As it stands, it is flame bait at it's finest.
Please someone tell me why in all that is mighty did they completely butcher the Forgotten Realms setting???? The setting is so horrible that it makes me wish Forgotten Realms would vanish forever.
You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but bear in mind that a great many, myself included, love the new Realms. I've been a fan for years, and think the 4th edition setting is the best it's ever been.
If you want to use the new fluff, run games that occur after the Spellplague.
It's really not that hard.
It was bound to happen eventually.
You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but bear in mind that a great many, myself included, love the new Realms. I've been a fan for years, and think the 4th edition setting is the best it's ever been.
Well thats great for you. I have been a fan of the realms myself for a really really long time. I feel that they messed up the realms in order to bring in the Dragonborn and Tieflings and change the realms around to fit the difference in Elves and Eldadrin. This mess about a returned Abeir is horrible and the Spellplague in my opinion isn't very good either. I feel that the realms was going in a good direction back in 3rd edition.
I, for one, am fine with the setting. I basically stepped into DnD at the end of 3.5 (like, a few months before 4e was released), so I can't claim any long-term connection with the Realms of old. What I do know is that this version of Forgotten Realms works for me, and it works for others.
So it doesn't work for you. That's fine. No one's holding a gun to your head, forcing you to play in the 4e Realms (at least, I hope that's not the case). So play a game that you enjoy, in the campaign setting you enjoy.
That's all there is to it, really.
Please someone tell me why in all that is mighty did they completely butcher the Forgotten Realms setting????
To irritate you, personally.
To irritate you, personally.
Yep. Someone at WOTC woke up one morning and said to himself, "Hmm, what can I do to just really **** off Dantane today." :D
2. Published settings need occasional resets. If they don't get them, they slowly become more and more of a cult fandom. The dedicated fans who know all of the lore love the setting, but the general fans rarely want to invest the time and effort necessary to catch up. A reset enrages the dedicated fans, but gathers in the general fans.
Good part about 4E? If you want to use pre-4E material, all your old FR books still function perfectly fine for fluff. If you want to play after the Spellplague too, then you're good to go.
Up until the most recent 4e release, I'd played in the Realms (with various groups) since the release of the Forgotten Realms Adventures book in the early '90s; so, I have some longtime attachment to the setting as a gamer.
With each new edition of D&D, the Realms have changed (to reflect the changes in the rules). The infamous Realms Shaking Events ;). When 2nd edition came out, it was the Time of Troubles. We were just starting, so there were no changes from 1st edition to worry about. I eventually acknowledged the Time of Troubles with our current group, but by then 3e had already been released.
We talked about starting up a 4e campaign but I think we're gonna hold out for Eberron later this year (we never did get to play it during 3.5); We're excited, something I don't think could be said about a prospective 4e Realms campaign.
For myself, the Spellplague is a Realms 'Shattering' Event; it did way more than update the setting to the new rules, it wiped the slate. I prefer to think of the 4e Realms as an 'alternate history' setting, unrelated to the Realms of previous editions. I don't mind so much thinking of this as an entirely new setting. If I try to reconcile the current incarnation with what I know and love of the Realms however, it really ticks me off-- so, this mindset is healthier for me ;).
Anyway, just wanted to throw a few of coppers in-- let ya know you aren't alone. As others have mentioned, it's old news for many of us by this point; still, not everyone gets the news at the same time ;).
The line between green elves and high elves(eladrin) is very distinct in it's history.
To the OP: you obviously never played in the original 1E Realms. Because if you did, you'd be used to these world-altering occurrences.
Simple...if you don't like it, don't play it...and leave those of us quite content with it in peace.
Please someone tell me why in all that is mighty did they completely butcher the Forgotten Realms setting???? The setting is so horrible that it makes me wish Forgotten Realms would vanish forever.
I played in the 1st Edition FR and loved it, in 1E Greyhawk as well. I thought it was a great move on the part of WotC to update the setting and include more choices for PC races.
But I do have a question for the OP: Have you actually played a session in the new realms? If you have, then cool, you tried it and didn't like it. But if it bothers you that much, then play homegames only and only include what you want in your version of the FR. If you play LFR, then you'll have to get used to the changes. Either way I didn't see anything worth getting upset about. Alot of the information pertaining to the "old" FR is still useful in the "new" FR, at least in a homegame anyway.
IMHO it's a good change.
Peace
My brother, who is a video game programmer, went to the Game Developer Conference in San Francisco a few years back. He ran into a Wizards Rep, I don't remember the guy's name. But, while there they got into a conversation revolving around minority gamers, which I'll refer to as gamers of color. The guy asked my brother what he believed needed to be done to make fantasy/sci-fi games, RPGs that is, more appealing to gamers of color.
My brother and I have had this conversation a time or two, and being in one entertainment related industry and I in another entertainment related industry, he called me. One of the things we've often discussed, and that I told him to talk to the guy about was that for gamers of color to usually take an interest in certain things, they need to see images that look like them. Now this is not to say gamers of color don't play RPGs because obviously some of us do. But, we're disproportionately the minority when it comes to RPGs as a whole, and especially tabletop RPGs. There's many other reasons behind this, which I know personally and have researched in-depth, but that's another discussion for another thread.
Anyway, many of the archetypal fantasy heroes, and indeed heroes in other genres and entertainment mediums, are mostly white males and some white females. There are a few exceptions but I stress few, especially in the realm of gaming. Allow me to use a sports example. If asked why they don't play or watch hockey, many Blacks, Asians, and Latinos will state that it's a white person's sport. This claim is made on the basis of not seeing many Blacks, Latinos, or Asians play the sport. Even Blacks/Hispanics/Asians who live in northern climes give this same response. Likewise, with gaming, these gamers of color don't see themselves in it thus feel no relational pull to the material presented. If you plastered darker-skinned heroes on the covers of these books and what not, you'd begin to see a larger interest from gamers of color. Is this all that's needed? No. But, again, that's another discussion. For reference, in the PHB, PHB2, FRCG, and FRPG these are the images of people of color I've found.
Pg.44 Black hafling, pg. 46, Asian human female, PHB2 pg. 7, Black gnome, pg. 94 druid, back cover, Black human female.
Ok. So what the hell does this long-winded post have to do with the new Realms, you're most likely asking by this point. Well, it would seem that any land that was home to people of color in the Realms has been either wiped out, decimated, or just completely poof'd. Chult, Maztica, Turmish, Calimshan, etc. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim racism here as I don't think that's the case at all. What I do believe is this is a racial oversight. People of a particular race tend to see and think in terms of their race. This isn't a bad thing per se, just obliviousness. We all do it. But, since the majority of the designers have typically been white males, these are the images, places, cultural references, etc., that are going to come out in their product.
Also, I do understand that the Forgotten Realms only loosely translates to some real world cultures and that it is a fantasy world. But, what I'm talking about is the images, places, and cultures which are derived from us and our own cultures. I just find it interesting that many of the places with the "fairer" skinned peoples stayed mostly intact, whereas those with mostly people of color didn't.
Not that this is a beef. It's simply an observation. Take it as you will.
, on the house.It's all new.
There's a very daunting amount of history involved with the Realms due to the popularity of the setting and the staggering number of canonical novels which have been published in the setting. There's more to Forgotten Realms novels than what R.A. Salvatore has provided us. ;)
2nd Edition dragged the realms kicking and screaming into its rules via the "Forgotten Realms Adventures" hardback, which updated the Realms to reflect the aftermath of the Godswar, the Time of Troubles.
3rd Edition didn't have a major event to drag the Realms into itself; it just sort of kept up with natural outflow from the Time of Troubles. There was a huge focus on drow, of course, due to Mr. Salvatore's successful novels (and a huge backlack against most any player who dared to try playing a drow Ranger who dual-wielded scimitars and had a Figurine of Wondrous Power: Onyx Panther as a magical item...), but in general there was just an update of the Realms into the 3rd Edition ruleset.
4th Edition acknowledged the intimidating amount of history of the setting, so it found the best of both worlds: acknowledge that the history happened, but arrange the world in such a way that a player who didn't know it wouldn't feel in the least impacted by their ignorance. How? It vaulted the entire setting forward 100 years, so all a given player needed to know to fully experience the Forgotten Realms was contained in the campaign setting book and the Player's Guide.
I think the current arrangement of the Realms is neat. I don't have a particular interest in Returned Abeir, as it has a flavor I don't personally find appealing, but it at least serves as a valid means of introducing dragonborn and genasi into the 4th Edition ruleset.
Well, it would seem that any land that was home to people of color in the Realms has been either wiped out, decimated, or just completely poof'd. Chult, Maztica, Turmish, Calimshan, etc. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim racism here as I don't think that's the case at all. What I do believe is this is a racial oversight. People of a particular race tend to see and think in terms of their race. This isn't a bad thing per se, just obliviousness. We all do it. But, since the majority of the designers have typically been white males, these are the images, places, cultural references, etc., that are going to come out in their product.
Also, I do understand that the Forgotten Realms only loosely translates to some real world cultures and that it is a fantasy world. But, what I'm talking about is the images, places, and cultures which are derived from us and our own cultures. I just find it interesting that many of the places with the "fairer" skinned peoples stayed mostly intact, whereas those with mostly people of color didn't.
Speaking as a person aware of issues regarding race and ethnicity (and gender), I personally found that many of these non-white cultures were more based on white men's dreams and clichees about non-western cultures rather than actual helping represent them. So, for me, any fantasy world with such cultures too closely related or ripped off the real world is more likely to represent the fantasies of a hegemonial group more than actually empowering. But then, I understand that you can find some common ground or visual appeal with these non-white-derived cultures which is not possible with the "fairer" skinned peoples as they were depicted in previous art.
Now, I believe the problem lies within the concept of the game and its representation in the accompanying art: Pre-3.X Generic and pre-4E FRs most default cultures were depicted as white and western - a miserable failure on the part of TSR (well, that and the depiction of women) and, in case of the 3.X Realms, WotC, even tho' I find that they were more aware of these issues than TSR.
However, I do concur that wiping the "coloured" places of the map can seem worrying. Methinks the best solution for this problem is for WotC to reinforce the image that a person of colour can come from any corner of the world and NOT only from a place a white guy chose to associate with a non-white culture. (Especially if the place is so negatively described as Maztica in the AD&D Trilogy). It is necessary to break up the hegemonial image of a fantasy culture being a predominately white affair. In short, if I can play a "coloured" Half-Elf from Icewind Dale wielding a halberd we have made more progress than by forcing me to base the same character in Calimshan just because of his skintone.
All in all, I bid the old Themepark Fantasy fare-thee-well, just because of all the stereotypes and clichees. Which is also one of the reasons why I welcome the 4E FR.* (The other being that with the overgrown fluff of the previous realms, you couldn't throw a brick without getting kicked in the a*** by some self-important NPC bugger who then offers you a pitance for a semi-epic quest he himself is too busy to deal with.)
Cheers!
Captn M.
