I'm not sure I can articulate my question better than that but there's been this notion in the back of my head that maybe the two aren't necessarily the best thing for each other.
Anyone else thought the same thing?
18DELTA
Then again, it depends on the quality of the novel itself.
That is, the novels have always been a canon source for the Realms.
As much as I'd like to see the Realms follow the path of Eberron, I just don't see WotC making that happen. Too many iconic characters and all that, even with the subtraction of the Chosen in 4E.
The iconics are a double edged sword. The bigger the story you tell and the more each tale shakes the Realms, the smaller the Realms can become in the eye of the reader. Too much affected by too few.
When the stories are grounded in one area and feature many protagonists, things are better IMO. DMs and readers alike get to learn more about one area that way.
For example, I know that I wouldn't have come off as such a well informed DM to my players when we first started our campaign if I hadn't first read Cormyr: A Novel and the follow-ups Beyond the High Road and Death of the Dragon.
I read those books for my own enjoyment, but those books also proved ample fodder for running a D&D game right in the middle of the war (Ghazneths included). There was a lot going on and no one NPC or even a group of them could save the day. Not even a hint of the Chosen or Elminster meddling in the war.
Just Cormyr vs. the absolute nastiest foes in its history, with enough room in the storyline for my players to help win the war.
-Were novels not canon, there'd be little incentive to buy them. As such, I am extremely pleased that they are canon, and that they will, in all likelihood, continue to be canon.
I, personally, have no problems along these lines but it is obvious that other people do. And to satisfy those other people a narrative discontinuity as been inserted to distance the old setting (with its "baggage") from the new.
The novels have, apparently, forced this change...
...and the change itself is destructive to the novels.
So I do agree with Hobbitfan. I don't think that, with the current attitudes of many, they are good for each other. Even as I bemoan that fact.
Example. I sat through an abysmal excuse for a book called Road of the Patriarch. Why? Because in Promise of the Witch King, I somehow got the idea that the series was going to give us the return of Zhengyi. So, even though the book became a complete train wreck half way through, and ended up as nothing more than a soap opera, I sat through it. I did so because I wanted to see what happened to the Realms. (in hindsight, since the book contained no meaningful information about the Realms, and sucked to the 10th power, I wish I hadn't).
Ebberon novels are not canon. I love Ebberon, and think its a great setting. Do I give a damn about Ebberon novels? Not at all. I tried some of them, realised that none of the things I was reading were actually happening in the setting, got fed up with the pointlessness of it, and discarded them.
(and yes, I do have to complain about Road of the Patriach whenever I get the opportunity. I sucked that much.)
Question: are the majority of readers really FR D&D players, vs fans of Salvatore and other authors? I've always assumed that a lot of people just like reading the books alone without playing the game.
I've never read the novels myself, though my husband does like many of them. I'd personally like them separated to avoid a lot of the issues that others have mentioned here.
I believe that actually the effect of novels from now on will be marginalised in favour of the LFR "canon" material being produced, both for and by adventures run.
Will there be LFR type newspapers informing us all or will LFR canon be something you "don't really need to know or pay attention to"? ...like the novels were/are.
Question: are the majority of readers really FR D&D players, vs fans of Salvatore and other authors? I've always assumed that a lot of people just like reading the books alone without playing the game.
Impossible to answer since there are no statistics on this available (to my knowledge) and that any poll or collection of views on this forum is likely to be biased. I would even hedge bets that other people have always assumed what you have always assumed.
Other possibilities, to those you have outlined may be:
1) Someone who likes playing and reading.
2) People who like reading and have played and are filling time to their next game.
3) People who would like to play but haven't had much luck in finding a game.
4) People who are not necessarily fans of the authors specifically but find that the stories told in the Forgotten Realms have unique qualities to those told outside them.
...
I could actually go on.
That being said, writing for a shared world like the Realms requies a decent amount of knowledge, or you end up with something that is virtually ignored by everyone (Threat from the Sea) despite being a RSE.
I like all 3 of the Realms worlds (books, setting, games), but it seems 4e is doing its best to destroy all 3, especially given how interlocked they all are.
