You can also follow Brian on twitter: twitter.com/brianrjames
Below is a compilation of all dates found so far, from mixed sources, including Brian's posts.
Thanks to nyluenatha and lirdolin[ for compiling various non-BRJ events.
The Time Line
Note: the events which have only BRJ as a source are not canon, as noted by Brian in here.
Sources:
FRCG: Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide (includes page number)
GHotM:M: Grand History of the Realms: The Moonsheas (web article)
TWY: Countdown to the Realms: Spellplague: The Wailing Years (web article)
BRJ: Brain R. James Twitter updates follow Brian on twitter: twitter.com/brianrjames
RPGA: RPGA Adventures (by adventure code)
Novel: Published Realms novel (by name)
Dragon Magazin number and article
Dungeon Magazin number and article
1374 DR (Year of Lightning Storms): Tsarra ‘Autumfire’ Chaadren takes up the mantel of the Blackstaff, but hides under illusions of Khelben Arunsun. Blackstaff Tower 226
1375 DR (Year of Risen Elfkin): The ancient leShay capital of Karador rises from the crystal clear waters of Myrloch. The fey queen Ordalf announces the rebirth of the Sarifal and declares herself High Lady over all the lands of Gwynneth. GHotM:M
1376 DR (Year of the Bent Blade): The High One charges his pupil Flamsterd with retrieving Halaster's soul-shards, scattered throughout Toril and beyond. BRJ
1377 DR (Year of the Haunting): Captain Deudermont of the Sea Sprite breaks the stramngelhold of a collection of pirates over Luskan, and briefly serves as governor. His reign is short. FRCG 148
1379 DR (Year of the Lost Keep): From holdings in Amn, Lionel Carrathal declares himself true High King of the Moonshaes; demands Alicia abdicate to him. BRJ
1380 DR (Year of the Blazing Hand): Zhentarim Hatemaster, Cvaal Daoran, dissolves the Council of Ten and establishes himself as Lord Protector of Phlan. BRJ
1381 DR (Year of the Starving): Master architect Ivor Devorast constructs a precision mechanical clock installed in the tallest tower of Marsember. BRJ
- Lord Protector Daoran initiates the restoration of Valjevo Castle and reconstruction of Phlan's city walls. BRJ
1382 DR (Year of the Black Blazon): Shadovar magic raises a five-hundred-foot wall of magically-hardened obsidian around Sembian controlled Daerlun. BRJ
1383 DR (Year of the Vindicated Warrior): Netherese raze Zhentil Keep and the Citadel of the Raven; Fzoul Chembryl slain; Zhents divorce from Church of Bane. BRJ
1384 DR (Year of Three Streams Bloodied): At the insistence of several members of Court and the young king, Azoun V is crowned King of Cormyr. D#365 - Cormyr
1385 DR (Year of Blue Fire): The Spellplague: An unthinkable catastrophe ensues when Cyric, aided and abetted by Shar, murders Mystra in Dweomerheart. The plane itself disintegrates at once, destroying Savras and sending the gods Azuth and Velsharoon reeling into the endless Astral Sea. Without Mystra to govern the Weave, magic bursts its bonds all across Toril and the surrounding planes and runs wild. In Faerûn, this event is known as the Spellplague. Thousands of mages are driven insane or destroyed, and the very substance of the world becomes mutable beneath veils of azure fire that dance across the skies by night or by day. TWY, FRCG
Where once stood the realm of Sespech, the Golden Plains, and the Nagalands, the Spellplague reveals a surreal landscape breathtaking in its beauty, grandeur, and changeability. For the next century, active Spellplague cavorts on this territory called the Plaguewrought Lands, contorting terrain, natural law, and the flesh of any creature that dares enter.TWY
Cormyr is struck hard, but not so violently as many other nations. Roughly one third of all Wizards of War are slain, driven mad, or simply have gone missing in the year following Mystra's death.TWY, D#365 - Cormyr
The temple of Mystra in Harrowdale is destroyed when all the temple wards go haywire simultaneously, killing head priestess Llewan Aspenhold and most of her clergy. DALE1-1The Prospect
The Fall of Stars in Harrowdale is shrouded in a halo of blue flames for a full day, but otherwise seems untouched. DALE1-1 The Prospect
??? DR (Year Unknown): Stormstar Requiem: While the Spellplague rages, Talos leads the Gods of Fury in a surprise assault against Arvandor. BRJ
The first outbreak of the Spellplague is held at bay by Tsarra Blackstaff Chaadren. COLOR="Red"]Blackstaff Tower 226[/COLOR]
The second outbreak of the Spellplage in Waterdeep resurges from Undermountain and forces Tsarra to drop her disguise as Khelben Blackstaff. COLOR="Red"]Blackstaff Tower 226[/COLOR]
1386 DR (Year of the Halflings' Lament): A portion of Toril's sibling world Abeir violently exchanges places with large sections of Chondath and western Chessenta. Displaced genasi from the Abeiran land of Shyr quickly set about creating a kingdom of their own. TWY
The former expanse of the Sea of Fallen Stars is altered when wide portions of the landscape collapse into the Underdark. When the sea level reaches its new equilibrium, the average drop in water level measured nearly 50 feet. The waters of the Vilhon Reach were similarly drained, uncovering several drowned ruins from ancient Jhaamdath.TWY
The shallow Gulph of Luiren is formed when the hin nation is swallowed up by the Great Sea. BRJ
The Arnrock erupted violently, wiping out the Quick Folk that had settled around the old crater. FRCG 145
1387 DR (Year of the Emerald Ermine): The Emerald Enclave begins sending agents throughout the Vilhon Wilds to counter the effects of the Spellplague. As years became decades, their original mission is slowly perverted from one of respect for and guardianship of nature to a vain struggle against forces far beyond their control.TWY
An Abeiran mountain range made entirely of dense prismatic glass appears along the Northride, sealing off Shadow Gap. BRJ
1388 DR (Year of the Tanarukka): Bullywugs tribes from the Farsea Marshes begin harrying Zhentarim forces operating throughout the Tunlands, diminishing Black Network activities in the region. TWY
Some members of Cormyr's remaining War Wizards, having lost access to the Art, begin cross-training with the Purple Dragons in swordplay and martial defense. In years to come these swordmages will prove invaluable against neighboring aggression in the region. TWY
The Gundwynd line of Waterdeep nobility is ended as the Spellplague transforms the family into rampaging monstrosities. BRJ
Fiirnel'ther Vandree of House Vandree of Menzoberranzan assassinates her mother, Troken'ther, in order to assume leadership of her House. FRCG 231
1389 DR (Year of the Forgiven Foes): A strangely angular black monolith is sometimes visible breaking above the waves along Cormyr's coast, never in the same place twice. TWY
1390 DR (Year of the Walking Man): Dowager Dragon Queen, Filfaeril Selazair Obarskyr, dies. TWY, D#365 - Cormyr
Alusair attends the state funeral, argues briefly and privately with her nephew the king, and disappears altogether from Court. Rumors persist of her riding through the frontiers and borderlands, but no confirmed reports of her appearance exist following the burial of Filfaeril. TWY
1391 DR (Year of the Wrathful Eye): The human druid Zalaznar Crinios, transformed into a mighty treant for his service to nature, takes hold of the druid circle in Cedarspoke. A lesser druid, able to take lion form and calling himself Firemane, rises to prominence in the same circle. TWY
The Eldreth Veluuthra, a militant group of human-despising elves, seize control of the Hullack Forest. FRCG 108
Auril assimilates the Winged Mother's palace into her domain. D#367 - Hall of the Frost Maiden
1392 DR (Year of the Scroll): The Dragon Coast city of Pros petitions the Crown to become a vassal-state of Cormyr in order to protect it from the ravages of the Spellplague. Azoun V reluctantly accepts. By year's end, Pros' sister-town of Ilipur joins the Forest Kingdom as well. Unfortunately the receding waters of the Sea of Fallen Stars have spelled ruin for these small trading towns. TWY
1393 DR (Year of the Ring): Sembian investors begin buying up land in the southern Dales. Concerned, Azoun V issues a formal objection to the Dale's Council in Archendale but the King's emissary is rebuffed. BRJ, TWY
Spellscarred beings and pilgrims hoping to obtain a spellscar begin journeying to the Plaguewrought Lands in large numbers. They are welcomed in Ormpetarr by the Order of Blue Fire. TWY
1394 DR (Year of Deaths Unmourned): The Grand Cabal of the Emerald Enclave begins attempting to stem the tide of spellscarred pilgrims that pass through Turmish. TWY
Years of straining with their conflicted Sembian and Cormyrean identities, and struggling against the rule of Netheril, culminates in the annexation of the border city of Daerlun into the Forest Kingdom. TWY
A brief conflict between Cormyr and the Eldreth Veluuthra of the Hullack Forest breaks out, ending when King Azoun V turns his full attention to more pressing threats from neighboring Sembia and Netheril. FRCG 108
1395 DR (Year of Silent Death):
Sakkors, the Netherese floating enclave not seen since the days before the Spellplague, makes a reappearance over Daerlun in the dead of night. The following morning civil unrest breaks out throughout the city. Azoun V sends elite swordmages to restore order in the city. TWY
Urmlaspyr, considering allegiance to Cormyr, withdraws those plans when Sakkors enclave parks itself above the city. BRJ
Plaguebringer's Blight - Sickness and pestilence spreads throughout the North, unleashed by the Putrescent Anathema. BRJ
The Putrescent Anathema was unleashed from Stump Bog to the northeast of Waterdeep to spread sickness and pestilence throughout the region, hitting the temple-farm of Goldenfields particularly hard.FRCG 194
1396 DR (Year of the Secret): Marriage of King Azoun V of Cormyr to Nalara Marliir the daughter of Lord High Marshal Dauneth Marliir and Krystin Lhal. BRJ
1399 DR (Year of the Fallen Friends): Caladnei, Mage Royal of Cormyr, finally succumbs to years-long struggle with Spellplague; succeeded by Laspeera Inthré. BRJ
Tsarra Blackstaff Chaadren, her heir and many of the Tel’Teukiira die fighting a coven of vampire-wizards of the Stump Bog. Kyriani Agrivar risks her sanity by bearing the Staff and the powers of the Blackstaff back to Waterdeep. Blackstaff 247
Kyriani Agrivar becomes Blackstaff. To acknowledge her legitimacy as the city’s archmage, she proclaims it from atop Blackstzaff Tower, with Open Lord Caladorn at her side. This form of proclamation of the inheritance to the titel of Blackstaff becomes tradition.Blackstaff Tower 258
Chessentan coinage, once unique to each city-state, is consolidated into a single currency under the reign of War Hero Ishual Karanok D#178 - Chessenta
1400 DR (Year of Lost Ships): Krehlan "Blackstaff" Arunsun, son of Khelben Arunsun and Laeral Silverhand, assumes the role of Archmage of Waterdeep. BRJ
Sembia is fully absorbed into Netheril FRCG 176
The Alliance of Freesailors is formally disbanded. Ranks in Cormyr's Imperial Navy swell. D#365 - Cormyr
Krehlan Arunsun becomes Blackstaff Blackstaff Tower 258
1404 DR (Year of the Sceptered One): Council of Five agrees to invade the Moonshae Isles. Caer Westphal is siezed and Snowdown Isle subjected to Amnian rule. BRJ
1407 DR (Year of the Halls Unhaunted): Unexpected death of High Queen Alicia Kendrick. Carrathal loyalists ignite uprisings in Caer Corwell and Caer Callidyrr. BRJ
1408 DR (Year of the Solitary Cloister): Lionel Carrathal claims the throne of Corwell in challenge to newly ascended High Queen Feithline Kendrick of Callidyrr. BRJ
1409 DR (Year of True Omens): Refusing to swear allegiance to the unlawful High King, Carrathal orders hanging of Lord Aesun Koart in Corwell Square. BRJ
An epidemic ravages the metallic dragons of the Copper Mountains, with several survivors fleeing south. One, Skalnaedyr, becomes the first of the Dragon Princes of Murghom. FRCG 154
Foril Obarskyr, second son of Azoun V and Nalara Marliir, is born. D#365 - Cormyr
1411 DR (Year of the Wrathful Vizier): Crown Princess Cymidei Carrathal leads massacre of all fey dwelling within Deachtere Wood southeast of Cantrev Dynnatt. BRJ
1412 DR (Year of the Dauntless Dwarves): War erupts in the Moonshaes as High Lady Ordalf of Sarifal declares all non-fey settlers be driven from Gwynneth Isle BRJ
High Queen Feithline Kendrick orders a flotilla of swift carracks to Kingsbay to succor Ffolk evacuating Gwynneth. BRJ
Feithline’s armada, led by Admiral Felim Voel, are victorious over Amnian warships in the epic Sea Battle of Mog Goidel BRJ
1413 DR (Year of Sunken Vessels): Lionel Carrathal flees as Caer Corwell is overrun by fey. Leviathan sends the king's vessel to the bottom of Corwell Firth BRJ
1418 DR (Year of the Lords' Coronation): The Shadovar of Netheril 'accidentally conquer' Featherdale after years of Sembian investments into the dale. FRCG 108
Xenfyrth's Abyss is discovered in Old Shanatar by an adventuring company, of which Xenfyrth is the sole survivor. FRCG 235
1420 DR (Year of the Dark Goddess): Unable to subvert their neighbor as bloodlessly as Featherdale, Sembian mercenaries out of Yhaunn overrun Tasseldale. BRJ FRCG 108
1421 DR (Year of the Walking Trees): A Sembian mercenary army arrives in Chandler’s Cross, slaughtering many folk of the Scar and scattering the rest. BRJ
1422 DR (Year of the Walking Trees): Battledale comes under heavy attack by forces from Netheril, forcing the evacuation of Essembra. FRCG 108
Purple Dragon Knights of Cormyr move into High Dale to stave off Sembian advances upon their land. FRCG 108
1423 DR (Year of Thundering Hosts): Velen secedes from Tethyr. FRCG 178
The volcano Mount Kolimnis in the central Aphrunn Mountains erupts, burying Gildenglade under hundreds of feet of ash and mud. FRCG 185
1424 DR (the Dog-Eared Journal): Chartham Dellenvol kills Krehlan ‘Blackstaff’Arunsun Blackstaff Tower
(Ches) Ashemmon of Rymanthiin becomes Blackstaff (pg.258) Blackstaff Tower 258
1425 DR (Year of Seven Sisters) The Simbul is thought to have perished in the fire that destroyed the god Velsharoon. In truth, she survives in the Dalelands. FRCG 88
The age-old Dales Compact is reaffirmed with Myth Drannor and the Standing Stone is restored. FRCG 108
1428 DR (Year of the Elfqueen's Joy): The Seven Burghers of Harrowdale announce a formal alliance with Myth Drannor and rename the city New Velar. FRCG 108, BRJ
1430 DR (Year of Stalking Horrors): Foril Obarskyr marries Jemra Rhindaun, niece to Queen Sybille of Tethyr. D#365 - Cormyr
1431 DR (Year of the Lashing Tail): Crown prince Irvel Obarskyr is born. D#365 - Cormyr
1436 DR (Year of Silent Shadows): Several Cormyrean cities bordering Netheril and Sembia are blanketed by an unnatural miasma, blocking out the sun. BRJ
1437 DR (Year of the Silent Flute): Crown Prince Emvar dies in an ambush by Sembian forces south of the Vast Swamp. In the same month, queen Jemra is killed in a failed assassination attempt on the king. D#365 - Cormyr
1439 DR (Year of the Silent Tear): Cormyr and Sembia wage a series of increasingly hot battles, which escalates into full-scale war.D#365 - Cormyr