PS: COMPLETELY OT:
Personally, I 'm far more worried by Games Workshop's Warhammer Fantasy Battles not representing any people of colour in their games or having any sensibly clad women for that matter. They have 3 distinct human cultures (Empire, Bretonia, Norse) for armies, and another being a hodgepodge of creatures and races (Tilean Dogs of War Mercenaries) which is the only one to contain a single human unit of non-old world(=european) origin (and which is icidentally based on the Lawrence of Arabia meme).
Personally, I 'm far more worried by Games Workshop's Warhammer Fantasy Battles not representing any people of colour in their games or having any sensibly clad women for that matter. They have 3 distinct human cultures (Empire, Bretonia, Norse) for armies, and another being a hodgepodge of creatures and races (Tilean Dogs of War Mercenaries) which is the only one to contain a single human unit of non-old world(=european) origin (and which is icidentally based on the Lawrence of Arabia meme).
If you actually look at the background presented, you'd see that the human cultures in Warhammer (primarily the Old World - we have very little information on realms beyond it) are analogues of late medieval/early renaissance Europe. The Empire is based on the Holy Roman Empire as of the 15th century, Bretonnia is 13th century France with elements of Arthurian legend thrown in, Norsca is the Viking stereotype, Tilea is 15th century Italy, Estalia is 14th century Spain and Portugal, Albion is pre-Roman Britain, Kislev is an amalgam of Poland and Russia in the 14th century... etc, etc.
There are acknowledged places beyond that region -a region that, per the cultures that inspired it are inherently going to be white and European - however. The aforementioned Araby (and the ancient Nehekharans - the undead remnants of an ancient Egyptian analogue culture), along with human beings of the Southlands (equivalent to sub-Saharan Africa), the Kingdoms of Ind (India, obviously), Imperial Cathay (China) and Nippon (Japan)... all of which are broad regions in their own right. they might not have released models for them, but producing a miniatures range and accompanying background from scratch is expensive and takes time and effort away from the maintenance of existing ranges... then again, Warhammer isn't solely a miniatures wargame - it's also the backdrop for a long-running RPG.
As for sensibly-clad women... again, look at the RPG. It largely consists of normal people wearing normal (period appropriate) clothes, with a few oddballs here and there wearing something entirely ludicrous... hell, most adventurers in WFRP look like normal people, primarily because they are - normal people in extraordinary situations, struggling against adversity, horror and corruption.
I'm not the biggest fan of political correctness. Including a "person of colour", or whatever the appropriate inoffensive term is this week, solely for the sake of including one, or worse just in case the audience gets offended is a frankly moronic notion, IMO, especially as such "token black" or similar characters and cultures almost always end up being poor stereotypes insulting to intelligence and common decency alike.
To the OP: you obviously never played in the original 1E Realms. Because if you did, you'd be used to these world-altering occurrences.
there is one huge difference: timeline. by advancing the timeline approx. 100 years into the future it makes it difficult to use the old material except as history. using FR 1e sources in FR 35e was not that difficult.
luc
there is one huge difference: timeline. by advancing the timeline approx. 100 years into the future it makes it difficult to use the old material except as history. using FR 1e sources in FR 35e was not that difficult.
luc
Excepting of course when the new stuff totally overwrote the old and made it useless. See Time of Troubles, the return of Bane, the various changes at Myth Dranor etc etc. Time skips are actually better because you can ignore the changes completely, since they won't happen for 100 years.
Seriously, I've wished that L5R would do a time skip for it's setting. It'd be nice to have an Emperor die of natural causes at the end of his reign for once. Maybe let the heroes of the old saga tie up their loose ends instead of drifting off into lameness.
I'm not saying this is conscious racism or racism at all. My overall point above was the question was asked about how to bring more gamers of color over to RPGs. One of the answers given was to include more images that these gamers can relate to. I don't believe subtracting all of the places which bear these images, and only including five such images in 4 books you want these players to purchase, goes a long way toward doing that.
The Forgotten Realms has never included many images of people of color, which is not politically correct term by the way. Try calling somebody in the U.S. that's Black, colored. I'll wager they won't be welcoming you into their homes anytime soon. ;) But, 4E could have done a bit more to bridge the gap and attract more gamers of color. But, the 4E Realms has done just the opposite. Again, images are only one part of the equation, but they're a huge part.
Women have, of course, been traditionally portrayed very one-dimensionally. Again, this, along with no darker-skinned heroes, is a product of a predominantly white male designed and played game. As I said before, it's a racial oversight. Could the 4E Realms have turned Mezro (Chult) into a cosmoplitan city as they did with Baldur's Gate? Sure. Could they have had many of the Chultans or Mazticans migrate to various cities in Tethyr, Amn, and further up the Swordcoast? Yep. Or, could they have simply put more pictures of darker-skinned fighters, mages, rogues, etc. in their books? Yeah. Do you hurt your product by doing this? I don't think so. Actually, I believe quite the opposite. It would only serve to possibly encourage more of these types of gamers to pick up and at least look at your product as they see images of magic and sword-wielding heroes that look like them.
First, I agree with others that world altering changes are nothing new to FR. However, from a position of personal preference, I found the manner in which FR was remade very very very UNPALATABLE. The destruction of the civilizations of Mezro, Samarach and Thindol, while leaving Fort Belurian and Port Nyranzaru, was disappointing and caused me to switch my campaign focus to MERPS/I.C.E. Southern Harad.
Second, not all regions of "color" were hit. The Hordelands, Durpur, Turmish, Calisham, the Shou parts of the Dragon Coast and some Mulani remnants remain, while arguable "european" based halfling, gnome regions and Chondathan regions were scathed.
Third, I personally find "race neutral" gameworlds such as Eberron much more offensive than ethnocentric gameworlds. I find that such worlds give lip service that humans come in all colors but focus on european based cultural ideas. Accordingly, they tend to use non-human races in place of ethnic cultural groups. Just using people of color in illustrations without a cogent explanation of why such variations exist does not work for me. I would never play in an Eberron campaign.
The reality of this genre is that two of the main pioneers, Tolkien and Howard, were extremely ethnocentric in presenting races and cultures and clearly products of their times. However, I have no problem with ethnocentricities, particular when they are presented as being based on the perceptions of certain peoples. For example, I take more of an issue with FRCG saying stating in reference to Chult "a few tribes-some noble savages, others depraved cannibals-roam the interior," then a statement that Amnians believe Chult to be a land of savages and ripe for exploitation.
As for n0-1_H3r3's point concerning the Warhammer World..I would have no problem with that world because you can always play a character of color whom came from unknown, but clearly existing, parts.
If Wizards is trying to make the setting race neutral, after the great job they did for presenting human variation in books like Races of Faerun, it would be a grave mistake.
After that, I couldn't have cared less what 4e was going to do to the Realms and was open to the possibility that, however it may happen, 4e would make the Realms a better setting overall.
Mission accomplished.
To the first topic about whether or not the new FR campaign setting sucks or not? This is a matter of opinion, so results will vary from gamer to gamer. IMO the new Realms does suck when compared with previous editions. It seems to me like an redo just for the sake of new edition rules crunch. I am in the mindset that this process should work in the reverse way. In defense of the change however I will say that the 3.x FR setting really did feel "complete" to me, and I am not sure which would have been worse honestly: paying for a new realms I may not care all that much for, or paying for the same realms a third time. So while I do not particularly care for the changes that were made, I do feel that changes NEEDED to be made in order for new FR product.
As to the topic of gamers of color and the removal of imaginary places that those people lived in FR. That notion seems silly to me. Its art about fantasy, and imagined places. Its sort of on the same lines as the OP. If you want stories with characters who "look" like you, then play them or tell stories with those types of folks abound.
Storytelling and fantasy roleplay is about relaxation and hanging out with folks you care about to me. I don't really feel like if I don't imagine all the different types of folks in the world into my games equally that there is a problem with that.
My gaming groups have a whole gang of folks from a whole range of backgrounds. I got folks of various races from all over the world, I play with members of both sexes, I've game with kids, I game with got adults, I game with doctors, I game with addicts, I game with straight folks, I game with gay folks.
And you know what? None of them care about the stereotypes used to describe them being present in the art of fiction present in the rulebooks. They care about interacting with each other in a meaningful way and the stories they are creating. The gay players in my group don't feel like WOTC needs to add more imagery of queers into their books to cater to them, nor do any of the other "gamers of color" that I play with. Nor do any of them feel that any specific art or depictions based of race/religion/gender/orientation would have made the game more accessible to them (we had a similar conversation as a group last weekend that lasted all day).
What got them into the game was their friends was the final verdict that we arrived to. If your real group of real people playing games does not play with certain types of folks, then those folks just aren't going to be present in the culture that your group experiences.
In other words the real choices of the players behind the groups to include a variety of players is what IMO spreads this hobby to other folks, not the correct ratio of art depicting people of a particular race. I am in the opinion that some of the areas that got the axe were silly to the point of stereotyping those cultures and races even further. Which I think marginalizes the types of characters folks would envision for "characters of color"
Not trying to sink your ship entirely, I just feel like your missing the point of fantasy. It has nothing to do with the color of skin, it has to do with the sharing of ideas. I do community outreach work, and one of the things I do is run D&D and other boardgames with kids who are in the state system for whatever reason, so perhaps my idea of what is important for "minority gamers" comes from different roots than your own. I play in some games where "minority gamers" aren't in the minority at all. And it has been my experience from years of playing with folks that the color of skin, in art or sitting around the table chucking dice, has nothing to do with the spirit of storytelling, unless you as people make it to be so.
If I can run a game for a melting pot of folks from all over and then run the same game for a group of folks who are all very similar and everyone from both groups is having fun, then does it truly matter that there aren't enough black gnomes in the PHB?
The thing I love about games like D&D (or any story telling game for that matter)is that you can put folks who for whatever reason society puts forth, might not have ever spoken a word to each other, and put them in a room and with a few sessions they are communicating with each other like gangbusters. These learned communication skills over time extend beyond the scope of the game and often help these folks to partake in dynamic forms of communication and personal growth that they may not have ever come to on their own.
Participating in this communication and watching others improve their social skills is why after decades I still play these games. It has nothing to do with any picture presented to me in a book ;)
love,
malkav
If I run a 4E FR campaign, it will likely be the same deal: I'll take the first boxed set, reread it for ideas, advance the timeline forward a good deal and then start doing whatever I like...
The setting is so horrible that it makes me wish Forgotten Realms would vanish forever.
There are many who have always felt this way. But tell us, why are you only now coming to this conclusion? Is the recent butchering of the setting differently bad than the past hatchet jobs?
Disclaimer 1: I would not go onto the Forgotten Realms Board and post this comment. It is only at the invitation of the General population to comment in an otherwise seemingly Realms-specific thread that I do so.
Disclaimer 2: Disclaimers are excuses for saying in front of the reader what you would not say in front of your grandmother. :D
Second, not all regions of "color" were hit. The Hordelands, Durpur, Turmish, Calisham, the Shou parts of the Dragon Coast and some Mulani remnants remain, while arguable "european" based halfling, gnome regions and Chondathan regions were scathed.