I believe that actually the effect of novels from now on will be marginalised in favour of the LFR "canon" material being produced, both for and by adventures run.
Will there be LFR type newspapers informing us all or will LFR canon be something you "don't really need to know or pay attention to"? ...like the novels were/are.
Hopefully they'll be posting it up on the RPGA page so that everyone's aware as to what's going on. If not, I hope there are are LFR members here who could keep us up to date...? (looks around the thread)
Impossible to answer since there are no statistics on this available (to my knowledge) and that any poll or collection of views on this forum is likely to be biased. I would even hedge bets that other people have always assumed what you have always assumed.
Other possibilities, to those you have outlined may be:
1) Someone who likes playing and reading.
2) People who like reading and have played and are filling time to their next game.
3) People who would like to play but haven't had much luck in finding a game.
4) People who are not necessarily fans of the authors specifically but find that the stories told in the Forgotten Realms have unique qualities to those told outside them.
...
I could actually go on.
I don't doubt that quite a few players also read the novels; I just wondered if they were actually enough to turn some of these books into New York Times bestsellers, or whatever they advertise themselves as.
If so, well...stop it! Only read ones that don't affect the Realms! :P
Bel
Hopefully they'll be posting it up on the RPGA page so that everyone's aware as to what's going on. If not, I hope there are are LFR members here who could keep us up to date...? (looks around the thread)
I hope that they post this information, because otherwise I see another profound discontinuity developing.
I don't doubt that quite a few players also read the novels; I just wondered if they were actually enough to turn some of these books into New York Times bestsellers, or whatever they advertise themselves as.
Probably not, but does that actually matter?
If so, well...stop it! Only read ones that don't affect the Realms! :P
Well if I ever manage to find a game (I am a number 3 from my list by the way) then I shall be sure to stop reading anything that affects the Realms. Or maybe I should anyway, not least because if I don't then after the next time jump (yes I do believe that there will be another) over half of the characters I want to read about will have been killed... again.
I have to agree with Mr Miscellany and Stigger, I would perfer the novels be divorced from the setting, how does Eberron's timeline move forward without novels?
Bel
-It doesn't. Keith Baker aka Hellcow has stated that Eberron is pretty much stayin as is. Sure they will add in the Dragonborn/Tieflings. Yet the setting will stay pretty much the same.
Probably not, but does that actually matter?
Not really; after all, I'm not reading them so it doesn't. It's just a matter of curiosity, nothing more.
Well if I ever manage to find a game (I am a number 3 from my list by the way) then I shall be sure to stop reading anything that affects the Realms.
Have you tried playing online via posts? Not sure if there's an FR game running on the WotC boards but you'd be sure to find one, somewhere. It's how I play the games I'm presently involved.
how does Eberron's timeline move forward without novels?
While in general I prefer a canon disjunct between setting and fiction (with the occasional overlap at the GM's preference), I don't think that it would work as well for the Realms as it does for Eberron. The thing about Eberron is that the core books are supposed to just be a starting point - everything from that point on is 100% up to the players. If they want to draw on the extra fiction, that's their choice (for instance, I'm quite keen on having the events of The Doom of Kings have an impact in my game, if ever I get back to it).
However, by contrast, much of what appeals to people about the Realms is that it's a deep, living environment. Such a scenario needs to be supplemented with events that play off each other and have long-term consequences. So, much as I hate to admit it (I've had enough bad experiences with Realmslore used at the table that the characters shouldn't actually know), outside sources of canon are necessary to the continuing popularity of this setting. But, by the same token, so are perennial catastrophes that reset the playing field and enable newcomers to get into the game without running headfirst into a wall of pulp.
While in general I prefer a canon disjunct between setting and fiction (with the occasional overlap at the GM's preference), I don't think that it would work as well for the Realms as it does for Eberron. The thing about Eberron is that the core books are supposed to just be a starting point - everything from that point on is 100% up to the players. If they want to draw on the extra fiction, that's their choice (for instance, I'm quite keen on having the events of The Doom of Kings have an impact in my game, if ever I get back to it).