1440 DR (Year of Azuth's Woe): After nearly two decades of non-aggression, Sembia marches a large mercenary army against the Dalelands at Archenbridge. BRJ
The Swords, cloaked autocrats that ruled Archendale were unmasked and found to be in Sembia's pocket. Archendale staved off incorporation into Sembia only by becoming aware of the danger and making common cause with the free dales. FRCG 108
Branwyn Moonsinger, granddaughter to the late High Queen Alicia Kendrick, takes up the mantle of great druid D#376 - Sarifal
1441 DR (Year of Resurrections Rampant): Cormyr honors its alliance with the Dales, marching troops from Daerlun and Highcastle to besiege Saerb and Urmlaspyr. BRJ
Treaty of Griffonfang Bridge: Pressured on all sides, Sembia (with approval from its Netherese governors) agree to a cessation of hostilities with Cormyr, the Dalelands, and Cormanthor. The uneasy ceasefire endures to this day. Daerlun and Urmlaspyr gain their independence from both nations. D#365 - Cormyr
1442 DR (Year of Darkenbeasts): King Foril carries the ensign of the Purple Dragon, which can only be carried by a blood Obarskyr, into battle. D#365 - Cormyr
1443 DR (Year of Silver Bell Tolling): Sarifal and Imaskar exchange ambassadors, reaffirming their millennia old alliance. Embassies are established in each nation BRJ
1445 DR (Year of the Malachite Throne): A golemwork clock called the Timehands is finished by a collaboration of Waterdhavian guilds and installed into the Lords' Palace.FRCG 198, Downshadow
1446 DR (Year of the Queen's Honor): Deep gnolls are spotted hunting in the Northtrees March. It is unknown what menace drove the hahlorkh to the surface. BRJ
1449 DR (Year of the Godly Invitation): Death of King Azoun V. Coronation of King Foril.D#365 - Cormyr
1450 DR (Year of Holy Thunder): The scorching desert of the Skyfire Wastes are frozen over for months while Auril sents her vassals to battle the genies and efreet of Calimshan. D#367 - Hall of the Frostmaiden
Calim and Memnon are sent back to their home planes by unknown means. Their lieutenants and foot soldiers remain in Calimshan, and continue a bloody war base don little more than opposing philosophies. FRCG 98
1451 DR (Year of Knowledge Unearthed): Netheril makes diplomatic overtures to High Imaskar. The Mistress of the Night, a ship gifted by the Imaskari, is attacked by sea monsters on route to Sembia. The Netherese passengers flee, abandoning the Imaskari crew, and High Imaskar ends the diplomatic relations in retaliation. CORE2-2 Rising the Dark
1453 DR (Year of the Strangled Jester): Tai Shing, a Shou here who arose in Phsant and later became Suzerain of Thesk dies. FRCG 182
The minotaurs of Kond are swept away by the Warlock Knights. D#177 - Vaasa
1454 DR (Year of the Emerald Sun): Crown prince Baerovus Obarskyr is born. D#365 - Cormyr
1458 DR (year of the Plotting Priests): Breeandra Nenthyn, owner of the Fall of Stars club passes away. The adopted twins, Kira and Dayan Nenthyn, inherit the club. Yellira Am’benuinyl becomes the new Mistress of Stars. DALE1-1 The Prospect
1459 DR (year of the Forged Sigil): Azalar Falconhand resigns his lordship of Shadowdale, passing the Pendant of Ashaba to young shieldmaiden Addee Ulphor. BRJ, DALE1-4, FRCG 112
Queen Brianne Dragonsbane of Bloodstone is assassinated. This distracts the realm of Bloodstone from the marshalling Vaasan armies in the north. D#177 - Vaasa
1460 DR (Year of the Malachite Shadows): Princess Raedra Obarskyr is born. Dragon 365 - Cormyr
War erupts between the realms of Bloodstone and Vaasa. D#177 - Vaasa
1464 DR (Year of the Six-Armed Elf): The Waterdhavian archmage Ashemmon (formerly of Rhymanthiin) dies, passing the mantle of Blackstaff to Samark Dhanzscul
Blackstaff Tower 243, BRJ
1469 DR (Year of Thundering Hosts): The Children's Massacre occurs in Tethyr, with the slaying of all Queen Anais' nieces and nephews, with the exception of Ysabel Linden. The queen's half-sister Evonne Linden, who made a play for the throne, is killed the same night in a coordinated attack in another town.FRCG 178
Bloodstone City, capital of the unified Kingdom of Bloodstone, is overrun by Vaasa, ending the war. D#177 - Vaasa
1470 DR (Year of the Second Circle): Borigon, third son of famed Garumbelly “Grumble” Hillsafar, Borigon claimed his father’s throne D#177 - Vaasa
1475 DR (Year of the Final Stand): Draeven rapparees claim credit for the fiery destruction of Dauntinghorn Manor in Teziir. BRJ
1478 DR (Year of the Dark Circle): The Black Robes, a quorum of city judges in Waterdeep, welcomes the tiefling Kylynne Silmerhelve into their ranks. BRJ
Shadow creatures start appearing at random places in eastern Cormanthor DALE1-2 Blades for Daggerdale
1479 DR (Year of the Ageless One): Vajra Safahr becomes Blackstaff Blackstaff Tower
1480 DR (Year of Deep Water Drifting): Current campaign date.
Besides, he now has me doing the posting over here, so best of both worlds...
Gomez,
Realmslore Collector Extraordinaire
Timeline entries are, as Brian noted, excellent mini-messages that work great on twitter. And of course, having daily updates on twitter is easier and makes much more sense than on a board.
Besides, he now has me doing the posting over here, so best of both worlds...
Gomez,
Realmslore Collector Extraordinaire
But if it's canon lore as an update for THE Realms, how does it make "more sense" to put it first on Twitter, without intending to put it here (no offense, but if you didn't offer to do it, how many people would even know about this?)? Really strange.
(Note: could this possibly get stickied?)
I agree.
Thank you for starting this thread gomeztoo. This is now a must read thread.
Realmslore is realmslore no matter how we get it.
Timeline entries are, as Brian noted, excellent mini-messages that work great on twitter. And of course, having daily updates on twitter is easier and makes much more sense than on a board.
Besides, he now has me doing the posting over here, so best of both worlds...
Gomez,
Realmslore Collector Extraordinaire
Of course, the alternative explanation is that somebody, probably in Marketing, read that Twitter's "teh sh!t" now, that this whole social networking is something that can be leveraged, possibly with a tiger team, to create a whole new paradigm, yadda yadda.
Thus, using Twitter for official updates. Rather than, oh, I dunno, Dragon.
Of course, the alternative explanation is that somebody, probably in Marketing, read that Twitter's "teh sh!t" now, that this whole social networking is something that can be leveraged, possibly with a tiger team, to create a whole new paradigm, yadda yadda.
Thus, using Twitter for official updates. Rather than, oh, I dunno, Dragon.
That seems likely.
1399 DR: Caladnei, Mage Royal of Cormyr, finally succumbs to years-long struggle with Spellplague; succeeded by Laspeera Inthré
Screw that.
At least it's not official (I think/hope) and WoTC might be publishing pre Spellplague lore again. So we can ignore rubbish like that above.
As for why it's rubbish? Well, I think killing off an interesting and little explored character in a freaking twitter, in such a silly, unheroic way is kinda insulting. (And the Spellplague is a disease now as well? Interesting..)
...and the Spellplague is a disease now as well?...
It's a disease all right, it made me sick.
Awesome, BTW. Thank you for catching it and posting here.
(And the Spellplague is a disease now as well? Interesting..)
And yes, it causes disease like symptoms for some. Some get cured and end up with a spellscar, others are untouched, others plaguechanged.
All this can be seen in the FRCG.
When writing the FRCG I started building a personal timeline of events. Partly because I’m a history geek and I find it fun to do so, but also because I needed a believable framework of history upon which to base the ‘current events’ of 1479 DR. I continued this effort when writing Backdrop: Cormyr, and was aided greatly by Brian Cortijo who had designed his own events to fill in the century gap for Cormyr. And I continue to do so today as I work on DDI articles and a new FR adventure.
These events were not published, I believe, because WotC wishes to keep this period open for Dungeon Masters and novelists to flesh out. So why then am I posting them on my Twitter account? Because I feel this lore would be more useful in your hands than locked away on my hard drive.
So are these events canon? I suppose that’s up to you to decide. As they have not been published on the WotC site or in a sourcebook the official answer is No. Have these events formed the basis for my canon writing and will they continue to do so? Yes!
So are these events canon? I suppose that’s up to you to decide. As they have not been published on the WotC site or in a sourcebook the official answer is No. Have these events formed the basis for my canon writing and will they continue to do so? Yes!
Oh, Mr. James. What a can of worms you have opened!
"Are these events canon"? Well, if they're not published by TSR/WoTC/Whoever-owns-the-license, then, broadly speaking, no, they're not. As you point out, but then seem to undermine with the following sentence.
The canon is the canon, whether one likes it or not. There are plenty of things that haven't/won't happen in my Realms, but that doesn't mean that they're not canon.
I'm at a loss as to why you, in your position, would possibly decide to raise the issue. I don't really see a winning side.
WotC wanted to leave it open for DM's to have their way with it, but posting what was used on Twitter will allow the lore-mongers among us to see the how of the gap in time.
He's not stepping on toes, because it isn't official, and he is giving us a look at what we might not otherwise would have been able to know.
It's a win win for us.
1381 DR: Master architect Ivor Devorast constructs a precision mechanical clock installed in the tallest tower of Marsember.
These events were not published, I believe, because WotC wishes to keep this period open for Dungeon Masters and novelists to flesh out. So why then am I posting them on my Twitter account? Because I feel this lore would be more useful in your hands than locked away on my hard drive.
I think that's nice of you, although I don't use Twitter (and don't plan to start). I also think it's nice of gomez and others to post the, um, "tweets" here.
Thank you.
why do people complain about this
this twitter thing is everywhere
that's interesting, haven't heard about him in a while
Ivar Devorast? I hated that character and the whole philosophy behind his trilogy.* So, I can't honestly say I'm glad he's still showing up (not in my Realms, but still...).
No one should take that personally, though.
*If someone wants to know why, please PM me--I don't want to derail the topic.
or Skynet...
or The Matrix...
Or Colossus: The Forbin Project...
It WILL achieve a psuedo-intelligence, and eventually suck out our brains!!!
and when something like twitter gains so much popularity in short time and it's promoted everywhere, it's not goodIvar Devorast? I hated that character and the whole philosophy behind his trilogy.* So, I can't honestly say I'm glad he's still showing up (not in my Realms, but still...).
not a fan of her philosophy too, still I kinda appreciate the character cause he wasn't typical, an adventurer or magical, it was good to see some commoner achieving something for a change
not a fan of her philosophy too, still I kinda appreciate the character cause he wasn't typical, an adventurer or magical, it was good to see some commoner achieving something for a change
I agree, although in the case of Ivar I might have appreciated that concept more (that is, "commoner/non-adventurer achieving something") if the book kept to the idea of him being just a scholar/architect, and not also making him out to be a skilled and literally fearless warrior (there was no mention in the novels of him having had any kind of prior martial training).
BRJ is using Twitter (which I just became a member of to follow the timeline) to show us what was used as a baseline for the current Realms.
He also just posted what can only be described as his own argument that what he's posting ought to be considered canon.
So let's ask the obvious question: if Eric Boyd were to do the same, would it be considered canon? What about Sean Reynolds? Or Steve Schend? Or Rich Baker?
I'm willing to say, on the limited amount of work that I've seen from Mr. James, that each of those designers are better than he is. And I don't even mean that in any kind of insult to Mr. James. Purely a matter of opinion.
My point is simple: Mr. James doesn't get to decide what's canonical in the Realms. Nor do I.
I'm no fan of the 4E Realms. But it's not my property, nor is it that of Mr. James. None of those other Realms designers have deigned to add confusion to the canon. It would be best if no one did.
He also just posted what can only be described as his own argument that what he's posting ought to be considered canon.
No, he said use it if you like...
So let's ask the obvious question: if Eric Boyd were to do the same, would it be considered canon? What about Sean Reynolds? Or Steve Schend? Or Rich Baker?
Then you'd have options for what you'd like to use, if they contradicted each other that is.
I'm willing to say, on the limited amount of work that I've seen from Mr. James, that each of those designers are better than he is. And I don't even mean that in any kind of insult to Mr. James. Purely a matter of opinion.
An opinion to which you are entitled, but I don't agree.
My point is simple: Mr. James doesn't get to decide what's canonical in the Realms. Nor do I.
Your point is moot, seeing as he did not say it was canon.
I'm no fan of the 4E Realms. But it's not my property, nor is it that of Mr. James. None of those other Realms designers have deigned to add confusion to the canon. It would be best if no one did.
If you're not a fan, why bother complaining about a point you've construed to be something it is not?
No, he said use it if you like...
No, he said:
"So are these events canon? I suppose that’s up to you to decide. As they have not been published on the WotC site or in a sourcebook the official answer is No. Have these events formed the basis for my canon writing and will they continue to do so? Yes!"
And he's correct. If they haven't been published, then no, they aren't canon.
At the same time, he's suggesting, that, in his role as a Realms developer, whatever he might think represents the basis of canon.
Thus, he's arguing that this Twitter timeline, which isn't published by WOTC, ought to be canon.
Again, I repeat, I'm not personally using 4E; the official timeline in my Realms ended well before 1385.
What I'm saying is quite simple. Mr. James doesn't get to determine what is canon. He doesn't have the right to suggest that they are canon. I don't like the canon. Only what gets published is, actually, canon.
That shouldn't be that hard to understand.
Had he wrote, "Use it if you like it," I might well have been significantly less inflamed. That's not what he wrote. His writing on this board suggested that what he had based his writings on, the ones that were actually published by WOTC, ought to be considered canon as well.
