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In today’s Forgotten Realms preview, we take you to the region of Luruar, from Chapter 6 (Faerun and Beyond) of the forthcoming Campaign Guide.
Luruar, also known as the Silver Marches, is a league of three strong cities in the North, populated primarily by humans, half-elves, elves, and eladrin. Nearby dwarven citadels are close allies but no longer part of the confederacy.
Luruar has gained a reputation for safe, friendly cities surrounded by an extensive wilderness dotted with all sorts of ruins, rugged monster lairs, and lost shrines. Because the region’s extreme wilderness lies in such close proximity to points of civilization, the kingdom serves as the unofficial base for several nonaffiliated adventuring companies.
Luruar, also known as the Silver Marches, is a league of three strong cities in the North, populated primarily by humans, half-elves, elves, and eladrin. Nearby dwarven citadels are close allies but no longer part of the confederacy.
Luruar has gained a reputation for safe, friendly cities surrounded by an extensive wilderness dotted with all sorts of ruins, rugged monster lairs, and lost shrines. Because the region’s extreme wilderness lies in such close proximity to points of civilization, the kingdom serves as the unofficial base for several nonaffiliated adventuring companies.
Ah, screw it. :surrender
Before she passed away, High Lady Alustriel of Silverymoon
It boasts temples and shrines to such deities as Mielikki, Oghma, Silvanus, Sune, Tymora
Confirmation that they're still around, and likely as Lesser Gods and Greater Gods.
The Faerûn-spanning organization known as the Harpers disbanded nearly a century ago. However, in the city of Everlund is Moongleam Tower, a Harper hold of old. When Netheril returned, a remnant of the old organization re-formed. Under the leadership of Eaerlraun Shadowlyn, the small organization is dedicated to one purpose: opposing the growing power of the Shadovar.
Cripes, so much for the Harpers.
18DELTA ;)
I was looking at Amazon, earlier, and wondering if I should preorder the FRPG and Hunter: The Vigil, but now I'm thinking I might just preorder Hunter: The Vigil by itself. The FRPG pretty much suits my purposes, so the FRCG is, for the most part, mostly superfluous.
Tower of the Tree Slaker: Sounds interesting.
The Bad
Changing the name back to 'Luruar': I was always preferential towards 'The Silver Marches'.
The Kingdom of Many-Arrows is her enemy: Going by what I read in the prologue/epilogue of The Orc King, something is seemingly not right here. Someone is wrong.
Alustirel is dead: No explanation? Circumstances? And, she 'passed away'? Say what!?
The Harpers disbanded: No explanation as to why, either. You'd think, when the world was at it's darkest, the Harpers would stick around, eh? Well, I guess not.
Moongleam Tower is only actively opposed to the Shadovar: The Harpers were primarily opposed to the Zhentarim, but meddled where they wished. I hope this organization follows suit, though this article implies otherwards.
These lycanthrope tribes still worship Malar, despite his reduced status.
That implies that his status is one that normally wouldn't garner worship. Therefore Exarch.
No kidding. Was it necessary to knock off Alustriel? Not like she did a whole lot.
-Its their way of further divorcing the setting from 1e, 2e, 3e, and 3.5e. :embarrass
18DELTA
Odd, not too many complaints against the Harpers that I've seen, but I have heard complaints that the Realms lacked widespread, cross-nation organizations that PCs could join or interact closely with, such as Eberron's Dragonmark houses. Missing that sense of belonging in that clubhouse sort of way.
I was never all that fond of the Harpers: always found them hard to use. Anyway, you're free to decide how many of them are and how widespread they are: the big change is that they're properly secretive again in order to survive. Lot's of independent cells operating with minimal contact with, or oversight from, Moongleam Tower.
No incursions from Abeir that I can see, and it looks like a good area to adventure in: all the old lore will be usable, with a bit of updating.
Luruar ... well, IMHO, if people keep these fantasy names coming and write a "common" name aside of it, fair enough. I rather dislike fantasy communities (especially of non-human races) which get "common = English" names, e.g. Evermeet. Likewise very strange "common" names aside really cool fantasy stuff, e.g. Weathercote Forest next to Anauroch, Ascore, Evereska et al.
And Aglaronds description doesn´t bode well for the Simbul either.
I really hope they have a good reason to kill so many of Eds characters, I guess the interview in Dragon this month might shed some light on it.
To say something good, I really like it that Alustriels son took over for her after her demise, it really seemed to fit.
I wonder know, who is the goodie goodie group now??
not the church of amaunator......
what about the moonstars?
well alustriel was the oldest, SO i figured she would go after the death of mystra.
now:
Sylune: passed on
storm:???
Dove:???
lareal:???
veladorn: dead and beyond all
alustriel: old age
Symbul:???
Is there something in the FRCS that has not been "excerpted" yet?
Maybe but here's the preview schedule fron the August and Beyond article:
08/12: The Warlock’s Dark Pact
08/14: Amn (from the player’s perspective, covering regional benefits, common knowledge, and people of the region)
08/19: Rituals (including 3 new examples)
08/21: Elfharrow?
08/26: The Swordmage (including sample powers)?
08/28: The Great Dale?
09/02: Feats (including the Heroic Tier table)
09/04: Luruar?
?=Hopefully not the same stuff we've seen.
Bel
As far as Moongleam Tower, I definitely got the impression that this was more of a potential resource ("will help anyone opposed to Netheril") for those adventurous PCs, the heroes brave enough to take on the Shadovar - but wouldn't so much be doing anything by themselves. This seems to be the recurring design theme, hammered home repeatedly (that's my take, at least, based on what I've heard/seen thus far).
Maybe a favourite Harper tactic now is to act as mentor to adventuring groups and directing their efforts in ways that will screw with the Shades' plans and interests.
Many-Arrows and Luruar are enemies? This is new; The Orc King implies that they are not on the friendliest terms but not exactly hostile either.
The Harpers were disbanded? That's not too much of a surprise, though I would like more details. The organization took a few hits in close succession in 3E and the tail end of 2E, and it's not inconceivable that some version of the Harpstar Wars finished them off. I am a little surprised that the reborn Harpers are operating in Luruar; I would have expected the Dales.
In the final analysis, it's not too surprising that Mithral Hall split from the union with the other dwarven citadels, although I have to assume that it happened after Bruenor's death.
I am a little surprised that the reborn Harpers are operating in Luruar; I would have expected the Dales.
Yes, I am a sad puppy myself. Ah well. We still have the Fall of Stars ;)
Gomez
What's WotC mail adresss? Need to send them a few things. This proves what we were saying all along. These are not The Realms.
I hope we will, at least, be able to hear more about that.
And apparently Netheril is considered a bigger threat than the Zhentarim, which, well, is not a surprise, really.
I Am curious about the disbanding of the harpers. I personally think it was a really bad decision.
Bad? You fell short. It was stupid, I want to know who was the genius who thought that disbanding The Harpers was a good idea, and why RB lied to us when he said the Harpers were still there.
Bad? You fell short. It was stupid, I want to know who was the genius who thought that disbanding The Harpers was a good idea, and why RB lied to us when he said the Harpers were still there.
He didn't lie. The harpers disbanded, then reformed again to oppose Netheril.
But what's really strange is that she is a Wizard, most prolong their life. Elminster lived those 100 years, why is he still alive and not her?
Bad? You fell short. It was stupid, I want to know who was the genius who thought that disbanding The Harpers was a good idea, and why RB lied to us when he said the Harpers were still there.
Well I dont want to say anything harsher, simply because I dont know the circumstances involved. I would gladly change my mind (from a negative opinion to a good one) if I was told a good tale about it.
Maybe he did not lie. Maybe the Harpers just evolved into different smaller factions. Maybe it was a last moment decision he was not aware of, at a specific time.... Who knows... best way is to actually ask him. Or maybe Iak.
Anyway...at first I dont like it.
He didn't lie. The harpers disbanded, then reformed again to oppose Netheril.
Thank you. I was just going to post this.
I used The Marches in my campaign. I am more than ok with what has happened to it. Works for me.
"YOU
! YOU KILLED SL***Y GALADRIEL!"
But seriously, Alustriel was one of the few Seven Sisters I genuinely felt was worthwhile as a character.
The Harpers disbanding is a loss as well.
I don't see the point.
But what's really strange is that she is a Wizard, most prolong their life. Elminster lived those 100 years, why is he still alive and not her?
Because El is the member of Wizard's staff who has to welcome new players into the setting, and killing him would be like killing Drizzt. There are plenty of kids who need a Gandalf- or Dumbledore-like wizard to guide their steps... even when he's gone nuts.
Why? Because he's an excellent plot device when I'm lazy.
"I need you to find the Orb of Phantasmagoria!"
"Why?"
"BECAUSE I AM OLD AND MAGICAL!"
Oddly, Drizzt is useless for games but he doesn't ever do anything outside of Icewind Dale so I can ignore him.
Shows you how 'informed' he is.
Yesterday I started to read the excerpt about 'returned Abeir'. Because Ed wrote that part of the book, I had high expectations (and that is one of the primary reasons I decided to play in the 4e Realms).
I got as far as 'Dragonborn' and stopped reading. I should have known when Bruce Cordell's name appeared on it I wouldn't like it. I have yet to read the excerpt about Loudwater, either.
And now, I WON'T read this one.
I was wrong... there really is NOTHING in 4e FR to get excited about.
Guess I'll head back over to Paizo and see whats up... haven't been there in awhile.
Until I know more details of Alustriels passing I am not too concerned. With so much changing in the Silver Marches and the whole death of Mystra thing; it made sense that Alustriel would have moved on or croaked. Sad, yes, but acceptable.
I like that the dwarves are once again considered reluctant allies. I have a fondness for dwarf/elf antipathy.
