Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 elsenrail Jul 11, 2010 3:32:50	Hi folks, Perhpas some kind soul will help me understand something: in FR cosmology there are Nine Hells, the Abyss etc. These planes/realms exist in other material worlds, like Eberron etc. Are these the same planes (as dor the Nine Hells - is it the same astral dominion) or does each material world has iths own Nine Hells, its own archdevils etc. (it wouldn't make mch sense to have a dozen Mephoistopheleses with almost the exact history, would it?).
#2 Ariane Jul 11, 2010 5:01:41	I can't speak for 4e, but I can take a stab at explaining how earlier versions of the FR cosmology worked. As I am currently AFB, this from memory alone. 2e: The various Material Plane game worlds (Toril, Oerth, Krynn, etc.) were eventually revealed to be connected in two different ways. One could travel a transitive plane to another Material Plane by use of plane shift (or similar magic), or use a spelljamming vessel to sail through the Phlogiston (part of the Spelljammer campaign setting). This meant that the game worlds also shared the same Outer Planes, such as the Nine Hells, the Abyss, etc. On a side note, the Planescape campaign setting allowed even low-level characters to adventure in the Outer Planes ... well, if not safely, then without necessarily the risk of an instant TPK. This could lead to issues like the question about Tiamat/Takhisis. Was she dead or not, and on which plane did she dwell? So Mephistopheles was a unique being, living in a unique plane, but he could send agents into the many different Material Plane game worlds (and be attacked simultaneously by an alliance of characters from the same). I'm not sure if the demon lords/archdevils had any sort of avatars, but the deities certainly did. (There was also something about the "incarnations" used by the Mulhorandi pantheon in FR.) 3e: The powers-that-be at WotC decided to move away from the single cosmology model to a "boutique cosmology". Each Material Plane game world got its own set of Outer Planes, and was completely cut off from the other game worlds. Oerth/Greyhawk kept the Great Wheel cosmology from 1e and 2e, but Toril/FR got the Tree instead. This did allow for the more weirdly-formed cosmologies which would have had trouble fitting into the Great Wheel (such as Eberron's "orrery-style" set-up). A loophole of sorts was left in the Shadow Plane. If a character travelled far enough into the deeper parts of the Shadow Plane, he could reach another cosmology entirely (MotP). There may also have been other loopholes for travelling to different cosmologies in MotP and other 3e sources. The 3e cosmology allowed for the official FR-version to Lolth to do the Silence-stuff, without it affecting the Drow in Oerth. Anyway, here Mephistopheles was not a unique being dwelling on a unique plane, but the various versions in each cosmology would not necessarily know of each other. As a side-note here, 3e did use the concept of "aspects" (both low- and high-powered) for both deities and other unique beings (such as demon lords and archdevils). These aspects were just representatives of their creator, but did not play well together. The deities also had their avatars. Then 4e came and changed everything yet again. As a personal aside, while I greeted the advent of 3e with open arms, I did not adopt 3e's changes to the FR cosmology. Although it's not used in normal play, my version of FR still has ties to both the Spelljammer and Planescape settings.
#3 suin_bahhar_02 Jul 11, 2010 5:07:32	Edit: Ninja'ed It depends on what edition you play but largely, it doesn't matter because you can choose your own connectivity of FR's cosmology. During the older editions when the Great Wheel Cosmology was in effect, Baator, or the Nine Hells, was part of the outer planes of the greater multiverse, and each Hell was infinate and collected their particular damned souls from all material planes. 3.5 introduced the concept that each world was largely self contained, including its own particlar cosmology. Toril was given its own Great Tree which had its own unique godly domains and splinters of the elemental and fiendish planes. The Blood Rift (a river Styx like planar feature) was alligned or coterminous with infinite multiversal infernal realms. Its arguable that Avernus (Hells first Layer) has the most ties to Toril's cosmology as its the main stage to host the fearunian version of the Blood War (the ancient war between devils and demons). The new edtion Torils cosmology has folded back into a simplified great wheel like structure, the Wolrd Axis cosmology, but it has both options for DM's to explore. You could make the Nine Hells a very specific Torilian version with only Realmsian sinners getting their divine punishment, but I think the general intention is that there is only one Lord of the Pit, ruling over only a single version of the Nine Hells where all fiendishly corrupted mortals will go.