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In today’s Forgotten Realms preview, we present a new challenge from Chapter 7 (Threats) of the forthcoming Campaign Guide.
The Warlock Knights are the nobility of Vaasa’s brutal feudal system. Their twisted knightly order is based on an otherworldly being known as Telos that fell to earth during the Spellplague. They wield a variety of powers that deal radiant damage, drawing on the essence of Telos.
The Warlock Knights are the nobility of Vaasa’s brutal feudal system. Their twisted knightly order is based on an otherworldly being known as Telos that fell to earth during the Spellplague. They wield a variety of powers that deal radiant damage, drawing on the essence of Telos.
The Good
Voice of Telos: Sounds interesting.
Warlock Knights: A concept I like, in this setting, or anywhere else.
The Bad
Telos: Sounds exactly like something I made up in my own game (an otherworldly creature falling from the heavens, which "powered" those who harnessed it's power and payed it tribute), so, obviously, I cannot like this just on principle.
More 'Points of Light': Is it me, or does everything seemingly seem to be going to hell in a hand basket, or however that saying goes? Evil this, dark overlord that...
Ironfell: Just don't like it. Even if it was anywhere else. Don't like the concept.
The Seeming Lack of "Built-Upon" Lore: No real mentions of the Vaasa of old, and things in the recent past (present) that shaped Vaasa.
The Ugly
That Image
-I thought 'The Warlock Knights of Vaasa' were Kewl in Rich's Novel 'Swordmage'. :D
-So they are 'Star-Pact Warlocks'. :evillaugh
18DELTA
Also reinforces the idea of NPCs as monster builds and not as character builds.
-Could have saved so much room, if the stat-blocks were akin to:
Warlock Knight ("Weak Version"): Warlock 2 / Warlord 1
Warlock Knight ("Tough Version"): Warlock 3 / Warlord 2
Warlock Knight ("Commander"): Warlock 5 / Warlord 5
-And so on. More room for more stuff.
-Could have saved so much room, if the stat-blocks were akin to:
Warlock Knight ("Weak Version"): Warlock 2 / Warlord 1
Warlock Knight ("Tough Version"): Warlock 3 / Warlord 2
Warlock Knight ("Commander"): Warlock 5 / Warlord 5
-And so on. More room for more stuff.
And I know that you aren't a big fan of 4e, so I will let you in on a little secret (there are no multiclass level (i.e. Warlock 3 / Warlord 2) it would just be Warlock X with multiclass feats for Warlord abilities.
And I know that you aren't a big fan of 4e, so I will let you in on a little secret (there are no multiclass level (i.e. Warlock 3 / Warlord 2) it would just be Warlock X with multiclass feats for Warlord abilities.
-Whatever. That, then. Warlock X, with Y special feats/abilities.
And I know that you aren't a big fan of 4e, so I will let you in on a little secret (there are no multiclass level (i.e. Warlock 3 / Warlord 2) it would just be Warlock X with multiclass feats for Warlord abilities.
No he is not against 4E. Rino said so in another post.;)
I liked the stat blocks and have printed them out for a game I am about to run (for another setting). I may not use them right away but I have them "on file" just in case.
No he is not against 4E. Rino said so in another post.;)
I didn't say "against", I said "not a fan of", I know LK has issues with 4e, so I was unsure if he was making a deliberate mistake or one of ignorance (in a "I don't really give a damn" way).
I didn't say "against", I said "not a fan of", I know LK has issues with 4e, so I was unsure if he was making a deliberate mistake or one of ignorance (in a "I don't really give a damn" way).
Probably ignorance. Ask him, he never makes mistakes. :P
Sorry, just feeling cheeky.
-Thank you for the preview.
The Bad
Telos: Sounds exactly like something I made up in my own game (an otherworldly creature falling from the heavens, which "powered" those who harnessed it's power and payed it tribute), so, obviously, I cannot like this just on principle.
That doesn't make it bad but a "dislike" for you.
More 'Points of Light': Is it me, or does everything seemingly seem to be going to hell in a hand basket, or however that saying goes? Evil this, dark overlord that...
The PoL idea is more prominent in Vassa than say Baldur's Gate but Vassa always had that sort of feel anyways. Besides, another country ruled by evil other than Thay is 1-up in my book.
Ironfell: Just don't like it. Even if it was anywhere else. Don't like the concept.
Remindes me of the Green Star stuff featured in Complete Arcana. Anyways, it's not often we find material from space used for magical purposes in FR and what would happen if they were cut off from the source or the source would stop producing it? Very good ideas for campaigns there.......
The Seeming Lack of "Built-Upon" Lore: No real mentions of the Vaasa of old, and things in the recent past (present) that shaped Vaasa.
Which we wouldn't get in a small 2 page preview anyways. I'm holding out more hope for the full story in the FRCG.
That doesn't make it bad but a "dislike" for you.
-A dislike, which would, in turn, cause me to categorize it as 'bad' in my subjective list. Doi.
The PoL idea is more prominent in Vassa than say Baldur's Gate but Vassa always had that sort of feel anyways. Besides, another country ruled by evil other than Thay is 1-up in my book.
-As Colman mentioned above, many of the previews seem to be taking place in "out of the way" locales, in which the Points of Light mantra are manifesting themselves.
Which we wouldn't get in a small 2 page preview anyways. I'm holding out more hope for the full story in the FRCG.
-If you haven't noticed, these excerpts are word-for-word scans from the FRCG and the player book. This one, for example, is in Chapter Seven, from pages 276-277. Nothing in this overview of the Warlock Knights involves the Witch-King's legacy, Vaasa's storied history, and so on.
-If you haven't noticed, these excerpts are word-for-word scans from the FRCG and the player book. This one, for example, is in Chapter Seven, from pages 276-277. Nothing in this overview of the Warlock Knights involves the Witch-King's legacy, Vaasa's storied history, and so on.
We already have that information by way of older books. Why would they want to use precious space on reprinting old stuff? If you really want to learn about an areas history and go in depth, you can still buy older books, such as GHotR.
We already have that information by way of older books. Why would they want to use precious space on reprinting old stuff? If you really want to learn about an areas history and go in depth, you can still buy older books, such as GHotR.
-You misunderstand. I said, specifically: The Seeming Lack of "Built-Upon" Lore. As in...Made-up example here...There are those bloodstones in the northern lands, there. Hence it's name. The Warlock Knights fit their armor with bloodstones, representative of every individual they've killed. Those who have higher ranks have been known to fashion these stones in their own skin, running out of room. The Voice of Telos, has transformed himself into a 'Bloodstone Golem'.
-You misunderstand. I said, specifically: The Seeming Lack of "Built-Upon" Lore. As in...Made-up example here...There are those bloodstones in the northern lands, there. Hence it's name. The Warlock Knights fit their armor with bloodstones, representative of every individual they've killed. Those who have higher ranks have been known to fashion these stones in their own skin, running out of room. The Voice of Telos, has transformed himself into a 'Bloodstone Golem'.
Exactly for the reason you just gave... A chance for the DM to fill in the blanks with their own ideas. Nice idea by the way.
Exactly for the reason you just gave... A chance for the DM to fill in the blanks with their own ideas.
-Yes. It would be nice for the campaign setting guide to you know...Do it's job, and describe the campaign setting and all...
-A dislike, which would, in turn, cause me to categorize it as 'bad' in my subjective list. Doi.
Aye, though it's not bad because of quality but because it's too much like what you had in your home brew (which I can understand completly).
-As Colman mentioned above, many of the previews seem to be taking place in "out of the way" locales, in which the Points of Light mantra are manifesting themselves.
