September: Forgotten Realms Player’s Guide
We’ve just begun to start previewing the Campaign Guide, so detailed information on the Player’s Guide will need to wait . . . for just a short while longer. That said, let’s take a look at some of the information this book does contain:
Races: Information on playing races from the 4th Edition Player’s Handbook in the Realms . . . plus new races added to the list.
Classes: An entirely new class and new multiclass-only class (available to characters who have a spellscar, a mark that is the corroded echo of spellfire twisted by the disaster that was the Spellplague), as well as new paragon paths and an epic destiny.
Backgrounds: Regional benefits for characters.
Feats: New class and multiclass feats, plus Channel Divinity and racial feats.
Rituals: New rituals between levels 1-30.
Almanac: Quite a bit of setting information, on everything from lore, currency, cosmology, to information on the Spellplague.
August: Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide
"Learn ye well the lesson of the pebble that begets a landslide. Likewise a single betrayal unleashed the Spellplague, whose consequences yet dance and stagger across Toril, and beyond."
-- Elminster of Shadowdale
Year of the Ageless One (1479 DR)
Last month, we broke out some Forgotten Realms wordplay. This time, let’s dive a little further into the campaign setting. We mentioned in a past In the Works how core rulebook previews would be published every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday leading up to launch; the preview articles achieved a good level of success in this format, and we plan to do much the same with the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. Look for a series of preview articles leading into August, showcasing some of the people, places, and threats of the Forgotten Realms.
To start things off, however, let’s take a look at one such place:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amn
Amn is a nation under the golden thumb of a few obscenely rich and corrupt merchant houses. With the wealth these oligarchs command, Amnian fleets dominate Faerûn’s southern coasts. Amn’s rulers have declared arcane magic to be illegal, except in the hands of spellcasters licensed by the High Houses. All others are denied the opportunity to level the magical playing field. Rebellion simmers constantly among numerous disaffected and disenfranchised, many of whom are halflings.
Amn Lore
A character knows the following information with a successful skill check.
History DC 20: Amn’s colonies across the Trackless Sea vanished in the Spellplague, but Amnian merchant companies (backed by highly prized charters obtained from the ruling Council) still control profitable areas of Chult, the Mhair Archipelago, and the Moonshaes.
Streetwise DC 15: Nobody really likes Amn. Amnian merchants organized into various “companies” have strong-armed and intimidated people for thousands of miles around. The nation revels in plundering the wealth of a dozen other countries. Still, it is a human land, and individual Amnians aren’t really all that bad. It’s only the rich ones you have to watch out for.
Amn’s rivalry with Waterdeep is particularly fierce, although it’s more competition between certain merchant houses than national fervor. The monstrous realm of Muranndin to the south is a constant headache to Amnian trade.
Tethyr regards Amn’s voraciousness with no small concern, despite declaring its friendship with the nation. Such a “friend” is not likely to be of much help when trouble strikes, unless well paid for the effort.
Settlements and Features
Amn is heavily settled, especially along its great rivers and around Lakes Esmel and Weng. Inns and taverns cater to traffic along the Trade Way, lining the road for the length of its passage through the country.
Athkatla
Capital City; Population 122,000
Anything goes in Athkatla. What is considered illegal, immoral, or despicable in other places passes without comment in this so-called city of sin if the price is right. Lewdness, slavery, and even less savory acts such as murder occur here, as in any large city. But in Athkatla, the law permits almost anything. The only illegality is speaking or acting against a merchant house. In all other cases, the response to an offense is a fee, whose size depends on the degree of inconvenience to the other party. Once the fee is paid (often in advance), the act is not considered criminal -- only not paying is seen as unlawful behavior. Gold flows freely in Athkatla. As one of the busiest ports in all Faerûn, almost any good or service can be had here. Ships from places near and far dock in the city, transporting exotic vegetables, slaves, jewelry, strange relics, pirate booty, and more. Athkatla’s marketplace might even overshadow Waterdeep’s. Above the bay is Goldspires, a temple to Waukeen nearly as large as a small town.
Popular shops include Tiny Deaths (poisons), the Museum of Inquisition (torture equipment), Madroon’s Curios (a little of this, a little of that), Lowmarket (slaves), Faded Ages (memory tailoring), Odd Candy (sweets . . . ?), and I Change (body modification).
Crimmor
Caravan City; Population 40,000
The “caravan capital of Amn” is a fortified mustering point for practically all trade heading northward by land. Shadow Thieves (see the “Powers of Amn” sidebar) openly headquarter in Crimmor because it is the one city where they do not practice their trade. Indeed, they ruthlessly stamp out any freelance thieves.
Crimmor bristles with inns, taverns, and festhalls serving the numerous caravanners and adventurers who pass this way.
Powers of Amn
Amn’s Council of Five includes the Meisarch, Tessarch, Namarch, Iltarch, and Pommarch. Although these positions were once anonymously held, they now openly belong to the houses Selemchant (from Athkatla, sponsors of the Cowled Wizards), Dannihyr (from Eshpurta, secret masters of the Shadow Thieves), Alibakkar (from Athkatla), Ophal (from Crimmor), and Nashivaar (from Esmeltaran, strongly allied with the Church of Cyric), respectively.
Each of the High Houses (whose leaders make up the council) sponsors a number of smaller client houses. The mercantile cabals constantly feud, each wanting a bigger piece of the pie and working to insinuate their members into good positions. In theory, a highly successful independent house could claim a spot on the council and make it a Council of Six as it once was. Right now, about the only thing the leaders of Amn agree on is that there’s no reason to cut the take six ways.
Other important groups include the following.
The Cowled Wizards: This cabal of the only “legal” arcanists in Amn is under the control of House Selemchant. The Cowled Wizards serve as the Meisarch’s spies, troubleshooters, and assassins. Most are little more than mercenaries.
The Shadow Thieves: This widespread syndicate has largely succeeded in driving all other Amnian thieves’ guilds out of business.
Church of Cyric: Cyric’s faith is powerful in Amn, since it espouses as virtues ambition, self-reliance, and the principle of “buyer beware.” The church is not seen as particularly murderous or antisocial by most Amnians. Those initiated into the deeper circles of the faith know otherwise. Merchants who don’t want to suffer mysterious monster attacks against their caravans and ships pay off the Black Sun. Many wish to arrange such things for their rivals and willingly participate in every sort of degradation and initiation demanded by the Prince of Lies. The Cyricists are working to elevate the Pommarch to the position of council leader.
The Emerald Cabal: This secret society of unlawful spellcasters opposes the whole crooked Amnian system. The cabal occasionally arranges “unfortunate events” for merchant lords who become excessively destructive.
Plots and Adventure Sites
The Cloud Peaks: These mountains mark the northern border of Amn. Despite being home to white dragons and other dangerous creatures, they are mined for iron, precious metal, and gems. A pair of steep crags known as the Fangs guards the Trade Way leading to the Sword Coast lands. Giants are sometimes seen scaling the crags as part of some ceremony or game. The Cloud Peaks are also home to the Mountain of Skulls, a temple dedicated to Cyric.