However, by contrast, much of what appeals to people about the Realms is that it's a deep, living environment. Such a scenario needs to be supplemented with events that play off each other and have long-term consequences. So, much as I hate to admit it (I've had enough bad experiences with Realmslore used at the table that the characters shouldn't actually know), outside sources of canon are necessary to the continuing popularity of this setting. But, by the same token, so are perennial catastrophes that reset the playing field and enable newcomers to get into the game without running headfirst into a wall of pulp.
I largely agree with you, though the new Realms seem to be designed to be, like Ebberon, rather a starting point than a deep, living environment. Perhaps non canon novels might be the the future of the Realms. It would just get "bloated" again otherwise. It would be inconsistent if they didn't make this change actually. More's the pity, in my opinion.
I believe that actually the effect of novels from now on will be marginalised in favour of the LFR "canon" material being produced, both for and by adventures run.
Will there be LFR type newspapers informing us all or will LFR canon be something you "don't really need to know or pay attention to"? ...like the novels were/are.
I am not sure I would say the FR novels are marginalized, but perhaps restrained, at least for now, to less than epic impact.
The LFR adventures in heroic tier will only be of very local interest, sort of minor news from this village or that city at most. If you are interested, there may be new businesses or temples or such identified.
Some examples:
going to Zhental Keep
Show
In SPEC1-1, adventurers go to a tavern, explore the ruins, meet with/fight with hostile groups...stuff you might like as a resource if you were running an adventure there, but not really detailed--no current maps of the ruins.
I am not sure I would say the FR novels are marginalized, but perhaps restrained, at least for now, to less than epic impact.
I wasn't just talking in terms of impact but thank you for the explanation anyway.
I am not sure how we will share developments as they could be potential spoilers for those players who are looking to play the adventure, until the adventure is retired, but maybe spoiler pages are sufficient. It is not clear as yet what WotC website resources we will have, if any, for LFR beyond the company produced documents.
Hmm, not exactly reassuring here. So what is the "lifetime" for an adventure? I mean surely if the canonical timeline is being driven by LFR (and I don't really think that is overly debateable at this point) then it would worry me greatly if the results weren't available outside the LFR documents... which seem only to be available to LFR players. If they are more widely available then could you tell me where to find them?
And what about the setting information and Lore? I mean the businesses, temples and so on that you referred to before? Will this information be generally available?
I appreciate your taking the time to provide information!
If they would make introduce some changes, I would rather they would be relatively small ones.
That's basically my opinion as well. A big change every now and then is fine, but in recent years the RSEs got piled on too quickly.
It doesn't help that some novels feel (to me) like they are written with the main goal of "advancing" the setting*. I prefer it when FR novels are mainly content just to be fun stories for the reader, set in a fun setting.
*That is, WotC first decided they wanted to change the setting, then they built a story around it, rather than allowing to the changes to grow organically out of what's already in the setting (through a story).
Question: are the majority of readers really FR D&D players, vs fans of Salvatore and other authors? I've always assumed that a lot of people just like reading the books alone without playing the game.
I don't think we have anyway of knowing who "the majority" of readers represent. It's true that there are plenty of people out there who read about Drizzt but no other books about the Realms. Some people game but don't read the novels. Some people read the novels but don't play the game. And some people play the game and read the novels.
And of course, Iluvrien listed some more possibilities.
Hmm, not exactly reassuring here. So what is the "lifetime" for an adventure? I mean surely if the canonical timeline is being driven by LFR (and I don't really think that is overly debateable at this point) then it would worry me greatly if the results weren't available outside the LFR documents... which seem only to be available to LFR players. If they are more widely available then could you tell me where to find them?
And what about the setting information and Lore? I mean the businesses, temples and so on that you referred to before? Will this information be generally available?
I appreciate your taking the time to provide information!
The LFR adventures will generally be available for 2+ years. Those being released in 2009 will retire in December 2011, so long play time.
If you join the RPGA, pass the Herald GM test, then you could sanction a home play event and down load the adventure yourself from the RPGA library.
I don't know the answers about where "results" would be posted or shared.
WotC had originally stated that LFR regions would get websites through Gleemax. You probably know Gleemax got killed a couple of months ago. The campaign staff is pushing on what are our options, but we are fairly tightly controlled by WotC. To be determined.