Of course, they need some meat for the release of the FRCG. I thought it strange they released stuff on Cormyr and I doubt we'll see anything on Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Cormanthyr, Thay, or any other "big name" areas before it's launch.
-If you haven't noticed, these excerpts are word-for-word scans from the FRCG and the player book. This one, for example, is in Chapter Seven, from pages 276-277. Nothing in this overview of the Warlock Knights involves the Witch-King's legacy, Vaasa's storied history, and so on.
True, but we don't know what's on page 278, 279, 280, etc. It's an excerpt and there could be more info they're not showing.
*Yes, I know it is, but it doesn't look like it. IMHO. More like placing the Teutonic Knights next to the semi-Russian Damara. Then again, who knows how Damara will look like.
Of course, they need some meat for the release of the FRCG. I thought it strange they released stuff on Cormyr and I doubt we'll see anything on Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate, Cormanthyr, Thay, or any other "big name" areas before it's launch.
They didn't post an excerpt on Cormyr, but a DDi article. Different thing. I suspect they decided everyone would freak out if they posted a two page excerpt of the Cormyr coverage in the book.
The excerpts we've seen from chapter 7 don't really cover geography or history at all, just some information about the organisation in question. There is very likely more geographical information about Vaasa in chapter 6.
That might be why they're doing out-of-the-way regions and minor enough organisations: 2 page excerpts cover them.
The Warlock Knights is fun because of the concept and also that Vaasa is in the spotlight more.
How come all the previews are of out-of-the-way places?
I think there going for the exotic approach. Because as I've been told about many things (ie, fruits, dancers, etc..) are much, much better when they are exotic.
True, but we don't know what's on page 278, 279, 280, etc. It's an excerpt and there could be more info they're not showing.
From the excerpts, it seems (but I can be wrong) that locales/sites/countries are decribed in chapter 6, and organizations in chapter 7. So the background of Vaasa itself is likely described in chapter 6.
Btw I don't like the ironfell much, but that's because it is presented so casually. They chop of chunks of a primordial and make stuff out of it. As presented it just doesn't sound creepy, and it should be...
Warlock Knight Vindicator Level 15 Elite Soldier (Leader)
Medium natural humanoid, human XP 2,400
Initiative +9 Senses Perception +7
Beacon of Telos aura 5; allies within the aura gain resist 10
against fi re, psychic, and radiant damage.
HP 286; Bloodied 143
AC 32; Fortitude 30, Refl ex 27, Will 28
Resist radiant 5
Saving Throws +2
Speed 5; see also iron sky pursuit
Action Point 1
mIronfell Glaive (standard; at-will) ✦ Radiant, Weapon
Reach 2; +21 vs. AC; 2d4 + 7 damage plus 1d10 radiant
damage, and the target is marked until the end of the vindicator’s
next turn.
Iron Sky Pursuit (immediate reaction, when an enemy marked by
the vindicator within 5 squares of the vindicator moves away;
at-will)
The vindicator shifts up to 4 squares toward the marked
enemy.
M Glaive Arcs (standard; at-will) ✦ Radiant, Weapon
The vindicator makes two ironfell glaive attacks.
C Meteor Impact (standard; recharge ⚅) ✦ Radiant, Weapon
Close burst 2; +21 vs. AC; 2d4 + 7 damage plus 1d10 radiant
damage, and the target slides 1 square.
R Iron Sky Starfall (standard; encounter) ✦ Radiant
Ranged 10; +19 vs. Will; 1d6 + 5 radiant damage, and the
target is dazed until the end of the vindicator’s next turn.
Dark One’s Own Luck (free, when the vindicator makes an attack
roll, saving throw, ability check, or skill check; daily)
The vindicator rerolls and uses the better of the two results.
Alignment Evil Languages Common, DamaranPG
Skills Arcana +16, Athletics +17, Diplomacy +17, Intimidate +17
Str 24 (+14) Dex 10 (+7) Wis 11 (+7)
Con 15 (+9) Int 18 (+11) Cha 20 (+12)
Equipment ironfell plate armor, ironfell glaive, iron ring
Vindicator Tactics
Often the leader of a squad of Warlock Knights and
other troops, a vindicator uses the advantage of reach
to lead from just behind the front battle line. Whirling
her ironfell glaive, she focuses on a marked target
until it falls. She turns eldritch blast and iron sky starfall
on opponents who keep their distance.
No eltdritch blast, I know this is not world shaking but it still sucks. And since the Luminary actualy has the blast, I am not shure if the Vindicator is supposed to have it it not. The executioner is if I am correct a rogue with warlock template, the vindicator seems to be a warlock with a leader template and the luminary seems to be a beefed up warlock.
The weird thing is, that this is still my favourite except so far, curse you Rich Bakerad your awesome novel skills :D
My 'main' is a Warlock, and I used Soul Shards all the time.
This is so bad, I feel the need to contact Blizzard's legal team.
And to think, I was really looking forward to reading about this group.
(Non sequitiur, but I'm also curious to see how something like Elven High Magic would fit in to new newly nerfed wizard mechanics of 4E.)
I find it difficult to evaluate this absent the rest of the coverage of Vaasa (assuming there's more than just these statblocks) in the FRCG. I'm very worried that the 4E FR Books are going to have far too little lore, and if all we get, for instance, is two and a half pages on Vaasa, two of which include this excerpt, then I'll be pretty dissappointed. If there's significant lore, then i guess i'd be less dissapointed, but I don't find this stuff exciting or interesting. Vaasa is probably the single most "points of light"y place in Faerun. It should be Epic.
(Non sequitiur, but I'm also curious to see how something like Elven High Magic would fit in to new newly nerfed wizard mechanics of 4E.)
The CG is not the last word on the Realms, new articles and books will be released filling in the gaps, since so many people seem disinclined to simply do that part themselves.
From what I am reading about the previews the CG would have to be several thousand pages long to ensure that every area got it's due. Think of taking the last 20 years of source books and novels and trying to put them between the covers of one book. Patience people! The CG is bare bones, just as the Gray Box was (Vaasa had less than 1/2 a page). Give all the creative types time to settle down after the shakeup and get to work on the meat to cover those bones.
As for High Elven magic... One word: Rituals. If they do it right rituals will be expanded and groups will be able to participate in larger ones, and the elves will have some of their own special ones. Though if Corellon is now god of magic, humans may gain access to some of the high elven rituals.
I find it difficult to evaluate this absent the rest of the coverage of Vaasa (assuming there's more than just these statblocks) in the FRCG. I'm very worried that the 4E FR Books are going to have far too little lore, and if all we get, for instance, is two and a half pages on Vaasa, two of which include this excerpt, then I'll be pretty dissappointed.
According to BRJ, each region in the FRCG will get TWO pages... which means what you see is what we get.
The CG is not the last word on the Realms, new articles and books will be released filling in the gaps, since so many people seem disinclined to simply do that part themselves.
Books as in novels? So we are forced to buy those to learn the details now?
Talk about putting a gun to our heads....
There will be NO more sourcebooks, if that is what you meant, and as far as DDi articles... you still believe in Santa Clause, don't you? :D
Mark my words - what you are reading is going to be all there is on FR... EVER.
According to BRJ, each region in the FRCG will get TWO pages... which means what you see is what we get.
Books as in novels? So we are forced to buy those to learn the details now?
Talk about putting a gun to our heads....
There will be NO more sourcebooks, if that is what you meant, and as far as DDi articles... you still believe in Santa Clause, don't you? :D
Mark my words - what you are reading is going to be all there is on FR... EVER.