I am ok with the excerpt. It is a little light on lore but gives a quick overview. I hope we will get a full picture with the DDI article in Sept.
I was wrong... there really is NOTHING in 4e FR to get excited about.
I don't know the rest of you, but this is very serious, heavy and grisly. I've seen how a hope's been broken.
I do find it funny how Many Arrows is an enemy of Luruar. The Orc King prologue (which took place around the time of the New Realms (1479 DR) went on about how it was a shining light of goodness to be looked up to.
No kidding. Was it necessary to knock off Alustriel? Not like she did a whole lot.
Honestly, I'm surprised--I figured she'd be one of the Sisters who actually survived, as many people seemed to like her.
Because El is the member of Wizard's staff who has to welcome new players into the setting, and killing him would be like killing Drizzt. There are plenty of kids who need a Gandalf- or Dumbledore-like wizard to guide their steps... even when he's gone nuts.
See? That right there? That's silly of them. Spellplague is supposed to be grim and dark, but the 2 people (1 who should have seriously died with Alustriel)
who are so important to the series live. I really don't like that, it makes the setting artificial.
The Harpers and the Weave DEFINED FR - without either, this is some other product that has taken the name. I have lost my final connection to the setting. Everything that set it apart is gone - it's flavorless generic fantasy now, and I can get that anywhere.
I still want to try the 4e rules, but since no one else is producing 4e material, I'll have to wait until Eberron comes out next year and see how badly they butcher that.
I wonder know, who is the goodie goodie group now??
Probably none--not like the Harpers, anyway. One trope of 4E is that the focus is on the PCs above all (I don't think the Harpers took away from that, but I guess WotC did).
Honestly, I'm surprised--I figured she'd be one of the Sisters who actually survived, as many people seemed to like her.
Yeah, I figured that at the very least Storm, Dove, and Alustriel would survive. Probably the Simbul, too. Disappointing.
He didn't lie. The harpers disbanded, then reformed again to oppose Netheril.
Yep. Here's the quote in question.
I answered the Harper question a few pages back. Yes, they're still around. The organization is a little smaller and more tightly focused now; the rise of the Empire of Netheril has got the Harpers' full and undivided attention at the moment. The bit about the Moonstar-Harper schism is long in the past by 1479 DR.
And from the article.
When Netheril returned, a remnant of the old organization re-formed. Under the leadership of Eaerlraun Shadowlyn, the small organization is dedicated to one purpose: opposing the growing power of the Shadovar.
Bad? You fell short. It was stupid, I want to know who was the genius who thought that disbanding The Harpers was a good idea, and why RB lied to us when he said the Harpers were still there.
It's possible he just didn't know, or plans changed. Remember, he wasn't working on the FRCG.
Wait, since she was a Chosen of Mystra, and Mystra is dead now, isn't the Chosen status removed from her? She ages now.
But what's really strange is that she is a Wizard, most prolong their life. Elminster lived those 100 years, why is he still alive and not her?
Most likely because there are still ways of prolonging one's life in 4E Faerun.
Probably none--not like the Harpers, anyway. One trope of 4E is that the focus is on the PCs above all (I don't think the Harpers took away from that, but I guess WotC did).
I don't like that direction with 4e. It was more fun to work your way up to hero status.
"What you want to go clear Aboleths out of a city controlling everyone? No, go kill some kobolds. You'll get slaughtered by those...fish things."
My adventures and campaigns basically start the PCs doing small time work for local lords, then fame spreading. It makes it feel like an actual world. When you create a character and he automatically is the star, it doesn't...FEEL right.
I fear the Zhentarim are reduced to Headless Horsemen now.
That will suck really hard.
The bad thing is that I am starting to think you might be right.
They' ve been barely mentioned up to now.
Just a shame that what's replacing it is a work of mediocrity from lesser men. Though, that might explain why they had to get rid of the good stuff, so their work wouldn't look so horrendous in comparison.
Well, its official. The 4e Realms are a joke
No no. Jokes are funny. This is something unspeakable under FCC rules. ;)
Thank you. I was just going to post this.
I used The Marches in my campaign. I am more than ok with what has happened to it. Works for me.
He said the Harpers were faring better actually. That group is NOT the Harpers.
I don't like that direction with 4e. It was more fun to work your way up to hero status.
I totally agree. I would like to point out, however, that the 3E rulebooks also liked to remind the reader that PCs, even at first level, were "special" and a cut above the rest mechanically.
I totally agree. I would like to point out, however, that the 3E rulebooks also liked to remind the reader that PCs, even at first level, were "special" and a cut above the rest mechanically.
Yea, but they also followed the same rules as everyone else, and, like in real life, some people are just better.
Yea, but they also followed the same rules as everyone else, and, like in real life, some people are just better.
My point is 4E isn't really that much different. You still don't get to be involved in world-shaking events until you are in the higher tiers (at least, that seems to be the intent). If a 1st character starts off as a "hero", they must only be a local hero.
He didn't lie. The harpers disbanded, then reformed again to oppose Netheril.
Its not the Harpers. Thats kind of like saying the current Temptations are the Temptations even though that play firehouses and not one member from the original is there. Just cause they call themselves the Harpers doesn't mean they are the Harpers
Luke Skywalker is a Jedi because one of the dudes after they disbanded said he was.
a remnant of the old organization re-formed
We're not talking all-new people who took the name. We're talking people who actually were Harpers saying "You know what? Let's rebuild the Harpers and get some of these old guys back". They're the Harpers. A smaller and crappier form of the Harpers, but Harpers nonetheless.
Its not the Harpers. Thats kind of like saying the current Temptations are the Temptations even though that play firehouses and not one member from the original is there. Just cause they call themselves the Harpers doesn't mean they are the Harpers
not just the Harpers, the whole setting
The Harpers figured prominently in my 3E campaign, and their mark will still be felt in its 4E sequel. And, at this point we're getting incomplete information anyway.
Also, I'm surprised no one has yet noted the mention of frost giants in the Glimmerwood section – I wonder if we'll see their stats in this book?
As for the Zhents, that organization had shifted focus from mercantile activities to religious order, so the ability of the Harpers to actually foil their plots was becoming questionable at best.
If you are making an omelet a few eggs have to get broken, but the end result is usually worth it.
I do find it funny how Many Arrows is an enemy of Luruar. The Orc King prologue (which took place around the time of the New Realms (1479 DR) went on about how it was a shining light of goodness to be looked up to.
I am thoroughly convinced that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing at WotC. I can site at least a dozen examples off the top of my head where a designer/author said one thing and it turned out completely different. Do these guys even bother to talk to with each other, or are they so completely enthralled with threir own uber-kewlness that they are blind to what goes on around them?
I have NEVER seen a more NON-cohesive group trying to work toward a common goal.
As far as I'm concerned, 4e FR is NOT the work of a team, its the work of a bunch of conceited hacks that didn't even bother to confer with each other and all went in their own, seperate directions.
This is one for those things that will go down in gaming history as an example of "how NOT to run a company".
Forget WotC - I'm writing a letter to Hasbro, and I think most of you should do the same. Something must be done to stop this incompetence before they do any more damage to a valuable IP.
I am thoroughly convinced that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing at WotC. I can site at least a half dozen examples off the top of my head where a designer said one thing and it turned out completely different. Do these guys even bother to talk to with each other, or are they so completely enthralled with threir own uber-kewlness that they are blind to what goes on around them?
I have NEVER seen a more NON-cohesive group trying to work toward a common goal.
As far as I'm concerned, 4e FR is NOT the work of a team, its the work of a bunch of conceited hacks that didn't even bother to confer with each other and all went in their own, seperate directions.
This is one for those things that will go down in gaming history as an example of "how NOT to run a company".
Forget WotC - I'm writing a letter to Hasbro, and I think most of you should do the same. Something must be done to stop this incompetence before they do any more damage to a valuable IP.
Oh, and I suppose TSR was the model of efficiency, or Palladium (massive internal theft - personal fief of Kevin Siembieda) ,or Steve Jackson games (many many rewrites and a system that after 4 editions still isn't taken seriously), or... No gaming company has even made it 25 years yet without major changes, a problem with an industry that is still considered to be the province of geeks and nerds.
Stop making excuses for them, naex.
Ah, so because other groups are bad, that should excuse the market leader from making basic mistakes in one of their premier lines of IP? I see.
Stop making excuses for them, naex.
I am not making excuses for them, I am pointing out this is a fledgling industry, and everyone thinks they know how to make it work, yet so far no business model has been effective.
And I could say stop attacking them, since they are trying to provide what their fans want, even when those wants are contradictory to each other. Give them a chance to make it work before saying they are all evil and must be stopped, or go out and do it yourself, and demonstrate to the few of us who are grateful to them for giving us tools to work with how it should be done.
I am not making excuses for them, I am pointing out this is a fledgling industry, and everyone thinks they know how to make it work, yet so far no business model has been effective.
And I could say stop attacking them, since they are trying to provide what their fans want, even when those wants are contradictory to each other. Give them a chance to make it work before saying they are all evil and must be stopped, or go out and do it yourself, and demonstrate to the few of us who are grateful to them for giving us tools to work with how it should be done.
fledging industry? How is that? RPGs have been around for 30+ years. Games have been around since well, forever.
Admittedly, I think the irony is that it works better as a producer of IP than as a industry itself. RPGs don't necessarilly make a huge amount of money, but they make a ridiculous amount of devoted fans.
fledging industry? How is that? RPGs have been around for 30+ years. Games have been around since well, forever.
30+ years. and I am still called a young man by some (fewer and fewer). And no company has actually lasted 30+ years, TSR was the longest running, and it was all but defunct before WotC bought it out and breathed new life into it. The computer gaming industry is a fledgling industry as well, and look at there fan base, they have found a way to get past the only geeks and nerds concept and are more profitable by far then any gaming company has ever been. The rpg industry is still trying to find a way to succeed, and that means trying new things.