I would definitely like to share the lore, not just for a general FR audience, but to give devoted LFR players (and DMs) something to immerse themselves in, if they would like.
Keith
Which reads to me like an acknowledgement that the book is meant to serve as both a campaign guide for gaming and as a "setting bible" for the writers, artists, coders, designers, cartographers and other creative workers who create new Realmslore.
-I like how Eberron does it. Novels do not impact the setting unless I want them to.
That's how it will work in any FR game I run.
I quite enjoy the good novels. Not so much the bad ones and so I don't read them. I don't have a problem with people letting the novels impact their FR setting.
I like all 3 of the Realms worlds (books, setting, games), but it seems 4e is doing its best to destroy all 3, especially given how interlocked they all are.
Why anyone would believe WotC's plan is to destroy the Realms as a profitable product line I have no idea.
That aside, I am a huge Star Wars fan. Over the years I have read countless novels, comics, and so on. I have played the various versions of SWRPG put out by Wizards over years past with my regular gaming group. We have all come to the same conclusion: We like the story too much and we do not like playing the universe we love because we do not want to screw it up.
I often had a hard time in Star Wars making great adventures because I, as the GM, felt so constricted by the storyline. Conversely, if I tried to remove the story far from canon so that there would be no intrusion then my players and I would feel like we weren't playing Star Wars.
Now, I feel that could also be applied to Forgotten Realms. It is a franchise that goes beyond just a RPG setting, that includes much canon from games and novels. I do not think the canon is as solid and widespread as in Star Wars, given the cultural popularity of Star Wars which Forgotten Realms lacks, but for those of us invested in it, I am sure it is the same.
So, to answer the question, I do think it could conflict with being an RPG setting, dependant upon how invested you and you players are in the canon and how willing you are to diverge from that, if you feel you have to at all.
Another note: I do think that the great leap forward the designers made was great. From a marketing stand point it will make it easier for new players to get involved in FR. The comic book industry did this as well with their Ultimate series, which brought in a whole new generation of fans. I think Wizards did a great job there. Now, I have seen a lot of complaining from veterans of the setting that they are catering too much to new players. That may be true, however I do not really see it as a problem. Forgotten Realms has been around for a long time. The setting has been relatively static, aside from the growing popularity of characters in novels and games and so on. This huge shake-up revived my interest in the setting. So I guess, without going too far away from the topic of this thread: if you are unpleased with the direction the Realms are going, just pick up a copy of the third edition book. The information in there is more than enough to set your 4e campaign. You'll have to think of something for Dragonborn, but you're all clever lads.
Do you guys think that there are elements about the Realms as a novel setting that add to/detract from its appeal as an rpg setting?
I'm not sure I can articulate my question better than that but there's been this notion in the back of my head that maybe the two aren't necessarily the best thing for each other.
Anyone else thought the same thing?
Well for me playing an actual PnP game is such a rare occurrence that the novels are way more important than the actual rules. I only read the source and rule books for the lore. Knowing the lore of the setting makes reading the novels that much more enjoyable.
And from what I know through friends, I am not alone in this thinking.
The setting has been relatively static, aside from the growing popularity of characters in novels and games and so on.
Eh, the setting hasn't been all that static in recent years. There have been a lot of RSEs in recent novels even before 4E was even announced.
You'll have to think of something for Dragonborn, but you're all clever lads.
Some of us are ladies.
You're right it has not been completely static, however for how long it has been out as a setting, it is nice, in my opinion, to see a nice huge shake-up. The Star Wars universe has a lot of different settings through time. As a fan of that franchise, I guess I welcome something like that in FR.
That you are, my apologies. ;)
It's all good.
At the moment I am enjoying The Sword Never Sleeps... greatly enjoying it.
At the moment I am enjoying The Sword Never Sleeps... greatly enjoying it.
I plan on reading it over Thanksgiving. :D
The Star Wars universe has a lot of different settings through time. As a fan of that franchise, I guess I welcome something like that in FR.
-Star Wars also spans thousands of years in numerous galaxies, where as Abeir-Toril is only one planet, with not too much influence from outside sources, in a traditional way.