So much drama, so little time.
They never ‘forced’ anyone into buying the novels in the past, as most people know the FR novels are there to give us additional flavor, lore, and are purely optional. And mark my words, if it sells well then they will add another supplemental FR sourcebook to the 2008-2009 schedule.
Absitively, posolutely correct. :D
Before, we could get our FR 'fix' from the never-ending multitude of sourcebooks available.
They've figured out how to funnel our money directly into their pockets, without all of it going to Hasbro. Kudos for the designers cleverness.
Nothing like 'double-dipping' to pad your salaries, even if it does hurt the fans and the IP.
Thats it.
You can speculate all you want, but by this time next year they will be pushing the Eberron setting, so I can pretty much gaurantee that at least 90% of their resources are being funneled into that. ;)
What part of "One setting per year" didn't you understand?
Though if Corellon is now god of magic, humans may gain access to some of the high elven rituals.
Now wait ... this can't be for the Realms! Especially if they send Ao 'on tour' as well. I mean, he'd just strip the drow of magic and have his revenge on his former wife.
BTW ... I was just thinking of Sschindylryn, the drow city of portals. If the Spellplague happened upon that place, there will a lot of "fun" down there too ...*
*And oh-so much opportunities to link worlds, open gates to worlds filled with fiends and abberations for the PCs to chase (or vice versa).
Now wait ... this can't be for the Realms!
-No, no it's not. Corellon Larethian is "the" deity of magic in the 4e PHB, and he's a deity of magic in the Forgotten Realms, but he isn't going to be "the" deity of magic.
-No, no it's not. Corellon Larethian is "the" deity of magic in the 4e PHB, and he's a deity of magic in the Forgotten Realms, but he isn't going to be "the" deity of magic.
Oh sure, wait til I get the shrine up to tell me...
Oh sure, wait til I get the shrine up to tell me...
-He accepts homage from everyone. He just likes Elves better. That shrine, it's all good.
-Mind you, I like Corellon Larethian. He's probably my favorite deity. I don't want to ever see him in the "spotlight" like that. Is it just me?
Also reinforces the idea of NPCs as monster builds and not as character builds.
They could be character builds if the DM wants them to be.
As far as Vaasa is concerned, I like the concepts. I think I could do a whole lot with the concepts, which I'm happy about because I was looking forward to this. However, I think they could have done a lot better job portraying those concepts. I even feel like the positive traits of some of the concepts are getting lost do to the way they are being revealed.
What kills me is that any additional information is going to be posted on/in DDI which goes for what... $14.99 a month? I may like 4e and love the lore of FR but not for roughly 180 bucks a year.
You get a discount for subscribing for a year. The longer the subscription, the less you have to pay.
You get a discount for subscribing for a year. The longer the subscription, the less you have to pay.
-Which in my opinion is why they aren't pushing physical products within reason of course. We still get the usual splats.
-Could you imagine the outcry that would take place if they produced 2 Realms products a quarter(8 products a year at $30 a pop) and people paid $10 a month for DDI? ;)
-Instead they could put out a Realms article on DDI every say 2 months. So you buy their splats, and pay for DDI. Instead of DDI, Splats, and Realms or Eberron products. ;)
-I have been known to be wrong every now and then, so take it with a grain of salt. :D
18DELTA :P
There will be NO more sourcebooks, if that is what you meant,
Ah, but you never know!
After all, WotC did cancel several novels and Gleemax. Seems to me a course correction (read: reorganization) is in the works.
Never know what might see print.
;)
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Hold on to your hats.
I agree with Karsus. Give me more about the previous lore and how it links to the great big problem that fell out of the sky and landed on Vaasa's head.
And whither Damara in all this? Does it stand against the depredations of Vaasa and its Warlock Knights or has it perhaps already fallen to them?
After all, WotC did cancel several novels
Including at least one of the new Ravenloft novels, and possibly the whole line.
And whither Damara in all this? Does it stand against the depredations of Vaasa and its Warlock Knights or has it perhaps already fallen to them?
Yeah, I was hoping to read something about that too.
imagine servants of Orcus running freedom underground movement
-After all they didn't use the logical hooks for Dragonborn.
-Armies of soldiers made from the Living Metal chaffing under the yoke of cruel tyrants sounds kinda cool and awesome.
-Gotta use the 4E Keywords. :P
18DELTA :D
And whither Damara in all this? Does it stand against the depredations of Vaasa and its Warlock Knights or has it perhaps already fallen to them?
Given that the head-honcho is only given a title and no-name, and is said to be "the oldest guy around", I'm betting thats Gareth.
Just a hunch, but considering how much WoW fluff I'm spotting in these excerpts (Shardsouls?!), I bet dollars to donuts that Gareth has become FR's Arthaus.
And if I'm right, and the Eminence of Araunt are FR's Forsaken, then these two groups might just oppose each other (as they do in Warcraft). Free-willed Undead do not like necromancers who 'contol' undead. ;)
Not that I mind any of that - I love Warcraft Fluff - even if it is leaking all over the Realms. I just wish they would try and hide it a little better - trans-posing two words does NOT make one creative.
Hey LK - at least they named their god after that planet in Star Wars - you must like that. :D
-Meh. Star Wars has lost it's appeal to me.
Give me more about the previous lore and how it links to the great big problem that fell out of the sky and landed on Vaasa's head.
-Yes. This is the kind of stuff I would have expected.
-Yes. This is the kind of stuff I would have expected.
I wouldn't. I think this fits in perfectly with the stated aim of "DM Freedom". By not describing the links to the past the DM is entirely free to make those links reflect anything they wish in their own campaign.
I wouldn't. I think this fits in perfectly with the stated aim of "DM Freedom". By not describing the links to the past the DM is entirely free to make those links reflect anything they wish in their own campaign.
-Mind you, the stuff I am/was expecting is not necessarily what they are or what they want to do.
Given that the head-honcho is only given a title and no-name, and is said to be "the oldest guy around", I'm betting thats Gareth.
-As I said in another thread, Road of the Patriarch seemingly was trying it's hardest to make the Paladin King look like an ass, so perhaps there were forces at work that, at the time, we were oblivious of...
-Mind you, the stuff I am/was expecting is not necessarily what they are or what they want to do.
Oh, I was just attempting to outline a possible logic for the lack of this information without alluding to whether I agree with it or not in any way.
...which I am still not doing. I hope. :D
-As I said in another thread, Road of the Patriarch seemingly was trying it's hardest to make the Paladin King look like an ass, so perhaps there were forces at work that, at the time, we were oblivious of...
Yes, and he was beginning to doubt his own perceptions of 'right' and 'wrong', just like Arthaus in WoW. :D
In fact, Arthaus 'fell' because he was trying to save the world, and when he realized the futility of that, he decided it would be just as well to RULE it, with an iron hand...
Sounds like a VERY 'lawful' bent taken to an un-wholsome extreme.
And it sounds VERY MUCH like something that could have happened to Gareth, if all the death and destruction of the Spellplague drove him over the edge.
It would all start with Marshal Law, and then the killing of looters, etc, etc... a slippery slope, indeed. ;)
Oh, I was just attempting to outline a possible logic for the lack of this information without alluding to whether I agree with it or not in any way.
...which I am still not doing. I hope. :D
-Something is peeking out, there.
Yes, and he was beginning to doubt his own perceptions of 'right' and 'wrong', just like Arthaus in WoW. :D
In fact, Arthaus 'fell' because he was trying to save the world, and when he realized the futility of that, he decided it would be just as well to RULE it, with an iron hand...
