That is all just me though, if your players are cool with being capped at 6th level then run with it. I would hate that.
-Somewhere out there, there evolved some kind of rumor or something that the Forgotten Realms is more "powerful" than other settings. Like so many other rumors, it is not true. You want to run a low level campaign, or low magic, or whatever else? Easily doable.
They do NOT lead you - they take you where YOU want to go.
-Somewhere out there, there evolved some kind of rumor or something that the Forgotten Realms is more "powerful" than other settings. Like so many other rumors, it is not true. You want to run a low level campaign, or low magic, or whatever else? Easily doable.
I think FR is more powerful then most. Well, that's not the word I'd choose but it's close. Back in the day when it was FR, DL, Grehawk, and Mystara it was definately the campaign setting with the highest level of magic. It was also the most well thought out setting. Now that we have Eberron, I think those two campaigns are fairly close in power level, but Eberron more closely resembles what a world with magic would actually look like.
If I had come across e-6 before I started running my currently campaign I would have used those rules. As it is I'm stuck with a massive campaign guide to account for all the changes required for low magic campaigns.
-Somewhere out there, there evolved some kind of rumor or something that the Forgotten Realms is more "powerful" than other settings. Like so many other rumors, it is not true. You want to run a low level campaign, or low magic, or whatever else? Easily doable.
Aye ‘tis true. One can run a low level/low power game in the Realms.
However, we mustn’t forget where those rumors about the pre-Spellplague Realms came from! :wink:
Consider the short story The Wizards Three: Once more the three, by Ed Greenwood (which can be found in Dragon Magazine #200, page 20, 1993). Therein a tale where Elminster of Faerûn, Mordenkainin (yup, the same mage whose name graces many of the 3E and older Player’s Handbook spells) of Greyhawk and Dalamar, Master of the Conclave of the world of Dragonlance, have gathered to palaver and trade spells.
From that story, a quote, taken just after all three are surprised by the sudden appearance of the Simbul:
Dalamar drew back. His eyes darkened as he asked carefully, “Are you threatening me?”
“No,” said the mage of Greyhawk, in a voice whose silky menace matched his own, “I’m trying to keep you alive, Dalamar. This lady mage can overmatch you easily. I believe she could best any two of us, in open spell-battle.”
Dalamar stared at him, and then back at the Simbul. “Is every mage in Faerûn more powerful than the Master of the Conclave?” he protested, sounding like a small, petulant boy who’s just been told he can’t have a toy that he’d assumed was his.
“No, lad. Just enough that ye dare not misbehave. Good advice to any mage, come to think of it.” The Old Mage’s (Elminster’s) eyes twinkled. “Now sit ye down, have a drink, and put thy nose back into joint.”
The implication being that there are just enough terribly powerful mages in the Realms to keep each other all in check. Given the frequent mention of high powered mages mentioned in page after page of novels and sourcebooks (not to mention Dragons and other beasts) written for the pre-Spellplague Realms, that was no small number.
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My apologies for the thread hijacking, squidyak.
But now a question posed to you: Where did you come upon the E-6 idea? It sounds interesting, despite its simplistic appearance? I can see how a group of players who like to try out different fantasy feels could use this setup, so I’m wondering where the idea came from.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
I think FR is more powerful then most. Well, that's not the word I'd choose but it's close. Back in the day when it was FR, DL, Grehawk, and Mystara it was definately the campaign setting with the highest level of magic. It was also the most well thought out setting. Now that we have Eberron, I think those two campaigns are fairly close in power level, but Eberron more closely resembles what a world with magic would actually look like.
If I had come across e-6 before I started running my currently campaign I would have used those rules. As it is I'm stuck with a massive campaign guide to account for all the changes required for low magic campaigns.
-Dark Sun, now that is "more powerful than most". Something I was reading about it literally says so, and that race in Dark Sun (including Humans) are purposely made more powerful, to reflect the "hard core evolution" needed to survive on Athas. Unnecessary, I think , but it is what it is. At least we got all kinds of cool creatures, like the Thri-Kreen, my new personal favorite N'Tel'Quess race.
-Mind you, I am taking you comments at face value. Do the Forgotten Realms have a whole bunch magicians? Yup. Many of them powerful? Yup. Are they more powerful than the high level magicians elsewhere? Nope. Is Forgotten Realms material overpowered (in the raw rules sense), as compared to Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and so on? Nope.