Actually, every area you named above was seriously affected by the Spellplague to the point of being unrecognizable. The Hordelands are a slight exception but the Lake of Mist area got hit pretty hard. And, the Shou didn't move to the Dragon Coast until years after the Spellplague.
For example, I take more of an issue with FRCG saying stating in reference to Chult "a few tribes-some noble savages, others depraved cannibals-roam the interior," then a statement that Amnians believe Chult to be a land of savages and ripe for exploitation.
If Wizards is trying to make the setting race neutral, after the great job they did for presenting human variation in books like Races of Faerun, it would be a grave mistake.
[Speculation] This is a situation where in the Wizards DnD studios they probably have somewhere between 1 and 4 minority individuals that are actual designers. I'm basing those numbers off of animation and game production houses. These individuals probably don't have much say so in the direction a specific storyline goes in. Thus, they are unable to tell the story from their own perspective.[/Speculation]
So, again, what dominates is the white male perspective and their interpretation of the world. They will paint people of color as they see them not necessarily as they actually are. This occurs in nearly every form of mainstream entertainment there is. It's simply because there currently aren't enough opportunities for people of color to tell their stories from their perspective. By extension, gamers of color aren't going to see images of themselves, nor will they see positive, non-stereotypical representations of them as a people and their culture.
The guy my brother talked to may not even work for Wizards anymore. I have no clue. But, don't ask what can be done to attract more gamers of color then turn around and do many things that are counter to that, which I believe the 4E Realms has done. Even, if it hadn't, it certainly has done nothing to endear itself to gamers of color who don't already play.
Overall, there's some good stuff in the 4E Realms if you actually take time to read up on it. There's also some things that appear to me to be entirely arbitrary or done as an unnecessary attempt to fit the new ruleset in. I don't mind the New Realms. I don't agree with, nor do I like everything that was done. But, I certainly don't dislike it, or disagree with everything that was done either.
I don't disagree with you at all, and even stated as much about the game being a fantasy game and such in my first post, I believe. However, this isn't about whether I care about the representations of people of color, or lack thereof. As I also state, I've always played Black characters or drow. So, I was fine. So, I don't miss the point of fantasy at all.
But, this came up because a Wizards of the Coast Representative asked my brother what he believed could be done to attract more gamers of color. So, from that standpoint, those representations or lack thereof are key elements as to pulling in these types of gamers. Omit images of them, portray them in stereotypical fashion, or negative light, and they'll never even bother to look at your product, let alone buy it, or play it.
That's essentially all I was saying. This is just my response to the Wizard's guy about what not to do to alienate gamers you're trying to attract, and what to do in order to bring them into the fold.
:evillaugh
-M
I'm not the biggest fan of political correctness. Including a "person of colour", or whatever the appropriate inoffensive term is this week, solely for the sake of including one, or worse just in case the audience gets offended is a frankly moronic notion, IMO, especially as such "token black" or similar characters and cultures almost always end up being poor stereotypes insulting to intelligence and common decency alike.
And I'm not the biggest fan of people who sling around insults like 'political correctness', just to pretend they're not the ones being hypersensitive and easily offended (but their opponents are). Especially because the people who cry 'political correctness!' are usually the first to take offence whenever someone uses words like 'racist', 'sexist', or 'homophobic', despite these terms being at least somewhat constructive.
Inaubryyn brings up a relevant point, that of human nature. It is human nature to instinctively identify most with people who look like oneself, especially for first impressions, just ask anyone with experience in fields like psychology and marketing. Trying to turn the debate into a moral crusade against the idea of being inoffensive wont change that. A few people aren't as affected by this, and even more people are eager to pretend they aren't, but studies consistently show that for most people, even those who claim, or strive, to be colour- or gender-blind, there's a bigger attraction to people who look like themselves.
Old post of mine about the subject
I am once again reminded of how handball went from being a 'boy-sport' to a 'girl-sport' in Denmark about a decade ago. My father has told me that when he was a boy, handball was considered a sport mostly for boys, while both sexes (the children anyway) played football. Today, it's usually the other way around, and the reason can probably be found back in 1994 when the Danish women's handball team won the European championship.
In a country this small, there's usually a rather large focus on any sport where Danes do good (at least ball games, less so in sports like rowing and shot put), which means we'll get bombarded with talk and images about this sport and the national team. In this case, it meant a huge focus on Denmark's "Iron Ladies", and subsequent idolatry, which only increased when the team won Olympic gold 2 years later, and the world championship after that. In the mid- and late 90s it seemed like practically every (normal) teenaged girl had started to play handball (despite the fact that football would probably fit better to the average female physique).
The point is that it took no more than some role-models for a sport to go from being considered masculine, to something girls did significantly more often than boys. That's how it is with a lot of things – even if we can objectively tell ourselves that the qualities required to do, and enjoy, something, are not specific to one sex, or race, or socio-economical and cultural background, most people still refrain from activities that appear heavily dominated by another group. Maybe they don't think it looks interesting, maybe they believe it's too hard, maybe they just never even consider it – and while they rarely say directly that it's because of the role-models (if they're even aware of it), there's nonetheless a correlation.
You probably wouldn't hear a teenage girl in 1991 say "I don't play handball because that's for boys/because I don't have any female role-models", and neither would you hear one in 1997 say "I play handball because I have female role-models/because it's a girl-sport", though in this case, she might admit she'd been inspired by the national team. Nevertheless, the difference in participation from when women's handball was just like every other (women's) sport, to when the players became national heroes and handball games were shown and talked about frequently, is staggering.
The same for fiction – when I look back at my childhood, and the cartoons we ('we' being the girls from my class, my street, my family, my parents' friend's daughters etc.) preferred, it was usually the episodes with a large focus on female characters. It probably wasn't (and isn't) the most important aspect of what made a good cartoon, but because females were easier to identify with, and were so heavily under-represented (1/4 was a large amount), it felt like a huge boon when they were finally in the spotlight. The episodes weren't always what I'd consider the best, but because females were otherwise sorely lacking, they simply felt good at that time.
Basically, if you want girls to play a sport, show them a lot of women playing it (and getting admired for it). If you want girls to watch your cartoon, put female characters in it (as evidenced by the myriad of female-focussed cartoons, marketed towards girls, that we have today). If you want to girls to play your roleplaying game, show female players and female roles.
Speaking as a person aware of issues regarding race and ethnicity (and gender), I personally found that many of these non-white cultures were more based on white men's dreams and clichees about non-western cultures rather than actual helping represent them. So, for me, any fantasy world with such cultures too closely related or ripped off the real world is more likely to represent the fantasies of a hegemonial group more than actually empowering.
(I hope responding to the second 'topic' in the thread isn't going too OT)
Personally, I don't see what's so terrible about basing a region in the fantasy world off a real world culture. Is it wrong to draw inspiration from these sources and every fantasy world should just be a melting pot?
Is it okay to base regions off dead cultures? Or could this be seen as a worrying thing as well?
The only problem I can see is if the sole portrayal of this fantasy derived culture is a racist stereotype or cliche. However, any stereotype or cliche, whether it's racial or not, is a terrible idea for and design.
Well thats great for you. I have been a fan of the realms myself for a really really long time. I feel that they messed up the realms in order to bring in the Dragonborn and Tieflings and change the realms around to fit the difference in Elves and Eldadrin. This mess about a returned Abeir is horrible and the Spellplague in my opinion isn't very good either. I feel that the realms was going in a good direction back in 3rd edition.
So...use the "old" Forgotten Realms. Problem solved.
Good part about 4E? If you want to use pre-4E material, all your old FR books still function perfectly fine for fluff.
Good part about 3E? If you want to use post-3E material, all those new FR books will function perfectly fine for fluff.
Ok, that was pedantic. But the point should be clear: this is not a "good part" about any edition. It's simply an edition-neutral fact that applies to all editions, not an expressly built-in feature.
Seriously, I've wished that L5R would do a time skip for it's setting.
I wouldn't mind that myself, but I don't see it happening. It wouldn't work with the "tournament wins determine events" setup, unless perhaps they set up a new mega-event for it. That'd have to be even more involved than the RftT though and will be even harder to pull off properly.
why are they so important?
novel characters aren't a good reason to dislike a setting...
why are they so important?
Because Elminster is a walking Deus ex Machina and Drizzt is a dark-skinned Marty Stu, and both have been intertwined into many of the major events of the setting... that's why. It's one of the things that started to bother me about later parts of Dark Sun (after Sadira became a sun mage... holy crap).
Because Elminster is a walking Deus ex Machina and Drizzt is a dark-skinned Marty Stu, and both have been intertwined into many of the major events of the setting... that's why. It's one of the things that started to bother me about later parts of Dark Sun (after Sadira became a sun mage... holy crap).
In the past, every FR game I've ever been involved in has had one of three things happen:
1. As soon as the PCs are presented with a problem, they go running to whomever is the nearest over-powered famous NPC in the area or
2. The DM intentionally puts the party in over its head so he can have the nearest over-powered famous NPC swoop in and bail out the party.
Apparently, both of these are considered appropriate behavior thanks to FR's silly policy of having the novels be canon.
And finally,
3. The DM uses a famous character as an antagonist and is such a fanboy of the character and slave to canon that he will not allow the PCs to defeat him/her/it.
There are many who have always felt this way. But tell us, why are you only now coming to this conclusion? Is the recent butchering of the setting differently bad than the past hatchet jobs?
Disclaimer 1: I would not go onto the Forgotten Realms Board and post this comment. It is only at the invitation of the General population to comment in an otherwise seemingly Realms-specific thread that I do so.
Disclaimer 2: Disclaimers are excuses for saying in front of the reader what you would not say in front of your grandmother. :D
I feel like the Realms were butchered just to fit with the 4th edition system. The Realms IMHO seem to be getting out of wack. I mean come on Mystra dying once again??? Jesus how many times did they really have to kill her. What about Halaster, a character that has been there for ages and was one of the most powerful mages in Faerun? Please don't get me started on the Spell Plague. I have seen, if I am not mistaken, another game or story or something that had that same sort of idea before the Realms did. And according to the new rules Elminster should be a Demi-god or ascended to a higher plane of existance, but no they drop his powers to keep him in the Realms. Like I said before the Realms were changed just to fit 4th edition.
I feel like the Realms were butchered just to fit with the 4th edition system. The Realms IMHO seem to be getting out of wack. I mean come on Mystra dying once again??? Jesus how many times did they really have to kill her. And according to the new rules Elminster should be a Demi-god or ascended to a higher plane of existance, but no they drop his powers to keep him in the Realms. Like I said before the Realms were changed just to fit 4th edition.
Kinda like how the realms were changed just to fit 2nd and 3rd Edition?
Well OP, you now have complete creative control to do whatever you like to FR setting. Kind of like you have always had. Without the rude, snobbish tude of so many others who have pointed this out, feel free to not use the new setting and use the old. It's your story to tell now and i wish you the best of luck with it.