Lake Esmel: This dark blue lake plummets to unknown depths in its central, southern, and eastern portions. Hot mineral springs flow in the western shallows. Rumors speak of a great wyrm lairing there -- some stories describe it as red, others copper.
The Wailing Dwarf: An enormous vertical slab of rock 4,000 feet high in the western portion of the Troll Mountains is carved to resemble a dwarf. Named because of the noise of the wind blowing through its hollow eyes, ears, and mouth, it marks the site of an abandoned dwarven city. In more recent times, the underground ruin was controlled by an unusually clever tribe of trolls. A newer, more vicious force has taken over the site, however, slaughtering the trolls. During the last decade, no creature entering the Wailing Dwarf has returned to tell what new monstrosity hides in the fallen city.
Behind the facade of the Wailing Dwarf, the shackled bodies of maimed, regenerating trolls are strapped across walls and ceilings. This terrible spectacle is a warning posted by several guardian nagas that the trolls disturbed after pushing too far into the ruin, a clear message to intelligent creatures to retreat from the complex immediately lest they face a similar fate. The nagas, sentinels imbued with an unquenchable desire to protect their secrets, remain potent obstacles to any other creature seeking to find treasure or knowledge in the old dwarven city.
Muranndin
South of Amn lies the monster kingdom of Muranndin, comprising the city of Murann, the Small Teeth, and portions of the northern Wealdath and eastern Dragon’s Head peninsula. This realm isolates the independent duchy of Velen from the rest of Faerûn and exacts tolls on all traffic along the Trade Way. Marauders from Muranndin roam all nearby lands.
Slavery is common here. The monstrous conquerors of the city enslaved thousands of Amnians back in the 1370s, and many of the descendants of those unfortunates still serve the ogres, orcs, and bandits of the area. A human in Muranndin can easily fight his way out of slavery -- if he’s willing to show the orcs and ogres he’s as mean, nasty, and tough as they are.
Orc and ogre chieftains (as well as black-hearted human bandit lords) maintain scattered strongholds and keeps here. Although all are theoretically subject to the dictates of the kingdom’s leader, the Great Mur, infighting and feuds are common.
18DELTA
-My guess is that the ED is an Elven High Mage.
Yeah, I bet your right.
Really?
Ummm...really what?
Thank you knight and delta for posting the links and writeup information!!!!
Ok, now I'm even more hyped than I was. I loved the writeup on Amn.
-A lot of people didn't. What was it, Nymrohd? Too "over the top"? "Shock value"?
Yeah, I bet your right.
-Me too. It's a habit of mine, being right. ;)
-A lot of people didn't. What was it, Nymrohd? Too "over the top"? "Shock value"?
-Me too. It's a habit of mine, being right. ;)
1. Wow, go figure.
2. Some of the time at least...;)
1. Wow, go figure.
-There were comments on it in the 4e FAQ thread.
2. Some of the time at least...;)
-Majority of the time. ;)
I found the article, especially the part about Athkatla to be tacky, unimaginative and over the top.
To each his/her own.
I found the article, especially the part about Athkatla to be tacky, unimaginative and over the top.
It was rather over the top, yes.
It was rather over the top, yes.
you got that
I thought it interesting. It's ripe for having the stereotypical heroes come in and save the day. However if they attacked all the powers at once, they'd be killed immediately. Instead they'd have to work with some of the powers, and are these powers truly interested in liberating their country? Or do they just want more power?
I think it could be a very interesting campaign set solely in Athkatla.
Wow, the same old people coming in and complaining about the new lore. Who woulda thunk it?
Hey, we got nuthin' else to do
Here:
[INDENT]Athkatla
Capital City; Population 122,000
Anything goes in Athkatla. What is considered illegal, immoral, or despicable in other places passes without comment in this so-called city of sin if the price is right. Lewdness, slavery, and even less savory acts such as murder occur here, as in any large city. But in Athkatla, the law permits almost anything. The only illegality is speaking or acting against a merchant house. In all other cases, the response to an offense is a fee, whose size depends on the degree of inconvenience to the other party. Once the fee is paid (often in advance), the act is not considered criminal (...)
Popular shops include Tiny Deaths (poisons), the Museum of Inquisition (torture equipment), Madroon’s Curios (a little of this, a little of that), Lowmarket (slaves), Faded Ages (memory tailoring), Odd Candy (sweets . . . ?), and I Change (body modification).[/INDENT]
I mean... shops openly operating that sell slaves, torture equipment, memory modification, and the "I Change" shop? Those aren't just a -wee- bit silly? Humans willingly living in such a lawless society that openly enforces no laws so long a price is paid, and people haven't moved out in droves? 4E or not, it's just too huge of a stretch to believe... lawless BDSM? Come on...
Please do not use this thread to debate where people should post.
WizO_Unicorn
Humans willingly living in such a lawless society that openly enforces no laws so long a price is paid, and people haven't moved out in droves? 4E or not, it's just too huge of a stretch to believe... lawless BDSM? Come on...
Sorry, are we talking about Drow society or Amn (I got confused by the BDSM comment). Anyway, is this truly the first country you've come across that said anything was legal if the right price was paid? I thought it a fairly common fantasy trope.
memory modification, and the "I Change" shop? Those aren't just a -wee- bit silly?
Depends how far you take the body modification. It could be a store that changes you're entire appearance so if you've a bounty on you, you can escape. Or it could be a tattoo and piercing parlour. I also started thinking about some interesting plots I could run with memory modification.
Uhm... there was a pretty good reason for people's reactions against the small writeup on Athkatla.
Here:
[INDENT]Athkatla
Capital City; Population 122,000
Anything goes in Athkatla. What is considered illegal, immoral, or despicable in other places passes without comment in this so-called city of sin if the price is right. Lewdness, slavery, and even less savory acts such as murder occur here, as in any large city. But in Athkatla, the law permits almost anything. The only illegality is speaking or acting against a merchant house. In all other cases, the response to an offense is a fee, whose size depends on the degree of inconvenience to the other party. Once the fee is paid (often in advance), the act is not considered criminal (...)
Popular shops include Tiny Deaths (poisons), the Museum of Inquisition (torture equipment), Madroon’s Curios (a little of this, a little of that), Lowmarket (slaves), Faded Ages (memory tailoring), Odd Candy (sweets . . . ?), and I Change (body modification).[/INDENT]
I mean... shops openly operating that sell slaves, torture equipment, memory modification, and the "I Change" shop? Those aren't just a -wee- bit silly? Humans willingly living in such a lawless society that openly enforces no laws so long a price is paid, and people haven't moved out in droves? 4E or not, it's just too huge of a stretch to believe... lawless BDSM? Come on...
Did you miss the part where it said that Cyric worship was widepread? Worshipers of Cyric would have no qualms living in that "silly" society.
If the drow in Menzoberenzon (sp?) can plot and destroy other houses as long as they leave no evidence behind, openly have slaves, kill each other in alleys or through "accidents" that everyone see's through, why can't humans? Because their human and not a fictitious race?
Humans are some of the worst monsters concievable.
