon, he is supposed to arrived far later, after leaving his plane where his followers were less and les numberous but i don't like this "shift from real pantheon", i like D&D because it is a game of fantasy with echo from our world, taking gods as it and just shifting them into the realm is not of my taste)
About Tyr:
1)Yes that is true as of 3rd ed Realms...previously he was actualy the Norse God Tyr...who lost his hand the same way except replace the Hound of Chaos (whose names escape him) with Fenris from Norse mythology.
2) There has been no futher infomation revealed about this.
By Canon speaking Tharinzun had nothing to do with the Realms as he was orginaly from Greyhawk. But also cononly speaking considering the as of 1st and 2nd...and maybe a part of 3rd all of the D&D worlds shared the same cosomolgy it is completely possible that Tyr could have helped with this task. But since they just retconned this part of D&D away I doubt it will help you. But the option is there.