But the bad thing is I always just enjoyed reading the realms rule books. I enjoyed reading about all the dungeons and ancient cities that were spread out around the realms. Now, the reading isn't fun or interesting anymore.
Kinda like how the realms were changed just to fit 2nd and 3rd Edition?
Mmm not really.
Mmm not really.
How so? For 2nd Edition, they made all the gods walk the earth. For 3rd Edition, they killed off a bunch of them and sent them back into the upper planes. That's not even touching on the largest amount of changes that occurred. What is so dramatic about this that wasn't dramatic about previous epoch shifts, other than the 100 year timeskip?
Well...I just lost that bet that one day could go by without this ridiculous statement being brought up...thanks alot.
To the OP: you obviously never played in the original 1E Realms. Because if you did, you'd be used to these world-altering occurrences.
Simple...if you don't like it, don't play it...and leave those of us quite content with it in peace.
Actually I have. I have been playing D&D for 24 years. Forgotten Realms and Spelljammer were my two favorites. I don't like what the realms has become.
How so? For 2nd Edition, they made all the gods walk the earth. For 3rd Edition, they killed off a bunch of them and sent them back into the upper planes. That's not even touching on the largest amount of changes that occurred. What is so dramatic about this that wasn't dramatic about previous epoch shifts, other than the 100 year timeskip?
Hmmm lets see. The killing of Mystra, Tyr and a lot of other gods and goddesses. The killing of the Phaerimm(which I loved those guys), an ancient Aboleth city that pretty much houses Cthuhlu and the rest of the Old Ones, A supposed second world to Toril merging with the original and causing havoc, the underdark caving in, the seven sisters dead, the spellplague, Halruaa destroyed, Thay an undead realm, Anaurach back to the way it was etc.. etc... etc... All with in the blink of an eye to an elf and a dragon.
Hmmm lets see. The killing of Mystra, Tyr and a lot of other gods and goddesses. The killing of the Phaerimm(which I loved those guys), an ancient Aboleth city that pretty much houses Cthuhlu and the rest of the Old Ones, A supposed second world to Toril merging with the original and causing havoc, the underdark caving in, the seven sisters dead, the spellplague, Halruaa destroyed, Thay an undead realm, Anaurach back to the way it was etc.. etc... etc... All with in the blink of an eye to an elf and a dragon.
Could someone a little more versed in realms lore find examples that are close to all these that happened within a human lifetime back in the old realms. All I got so far is the Time of Troubles murdering a whole bunch of Gods, our good friend the Shadow Weave popping up, and the Zhentarim issues that came along with Cyric. But I'm sure you could go one for one here.
Hmmm lets see. The killing of Mystra, Tyr and a lot of other gods and goddesses. The killing of the Phaerimm(which I loved those guys), an ancient Aboleth city that pretty much houses Cthuhlu and the rest of the Old Ones, A supposed second world to Toril merging with the original and causing havoc, the underdark caving in, the seven sisters dead, the spellplague, Halruaa destroyed, Thay an undead realm, Anaurach back to the way it was etc.. etc... etc... All with in the blink of an eye to an elf and a dragon.
Let's see, in the 2nd Edition shift we had:
- Gods walk the earth
- Maztica is discovered, adding a whole new continent.
- Arcane magic became very random.
- Divine magic only worked within a vicinity from your god.
Then in 3rd Edition:
- Bane, Bhaal, Gilgeam, Ibrandul, Leira, Moander, Myrkul, Mystra, Ramman, Tiamat's three-headed incarnation and The Red Knight are all killed.
- The new gods Cyric, Kelemvor, Finder are created, and a new Mystra appears.
- Gods return to outer planes.
- Thultanthar returned to Faerûn.
- The entire Great Wheel cosmology is eliminated from the realms.
- Lolth removes the Demonweb pits from the Abyss.
- Creation of the Shadow Weave
And those are just the things that a moderate realms fan like me knew off the top of my head.
Again... it's no more dramatic than any other change that has occurred in the realms. The realms was practically made from it's cataclysmic shifts.
But I think what's really going on is you just need something -- anything -- to rage about. The actual topic is probably incidental.
However, I do concur that wiping the "coloured" places of the map can seem worrying. Methinks the best solution for this problem is for WotC to reinforce the image that a person of colour can come from any corner of the world and NOT only from a place a white guy chose to associate with a non-white culture. (Especially if the place is so negatively described as Maztica in the AD&D Trilogy).
It's entirely up to the kind of world you have. Back in dark ages, you didn't see many white people in Asia, nor did you see many black people in europe or asian in africa.
In fact, for many setting, it is a lot more logical that the people of the same skin color come from the same place... because that's how it actually work in the real world too. It's only if your setting has access to massive travel or has a rich history of colonization and settlings that it makes sense for the world to be a 'melting pot'.
You also have to understand that this is a trap for the average 'white rpg designer' - if he doesn't put any 'colored' people on the map, he's a racist. If he puts 'colored people' he's told he's stereotyping. If he makes it all cosmopolitan, than he has to choose between making his setting make no sense or compromising his vision until the setting can rationally explain it.
It is necessary to break up the hegemonial image of a fantasy culture being a predominately white affair. In short, if I can play a "coloured" Half-Elf from Icewind Dale wielding a halberd we have made more progress than by forcing me to base the same character in Calimshan just because of his skintone.
Why is it necessary?
Political Correctness doesn't necessary has its place in fantasy.
Because Elminster is a walking Deus ex Machina and Drizzt is a dark-skinned Marty Stu, and both have been intertwined into many of the major events of the setting... that's why. It's one of the things that started to bother me about later parts of Dark Sun (after Sadira became a sun mage... holy crap).
This reminds me about what I liked about Dragonlance novel characters. While they did have important roles in the major events of the setting, none of them are walking Deus ex Machinas. Except maybe for Raistlin, but he took the long road in becoming one, was only interested in achieving godhood, and ended turning it down in the end.
In the past, every FR game I've ever been involved in has had one of three things happen:
1. As soon as the PCs are presented with a problem, they go running to whomever is the nearest over-powered famous NPC in the area or
2. The DM intentionally puts the party in over its head so he can have the nearest over-powered famous NPC swoop in and bail out the party.
Apparently, both of these are considered appropriate behavior thanks to FR's silly policy of having the novels be canon.
And finally,
3. The DM uses a famous character as an antagonist and is such a fanboy of the character and slave to canon that he will not allow the PCs to defeat him/her/it.
Which confort my opinion that the realms are great as long as you don't play with regular realms players/DM.
Because Elminster was a walking Deus ex Machina
Fixed.
Fixed.
Ah, impatient one... he still lives. Give him time, and he will be a walking Deus ex Machina once again.
I'm not sure what the fuss is; they've remodeled the Realms before for different editions.
Not nearly to the extent that they remodeled it this time. That is what the fuss is about (whether you think it's warranted or not).
Because Elminster is a walking Deus ex Machina and Drizzt is a dark-skinned Marty Stu, and both have been intertwined into many of the major events of the setting... that's why.
Elminster, I'm generously going to give you--he's not a DEM*, but he has been involved with a lot of major events in the setting. But Drizzt? In spite of being a powerful warrior, his adventures actually aren't all that major on the grand scale of the setting. He mainly affects the North, and even then, not that much. He definitely has not been "intertwined into many of the major of events of the setting." Going by his novels, that statement is just wrong.
In the past, every FR game I've ever been involved in has had one of three things happen:
1. As soon as the PCs are presented with a problem, they go running to whomever is the nearest over-powered famous NPC in the area or
2. The DM intentionally puts the party in over its head so he can have the nearest over-powered famous NPC swoop in and bail out the party.
The problem was with the DM and players. It's that simple.
Apparently, both of these are considered appropriate behavior thanks to FR's silly policy of having the novels be canon.
No, see above.
*If you think he is, please explain why.
Then in 3rd Edition:
[*]Bane, Bhaal, Gilgeam, Ibrandul, Leira, Moander, Myrkul, Mystra, Ramman, Tiamat's three-headed incarnation and The Red Knight are all killed.
[*]The new gods Cyric, Kelemvor, Finder are created, and a new Mystra appears.
[*]Gods return to outer planes.
That was all 2E.
The Red Knight is still around.
And those are just the things that a moderate realms fan like me knew off the top of my head.
You did not know it, as you were incorrect.
*yawn* This is the same old tired nerd-rage that people spewed when the Forgotten Realms went through the Time of Troubles with the Avatar series of novels. Only there wasn't an Internet back then so we didn't have to wade through it like we do now.
You don't have to read or post here. Nerd-rage can't be worse than masochism.
Please someone tell me why in all that is mighty did they completely butcher the Forgotten Realms setting???? The setting is so horrible that it makes me wish Forgotten Realms would vanish forever.
-WotC gathered data, and implemented it in a way they thought made sense, and would allow them to make the most money. It's as easy as that. If you don't like it, like so many other people don't, don't use it.
-I'm not even going to go back and bother correcting so many factual errors that have been made by various posters in this thread here before it was moved.
2. Published settings need occasional resets. If they don't get them, they slowly become more and more of a cult fandom. The dedicated fans who know all of the lore love the setting, but the general fans rarely want to invest the time and effort necessary to catch up. A reset enrages the dedicated fans, but gathers in the general fans.
Yeah, I'm not so seen on having to read 50+ books (including the novels) just to get my Eberron facts right, so I'm expecting them to hit Eberron with the Mournplague or something and shifting the timeline into far future, because it's badly in need of a reset from my perspective. And hopefully they get rid of the cosmology as well, so that it's 100% compatible with the core rules...
WoTC, give me a "fluff"-light Eberron, or I won't buy it -- here's too much "burden of lore" at the moment for me to pick it up!
Yeah, I'm not so seen on having to read 50+ books (including the novels) just to get my Eberron facts right, so I'm expecting them to hit Eberron with the Mournplague or something and shifting the timeline into far future, because it's badly in need of a reset from my perspective. And hopefully they get rid of the cosmology as well, so that it's 100% compatible with the core rules...
WoTC, give me a "fluff"-light Eberron, or I won't buy it -- here's too much "burden of lore" at the moment for me to pick it up!
Yeah, actually I feel the same way. I never could get into Eberron, so that means it's badly in need of a lore re-set.
Yeah, I'm not so seen on having to read 50+ books (including the novels) just to get my Eberron facts right, so I'm expecting them to hit Eberron with the Mournplague or something and shifting the timeline into far future, because it's badly in need of a reset from my perspective. And hopefully they get rid of the cosmology as well, so that it's 100% compatible with the core rules...
WoTC, give me a "fluff"-light Eberron, or I won't buy it -- here's too much "burden of lore" at the moment for me to pick it up!
******
Yeah, actually I feel the same way. I never could get into Eberron, so that means it's badly in need of a lore re-set.
Acutally, theres no need. In Eberron the novels are separate from the gameing aspect so no worries about authors creating/destroying something you've liked about the setting nor is there a reason to "wipe it clean" because it's already pretty lore-lite. There might be some ret-cons concerning Eladrin/Elves but it's inevitable with the new rules.