-Interesting.
Sounds like a VERY 'lawful' bent taken to an un-wholsome extreme.
And it sounds VERY MUCH like something that could have happened to Gareth, if all the death and destruction of the Spellplague drove him over the edge.
It would all start with Marshal Law, and then the killing of looters, etc, etc... a slippery slope, indeed. ;)
-It's not cliche, but that's a fairly common kind development. Someone thinks they are doing everyone good, but taking over the world. "With me in charge, they'll be better off. I'm doing this for them".
-Something is peeking out, there.
I am trying my best.
...not least because of how favourably my views on an excerpt were received last time. So I am now going to keep quiet about the excerpts themselves and offer comments based on construction, not content
.All of them are the basis for a good idea, but it's like they never bother to try an fit it into FR at all - which may very well be what they want, after all - plothooks usable by anyone, in any campaign.
Now, if they do what they did with that Shadowfell conversion, and everything they come out with generically they flesh-out (setting-wise) in more detail in the DDi, then I could even see myself buying into the DDi concept. I want to see all of these excerpts fully formed, and then I can give an honest opinion - right now it's like someone tells me they have an idea for a new type of car, and when I ask them about it, they say "I don't know, I haven't worked out all the details yet, but it will have four wheels, and a motor... oh! And seats!... yeah seats... and maybe cupholders..."
You see what I'm getting at? It's kind of hard to get excited over 'bare bones' .
Unless you're a necrophiliac.... :P
I want to see all of these excerpts fully formed, and then I can give an honest opinion - right now it's like someone tells me they have an idea for a new type of car, and when I ask them about it, they say "I don't know, I haven't worked out all the details yet, but it will have four wheels, and a motor... oh! And seats!... yeah seats... and maybe cupholders..."
-Definitely cup holders.
You see what I'm getting at? It's kind of hard to get excited over 'bare bones' .
-Which is very counter-productive, when, asides for sating curiosity, one of the goals of pre-releasing excerpts is to garner excitement in the product. This is the part that seems to be missing time and time again.
-Or...maybe this is how one could place The Warforged in the Realms!
-After all they didn't use the logical hooks for Dragonborn.
-Armies of soldiers made from the Living Metal chaffing under the yoke of cruel tyrants sounds kinda cool and awesome.
-Gotta use the 4E Keywords. :P
18DELTA :D
Was there an actual point to this post? Because of the tone I'm having trouble reading it.
I wouldn't. I think this fits in perfectly with the stated aim of "DM Freedom". By not describing the links to the past the DM is entirely free to make those links reflect anything they wish in their own campaign.
Exactly, this is what I like about Eberron. They provide a few possible answers, but don't say which, if any of them, is canon. Allowing the DM that bit more freedom.
You see what I'm getting at? It's kind of hard to get excited over 'bare bones' .
I disagree. I use my imagination to fill in the blanks and start working things into the FR world.
It's a bit more interesting this time, with the dark feudalism allied to eldritch forces, the iron and the stars, or whatever. I like it, even if it is a rather traditional fantasy concept. Nice enough in its own right, though I still don't see why this has to take place over the existing Vaasa.
But insert my usual complaints about how there's no much going on, nor plot-hooks to start from. It's like these guys stand around waiting for the PCs to come.
I'm surprised no-one's complained about the Lovecraftian influences yet. Star Pact Warlocks, a entity fallen from the stars... The addition of iron themes makes an original twist, over the rather more cliched slime and tentacles.
Actually, 4e has been surprisingly original on the Star Pact in general; the powers all have astrological, fate and fortune-telling themes, not just the Lovecraftian, so there's more options to work with.I can't get over the name Telos though. That's the name of one of the Cyberman planets in Doctor Who. With the heavy metal and spacefaring, I keep thinking of the Warlock Knights as Cybermen. Anyway, the name and concept just sounds a little too SF and out of place.
Names in general I'm finding to be rather bland in these excerpts. Consider: Warlock Knights, ironfell, shardsouls, Elfharrow (ignoring the Elf names here, as it seems to be intentional), Dead Vale, Wyrmbones, Direhelm, Doomsept (the rest of Araunt is okay), Lady Moonfire, Spellplague. It's the habit of stringing together two random, vaguely mythic sounding words and calling it a new one without a lot of effort put into making up a new name. It's something of lazy cliche in fantasy fiction. Obviously I'm picking and choosing here, but the majority of new names seems to be this way.
I can't get over the name Telos though. That's the name of one of the Cyberman planets in Doctor Who. With the heavy metal and spacefaring, I keep thinking of the Warlock Knights as Cybermen. Anyway, the name and concept just sounds a little too SF and out of place.
It also appears in Star Wars Kotor, so now I'm wondering if there really is such a system and planet?
Names in general I'm finding to be rather bland in these excerpts. Consider: Warlock Knights, ironfell, shardsouls, Elfharrow (ignoring the Elf names here, as it seems to be intentional), Dead Vale, Wyrmbones*, Direhelm, Doomsept (the rest of Araunt is okay), Lady Moonfire, Spellplague. It's the habit of stringing together two random, vaguely mythic sounding words and calling it a new one without a lot of effort put into making up a new name. It's something of lazy cliche in fantasy fiction. Obviously I'm picking and choosing here, but the majority of new names seems to be this way.
Haven't you heard? They're using manatees and idea balls!
Its all the rage these days. :D
But seriously - they are using a random name generator and some dice - there's no way in hell they are putting any thought at all into those names.
* The Wyrmbones have been there since 1e FR. ;)
I can't get over the name Telos though. That's the name of one of the Cyberman planets in Doctor Who. With the heavy metal and spacefaring, I keep thinking of the Warlock Knights as Cybermen. Anyway, the name and concept just sounds a little too SF and out of place.
Perhaps we should consider Toril the Realmsian equivalent of Mondas. :P
I can see it now: Warlock Knights forever encased in iron armour, armed with radiant blasting heavy crossbows, stomping around and kidnapping people who are then transformed into more Warlock Knights. "You will be like us" the leader buzzes.
Well, Mondas was the mirror image of Earth. Hmm. What if we consider Earth = Toril? Then Mondas is... Abeir! :D
Alternatively, we could consider the alternate Earth depicted in Rise of the Cybermen as Abeir, the Cybermen as the Warlock Knights and the Voice of Lumic could then become the Voice of Telos. :P
I can see it now: Warlock Knights forever encased in iron armour, armed with radiant blasting heavy crossbows, stomping around and kidnapping people who are then transformed into more Warlock Knights. "You will be like us" the leader buzzes.
Delete! Delete! Delete! :D
dont like talos
dont like the warlock
dont like ironfell
dont like that wizards killed talos( thats my interpretation)
not big on vaasa either.
It's the habit of stringing together two random, vaguely mythic sounding words and calling it a new one without a lot of effort put into making up a new name. It's something of lazy cliche in fantasy fiction. Obviously I'm picking and choosing here, but the majority of new names seems to be this way.
-As you said, that's something in all of fantasy. Whaddya gonna do?
It also appears in Star Wars Kotor, so now I'm wondering if there really is such a system and planet?
Haven't you heard? They're using manatees and idea balls!
Its all the rage these days. :D
-What was that? Southpark? I forget.
It was the 'Family Guy' episode, making it doubly delicious. :P
Yeah, Southpark - I just love that show. :D
It was the 'Family Guy' episode, making it doubly delicious. :P
-Right. The Southpark episode that featured Family Guy. That's why I was confused between the two.
-You know, concerning satire, are there any of those nerd comic things that depict a lot of the "doofus" moves that have been going on in the game lately?