Until the current license holder of the FR license says they are, at the very least with the imprimatur of publishing them, no one's musings are canon.
Then you'd have options for what you'd like to use, if they contradicted each other that is.
Canon can not contradict itself. Canon doesn't allow for options.
Ideas? Absolutely.
Concepts? Conceits? Idle thoughts? Yep.
But not canon. It either is or is not canon.
This is the same deal. BRJ put on Twitter what he used as a base for 4e FR's current timeline. What is in the FRCG was based on the information he put on Twitter. All he did was share with us what WotC chose not to publish.
It is not canon. It is not official. But it is what he used as a base for the things he worked on for 4e FR.
It is not hard to understand and, frankly, it doesn't matter one wit if you don't like it. Guess what... you don't have to use it! But, alas, you already know that.
I can't begin to imagine why someone, who dislikes and doesn't use something, would be foaming at the mouth about fan-made-support for it.
I mean it is not often we get a Realms designer and unabashed honest-to-the-deities fan(atic) of Brian's caliber doing this sort of thing. Many designers nowadays seem to have a sort of mercenary mentality. They get assigned tasks involving a setting that they may have some interest in, they finish the job and that's the end of it. How often do we hear from the other FR designers anyway? Rich Baker isn't even in charge of the Realms anymore last I hear, he's taken on broader responsibilities, which means he's less in the nitty gritty of the 4E Realms.
Brian is one of the few who would be doing this even if he didn't have freelance designer credentials. He's been doing it for years. I'd rather he set these precedents than many of the other designers attached to 4E FR, no offense to the others. This is coming from someone who both likes and dislikes some of his material.
"Use it if you like it" :P
Brian, out of curiosity, does your status as an official freelance designer with WotC allow you to publish Forgotten Realms material (either for profit or not) without prior approval of of WotC at some level?
Whether it's Twitter, the Forum, or perhaps a book, would this count as "publishing" with respect to WotC-related contracts? Gets a bit hazy, doesn't it?
Here's the problem:
- Canon, akin to a "show bible" for TV shows, allows novel writers the ability to remain consistent in what they write. At least, for the most part.
- Suppose freelance designer, person A, decides to post (for free) a "compatible timeline" of lore and the fans rush to gobble it up because it's good.
- Novel writer, person B, writes something that is consistent with the official canon, but it contrasts sharply with the "really awesome but unofficial" lore written by freelance designer A.
- Fans then fight bitterly over what is correct, and it might affect sales of novel writer B... and ultimately get freelance designer A (whose material might actually be better that what's official) taken of the list of people in line to write novels.
I'm not saying that this is what will happen, but it's generally why designers usually are kept to "publishing" or releasing only what's official.
-And, I wish canon inherently couldn't contradict itself. It sure can...The bane of our existences...
It is no different than Ed Greenwood saying, 'This is what happened in my home games.' It can conflict with official published canon. Many things Ed Greenwood has stated have come to be overwritten, corrected, modified or out right ignored in published canon. This is no different. You can use it if you want, ignore it if you want, change it if you want, it isn't published in a source book therefore it is not canon.
I think the question needs to be raised: If BRJ was posting non-canonical stuff about the pre-Spellplague Realms, would many of these same individuals still be so avidly against it? I think the fact that other individuals in the past who have done the same and similar as to what BRJ is doing, and that they have not been criticized similarly answers that question.
There is absolutely zero harm in this.
Canon can not contradict itself.
LOL
You've never followed the 1e/2e/3e Realms, have you? :D
I think George Krashos (amongst others) spent more time repairing the continuity then adding to it, methinks. ;)
The Shadoweave is the single most contradictory piece of lore ever created, and even though it's been retconned about 75 times, no-one is still sure about what it is... or was... and yet the whole damn setting revolves around 'shadowy' stuff now.
Isn't it amazing how everything is about something that has never been clearly defined? I think we all must be idiots....
The Shadoweave is the single most contradictory piece of lore ever created, and even though it's been retconned about 75 times, no-one is still sure about what it is... or was... and yet the whole damn setting revolves around 'shadowy' stuff now.
-It doesn't exist anymore, thankfully. What a debacle, that, but we still can't escape it fully, as the reasons for it disappearing can be nitpicked apart! Good grief...
I finally get to use twitter! :D
-It doesn't exist anymore, thankfully. What a debacle, that, but we still can't escape it fully, as the reasons for it disappearing can be nitpicked apart! Good grief...
Well, the Shades are trying to 'resurrect' the shadow weave, so.....
1441 DR: Cormyr honors its alliance with the Dales, marching troops from Daerlun and Highcastle to besiege Saerb and Urmlaspyr
1382 DR: Shadovar magic raises a five-hundred-foot wall of magically-hardened obsidian around Sembian controlled Daerlun.
No need to post them in separate posts (though as noted, it would help if the thread can be stickied, so I don't need to bump it after each update).
And can someone rename the thread and spell Brian's name right?
And can someone rename the thread and spell Brian's name right?
You can rename the thread.
Edit your first post, go to advanced edit and you'll see the threads title text and can change it.
I added the new ones that popped up... wasn't really paying attention, so I didn't notice that I had a post right above my last one.
Good gods. I can't believe people are actually b*tching about this, it's completely ridiculous. I don't think it's a coincidence that those who most ardently hate post-Spellplague FR are the individuals basically trying to bully BRJ into stopping.
I don't see anyone trying to "bully" BRJ into stopping. I just see an argument based on what BRJ said regarding the canoncity of this timeline, which is different.
Here is what he was saying: This stuff is non-canonical, it is my personal time line. If WotC gives me the opportunity, I may write about something in it in the future, but it is up to you if you want to use any of it or not.
It was pretty clear to me, which is why I did not understand the hostility. Thankfully, it has passed.
Brian is doing what he's always done, just having fun with Realms material. For years fans have thanked him for his work, even when much of his prehistory work in the Grand Histories was not yet official. For years people have made use of his timelines and other materials. While no one has explicitly stated it, I felt a surprising heavily implied resistance to him posting these timeline tidbits.
I think 4E FR needs all the help it can get. I personally think even with all this help, it will still have a ways to go before touching the PreSP FR in depth and breath. The Old Realms is quite secure in its standing, despite WotC recent actions. What doesn't help is the hostile attitude. What does help is directing all who ask about the Realms towards the appropriate older material.
Its Twitter I hate. :P
Its Twitter I hate.
I'm sure the feeling is mutual.
500 foot high curtain walls? WTF?? Why? Missed that in the FRCG! What did they need 500' walls for??
Intimidation... something to collapse on invading armies... a really big black mirror that'll come in handy for a ritual at some point... to corner the market on shaving razors... to stop the smell of the swamp from wafting over the Sembia in summer... the mirror thing again, only to keep the Sunites occupied staring at themselves in it... there's lots of things they could make something like that for.
Obsidian has often (especially in socalled "health charms and talisman" industries) been ascribed health and mental state enhancing properties, such as shielding from psychic attacks or removing cases of apathy and negativity.
Its Twitter I hate. :P
You know on the cool, you have a closet account.
:P
500 foot high curtain walls? WTF?? Why? Missed that in the FRCG! What did they need 500' walls for??
Ummmm... because 500' walls are a 100' cooler then 400' walls?
I'm sure the feeling is mutual.
Not having even seen Twitter, I am sure it is unaware of me as well.
Twitter kills kittens... I know, because I read it on the Internet. ;)
1380 DR: Zhentarim Hatemaster, Cvaal Daoran, dissolves the Council of Ten and establishes himself as Lord Protector of Phlan.
-Only Ed Greenwood and Rich Baker (to varying degrees) have the ability to post things and instantly turn them into canon (though different means). Steve Schend, Eric Boyd, Elaine Cunningham, Eric de Bie, no, none of them do. No one else except those two. Some, like Elaine, are more cautious to not provide non-canon speculation and guessing, as not to confuse people and things like that.
-And, I wish canon inherently couldn't contradict itself. It sure can...The bane of our existences...
Pardon the crossposting.
From Candlekeep, THO, posted 27 April 2009:
"Hello again, all.
Drizztsmanchild, the answer to your FIRST question is something Ed probably won't answer, now that you've taken it off the table (because I hadn't yet sent it to him). Anyone can accept, reject, or modify anything for their own Realms campaign, but the "what is canon" argument for the Realms is very simple, and specified by the original legal agreement when TSR purchased the Realms: canon is everything Ed says or writes about the Realms, unless or until superceded in print by a later official (not licensed, but TSR, so now, WotC) product.
That's it, pure and simple. No one can alter that without Ed's agreeing to the alteration, and he hasn't ever been approached to alter it. Individual gamers may disagree with that definition, but that's beside the point: except for little fragments in DRAGON articles (and the Heralds piece in one issue of GAMEPLAY, pre-1986) they only got to see the Realms AT ALL because of this agreement, so they're stuck with its terms, whether they admit that or not.
I doubt Ed can answer your second question due to NDAs, but I've sent an e-mail off to him, and we'll see.
love,
THO" [emphasis added]
Not sure where you picked up the Rich Baker thing.
*snip*
Many designers nowadays seem to have a sort of mercenary mentality. They get assigned tasks involving a setting that they may have some interest in, they finish the job and that's the end of it. How often do we hear from the other FR designers anyway?
That's because they get paid by the job. Many of the people you're talking about aren't employed by WoTC. Perhaps you do a lot of unpaid work for a company you've done some consulting for. Most freelancers do not.
More power to BRJ for being willing to work on his own time for something he loves. Many other FR fans have joined with him over the years.
I do think he was quite clear that these are his own notes and not official.
9:12 AM Apr 24th from tweet3
"Are the timeline events I'm posting official? Not exactly. Read this post for more details http://tinyurl.com/dl8zbc"
"Not exactly" is not "no". Had he meant "no", he could have simply said so. In fact, given that it's Twitter, he'd have been saving on valuable characters.
That doesn't count, to me, as "quite clear." "No" is clear.
"Not exactly" is not "no". Had he meant "no", he could have simply said so. In fact, given that it's Twitter, he'd have been saving on valuable characters.
That doesn't count, to me, as "quite clear." "No" is clear.
*sigh* What he means by that (and may lighting strike me if I'm wrong) is that it is not official-from him, WotC approved, to you- but it is the timeline that was used when they made the FRCG.
So, while it is not in print, solid, 100% genuine canon, it is as close as we can get until WotC decides to release it themselves.
Nowhere, I repeat, nowhere does he say it is official or that you must use it. Can we let goes of this nonsense now?
What Ed posts over at Candlekeep or anywhere else, means about as much as what BRJ is doing here, or Rich does on the forums here that is: nothing. It means absolutely nothing. The contract Ed has there is completely worthless, and not even worthy of being used for toilet paper simply due to the second half of the statement. Anything put into a source book or novel overrides anything he said previously.
And he has been overridden before a number of times.
Now, understand I am not saying it has no value. It is good because it allows us to understand things contextually or it helps us to achieve a greater understanding of the setting. However, Ed could post a huge list of all the noble houses of Cormyr (as an example) and then have that completely overwritten by something in a source book.
Here is my analogy of Ed's role in relation to the Realms: Ed is like the founder of a company. It was his brain child, and he was the CEO for many years. Then he decided to retire (sell the rights of the Realms). The company has decided to keep him on the board as an advisor, but he is no longer calling the shots or making the decisions. His opinion is valued and taken into consideration, but he has no real control over things.
When he writes a novel or submits information for a source book, it goes to an editor. Other people decide what is acceptable and what is not. They have him change it, modify it, occasionally even going against his original vision, and in the end they use his name to promote the product. Even if it was not a product that he himself would create if given the freedom to do what he wanted.
If someone was SERIOUSLY worried about keeping their Realms COMPLETELY canon – as in nothing happens that is not canon, players are endlessly railroaded, etc. Then they'd never use Ed's material posted on Candlekeep because it can be, has been, and in the future will be again overwritten... making it no more or less meaningful than anything else anyone else would print or say on the forums here.
I have a great deal of respect for Ed, and enjoy most of what he posts. I am simply stating a fact of reality.
Though I suspect you're correct there Meldread, just don't tell anyone I said so...
:D
I know my post came off harsh, and overly blunt. I do hope no one misconstrues it as any personal negativity toward Ed. I like him, even if we don't always agree. :P
The harsh tone is a result of my irritation that this discussion is still on going.
...but yeah, to my point what Ed posts is more or less irrelevant canonically. Sure, he has a piece of paper, but it means nothing.
It's no different than if I said everything I posted in the Osse thread is canon, unless WotC writes something in a source book or novel to contradict it. Yes, well since there is no real information on Osse outside of what is posted in the Osse thread, it is irrelevant.
Much like this time line here - it is irrelevant. The 4th Edition Realms as published by WotC has left the time line blank. Brian could claim canon if he wanted, but it'd be functionally irrelevant if WotC posted something contradicting it in a novel or source book... putting him in the same position as Ed.
Which, in effect, means that contract by Ed is worthless (at least in so far as that clause of it goes). :P
Screw that.
At least it's not official (I think/hope) and WoTC might be publishing pre Spellplague lore again. So we can ignore rubbish like that above.
As for why it's rubbish? Well, I think killing off an interesting and little explored character in a freaking twitter, in such a silly, unheroic way is kinda insulting.
Yes. Every character must die heroically.
(And the Spellplague is a disease now as well? Interesting..)
Given the descriptions of the spellplague on magical users, it wouldn't be surprising that it could act like a disease or a permanently disabling condition that could eventually kill someone like a disease. Especially given how many archmages simply went insane or how others exploded from it. He may have had a similar issue initially and yet had the willpower/strength to not die straight away.
Anyway, as for the canon discussion I'll use anything I deem interesting and ignore everything else. There are a couple of things there that fit into potential campaign plot arcs I am wanting to establish in future though, so I'm certainly finding it useful. If it gives me some good ideas for future campaigns or plots I'm all for this sort of thing, even if it isn't "official" canon or not (I don't really care actually, because it's not like something being canon makes it better in any shape or form. See Szass Tam and "Undeath" for such good examples).
That's because they get paid by the job. Many of the people you're talking about aren't employed by WoTC. Perhaps you do a lot of unpaid work for a company you've done some consulting for. Most freelancers do not.
More power to BRJ for being willing to work on his own time for something he loves. Many other FR fans have joined with him over the years.
True as your statements on freelancing may be, this field has more leeway given that some of it is actually fun. I'm not asking every designer do this, but we shouldn't take an overly harsh tone towards those who do, even when we disagree with them. That is not to say we cannot ever disagree with them or hold out thoughts when we do, just do it in a more tactful way.