Grats on setting ppl straight.
Now we need entirely new sourcebooks, since everyone is dead and most of the geography/locales have been altered... and we aren't even getting any.
Also, the retcons are far more major with this edition IMHO, then ever before. Previous changes left me with a bad taste in my mouth. This time I seriously considered walking away from FR for good. They didn't just change the people and places... they changed the flavor.
That feeling of 'ancient' and 'archaic' is all gone now, because all that history is now IN YOUR FACE. I want to explore Nethereae and Imaskari ruins... not hang out with them!
Like Diffan said most of the novels for EB are not canon so that setting may not have the same "problem" that FR has after 20+ years of published lore.
Maybe it will after 20+ years. Who knows? Not a big deal. This is just a game and we are just on the internet.
(Old books are still useful because people can always play a game set in that era. Imagination is a wonderful thing)
Calishites: Shorter and slighter in build than most other humans, Calishites have dusky brown skin, hair, and eyes. They are primarily found in the Border Kingdoms, the Lake of Steam cities, the Nelanther Isles and Calimshan.
Chondathans: Slender with hair that ranges from anywhere from brown, to blond and almost black, Chondathans are tawny-skinned folk. They are spread throughout most of the western and central Inner Sea region and much of the Western Heartlands. More directly they make up the primary ethnicities of Altumbel, Cormyr, the southern Dalelands, the Dragon Coast, the Great Dale, Hlondeth and most shores of the Vilhon Reach, the Pirate isles of the Inner Sea, Sembia, and Sespech. (Most regard them as "white" but I will point out that tawny is described as "a dark yellowish or dull yellowish-brown color.")
Damarans: They are of a moderate height and build, with skin hues ranging from tawny to fair. Their hair is usually brown or black, and their eye color varies widely, though brown is most common. They are the primary ethnicity of Damara, Impiltur, Thesk, and the Vast.
Illuskans: They are tall, fair skinned folk with blue or steely gray eyes. Their hair color tends toward blond, red, or light brown. They are primarily found in the northern parts of the Sword Coast, the Trackless Sea, the Dessarin river valley, south of the Spine of the World (where raven-black hair is the most common).
Mulan: They are generally tall, slim, and sallow skinned, with eyes of hazel or brown. Their hair ranges from brown to dark brown, but many (mostly nobles) routinely shave off all their hair. This ethnic group primarily dominates the eastern shores of the Sea of Fallen stars, and at various times in their long history, they have made up the ruling elite of Ashanath, Chessenta, the Eastern Shaar, Murghom, Rashemen, Semphar, Thay, Thesk and the Wizard's Reach cities south of the Yuirwood.
Rashemis: This is the dominant ethnic group of Rashemen and Thay, and also form significant minorities in Aglarond, the Endless Wastes, Thesk, and the Wizards' Reach region. They tend to be short, stout, and muscular, and they usually have dusky skin, dark eyes, and thick black hair.
Tethyrians: They are of medium build and height, with dusky skin that grows fairer the farther north they dwell. Their hair and eye color varies widely, but brown hair and blue eyes are the most common. They inhabit a vast territory stretching from Calimshan to Silverymoon, and from the Sea of Swords to the Sea of Fallen Stars.
Other Human Ethnicities: There are many other ethnic groups ranging from the Bedine nomads of the Anauroch, the tribes of Chult, the Durpari of the Shining South, the Ffolk of the Moonshae Isles, the Gur nomads of the Western Heartlands, the Halruaans, the ancient Imaskari, the Lanatanna people of the southern islands of the Sea of swords, the Maztican peoples, the Nar descendants of ancient Narfell, the ancient Netherese peoples, the Raumvirans of the Lake of Mists region, the Shaaran nomads of the Shaar, the Shou and other peoples of Kara Tur, the Sossrims of the far northeast, the lost Talfir of the Western Heartlands, the Tashalan people of the Tashtan Coast, the Tuigan nomads of the Endless Wastes, the Turami of Turmish, the Ulutiuns of the farthest northern reaches, the Vaasans of the Moonsea and Vaasa, and the native people of Zakhara.
Of the seven major ethnicities we'd consider the following to be "white" (with skin colors ranging from tan to white): Illuskans, Damarans, and northern Tethyrians. Of the three, Illuskans are definitely the most "white" as the other two have a larger skin-tone range from "tawny" or "dusky" to "fair."
Of the seven we'd consider the following to be "black" (with skin tones ranging from light brown to darker shades): Calishites, Rashemis, and southern Tethyrians.
Of the rest they are mostly described as either "sallow" (yellowish in color) or "tawny" (a shade of brown tinged with yellow).
Those who are described as having "tawny" skin colors are Chondathans and some Damarans. I would say that "tawny" may cover the skin color for someone from either the Middle East or Latin America. Most people consider Cormyr and the southern Dalelands to be "white" - they aren't. They are described as being "tawny."
Those who are described as having "sallow" skin colors are Mulan. I would say that that is most definitely Middle Eastern.
I should also point out that skin color doesn't likely play a large part in the Realms as it does in the real world. Where you are from and your culture matters much more. Additionally, you can find people of virtually every ethnicity throughout Faerûn. There is literally thousands of years of history where people are displaced by war, magical disaster, magical relocation, trade, collapsing empires - you name it.
So while you may have Chondathans as the dominant ethnicity in places like Cormyr, the Southern Dalelands, and the Dragon Coast, that doesn't mean you won't find any or just a few in Thay. The seven I listed are found virtually in every major city, especially if it is a trade city.
Because of this, regardless of what took place between 3rd and 4th edition every single ethnicity is still in existence in 4E FR, even if their homeland is not, and for the most part are still dominant. The only ethnicity that most likely suffered the most (besides Maztican which actually has a stronger presence on Faerûn than in previous editions, mostly in Amn) are the Mulan, though I would say that they still have a sizable minority in many places, particularly Aglarond, Thesk and many new and former port cities throughout the Sea of Fallen Stars.
Nobody has set anyone straight. Some people like FR and some do not. Some that do not like it have played it at one point and have been turned off to it by playing with a few bad DMs/Players. This does not make it a minority/majority of players. People are just voicing their opinions.
Like Diffan said most of the novels for EB are not canon so that setting may not have the same "problem" that FR has after 20+ years of published lore.
Maybe it will after 20+ years. Who knows? Not a big deal. This is just a game and we are just on the internet.
(Old books are still useful because people can always play a game set in that era. Imagination is a wonderful thing)
Last I checked, none of the Eberron novels are canon, which is as it should be. Everything you need to run a game should be in the game books, not the game books and novels.
This was never about race per se, for me. But, to go along on your tangent for just a sec.
Of the major ethnicities four are white, Chondathan (who incidentally make up the largest population of peoples across Faerun), Damarans, Illuskans, and Tethyrian.
Of the remaining major ethnic groups and their locales.
Mulan (Chessenta, Chondalwood, Mulhorand, Thay, Unther)
From the 4E FRCG:
Chessenta: "Despite half the nation being devastated by a
cast-off piece of Abeir, elements of the former Chessenta
survive and even prosper. Although many
Chessentan cities were destroyed in this tumultuous
transposition, others survived and accepted refugees
from the obliterated lands of Chondath, Unther, and
even Mulhorand. The country involuntarily ceded all
its western lands, those most radically altered in the
Year of Blue Fire, to the Abeiran genasi of Akanûl."
Thay: "Thay was once a living land...
During the Spellplague, the Plateau of Thay rose
thousands of feet, shattering the land and causing the
Thaymount to erupt. Debris from melting glaciers on
Thaymount spread more destruction. While these
catastrophes raged, Szass Tam made himself the
land’s regent."
Everywhere the Mulan resided was either vastly changed, destroyed, or both.
Calishites: (range all over. But, most were concentrated in Calimshan)
Calimshan: "Calim and Memnon immediately picked up where they left
off—trying to annihilate each other. Many presumed
humans among the population revealed themselves
as genasi and joined in the fight. Thousands more
genasi, descendants of those scattered to the Lake
of Steam, Tethyr, and Amn after the first djinn and
efreet empires fell, returned and promptly declared
for air or fire. Even some genasi out of newly arrived
Akanûl joined the fight. The result was thousands
dead, the desert’s expansion east across the Spider
Swamp, and an explosion in the genasi population."
and...
"The headquarters of the warring
genasi factions are the cities of Memnon and
Calimport. The human population of both cities
serves as slaves and as fodder in the constant battles.
Only the city of Almraiven, still rich in magic and well
defended, remains under human control. Indeed, it is
the last bastion of human rule in Calimshan."
Human population, enslaved.
Rashemi: (Aglarond, Hordelands, Rashemen, Thay, Thesk)
With the exception of the Hordelands and Thay, the others are mostly ok.
Chult and its population... poof! Maztica and its population... poof!
Anyway, what this was all about was a question of things that could be done to draw non-white gamers into RPGs. One suggestion of a few was to show them people that look like them. FR is a fantasy setting and people aren't labeled black, white, latino, asian, etc. They're labeled by more inclusive ethnic groups, not the color of their skin. Still, if these gamers don't see pictures that look like them, they either lose interest or never develop it in the first place.
I recall as a kid always wondering where the black superheroes were. I saw tons of white ones, but no black ones. Then I found them in the comics. And, most of them had the word "Black" in their superhero name. Black Lightning, Black Panther, etc. But, I didn't get why there were no black Supermans or Spidermans. There was a scene in Robert Townsend's "Hollywood Shuffle" which is about the kinds of parts black actors are generally limited to. The scene was that of him daydreaming that he was a black superman-type hero. He was flying along and then was subsequently accosted by a police helicopter. Funny scene, but very poignant. He then went on to fulfill that role by making the very terrible "Meteor Man".
Anyway, the point is. If I'm a kid (most of us got into DnD as kids) and I pick up a DnD book and I flip through it because maybe I'm interested. But, then I see that the big bad ass dude with the sword and the fire coming out of his hand is a white dude, and dwarf is a white dwarf, and the stealthy, stabby rogue is white and indeed most of the images in the book are white people, then maybe mentally I'm seeing this as something for white people. I put the book down and I move on to go and buy a copy of Blade. ;)
So, it's not about race, as I said. It's about attracting non-traditional gamers (nerdy white kids that eventually get fat and grow neckbeards). ;)
******
Acutally, theres no need. In Eberron the novels are separate from the gameing aspect so no worries about authors creating/destroying something you've liked about the setting nor is there a reason to "wipe it clean" because it's already pretty lore-lite. There might be some ret-cons concerning Eladrin/Elves but it's inevitable with the new rules.
I'm sure that if I tried to run Eberron only on the basis of those (15 or so) accessories (which, I'm told, all contain tidbits and details "necessary" to run a "canon-faithful" Eberron campaign; e.g. even City of Stormreach contains "generic" info on the Silver Flame), some of my friends (who are Eberron HC fans) would stand up and say that I'm ignoring tidbits X and Y detailed in novels Q and W.