As to the Simbul in that little story there Misc, I loved that story. Personally, I took it to mean that the Simbul was a much better duelist, but not necessarily a better mage. Smart, certainly, cunning, definitely, but not sagely compared to the likes of those three. Superior in a duel, but not a library sort of thing...
-Dark Sun, now that is "more powerful than most". Something I was reading about it literally says so, and that race in Dark Sun (including Humans) are purposely made more powerful, to reflect the "hard core evolution" needed to survive on Athas. Unnecessary, I think , but it is what it is. At least we got all kinds of cool creatures, like the Thri-Kreen, my new personal favorite N'Tel'Quess race.
-Mind you, I am taking you comments at face value. Do the Forgotten Realms have a whole bunch magicians? Yup. Many of them powerful? Yup. Are they more powerful than the high level magicians elsewhere? Nope. Is Forgotten Realms material overpowered (in the raw rules sense), as compared to Greyhawk, Dragonlance, and so on? Nope.
When you look at the characters, they are certainly more powerful than their counterparts in other worlds. Even the Heroes of the Lance were less than 10th level at the end of the novels, with the exception of Raistlin. These were the greatest adventurers in the entire world of Krynn and they would have just been an average group in Faerun. Raistlin was the most powerful wizard in the history of Krynn and he was a 19th level mage with a 17 intelligence. He was the only character in the history of the planet to exceed level 18. At the same time, their were probably half a dozen wizards in excess of 20 levels in FR, I believe the Symbul was the highest at level 26.
The same applies in Dark Sun. The main power difference in Dark Sun was high ability scores and every character being psionic. Dark Sun was without a doubt a high-power campaign, but when you look at the high power characters in Athas, they're weaker than the high power characters in FR.
But now a question posed to you: Where did you come upon the E-6 idea? It sounds interesting, despite its simplistic appearance? I can see how a group of players who like to try out different fantasy feels could use this setup, so I’m wondering where the idea came from.
I first heard of E-6 on these boards, and some quick googling led me here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/206323-e6-game-inside-d-d.html .
6th level is around my favorite power level, and E-6 seems to provide almost everything I want in a game. My next campaign is going to be E-6, with the elimination of casting classes and the addition of a class dedicated to ritual casting. I also may make some prestige classes available at level 1.
When you look at the characters, they are certainly more powerful than their counterparts in other worlds. Even the Heroes of the Lance were less than 10th level at the end of the novels, with the exception of Raistlin. These were the greatest adventurers in the entire world of Krynn and they would have just been an average group in Faerun. Raistlin was the most powerful wizard in the history of Krynn and he was a 19th level mage with a 17 intelligence. He was the only character in the history of the planet to exceed level 18. At the same time, their were probably half a dozen wizards in excess of 20 levels in FR, I believe the Symbul was the highest at level 26.
The same applies in Dark Sun. The main power difference in Dark Sun was high ability scores and every character being psionic. Dark Sun was without a doubt a high-power campaign, but when you look at the high power characters in Athas, they're weaker than the high power characters in FR.
-Well, no, A Wizard in the Forgotten Realms is not inherently stronger than a Wizard in Greyhawk. An Elf in the Forgotten Realms is not inherently stronger than an Elf in Dragonlance. Statistically, they are all the same, but in the Forgotten Realms, such characters (upper level magi) are more plentiful, but not more powerful.
-On the Dark Sun tangent, I was actually reading something a few days ago (I believe it was The Burnt World of Athas, or the Dark Sun Wikipedia entry) that races and classes in Dark Sun were actually made mechanically stronger than their counterparts in other settings. All Humans were given basic 2e Psionic abilities, for example, or something to that effect. Obviously, elsewhere, this isn't the case.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric)
One question I do have about an E-6 game is, what do you do about Monsters with a CR higher than 6? Do you intend to use such monsters but convert them to a HD of 6 + additional feats?
The thought of an E-6 game does intrigue me, though I'm not sure i'd want to play in one. I think the only problem you'd face with using pre-made FR support would be the NPCs that have 6+ levels. If you wanted to use them, you'd have to do a lot of converting and such. If you don't intend on using the NPCs in combat, then I don't think you'll have a problem if you can suspend disbelief for the uber-powerful NPCs that are generaly known throughout the Realms.