-Now how can we make them 'fit' in Vaasa? ;)
-I still like my Warforged angle. :P
18DELTA
-Now how can we make them 'fit' in Vaasa? ;)
-Tie them better to the area, somehow. Telos, maybe, didn't come from the sky, but was some kind of extraplanar entity that Zhengy the Witch-King bound, and was using the power of? Sometime during the Spellplague, those wards disappeared, and Telos freed itself.
-The 'Bloodstone thing' I was talking about before.
-Having, as others have said, King Gareth as the leader of the group, the Voice of Telos.
Come visit the Realms DM Exercise: Name the 13 Vindicators of the Ironfell Council if you'd like to try your hand at filling in the gaps of the new Realmslore.
Aside from the Voice of Telos, five of the council have been named and described by members of our community.
These five are the zealot Ivor Chernin, the ambitious spymaster Lishkah Ehravic, the honey-tongued Eranthis Falcata, the ever efficient Tan Mu Rong and the corpulent Vasilii Ivanov Gubin.
The rest await your creativity to bring them to life!
:D
what I dont like:
dont like talos
dont like the warlock
dont like ironfell
dont like that wizards killed talos( thats my interpretation)
not big on vaasa either.
So that's what happened to the chap after the Spellplague huh, didn't know he was a primordial all along.
Interesting article, overall I find it interesting with more attempts to integrate the new 4e focus on the war between gods and primordials into the setting as well as flesh out an area that could use some decorations after Zhengyi was taken care of (wonder what happened to that Avatar of Tiamat under Castle Perilous though) but as LK has said about a number of excerpts, there aren't enough tie to existing lore in the region (like the cults of Orcus, Zhengyi, Bloodstone, etc), but I guess by now this is to be expected. I don't get how this reminds people of Warcraft however. Faerun seems to be getting a bit more perilous now that many of the existing powers are out of the way and more primal threats like the elementals and aberrations are setting up shop, and depending on how they take the lore it could turn out very nice or just end in utter disaster. But still, great article that places a very dangerous threat for adventurers traveling through Damara to deal with.
*That we know of. If Talos has been killed off in 4e FR, then you could always claim that his body fell out of the sky and landed on Vaasa, where these Warlock Knights made a business mining his corpse for iron. 100-odd years of linguistic shift will take care of the different name.
Alternatively, we could consider the alternate Earth depicted in Rise of the Cybermen as Abeir, the Cybermen as the Warlock Knights and the Voice of Lumic could then become the Voice of Telos. :P
Delete! Delete! Delete! :D
Aargh! New Series Cybusmen!
Actually, "Telos" is the new entity in Vaasa. "Talos" is the classic FR deity. There's no relation between the two*
*That we know of. If Talos has been killed off in 4e FR, then you could always claim that his body fell out of the sky and landed on Vaasa, where these Warlock Knights made a business mining his corpse for iron. 100-odd years of linguistic shift will take care of the different name.
I know, it was a bad attempt at a pun.;)
But the hook could work considering Talos's ties with the elements, or maybe some primordial killed him off and defiled his body.
Interesting article, overall I find it interesting with more attempts to integrate the new 4e focus on the war between gods and primordials into the setting...
-Yeah, wish they'd stop doing that...
But what if Ao died as a result of the Spellplague (reaching... I know, buuut...)? He would probably be the only 'Primordial' we had in canon (unless the Elemental Lords are being retconned as well). The first thing I thought of was that they were ignoring Ao in 4e, and now you got this dead primordial - who was NEVER previously mentioned - floating around in Realmspace? Either somehow this Telos guy escaped every Spelljammer's attention, or this is somethng new that occurred as part of the death of Mystra.
Many gods died, but none of them would have been considered primordials.
On the other hand, with that annoying 'Abeir' floating around in canon, this could just be some vestige from that plane/world that got shunted into Realmspace (along with the rest of the garbage).
Maybe Telos was Abeir's version of Ao? His 'evil twin' perhaps, or 'Mirror Ao'? Oa?
Well, of course, these lands now do not look as much as Mordor as the old Vaasa. But still, I am a bit reluctant to have special "racial" or "class-ial" realms in a setting. In fact, I was surprised that Eberron went along that route too, with dragons here, psions there, elves on the other side and giants/drow over there.
What? Fanatical devotion to a fallen god and a dozen Death Knights (Warlocks) doesn't sound like Sauron and the Nazgûl to you?
Come on... the Voice of Telos is the Witch-King of Angmar!
If anything, it has become MORE Tolkienesque. :P
In all honesty, comparisons can be drawn anywhere, if you really look for them. ;)
Talos is/was a god, and the article specifically states that Telos was a primordial, so unless they retcon Talos, the two can't be the same.
-It was a joke. Someone accidentally wrote 'Talos' instead of 'Telos', and he picked up on it.
Come on... the Voice of Telos is the Witch-King of Angmar!
-I was thinking the Voice of Telos was more like the Mouth of Sauron than the Witch-King.
-It was a joke. Someone accidentally wrote 'Talos' instead of 'Telos', and he picked up on it.
Ahh the chaos...my work here is done
I highly doubt Telos is "Abeir Ao" or even a fragment of him and it would take more than the Spellplague to kill the overdeity who created the crystal sphere in the first place. If either one of them died, I highly doubt Abeir or Toril would still exist.
More than anything, I suspect Telos is either some random primordial or elder evil they threw in with no lore hooks whatsoever just to get newbies excited (most likely) or he is an aspect or exarch of a more sinister being (Tharizdun anyone?) looking to gain some ground.
-As long as it didn't come from the Far Realms, I'm good. Too bad it's not Lavos...
Lavos?
Why not, I'm actually hoping for some Far Realms connections.
Lavos?
-Yeah, Lavos.
Why not, I'm actually hoping for some Far Realms connections.
-More? There's too much as it is! And- and this is the point that 'damns it'- most of it sounds out of place and force-fed.
-Yeah, Lavos.
-More? There's too much as it is! And- and this is the point that 'damns it'- most of it sounds out of place and force-fed.
I was asking who Lavos was.
The Far Realms have been underused. In my opinion, its about damn time...
:coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul :coolcthul 18DELTA :D
-
18DELTA :D
Yes, All Hail &*(^T^$%$%$#^##^#^%, lord of @$#@!#$%$%##$##^$#^
:88E:
I was asking who Lavos was.
-How do you know know what Lavos is? Geeze...
-
-Yeah, there's the Far Realm invading.
-How do you know know what Lavos is? Geeze...
.
Um, probably because I was only THREE when that game came out.
Whatever, I'll just ask my friend with a Super Nintendo if he has that game.
-How do you not know know what Lavos is? Geeze...
Missed a word there, Epic Fail.
The Far Realms have been underused. In my opinion, its about damn time...
No they weren't - the Call of Cthulhu game has been out for years. In fact, I think Bruce Cordell should go work for them....
-I was thinking the Voice of Telos was more like the Mouth of Sauron than the Witch-King.
Good Catch!
Thats what I was really thinking of, but I was in a rush.
There are instances of Primordials/Overgods dying and their plane surviving, but thats from Beyond Countless Doorways, which is unfortunately 3rd party (even though it was written by the entire Planescape team).
No they weren't - the Call of Cthulhu game has been out for years. In fact, I think Bruce Cordell should go work for them....
.
I'm talking about in WoTC products but I guess...
Eberron kinda had that elder evil aberration thing going on with the Daekyr and all the main villains being aberration in nature.
No they weren't - the Call of Cthulhu game has been out for years. In fact, I think Bruce Cordell should go work for them....