The naysaying around here is hilarious.
In a tiresome sort of way. Now, watch us both get reported for being offensive.
So the Harpers decided to go underground. Big deal.
That and Lorraine Williams (I think that's her name)
Fledgling industry or not (And WoTC are hardly a new company to this RPG thing), I'd have expected them to get basics right. Salvatore's book showed the Many-Arrows Orcs as respectable allies. This excerpt shows the Many-Arrows Orcs as enemies.
To be fair, WoTC have never been good at that sort of thing.
Doesn't mean there's not something new that's the NEW Harpers.
Even if they did disband, they might have rebanded by the current Era.
They disbanded, as shown in the FRCG.
FRCG is wrong, as far as I'm concerned, but then I want to play an RPG, not worship the authors of a setting and get worked up into a lather about whether they zapped some fictional group of do-gooders or not.
Out of curiosity, who would have the authority to disband the Harpers?
As to why they disbanded, a large portion of the Harpers were spellcasters, who knows how many were lost to the Spellplague. Add to that and the loss of Mystra and the reorganizing of the other gods that supported them and there might be a reason for it.
Bel
FRCG is wrong, as far as I'm concerned, but then I want to play an RPG, not worship the authors of a setting and get worked up into a lather about whether they zapped some fictional group of do-gooders or not.
Out of curiosity, who would have the authority to disband the Harpers?
Like I said, the leadership of the Harpers was largely the chosen of Mystra, so a better question would be, what would hold them together without that central authority? They were never a tight group, and each smaller subset had their own enemies and tactics.
FRCG is wrong, as far as I'm concerned, but then I want to play an RPG, not worship the authors of a setting and get worked up into a lather about whether they zapped some fictional group of do-gooders or not.
Out of curiosity, who would have the authority to disband the Harpers?
Well, pardon me for talking about the canonical Realms, and not the Realms of Colman. Of course we all play our on RPG's, set in our individual Realms, but given that we are, on this thread, discussing the canonical Realms, perhaps we should refer to just the canonical Realms, and not our own individual games?
Anyway, Elminster would. Or Khelben. Or the lass in charge of them down in Berdusk.
Well, pardon me for talking about the canonical Realms, and not the Realms of Colman. Of course we all play our on RPG's, set in our individual Realms, but given that we are, on this thread, discussing the canonical Realms, perhaps we should refer to just the canonical Realms, and not our own individual games?
Anyway, Elminster would. Or Khelben. Or the lass in charge of them down in Berdusk.
Ok.
Cannon, Elminster is insane.
Cannon, Khelben is dead.
Cannon, Berdusk was only the Eastern branch of the Harpers, and they had already started becoming more a knightly order with apprentices and masters than a secretive organization working from the shadows to defend trade and fight tyranny.
Oh, and then we have Storm Silverhand. Or Alustriel. Or one of the Chosen, before death. Or maybe they just disbanded from lack of members.
Either way, it's hardly important who disbanded them, is it?
Storm's fate is unknown, Alustriel is dead.
I would assume all the seven sisters are dead
I would assume all the seven sisters are dead
They have hinted that most were dead, but there might be one or two still around. Laeral had set up shop in the restored Elven city from Blackstaff, and she might still be around, and I am betting on Storm making it through. I think we lost the Symbul, since she was the one closest to Mystra, besides Elminster. We can only account for two so far that we know to be dead, Alustriel and Qilue.
30+ years. and I am still called a young man by some (fewer and fewer). And no company has actually lasted 30+ years, TSR was the longest running, and it was all but defunct before WotC bought it out and breathed new life into it. The computer gaming industry is a fledgling industry as well, and look at there fan base, they have found a way to get past the only geeks and nerds concept and are more profitable by far then any gaming company has ever been. The rpg industry is still trying to find a way to succeed, and that means trying new things.
White Wolf, it's almost on it's twenties.
They have hinted that most were dead, but there might be one or two still around. Laeral had set up shop in the restored Elven city from Blackstaff, and she might still be around, and I am betting on Storm making it through. I think we lost the Symbul, since she was the one closest to Mystra, besides Elminster. We can only account for two so far that we know to be dead, Alustriel and Qilue.
but without Mystra, wouldn't they have died of old age
Like I said, the leadership of the Harpers was largely the chosen of Mystra, so a better question would be, what would hold them together without that central authority? They were never a tight group, and each smaller subset had their own enemies and tactics.
That's FALSE. There are 2 branches of Harpers, those based at Twilight Hall aren't lead by the Chosen, and the other branch is made of very independent Harpers that lend a hand to the Chosen a couple times.
They have hinted that most were dead, but there might be one or two still around. Laeral had set up shop in the restored Elven city from Blackstaff, and she might still be around, and I am betting on Storm making it through. I think we lost the Symbul, since she was the one closest to Mystra, besides Elminster. We can only account for two so far that we know to be dead, Alustriel and Qilue.
Oh, I think they are probably all dead. Why would they do this half-heartedly once they had started down this road? The aggregated furore for killing all of the Chosen (apart from El) would hardly be more than the death of one or two. The Chosen are viewed as a problem. Hence, TPK.
And would the utter disbandment of the Harpers come about with Storm around?
Considering their "links to the past" I can't really see Laeral or Dove working that hard to stick around either.
White Wolf, it's almost on it's twenties.
True, but their retcon makes the changes to the realms look almost pleasant. And they lost me after less than 5 of those years, since I didn't like their take on magic, and I don't really find vampires to be cool or sexy.
True, but their retcon makes the changes to the realms look almost pleasant. And they lost me after less than 5 of those years, since I didn't like their take on magic, and I don't really find vampires to be cool or sexy.
That's why they were more brave than those cowards at WotC when they completely divorced the New World of Darkness from the old and left it for their fans without killing every piece of fun they had with it and turning the setting into a mocery of itself.
In that aspect: WW > WotC.
So the Harpers decided to go underground. Big deal.
Yes, it is a big deal.
I'm glad you undestand that.
And they haven't gone Underground - thats where the Aboleths live in 4e. They are gone... like the setting itself.
So far, Cormyr is the only thing I still recognize, and even that is different (with women becoming second-class citizens incapable of making decisions beyond what to wear).
I understand going for a 'retro feel' with 4e D&D, but this setting is beginning to look more and more like something that was designed in 1978, not 2008. Its nothing more then a bunch of poorly-pasted together ideas - none of which being original - and gluing them all over an already established world.
As much as BRJ's Cormyr article brought me back to FR, these two latest excerpts have driven me away... perhaps for good. Read a single paragraph from the Old Gray Box, and compare it to this dry, lifeless crap and you will understand what I mean.
They have completely sucked all the flavor out of the setting, just like they did to the rules.
For you guys that are still liking 4e - I tried, I REALLY did... but it's not worth the effort anymore.
Oh, I think they are probably all dead. Why would they do this half-heartedly once they had started down this road? The aggregated furore for killing all of the Chosen (apart from El) would hardly be more than the death of one or two. The Chosen are viewed as a problem. Hence, TPK.
And would the utter disbandment of the Harpers come about with Storm around?
Considering their "links to the past" I can't really see Laeral or Dove working that hard to stick around either.
Well, maybe Storm was distraught over the loss of so many sisters after the spellplague and was also too busy trying to help Elminster hold on to sanity to stop the Harpers from breaking up. I thought they had hinted that not all seven were dead, and I am betting on at least Laeral still being around, since she has already gone insane once and came back from it, in many ways she is the strongest of the seven.
I thought they had hinted that not all seven were dead, and I am betting on at least Laeral still being around, since she has already gone insane once and came back from it, in many ways she is the strongest of the seven.
I don't remember this hint.
As for Laer, well, I am not going to hope at this point. It has turned out to be little more than asking for disappointment.
For her previous bout of insanity, are you refering to the Crown of Horns? If so, didn't she get better with Khelben's help last time? Apologies if you are not. I still have much to learn.
I don't remember this hint.
As for Laer, well, I am not going to hope at this point. It has turned out to be little more than asking for disappointment.
For her previous bout of insanity, are you refering to the Crown of Horns? If so, didn't she get better with Khelben's help last time? Apologies if you are not. I still have much to learn.
No need to aplogize (WotC is the one who should do that for everything since 4ed was announced). And you are right, it was Khelben who saved Laeral from the Crown of Horns.
Anything beyond that rather vague (and old) hint was pure conjecture.
You know something funny? I didn't really care for Mystra. I could never really wrap my mind around the weave, either (too confusing when you think in terms outside of Realmspace).
Lastly, I greatly disliked the Harpers... and yet, all of those things contributed to what made the Realms the Realms.
They got rid of things I didn't like, and I hate them for it. Go figure.
I guess that just proves I have bad taste.
No need to aplogize (WotC is the one who should do that for everything since 4ed was announced). And you are right, it was Khelben who saved Laeral from the Crown of Horns.
You mean the one in the Great Dale that that Demon is wearing now?
The exact hint - which was I believe was by Rich Baker - is that "the fans of the Chosen will not be very happy".
Anything beyond that rather vague (and old) hint was pure conjecture.
You know something funny? I didn't really care for Mystra. I could never really wrap my mind around the weave, either (too confusing when you think in terms outside of Realmspace).
Lastly, I greatly disliked the Harpers... and yet, all of those things contributed to what made the Realms the Realms.
They got rid of things I didn't like, and I hate them for it. Go figure.
I guess that just proves I have bad taste.
No, that means you recognize things that matter, even if you don't agree with them.
The Harpers were the enforcement arm of the chosen...