The Realms had a long tradition of freelancers who interacted with the fans and who offered their thoughts and tidbits of Realmslore without the incentive of monetary gain.
9:12 AM Apr 24th from tweet3
"Are the timeline events I'm posting official? Not exactly. Read this post for more details http://tinyurl.com/dl8zbc"
"Not exactly" is not "no". Had he meant "no", he could have simply said so. In fact, given that it's Twitter, he'd have been saving on valuable characters.
That doesn't count, to me, as "quite clear." "No" is clear.
While his statement might not be initially terse and definitive it was clear given the actual status of his material. No they are not official, but he used some of his timeline when he devised official material for the Realms. It falls into a middle area, not as strongly as Ed's contractual canon, but more so than any regular fan just coming up with timeline blurbs. It was an answer that required more words than simply "no." "No" wouldn't have been absolutely clear either.
Fans argue: it is "as close as we have to canon" vs. it is "not canon at all," with sideline questions generated as to what is required for canon. A legal definition is given, others reject it. Fans begin to call each other names, or suggest that even arguing about any of it is "stupid" or worse.
The post-apocalyptic version of the Realms is muddied even further.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
The funny thing is, no one seems to be under the illusion that anything here is canon. I've even gone as far in my posts to say that even anything Ed himself says shouldn't be taken for canon because it can be retconed (and let's face it: it often is) by a novel or source book.
Therefore if anyone is having trouble understanding what is or is not canon simply take my position, because it is clear and concise: The only thing that is canon is what is in the novels and the source books.
There is no real danger of WotC suddenly publishing a source book or novel with conflicting canon, because they should have editors working to make sure it is all consistent. Could a designer work on a source book or an author work on a novel that uses something generated as non-canonical as either seed for an idea or out right "lifting" of the idea? Sure, and if it is published in a novel or source book it becomes canon.
It's pretty simple and clear, from my perspective. The only thing muddying the waters is Ed's contract, but as I said that is irrelevant if you take my position which is the strongest if you want to be absolutely sure what is or is not canon.
Meldread
I agree with you on the point where everything Ed says or posts should be taken with a grain of salt as they are likely to be "retconned" more often than not.
I just wanted to state my opinion: The difference between Ed and every other author(except authorized by WotC and the officals of Wotc) is that everything that Ed says, writes, posts is "automaticly" considered canon and doesn't need approval from the brass at Wotc like everyone else.Granted he can be retconned 2 sec afterwards but it's canon for those 2 secs. I know of no other person who has that for FR.
That's all I wanted to point out. Sorry for the continuation of this silly debate.
I really only stopped in to check for updates in the timeline.
It is kind of stupid that the discussion is still continuing... Brian's doing something out of the kindness of his heart, there's not much (well any really, but I'm being generous) reason to jump down his throat for it. Don't like it, don't use it and ignore its existence, and let those who do like it enjoy it.
You talk about things that are impossible.
Impossible.
Meldread
I agree with you on the point where everything Ed says or posts should be taken with a grain of salt as they are likely to be "retconned" more often than not.
I just wanted to state my opinion: The difference between Ed and every other author(except authorized by WotC and the officals of Wotc) is that everything that Ed says, writes, posts is "automaticly" considered canon and doesn't need approval from the brass at Wotc like everyone else.Granted he can be retconned 2 sec afterwards but it's canon for those 2 secs. I know of no other person who has that for FR.
Yes, I know. I wasn't saying that wasn't the case. :P
What I was saying is this: While what Ed says is canon (provided it does not conflict with established canon), it in effect means little due to the fact that it can be retconed so easily. Therefore, it means just as much as this Timeline being posted by Brian (which can also be retconed easily), or something posted in the Osse project thread, or something I (or someone else) says about some previously untouched upon lore.
I could claim that X is canon, so long as it isn't conflicted by a source book or novel, and it would effectively mean the same as anything stated by Ed. The only functional difference is that he has a peice of paper and a number of people accept what he says as canon.
But if you were an individual such as some posting here, who are jumping down Brian's throat because you are so concerned over what is canon and what is not... why is it that you'd focus on this and not something Ed posted and was retconed by WotC (or TSR in the past). Perhaps an even better example is something Steven Schend posted about Amn or Tethyr, places that he designed and created. He doesn't have the legal contract such as Ed, and yet people still go to him for advice and lore about those places... and whatever he says is functionally the same as anything Ed says, because it can also be retconed in a novel or source book.
Thus, my point: If an individual is so concerned about what is and is not canon, then the logical conclusion is that the only thing that should be considered canon is something in a novel or source book. What is posted on forums or other messaging groups is irrelevant and functionally non-canonical until it is in a novel or source book.
There is no real danger of WotC suddenly publishing a source book or novel with conflicting canon, because they should have editors working to make sure it is all consistent.
Surely you jest, in light of all the different versions of the Shadow Weave, to name but one, that we've seen appear at different times in canon... :P ;)
The funny thing is, no one seems to be under the illusion that anything here is canon. I've even gone as far in my posts to say that even anything Ed himself says shouldn't be taken for canon because it can be retconed (and let's face it: it often is) by a novel or source book.
Therefore if anyone is having trouble understanding what is or is not canon simply take my position, because it is clear and concise: The only thing that is canon is what is in the novels and the source books...
This position is demonstrably incorrect.
What I was saying is this: While what Ed says is canon (provided it does not conflict with established canon), it in effect means little due to the fact that it can be retconed so easily. Therefore, it means just as much as this Timeline being posted by Brian (which can also be retconed easily), or something posted in the Osse project thread, or something I (or someone else) says about some previously untouched upon lore.
I could claim that X is canon, so long as it isn't conflicted by a source book or novel, and it would effectively mean the same as anything stated by Ed. The only functional difference is that he has a peice of paper and a number of people accept what he says as canon.
No offense, but that "little peice (sic) of paper" makes all the difference in this. Quite simply, there is no argument one can make about this: it's a legal document. Some of what Ed has posted has been retconned, yes; but he's also posted a -lot- outside of sourcebooks and novels that is still quite clearly canon.
But if you were an individual such as some posting here, who are jumping down Brian's throat because you are so concerned over what is canon and what is not...
Who is doing this? I don't see anyone "jumping down Brian's throat." I've seen people asking for clarification from Brian, and he responded, and then quite a few other people have claimed hostility, arrogance, and even stupidity on the part of other posters. And as we all know, when fans start attacking other fans, that always results in more of same.
Who is doing this? I don't see anyone "jumping down Brian's throat." I've seen people asking for clarification from Brian, and he responded, and then quite a few other people have claimed hostility, arrogance, and even stupidity on the part of other posters. And as we all know, when fans start attacking other fans, that always results in more of same.
Now that is an extremely one-sided way to look at something.
Who is doing this? I don't see anyone "jumping down Brian's throat."
What thread are you reading? Note that this is demonstratively incorrect to anyone who has read page one of this thread. Are you really selectively reading this hard?
I've seen people asking for clarification from Brian, and he responded, and then quite a few other people have claimed hostility
Quite rightly as well. You only need to inspect page 1 to find out why this is the case.
You know, I just don't know why I bother anymore. Any thread, anything that is remotely interesting or positive in regards to the Forgotten Realms at the moment turns into this. But only one side never takes responsibility for their part in it.
Who here is 'asking for clarification', or complaining about what BRJ is doing, and actually likes 4e FR?
No guess, no one.
I'm not sure I understand why folks who are refusing to except 4e are quibbling over lore that doesn't even apply to them.
I have no use for the new setting, or anything that lead up to it, so why would I voice an opinion about Brian's timeline?
I'll tell you what I do have an opinin about - TWITTER!
Sorry.... thats just gotten really fun to do.... :P
I'm not sure I understand why folks who are refusing to except 4e are quibbling over lore that doesn'teven apply to them.
Because anyone who doesn't agree is wrong and must be smited. It's very tiring.
...
You're one step closer to excepting 4e FR... and Twitter is still in the 'extreme irrational hate' phase, but it will come. Resistance is futile.
*Side note; are you still working up the nerve to make some 4e FR maps? I was thinking you could add the stuff from my 'Where in the Realms' thread...?
Is it the Darth Vader kind of evil, or the Jar-Jar-Binks kind of evil?
The kind that sneaks up on you in the middle of the night and steals your cheerios.
You're one step closer to excepting 4e FR... and Twitter is still in the 'extreme irrational hate' phase, but it will come. Resistance is futile.
*Side note; are you still working up the nerve to make some 4e FR maps? I was thinking you could add the stuff from my 'Where in the Realms' thread...?
To be 100% honest...
I'm growing tired of supporting a dead setting, and I am growing tired of the arguments. I'm also growing tired of some of the overt hostilty people on 'my side' continue to show, whch is becoming so repetitive it isn't even fun anymore (and yes, poking fun at stuff is fun when you're a jerk like me).
I havn't decided which way I'm going to go yet - support 4eFR, switch to Pathfinder/Golarion, or just switch to a new hobby all together. I just know I can't keep supporting old FR... its been losing its luster for me of late.
I been working on my own setting, but I'm still not sure what I want to do with that. I've been thinking about creating a website about my world, which would include free maps and regional information, but thats a lot of work and its hard for me to stay focused for that long.
Maybe I'll just do a partial map and see what sort of interest it generates.
I'm also growing tired of some of the overt hostilty people on 'my side' continue to show, whch is becoming so repetitive it isn't even fun anymore
No no, you're quite mistaken. If you believe Colman this is all everyone elses fault apparently.
Maybe I'll just do a partial map and see what sort of interest it generates
You need to post more at the Cartographers guild. That would be an excellent place to gauge some interest and get some feedback. It's among my favourite forums on the internet and I am sure you would get a lot of interest in your maps there.
Edit: As an example, some people have such beautiful cartography there that I have often wanted to just pick up their worlds and detail them from the mere worldmap (or whatever else) simply because I admire it so much. It certainly is true (in my case anyway) that a good map can be very inspiring for everything else in a setting.
I'm ending my discussion on the matter. I've said all that I have to say on it, and continuing beyond this point only enables individuals.
Markus-
I am going to echo the remarks by Aegeri. The Cartographers Guild is a wonderful place.
1475 DR: Draeven rapparees claim credit for the fiery destruction of Dauntinghorn Manor in Teziir.
New one.
Secondly, it once again appears that the current crop of FR designers want to kill off or remove any women from positions of power within the Realms. That quite infuriates me.
Secondly, it once again appears that the current crop of FR designers want to kill off or remove any women from positions of power within the Realms. That quite infuriates me.
Wasn't that replacing a female with a female? What?
Secondly, it once again appears that the current crop of FR designers want to kill off or remove any women from positions of power within the Realms. That quite infuriates me.
-You do realize that trope (A, that the current Forgotten Realms authors/designers hate women, and B, that entities that are female are "unfairly targeted" for removal, as opposed to males) has been disproved many times, yes?
This is why I am hereby stipulating that if anyone writes a fictional character based on me that my character be given a ****** so that I may enjoy these mystical benefits.
(I cannot believe they block the v word here. :P Apparently it's a WotC conspiracy to suppress any discussion of female genitalia!)
Though I did think it was about damned time that Laspeera got her day in the spotlight... I quite liked that bit.
New one.
Thank you!
Ilsevele Miritar Coronal of Myth Drannor.
Queen Arathane, ruler of Akanûl.
I believe several on the Council of Five in Amn are female.
Shala Karanok, ruler of Luthcheq in Chessenta.
Empress Ususi, ruler of the new Imaskari Empire.
Need I go on?
The claims made simply hold no water. The females I listed are not even a comprehensive list, just the names that came readily to mind. Of course, we also have to keep in mind that the FRCG is very NPC lite, naming very few.
Firstly, yes, I would prefer for interesting, unique and heroic characters to die heroic, or meaningful or just plain interesting deaths. Not to just get written out in a single line.
Yes, because this is supposed to be detailed and comprehensive, as opposed to adding summaries to a potential timeline of events that happened during the spellplague.
Edit: Not to mention I did find it an interesting revelation the spellplague might be able to kill individuals as a kind of disease, not just due to initial damage from miscasting spells or whatever other injuries happen when it goes off.
Further, he could have just said 'Due to Spellplague related injuries, Caladnei resigns', rather then killing her off.
He could have, but he didn't and I suspect you would have reacted with the usual bile and venom you spew in every thread either way.
Secondly, it once again appears that the current crop of FR designers want to kill off or remove any women from positions of power within the Realms. That quite infuriates me.
If this had any basis in reality it might be valid, but unfortunately it doesn't as other discussions in the past have gone over more comprehensively.
Sorry MT. I agree with Twitter being evil(hence the strife and Discord it has caused in this thread). Which is why I used the quote above. I'm surprised no one sent
after BRJ. :PSorry MT. I agree with Twitter being evil(hence the strife and Discord it has caused in this thread). Which is why I used the quote above. I'm surprised no one sent
-Ody is on vacation, and dealing with some personal stuff.
Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.
I am going to echo the remarks by Aegeri. The Cartographers Guild is a wonderful place.
I was posting there a lot (I believe that was the first place I posted my Returned Abeir Map), but I took a hiatus until I can become a real artist.
Some of those guys do incredible work, and my 'look-alikes' just don't cut-it (basically lifting someone else's textures and re-applying them). MOST of what I do is research on each area I detail - the art, unfortunately, belongs to WotC, because its too derivitive of their stuff (and a lot is directly pasted from the official map).
I am currently devloping new techniques - notably shading, which I've used in the last couple I showcased, and I'm trying to draw my own mountains to give the maps more of a 'fantasy feel'.
I really need to get my tablet working....
Sorry MT. I agree with Twitter being evil(hence the strife and Discord it has caused in this thread). Which is why I used the quote above. I'm surprised no one sent
So are you saying that Twitter is a tool of Cyric? Twit=Cyric. ;)
"In the land of Renton, where the shadows lie."
:lightbulb You know, I think my homebrew just gained a settlement called Rentown on the coast, wherein dwell a cabal of evil wizards. :D
@MarkusTay: Twitter's not evil. I see it as an early version of Shadowland, the BBS from Shadowrun.
I just know that when something goes from obscurity to being mentioned 5-6 times a day on news and entertainment programs, there's some sort of 'plot' involved.
It is a new and shiny news medium. Think post-it style chat room. Except that it's really a one-person-focused chat. You won't see other people's responses.
Actually, depending on how you set your account up, you can view the replies as well.
Basically, you 'broadcast' your thoughts in 170 characters or less to the ether. Some people 'follow' the broadcast and can reply to you (by doing the @NAME thing, like I did in response to you MT ;)). It's sorta like Instant messaging, but everyone can read it instead of just the person you're texting.
UGH.
Joooooin uuuuusss
JOOOOOOOOOIIIINN UUUUSSSSS
BRAAAAAAAAAAAIIINNNNS
One of us! One of us!! One of us!!!