Humans are some of the worst monsters concievable.
-Great Red Wyrms aren't exactly nice, either...And, make 'em Dracoliches...Oi Vey.
Humans are some of the worst monsters concievable.
Drow are in fact a subset of possible human behaviour. That's because we're unable to conceive of acting in a way that a human couldn't.
It completely stretches the issue of believability, particularly for the Realms and what Athkatla used to be. It's like the dream of an antisocial serial killer made real, presented in a deadpan fashion. And somehow, it's approved for publication under WotC's guidelines? Sorry, but regardless of 4E or not, it still seems -very- trite and silly.
Okay, lol... let me explain. It's not that people wouldn't live in a society with a truly seedy dark side. It's not specifically about body modification, but more about how it's presented (the "I Change" shop). It's not even necessarily about the slavery and poisons, but about envisioning a city where you can stroll down an avenue on a Sunday and - pick up a slave, various torture devices, arrange a murder with full "legal" allowance, and hit people with memory removal ... all in the open and with happy exchange of money.
Do you truly think that's how its going to be for the average person?
For starters if I, an average Amnian, can afford to kill anyone I want then the leaders of the city are in trouble. So either the price rises as the greater importance of the person does or its only available to the rich. If its the latter, I'm only going to want to kill other merchants so now I'm going to have to break the law to do it.
Then the memory removal. This is similar to murder so I doubt the price is much lower for unwilling participants (then you have to include the price to get it done). A lot of business for memory removal would be doing it to yourself such as forgetting something traumatic, or if you want to be able to convincingly lie to someone that you didn't do a murder, removing that from your mind.
As for a slave and torture devices, I don't see anything out of the usual with that. Where you place the torture store would have a big effect (I'd personally locate it off an alleyway) on the feel of it. Owning a slave will be reserved for successful businessmen as they cost money to maintain and buy.
-I may not like the info to much, but I do find it interesting. I wonder how many other cities openly worship Cyric in the 4-Gotten Realms. I do like how magic is controlled, helps keep that darn 'spellplague' under wraps. I am also interested in the Time keeping in the 4E Realms. I wonder how if any that has changed.
-On a side note at least I am not posting DIE 4E DIE with every post.;) :P
18DELTA
Okay, lol... let me explain. It's not that people wouldn't live in a society with a truly seedy dark side. It's not specifically about body modification, but more about how it's presented (the "I Change" shop). It's not even necessarily about the slavery and poisons, but about envisioning a city where you can stroll down an avenue on a Sunday and - pick up a slave, various torture devices, arrange a murder with full "legal" allowance, and hit people with memory removal ... all in the open and with happy exchange of money.
It completely stretches the issue of believability, particularly for the Realms and what Athkatla used to be. It's like the dream of an antisocial serial killer made real, presented in a deadpan fashion. And somehow, it's approved for publication under WotC's guidelines? Sorry, but regardless of 4E or not, it still seems -very- trite and silly.
Well, as for "what Athkatla used to be", remember this is 100 years later. Not 5 or 10, but 100. A lot (looking at you LK;) ) can change in a century. Especially after a near apocalyptic event.
Really the reasons you dont like it are the reasons I do.* It's different. It's not just a run of the mill city with some shady elements to it. It's downright nasty; nearly hell on earth sounding.
But most importantly, it sounds like a great place for some high-paragon level characters to clean up.
*No, im not a serial killer.
4-Gotten Realms
I do like how magic is controlled, helps keep that darn 'spellplague' under wraps.
Indeed. I quite like how in the city where everything is legal, magic is largely outlawed. Makes me wonder what the rest of Faerun will think of magic. It could truly set the mood for magic in the setting.
Do you truly think that's how its going to be for the average person?
I'm saying that that's the way it reads, because of its presentation. You assumed that people were reacting against it "just because it's 4E", and I'm saying that it's not just that.
-No problems Mr_Miscellany.
-I may not like the info to much, but I do find it interesting. I wonder how many other cities openly worship Cyric in the 4-Gotten Realms. I do like how magic is controlled, helps keep that darn 'spellplague' under wraps. I am also interested in the Time keeping in the 4E Realms. I wonder how if any that has changed.
-On a side note at least I am not posting DIE 4E DIE with every post.;) :P
18DELTA
Thank you for that. Seriously. I get sick everytime I see that splayed across my screen.
We get it already!
-On a side note at least I am not posting DIE 4E DIE with every post.;) :P
18DELTA
-Indeed, and those who do are reported for baiting, which is a violation of the CoC. Especially when they are accompanied by nothing or worth/relevance in the post itself.
Well, as for "what Athkatla used to be", remember this is 100 years later. Not 5 or 10, but 100. A lot (looking at you LK;) ) can change in a century. Especially after a near apocalyptic event.
-What are you looking at me for?
-Indeed, and those who do are reported for baiting, which is a violation of the CoC.
-What are you looking at me for?
-You corrected me in another thread for saying "Alot" instead of "A lot".
Your fly is open.
::Says something provocative ::
-You corrected me in another thread for saying "Alot" instead of "A lot".
-Oh, oh. Gotcha. ;)
I'm saying that that's the way it reads, because of its presentation.
So that's a yes? I read the same thing and got a different feel for it myself. While yes you could have it portrayed as a silly place that makes no sense, you can also portray it quite differently (IMO). You thought it looked silly at first glance, I didn't because I got a very different mental image
Look, people have always had issues with the Realms as it was prior to the Spellplague. People have oft complained that the Realms just couldn’t ‘be’ the way it was, for one reason or another.
So from my POV, I don’t see people criticizing the new Athkatla as a bad thing.
I just think we ought to consider how it could be possible for Athkatla to have become what it is, as opposed to announcing it just can’t be the strife-ridden place that article makes it out to be.
And speaking of Strife, I take it that Cyric-worship hasn’t dwindled with his imprisonment? I guess being locked up by the other gods isn’t much of a punishment then.
meh....
18DELTA :embarrass
And speaking of Strife, I take it that Cyric-worship hasn’t dwindled with his imprisonment? I guess being locked up by the other gods isn’t much of a punishment then.
-Rich Baker has stated that while in his "prison", he still has the ability to interact with his worshipers.
(admit it, 18Delta, you used to watch that show, didn't you...;))
That goes along with Shar being the golden girl, I guess.
(admit it, 18Delta, you used to watch that show, didn't you...;))
-An oldie but goody. :P
-With Cyric being the jailbird now, I guess he now has a lot of hotties that send him jail mail. ;) You know like the 'Night Stalker' in Cali.
Heck he probably has them fighting over who gets to marry him. :embarrass I see him as the 'Ganglord' who runs his gang from the inside. 
Cyric what a joke. 
18DELTA :P
All this being said however, I can't help but imagine an campaign where the characters are caught up in the political machinations of the major families, and possibly a sixth smaller family that is gunning for that vacant council spot. Do you try to work for the lesser of evils? Is the devil you know better than the devil you don't? Can you afford to take their offers, and can you afford not to? How long can you ally yourselves with evil people out of necessity and survival, before you become one of them? Is it even possible to make the city a better place? How would you go about trying to do so? I think the city has a lot of potential for a morally ambiguous campaign, as long as you have players don't mind a gray campaign, but will still try to do good. Of course, there is some tweaking necessary even on the small amount of information we get from the FRCS. Then again, when isn't there?