-So send him a PM!
18DELTA :heehee
Eberron kinda had that elder evil aberration thing going on with the Daekyr and all the main villains being aberration in nature.
Yes, and I LOVED that storyline there.
I wouldn't use it in FR, but it was part of Eberron's history and quite good.
A time and place for everything, as it were.
Missed a word there, Epic Fail.
-Yeah, you failed so much it made me sputter and stutter. :P
Good Catch!
Thats what I was really thinking of, but I was in a rush.
-That was the first thing I thought of when I saw the Voice of Telos. If the Voice of Telos looks halfway as cool as the Mouth of Sauron, in the movies, then that's a good start.
You know, I usually send people Paizo's way - I never tried using my powers for good before. :D
Yes, and I LOVED that stroyline there.
I wouldn't use it in FR, but it was part of Eberron's history and quite good.
A time and place for everything, as it were.
Yeah, I think its one of Eberron's better aspects, the villains are usually a lot more competant and threatening than those in the Realms.
As much as I love both D&D and pulp action, I still don't think they go well together.
-Yeah, you failed so much it made me sputter and stutter. :P
A sign that you totally FAILED
What? Fanatical devotion to a fallen god and a dozen Death Knights (Warlocks) doesn't sound like Sauron and the Nazgûl to you?
Come on... the Voice of Telos is the Witch-King of Angmar!
If anything, it has become MORE Tolkienesque. :P
In all honesty, comparisons can be drawn anywhere, if you really look for them. ;)
Well,
- Castle Perilous - Mount Doom (et al)
- orc hordes left right and centre
- Bloodstone Pass and the Black Gate ...
... it only struck me as beyond coincidental when I first saw LotR - for I never read it. And, matter of factly, I haven't look that deeply into the new stuff, but now that you say it.
Well,
- Castle Perilous - Mount Doom (et al)
- orc hordes left right and centre
- Bloodstone Pass and the Black Gate ...
... it only struck me as beyond coincidental when I first saw LotR - for I never read it. And, matter of factly, I haven't look that deeply into the new stuff, but now that you say it.
So I guess both Vaasas represent different elements of LoTR. The old Vaasa has the evil dark lord (Zhengyi), the orcs, and the Black Gate. While the new has Warlock Knights (evil humans who serve Sauron), the Voice, and of course the ruling council (Nazgul).
But I have to admit, the new version at least gets my creative juices flowing.
Not to mention stomach juices, thinking about 4e is hungry work
But I have to admit, the new version at least gets my creative juices flowing.
Calls for help and sends it over to you.
The Far Realms have been underused. In my opinion, its about damn time...
Cthulu R'lyeh!
-Yes. It would be nice for the campaign setting guide to you know...Do it's job, and describe the campaign setting and all...
or why have a campaign setting at all
According to BRJ, each region in the FRCG will get TWO pages... which means what you see is what we get.
Note that this excerpt has a reference to page 189 for details on their HQ, Telos, and to page 59 for details of the Pact of the Iron Ring, so quite clearly there is more on Vaasa than is presented here - two pages of geography for each region sounds possible.
or why have a campaign setting at all
-I'd rather have something than nothing.
Do you want cities where every building is already described, where all you have to do is open a book and know everything there is to know about the setting?
-Yes. That's the point of a campaign setting. To detail the setting for you. Someone I know put it aptly. I'm paraphrasing: "I buy it because I'm too lazy to make up my own."
-Regardless of what information is published and present, a DM can change things on his/her whim. Building 26 on 3rd Avenue in Waterdeep is detailed as a winery, let's say. The DM doesn't like that? Boom! It's not a winery in that campaign anymore. Not that difficult. Canon is going to be changed and "violated" no matter what "precautions" you take in a campaign. There's no way to get around it. It's impossible to play in a game that is 100% canon.
-I'd rather have something than nothing.
-Yes. That's the point of a campaign setting. To detail the setting for you. Someone I know put it aptly. I'm paraphrasing: "I buy it because I'm too lazy to make up my own."
-Regardless of what information is published and present, a DM can change things on his/her whim. Building 26 on 3rd Avenue in Waterdeep is detailed as a winery, let's say. The DM doesn't like that? Boom! It's not a winery in that campaign anymore. Not that difficult. Canon is going to be changed and "violated" no matter what "precautions" you take in a campaign. There's no way to get around it. It's impossible to play in a game that is 100% canon.
Some of us buy it to give us a direction and background to use. The details are where the DM makes his money, also the issues with cannon escalate when you add more details, more likely to have some player (and I know we have beat this horse to death) start complaining about "that isn't what is there". No supplement has ever provided the level of detail you seem to need, otherwise I wouldn't have had to spend several thousand dollars trying to discover every bit of the realms I could, and there are still parts I have to just make it up. If I wanted a setting that was completely laid out and didn't make me use my imagination, I would play Monopoly.
Some of us buy it to give us a direction and background to use. The details are where the DM makes his money, also the issues with cannon escalate when you add more details, more likely to have some player (and I know we have beat this horse to death) start complaining about "that isn't what is there".
-Which is an inherent problem with the player and/or the DM-player relationship, and is extraneous to the setting. In the Forgotten Realms campaign I am in, the DM, and all of the players are what I would consider Realmslore masters. Things do come up that aren't canon in the books. When these things come up, sometimes we players catch them, and other times, we don't. Never once has anyone said, "That's not how it is in X book!", and interrupted the game.
If I wanted a setting that was completely laid out and didn't make me use my imagination, I would play Monopoly.
-Thus is the point of pregenerated campaign settings. The world is already created, and there. The books tell us what the world is like, who it is populated by, what people are doing, and so forth and so on. By failing to tell us specific details about things, the book is failing in it's inherent purpose: to tell us what the world is like, who it is populated by, what people are doing, and so forth and so on.
-No one is stopping you from using your imagination. As I said before: Don't like something? Change it. You seem to be "falling prey" to the false notion that, in previous editions, everything was laid out for you, and you couldn't change it, but now you can. Completely false. The "same rules apply" now, then, and tomorrow.
but...
Calls for help and sends it over to you.
Its gets my creative juices flowing BECAUSE it is so uninspired as-is.
With the old FR, I felt like I could only make little chnages, or I would 'break it'. With the new one, I feel like I can do whatever the hell I want, and no matter what I do, I can only possibly make it better.
And I know you could always make big changes and YES, I always did so, but now I can do it without have to sit down and figure out exactly how my changes work into the canon stuff. I no longer care about canon (in 4e), so I don't worry about anything I leave out or change completely.
As far as novels go, I like consistency in a setting, so I will be going back and reading all the old setting novels from now on - there's quite a long list of ones I missed, so that should keep me busy for a long time.
I have no intention of reading 4e FR novels, because 4e is for gaming - there is no longer any sort of consistent story, so I have no interest in reading about it, only gaming in it.
So I get to have my cake and eat it to; reading about the world I love, and crapping all over the world I don't give two _____ about.
-Which is an inherent problem with the player and/or the DM-player relationship, and is extraneous to the setting. In the Forgotten Realms campaign I am in, the DM, and all of the players are what I would consider Realmslore masters. Things do come up that aren't canon in the books. When these things come up, sometimes we players catch them, and other times, we don't. Never once has anyone said, "That's not how it is in X book!", and interrupted the game.
-Thus is the point of pregenerated campaign settings. The world is already created, and there. The books tell us what the world is like, who it is populated by, what people are doing, and so forth and so on. By failing to tell us specific details about things, the book is failing in it's inherent purpose: to tell us what the world is like, who it is populated by, what people are doing, and so forth and so on.