Thanks Colman for the tweet, tweet, tweet.
1459 DR: Azalar Falconhand resigns his lordship of Shadowdale, passing the Pendant of Ashaba to young shieldmaiden Addee Ulphor
Monty Pyhton's 'Twit Olympics'. :D
And another one hits the Twit.
Twit, twit, twit,...twit, twit, twit,...twit your booty,...twit your booty!
:P Who says women are not well represented in the 4th Edition Forgotten Realms. ;)
1459 DR (year of the Forged Sigil): Azalar Falconhand resigns his lordship of Shadowdale, passing the Pendant of Ashaba to young shieldmaiden Addee Ulphor.
Depends on what you call 'young' - Addee Ulphor is an elder woman at this (1479 DR) time, so she was likely at least 30 years old when she got the pendant.
The date matches though.
Gomez
I would lean toward the latter, because it's more fantastical, I think. Ergo, a thirty-year-old woman in the Realms would only be 25 had she been born on Earth (applying a 5/6 ratio here).
The other way to go is to go along with the old (and now defunct) theory that magic=life, and the all-pervasive Weave 'energizes' people somewhat more.
The reason that I think this (that folks live longer) is that we have some pretty old people in the Realms who aren't using magic (compared to the RW Middle-Ages), and I can think of at least one canon example of a fifty year old human woman getting pregnant (she would have been considered an 'old crone' here on Earth a couple hundred years ago).
Or it could simply be that humans in the Realms are superior physical specimens when compared to Earth humans.
Whichever way you look at it, we have canon to back-up the fact that a thirty year old woman is by no means 'old' in the Realms.
Depends on what you call 'young' - Addee Ulphor is an elder woman at this (1479 DR) time, so she was likely at least 30 years old when she got the pendant.
Not sure what leads you to believe that Lady Ulphor is elderly (you made me double check the FRCG! :P ).
Present day, I picture Addee in her early forties. I hope to fill in her back-story someday, specifically the events which led to her ascension to Lady Lord of Shadowdale. I'm her creator after all.
I'm under the impression that either people in the Realms have somewhat longer lifespans (closer to our modern ones), or that time flows slightly differently in Realmspace (their 24 hour day is roughly equivalent to twenty hours of our time).
I would lean toward the latter, because it's more fantastical, I think. Ergo, a thirty-year-old woman in the Realms would only be 25 had she been born on Earth (applying a 5/6 ratio here).
The other way to go is to go along with the old (and now defunct) theory that magic=life, and the all-pervasive Weave 'energizes' people somewhat more.
The reason that I think this (that folks live longer) is that we have some pretty old people in the Realms who aren't using magic (compared to the RW Middle-Ages), and I can think of at least one canon example of a fifty year old human woman getting pregnant (she would have been considered an 'old crone' here on Earth a couple hundred years ago).
Or it could simply be that humans in the Realms are superior physical specimens when compared to Earth humans.
Whichever way you look at it, we have canon to back-up the fact that a thirty year old woman is by no means 'old' in the Realms.
My take was that healing magic led to longer lifespans... my own view, based mostly around the Volo's Guides, was that people actually tended to live longer lives compared to modern lifespans. My views went something like having healing magic applied was almost like having a reset button pushed for your age range in a lot of respects, given its non-specific healing abilities. I'd say they undid a lot of the damage that people did to their bodies over time, and increased lifespans simply because there was less accumulated wear-and-tear on internal organs and the like.
Another reason for it is likely hygeine... the Realms seems much better off, with lore much more widespread on how to repel and prevent vermin infestations. I seem to recall Volo's mentioning fairly widespread use of herbs to keep vermin at bay, and treating those places that didn't use them as aberrations, suggesting it was a fairly common and widespread practice. Bathing seems much more regular as well, which can't exactly hurt the issue any, while it was much more rare in Europe, considering bathing was frowned upon by the Church for the most part (consider what a "Good Christian Smell" was caused by... and no, it wasn't incense or oils).
I can't say I've ever cared for the one-to-one comparisons of the Realms and Earth's medieval period... the two just don't match up in anything but technology, and the Realms has usually pushed more towards the rennaisance period than the medieval period for the most part.
:P
Got a new one:
1379 DR: From holdings in Amn, Lionel Carrathal declares himself true High King of the Moonshaes; demands Alicia abdicate to him
Not sure what leads you to believe that Lady Ulphor is elderly (you made me double check the FRCG! :P ).
She appears in DALE1-4 the Lady in Flames, and I had to expand what little there was in the FRCG (as there isn't anything - not even race). I don't know what I can post on the boards, as it isn't released yet and R&D migth change stuff, but I did describe her as an 'elder' woman in one of the boxed texts. I didn't give an actual age, though with 'elder' I meant to indicate late 40s or early 50s (as I picture late twentes/early thirties is a better age to become lord-mayor). Note though that Addee, while human, has some elven blood, so she may age a bit slower than normal humans.
I hope to fill in her back-story someday, specifically the events which led to her ascension to Lady Lord of Shadowdale. I'm her creator after all.
I didn't realize that, or I would have checked with you, sorry 'bout that - I will send you the info I have by PM.
Gomez
;)
:D
I'm under the impression that either people in the Realms have somewhat longer lifespans (closer to our modern ones), or that time flows slightly differently in Realmspace (their 24 hour day is roughly equivalent to twenty hours of our time).
I would lean toward the latter, because it's more fantastical, I think. Ergo, a thirty-year-old woman in the Realms would only be 25 had she been born on Earth (applying a 5/6 ratio here).
That seems overly complicated, and makes dealing with cross-world chronology impossibly difficult.
Occam's razor: many named NPCs happen to be relatively long-lived. No further explanation is needed. The amount of named NPCs compared to the total amount of people in the world is far too small to deduce a meaningful pattern anyway. Even in that tiny sample group, it's probably confirmation bias on your part.
So no difference would be noted.
Elminster may note that Ed Greenwood is aging slightly faster then people on Toril, but he would just attribute that to having to work with WotC. :P
Heck... they just aged poor ol' Ed a 104 years!
Anyhow, I actually had a thread a long time ago explaining how I saw aging effected by a magical environment, but that thread is lost to the ethers now with all the board-changes.
Anyhow, I actually had a thread a long time ago explaining how I saw aging effected by a magical environment, but that thread is lost to the ethers now with all the board-changes.
-Remember the name, or when it was made? I'll see if I can go fishing and find it.
All I remember is that it had 'aging' in the title (I think), and it was about how the extra-magical nature of FR (or any D&D world for that matter) contributed to people - magic-users in particular - living much longer.
I even made a chart, where you would age slower depedning on your level, and how Chosen were the only ones who got that 'last 5%', so that they would be the only ones who were technically immortal.
Anyhow, it is easy to just say that magic helps people live longer, either directly or indirectly. heck, if completely different species from different worlds are able to mate, this is really just a tiny thing by comparison.
1404 DR: Council of Five agrees to invade the Moonshae Isles. Caer Westphal is siezed and Snowdown Isle subjected to Amnian rule
Shouldn't those islands be dedicated to Selune?
Maybe the 'Earthmother' is one of those amalgam deities, combining aspects of Chauntea and Selune.
Edit:
Hmmmm... that just gave me an idea for an article - one that fixes all the weirdness, and also uses 4e lore to help it all work (imagine that - 4e lore fixing old continuity, rather then smashing it to bits).
@Brian - If you need an idea for a 4e article, with lots of tie-backs to older lore, let me know. The Earthmother works out much better as a trapped Primordial (beneath the Moonshaes, of course), then as an avatar of Chauntea.
I don't know where this was said though - and I may be wrong - but I am pretty sure I read it somewhere. Maybe it's just a rumor. Anyone else who knows?
So if the Earthmother=Chautea, then why are they called the Moonshaes?
Shouldn't those islands be dedicated to Selune?
-Because it's just a name? The same way how New England is a part of the United States of America, and not England, that one.
-Maybe 'Moonshae' means something specific in the language of the Ffolk, and again, has nothing to do with the moon, or Selûne.
...yet here we are to view Twit again...
So what happened to #6?
-Because it's just a name? The same way how New England is a part of the United States of America, and not England, that one.
Except that when it was named "New England" it was a colony of England.In the same way that New York was named after the city in the north of England. And New Orleans after the city in France. And New Hampshire after the county in England.
- Maybe 'Moonshae' means something specific in the language of the Ffolk, and again, has nothing to do with the moon, or Selûne.
Except, of course, for the importance of the Moonwells. Or the fact that the full moon nearest the vernal and autumnal equinox is a time of festival.
Could be coincidence. But no reason to think so from the lore as known.
The latest leaning is that the Earthmother is a primal power of the natural world in the same vein as the World Serpent, though she does have loose ties to the fey and the Feywild.
So, when FR2 says, re: the Earthmother: "The goddess of the Moonshaes is an aspect of the benign goddess Chauntea..."
When Faith & Avatars delineates "Earthmother" under aliases for Chauntea, and says, "Chauntea has a special relationship with the people of the Moonshae Isles, a place which she has dedicated a portion of her being, known as Earthmother..."
When Faiths & Pantheons says, "Wealthy landowners and simple farmers alike come to the local cleric of the Earthmother for advice..." and "the people of the Moonshae Isles continue to worship this aspect of the Great Mother..."
What, exactly? They were all wrong? 3 different editions of the game all agree, but it's suddenly changed?
It is possible that with Amn's invasion their policy changed, and they outed the truth to undermine the power of the foreigners.
Of course, as 'truths' go when it comes to faith, either or both readings may be true - or false.
Gomez
What, exactly? They were all wrong? 3 different editions of the game all agree, but it's suddenly changed?
Lol. Suddenly changed? Have you actually read both Moonshae Trilogies?
The Earthmother has always been depicted as a separate entity in the fiction. Until 4E there wasn't a game construct for archfey/primal spirit so it was the "game system" of the past that shoehorned the Earthmother into an aspect of Chauntea.
Finally, we are able to depict the Earthmother as she was always intended.
Finally, we are able to depict the Earthmother as she was always intended.
The Amnian evangelists
are likely to disagree... ... but hey, they need to be back driven into the sea anyways.Lol. Suddenly changed? Have you actually read both Moonshae Trilogies?
The Earthmother has always been depicted as a separate entity in the fiction. Until 4E there wasn't a game construct for archfey/primal spirit so it was the "game system" of the past that shoehorned the Earthmother into an aspect of Chauntea.
Finally, we are able to depict the Earthmother as she was always intended.
If its not depicted that way in the sourcebooks, then it doesn't count as far as I'm concerned... yet another reason to boot the novels out of canon and let those weirdo authors have their bizarre "visions" and interpretations of the Realms. I mean really, how hard would it have been to say she's a seperate entity from Chauntea that's little understood in a planar sense? Not very if you ask me...
In the same way that New York was named after the city in the north of England. And New Orleans after the city in France. And New Hampshire after the county in England.
-And, ultimately, New England remains New England with no affiliation to England.
Except, of course, for the importance of the Moonwells. Or the fact that the full moon nearest the vernal and autumnal equinox is a time of festival.
Could be coincidence. But no reason to think so from the lore as known.
-Which, again, contains the possible prefix 'Moon', which can have a meaning in the language of the Ffolk. Both Evermeet and Evereska contain the word 'Ever', which has a meaning in English, but a different meaning in Elven, and it is the Elven meaning that is used, not the English meaning.
1383 DR: Netherese raze Zhentil Keep and the Citadel of the Raven; Fzoul Chembryl slain; Zhents divorce from Church of Bane.
I was thinking about 1380 DR, myself, but it fits well enough. I can't remember anything saying when ZK made deals with the Phaerimms, but I imagine that the Shadovar acted on that knowledge soon after they found out.
This stuff I really like, the back and forth between fantasy nations shaped by the actions of brilliant strategists making calculated risks. An rising ally in the day could be a fallen foe on the morrow.
Who would have told the incriminating Zhentarim information to the Shade Enclave? Who could have made the Shadelord Thalamount and his act with a two pronged assault on the Zhentarim holdings. Might have been the work of a Moonstar or Ex-Harper agent...
Lol. Suddenly changed? Have you actually read both Moonshae Trilogies?
I have, actually. Albeit, it was about 20 years ago. Haven't really had any call to revisit them.
The Earthmother has always been depicted as a separate entity in the fiction.
I'm not sure how that has any relation to the three editions of Realmslore delineated in the sourcebooks, in which it is stated, in the third person omniscient, that the Earthmother is an aspect of Chauntea.
Until 4E there wasn't a game construct for archfey/primal spirit so it was the "game system" of the past that shoehorned the Earthmother into an aspect of Chauntea.
I'm sorry, what? There was no other solution than to make the Earthmother an aspect of Chauntea? That's your line? There were regional pantheons in Unther and Mulhorand, among others, there were demipowers active almost exclusively in certain regions, and your argument is that the only choice, to fit her into the game, was to make her part of Chauntea? All the great imaginations at work, but that was the only kludge they could come up with?
Finally, we are able to depict the Earthmother as she was always intended.
Uh huh.
I'm not sure how that has any relation to the three editions of Realmslore delineated in the sourcebooks, in which it is stated, in the third person omniscient, that the Earthmother is an aspect of Chauntea.
-Only Third Edition used that type of narrator always. Other Second and First Edition books often used the First Person narrator- especially the Volo's Guide books, for example. Off-hand, I don't have the books in front of me, so I don't recall the the type of format that Faiths and Avatars was written in. I think it was in the third person, though.
-And, ultimately, New England remains New England with no affiliation to England.
Well, actually, there's no "New England," in terms of anything meaningful, anymore than there's a "Mid-Atlantic States," or "Bible Belt."
Of course, back when the area was claimed for England, it was intended as an administrative area.
But then, I suppose, in your mind, New London wasn't named after the English capitol, because it's in Connecticut now? :rolleye2:
-Which, again, contains the possible prefix 'Moon', which can have a meaning in the language of the Ffolk. Both Evermeet and Evereska contain the word 'Ever', which has a meaning in English, but a different meaning in Elven, and it is the Elven meaning that is used, not the English meaning.
It's absolutely possible that you're correct. If anybody runs into Douglas Niles, I suggest asking. All I'm saying is, given the importance of the moon in the setting, it's not outside the realm of possibility to suppose that there might be some meaning there.
-Only Third Edition used that type of narrator always. Other Second and First Edition books often used the First Person narrator- especially the Volo's Guide books, for example. Off-hand, I don't have the books in front of me, so I don't recall the the type of format that Faiths and Avatars was written in. I think it was in the third person, though.
Indeed, they did, on occasion use something other than the 3rd person omniscient.