So that's a yes? I read the same thing and got a different feel for it myself. While yes you could have it portrayed as a silly place that makes no sense, you can also portray it quite differently (IMO). You thought it looked silly at first glance, I didn't because I got a very different mental image
No, it's not a "yes". You're concentrating on the city, I'm talking about the wording, the presentation, the way it is written up.
I'm talking about the wording, the presentation, the way it is written up.
Beyond a couple of silly names (I Change) I'm not really sure what you don't like about it then.
Bel
Many of you have never been to Las Vegas, I take it? Although they do try to put up a facade of law enforcement there.
Bel
Oh, the general idea isn't nearly as unrealistic as everyone is making it out to be. The writing is, well, bad, but the general idea of a corrupt city where if you have the right amount of money you can get away with even murder (as long as it isn't against the people in charge) is unfortunately very realistic. I find it a little odd that the black market is no longer black, seeing how normally the people in charge would use the black market as a way to flex more muscle, but in a society as libertarian as they are describing, I guess I could make it work. You would just have to know where to get what you want, and it might cost an arm and a leg. Obviously that shop would be the purview of one of the noble houses, and if you tried to compete with them, I hope you didn't enjoy living. I definitely think that it's something I can work with.
Many of you have never been to Las Vegas, I take it? Although they do try to put up a facade of law enforcement there.
Bel
-Reno 911.
Wow, the same old people coming in and complaining about the new lore. Who woulda thunk it?
I thought it interesting. It's ripe for having the stereotypical heroes come in and save the day. However if they attacked all the powers at once, they'd be killed immediately. Instead they'd have to work with some of the powers, and are these powers truly interested in liberating their country? Or do they just want more power?
I think it could be a very interesting campaign set solely in Athkatla.
I have been defending the 4E FR since the first leaks came out from AGHotR. I very much disliked the article. I have no issue with Athkatla being a corrupt lawless city of sin and debauchery, I always thought it was in the brink, and I find it reasonable that between the spellplague and the war with the ogres it would have ended as such.
But the quality of writing on the article is subpar. The writer who chooses to convey the mood of a city or setting by bombastic statements and tacky, supposedly humorous RL references is a novice or at least is behaving as
such.
Moreover renaming Murannheim into Muranndin and renaming its leader the great Mur is something if find uninspired and unnecessary.
I have been defending the 4E FR since the first leaks came out from AGHotR. I very much disliked the article. I have no issue with Athkatla being a corrupt lawless city of sin and debauchery, I always thought it was in the brink, and I find it reasonable that between the spellplague and the war with the ogres it would have ended as such.
But the quality of writing on the article is subpar. The writer who chooses to convey the mood of a city or setting by bombastic statements and tacky, supposedly humorous RL references is a novice or at least is behaving as
such.
Moreover renaming Murannheim into Muranndin and renaming its leader the great Mur is something if find uninspired and unnecessary.
Ok, at first I thought you disliked the new Amn. But now I see it was just the quality of the writing.
Personally, I didn't see anything wrong with it, but then I'm a pretty lenient judge when it comes to writing, soooo...
When I read this it felt as if I was going through BG2 again. It was a nice game and all, but seriously, If I wanted a repetition, Id just play it.
Are you kidding me? Athkatla in BG 2 was a lot more believable, sure magic was outlawed, fees were badly hidden bribes, and slavery was common but officially outlawed, so slaves were transported by night and the guards were paid to look the other way. If they simply introduced slavery offically everything would be normal and believable, but this???
In Athkatla, the law permits almost anything. The only illegality is speaking or acting against a merchant house. In all other cases, the response to an offense is a fee, whose size depends on the degree of inconvenience to the other party. Once the fee is paid (often in advance), the act is not considered criminal -- only not paying is seen as unlawful behavior.
What the nine hells is that?
Popular shops include Tiny Deaths (poisons), the Museum of Inquisition (torture equipment), Madroon’s Curios (a little of this, a little of that), Lowmarket (slaves), Faded Ages (memory tailoring), Odd Candy (sweets . . . ?), and I Change (body modification).
Okay, now it broke my cliché-meter... Can everybody in that city please grow a goatee? This is even too ridiculous for the drow, these are POPULAR shops? So everybody gets his own set of torture devices, poisons etc? Openly? Everybody who is near the same shop can see it? I would laugh, if it wouldn't be so sad.... For the record, I love the 4E system, I hate everything 4E has done to the settings till now....
I Change.
This fills me with lots of confidence as to the rest of the Realms, especially when combined with the Zhent Headless Horsemen. It's going to be great!
Amn is a nation of looking the other way. The slave thing is nothing unusual, didn't Mulhorondi have legal slavery and paladins of certain gods there let it happen?
Plus Johnlynch negativity on these forums is nothing new. Negativity is what keeps some people going every day it seems. Sad.
Plus Johnlynch negativity on these forums is nothing new. Negativity is what keeps some people going every day it seems. Sad.
Not as sad as what has happened to our realms. I wish I could be positive about this. When 4e was announced I was excited. I actually like the game itself but as this Realms stuff comes out its hard not to be negative. Believe me when I say I wish I wasn't. i wish I was pumped for this
The new Amn seems more terrible than old Thay, at least they did have laws that governed slavery (these laws didn´t help the slaves a lot, but they at least where clear about legal status and such).
The writeup could be worse, and the names can be salvaged if you translate them into an obscure language I guess.
Thats the way I like to play my intrigue campaigns actually.
Plus Johnlynch negativity on these forums is nothing new. Negativity is what keeps some people going every day it seems. Sad.
Agreed. I cannot imagine putting so much energy into something I clearly dislike.
Also, I appreciate finally someone putting some pulpish GUSTO in their writing. Evil should ooze like a PUSS from the Realms. That's what PCs are for and it's nice to see Amn portrayed as a place where you can ADVENTURE.
I always felt it was treated with kids glove rather than the nation of evil corruption and festering greed it should be.
Agreed. I cannot imagine putting so much energy into something I clearly dislike.
So you wouldn't care if one of your relatives got sick? I guess most people here that complain aren't here because they like complaining, but because they love the Forgotten Realms and want to tell the doctor who is about too amputate all healthy limbs from them and replace them with golem parts what they think of him.
The Forgotten Realms were a great setting, with a few flaws, when I look at everything that was released as a preview so far it becomes a bad setting with a few merits.
So you wouldn't care if one of your relatives got sick? I guess most people here that complain aren't here because they like complaining, but because they love the Forgotten Realms and want to tell the doctor who is about too amputate all healthy limbs from them and replace them with golem parts what they think of him.
The Forgotten Realms were a great setting, with a few flaws, when I look at everything that was released as a preview so far it becomes a bad setting with a few merits.
Golem parts? Cool! It can be just like Robocop.