-No one is stopping you from using your imagination. As I said before: Don't like something? Change it. You seem to be "falling prey" to the false notion that, in previous editions, everything was laid out for you, and you couldn't change it, but now you can. Completely false. The "same rules apply" now, then, and tomorrow.
Again, I agree, I know I can change cannon to suit my needs, others don't like to. I like pre-made modules and lore, it does make it easier. But too much makes it more like reading a textbook than exploring a world.
Look at the Running the Realms thread on the 13 lords of Vaasa, WotC could have just taken a minute to give us 13 names and a brief statement of each, but instead they left that up to the DMs and look at what some very creative people have done with the idea.
It is better to give to little lore at first, then add it in later, than to give too much and have to change things later, because we all know how fans feel about retcons.
I'd rather have a setting where I know the contents of every city-dwellers pockets at any given moment. :D
-There'd be a whole lotta mentions of lint...
With the old FR, I felt like I could only make little chnages, or I would 'break it'. With the new one, I feel like I can do whatever the hell I want, and no matter what I do, I can only possibly make it better.
-I can now talk from personal experience: Deep, bloody, messy dog bites, normally are not stitched, or anything of the sort. A gash on the arm, a slash on the leg, nothing. A small tear somewhere "important", like, say, your face, and it warrants stitches. Now, apply that to the Forgotten Realms...
;) :P
BTW, now that you plan on actually running an FR game for some of us, you may begin to understand my new take on things, and even come to appreciate it.
There's no 'research' involved when you want to run a 4e campaign.
Again, I agree, I know I can change cannon to suit my needs, others don't like to. I like pre-made modules and lore, it does make it easier. But too much makes it more like reading a textbook than exploring a world.
-It should be like a textbook. Campaign settings should be encyclopedic "databases" of the settings.
Look at the Running the Realms thread on the 13 lords of Vaasa, WotC could have just taken a minute to give us 13 names and a brief statement of each, but instead they left that up to the DMs and look at what some very creative people have done with the idea.
-And, you'll see me condemning them for not actually bothering to detail the different lords. That people are creative, and have created their own, that's all fine and dandy, but that doesn't really have any effect on anything, asides for allowing others to explore their own creativity. Which, is a good thing, don't get me wrong. But, those NPCs, are they canon? No. Thus, do they exist in the actual '616' setting, asides for people's individual ones? No. So, in the end, this does nothing for me. Who the NPCs are is still unrevealed.
It is better to give to little lore at first, then add it in later, than to give too much and have to change things later, because we all know how fans feel about retcons.
-With only two books being released, we all know this isn't going to happen much. DDI articles, and online DRAGON articles can only elaborate on so much, with tight word and page counts, and specific themes, and so on.
Not exactly sure what I'm supposed to take out of that, aside from the fact that you might be rabid...
-Not how I intended it. When it's a wound in a sensitive place, it requires delicate treatment to fix. When the same wound is somewhere that is not in a sensitive place, it doesn't require delicate treatment to fix. Applied to the Forgotten Realms, changes to places like the North, that have a lot of material about it, they are going to have to be delicate. Changes to places that don't have a lot of material don't have to be delicate. They can be radical, within reason, and still make sense in relation to the history of the area, and everything else that you'd need to take into account.
-But, those NPCs, are they canon? No. Thus, do they exist in the actual '616' setting, asides for people's individual ones? No. So, in the end, this does nothing for me. Who the NPCs are is still unrevealed.
I have named a few locales in canon, and have even created several new ones, and named a Princess. :D
But thats nothing when you realize Greenknight has slain a God.
Proving that it is entirely possible that fans of the game can indeed improve upon things when their ideas are good. I consider the '13 Knights of Vassa' thread sort-of an experiment, and if WotC decides to make some of that, or even just one thing, canon, then the setting has grown for it.
Personally, I'd like them to use the guy with the parasitic twin - thats just so gross, as in Ravenloft/Far Realms gross. Unfortunately, considering how they don't want 'inappropriate content' now, I don't think using 'freaks' would jibe well with their new 'ethical standards'.
Too bad, too, because I don't see how they can possibly make Ravenloft interesting with these new restrictions, and they did plan to re-do Ravenloft (else, why take back the license from 3rd parties?)
Is it that they have said they wouldn't release more, because their track record of doing what they said they would do (i.e. there will not be a 4e, just weeks before they announced a 4e) is questionable. They may just want to see how the initial roll out goes to decide if it is financially advisable to produce big expensive books.
-It should be like a textbook. Campaign settings should be encyclopedic "databases" of the settings.
So how long do you thing the FRCG(S?) should be? 1,000 pages? 10,000 pages? 100,000 pages? More?
None of the previous versions of FR have covered everything in much detail in the setting box, why should 4e?
The FRCG is inadequate, because they have told us that that is all there is, and our old sources are null and void, because the world is a different place now, and all the NPCs are dead.
As for naex - that would be totally counter-productive to their current business model - the splats would compete with the online-content for custommer base, and right now they want the DDi to succeed - producing info in regional books would just muddy the waters and confuse the customer-base even more.
They have basically said "It's DDi, or its nothing".
The ONLY way I can see them going back to the old format is if the DDi fails miserably.
because in the past we KNEW we were going to get tons of regional books and splats on creatures and magic
Assuming that the company didn't go bankrupt, of course.
I'd be quite happy if DDi succeeded, personally. We'll just have to see what actually comes out of it. I don't need a huge amount of paper product.
I hope it fails so we get our sourcebooks back
If you do, then you are willing playing in a setting that has thousands of years of lore, whole stretches of land layed out in minute detail, NPC's of all walks of life, with breath breathed into their descriptions. This is the Realms, it is a DEVELOPED setting, that is high fantasy, and designed to give the players and DMs the feel of a living breathign world.
However, if you do not want to play in the Realms, then you are left to make your own campaign world. It is admitedly more difficult to do, however it can be done. The Realms are proof of that.
You can not have both. At least you should not be able to. You shouldn't be able to say I want to play in the Realms, but I want as little information as possible so I can create the rest myself. Why/ Because that isn't the Realms. That is no YOUR homebrewed world.
It's very paradoxical what some people seem to want.
If wou want something all yours and original, but like the name, simply make it, and call it the Forgotten Realms. Don't force the rest of us to give up the REAL Realms.
A bit late for that, but it's seems simple logic to me.
-RW
I'd be quite happy if DDi succeeded, personally. We'll just have to see what actually comes out of it. I don't need a huge amount of paper product.
You may not, but most of us prefer a hardcopy in our hands. And I don't personally want to shell out 14+ a month to get a page worth of lore at best. By the end of the year, I could have bought a dozen source books, for the price of 12 pages in the new system.
-RW
P.S. Now if at the end of each year they compile a hardcopy of the DDi Realms content, I'll pay $14 for it.
I have named a few locales in canon, and have even created several new ones, and named a Princess. :D
But thats nothing when you realize Greenknight has slain a God.
Proving that it is entirely possible that fans of the game can indeed improve upon things when their ideas are good. I consider the '13 Knights of Vassa' thread sort-of an experiment, and if WotC decides to make some of that, or even just one thing, canon, then the setting has grown for it.
-Which means nothing at the present: They're still NPCs that aren't actually in the setting, being as that non-designers made them up. It'd be nice to see some of those NPCs, as most of them are pretty good (especially Rin's and Jigga's).
Unless they have stated that from now on novels aren't cannon.