If you look at the quotes I posted above, (and feel free to examine the source), you'll find that in the cases I listed, it was quite definitive.
I'm sorry, what? There was no other solution than to make the Earthmother an aspect of Chauntea? That's your line? There were regional pantheons in Unther and Mulhorand, among others, there were demipowers active almost exclusively in certain regions, and your argument is that the only choice, to fit her into the game, was to make her part of Chauntea? All the great imaginations at work, but that was the only kludge they could come up with?
I cannot fathom why the original mistake was made. All I can do at this point is correct it. You may disagree with my decision, but it's well informed I assure you.
Between the Moonshae chapter of the FRCG, the Grand History and its Moonshae web enhancement, and a forthcoming Dragon article on Sarifal I don't think it unreasonable to say I've devoted more research hours and word count to developing the Moonshae Isles than any designer since Douglas Niles.
If Impiltur is George Krashos' baby, then the Moonshaes are mine.
If Impiltur is George Krashos' baby, then the Moonshaes are mine.
If this is the case, could you spill the beans on where the lost Moonflower heir might be (if he is/was still alive, anyways)?
If this is the case, could you spill the beans on where the lost Moonflower heir might be (if he is/was still alive, anyways)?
Wow. I wouldn't feel comfortable tackling that one without Elaine's input. I too would like that one answered. Someday.
Wow. I wouldn't feel comfortable tackling that one without Elaine's input. I too would like that one answered. Someday.
Fair enough, now we just need to get a Summon epic writer of all things Elven Ritual and have her pop in here...
:D
1346 DR (Year of the Bloodbird): The sinister god Bhaal seeks to use a corrupted moonwell to send a manifestation known as "the Ravager" to the Moonshaes. It was during this time that the goddess Chauntea noticed the crippled and faltering status of the Earthmother and began to counter Bhaal's schemes for the Isles. Embracing the goddess Chauntea, the Great Druid Robyn Moonsinger uses her new powers to drive Bhaal's avatar back through the darkwell. King Tristan used the Sword of Cymrych Hugh to seal the gate, severing Bhaal's link to the Moonshaes.
Wow. I wouldn't feel comfortable tackling that one without Elaine's input. I too would like that one answered. Someday.
wanna bet its NDAd
Here is the event where Chauntea assumed the Earth moter's role to protect the isles (from Brian's article):
Sure, that's the story now... the problem is that it was a different story back in the day. I don't really blame Brian for it, but it doesn't mesh that well with what came before... I still fail to see how it couldn't have been treated like the way the Yuir gods were, mentioned in name, but not much else, if they were really meant to be seperate entities. The closest it ever came was mentioning they were distinct aspects, but not to the point of being seperate beings.
I don't see a big issue with a breach in 'canon'.
Out of game, it is just a rulebook - sometimes the rules change a bit. I mean, the entire system changed - for all we know Shar is secretely a primordial (I am leanbign towards that, to be honest...). It's annoying, but with small bits like this not unrecoverable. There were bigger changes.
In game, if you wish to reconcile the two 'truths', people in the Realms thought - for a time - that the two were one and the same, due to propaganda of non-Ffolk priests (probably Amnians). Now that turns out to be wrong.
Gomez
My own preference is to say that 4e and the lore changes that came with it are all just a bad case of indigestion for Ao, and that when he wakes up, all will be well and back to normal. ;) :D
It may have changed in some areas, but is it really for the worse? I don't think so. I can't honestly see any lore changes that are 'badwrongfun'.
Can you? Really?
Where has the lore 'gone bad' in 4e FR? Different, in some places... fitting, yes... bad?
It may have changed in some areas, but is it really for the worse? I don't think so. I can't honestly see any lore changes that are 'badwrongfun'.
Can you? Really?
It's opinion Krown. For instance, Mystra dying doesn't bother me. Having NO god with the Magic portfolio does. Dragonborn in the Realms don't bother me, but having two planets merge like a DC/Marvel Crossover event to explain it does.
Syluné and Khelben dying to protect those they loved and/or to bring about a better world doesn't bother me. But killing off NPCs because some fans didn't like them bothers me a whole lot.
Having gone through a '100-year-jump' in the BattleTech timeline a few years ago, I was wary to go through the same thing again here. In both cases, the time-jump has ticked off a lot of older fans. In the case of BattleTech, it caused an offshoot company to produce pre-jump material which, in the end, is now the canon source of material. I'm not saying the same will hold true for the Realms, but I do know that when WotC gave us the time-jump, I stayed firmly rooted in 1375 with plans to take a different, non-Spellplague course.
Again, I'm not saying the lore is 'bad', but I don't like the choices made so it's not getting used by me.
If anyone here read the novels (which is important to my second point as well), they would see that the Moonwells were of paramount importance, and that their power waxed and waned with the phases of the Moon.
Yes... the Moon is VERY important to the Monshaes - it is NOT merely a name. There is also a short-strory about them (the original Moonwell) in one those anthologies - I'll have to re-read that.
Going back to the novels once again (in support of Brian), the source material NEVER agreed with them. I think there was some attempt to correct that in the second series, by saying that Chauntea absorbed the Earthmother at some point (although she may have just been a 'wayward' aspect of her from times past).
If we throw Maztica into the mix it gets even more confusing - that was not only the name of the Meso-American style continent, but also of the Earthmother-like goddess for that region.
I tend to lean toward Gray Richardson's musings on this lore (and I believe Brian does as well). Chauntea was the Cosmic aspect of the earthmother for all of Realmspace - she represents the natural order and the life-giving properties of the Prime Material. On a more local level, individual planetoids and the continents of Toril had seperate 'Earthmothers' (Known as Kunitsu-Kami in the east).
I believe these beings were created near the begining, at some point during the conflict between Shar and Selune. I think both of those deities were originally Primordials, perhaps along with Chauntea and the original Sun-god (BEFORE Aumantor there was another, which could be why we have at least two sharing that position). In fact, I would go so far as to say that the first was a Primordial (now destroyed), and the second was a deity.
What I'm thinking (moving away from Gray's theories) is that Selune sided with the Deities against most of the Primordials, and perhaps even seperated aspects of herself to create 'caretakers' for Toril (and maybe Chauntea did likewise). In fact, Chauntea may even be one of those aspects, albeit a much more powerful one. This 'downgrade' is what left Selune a deity rather then a primordial (by seperating-out her elemental nature), and her final blow to Shar did the same to that primordial (tearing away her elemental darkenss aspect, and thus creating Mystryl - a goddess composed of both Arcane and Umbral energies).
Ergo, the War of Light and Darkness was but one battle in the war between the Gods and Primordials, and at least two Primordials were changed by it (one willingly, the other by accident). Because Shar immediately tried to attack and destroy the new being Mystryl, and Selune tried to protect it, Mystryl sided with Selune and 'hid away' her shadowy nature, to the point she denied the existance of it within herself.
However, she could not get away from it, and even while building her greatest creation - The Weave - part of her own hidden, dark nature seeped-in to the process, and the Shadow-Weave was born... hidden , literally, in the 'shadow' (recesses) of the Weave.
That was the part of Mystryl that was once part of Shar, and through it, down though the millenia, Shar worked to get back her lost power and destroy Mystryl in the process.
Anyhow, I went off on a tangent (just smack me next time), but what I was getting at is that a LOT of cosmic energies were being thrown-about during the 'creation phase' of the Universe, and hundreds, likely even thousands, of minor 'powers' were born of that chaotic magical and elemental malstrom.
These 'shards' of deities and Primordials became many of the Primal powers and demi-powers we know today, and the Moonshaes' Earthmother was merely one of those, who happened to have aspects of both Chauntea and Selune in her persona.
As Brian has stated, the concept of 'Primal Powers' has always existed in FR (and D&D), but it was never nailed-down or given a proper name before.
Where has the lore 'gone bad' in 4e FR? Different, in some places... fitting, yes... bad?
It may have changed in some areas, but is it really for the worse? I don't think so. I can't honestly see any lore changes that are 'badwrongfun'.
Can you? Really?
Ret-cons bother me no end... especially when I can think of several ways to make the changes without blaming it on mechanics and the inaccuracies those can foster. Saying it was always intended to be that way seems a bit... wrong to me. A simple statement, "because I like it more that way, it fits the way I've always envisioned things better" would have sat better with me than this dubious novel-take versus sourcebook take approach. Which is not a slam at Brian, its a slam at everyone who's pulled it with 4e. At least Brian responded with his reasoning, so I have considerably more respect for him over it than I do for others. Its stuff like this that makes my desire for novels to be divorced from canon that much stronger... I'd much prefer the Eberron approach to things.
For me, its not really what's done, so much as how its done. If Bruce Cordell said in an interview that he thought that the 4e Realms was better than previous versions, that he changed stuff because he saw them as corrective of greivous errors made by past designers, and that he didn't give a crap about continuity, I could accept things much more easily. He's in charge of things, it goes his way, screw off if you don't like it I can respect much more than trying to spin the changes as always having been what was intended, seemingly to lend pedigree and respectability to them.
The Earthmother fix I'm introducing isn't a retcon at all. It's restoring continuity, correcting an unfortunate mistake that some designer/editor introduced long ago. Just because a mistake has persisted through three editions of the game doesn't make it right. And it's my belief that the mistake only lasted so long because the Moonshaes have long been ignored by designers.
Please correct me if I'm wrong Stigger, but you seem to be implying that its ok for a sourcebook to contradict novel lore, but not the other way around. Even if the lore described in the sourcebook was introduced in a novel? If so, then obviously I disagree.
I think the problem is the whole "3rd person omniscient narrator" vs. characters in a novel who are inherently not like that themselves. People take the information in sourcebooks much more literally than in novels (though depending sometimes on what suits their argument better in some cases
). This is because it's generally perceived that sourcebooks are writing more "matter of fact" than a novel.Personally, I don't really care what particular way it is even if I do prefer the earthmother to not be a God myself. I imagine if TSR whomever wanted to avoid the Wiccan connotations of this is probably the original reason for it. Nobody after that would probably have seen any reason to change it back unless they felt like it once it was made. Returning to the Devils/Daemons thing, there was a very conscious decision involved with changing them back and it was a lot more obvious than fixing one particular thing done well in the past.
From the 1E Moonshae (1987), by Douglas Niles:
The goddess of the Moonshaes is an aspect of the benign goddess Chauntea (Chawn-TEE-ah), who is worshiped throughout the Realms as the neutral good goddess of agriculture. As she is worshiped in the Moonshaes, however, her aspect is shaped differently than it is in any other part of the Realms.
Where Chauntea is generally worshiped as a goddess of agriculture, the
Earthmother is much more a goddess of nature. Agriculture as an aspect of nature she regards kindly, but agriculture as an attempt to master the land becomes a grave threat to her existence.
In the Original 1E "Gray Box" Forgotten Realms Campaign Set, she is subsumed under Chauntea's entry as just this:
...The Earth Mother of Moonshae may be a guise or aspect of Chauntea.
But it's really in the 1993 FR Boxed Set where she's seen as an almost separate entity:
Earthmother (Quasi-Power)
The Earthmother of the Moonshae Islands is an example of a local deity of great power. She has little influence or recognition outside the Moonshaes, but within that area she reigns supreme as the greater power. Thought of as merely a shard or facet of Chauntea, the Earthmother is more of a well-rounded nature goddess, incorporating both agriculture and wilderness, and devoted to the preservation of the balance. The majority of her priests are druids. Earthmother wields her abilities as a greater power within the Moonshaes, and has no effect beyond this area. She is believed to make the Prime Material Plane her home.
Personally, I've always thought of the Earthmother and Chauntea as being different entities because of their very different interests and abilities, just as I viewed Tempus (greater deity) and Tempos (local deity of certain barbarian north tribes) as being separate entities. I liked the complexity that this lent to the world, as it made Faerun richer and more realistic. The curious thing to me is that in the effort of 4E to meld/merge/minimize the Powers to a few "core necessary deities," you'd think that they would've revealed the Earthmother as "really and truly" an aspect of Chauntea after all. But it's more an more clear that the designers revamped Faerun for themselves and their own story goals and not because the fans really clamored for such changes.
...The Earthmother fix I'm introducing isn't a retcon at all. It's restoring continuity, correcting an unfortunate mistake that some designer/editor introduced long ago. Just because a mistake has persisted through three editions of the game doesn't make it right. And it's my belief that the mistake only lasted so long because the Moonshaes have long been ignored by designers.
So the original 1987 Moonshaes, by Douglas Niles, is incorrect? It pretty clearly states there that the Earthmother is an aspect of Chauntea.
Unless you're saying that the editor of that module mucked up Niles' original?
It was originally written as a stand-alone setting (by some other name) for the UK D&D team, but the project was scraped and the already-written material was adapted and shoe-horned into FR (as so much else was back then).
So yes, originally the 'Earthmother' was most certainly NOT Chauntea, because the Moonshaes (under a different - now forgotten - name) weren't part of the Realms when it was developed, they were on some other world (where Chauntea did not exist).
In editting the module and the novel series, some things were changed, but other things were missed, and thats why things wound-up garbled.
The Earthmother as presented was not supposed to be Chauntea - that was a retcon; but it was a retcon that happened before the material was published.
...The Earthmother as presented was not supposed to be Chauntea - that was a retcon; but it was a retcon that happened before the material was published.
Technically, for something to be retconned, it has to have seen print first. This wasn't a retcon, it was a pre-publication choice.
Don't get me wrong, I didn't like the whole Earthmother = Chauntea thing, it was too simplistic. Much like what 4E has done to "simplify" the current gods into a "pantheon." But what you're saying isn't actually a retcon, it was a choice.
The 4E change to have the Earthmother as a separate entity, that's technically a retcon. You can't "restore continuity" when it wasn't originally published that way. Just sayin.
Basically, the novels were already written, and in them the earthmother was not Chauntea. The module, on the other hand, was changed so that the earthmother became Chauntea to fit better in the Realms. The novels should have been similarly changed, but weren't, and thats why its all so confusing.
Its been a long time since I read those, but IIRC, the second series tried to mend some of that (making them at first seperate entities, and then merging them... I think). I think all that second series did was muddy the waters even further, and with each edition her 'situation' becomes more muddled. They should have admitted their mistake back at the beginning, when that first module and series disagreed with each other, but they didn't, and instead tried to fix the mistake in-game (I would have preferred for them to just 'come-clean' and make a decision one way or the other, instead of merging them IG).
However, my "all things are connected" style of Cosmology allows for me to ignore any inconsistencies, because at one point everything was part of a greater whole, and 'things' have been shearing-off ever since the beginning.
For a canon example to back me up, all I need look at are the 'Scaley Gods'. They have been breaking apart, dying, fighting, merging, and re-awaking over and over, to the point where none of the scaley races is even sure who is an aspect of who anymore.