I always felt it was treated with kids glove rather than the nation of evil corruption and festering greed it should be.
Charles, I knew there was a reason I missed you on these forums.
I gotta say WotC is making it real easy to get adventures started in Amn.
For example, I have a couple players in my group that are real gung-ho to stamp out evil when they play Paladins or Lawful characters.
I think I'll drop them into a Teleporation Circle (4E version of 3E's Portals and 2E+1E's Gates) and let them experience Athkatlan culture shock first-hand.
Hehee...I can totally see my players attacking a ruffian who is menacing some unfortunate person (said ruffian equipped with a trusty Athkatlan Kutter in each hand), only to have the ruffian call out for the watch to arrest the players for preventing him from conducting his lawfully contracted murder on behalf of one of the more powerful merchant houses.
The players are forced to pay a fee of inconvenience, which turns out to be a forced errand (read: mission) against another rival merchant house.
It sounds railroady, but I’m sure I could make it fun.
The Forgotten Realms were a great setting, with a few flaws, when I look at everything that was released as a preview so far it becomes a bad setting with a few merits.
Like I said, I just can't imagine coming here day after day to comment again and again about aspects I dislike of a game.
The players are forced to pay a fee of inconvenience, which turns out to be a forced errand (read: mission) against another rival merchant house.
It sounds railroady, but I’m sure I could make it fun.
Thanks. Glad to be back.
Seriously, I don't get the complaints here. The city is Mos Eisley space port, Sin City, or Gotham City depending on what sort of mood Batman is in. Yes, it's overwrought and corrupt but that's the way Amn has always been. They've just made it easier to adventure in the place.
Instead of having to deal with the "We want to be Arabic but we're not" Amn of before, now it's just Zamora from Conan. Only the rich are protected and anything goes.
With the way my PCs act, killing in the streets and so on, I wouldn't be surprised if they start to LIKE the city. Harlots, weapons for sale, and no questions asked.
Mal Renyolds, Han Solo, Conan, and Fuji the Samurai already want to rent an apartment here.
im not surprised about amn, they went from counting house to evil im going to be bigger and badder than Zhent and Bane combined evil
I don't even see it as that different. I remind you that we had as early as Elaine Cunningham, members of the assassins guild walking around with their sashes proudly displaying their membership and rank. Likewise, the Amn were riddled with secret societies so evil the Knights of the Shield were kicked out by their dirty tactics.
Yes; they sell openly sell drugs, poisons, and slaves. How is that different from Calimport?
I don't even see it as that different. I remind you that we had as early as Elaine Cunningham, members of the assassins guild walking around with their sashes proudly displaying their membership and rank. Likewise, the Amn were riddled with secret societies so evil the Knights of the Shield were kicked out by their dirty tactics.
Yes; they sell openly sell drugs, poisons, and slaves. How is that different from Calimport?
becuase amn was and is full of themselves, and Calimport is pompous better than you arrogant .
Anyway I always saw Amn as a nasty place full of powerful merchants who run everything with an iron fist. I hope the Silth nation is still around because that had alot of poetential. If it is not I will keep it around.
It just sounds like something can't be interesting in a fantasy world any more unless it is totally bizar.
I bet they also have a shop 'Metallic Me', where they put your brain in a golem and turn you into a warforged.
Gomez
Hell, people may even pick up the book and go "I like Spellscars, I need them in my campaign world". I know if I like the mechanics I will let my players use them in my second chapter to my Eberron game. I am sure I can figure a way to fit it into the campaign and world.
As someone else said: no problem with the ideas, but the execution lacks.
Please do not use this thread to debate where people should post.
WizO_Unicorn
I choose to accept the bad in the new FR and to even discuss it from time to time, but my main focus is on the good in the new FR and finding ways to enhance it, as well as on ways to improve the the bad parts that I don't like.
So? I would talk about the good if there was a lot to talk about. I am not sure if there is. But I have said often there are things about the 4-Gotten that I like, the destruction of Maztica and Halruaa come to mind
Unfortunately, there are several things I fundamentally loath such as the time jump, the death of numerous gods for absolutely no reason (i.e. not Mystra) and the force feeding of dragonborn on us when it was not necessary. Not to mention the decision to stop printing supplements
So? I would talk about the good if there was a lot to talk about. I am not sure if there is.
Ah, but there is!
Cormyr alone is an excellent topic to converse about.
When that article hits I'm sure we'll be extolling its virtues and (yes) expounding on its negatives (if there even are any ;)).
But I have said often there are things about the 4E Forgotten Realms that I like, the destruction of Maztica and Halruaa come to mind
You have, and I appreciate that. I well and truly do.
I will loose no sleep over Maztica's loss, but I'm on the fence about Halruaa. If I don't like what the designers hav done I may just turn back the clock a bit.
We'll have to wait and see, I guess.
Unfortunately, there are several things I fundamentally loath such as the time jump, the death of numerous gods for absolutely no reason (i.e. not Mystra) and the force feeding of dragonborn on us when it was not necessary. Not to mention the decision to stop printing supplements
Aye....the trick, then, is to figure out at what point to move on.
That's not to say one should move away from the Realms, but instead accept all the bad stuff and just get back to the fun.
We're basically stuck with the 4E Realms for good or for ill. We might as well make the most of it. (Thanks to Ed Greenwood for advising me about this at GenCon 2007!)
As for me, I've made the decision that I want to see the 4E Realms succeed, no matter what.
I've made the decision to vote with my wallet by purchasing the FR Campaign Guide and the FR Player's Guide. If I can put together enough spare money, I'll buy FRPGs for all my players, just like I bought them all a set of the 4E Core Rulebooks.
On with the fun!
And I have made the opposite decision. I frankly hope it fails utterly if its as bad as it appears. I am willing to wait for the product to come out before making a final decision. I base my criticisms only on what they have released and to me its not promising at all.
But assuming its as bad as I think. I hope its a terrible failure. Maybe then they would retcon it to some degree.
And I hope it succeeds wonderfully. So where does that put us? From all the changes I've seen I'm loving the Realms more now than ever. I feel they've gone in a complete wonderful direction and hope they prosper tenfold from 3rd edition. So now the WotC team has two problems, the first being the people who hate the newer stuff (FR wise) and trying to bring them around to the new edition. If it doesn't work, they've lost buisness. The second problem is if they were to completely retcon all the spellplague stuff they would lose people's buisness who enjoy the changes. WotC can't satisfy everyone's appeal and so they're hoping they can bring around the older people into the fold rather than scrapping a whole new line of their work. Bottom line is if you don't enjoy the product don't buy it. I refuse to by anything remotely connected to 2e/AD&D because it's just that bad and a waste of paper and shelf space IMO. That's really the only way that your voice could be heard is with your checkbook. Ranting on the message boards about how much you hate the product probably will not change the out-come (however therapeutic it might be) and might start to annoy other posts that are pro-change. I'm not saying stop, just giving you a reason people might post the way they are.
Please do not use this thread to debate where people should post.
WizO_Unicorn
I refuse to by anything remotely connected to 2e/AD&D because it's just that bad and a waste of paper and shelf space IMO.