Eberron may have less "burden of lore" that apparently has plagued FR, but it's still a lot to read. Unless, of course, you ignore the stuff, but then again, how could you do it with Eberron but not with FR?
I'm sure that if I tried to run Eberron only on the basis of those (15 or so) accessories (which, I'm told, all contain tidbits and details "necessary" to run a "canon-faithful" Eberron campaign; e.g. even City of Stormreach contains "generic" info on the Silver Flame), some of my friends (who are Eberron HC fans) would stand up and say that I'm ignoring tidbits X and Y detailed in novels Q and W.
That's when you say "The Eberron novels are not canonical. Q and W are utterly irrelevant."
(Old books are still useful because people can always play a game set in that era. Imagination is a wonderful thing)
It's a shame that getting those old books just got a lot harder.
I wonder what this will do to the "Well you can go back to 3E if you don't like 4E" argument.
It's a shame that getting those old books just got a lot harder.
I wonder what this will do to the "Well you can go back to 3E if you don't like 4E" argument.
Unless someone has tossed out all there 3e books, it shouldn't be a problem.
Even then, ebay and the like (and local stores) will still have the books.
Unless someone has tossed out all there 3e books, it shouldn't be a problem.
Even then, ebay and the like (and local stores) will still have the books.
And if they are a late comer to the setting? I played a little at the end of 2E, and then got busy through 3E and came back just before the transition was announced (but without the funding to buy up all the books in sight once it had been announced). The only 3E books I have managed to lay my hands on so far are the FRCS and the PHB.
Going back to 3E is trumpeted as an option for those who dislike the current incarnation of the Realms, and the "Previous Lore Is Still Valid" statement is used so often it has become a Trope, yet isn't that just a little bit harder now?
Ebay certainly is an option, that is where I picked up the two books I do have. But there are two problems with this:
1) Those books are becoming or will become increasingly scarce and increasingly pricey, quite effectively removing them from the means of the casual gamer (I collect books. This happens.)
2) None of the money I spend on those books goes back to support the people (note: Not company) that made them.
I am currently pursuing this option because I have no choice. This is the only format that I can now purchase these books in with any veneer of legality. Not that I expect that WotC's statement about piracy and PDFs has anything to do with anything apart from providing them a way to pull the distribution network in-house. Not that I am saying it is a stupid move, it isn't, I just don't like it much. I am actually sure the PDFs will be back, with some insane DRM and a hefty price-tag. Happy Day.
As for local stores... yeah, I listen to the tales of people on this Forum about "Shelves" (plural) of RPG books with awe and not a little envy. Considering the fact that I am lucky if my local bookshops stock a single copy of the 4E books these days, I think I am not going to hold out much hope on that one.
Let's see, in the 2nd Edition shift we had:
- Gods walk the earth
- Maztica is discovered, adding a whole new continent.
- Arcane magic became very random.
- Divine magic only worked within a vicinity from your god.
Then in 3rd Edition:
- Bane, Bhaal, Gilgeam, Ibrandul, Leira, Moander, Myrkul, Mystra, Ramman, Tiamat's three-headed incarnation and The Red Knight are all killed.
- The new gods Cyric, Kelemvor, Finder are created, and a new Mystra appears.
- Gods return to outer planes.
- Thultanthar returned to Faerûn.
- The entire Great Wheel cosmology is eliminated from the realms.
- Lolth removes the Demonweb pits from the Abyss.
- Creation of the Shadow Weave
And those are just the things that a moderate realms fan like me knew off the top of my head.
Again... it's no more dramatic than any other change that has occurred in the realms. The realms was practically made from it's cataclysmic shifts.
Quite a few incorrect event-edition correlations there.
Still if you examine the changes of previous editions, many of them occurred over the course of years, with the ToT being the main exception, but even that pales in comparison with the Spellplague.
For 4E, the Spellplague annihilated about half the nations of the setting and retcon'ed them with inexplicable alternate world areas (or just left them ruined wastelands). This is not even counting the century long jump. The 4E transition was certainly more dramatic and drastic than all the other setting changes combined.
I also have the Races of Faerun. FYI, Tethyr is semi-modeled after France.
Although it may seem that way in some aspects, that isn't correct. Here is what Steven Schend said on December 13, 2005.
On Tethyr, there was more than enough material already--I just had to weave the disparate and conflicting pieces together and add touches of Scotland and Spain to accomodate a bit more feel/mood/context. For Tethyr (and Amn equally) I kept Moorish Spain in the back of my head as per an older religion/culture leaving behind its architecture and stuff but being thrown over by new ideas and independence.
On Amn, believe it or not, it's an amalgamation of what was there already plus a lot of the Godfather (in terms of family, business, loyalties, and honor debts). I also made sure there were distinct differences between the money-grubbers of Amn and the same down in Calimshan.
On Calimshan, that had much more of a mark of pre-established culture and feel as pseudo-Arabian culture. However, as by the time I was writing LOI/EoSS we had Al-Qadim and the Bedine of Troy's Harper books, I decided to retain what I had to and spin the rest of Calishite culture into a mix of whatever my head provided and ancient Turkey (hence the Mamluks/Mameluks, pashas, the Qayadin, etc.). I didn't make it a direct or straight copy but kept it mixed enough to fit the Realms yet still have a familiar touch (and provide GMs with picture books of old Turkish towns to use as a visual touchstone).
Granted, I'd prefer to not use RL stuff to drop into the Realms, but given the time constraints and what had already been established in the Realms at that time, I did what I needed to make it distinct, feasible in Faerun, and yet sensible and familiar in feel for those who are more comfortable with RL touchstones.
They're still white. This goes for those in Cormyr and the Dales too. Just because I see a white person with a tan doesn't make them anything other than a white person with a tan. ;)
Chondathans are said to have tawny skin tones. To be honest: When I read that I had trouble visualizing it. It just wasn't a word that I mentally associated with color, so I looked it up. It said, "a dark yellowish or dull yellowish-brown color."
Now, I still had trouble visualizing it. So I did a bit of googling. I'd have to say that tawny skin is most likely most closely linked to Middle Eastern skin tones. It's darker than what would normally be considered "olive" colored skin (Italy, Greece, Portugal, etc.). To be more specific, I think they may look similar to someone who is Kurdish. (For an image of a Kurdish woman and two children click here.) I do believe "tawny" would be within that skintone range, with that perhaps being on the lighter end. (Here is an image of another Kurdish woman and a child who I believe would classify as someone with "tawny" skin on the darker end.)
Now, for Tethyrians they are described as having "dusky to fair" skin tones. In the dictionary it says that dusky is "having dark skin." As with tawny, I really wasn't satisfied with that so I went back to google. Here are some images of women with dusky skin: first image, second image, third image.
It should be noted that individuals from Calimshan have slightly darker skin. However, after reviewing what goes for "dusky" I do think that there is a distinct lack of individuals with really dark skin tones.
Anyway, what this was all about was a question of things that could be done to draw non-white gamers into RPGs.
I agree with your point and your original statements. I do believe that a lot of people look for something they can identify with, and when I think about it, I do the same thing as you do. I think there is something inside humans that draws us toward things and people who look like us, think like us, and act like us. We want something we can relate too and identify with... as you said, it's not just about skin tone, it's deeper than that.
I wasn't posting to disagree with your point or reasoning, I was posting to illustrate something else: "white" in the Forgotten Realms (that is: fair skinned people) are not as prevalent as most people think.
One suggestion of a few was to show them people that look like them. FR is a fantasy setting and people aren't labeled black, white, latino, asian, etc. They're labeled by more inclusive ethnic groups, not the color of their skin. Still, if these gamers don't see pictures that look like them, they either lose interest or never develop it in the first place.
I don't disagree with that point. I believe that point is strong and worth considering. I've noticed that over the years that WotC has taken steps to try and be more gender inclusive.
Of course, it's more than just about artwork, I believe. As I said earlier, it's about identification. The art may catch your eye, and it may draw you in, but I think it goes deeper than just artwork. To use your superman example, you could give him a paint job, but in the end he'd still be a white guy colored differently.
I think all people are attracted toward things that they can identify with - regardless of their skin color. Really, I think the best way of attracting different types of people to the hobby is to find such people, hire them, and get them to help create the product. When you create something (like art, works of fiction, campaign settings, etc.), you're injecting a part of yourself into it. It's made up of your experiences, your mindset, and everything that makes you who you are - in essence you build things that you're attracted to and like.
A white man is naturally going to favor white male characters, and those characters are going to be mostly based on concepts that he is both familiar and comfortable with. When he tries to go outside those boundaries that is where you typically enter the realm of superficial and stereotypes. The converse is true for a black woman, a Middle Eastern man who grew up in Syria, and a woman who lived most of her youth in rural China.
Imagine a campaign setting created by these different types of individuals, and I think my point becomes pretty clear. I also think it strengthens your point as well.
...
Well, that's the nature of the beast... If they choose to allow PDF's of outdated products in the future, then you'll be fine.
If they don't, it just means they would rather try to make money instead of compete with themselves.
Most likely, they are working on a way to do something in house, like having all products open to people with DDI or free DL's of purchased books...
In any event, it is a wait and see situation.
Really, I think the best way of attracting different types of people to the hobby is to find such people, hire them, and get them to help create the product. When you create something (like art, works of fiction, campaign settings, etc.), you're injecting a part of yourself into it. It's made up of your experiences, your mindset, and everything that makes you who you are - in essence you build things that you're attracted to and like.
Imagine a campaign setting created by these different types of individuals, and I think my point becomes pretty clear. I also think it strengthens your point as well.
How many ways can one say, bingo! or nail on the head? Hated to snip your post because there's a lot of salient points there. But, the above stands out in particular to me. Excellent point all around and quite true. Unfortunately, you don't have many of these folks working as game designers. And, not because it isn't necessarily open to them. It's kind of the chicken and the egg conundrum. Do we lack this sort of content because these types of people aren't designers? Or, do we lack the designers because the content to get them interested and bring them in doesn't exist? But, working in the entertainment industry, under which games certainly fall, I can say this is pretty much the case with all mainstream entertainment media.
Also, yes. I stand corrected as far as the various adjectives when describing skin tone as well as Tethyr being somewhat based on medieval France. I knew Amn was based on Moorish Spain but didn't know that had spilled over into Tethyr's conception as well. Thanks for that. As far as the actual look of Faerun's people, that is dark-skinned vs. light-skinned, what I was actually going by were the illustrations in the Races of Faerun book. If you take a look at the illustrations for the Chondathans, Illuskans, Calishites, Damarans, Rashemi, Tethyrians, and Mulan, only two of those could be characterized as non-Caucasian looking. So, I suppose I should have referenced this in my above post. Thanks for the corrections, nevertheless.
There is some potential there when dealing with ethnicity in the Realms. I can see a beautiful complexity of culture and history that has not been tapped into... something that could add a totally new layer or depth to the setting.
---
As to the chicken and the egg problem. I realized that problem as I was writing my previous post, and the best solution that I can think of is a focus group that also functions as advisors.