As it should be.. the Scaleyfolk are the only ones who got it right. :D
Please correct me if I'm wrong Stigger, but you seem to be implying that its ok for a sourcebook to contradict novel lore, but not the other way around. Even if the lore described in the sourcebook was introduced in a novel? If so, then obviously I disagree.
The Earthmother fix I'm introducing isn't a retcon at all. It's restoring continuity, correcting an unfortunate mistake that some designer/editor introduced long ago. Just because a mistake has persisted through three editions of the game doesn't make it right. And it's my belief that the mistake only lasted so long because the Moonshaes have long been ignored by designers.
In a word, yes, I do think its okay in most respects. I approach the Realms as a gamer, first and foremost, and for that, the novels are flavor, but nothing else other than ideas to perhaps be plucked from, and perhaps a shared history to be drawn from. They are not, however, anything other than a version of events, while the sourcebooks are what actually happened, at least when written in a 3rd person omniscient.
To be perfectly honest, it bothered me a lot less when the books were written in the 1st person narrative format of previous editions, which I greatly preferred, because less was pinned down and it allowed for a feeling of more freedom and personal interpretation.
As to the Moonshae's and the Earthmother's portrayal, when it comes down to it, I don't use that region and never really have in anything but an indirect way, so the lore of it doesn't actually bother me one way or another. What does bother me is saying something that's lasted for pretty much the entire life of the product has been a mistake... were it phrased in such a way as to allow for earlier versions to still be true, I'd have less issue. Maybe couching it in terms of what the locals believe, what the mainland believes, and not answering the question either way would have been a better approach.
So the original 1987 Moonshaes, by Douglas Niles, is incorrect? It pretty clearly states there that the Earthmother is an aspect of Chauntea. Unless you're saying that the editor of that module mucked up Niles' original?
The 4E change to have the Earthmother as a separate entity, that's technically a retcon. You can't "restore continuity" when it wasn't originally published that way. Just sayin.
Darkwalker on Moonshae was published well before FR2: The Moonshaes. In fact, the novel predates even the 1E campaign setting. Since FR2 contradicts the novel in which it’s based on, it was FR2 which introduced the first retcon. Since every Moonshae novel published after FR2 is consistent in describing Chauntea as a distinct entity from the Earthmother I can only assume that some editor/designer other than Douglas Niles added that line to the text.
Again, you guys need to read the novels to see where I'm coming from. The Earthmother apparently dies in the first trilogy, allowing Chauntea to step in and aid Robyn Kendrick in her fight against Bhaal. Then decades later in the second trilogy, the Earthmother sends a prophet to the isles to herald her return. Robyn abandons the teachings of Chauntea and returns to the druidic traditions of the newly returned Earthmother (who, it turns out was just recuperating for a time). Douglas Niles clearly saw them as separate individuals and the early game designers simply chose to ignore it.
1428 DR: The Seven Burghers of Harrowdale announce a formal alliance with Myth Drannor and rename the city New Velar
What happened in the novels DOES NOT jibe with what is in the module. The novels were already finished, and they just went back in and added a few 'realms bits' to make them FR-relevant. They didn't want a re-write, so thats why we eneded-up with the confusion. If anything, the module should be considered the lore after the novels are complete, because at that point Chauntea was indeed acting as the earthmother.
In a word, yes, I do think its okay in most respects. I approach the Realms as a gamer, first and foremost, and for that, the novels are flavor, but nothing else...
You had me at 'Hello'... errr... I mean 'Gamer'.
New twit;
:P
...Douglas Niles clearly saw them as separate individuals and the early game designers simply chose to ignore it.
Ah, I see.
Ed Greenwood clearly saw each local deity as separate entities as well, except for a few. Then come along a passel of new designers who merge and/or destroy a large number of deities for 4E, because they chose to ignore the original author and the fans who loved the complexity.
When does "restoration of continuity" happen for those of us who completely hate what these new designers did in 4E?
If you do plan to use it, I'm sure you're fully capable of ignoring what you dislike... hmm... nm.
Regardless, I highly doubt they are going to change anything about 4e FR in the near future... if ever.
Whenever you actually want to use 4e FR and change it how you see fit. If you don't plan to use it, then there is no point in worrying about it, yes?
If you do plan to use it, I'm sure you're fully capable of ignoring what you dislike... hmm... nm.
Regardless, I highly doubt they are going to change anything about 4e FR in the near future... if ever.
Hey, they said at the outset of 4E that they "listened to all the complaints and made changes." So I'm just, you know, letting them know what I'd like for 5E: a complete redaction of all things 4E, courtesy of a massive time travel RSE that erases this new "lore".
Bring Mystra back! It was all a "bad timeline"!
Ed Greenwood clearly saw each local deity as separate entities as well, except for a few. Then come along a passel of new designers who merge and/or destroy a large number of deities for 4E, because they chose to ignore the original author and the fans who loved the complexity.
When does "restoration of continuity" happen for those of us who completely hate what these new designers did in 4E?
Hey man, I'm with you on this one. I loved the realms just the way they were. Unfortunately I was invited late to the 4E party and had no opportunity to dissuade the other designers from make sweeping changes to the setting. All I can do now is work from the inside to smooth out the rough edges and fill in some lore gaps.
Hey man, I'm with you on this one. I loved the realms just the way they were. Unfortunately I was invited late to the 4E party and had no opportunity to dissuade the other designers from make sweeping changes to the setting. All I can do now is work from the inside to smooth out the rough edges and fill in some lore gaps.
While I think it is awesome to have you on board, I highly doubt some people here will appreciate what you're trying to do for 4e FR.
1381 DR: Lord Protector Daoran initiates the restoration of Valjevo Castle and reconstruction of Phlan's city walls.
Hey man, I'm with you on this one. I loved the realms just the way they were. Unfortunately I was invited late to the 4E party and had no opportunity to dissuade the other designers from make sweeping changes to the setting. All I can do now is work from the inside to smooth out the rough edges and fill in some lore gaps.
Keep fighting the good fight. :fight!:
I applaud his efforts on our part.
Ah, I see.
Ed Greenwood clearly saw each local deity as separate entities as well, except for a few. Then come along a passel of new designers who merge and/or destroy a large number of deities for 4E, because they chose to ignore the original author and the fans who loved the complexity.
When does "restoration of continuity" happen for those of us who completely hate what these new designers did in 4E?
Wow...
I haven't seen someone so elequently flip a thread into an anti-4e debate in months. I feel nostalgic. :D
On-Topic
Not to to dismiss Brian in anyway, but I really wish they would bring George Krashos onboard for a lot of the 3e to 4e gap. If anyone could do it justice, I think George could, and I think Brian would agree with me on that.
That man makes my own knowlegde look paltry by comparison... he's got 'Realms' in his blood...
It's not human... :P
Hey man, I'm with you on this one. I loved the realms just the way they were.
Okay, I love you for saying that, and I'm sorry if I came off as a crank. I'm just really sad about what was done.Unfortunately I was invited late to the 4E party and had no opportunity to dissuade the other designers from make sweeping changes to the setting. All I can do now is work from the inside to smooth out the rough edges and fill in some lore gaps.
Be our champion. Your support would be legion. Just a lil' time travel story to unravel all this stuff.
In all seriousness, though, it would be nice to see a module, or something brief, that is part of canon(!) where players could "go back" and prevent what has happened. If such a thing were available and it became a popular item, it would, I think, give designers a way to gauge fan support (or dislike) for the changes better than simple sales. A sort of litmus test.
Wow...
I haven't seen someone so elequently flip a thread into an anti-4e debate in months. I feel nostalgic. :D
Thank you, thank you! I thought it was pretty snappy too.
Bring Mystra back!
No thanks.
It was all a "bad timeline"!
It's a better one from my point of view, though it is all stemming from the God I hate most in all FR; Shar. Also, timeline shenannigans are an even worse kind of plot since you have the Gods acting like high level NPC idiots plots that came into being from the Time of Troubles. It means that absolutely nothing is relevant.
If they were going to do that, reset the timeline the WHOLE way back to before the Time of Troubles. Then we could remove so much crap and stupidity it would be worth it. Plus I would get Gods back that I actually like such as Bhaal and Myrkul, but without them going down a giant idiot plot during the ToT (The fake Tablets of Fate, which was just a terrible dues ex machina, quite literally, plot device).
bring back Mystryl the true goddess of magic, either that or elevate Elminster, as Mr. Raven head staff guy well must die!!!
1399 DR (Year of the Fallen Friends): Caladnei, Mage Royal of Cormyr, finally succumbs to years-long struggle with Spellplague; succeeded by Laspeera Inthré
Latecomer to the thread, sorry. Not long back from Distant Parts...
The above ressurected in me the desire for one last pre-spellplague-to-spellplague-transition novel. I had really been hoping for a novel that would come along, resolve (at least some of) the (character) story lines that comprise this era and lay some ground work for the way things would be after the Jump. The tidbit above could have formed the basis for that novel, and I would probably have jumped at the chance to read it. Not least because `Speera has always been one of my very favourite Cormyreans (apart from Queen Fee).
One may be able to assume, however, that since BRJ is a careful and professional gentleman of the highest degree, he wouldn:t be posting such a tidbit if someone was writing a novel about it that he knew about, canon or not.
Oh well.
Thanks for taking the time to produce this timeline, Brian, I certainly makes interesting reading.
If they were going to do that, reset the timeline the WHOLE way back to before the Time of Troubles. Then we could remove so much crap and stupidity it would be worth it. Plus I would get Gods back that I actually like such as Bhaal and Myrkul, but without them going down a giant idiot plot during the ToT (The fake Tablets of Fate, which was just a terrible dues ex machina, quite literally, plot device).
I'd have to agree with this sentiment... though I would miss Kelemvor just a little, as he fits more my idea of what a Death god should be, on a personal level. Makes for a crap bad guy though...
...If they were going to do that, reset the timeline the WHOLE way back to before the Time of Troubles. Then we could remove so much crap and stupidity it would be worth it. Plus I would get Gods back that I actually like such as Bhaal and Myrkul, but without them going down a giant idiot plot during the ToT (The fake Tablets of Fate, which was just a terrible dues ex machina, quite literally, plot device).
I agree, actually. This would be the best re-set.
New twit;
1395 DR: Plaguebringer's Blight - Sickness and pestilence spreads throughout the North, unleashed by the Putrescent Anathema.
She appears in DALE1-4 the Lady in Flames, and I had to expand what little there was in the FRCG (as there isn't anything - not even race). I don't know what I can post on the boards, as it isn't released yet and R&D migth change stuff, but I did describe her as an 'elder' woman in one of the boxed texts. I didn't give an actual age, though with 'elder' I meant to indicate late 40s or early 50s (as I picture late twentes/early thirties is a better age to become lord-mayor).
I, personally, wouldn't consider late 40s or early 50s to be "elderly." It seems to me like that's more middle-aged.
Here's a good one, now we have the date for when the Shades wasted ZK...
"1383 DR: Netherese raze Zhentil Keep and the Citadel of the Raven; Fzoul Chembryl slain; Zhents divorce from Church of Bane."
Hope they got a good settlement. Or was there a prenup involved?:P
A re-set that I highly doubt will ever happen...
Never say never, especially when it comes to fantasy fiction. Likely or unlikely, we have to let the designers know exactly what we want. They may not make changes, but given that Brian here may see his timeline added to official canon (even though it isn't now, it may be), it's imperative to let designers know what we would like to see.
Show
another version of Eberron.
I, personally, wouldn't consider late 40s or early 50s to be "elderly." It seems to me like that's more middle-aged.
I didn't say 'elderly', I said 'elder', which is a bit more ambiguous, and can (I think) apply to the age I imagined she had (as well as her being the village leader).
Gomez
1407 DR: Unexpected death of High Queen Alicia Kendrick. Carrathal loyalists ignite uprisings in Caer Corwell and Caer Callidyrr
I'm wondering if he's going for a 'Northern Ireland' type of situation there within the Moonsahes (which fits the Celtic theme of the place, not to mention all the Earthmother vs Chauntea stuff).
Not to sure what you mean by "Northern Ireland" (I live in Belfast), 4E Moonshaes dosn't really resemble Ireland at all.
The Earthmother Vs Chauntea stuff seems to be occuring more on these boards than in the Moonshaes.
Moonshaes, barring the odd name and myth (and Moray to a certain extent) has always resembled Wales, mixed with the Kingdom of Mann and the Isles, over Ireland.
If Wales had been partly settled by the norse, survived until about 1200 without norman contact, it would pretty much resemble the moonshaes. Now in 4E were finally getting the "norman" (Amn) colonisation.
Of course, if it turns out the Amnish were invited into Snowdon by a king/prince who lost a civil war that would be pretty similar to Ireland
.If you look at the Moonshaes as all of Great Britain, then you have your Celts, Vikings, Normans, etc.. all going on there.
Too bad the 'Highlanders' are all in Erlkazar. :P
The Earthmother Vs Chauntea stuff seems to be occuring more on these boards than in the Moonshaes.
snort! Ask what one of Elminsters Farts would smell like, and watch the flames start a flying. :P Or should I ressurect the Elminster Undies thread.
1400 DR (Year of Lost Ships): Krehlan "Blackstaff" Arunsun, son of Khelben Arunsun and Laeral Silverhand, assumes the role of Archmage of Waterdeep
(though not the current blackstaff.)
Then we could have a greystaff, purplestaff, bluestaff, greenstaff, brownstaff (ewwwww....), ect, ect....
And Krehlan? Not a name I would have gone with, but if it makes them happy...
And Krehlan? Not a name I would have gone with, but if it makes them happy...
Yeah, the name doesn't float my boat either.
Although, I'd like to point out--not to you in particular, Stigger--that it was already known that Krehlan (son of Khelben) would become a Blackstaff as per Blackstaff Tower. This new tweet gives us the year that happened.
Then we could have a greystaff, purplestaff, bluestaff, greenstaff, brownstaff (ewwwww....), ect, ect....
I call dibs on indigo. :D
"Hello. My name is Indigostaff Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."
-Cerulean.
What is it with you and your fixation on that color?
What is it with you and your fixation on that color?
Pool of Radiance (the novel) tie in? Or just because it's an awesome name for a shade of blue.
1393 DR: Sembian investors begin buying up land in the southern Dales. King Azoun issues a formal objection to the Dales Council
1393 DR (Year of the Ring): Sembian investors begin buying up land in the southern Dales. Concerned, Azoun V issues a formal objection to the Dale's Council in Archendale but the King's emissary is rebuffed
(Slightly adapted tweet - this event already got covered here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080227a )
Yeah, I'm mainly being jokingly cynical, although what I'm saying (Cormyr politely trying to annex the Dalelands) does have grounding in previous Realmslore.