-That's unfortunate, because I'd estimate 75% of the lore concerning the Forgotten Realms is 2e.
And I hope it succeeds wonderfully. So where does that put us?
As 2 D&D guys who differ
If it doesn't work, they've lost buisness. The second problem is if they were to completely retcon all the spellplague stuff they would lose people's buisness who enjoy the changes.
Yup. Thats what happens when you make a drastic change. Ultimately though if the 4-gotten realms fails miserably as I hope it does, then theoretically there is not that many people who liked the changes.
Bottom line is if you don't enjoy the product don't buy it.
Of course. And I won't. And I encourage everyone else who is not happy about the 4e realms to do the same
Ranting on the message boards about how much you hate the product probably will not change the out-come
Probably not. But that is not a reason to stop criticizing when the discussion is headed there. I am not going to stop criticizing the product if I feel its worthy of criticism just because some people here think we should just talk positive.
Like I said, I just can't imagine coming here day after day to comment again and again about aspects I dislike of a game.
-It gets really easy after awhile. :P You should try it you just might like it. ;)
18DELTA
Popular shops include Tiny Deaths (poisons), the Museum of Inquisition (torture equipment), Madroon’s Curios (a little of this, a little of that), Lowmarket (slaves), Faded Ages (memory tailoring), Odd Candy (sweets . . . ?), and I Change (body modification).
Okay, now it broke my cliché-meter... Can everybody in that city please grow a goatee?
And moustaches, so they can twirl them.;)
"Odd Candy" is a really Realmsian-sounding name!
Thanks. Glad to be back.
Seriously, I don't get the complaints here. The city is Mos Eisley space port, Sin City, or Gotham City depending on what sort of mood Batman is in. Yes, it's overwrought and corrupt but that's the way Amn has always been. They've just made it easier to adventure in the place.
Well, that's fine for some, but I liked Amn the way it was.
I don't even see it as that different. I remind you that we had as early as Elaine Cunningham, members of the assassins guild walking around with their sashes proudly displaying their membership and rank.
That wasn't in Amn, though, that was (IIRC) Tethyr before the Restoration.
-That was horrible...
-At least they are telling the truth. It's odd candy. They're not... "sugar coating" it!
-That was horrible...
It was rather funny, and appropriate.
Well anyway, I think I've said my piece about this. I'm poking fun at this new Amn article, but I'm not angry about it, because it's not going into my Realms. If other people like it, I say use it and have fun.
-That's unfortunate, because I'd estimate 75% of the lore concerning the Forgotten Realms is 2e.
Sadly your correct. And it was never a problem about the Lore of FR but all about mechanics and how much they blew. Seriously when people ask me to play 2e with them, I feel that i'd rather chew broken glass. But lore published before 3rd edition really has never made any sort of impact on my games and with AGHotR out, we can look back to certain points in Faerun's history to see if we might want to include any significant changes. Also, many of the 3e books and FR novels have loads of lore packed in them and I do read the novels, no matter the edition it was published around.
Probably not. But that is not a reason to stop criticizing when the discussion is headed there. I am not going to stop criticizing the product if I feel its worthy of criticism just because some people here think we should just talk positive.
Your correct and I feel people should speak their mind about a product whether negative or positive. Just throwing it out there as to why pro-4e people are saying "stop with the h4ting" and "get over it" stuff like that. And as I side note, it's funny when you read posts about the conversion from 2nd/Ad&d to 3rd. Much of the same complaints and hat3ing from those people as well, lol.
Sadly your correct. And it was never a problem about the Lore of FR but all about mechanics and how much they blew. Seriously when people ask me to play 2e with them, I feel that i'd rather chew broken glass. But lore published before 3rd edition really has never made any sort of impact on my games and with AGHotR out, we can look back to certain points in Faerun's history to see if we might want to include any significant changes. Also, many of the 3e books and FR novels have loads of lore packed in them and I do read the novels, no matter the edition it was published around.
Why "sadly"? Granted, I agree about 2E - those rules were just not my favorite thing, and I changed over briefly to Rolemaster rules during that time (but still used the Realms). The truly great thing about the time of 2E was the proliferation of lore. All the Volo guides, which are mostly edition-free, and quite a lot of the stuff in 2E sourcebooks (the fluff, if you will) was mostly re-edited and reformatted for the updated printings in 3E. I'd wager that a good 80-90% of the lore in 3E was almost a direct reprint of 2E sources. Only a few things, like the detailing of Halruaa and the lands of the Hin are "new" in 3E lore.
Sadly your correct. And it was never a problem about the Lore of FR but all about mechanics and how much they blew. Seriously when people ask me to play 2e with them, I feel that i'd rather chew broken glass. But lore published before 3rd edition really has never made any sort of impact on my games and with AGHotR out, we can look back to certain points in Faerun's history to see if we might want to include any significant changes. Also, many of the 3e books and FR novels have loads of lore packed in them and I do read the novels, no matter the edition it was published around.
-I don't know the first thing about 2e rules. I just recently learned that a AC of 20 in 2e is a very, very, very bad thing. That said, I don't purchase the 2e sourcebooks for the rules.
I mean... shops openly operating that sell slaves, torture equipment, memory modification, and the "I Change" shop? Those aren't just a -wee- bit silly? Humans willingly living in such a lawless society that openly enforces no laws so long a price is paid, and people haven't moved out in droves? 4E or not, it's just too huge of a stretch to believe... lawless BDSM? Come on...
Silly? There are places where slavery, drugs, and worse are common in the real world. Why is it silly that they exist in a fantasy one?
I understand that grit doesn't have its place in everyone's games, but it doesn't seem silly or over-the-top.
Many of you have never been to Las Vegas, I take it? Although they do try to put up a facade of law enforcement there.
Bel
Only those who know me, kid. Look around you: you'll see two councilmen, a union official, a couple off-duty cops, and a judge. Now, I wouldn't have a second's hesitation of blowing your head off right here and right now in front of 'em. Now, that's power you can't buy! That's the power of fear.
;) :D
And as I side note, it's funny when you read posts about the conversion from 2nd/Ad&d to 3rd. Much of the same complaints and hat3ing from those people as well, lol.
I am sure you are correct, but I missed that conversion being out of the D&D loop at the time
Why "sadly"? Granted, I agree about 2E - those rules were just not my favorite thing, and I changed over briefly to Rolemaster rules during that time (but still used the Realms). The truly great thing about the time of 2E was the proliferation of lore. All the Volo guides, which are mostly edition-free, and quite a lot of the stuff in 2E sourcebooks (the fluff, if you will) was mostly re-edited and reformatted for the updated printings in 3E. I'd wager that a good 80-90% of the lore in 3E was almost a direct reprint of 2E sources. Only a few things, like the detailing of Halruaa and the lands of the Hin are "new" in 3E lore.
I say "sadly" because even though there is good lore in those supplements I can't stomach the fact that it's tied into the 2e rules (however small) and thus refuse to purchase it. Also, many of my group who play know very little about the Realms outside of the Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Night's games and from a few novels. I think for them there's just too much stuff to sift through and what lore we received from 3e is good enough. I'd rather save the money to spend on 4e products anyways.