Not true. The Harpers and the Chosen of Mystra, as groups, have seperate goals.
I understand a lot of you are hurt about the changes being made, but, would it be to much to ask that anyone posting a positive opinion of the things we read not be dismissed as unworthy FR lovers?
It's okay to not like the changes. It's okay to like the changes and nothing is wrong with either group here... sadly, I see more and more negative post because (like myself) people here that like what they see are being shouted out.
Maybe I'm overly optimistic (
), but I doubt 4e FR is epic fail...Edit; the eye rolling is about my being optimistic, not at anyone here... just want to make that clear.
Maybe I'm over optimistic (
It's the end of the realms.
Maybe I'm over optimistic (
why? I mean no offense to you or your opinion. You are obviously entitled to it.
But what makes you think this will not be an epic failure?
It's okay to like the changes and nothing is wrong with either group here... sadly, I see more and more negative post because (like myself) people here that like what they see are being shouted out.
I'm awfully tempted to ask for some 4e Forgotten Realms forums to be set-up, though I've now resolved to just try and ignore the complaining rather than even engaging it, which isn't helpful.
It is, however, incredibly annoying and frustrating to have every discussion side-tracked into how the horrible, mercenary publishers have destroyed everything.
They got rid of things I didn't like, and I hate them for it. Go figure.
I guess that just proves I have bad taste.
Better to have bad taste than no taste at all, I say.;)
I understand a lot of you are hurt about the changes being made, but, would it be to much to ask that anyone posting a positive opinion of the things we read not be dismissed as unworthy FR lovers?
I don't recall doing that.
I'm awfully tempted to ask for some 4e Forgotten Realms forums to be set-up, though I've now resolved to just try and ignore the complaining rather than even engaging it, which isn't helpful.
It is, however, incredibly annoying and frustrating to have every discussion side-tracked into how the horrible, mercenary publishers have destroyed everything.
well, if the horrible publsihers didn't, in fact, destroy everything we wouldn't be saying it
It is, however, incredibly annoying and frustrating to have every discussion side-tracked into how the horrible, mercenary publishers have destroyed everything.
This is definitely a case where people need to remember that if they are unhappy that they need to attack the message, not the messenger.
Not that either is going to make the slightest bit of difference to the reimagining of the Realms... but it would make this place slightly nicer to be around. And I speak as one who doesn't agree with the changes. That is one reason I have tried to keep my posts to the logical, recently, and cut down on partisan emotional outpourings.
You know (and this is not said to upset anyone), I find it hard to post here lately. I'm a huge FR fan and have been following the peeks and sneaks rather closely. That said, I enjoy the Realms and find no place friendly on this part of the boards.
I understand a lot of you are hurt about the changes being made, but, would it be to much to ask that anyone posting a positive opinion of the things we read not be dismissed as unworthy FR lovers?
It's okay to not like the changes. It's okay to like the changes and nothing is wrong with either group here... sadly, I see more and more negative post because (like myself) people here that like what they see are being shouted out.
Maybe I'm overly optimistic (
Edit; the eye rolling is about my being optimistic, not at anyone here... just want to make that clear.
I don't recall doing that.
The aggregate effect is pretty much that. It doesn't need to be said directly: there's an in-group and an out-group, and if you don't hate the changes you're in the out-group.
Don't worry mate there are others out here, but I still tend to read rather than join in, due to fear of being torn apart for being optimistic or happy with changes. Hopefully when the new Realms book is out and people have left in disgust we can discuss in safety. on that note I'm running away now.....
We're not going anywhere.
Don't worry mate there are others out here, but I still tend to read rather than join in, due to fear of being torn apart for being optimistic or happy with changes. Hopefully when the new Realms book is out and people have left in disgust we can discuss in safety. on that note I'm running away now.....
Saying "I love this" or "I hate this" isn't helping the situation much. On the other hand "I love this because " or "I hate this because "... now surely that is what a discussion forum is about?
Not least because if people want the designers (who, let's face it are calling the shots here) to consider their reasons for things and possibly take them into account in future then surely either blind worship or fury isn't the way to go about it?
YMMV, but I'm willing to bet this has a positive effect on gamers who previously felt it was too daunting to get into. I'm not claiming this as fact or even that is is the best course of action, but I've been trying to talk her into a Realms game for years... and now she wants to play in FR. Win win for me.
Aside from this, I'm okay with change... I've seen it before and I understand why it's happening. There are some things I don't care for, but this isn't new with FR or 4e. Like always, we take what we're given and go from there.
Personally, I like most of the changes. I'd like to talk about them in a friendly, constructive enviorment... but it's hard to do here. We are all fans of the Realms and we all feel moved by the changes being made.
I also think of this outside of my own perspective. I see the potential for growth and bring in new (and old) fans for FR. It's sad that it is driving some away, but I feel it is in the best interests of the Realms as a whole.
The aggregate effect is pretty much that. It doesn't need to be said directly: there's an in-group and an out-group, and if you don't hate the changes you're in the out-group.
Well, that's how it is to people who don't know how to think critically.
I'm not responsible for posts that I didn't make, and I refuse to take responsibility for them. That's the bottomline as far as I'm concerned.
I'm not responsible for posts that I didn't make, and I refuse to take responsibility for them.
I'm not talking specifically about you but the feel of the discussions in the forum.
We're not going anywhere.
.
Personally, I like most of the changes. I'd like to talk about them in a friendly, constructive enviorment... but it's hard to do here. We are all fans of the Realms and we all feel moved by the changes being made.
Don't you think it'd be more friendly and constructive, then, to refrain from saying that those who don't agree with you are all out to tear you apart?
I'm not talking specifically about you...
I appreciate that, but still stand by my main point.
18DELTA
This is definitely a case where people need to remember that if they are unhappy that they need to attack the message, not the messenger.
Not that either is going to make the slightest bit of difference to the reimagining of the Realms... but it would make this place slightly nicer to be around. And I speak as one who doesn't agree with the changes. That is one reason I have tried to keep my posts to the logical, recently, and cut down on partisan emotional outpourings.
-QFT.
18DELTA
We're not going anywhere.
What about going Pathfinder and leaving the Realms to those of us actually happy with the changes so far?
I've seen enough threads on the FR boards shouting Pathfinder's praises that I had to double check to see if I had stumbled onto the Paizo boards by error.
As others have mentioned the pervasive negativity on these boards is tiresome and one that severely discourages any open discussion on what the Realms are shaping up to be.
Change is good, if we allow FR to ossify or its lore to become akin to some untouchable holy writ it'll just end up like 3E Greyhawk, and I doubt any of us would want that, would we?
What about going Pathfinder and leaving the Realms to those of us actually happy with the changes so far?
Because the Realms belong to everybody and I'm not going to give it away to a group of people who can't understand how all these particular changes are killing the setting. This doesn't means I'm not going to give a shot to Pathfinder too, because I love quality work and I'm not tied to one setting and one game (hell, I've played 7th Sea, oWod and nWoD, Sacred, Robotech, Warhammer, Heroes Unlimited, and so on)
Change is good
If it's done properly, which this isn't the case.
if we allow FR to ossify
That never happened.
or its lore to become akin to some untouchable holy writ it'll just end up like 3E Greyhawk, and I doubt any of us would want that, would we?
You need consistency, the one thing that ALL this new edition LACKS, without it you only have a gelatine cube that has no structure or shape. Greyhawk died a long before 3rd edition, ask MarkusTay.
18DELTA
Don't you think it'd be more friendly and constructive, then, to refrain from saying that those who don't agree with you are all out to tear you apart?
To be honest thats a good point. Hmm how can I put this...it's not really a case of people attacking me it simply gets me down with the negativity here and I know their are many dedicated fans here who are upset about the changes but to be honest a few months ago I almost gave up on Realms not because of the changes but because of the fans. Now that is not aimed at anyone personally but one of my loves for the Realms was the fan based discussions, these now appear to have turned into non stop arguements. Debates about all things Realms happened in the past but felt more constructive like both sides listened to each other agreeing to disagree if you like. I also find it difficult to understand why people who have so little liking for the New Realms choose to stay and complain again I understand that they hardcore fans but really I think it is to late the changes have been made and I am certain that most people on these forums now know that others dislike the changes including Wizards staff, the point has been made so to speak. So really I don't tend to post because I feel how are any comments I might make be received or listened to at all and earlier I felt the need to comment for someone else who appears to feel it is difficult to post as well. No personnal offence was mean't to any one person.
My personal reason is that at least one person will come here who has the potential to like the True Realms, and he is going to need somebody to point the way. If I leave, that person will have less chances of knowing the True Realms.
I'm not attacking people or saying their are here to 'rip me apart'... but comments like the one above are exactly what is wrong with the FR area on these boards.
It isn't wrong to have an opinion, but stating it as fact and going out of your way to deter people from enjoying the game is wrong (IMHO).
What about going Pathfinder and leaving the Realms to those of us actually happy with the changes so far?
People can do that if they want, but they don't have to leave just because you wish they would.
To be honest thats a good point. Hmm how can I put this...it's not really a case of people attacking me it simply gets me down with the negativity here and I know their are many dedicated fans here who are upset about the changes but to be honest a few months ago I almost gave up on Realms not because of the changes but because of the fans.
If all the negativity stops even one person from buying into this abortion, then it was all worth it. ;)
They didn't stick new things into FR, they stuck tiny pieces of FR into a new setting.
If you think what you are playing in is FR, it means you never really understood FR.
A name does not a setting make.
...I don't even know why I bother...
I'm not attacking people or saying their are here to 'rip me apart'... but comments like the one above are exactly what is wrong with the FR area on these boards.
I'm just going by what you posted, friend:
That said, I enjoy the Realms and find no place friendly on this part of the boards.