Basically, let's say WotC wanted to expand their market to African American females between the ages of 15 and 25, the general age group I'd say most people get into D&D. I can't think of a single black female game designer for Tabletop Games. So, I'd go out and look for individuals in the target group who would be interested in role playing games. I'd screen out individuals who'd likely have no interest in role playing at all, but I'd try and find people who have never done it or heard of it at all. The more ignorant the better.
I'd then get a feel for them on a individual and personal level and then as a group. I'd ask general questions to try and get the discussion going, and then I'd listen. I'd want those I am studying to do most of the talking. I'd make note of all the questions they ask and the statements they'd make. I'd then later look for patterns between the various individuals.
Next, I'd introduce them to a number of gaming systems not just my own. I'd try and have them fairly different. I'd get them to play games in each one. I'd ask questions and elicit feedback, trying to see what they enjoyed the most. I'd try and keep secret which product is mine as to avoid them feeling reluctant to critique it.
I'd then take everything I learned from them, and with their help sketch out a new system. All along the way I'd take their feedback and input into consideration.
Then, unless I'd want 15 to 25 year old African-American females to be my main target audience, I'd broaden out to other groups. I'd see if white males in the same age group enjoy it. I'd take into consideration the things they like and dislike. I'd then do the same for other groups. The goal is to strike a balance, where I'd find something that everyone can feel drawn to in some way shape or form. The goal is to have people identify with the product and to feel attracted to it. To have it resonate with them.
After I feel that the product is ready, I'd move it into a genuine testing phase to work out the bugs, kinks and what not... to make sure it is fun and appealing. After that, I'd market to my new audience and ship the product.
Then I'd hope the product would do well among African American females, and one of them will someday enjoy it and decide to become a game designer. Thus getting my chicken from the egg. :P
I think this could work for virtually any product that can be created or designed.
As for local stores... yeah, I listen to the tales of people on this Forum about "Shelves" (plural) of RPG books with awe and not a little envy. Considering the fact that I am lucky if my local bookshops stock a single copy of the 4E books these days, I think I am not going to hold out much hope on that one.
I'm pretty sure you're not in Northern California then... there are still at least two stores I know of that still have shelves (plural) of 3.5 books still on them... a few even have some 2e stuff, though that's been getting rarer and rarer almost daily.
I'm pretty sure you're not in Northern California then... there are still at least two stores I know of that still have shelves (plural) of 3.5 books still on them... a few even have some 2e stuff, though that's been getting rarer and rarer almost daily.
Legends in Oakridge Mall, San Jose, closed its doors so that (long-time) option for me is gone. Have to head all the way to Cupertino to visit their other store.
That said, you can find the 4E core books at virtually any big-box bookstore. There's also online ordering.
As for the older books, there are used bookstores in Mountain View that are reasonably well stocked with 3E and older books. I'd say used is probably the way to go for that older stuff.
/off topic
Well, that's the nature of the beast... If they choose to allow PDF's of outdated products in the future, then you'll be fine.
Isn't the idea that you can make use of the previous lore if you wish to based on the availability of that lore. Is any product truly out-dated?
If they don't, it just means they would rather try to make money instead of compete with themselves.
Why is it competing with themselves? As many pro-4EFR people have said, you can use that information in any game you wish to, or not. Having the back-catalogue as PDFs (which have little effective cost above and beyond server costs which you would already be spending to host your current catalogue) seems like a way to make money from every product you have ever published... even when it is out of print. I can't see the drawback to this state of affairs.
Most likely, they are working on a way to do something in house
This. The following is my theory based on attempting to think this through from a "marketing" perspective. Not something that comes easily to me. I have no evidence to back it up, I am just proffering a suggestion as part of an ongoing discussion.
My suspicion is that the PDFs were pulled citing piracy because it was a useful (and not entirely unbelievable reason) way of a) drawing attention to them and b) focussing that attention, once generated, through an in-house distribution system.
The reason (a) would work is that once pulled, the first thing people would do (and did) would be to rush to all the forums they knew and discuss it. At length. Thus raising the profile of PDF distribution methods to a far greater height. Free advertising. Keeping them unavailable for a short while would frustrate people, yes, but it may also cause them to rush to buy the PDFs when they do become available again just in case the same thing happened again.
Then in (b) they announce that after great trial they have brought us the same catalogue available through the WotC site (so all of the money from every sale goes to them) and possibly even tied to the DDI subscription to generate more revenue there.
Just what I think. My apologies for the wall of text.
like having all products open to people with DDI or free DL's of purchased books...
I don't think so. Why give away free what you can get people to pay twice for?
In any event, it is a wait and see situation.
Now this I do agree with. I just hope I am wrong about the rest.
I'm pretty sure you're not in Northern California then... there are still at least two stores I know of that still have shelves (plural) of 3.5 books still on them... a few even have some 2e stuff, though that's been getting rarer and rarer almost daily.
You would be right. I am in South-East England... well, at the moment I am in South-West Japan but usually I am in SE England. I am in a major city and I still barely see any bookstore or FLGS based distribution.
wow, someone called in the FR cavalry
Grats on setting ppl straight.
What a difference a little knowledge makes, eh?;)
Nobody has set anyone straight. Some people like FR and some do not. Some that do not like it have played it at one point and have been turned off to it by playing with a few bad DMs/Players. This does not make it a minority/majority of players. People are just voicing their opinions.
I have no issue with people not liking the FR setting. I honestly could not care less. However, some people ARE saying things about the setting that are inaccurate, and yes, they did need to be set straight.
Many of the complaints made about 'Old FR' where made out of ignorance. 'Correcting' someone's 'opinion' isn't possible, and no-one should bother trying, but correcting mis-information should always be addressed by everyone.
This works BOTH WAYS, BTW. All of what I just stated could be said of those who complain about 4e but know little about it (or haven't played it).
Many of the complaints made about 'Old FR' where made out of ignorance.
This would be your opinion based off of observation, so I won't try to correct it, even though I know it's wrong. :P
As is usually the case, a very, very small group of people are weighing on the opinions of other people that they don't know all that well.
It doesn't really matter what the "facts" are about the setting when it comes to a gamer's perception of the setting. If you're a kid or even a teenager who sees all the Chosen write-ups in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, you like superheroes and are just learning to play D&D and have figured out the concept of character levels, then seeing the Chosen as superheroes and/or really high-powered NPCs that break the power scale follows naturally.
The actual scope of activity and relative influence of the Chosen opposite all the other movers and shakers in the setting (as established in the bits and pieces of in and out of print Forgotten Realms gaming products and novels spread out over the last two decades) simply doesn't matter compared to how a new or inexperienced gamer views the setting. Relatively speaking, the information a new gamer has access to from which to form their view of the setting and its components (such as the Chosen) is limited.
Those people who choose to ignore this simple concept (or those that take an even worse attitude, such as the person who earlier in the thread erroneously pinned the blame on a fellow forum member for that member's description of how their FR games turned out) are making a deliberate -if not outright arrogant- mistake.
It's not spreading disinformation to share your view of something with others. But it's entirely elitist to imply all other people must have the same full set of knowledge that a certain few people on these forums possess before they can even begin to share their views.
This would be your opinion based off of observation, so I won't try to correct it, even though I know it's wrong.
It is my understanding that people like you, Christopher_Rowe, Charles Phipps, and many, MANY others had absolutley no problem running the Realms before - and all of you are 4e enthusiasts.
That would mean the most common complaint - that the NPCs overshadowed the PCs - is a statement made out of ignorance, does it not?
If so many of us were able to play and enjoy FR before, then obviously many of the complaints were patently false.
The one complaint that the setting was 'too hard' I'll let go for now... thats an argument I'd rather not get into. Although I believe that particular one may have had some validity, it is also very 'telling' of the folks making it. ;)
When I made that statement, I was thinking specifically of the comment that the Chosen and Harpers were like "the Justice League" - sorry if I hadn't made that clear.
Those personages had to exist for the setting to make sense, and anyone who knows ALL about the setting would realize that. The setting actually makes very little sense now, balance-wise, because there are no longer any 'control-factors' for the uber-baddies in-place.
Ed Greenwood was brilliant when it came to balance - the new FR chucks all of that right out the window and assumes level one PCs are keeping Thay and Netheril at bay.
That was the 'ignorance' I was referring to - people only saw the world as it pertains to them (once again, very telling), and failed to see the 'big picture'. They failed at that, because they refused to put in the time and effort to learn more about FR. The Forgotten Realms isn't a setting designed for 'weekened warriors' who just want to appear outside of a dungeon with no background and level-up and grab 'Phat Lewtz'. It was a setting designed from the ground-up to appeal to deep-thinkers.
Now it's a munchkin's paradise, where level three sociopaths can wipe-out an entire town for an evening of fun, and no-one is around to stop them.
Just..... lovely.
That's when you say "The Eberron novels are not canonical. Q and W are utterly irrelevant."
And the 15 or so "canon" accessories published so far, plus dozens of Dragon/Dragonshard articles? Seems like a lot, because like I said above, I've been told by Eberron fans that there's a lot of "generic" info in every one of them, so I would have to pretty much read them all.
Time for the Mournplague, I say! ;)
Legends in Oakridge Mall, San Jose, closed its doors so that (long-time) option for me is gone. Have to head all the way to Cupertino to visit their other store.
That said, you can find the 4E core books at virtually any big-box bookstore. There's also online ordering.
As for the older books, there are used bookstores in Mountain View that are reasonably well stocked with 3E and older books. I'd say used is probably the way to go for that older stuff.
/off topic
Feh, that's South Bay, filled with a bunch of weirdos. ;)
Haven't been there in a long while, but Gamescape in SF used to have an amazing collection of stuff available, and their San Rafael shop wasn't bad either. Games of Berkeley used to be awesome too, but that was a long time ago and is no longer the case as far as I know. Sad, used to love trekking over there to pick stuff up with a quick stop at Telegraph afterwards for a bit of lunch. Damn you, now you're getting me all nostalgic.
As to the new Realms, I'd tend to agree with MT's take on the new Realms not making much sense from a 'big picture' point of view. I can understand why it was done, but I still don't think it was done particularly coherently.
And the 15 or so "canon" accessories published so far, plus dozens of Dragon/Dragonshard articles? Seems like a lot, because like I said above, I've been told by Eberron fans that there's a lot of "generic" info in every one of them, so I would have to pretty much read them all.
Time for the Mournplague, I say! ;)
Not really, no. Unlike FR, Eberron is not plagued by Continuity Porn. It's DESIGNED that each individual DM is intended to put his own stamp on it. Everything you *need* is in the campaign setting and player's guide, as it should be.
Not really, no. Unlike FR, Eberron is not plagued by Continuity Porn. It's DESIGNED that each individual DM is intended to put his own stamp on it. Everything you *need* is in the campaign setting and player's guide, as it should be.