One question I do have about an E-6 game is, what do you do about Monsters with a CR higher than 6? Do you intend to use such monsters but convert them to a HD of 6 + additional feats?
I would have to convert NPCs to level 6+feats. This wouldn't actually be that hard since I don't use famous NPCs too much, though E-6 would open the door to using them more often because they're closer in power to the PCs.
Monsters remain the same. Some would be unused completely. Dragons would be cut off at an earlier age and it would simply be accepted that this is how it has always been.
Dragons would be cut off at an earlier age and it would simply be accepted that this is how it has always been.
or just make them bigger, but keep the same stats, adding the elder/ancient abilities as time goes on.
-I use feats/spells/items/monsters from Forgotten Realms books in my own campaign (which does not take place in the Forgotten Realms), and I've yet to find a noticeable difference between the "power level" of a Core feat as compared to a Forgotten Realms feat, or a Core spell as compared to a Forgotten Realms spell, or a Core item as compared to a Forgotten Realms item, and so on.
greenbound summoning from lost empires is quite a bit more powerful than other "core" feats, and able to be taken by a first level character. when paired with augment summoning, it's frankly ridiculous. a first level character summoning an augmented greenbound crocodile is overpowered.
not to say that this is the case with every realms option, but they do tend to be a bit higher up the power curve than core options. it's more likely general power-creep than anything realms-specific, though.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) ;)
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric) :D
E6 is a magnificent and grand gaming system, but it will first trully shine when a world is built to take it into account.
Faerun have to much stuff written for it that we can realistically fit it into 6 levels. For instance, there are way to many way to powerful spellcasters which you would get into trouble converting (how did he stone to flesh that guy?, how did he polymorph? etc).
Just my two cent
I have tried it, and it works, though I found I rather create my won universe tailored to E6 (it will be online in January).
E6 is a magnificent and grand gaming system, but it will first trully shine when a world is built to take it into account.
Faerun have to much stuff written for it that we can realistically fit it into 6 levels. For instance, there are way to many way to powerful spellcasters which you would get into trouble converting (how did he stone to flesh that guy?, how did he polymorph? etc).
Just my two cent
Something I was thinking was having the powerful spellcasters knocked down a peg by the death of Mystra. The epic spellcasters of yesterday are but a memory.
18DELTA (Chosen of Cyric, that really likes the E-6 Concept) :D
Thanks sqidyak.
I have been really digging this style of game. I may just set up an E6 3E Game in the Realms in 1357DR using the Old Gray Box as a guide line. Sememmon as a 6th level wizard plus 10 feats, so CR 8 NPC sounds really kick *** to me.
Thanks sqidyak.
No prob. Wish I had time to run a game like that myself. I'm already running an 8th level campaign and springing such a drastic change mid campaign is a jerk move. I would start a second game on Saturdays, but I may be changing jobs soon and I need to wait to know what my schedule is.
I figured out that a level 20 character would be 6th level + 35 Feats, CR13. That will be Mystra's Chosen, and all characters over level 20 using 1E Stats, but with 3E mechanics. I have already started looking through my Old Grey Box Set PDF for NPC's. :D Been spending alot of time at enworld looking at all of the different E6 Threads.
Anything else?18DELTA (CYRIC LIKES E6) ;)
Are they more powerful than the high level magicians elsewhere? Nope.
I'm not sure about that. Are there any mages in Mystara, Dragonlance etc that can match some of the true powerhouses such as Larloch, Ioulaum et al?
-Raistlin.
Raistlin was actually only 19th level in the original 1e setting, while several FR wizards were over level 20. Raistlin just seemed more powerful because he was the only character in the history of Dragonlance to exceed level 20 and DL gods are far weaker.
Dark Sun had characters start at 3rd level the rationale being that first level characters could not survive the harshness of the world. :D Not sure I bought that one but it was nice to start at 3rd instead of first. Also there were higher CR races to be played in Athas not available to players in other worlds at the time. (Again, this was all 2Ed).
I have an even higher proliferation of super powerful wizards in my game because I run Epic in the Realms. When I start a new game I will not need to create these types of characters as I will begin at first level again so it wil be unnecessary to have them.
I guess staying on point, I find that system interesting but I would not run it maybe play in it but not run it.