-No, they still are canon. But, novels =/= sourcebook. Sourcebooks have things that novels don't (stats, spells, things like that), while novels have things that sourcebooks don't (depictions into the "living" Forgotten Realms).
Is it that they have said they wouldn't release more, because their track record of doing what they said they would do (i.e. there will not be a 4e, just weeks before they announced a 4e) is questionable. They may just want to see how the initial roll out goes to decide if it is financially advisable to produce big expensive books.
-Don't know. Rich Baker has simply stated that, as of right now, there is no intention to produce any other sourcebooks, beyond the FRCG and the PGtF. With the "one setting every year" thing, I believe that his claim will stay true in the future. 2009 is going to be about Eberron, and 2010 about another setting, and so on and so forth.
They have basically said "It's DDi, or its nothing".
The ONLY way I can see them going back to the old format is if the DDi fails miserably.
Not necessarily, dragon magazine was always a way to release info, but they still produced source books. Also DDI looks to be failing already, we are a two months into the release of 4e and they have managed to create an on-line database of the info in the books, No charges yet, and a sporadic collection of articles. Also some of us hate reading books on-line, and have no desire to waste expensive printer ink printing out every page we will need. Like all businesses they have to go where the demand is. The DDI is an attempt to get the on-line crowd (us I guess) and will never reach a lot of older players.
And what happens when you end up with 30 or 40 articles on, say. Waterdeep, at that point it would make sense to release a book with all that info combined. GHotR is a great example, built online and then released as a book, and a very popular one at that, would it have been as useful if it had just stayed online where only a few people in the know knew where to find it?
So how long do you thing the FRCG(S?) should be? 1,000 pages? 10,000 pages? 100,000 pages? More?
-However many pages needed to accurately and fully detail whatever the focus of the book is.
None of the previous versions of FR have covered everything in much detail in the setting box, but 4e should because you don't like the changes.
-Because of the changes things need to be detailed and explained, whereas in the past, things were already detailed and explained in other sourcebooks and guides.
-No, they still are canon. But, novel =/= sourcebook.
That's nice in theory but in practice a lot of people do count novels as source books, they introduce npcs and locations that aren't in official sourcebooks.
In most novels, any farmer with an afternoon off can storm Thay, dine with Bane, and be home to his sheep before sundown.
-RW
That's nice in theory but in practice a lot of people do count novels as source books, they introduce npcs and locations that aren't in official sourcebooks.
-I added more to my original statement, to further clarify it.
-Unless, with every novel comes a URL that can be accessed that provides specific D&D information for NPCs, or spells, or feats, or items. Such has been talked about by us in the past, and with the DDI, this certainly sounds like something that can be done. Much like with the 'Characters of X novel' that DRAGON Magazine had often enough.
It's very paradoxical what some people seem to want.
While I agree with everything you say (including my being a paradox :P ), my whole point is this -
The old realms are GONE, for good, We can hope all we want, but they are never coming back.
So I can either sit in my empty room with my books and my memories collecting dust and cobwebs, or I can move forward - however distasteful that might be - and at least try to make this new world into something akin to the Realms I once new.
I haven't changed my mind, really - I've just surrendered to the inevitable.
-You're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that novels can't create lore. That's exactly what they are designed to do. Novels can not, however, provide things like new spell details, or new feats, or new PPs, or overviews into specific details of specific societies (they can, but novel characters aren't omniscient, so we can't take these details as fact). This is what I mean.
-Unless, with every novel comes a URL that can be accessed that provides specific D&D information for NPCs, or spells, or feats, or items. Such has been talked about by us in the past, and with the DDI, this certainly sounds like something that can be done. Much like with the 'Characters of X novel' that DRAGON Magazine had often enough.
Again, that makes the novel the source of later books, it provides the basic info and inspiration used to flesh out those sourcebooks and articles.
I was reported this week for being offensive, even though the thing I said was meant completely in-offensively and would pass ALL FCC erequirements and could be aired on public television.
Hasbro has taken the liberty to decide what is offensive and what is not, over-ruling the federal Gov'ts own standars.
Buncha Commies.....
It appears that if someone else considers it offensive, then they are indeed offended, which means you can really be reported for saying ANYTHING if the offended party doesn't like you, and you have absolutely no recourse.
Its only a matter of time before they weed out all the 'bad seeds' - its like living under J. Edgar Hoover all over again.
Bel
While I agree with everything you say (including my being a paradox :P ), my whole point is this -
The old realms are GONE, for good, We can hope all we want, but they are never coming back.
So I can either sit in my empty room with my books and my memories collecting dust and cobwebs, or I can move forward - however distasteful that might be - and at least try to make this new world into something akin to the Realms I once new.
I haven't changed my mind, really - I've just surrendered to the inevitable.
I agree... except for me, moving forward means starting my own homebrew campaign. I accept that the old realms are gone. I have no desire to continue with the shell of what it used to be. Same thing happened to me in Dragon Lance, and WoD. So now I will creat my own setting, that I can control, and not have to worry about shelling money every month for online articles that I may or may not ever use, or purchasing splat books that may become obsolete.
But I realize I don't really have the time to fully flesh-out a world from scratch like I once did, plus I'm still working on 3e projects and running a seperate 3e campaign (in Golarion, starting in September).
So, a 'bare-bones' setting is perfect for my current needs, because the framework is there for me to hang all of my details on. Being familiar with the old FR is just a plus, in this case.
As I have said before, novels are canon when the relevant info is released in a campaign supplement.
Bel
Actually, novels are canon in and of themselves.
The Far Realms have been underused. In my opinion, its about damn time...
This is the Realms, not Call of Cthulhu.
"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn"
-Which means nothing at the present: They're still NPCs that aren't actually in the setting, being as that non-designers made them up. It'd be nice to see some of those NPCs, as most of them are pretty good (especially Rin's and Jigga's).
:D
Yeah, let's ask Rich Baker if they can be made CANON!*
*I'm only half-joking.;)
Actually, novels are canon in and of themselves.
I should have qualified that statement by saying 'in my game', sorry.
Bel
:D
Yeah, let's ask Rich Baker if they can be made CANON!*
*I'm only half-joking.;)
-Pssh, if our "demands" for things were always met...
I should have qualified that statement by saying 'in my game', sorry.
Bel
It's OK, no need to be sorry.
-Pssh, if our "demands" for things were always met...
Well, it worked for Greenknight.;)
This is the Realms, not Call of Cthulhu.
Yeah, and the way WoTC have been overusing the aberrations recently annoys me as well, but I do admit that I like having more villains that are more competant than senseless Zhent and CoTD magelings that suicidally throw themselves at paragons at good and always somehow ending up getting strangled by fat hairy Harpers or gutted by some ranger. Their bravado annoyed me to no end also.
This is the Realms, not Call of Cthulhu.
while it may not be the Call of Cthulhu, it sure ain't the realms anymore either really
This is the Realms, not Call of Cthulhu.
I don't know about that, a few of you seem about to descend into gibbering madness from the changes to the realms. :D
Yeah, and the way WoTC have been overusing the aberrations recently annoys me as well, but I do admit that I like having more villains that are more competant than senseless Zhent and CoTD magelings that suicidally throw themselves at paragons at good and always somehow ending up getting strangled by fat hairy Harpers or gutted by some ranger. Their bravado annoyed me to no end also.
-That's a problem with the authors, or whoever is designing such stories/adventures.
-msatran, over at the Realmsvault, wrote a very good article on to how to make the Zhentarim evil "again". As in, not bumbling, Keystone Kops that they are commonly portrayed as, but as in the evil mercantile organization that people fear for a reason.