I am sure you are correct, but I missed that conversion being out of the D&D loop at the time
Someone had a link to another web site dated around 1999 when 3e was released. Many of the posts reguarded the new rules a "dumbing down" of DnD, how things worked just fine with their THAC0, and how the over-all game play of DnD didn't need an overhaul. I find it funny now seeing the same posts again over 4e.
To get somewhat back on topic though....
When they release new supplements (like the FRPG) will they have new at-will, encounter, daily, utility powers for various classes as well as other additional crunch like PrPs and EpDs? Just wondering if anyone read more about that.
I say "sadly" because even though there is good lore in those supplements I can't stomach the fact that it's tied into the 2e rules (however small) and thus refuse to purchase it. Also, many of my group who play know very little about the Realms outside of the Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Night's games and from a few novels. I think for them there's just too much stuff to sift through and what lore we received from 3e is good enough. I'd rather save the money to spend on 4e products anyways.
Okay, I totally understand. But I would like to make a really small "plug" for you to check out something that's totally free... there are a few Volo's guides that are still available for free download (legally, from WotC's website) from the time period of 2E. The Volo's guides are almost completely edition-free and (imo) are just neat to have, even if you're going purely for 4E future stuff. Nostalgia is always cool, I think. They're available here if you would like to check them out.
Back to the main discussion!
Okay, I totally understand. But I would like to make a really small "plug" for you to check out something that's totally free... there are a few Volo's guides that are still available for free download (legally, from WotC's website) from the time period of 2E. The Volo's guides are almost completely edition-free and (imo) are just neat to have, even if you're going purely for 4E future stuff. Nostalgia is always cool, I think. They're available here if you would like to check them out.
Much appreciated and I do infact have that link added to my D&D Favorites section. I occasionally take things from there from time to time and I think the only reason I do have it is because it's free and doesn't take up space, lol.
I say "sadly" because even though there is good lore in those supplements I can't stomach the fact that it's tied into the 2e rules (however small) and thus refuse to purchase it.
-Geeze, that's like not eating just to spite your stomach.
-Geeze, that's like not eating just to spite your stomach.
Or people not attempting to try a new edition (which could be fun) just to spite it's creators.
Someone had a link to another web site dated around 1999 when 3e was released. Many of the posts reguarded the new rules a "dumbing down" of DnD, how things worked just fine with their THAC0, and how the over-all game play of DnD didn't need an overhaul. I find it funny now seeing the same posts again over 4e.
But again most people on this Board are complaining about the changes to the setting not the game rules.
When they release new supplements (like the FRPG) will they have new at-will, encounter, daily, utility powers for various classes as well as other additional crunch like PrPs and EpDs? Just wondering if anyone read more about that.
I don't see how they couldn't. The FRPG is having a whole new class so they would have to.
The new Dragon and Undead books are mostly for the DM according to Etyan Bernsttein so they very well might not
Or people not attempting to try a new edition (which could be fun) just to spite it's creators.
That's a teensy bit unfair, actually. I've played the 4E rules, with a group that did KotS. And honestly, I've said before that I thought that it was generally fun (just like Ed Greenwood, incidentally ;) ), and I would probably play it again if offered. But it was pretty different, which isn't a bad thing really. It just wasn't personally enough to my tastes that it made me want to buy it, so I didn't. -shrug- But people can't say that I didn't try it, and I'd be the first to agree that it was generally fun and I'd play it again. Wasn't super-uber-smashingly awesome like the media hype though, just average.
The 4E Realms setting, though... no way. Do not want.
Or people not attempting to try a new edition (which could be fun) just to spite it's creators.
-Not particularly, because:
(A) Rules =/= setting. What you're doing is disassociating yourself with the rules and the setting, whereas someone not buying the ruleset is not disassociating themselves with the setting (which is something they might do regardless, just because of what was done to the setting).
(B) They don't like the rules, regardless of who created them. I know I don't know the names behind the people who developed this stuff (I think there's Chris Perkins, Mike Noonan(?) and some other guy? Logan?), and I don't like most of the rules
-Not particularly, because:
(A) Rules =/= setting. What you're doing is disassociating yourself with the rules andthe setting, whereas someone not buying the ruleset is not disassociating themselves with the setting (which is something they might do regardless, just because of what was done to the setting).
It's no more different than someone enjoying the rules of 4e but hating everything about FR 4e and thus not buying anything to support the people who made the changes.
(B) They don't like the rules, regardless of who created them. I know I don't know the names behind the people who developed this stuff (I think there's Chris Perkins, Mike Noonan(?) and some other guy? Logan?), and I don't like most of the rules
I find the rules stream-lined enough to make things quicker and easier when it comes to battle as well as more interesting for more than 3 classes. The new saving throw system is nice, IMO, as well as the balance across the board. But if someone doens't like them, I don't see a need for them to buy it, as I have not bought anything from 2e (reguardless of who created them). But it's people who shout "evil empire" for the WotC that, not even looking at the rules or skimming them without even attempting to grasp the concept, will not buy the edition just because of what has been changed, Core rules and FR alike.
That's a teensy bit unfair, actually. I've played the 4E rules, with a group that did KotS. And honestly, I've said before that I thought that it was generally fun (just like Ed Greenwood, incidentally ), and I would probably play it again if offered. But it was pretty different, which isn't a bad thing really. It just wasn't personally enough to my tastes that it made me want to buy it, so I didn't. -shrug- But people can't say that I didn't try it, and I'd be the first to agree that it was generally fun and I'd play it again. Wasn't super-uber-smashingly awesome like the media hype though, just average.
The 4E Realms setting, though... no way. Do not want.
I'm glad you've gave it a shot and had fun with it. And if you don't like the post spell-plague setting, it's fairly easy to adapt the 4e rules to the pre spell-plague era if you so choose. But that's exactly what I did with 2e, except I loved the setting, just not the rules. And like I said to LK, there are people on the boards (boards overall, not just here) that have written off 4e because they've felt slighted by the designers and writers of WotC. So there are people on here that have boycotted the new edition just to spite the creaters.
It's no more different than someone enjoying the rules of 4e but hating everything about FR 4e and thus not buying anything to support the people who made the changes.
-Not really, because of the "backwardsness" with the 2e stuff, as opposed to the "parallelness" of the 4e stuff. Also, of course, 75% of ALL of the TOTAL LORE is contained within 2e.
I like it! :D
I was worred the whole POL thing was going to uterly donamate all villian and heros into civlised = good and wilds = bad. But Amn a nice civlised evil where murder of course must be paid for.. with coin of course!
... I change a few names course...;)
-Not really, because of the "backwardsness" with the 2e stuff, as opposed to the "parallelness" of the 4e stuff. Also, of course, 75% of ALL of the TOTAL LORE is contained within 2e.