I understand a lot of you are hurt about the changes being made, but, would it be to much to ask that anyone posting a positive opinion of the things we read not be dismissed as unworthy FR lovers?
Is everyone here so unfriendly? I'm hoping you didn't mean that.
I wont be listening. Will that make me less than a fan? Not in my opinion. 18DELTA ;)
-I belive that everybody has the right to come to their own conclusions about the Realms 3E or 4E. Now if someone wants to steadily preach about how evil the 4E Realms are I say knock yourself out.
18DELTA ;)
well put. I'll head back to lurking, the drama will fade eventually I'm sure.
...I don't even know why I bother...
I'm not attacking people or saying their are here to 'rip me apart'... but comments like the one above are exactly what is wrong with the FR area on these boards.
It isn't wrong to have an opinion, but stating it as fact and going out of your way to deter people from enjoying the game is wrong (IMHO).
Hang in there, you are not alone in your thoughts that the Realms can still be a very fun place to game in. I personally am very happy with what they have done but then again I like change. I had actually stopped DMing in the Realms because for me it had lost it sense of wonder, as most every location had been detailed to death. Now it's exciting again for me. I LIKE not knowing what's just over the mountain. Could be the same as before or it could be totally changed. New locals, new bad guys, new organizations, but still some recognizable stuff. Great recipe IMHO. Plus as DM, if they killed off something I really liked, I'd just ignore that part and add it back in.
As for the tone of people on this board, I'd have to agree but that is a general statement of opinion and general statements don't always hold true for everyone. I come here to find out info about the NEW setting and get new ideas but it gets tedious after a while to sort thought all the "ORL's" (Old Realms Lovers) complaining about how WotC had ruined everything and what a horrible thing they are doing. I wish they'd make a new Realms sub section for complaining and those type of posters could all get together there and leave this section for innovation and inspiration in the new realms.
To be honest thats a good point.
Of course it is.;)
I also find it difficult to understand why people who have so little liking for the New Realms choose to stay and complain again I understand that they hardcore fans but really I think it is to late the changes have been made and I am certain that most people on these forums now know that others dislike the changes including Wizards staff, the point has been made so to speak.
Keep in mind that these boards are supposed to be edition-neutral (the Wiz_Os haven't said only 4E Realms can be discussed here). People are supposed to be polite, but they don't need to leave even if they don't like the new Realms.
So really I don't tend to post because I feel how are any comments I might make be received or listened to at all and earlier I felt the need to comment for someone else who appears to feel it is difficult to post as well.
You can't control whether or not people listen you. People are supposed to be polite to each other though, like I said.
No personnal offence was mean't to any one person. By the way I know my punctuation is appalling.
Eh, I've seen worse.;)
What about going Pathfinder and leaving the Realms to those of us actually happy with the changes so far?
hmmmmm....I'm not sure if Wizards would be happy with just three or four people playing the Realms
-I belive that everybody has the right to come to their own conclusions about the Realms 3E or 4E. Now if someone wants to steadily preach about how evil the 4E Realms are I say knock yourself out.
18DELTA ;)
Well put
I'm just going by what you posted, friend:
Is everyone here so unfriendly? I'm hoping you didn't mean that.
No... I said I find no place friendly, not that on one is friendly. There are a lot of people here that I like, it's the overall atmosphere that is an issue for me.
hmmmmm....I'm not sure if Wizards would be happy with just three or four people playing the Realms
You can add another 5 to that. My entire gaming group is looking forward to heading back to the Realms now that it's fresh again. LOL...
You can add another 5 to that. My entire gaming group is looking forward to heading back to the Realms now that it's fresh again. LOL...
hey, they almost have 10 fans now
No... I said I find no place friendly, not that on one is friendly. There are a lot of people here that I like, it's the overall atmosphere that is an issue for me.
Well, I'm sorry it's like that for you. I hope the situation improves.
well put. I'll head back to lurking, the drama will fade eventually I'm sure.
-Don't lurk, post! You have a right to post here as anybody else.
18DELTA :D
My players held a moment of respectful silence for the passing of some of the old lore, but they are now looking forward to exploring the new realms and letting their PCs become the new harbingers of future legends.
For them FR is not a tome to memorize by rote, it is a canvas on which to immortalize their own tales.
For them FR is not a tome to memorize by rote, it is a canvas on which to immortalize their own tales.
Which is, interestingly enough, one reason why I don't like the new Realms. To many aspects of it conflict with what *I* want to do in my Realms, so I don't want use it.
It's not always a matter of just not wanting anything to change, or being someone who memorizes the source material. I stopped caring about "canon" a few years ago.
No... I said I find no place friendly, not that on one is friendly. There are a lot of people here that I like, it's the overall atmosphere that is an issue for me.
You are right, but whose fault is that. The people upset by the changes or the people making the changes. I submit its the latter as much as the former
Plus another 7 of us English are looking forward to the new Realms.
Which is, interestingly enough, one reason why I don't like the new Realms. To many aspects of it conflict with what *I* want to do in my Realms, so I don't want use it.
It's not always a matter of just not wanting anything to change, or being someone who memorizes the source material. I stopped caring about "canon" a few years ago.
I choose not to comment in every thread on these boards, because there are things that I have no interest in perusing, such as 3.5 PrCs or Pathfinder threads. I do not seek to keep others from having a positive discussion about pathfinder, even though I may not like what I see of it, I simply will not purchase it or any of it's associated products. There are many FR novels I will never buy, because I have no interest in the content.
I don't take the changes to the game I love and have played for years or the world I have tromped around in for so long personally, I have played a lot of games, and every edition of D&D, and I am glad that new things are being tried, it keeps the game from getting stale. To me it is about the story and having fun, not about the whether or not I or someone else does it right.
It seems that some of you have taken the changes personally, feeling that you have some insight into how the realms should be done, and some of your arguments are valid. But you choose to present those same arguments over and over, and eventually it gets old. There is a time and place to express discontent. I encourage it, it lets the designers know what the customers want. But when we are discussing 4e material, repeatedly telling us this is wrong or bad, is frustrating. How would you feel if your PrC thread (as an example - not citing anyone here, or making threats or suggestions) became full of posts about how there are no more PrCs and that they are now PrPs? You would be annoyed, since it was obvious you were writing 3.x material, not soliciting 4e comments.
Maybe we should run two threads for every new article, one for positive and one for negative, that way everyone gets a chance to use it as they will.
It's not always a matter of just not wanting anything to change, or being someone who memorizes the source material. I stopped caring about "canon" a few years ago.
Then why so distraught over changes to canon? or is it the mechanics of 4e that distresses you? or some combination of the above?
Then why so distraught over changes to canon?
Who said I'm "distraught" over them?
or is it the mechanics of 4e that distresses you?
Nope.
Who said I'm "distraught" over them?
glad to hear that, would "dislike" be a better way of putting it? ;)
glad to hear that, would "dislike" be a better way of putting it? ;)
Yes, "dislike" is a much, much more appropriate word.
The reason I still care is because I liked a lot of the things that have been removed, such Mystra, Eilistraee, the Chosen, the old-style Harpers, etc. I'll make my Realms however I want, but I'll miss hearing new lore about the stuff I liked (except from Ed Greenwood on Candlekeep.com). I did read the novels (although I did not feel "bound" to them), and enjoyed the stories about the stuff I liked. Few if any more stories or lore is going to be written about them, now. For some people, that's just fine, and I respect that, just understand that for other people there is a loss. Nothing I'm "distraught" over, but it's disappointing.
Yes, "dislike" is a much, much more appropriate word.
The reason I still care is because I liked a lot of the things that have been removed, such Mystra, Eilistraee, the Chosen, the old-style Harpers, etc. I'll make my Realms however I want, but I'll miss hearing new lore about the stuff I liked (except from Ed Greenwood on Candlekeep.com). I did read the novels (although I did not feel "bound" to them), and enjoyed the stories about the stuff I liked. Few if any more stories or lore is going to be written about them, now. For some people, that's just fine, and I respect that, just understand that for other people there is a loss. Nothing I'm "distraught" over, but it's disappointing.
Thats exactly how I feel, although perhaps distraught is an appropriate choice of words for me. The new excerpt might just have taken it to that level
Thats exactly how I feel, although perhaps distraught is an appropriate choice of words for me. The new excerpt might just have taken it to that level
I don't think so:
distraught:
1. distracted; deeply agitated.
2. mentally deranged; crazed.
That's a very strong word to describe feelings over a fictional setting. I wouldn't say there's no one out there feeling distraught over the changes, but they would be few.
I don't think so:
That's a very strong word to describe feelings over a fictional setting. I wouldn't say there's no one out there feeling distraught over the changes, but they would be few.
well. I have often been accused of being #2 of that so.......
well. I have often been accused of being #2 of that so.......
Oh yes, that.:P
Honestly, I'm surprised--I figured she'd be one of the Sisters who actually survived, as many people seemed to like her.
Yeah I liked Alustriel out of all the sisters. Sad to see her go.
What I don't understand was it was Shar's plot to destroy the Weave and Mystra...it is then said she didn't expect the Shadow Weave to be destroyed so it makes it seems that Shar lost in the end. I don't think she lost at all. Now with Mystra out of picture who was really the only one who could stand up against uber Shar, Shar is "big evil god of the Realms".
While Bane is prominent in some areas, I still think Shar has the most worshipers.
I was never a fan of the Harpers but they could easily reform and choose a different name since everyone know the Harpers name.
I still like the name Silverymoon better.
Please do not use this thread to debate where people should post.
WizO_Unicorn
-Please return to the topic (Luruar). Anything else is spam, and will be treated as such.
Back on Topic
I've been playing FR since gray box and don't remember this region being called Luruar?
I'm going to take a guess that this excerpt isn't complete. Things have been left out on purpose.