I thought I could do that (and did) in each FR campaign I've ever run? Anyway, I was told that there are tidbits and details "sprinkled" all over the articles and books; for example, 'City of Stormreach' contains "important" canon lore about the Silver Flame which is not in ECS (note: an Eberron fan told me this, but I haven't read the book myself). Also, I suspect that if I tried to set adventures in Karrnath (?) or Breland, there's a lot of info in, for example, 'Five Nations' that I would be expected to know. Likewise with 'Secrets of Xen'drik', if I ran an adventure there, or 'City of Stormreach' (I *could* do my own maps and NPCs of the city, but how's that any different from ignoring an "official" and published FR source?)
Now it's a munchkin's paradise, where level three sociopaths can wipe-out an entire town for an evening of fun, and no-one is around to stop them.
Just..... lovely.
The last part really is not true. That style of play has been around in D&D probably from the beginning. You know who stops them? The DM. When that nonsense starts a DM should just pack it up and tell them the game is over. Unless the DM is cool with it of course.
Also there always can be someone to stop those type of players but in another way. The DM, but this time in a different way. He/She can make up their own NPCs to go against the sociopaths. Before there was an FR I am sure people acted like D&D was a hacknslash video game (yep even before they existed) where they could run amok and kill anything. I am sure some smart DM came around and fixed this with powerful NPCs or organizations.
I agree that peoples dislike for the Relams may stem from some ignorance. I loathed Eberron until a friend of mine got me into it. Now I like it. I think that some DMs or players out there made FR a real nightmare to play in. That also may have soured some people to the setting.
The FR = Deep Thinker thing made me chuckle though.
The uber-good guys were there to keep the players in-line - thats the reality, and many of those "I just want to do whatevert the hell I want" types took offense to that. It had nothing at all to do with those NPCs "making them feel all inferior" (and if it did, they need even more help then I thought).
Why would anyone care if there were uber-heroes running around unless they felt they were a threat? The only way Elminster, the Chosen, and the Harpers would be a threat to a party of PCs is if they were doing 'bad things'. Thats the real-deal - all those wanna-be psychos couldn't do whatever the hell they wanted in the Realms.
So WotC/Hasbro decided to re-create the greatest setting ever imagined so that new players can fulfill their fantasies of murder and destruction.... NICE.
Those people don't need a set of RPG rules, they need counciling.
The novels 'may' give some people the idea that the uber-NPCs are "hoggin' all the action", but if you actually read the novels... I mean REALLY read them, you'll realize that most of the time the 'lowbies' are far more neccessary then the 'Ubers', because those super-heroes can't be everywhere at once, and are most of the time busy stopping 'cosmic stuff', and can't be bothered with saving a town from some trolls (or whatever).
So unless the players soemehow got the absurd notion in their heads that their 1st levl characters should be stopping the Phaerimm from destroying the world, or a Malaugrym invasion of the North, or the Abolethic Soveriegnty turing everyone into skum (too late!), then they are just looking at the game the wrong way.
Back when my son and I were avid (think: addicted) WoW players, my bro-in-law paid for an accont for his eight-year-old... who then proceeded to cry (literally) because there was stuff that his character couldn't do, and places he couldn't go.
They (his parents) paid a 'leveling service' (YES... there really is such a thing, sadly enough) to get his character up to level sixty so he could 'enjoy himself'.
That is EXACTLY the perfect example of those kinds of players who just want all the 'good stuff' without putting in any of the work. To tell you the truth, I felt sorry fo the kid. He now gets 'beat-up' a lot in school, because the other kids "won't listen to him". His parents should be jailed for socially crippling the little turd. He actually thinks he is ALWAYS supposed to get whatever he wants.
BTW, he never really bothered to play that level sixty WoW character after all the money they spent - he had no idea how to use him, having never gone through the 'learning process' of his abilities.
Thats a big problem with the world in general - everyone wants 'instant gratification'. Heaven forbid your new PC can't do the same stuff as someone else who's been playing the damn game for twenty years. WotC took-out all of FR's 'control elements' that Ed Greenwood so carefully sprinkled throughout the Realms just so a bunch of glory-hounds could run-amok.
-Back to the topic.
Which was? ;) :P
(just kidding, LK, just kidding...)
So unless the players soemehow got the absurd notion in their heads that their 1st levl characters should be stopping the Phaerimm from destroying the world, or a Malaugrym invasion of the North, or the Abolethic Soveriegnty turing everyone into skum (too late!), then they are just looking at the game the wrong way.
Back when my son and I were avid (think: addicted) WoW players, my bro-in-law paid for an accont for his eight-year-old... who then proceeded to cry (literally) because there was stuff that his character couldn't do, and places he couldn't go.
So the main plot should not revolve around the PC? This is not WoW, you don't evoluate in a World were everyone already did the quests and pass behind and do it. The PC should be the star and the game about them, not about someone else.
I agree that the NPCs don't really "take over" anything in the novels. It is in peoples own game tables that bad DMs misused many of the NPCs and it left a sour taste in some folks mouths.
That would mean the most common complaint - that the NPCs overshadowed the PCs - is a statement made out of ignorance, does it not?
I don't believe it does, because in many respects the various NPCs of the Realms did overshadow the player characters of many a game.
TSR then WotC did more than their fare share of putting the spotlight right on the Chosen, year after year after year.
If so many of us were able to play and enjoy FR before, then obviously many of the complaints were patently false.
Here's my question: If someone explains why they don't like about the Realms, how does it follow that this reasoning must be universal to all other people?
Those personages had to exist for the setting to make sense, and anyone who knows ALL about the setting would realize that.
Right, but consider what you just said.
Is it ever reasonable to expect your average gamer to know ALL about the setting, given the quantity of Realms media produced over the last two decades?
Of course not because it's impractical and implausible.
This is what I'm getting at: It doesn't follow that people need to be "put in their place" for not having read several thousand pages of Realmslore. This puts the lie to your argument (below).
The setting actually makes very little sense now, balance-wise, because there are no longer any 'control-factors' for the uber-baddies in-place. Ed Greenwood was brilliant when it came to balance - the new FR chucks all of that right out the window and assumes level one PCs are keeping Thay and Netheril at bay.
I grant that it may seem unbalanced to you, but that doesn't mean a new set of mechanisms are not in place. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
On a more game-table scale: Thay and (later) Netheril were entirely valid sources of adventure for low level player characters in the Realms (and under 1st, 2nd and 3rd Edition D&D rules) prior to the Spellplague. The Dreams of Red Wizards sourcebook by Steve Perrin (1988) described Thay as, "a land of slavers and tyrants, of intrigue and murder, of danger and opportunity." But not once did it say the dangers of Thay were beyond the reach of 1st level characters. On the contrary, that tome says its contents can be used for an, "AD&D campaign of any size or level."
However, the way you make it sound, prior to the Spellplague a group of 1st level player characters couldn't stand up to these bad guys at all and really it was for NPCs to do.
Isn't that the myth you're saying people are ignorant for believing in the first place?
That was the 'ignorance' I was referring to - people only saw the world as it pertains to them (once again, very telling), and failed to see the 'big picture'. They failed at that, because they refused to put in the time and effort to learn more about FR. The Forgotten Realms isn't a setting designed for 'weekened warriors' who just want to appear outside of a dungeon with no background and level-up and grab 'Phat Lewtz'. It was a setting designed from the ground-up to appeal to deep-thinkers.
The Ruins of Undermountain boxed set was from (below) the ground-up a true weekend warrior supplement. As were so many other published adventures. You're trying to build an argument around the fast playability of 4E in order to put one over on us, but it won't work.
The rest of your argument is just one big example of ad hominem. It's an indirect swipe at people's supposed "failure" to commit to learning the Realms and against their supposed lack of intelligence, not unlike when Therise was needling me sometime back for not reading and knowing enough world history, (it was "sad" in her words). In both cases it's the person being attacked, not the argument.
Now it's a munchkin's paradise, where level three sociopaths can wipe-out an entire town for an evening of fun, and no-one is around to stop them.
Now you're reaching. You know as well as I do there have been countless 1st, 2nd and 3rd Edition Realms games where players went about trying to do just that.
The thing is, you're implying NPCs of the Realms are there to keep the players down when they get out of line. Again, isn't that a notion you were trying to dispel at the very beginning?
...It's an indirect swipe at people's supposed "failure" to commit to learning the Realms and against their supposed lack of intelligence, not unlike when Therise was needling me sometime back for not reading and knowing enough world history, (it was "sad" in her words). In both cases it's the person being attacked, not the argument. (...)
Oh Misc... as usual, completely taking what I said out of context and thinking it was a personal attack.
Oh Misc... as usual, completely taking what I said out of context and thinking it was a personal attack.
That's hilarious. I didn't know personal attacks came in different flavors.
Not really, no. Unlike FR, Eberron is not plagued by Continuity Porn. It's DESIGNED that each individual DM is intended to put his own stamp on it. Everything you *need* is in the campaign setting and player's guide, as it should be.
That people think FR is any different than Eberron in that regard is perhaps the greatest failure of WotC (and TSR before it) when it comes to presenting the Realms as a game setting to its audience.
However, the blame cannot be placed entirely on the companies, the FRCS does say it's your world, that the material provided in official sources is just a guideline, and the DM should make the PCs the stars. Please refer to "Running the Realms: Campaigns" on page 297 of the 3e FRCS.
That's hilarious. I didn't know personal attacks came in different flavors.
Looks like you need some
with that.And, I'll bet there's more than a few people who wanted to toss all that lore in the trash and throw in their own ideas. Kinda like the producer that comes on set and says, "Hey, guys, let's change this, this, and this. Oh! And, let's add a dog. Everybody loves dogs."
In the end it comes down to revenue. If Wizards thought that this turn would make them more money, they were gonna do it. If they figured they could get more converts and new folks than old folks lost, they were gonna do it. Simple and plain. So, it's something that's almost entirely out of Joe Gamer's hands. We live with it, or jump from the highest edifice we can find.
On another note... I ran Realms adventures since the late 80s through the early 00s. During that time ('87-'02/'03), my players ran into ONE, again that's ONE star NPC. That was Khelben. They met him for about 5 minutes. I never saw the need to use the larger-than-life NPCs. I didn't dislike them, or like them necessarily. They were just there, really. Added flavor. Kind of showing the PCs that aspire to that what they could be one day when they grew up. ;)
Looks like you need some
Oh thank you for the offer! But cheese doesn't go well with water, no matter how much you'd like to recolor it as wine.
Try your hand at making humble pie.
And I DO understand people's argument about the uber-NPcs, but it wasn't the settings fault - it was the novels. Without them, no-one would have ever gotten those false impressions about the Realms in the first place.
The thing is, in my experience, it's usually the people who didn't bother getting to know the Realms that disliked it so, and now those same people are happy because they don't have to.
It is all about money - they 'cheapened' the Realms just to draw a larger audience to it. It comes down to business, as Rauric just said.
Further comments erased because I realized they were in bad taste, all things considered. Each day I think more and more that this just isn't for me anymore. I like a setting with tons and tons of history - I guess I'm just a dinosaur.