But some people on the boards DON'T support the new rules because of what's changed, Core and Setting alike. People have expressed displeasure about the writers on the setting and rules changes, have felt "slighted", and refuse to purchase the new edition because they've just spend so much $$ on their 3e library. It's for this reason I say they spite the creaters and write off 4e without giving it a shot. At least I gave 2e a shot before I decided it was trash and nor do I dissuade others from trying or using 2e rules as some on the boards tend to do.
But some people on the boards DON'T support the new rules because of what's changed, Core and Setting alike. People have expressed displeasure about the writers on the setting and rules changes, have felt "slighted", and refuse to purchase the new edition because they've just spend so much $$ on their 3e library.
Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with people feeling that way. I bought the 4e books but what you describe is a perfectly reasonable point of view
Multi-class only class? Sounds interesting.
*SIGH* Ohh yes, the start of another term for "prestige classes". I sense extreme unbalance is under way...Couldn't they atleast keep it to Paragon and Epic paths?
Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with people feeling that way. I bought the 4e books but what you describe is a perfectly reasonable point of view
Your correct, there isn't a right or wrong way for people to feel. I do, however, feel it can be a bit unreasonable. I generally try to back up my opinions with experience and a good dash of knowledge before I make a point (try anyways) but when people skim the Core rules, or say...look at JUST the wizard class and note that Magic Missile needs a roll to hit then write off the whole thing as horrible trash then I have to question if that's a reasonable opinion.
-I think you're missing the crux of what I'm trying to get across.
That in 2e the rules (being as screwy as they are) could be disassociated with 2e lore (which made up 75% of the Lore for FR) and that's not the case in 4e because the setting really connects to the Core rules? Or the fact that people spite the new edition because of the rules and/or happenings of the FR setting which is the crux of their complaints? I think that's the gist of it. And I say that some people won't buy the edition because the design team made drastic changes to the FR setting and to the Core rules without even picking up the PHB, thus giving it a fair chance.
That in 2e the rules (being as screwy as they are) could be disassociated with 2e lore (which made up 75% of the Lore for FR) and that's not the case in 4e because the setting really connects to the Core rules?
-Nooooo....Firstly, the rules are the rules, and the setting is the setting. They're two separate things that can be disassociated. To not buy 2e sourcebooks because of the rules is silly, when 75% of the current/past lore was in those books. With the 4e sourcebooks, that's information that will be in the present/future.
Ah, but there is!
Cormyr alone is an excellent topic to converse about.
When that article hits I'm sure we'll be extolling its virtues and (yes) expounding on its negatives (if there even are any ;)).
You have, and I appreciate that. I well and truly do.
I will loose no sleep over Maztica's loss, but I'm on the fence about Halruaa. If I don't like what the designers hav done I may just turn back the clock a bit.
We'll have to wait and see, I guess.
Aye....the trick, then, is to figure out at what point to move on.
That's not to say one should move away from the Realms, but instead accept all the bad stuff and just get back to the fun.
We're basically stuck with the 4E Realms for good or for ill. We might as well make the most of it. (Thanks to Ed Greenwood for advising me about this at GenCon 2007!)
As for me, I've made the decision that I want to see the 4E Realms succeed, no matter what.
I've made the decision to vote with my wallet by purchasing the FR Campaign Guide and the FR Player's Guide. If I can put together enough spare money, I'll buy FRPGs for all my players, just like I bought them all a set of the 4E Core Rulebooks.
On with the fun!
Wow, I wish I were in your group!:D
:heeheeBut some people on the boards DON'T support the new rules because of what's changed, Core and Setting alike. People have expressed displeasure about the writers on the setting and rules changes, have felt "slighted", and refuse to purchase the new edition because they've just spend so much $$ on their 3e library. It's for this reason I say they spite the creaters and write off 4e without giving it a shot. At least I gave 2e a shot before I decided it was trash and nor do I dissuade others from trying or using 2e rules as some on the boards tend to do.
Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with people feeling that way. I bought the 4e books but what you describe is a perfectly reasonable point of view
Then there are people (like me), who have purchased the new rules, and actually enjoy them, but bought all the 3E Forgotten Realms books. Yes, I spent A LOT of money on 3E, and there is nothing wrong with it, but I prefer 4E (well most of it).
I will be purchasing the new Realms books, and if I don't like what they've done, then I will use all my 2/3E fluff to play a game in the FR. It won't be 100 years in the future (unless I actually like all of what they have done), but it will still be in the Realms.
All of that aside, I'm looking forward to the previews and the books in August.
To not buy 2e sourcebooks because of the rules is silly, when 75% of the current/past lore was in those books.
Agreed. When both 4e books are released I'll be starting a thread for 4e DMs (although 3.5e fans are encouraged to weigh in so that us new DMs can benefit from their past knowledge if they want to help us with our 4e FR campaigns) that splits the past source books into 4 categories:
* Current Lore - The region hasn't changed enough that the lore in this book will be useful AND the lore covers stuff not covered by the DMG and PHB.
* Historic Lore - The region has changed significantly from this book that the lore within it is no longer valid for 4e FR. However the lore does provide good information on the history of this region (historic from the perspective of 4e FR)
* Not Useful - All the lore in this book is reproduced in the DMG or PHB or the book is mainly rules, making it a poor buy for the lore.
* Unsorted - These are the books no-one has commented on yet ;)
-Geeze, that's like not eating just to spite your stomach.
I have to say I agree with LK and Therise on this--sources like the Volo's Guides aren't that tied into the rules, and they're fun reads.
But it's people who shout "evil empire" for the WotC that, not even looking at the rules or skimming them without even attempting to grasp the concept, will not buy the edition just because of what has been changed, Core rules and FR alike.
No offense, but what's your point, here? Are you saying that you're being like those people, so there's nothing wrong with it?
Wow, I wish I were in your group!:D
If we start operating in Florida again, I'll drop you a line.
:D
I will be purchasing the new Realms books, and if I don't like what they've done, then I will use all my 2/3E fluff to play a game in the FR. It won't be 100 years in the future (unless I actually like all of what they have done), but it will still be in the Realms.
Never said there was anything wrong with that either. All I said was the other point of view is certainly valid
No offense, but what's your point, here? Are you saying that you're being like those people, so there's nothing wrong with it?
It is a bit confusing, sorry :embarrass but the answer is no because at least I tried 2e before I came to my opinion that it's garbage (rules wise) while some anti-4e people came to this conclusion without first trying it. I don't purchase 2e materials because a.- I rather spend money on 4e stuff, b.- I don't want to make room (which is limited btw) for material my group (besides myself) might never use, and c.- because I do spite 2e that much as to not give it a cent. As I said, I do spite the edition but i've at least tried it multipul times.
It is a bit confusing, sorry :embarrass but the answer is no because at least I tried 2e before I came to my opinion that it's garbage (rules wise) while some anti-4e people came to this conclusion without first trying it. I don't purchase 2e materials because a.- I rather spend money on 4e stuff, b.- I don't want to make room (which is limited btw) for material my group (besides myself) might never use, and c.- because I do spite 2e that much as to not give it a cent. As I said, I do spite the edition but i've at least tried it multipul times.
Well, suit yourself then.
My opinion is that you're missing out on some great stuff, but it's your choice to make.