I've been playing FR since gray box and don't remember this region being called Luruar?
-If I recall correctly, at some convention in the '80s or '90s, there was a poll to rename the region, and 'Luruar' was the winner.
I'm going to take a guess that this excerpt isn't complete. Things have been left out on purpose.
-Doesn't seem that way. This, like all of the other FRCG previews is a direct scan. What is missing, however, would be complimentary information elsewhere in the book, to provide more context.
I think it was officially called Luruar in one product, and 'somebody' decided it was too hard to pronounce, and it was referred to as the 'Silver Marches' ever since.
However, technically, the central kingdom encompassing Silverymoon and its environs has still been Luruar since then, weather they used that name anywhere or not.
I guess they decided bringing back that name would give the place a 'new feel'.
Edit: I HATE you, Karsus... thats twice today...
;) :P
Don't worry mate there are others out here, but I still tend to read rather than join in, due to fear of being torn apart for being optimistic or happy with changes. Hopefully when the new Realms book is out and people have left in disgust we can discuss in safety. on that note I'm running away now.....
Please, post away. I have been posting that I like the concept of the changes for the last several months and have not been torn apart. I only got chewed up a bit when I would ask people to tone down the negativity. Asking that would cause the tearing at times. Don't worry, there are others here that are not hateful and negative towards the change.
I believe Rich siad they had plans for the Harpers. I am sure this little excerpt is not the final word on them and the fact that people are acting the way they are because of an excerpt, well it makes me chuckle.
Distraught may be how some people feel from their reactions. Odd. I am distraught only over real life issues, kids, wife, job and money. Different strokes for different...
Anyway I hope to see the writeup of Silverymoon. If it is not detailed enough in the CG then I hope to see a DDI article on it. Hopefully the anti-evil magic/ward is gone. That made the place very dull for my PCs. I never had them go there.
If all the negativity stops even one person from buying into this abortion, then it was all worth it. ;)
They didn't stick new things into FR, they stuck tiny pieces of FR into a new setting.
If you think what you are playing in is FR, it means you never really understood FR.
A name does not a setting make.
I disagree with this totally. I am a fan since '87. I read many novels and 2E sourcebooks as well as all of the 3E stuff. To me this is still the Realms just many years later and without things that I and other players did not like.
I am sorry many people are so distraught over the changes. I like them (I think, I have not really seen the final book yet) and I am pretty damn sure I understood the Realms.
You and some other folks here do not like it, that is fine. I am not going to be ******** enough to say that all of the haters never "understood" the Realms if they don't like the changes. It would be silly as well as ********.
Voicing my opinion since LK and the Wizos said it was ok. ;)
I am curious as to how Lurar kept the forces of Nethril at bay for so long.
I am curious as to how Lurar kept the forces of Nethril at bay for so long.
-Because it's an equally powerful, if not more powerful, confederation of states?
I am curious as to how Lurar kept the forces of Nethril at bay for so long.
Probably because they're surrounded by enemies. They've got Luruar to the west, Imperial Cormyr to the south, and the Dalelands to the east (and probably Zhentil Keep, as well). They're apparently pretty tough, but they don't got a shortage of enemies.
I disagree with this totally. I am a fan since '87. I read many novels and 2E sourcebooks as well as all of the 3E stuff. To me this is still the Realms just many years later and without things that I and other players did not like.
I am sorry many people are so distraught over the changes. I like them (I think, I have not really seen the final book yet) and I am pretty damn sure I understood the Realms.
Well, I would not make a statement that you don't understand the Realms. I am sure you do.
I honestly feel they took the Realms away from us with this. I am getting more and more confident with this opinion every time they release these "excerpts".
I post my thoughts just to show the people that do like it that there are others that feel the smae way they do and it is okay to post on these forums. You really are not alone. More and more people who like the changes are voicing their opinions here and that is a good thing. Hopefully these forums can be filled with interesting posts about actual gaming and not just negthreads that we have seen for the last year. Hell the only reason why these boards split is because of all the negthreads, not about anything interesting and positive and fun Realms related. Why? Because this is the internet and forums are filled with negthreads. If you really want to cry go to the D&D General Forums. Wow, lots of much nastier folk dwell there than here.
-Because it's an equally powerful, if not more powerful, confederation of states?
I hope this is the case. I will not be pleased if Nethril is the all powerful evil empire that cannot be stopped.
So did the excerpt say that Many Arrows is enemies with Lurar?
So did the excerpt say that Many Arrows is enemies with Lurar?
-Yes, yes it did. Which directly conflicts with the prologue/epilogue of The Orc King, which I just started reading a few days ago.
-Yes, yes it did. Which directly conflicts with the prologue/epilogue of The Orc King, which I just started reading a few days ago.
I am a RAS fan and decide not to read the new book. I found that RAS ignores stuff done by the designers if it does not suit his story. Kinda scary.
I am a RAS fan and decide not to read the new book. I found that RAS ignores stuff done by the designers if it does not suit his story. Kinda scary.
-Unfortunately, yes, yes he does. That, and he writes in the past, which, in turn, screws up the future.
-I'm not particularly interested in the tales of Drizzt anymore, but I needed a book, and there were no Forgotten Realms books at the store that I hadn't read, so it was either this or nothing.
-Unfortunately, yes, yes he does. That, and he writes in the past, which, in turn, screws up the future.
-I'm not particularly interested in the tales of Drizzt anymore, but I needed a book, and there were no Forgotten Realms books at the store that I hadn't read, so it was either this or nothing.
Gotcha. Unless his next few tales are of Drizzt on the road I will not pick them up.
I will read another Artemis story or one about Cadderly and I would definitely pick up a Jarxle (sp?) series. The big J is RAS next mealticket IMO. :D
I would say they took it from you, not us. Some folks like it and some are hating the hell out of it. ;)
.
By us, I mean the fairly substanial group of Realms fans who feel the way I do. I may fly off the handle every once in awhile about these changes (especially stuff like the time jump or the destruction of the harpers), but do not construe that as a criticism for fans of the Realms who like it.
Sorry if I was coming off harsh earlier today, but I think I lost my final tie the Realms.
I no longer care what happens to it, one way or the other.
There is nothing in the new Realms that makes me feel at home, so I might as well finally move on.
And the thing that gets me is that I really, REALLY tried to see the bright side of the changes, but I can't make excuses anymore. The last time I had this feeling of total boredom was when I tried to read the Kalimar campaign book.
Maybe I'll buy the FRCG anyway... the Kalimar book is getting worn, and I still need a cure for my chronic insomnia. :P
Many folks who hate the changes will pick up the new book I believe. Just so they can have new ammunition to shoot around their anti-4EFR bullets on these forums. This is the net afterall. ;)
DDI articles on Luruar will be nice IMO.
Ahh, but you continue to post here even though you dislike the whole setting.
Many folks who hate the changes will pick up the new book I believe. Just so they can have new ammunition to shoot around their anti-4EFR bullets on these forums. This is the net afterall. ;)
DDI articles on Luruar will be nice IMO.
This is still the FR forum.
Not just the 4E FR forum.
This is still the FR forum.
Not just the 4E FR forum.
Right you are. We still love the Realms just not the 4-Gotten Realms
Many folks who hate the changes will pick up the new book I believe. Just so they can have new ammunition to shoot around their anti-4EFR bullets on these forums. This is the net afterall. ;)
-Thats going to be a blast!
-They killd Cormyran pitchfork farmer #88 those
!!!!!!!!! :P18DELTA
--They killd Cormyran pitchfork farmer #88 those
18DELTA
What?! They did?!! Those bastards
This is still the FR forum.
Not just the 4E FR forum.
But folks who like/love FR seem to love to post about their 4EFR hate even more than just talking about the Realms they do love. Which is fine. It is funny to me when they say they ar through with it which they are clearly not.
I am not making excuses for them, I am pointing out this is a fledgling industry, and everyone thinks they know how to make it work, yet so far no business model has been effective.
And I could say stop attacking them, since they are trying to provide what their fans want, even when those wants are contradictory to each other. Give them a chance to make it work before saying they are all evil and must be stopped, or go out and do it yourself, and demonstrate to the few of us who are grateful to them for giving us tools to work with how it should be done.
Word. (I am 33, I should not have said "Word". Oh well.)
Gotcha. Unless his next few tales are of Drizzt on the road I will not pick them up.
I will read another Artemis story or one about Cadderly and I would definitely pick up a Jarxle (sp?) series. The big J is RAS next mealticket IMO. :D
-Of all of those, the only one I'd be mildly interested in would be Jarlaxle. Cadderly, I'm not interested in (and is apparently dead in the new Realms anyway), and Drizzt is done and overplayed.
-An interesting idea: If Jarlaxle survives along with his organization, an interesting way of him monopolizing on the chaos would be to make BD more of a merchant-type company. For example, when those people in the Silver Marches have goods they want to move, but the Shades are up their asses, and they are having trouble sending merchants, Jarlaxle and BD to the rescue. For a substantial sum, he'll take those caravans through the Underdark, to where they need to go.
-The "Points of Light" are surrounded by darkness, yes. Jarlaxle goes under the darkness.
FRCG is wrong, as far as I'm concerned, but then I want to play an RPG, not worship the authors of a setting and get worked up into a lather about whether they zapped some fictional group of do-gooders or not.
Out of curiosity, who would have the authority to disband the Harpers?
Word again! (damn, I just did it again.)
Who disbanded them? Probably nobody officially, but when they all start getting killed off by badguys and many of their leaders are dead I bet it just seemed a good idea at the time to go undergound.
Who disbanded them?
-Their council of leaders. They're in charge. ;)
-Of all of those, the only one I'd be mildly interested in would be Jarlaxle. Cadderly, I'm not interested in (and is apparently dead in the new Realms anyway), and Drizzt is done and overplayed.
-An interesting idea: If Jarlaxle survives along with his organization, an interesting way of him monopolizing on the chaos would be to make BD more of a merchant-type company. For example, when those people in the Silver Marches have goods they want to move, but the Shades are up their asses, and they are having trouble sending merchants, Jarlaxle and BD to the rescue. For a substantial sum, he'll take those caravans through the Underdark, to where they need to go.
-The "Points of Light" are surrounded by darkness, yes. Jarlaxle goes under the darkness.
Yep, J is an interesting guy IMO. His is a great evil protaginist. Only Phaerim was close to how intersting J was when it cam to drow.
Unfortunately, now we have to deal with why Drizzt hates the Silver Marches.
HAHAHAH.
-Their council of leaders. They're in charge. ;)
Yeah, but when they were first getting killed off I bet the leaders were the first to go.
Yep, J is an interesting guy IMO. His is a great evil protaginist. Only Phaerim was close to how intersting J was when it cam to drow.
-Phaeraun lacked the ambition, swagger, and resources that Jarlaxle has. Using Jarlaxle's history, with the theory I put up, I could see him then taking the caravans hostage, and causing those who hired him to pay a ransom. Or, him delivering the caravans to enemies, and claiming that they were attacked by Underdark creatures. Or something of that ilk.
Yeah, but when they were first getting killed off I bet the leaders were the first to go.
-And, how would the enemies of the Harpers know who the leaders of the Harpers were? Song of the Saurials goes into some good descriptions at the beginning about some of the precautions and such that the Harper leaders, at the time, used to protect themselves.
Sorry, didn't see L_K's warning.
But yes, big changes in this article.
-But, no, Drizzt, the Silver Marches, Orcs, they're all in the okay category. Sadly, Drizzt is relevant, here.
-And, how would the enemies of the Harpers know who the leaders of the Harpers were? Song of the Saurials goes into some good descriptions at the beginning about some of the precautions and such that the Harper leaders, at the time, used to protect themselves.
Because an author could always bring in some McGuffin that throws all of those precaussions out the window. Someone could have betrayed their fellows trust and named many of the leaders for instance.
-What is a McGuffin (though I understood your post)?
-A betrayal from inside the Harpers sounds...interesting.
-A betrayal from inside the Harpers sounds...interesting.
Although repetitive. Elaine Cunningham did the "betrayal from inside the Harpers' ranks" long ago, with her novel Elfsong. (I know you already know, just pointing it out again). **sigh**
It isn't wrong to have an opinion, but stating it as fact and going out of your way to deter people from enjoying the game is wrong (IMHO).
Friend, just use the ignore feature.
There are people you never see me respond to on these forums because I can't read their posts..
FWIW I used to have this huge urge to crush the constant elitist crap wherever I found it, because it wasn’t contributing anything useful to the FR Forums.
What I came to realize is that there are people who get off on being negative for the sake of negativity.
The nice part of it is they are self-identifying through their consistent negativity and the attacks they make. Just add them to your ignore list and BOOM, better experience.
::::::::::::::::::
Luruar. NICE!
Seems like a straightforward port of the old stuff...which is good. Easier transition for me at the gaming table.
Harpers? So long. I liked reading about you in FR fiction, but could never really implement you in my FR game.
I hope to see the Harpers grow and expand in new ways, but in novel fiction only.
Bel
Friend, just use the ignore feature.
There are people you never see me respond to on these forums because I can't read their posts..
FWIW I used to have this huge urge to crush the constant elitist crap wherever I found it, because it wasn’t contributing anything useful to the FR Forums.
What I came to realize is that there are people who get off on being negative for the sake of negativity.
The nice part of it is they are self-identifying through their consistent negativity and the attacks they make. Just add them to your ignore list and BOOM, better experience.
Well, well, well... Could it, perhaps, be so that us 'elitists' have our reasons for for being negative?
Yes. In fact, we do. They may vary though, but I belive that must of us dislike many of the new changes to the Realms.
They are largely inconsistent, ill thought-through and carry the brand of 'generic fantasy'. Indeed, they are not created by people that love the Realms, such as we do, but by people that desire to make money at any cost(by trashing, retconning, and contradicting twenty years of published lore).
Despite of what you may think, we CARE for the Realms, and we hate the fact that the world we love has been replaced by a bunch of Zhentish Headless Horsemen.
In fact, I belive that many of us find it puzzling(disturbing?) that someone can actually agree to the statement that the Realms needed a 'reboot'(a nicer word for 'dirtnap').
In fact, I belive that many of us find it puzzling(disturbing?) that someone can actually agree to the statement that the Realms needed a 'reboot'(a nicer word for 'dirtnap').
Completely agree.
Anyway, Luruar has its own problems. The Shadovar/Netherese. Tense relations with Many-Arrows. Giants. Menzo and Gracklstugh.
And then there is the greatest threat of all, possibly the greatest threat of all. One that was present in 2E, but which vanished in 3E. Soon all shall know of his return, and quake before his dark majesty.
Bow down before Volothamp Geddarm!
All shall love him and despair.
In fact, I belive that many of us find it puzzling(disturbing?) that someone can actually agree to the statement that the Realms needed a 'reboot'(a nicer word for 'dirtnap').
However, on the Luruar excerpt, what is actually rebooted?
The harpers are reduced to a smaller, more secretive organisation. that is a schange,a nd you migth cosnider it a signifiacnt change (depending on how mcuh you used the Harpers), but not a reboot. Alustriel is gone, and while I did like her, it is not a reboot either - people do die, normally. Btw, the second name of one of my PCs (Valencia) is Alustriel. In my campaign's history, the name became popular for some time with baby girls after her death to honor her. Valencia is one of the last girls to be named according to that short-lived tradition.
In general, I don't think it is that disastrous. Yes, some NPCs were very cool, and I honestly understand that it is fun to use them even in passing (which I do if given a chance). But the world is not necesarily different without them. New people take their place. The world goes on.
It's a new era.
However, on the Luruar excerpt, what is actually rebooted?
I can only speak for myself, but I consider the massive timejump to be a 'reboot' in that the designers set the timeline far forward enough so that the passage of time alone serves as reason for changes in many cases, and gives a great deal of leeway in others.
In the specific context of this entry, I mostly fixate on the Harpers, which have effectively had their slate cleaned, and been reset as a very small organization, lacking the scope and influence they once had. Set things back to nothing ('the Harpers were disbanded') and then remake it as you desire... sounds like a reboot to me, but it's sort of senseless to argue the terminology if we agree on the underlying fundamentals of what occured.
As far as Alustriel - I have no inherent problem with characters dying. However, I don't like characters being killed off lightly. I take issue with both 'how' and 'why'. I think that the rationale behind the majority of the major FR NPCs getting killed off to be inherently fallacious, and I think the way they've approached it has shown a certain degree of condescension towards those fans who felt those characters were an important part of what makes the Realms, the Realms.
Of course, that's simply my opinion.
Friend, just use the ignore feature.
There are people you never see me respond to on these forums because I can't read their posts..
FWIW I used to have this huge urge to crush the constant elitist crap wherever I found it, because it wasn’t contributing anything useful to the FR Forums.
What I came to realize is that there are people who get off on being negative for the sake of negativity.
The nice part of it is they are self-identifying through their consistent negativity and the attacks they make. Just add them to your ignore list and BOOM, better experience.
::::::::::::::::::
Luruar. NICE!
Seems like a straightforward port of the old stuff...which is good. Easier transition for me at the gaming table.
Harpers? So long. I liked reading about you in FR fiction, but could never really implement you in my FR game.
I hope to see the Harpers grow and expand in new ways, but in novel fiction only.
I should learn to use that feature more. It will make my life on these forums easier I guess.
This is still the FR forum.
Not just the 4E FR forum.
And that's a problem IMHO. They should have a sub-section dedicated to 4e constructive discussion. A place where those who are enjoying what they have done with the realms (and yes there are a number of us) can go to talk about how to play in the new Realms without having to filter out all the negative stuff that gets posted here.
Sorry LK. Just saw the request to post this elsewhere. Please feel free to move it to it's own topic/location.
However, on the Luruar excerpt, what is actually rebooted?
-The fact that the city and her people are inherently changed, because of the extra one-hundred years (+/-) of history that has been tacked on. The New York City of 1908 was nothing like the New York City of 2008.
-One thing stayed constant, though. The Cubs still haven't won the World Series.
But the changes between New York 1908 and New York 2008 should be a couple of orders of magnitude bigger than those in Silverymoon, due to the disparities in economic and technological systems between 1908 and 2008, will most of those things are probably largely unchanged in Luruar.
-In both cases, not particularly. Silverymoon, remember, is the Gem of the North. She has technological-magical implementations not seen anywhere else in the Forgotten Realms, and is a economic powerhouse in the region.
But the changes between New York 1908 and New York 2008 should be a couple of orders of magnitude bigger than those in Silverymoon, due to the disparities in economic and technological systems between 1908 and 2008, will most of those things are probably largely unchanged in Luruar.
There is a difference, New York didn't had to survive the Spellplague.
There is a difference, New York didn't had to survive the Spellplague.
-Actually...
It took us century's and longer to get to the information age...
The Silver Marches really havn't changed too much, except that it seems to have regressed and is now more of a dangerous frontier region than before, which is good I suppose.
I don't like what they did with the Harpers. I agree that the Harpers needed change, but I would have put them as a more clandestine, pragmatic organization fighting for more utilitarian purposes (kinda like Khelben's Moonstars) rather than reducing them to a pack of disorganized guerillas dedicated to opposing the Shades.
I don't like what they did with the Harpers. I agree that the Harpers needed change, but I would have put them as a more clandestine, pragmatic organization fighting for more utilitarian purposes (kinda like Khelben's Moonstars) rather than reducing them to a pack of disorganized guerillas dedicated to opposing the Shades.
-Agreed. The main dislike I have concerning the new Harpers is that they only oppose Shade, whereas the old Harpers (and the Moonstars) opposed injustice and evil where ever it was, and in whatever form it took.
-Concerning Alustriel: The fact that she "passed away" entails (I feel) she died of natural (ie, aging) causes, which indeed doesn't bode well for the rest of the Chosen of Mystra. An immunity from aging is one of the benefits that comes with the template, so this makes it seem as if the template disappears when Mystra does.
-Agreed. The main dislike I have concerning the new Harpers is that they only oppose Shade, whereas the old Harpers (and the Moonstars) opposed injustice and evil where ever it was, and in whatever form it took.
This is 4e - its all garbage, and you can choose to ignore wharever you want.
-Concerning Alustriel: The fact that she "passed away" entails (I feel) she died of natural (ie, aging) causes, which indeed doesn't bode well for the rest of the Chosen of Mystra. An immunity from aging is one of the benefits that comes with the template, so this makes it seem as if the template disappears when Mystra does.
This is 4e - she's only dead if you want her be.
None of the material WotC produces counts anymore - anyone can do better, so its really not worth paying attention to.
Just ignore any of the official published stuff, and avoid the 4e novels, and you should do just fine.
I know I will. ;)
Btw, the second name of one of my PCs (Valencia) is Alustriel. In my campaign's history, the name became popular for some time with baby girls after her death to honor her.
That's a nice idea, I must say.
I don't like what they did with the Harpers. I agree that the Harpers needed change, but I would have put them as a more clandestine, pragmatic organization fighting for more utilitarian purposes (kinda like Khelben's Moonstars) rather than reducing them to a pack of disorganized guerillas dedicated to opposing the Shades.
Yeah, turning them into a pack of gorillas would have been much cooler!
The sisters created Aber-teril? I thought Ao did. That was the whole premise behind the disaster that was Time of Troubles. I know that he isn't supposed to have any worshipers, but to eliminate him completely from common knowledge is kind of harsh. We will see when we get our dirty little paws on the new setting book.
I never used the Harpers and always thought their organization was a little odd, as far as entry requirements, so no big loss for me.
I never used the Silver Marches much. I did use the Great Forest for groups out of Waterdeep.
I'm more interested to see the changes for Waterdeep and the Dales.
They have rebooted for almost every edition, except third, and they were going to do a reboot, but the fans revolted.
And finally did Lord Karsus say that someone from Silverymoon had Shades up their asses? That could be painful. You would think that they would go to see the local priest rather than hiring our favorite Drow rogue. :D
Space
Anyhow, I just like saying LUruarererererer... :D
I want to see them talk about it at the convention without sounding like idiots.
**********************************
Sigh, how can we retcon this entire shambles of an article and make it worth something? There are two distasteful points that make me shudder.
Dwarves leaving the Luruar Alliance:
Are dwarves in 4E completely different to every other edition?
Have they gone from being stubborn yet loyal folk who never give up despite the odds against them surviving. The 'Stout Folk' who never abandon family, clan, allies and friends no matter what the cost to themselves. A race who's word means something, who believe in tradition, hearth and home. A race who remember every insult and every kind act shown, who dutifully and loyally stand by those who aid them no matter what the cost to themselves?
Well according to the article they obviously have changed.
"The dwarves of Adbar, Mithral Hall, and Felbarr parted ways with the others, unwilling to compromise their own defences by shoring up the smaller settlements in the area"
Well that’s just grand, Silverymoon et al ensure that Mithral Hall is retaken and protected allowing it to grow to prosperity and then 100 years or so later, Mithral Hall turns its back on the communities that helped it because they are small....... I guess 63,000 people in Silverymoon and Everlund (with no figure for Sundabar, but shall we add another 20K?) are 'small numbers' compared to the 'millions' of dwarves that must now 'obviously' live in the three great Dwarfholds of the North....... (I am just wondering where these missing Dwarves were in the last few centuries? apart from obviously staying in their caves and breeding).
The Disbandment of the Harpers:
I don't think I can find words to coherently describe how thoroughly let down I feel by this. Shall we discuss what being a Harper means and what the organisation is about? (Have the 4E FR design team read the Code of the Harpers, or the other books related to Harpers?).
Harpers work to protect people, communities and small kingdoms from harm, giving them a chance to flourish and better themselves therefore allowing folks to live out (as much as possible) a peaceful and fulfilling life without being constantly harassed by evil. Harpers do this not for glory or riches, recognition or rewards, but because they are decent folk who believe wholeheartedly in the cause and are determined to freely give of their own time, money and health so that others can live better lives. Harpers never ever stop being Harpers, unless they feel that they cannot give to the cause totally. They don't give up despite setbacks and personal tragedy (a bit like stubborn dwarves!), they are selfless, caring, thoughtful and determined to 'do the right thing'.
So at a time when Faerûn faced its greatest crisis, both in living memory and accepted knowledge and lore of past history, what did they do? they disbanded..... Hmmmm decent folks who willingly give themselves to the cause to protect all from evil and destructive chaos and tumult etc etc etc just decided to stop doing what they had been doing for centuries and disband...... hmmmmmm. And more to the point they stopped so early on into the Spellplague, (to quote the article "The Faerûn-spanning organization known as the Harpers disbanded nearly a century ago").
So the decision to give up was taken soon into the 'missing years of lost lore', except of course for those who decided (later) to oppose only one group, the Shadovar of Netheril. Harpers never just oppose one group, they oppose all who threaten peace and prosperity in Faerûn. These new lot aren't Harpers, but an organisation with only one Foe and that is NOT the Harper way. These new Harpers are nothing more than an adventuring band or fellowship that are dedicated to a single narrow cause with no thought for the wider issues of Faerûn, they appear more like the Knights of the North to me (to use an obvious example).
This is an extremely poor article regarding continuity of previous FR Lore and motivations of races and groups IMO.
Just my thoughts
Damian
Harpers disbanded, Alustriel dead.
WotC aren't playing around, and for that I thank them.
OK, the Harpers are disbanded.....so what?
If you're a Harper and your organisation falls apart, does that mean you automatically loose your values?
Do you loose your friends?
Do you let go of the traditions?
Do you leave your strongholds open and empty?
Do you disgard the unique magic and knowledge that you are a keeper of?
Erm....no.
I wouldn't be surprised to see more independent, quasi-Harper organizations throughout the Realms that are region-specific and that focus on localized threats.
There, that wasn't so hard.
OK, the Harpers are disbanded.....so what?
If you're a Harper and your organisation falls apart, does that mean you automatically loose your values?
Do you loose your friends?
Do you let go of the traditions?
Do you leave your strongholds open and empty?
Do you disgard the unique magic and knowledge that you are a keeper of?
Erm....no.
I wouldn't be surprised to see more independent, quasi-Harper organizations throughout the Realms that are region-specific and that focus on localized threats.
There, that wasn't so hard.
Word
I
They have rebooted for almost every edition, except third, and they were going to do a reboot, but the fans revolted.
Well, the setting has never actually had a true "reboot", not even for this edition.
I could have sworn I already said that. :P
There's NO such thing as CANON anymore!
This is 4e - its all garbage, and you can choose to ignore wharever you want.
This is 4e - she's only dead if you want her be.
None of the material WotC produces counts anymore - anyone can do better, so its really not worth paying attention to.
Just ignore any of the official published stuff, and avoid the 4e novels, and you should do just fine.
I know I will. ;)
-Yes, yes, yes. But, we talk about canon here, unless specifically noted otherwise, so that we are all on the same page.
Yeah, turning them into a pack of gorillas would have been much cooler!
-Not in the literal sense, of course. ;)
The sisters created Aber-teril? I thought Ao did. That was the whole premise behind the disaster that was Time of Troubles. I know that he isn't supposed to have any worshipers, but to eliminate him completely from common knowledge is kind of harsh. We will see when we get our dirty little paws on the new setting book.
-The text in the Church of Shar article clearly says that Shar and Selûne created the universe that Abeir-Toril exists in.
And finally did Lord Karsus say that someone from Silverymoon had Shades up their asses?
-Did I?
-The text in the Church of Shar article clearly says that Shar and Selûne created the universe that Abeir-Toril exists in.
Lords of Darkness says it too, I think.
It's a matter of perspective. Selune and Shar created light and darkness, and life and magic and everything that came from it (iirc it started with Selune creating the sun to heat up Chauntea? See, I know stuff!).
I guess AO doens't like the attention, so, I guess he allows a little white lie to make things easier for the common folk.
I could defiantely be wrong about that, though.
-Yes, yes, yes. But, we talk about canon here, unless specifically noted otherwise, so that we are all on the same page.
Not all of us do, regardless of specific notation.
Which is to say even if we're all talking about, say, an FR Excerpt, opinions on that excerpt about its usefulness to DMs (which includes all manner of speculation) and the value of the changes (good, bad, indifferent) will vary.
It doesn't address the question though, of who came first - Ao or Shar/Selûne. I suspect that's intentional, as the designers have indicated they're basically just going to leave out any mentions of him from here on.
Yeah, turning them into a pack of gorillas would have been much cooler!
And besides, they've already reached New Tilverton -
Thank you for stretching the page and making it an unreadable mess.
Hey, find me a better picture of jumping gorillas acting funny woun't ya;)
I also found pics of Ninja Gorillas and Pirate Gorillas, which are probably far worse then a bunch of crazy drunken barbarian Gorillas. :D
And besides, they've already reached New Tilverton -
-I honestly don't get it.