*snort* Azoun objected because he wants those lands to be a protectorate of Cormyr.
Yeah, I'm mainly being jokingly cynical, although what I'm saying (Cormyr politely trying to annex the Dalelands) does have grounding in previous Realmslore.
Well, you're spot on here (note, it didn't hurt me to agree with you ;) ). The FRCG says Cormyr has become, unwillingly of course, Imperial toward it's neighbors... hence why they have expanded to include a few Dales, some of Sembia and a lot of the southern Dragon Coast.
As does Sembia's attempts... the Dales do seem to be the Poland of the Realms in a lot of respects, poor bastards.
LOL, well to be fair, Dalesfolk can fight off most of it...
[...]well to be fair, Dalesfolk can fight off most of it...
Indeed. A bit off-topic, but I really liked the following anecdote from the Hooded One (So Saith Ed, part 1, page 48):
[...]And I've sat at that gaming table weeping like a baby when we found friends (NPCs) slain, or arrived too late to rescue someone. And been bright-eyed with pride as John Hunter, playing Florin defending a bridge, faced down certain death when given a chance to flee with the calm words, "I gave my word, and my word is my bond, my honour; my life. If I break my word, I am nothing. So here I stand, one blade against all your host. Come at me, Zhent, and we'll see what blood-price it costs you to sweep aside . . . a mere nothing."
Florin had no hope of rescue, and knew he was going to die -- but he fought like a whirlwind, and bought his life dearly, taking down over forty Zhentilar before the others forced their way across the bridge. By then, the farmwives of that southern end of Shadowdale had gathered all their bows, sent word for reinforcements, blocked the road with a litter of overturned loaded haywagons --- and Storm Silverhand was running alone down the road to meet them, to do the same thing Florin had.
In the end, not a Zhent of that seventy-strong warband left the dale alive. Florin was brought back from the dead, of course, but that doesn't diminish John's play that night one whit.
1376 DR (Year of the Bent Blade): The High One charges his pupil Flamsterd with retrieving Halaster's soul-shards, scattered throughout Toril and beyond
If so, they would make great batteries for a Spelljamming artifurnace. :D
It would also make tracking those suckers all down a friggin' nightmare (as it should be).
Would Halaster's soul-shards be considered artifacts?
-I would say no. Soul "pieces" would be less valuable, I guess, than "whole" souls, just because you're getting less. If you can reunite those pieces, though, then you'd get a soul, of which a lot of things use as "power".
-You gave me an interesting idea for my D&D campaign, if I pick it back up, though. In my game, I do have a sentient Spelljammer hull that the PCs utilize, so...
Well, you're spot on here (note, it didn't hurt me to agree with you ;) ).
Yes, yes, duly noted.;)
The FRCG says Cormyr has become, unwillingly of course, Imperial toward it's neighbors...
Unwillingly, yes, that's what they all say.;)
Indeed. A bit off-topic, but I really liked the following anecdote from the Hooded One (So Saith Ed, part 1, page 48):[...]And I've sat at that gaming table weeping like a baby when we found friends (NPCs) slain, or arrived too late to rescue someone. And been bright-eyed with pride as John Hunter, playing Florin defending a bridge, faced down certain death when given a chance to flee with the calm words, "I gave my word, and my word is my bond, my honour; my life. If I break my word, I am nothing. So here I stand, one blade against all your host. Come at me, Zhent, and we'll see what blood-price it costs you to sweep aside . . . a mere nothing."
Florin had no hope of rescue, and knew he was going to die -- but he fought like a whirlwind, and bought his life dearly, taking down over forty Zhentilar before the others forced their way across the bridge. By then, the farmwives of that southern end of Shadowdale had gathered all their bows, sent word for reinforcements, blocked the road with a litter of overturned loaded haywagons --- and Storm Silverhand was running alone down the road to meet them, to do the same thing Florin had.
In the end, not a Zhent of that seventy-strong warband left the dale alive. Florin was brought back from the dead, of course, but that doesn't diminish John's play that night one whit.
Still off topic:
The thing about this is, I'm not sure there's very much heroic about it. The thing is, in D&D there's a lot of ways to bring someone back to life. Once you reach certain levels it's pretty much the case that character's get brought back from the dead unless the player doesn't want that. And in this particular case, the fact that "Florin was brought back from the dead, of course" pretty much says to me that there isn't really a heroic choice involved. Something I've observed when playing D&D in every edition is that players are much more likely to engage in reckless heroism when they know that being killed represents an opportunity to order a take-away meal until you get raised rather than the end for a character you've played for months or years.
Granted, yes, most players will want to bring a character back. But I know of a few that died in such a way that their 'purpose' was complete in life and did not return. Also, there's the cost of coming back as well... if you're broke, it's hard to hire that priest to resurrect your compatriot.
Or if they were killed in such a way as to prevent coming back.
It's all how the DM plays it. If he makes it feel easy to come back from the dead, it definitely lessens the harshness of dying. But if he plays it that there's a chance you won't be coming back...
Just because the player knows that their char is likely to be raised, doesn't mean that the PC is... it is still a heroic act as far as the PC is concerned.
It depends on how you roleplay, of course. Most of my PCs are heroic (though some of them don't know that they are...)
I.e. my tiefling still thinks of herself as a opportunistic liar who only does things to get better of it. when she threw herself in front of a prisoner to prevent him getting killed (and got hit instead), she rationalized afterwards that it was a calculated risk - get hurt a bit to gain a few good graces with Sune. Her familiar, however, reasoned that she couldn't have known that she woudl only suffer superficial harm, and that she didn't even have time to think of it: hence, her act was, in truth, unselfish, and she actually wanted to protect the prisoner.
Now, as a player, I know the hit would only cost my PC a healing surge (as did the other player, who happily wacked my PC to entertainment of the others). But that doesn't mean that the character wasn't being heroic (or stupid, but those two are often synonyms...).
Gomez
Ouch.
From what I've read about Ed's playgroup, they are very much roleplayers, with Ed more of a TM(tale master) than a DM. His players seem to care more about what their characters are going through than about rules and dicerolls or how mechanics transform every heroic sacrifice into a mere boo-boo.
Besides, my post was to show that the Dalesfolk aren't afraid to face down even a warband of professional warriors.
It's always a bad idea to go against a people who learn to use a bow almost from the moment they're strong enough to pull back the bowstring...;)
I'd have to agree that it largely depends on the attitude of the player and DM more than anything else. Case in point, my wife hates the idea of resurrection and raising, and reasons that no one in their right mind would leave the busom of their deity without a damned good reason... which has pretty much become the group's default way of thinking about death for characters... hence, they almost never even attempt it, even when they probably should. Another case of YMMV really.
So the entire group has decided to listen to your wife?
Smart man... getting them mad just leads to... me.
On the serious side, I agree with her. The idea, if your are faithful, is that being with your god is THE reward. Would you give back your millions for a chance to play Lotto again?
I am not opposed to characters (or NPCs) coming back to life after being killed. What I am opposed to is having it happen due to player mistakes, miscalculations, errors, whatever. Being an adventurer is supposed to be dangerous and deadly. Otherwise, everyone would want to be one as it sure as hell pays better than virtually any other job.
IMO, resurrections and the like are acts of divine intervention, something not possible for their priests to do. And such interventions are ultra super rare, up to the DM to determine. I have no problem providing a true resurrection to a player (at no cost... or if there is a cost it is in the form of some type of quest) if they die in some spectacularly awesome way that gets a deities attention.
The key, I believe, is to take such a decision away from the players. It should only happen if it benefits the story, and keep it so that it is a rare and a once-in-a-lifetime type of event. To use the scenario given above, I don't think I would have allowed the player's character to be raised. He took a calculated risk and knew what he was doing. He died to defend the Dale. Let him be remembered as a hero, let a statue be erected in his memory and honor. Let bards sing his tale. To bring him back cheapens his sacrifice, and it becomes even further cheapened by the fact that the group seemed to expect it to happen.
;)
1408 DR (Year of the Solitary Cloister): Lionel Carrathal claims the throne of Corwell in challenge to newly ascended High Queen Feithline Kendrick of Callidyrr
Trouble in the Moonshaes...
Thanks BTW. :D
1386 DR (Year of the Halflings' Lament): The shallow Gulph of Luiren is formed when the hin nation is swallowed up by the Great Sea.
This year we probably could have guessed.
The magically-irradiated waters of the tsunami (coming out of Halruaa) altered many Hin - while many were magically 'charged' and enlarged by the chaotic flow of energies, othes were spellscarrred, and some were turned into things much, MUCH worse...
"Gullum... GOLLUM..."
The Swamplings cometh....
So I'm the twit giving you the following tweet?
Yes and dont you forget it! :D
Poor little hin.
:P
At epic levels in 4E certain epic destinies (like Death Walker) mean characters don't stay dead anyway though. But Epic in 4E is bananas with character death being rather expected due to how dangerous it is.
At epic levels in 4E certain epic destinies (like Death Walker) mean characters don't stay dead anyway though. But Epic in 4E is bananas with character death being rather expected due to how dangerous it is.
Which is why, when I came to 4E after playing a campain of Dirk Hairlessly (sorry,Dark Heresy) the flexibility of life and death were a surprise to me. In DH, if you are dead you are usually very dead, anyone who has seen the critical damage tables for DH will know what I mean, and so I was seriously gun-shy for a while even though I didn`t need to be. For that reason, I am fairly sure that I don`t like the idea of expected ressurection... fortuitous ressurection? Now I like that, but to expect it does feel like it would tend to cheapen your actions a little.
??? DR (Year Unknown): Stormstar Requiem: While the Spellplague rages, Talos leads the Gods of Fury in a surprise assault against Arvandor.
No year given, but I assume it was in the 1370's or 1380's. (At least he wasn't called Gruumsh yet)
(and yeah... Umberlee swngs both ways...) :P
(and yeah... Umberlee swngs both ways...) :P
Don't they all?
1409 DR (Year of True Omens): Refusing to swear allegiance to the unlawful High King, Carrathal orders hanging of Lord Aesun Koart in Corwell Square
It now contaisn all published post-spellplague (and a few pre-spellplague) events i am aware.
I added color codes so it is easier to see what sources items are from.
If people have other events, let me know (I 'll need the source though) and I'll add it.
1464 DR (Year of the Six-Armed Elf): The Waterdhavian archmage Ashemmon (formerly of Rhymanthiin) dies, passing the mantle of Blackstaff to Samark Dhanzscul
Blackstaff Tower', 243, BRJ
And since I am adding RPGA sources:
1478 DR (Year of the Dark Circle): Shadow creatures start appearing at random places in eastern Cormanthor DALE1-2
I merged the information from another thread in this thread.
It now contaisn all published post-spellplague (and a few pre-spellplague) events i am aware.
I added color codes so it is easier to see what sources items are from.
If people have other events, let me know (I 'll need the source though) and I'll add it.
Excellent, and thanks - the color coding and referencing will make this extremely useful.
:embarrass
:D
Thats a picture of Drizzt performing the normal Demonic courting rituals. :D
:P DMC (DrizzitManChild)
Thats some serious slin'N'dice action goin' on there!
She should go buzzsaw on his Mary Sue backside. :P
Drizzt 'Jumped the Shark' long ago.
He's just like Fonzie. :D
Right after I posted that I had an idea for an interesting art-piece, but unfortunately I am nowhere near a good-enough artist to actualy do it.
I was picturing Drizzt, looking pretty much like himself (with swords sheathed), sitting on a motorcycle with a leather jacket, and his white hair slicked back and a butt hangin' from the corner of his mouth.
Drizzt as James Dean.
That would be so Kitsch it would actually be cool. :D
If I had the money, I'd commision Todd Lockwood to do that for me.
Either way, you get my drift.
I think WotC should commision such a piece and hand-out posters of that at Gencon - it is so full of win!
Or Boulevard of Broken Dreams (My all-time favorite painting), but done with Khelben, Alustriel, Bruennor, and Wulfgar (making sure to pick 'deaders' in 4e).
Could make an interesting (and collectible) series - redo a masterpiece each year with FR characters.
;)
Do you want one from me?
Gomez
;)
:D
;)
No tweets for the past days. Brian probably is a bit busy.
Do you want one from me?
Gomez
Yes please. :D Some of us can’t play rpga or don’t want to play or we play but can’t cover everything. Of course people need to realize your RPGA timeline posts are cannon while Brains post are not considered cannon…yet. Also your timeline would help us Realm Sages who cover all editions/eras immensely.
1411 DR (Year of the Wrathful Vizier): Crown Princess Cymidei Carrathal leads massacre of all fey dwelling within Deachtere Wood southeast of Cantrev Dynnatt. BRJ
I'll look into a RPGA event later today. There are a few I can add but they are very local events.
1412 DR: War erupts in the Moonshaes as High Lady Ordalf of Sarifal declares all non-fey settlers be driven from Gwynneth Isle
These events took place simultanuously at the start of the Spellplague:
1385 DR (Year of Blue Fire): The temple of Mystra in Harrowdale is destroyed when all the temple wards go haywire simultaneously, killing head priestess Llewan Aspenhold and most of her clergy. DALE1-1 The Prospect
The Fall of Stars in Harrowdale is shrouded in a halo of blue flames for a full day, but otherwise seems untouched.DALE1-1 The Prospect
Blackstaves
1374 DR Tsarra ‘Autumfire’ Chaadren takes up the mantel of the Blackstaff, but hides under illusions of Khelben Arunsun. (pg.226)
Xxxx DR The first outbreak of the Spellplague is held at bay by Tsarra Blackstaff Chaadren. (pg.226)
Xxxx DR The second outbreak of the Spellplage in Waterdeep resurges from Undermountain and forces Tsarra to drop her disguise as Khelben Blackstaff.
(pg.226)
The 2 Retributive Years(xxxx & xxxx DR): The revelation of Khelben’s death draws his enemies to Waterdeep, but all are soundly defeated by Tsarra. (pg.226)
1399 DR Tsarra Blackstaff Chaadren, her heir and many of the Tel’Teukiira die fighting a coven of vampire-wizards of the Stump Bog. Kyriani Agrivar risks her sanity by bearing the Staff and the powers of the Blackstaff back to Waterdeep. (pg.247)
1399 DR Kyriani Agrivar becomes Blackstaff. To acknowledge her legitimacy as the city’s archmage, she proclaims it from atop Blackstzaff Tower, with Open Lord Caladorn at her side. This form of proclamation of the inheritance to the titel of Blackstaff becomes tradition. (pg. ? & 258)
1400 DR Krehlan Arunsun becomes Blackstaff (pg258)
1424 DR Chartham Dellenvol kills Krehlan ‘Blackstaff’Arunsun (pg.?)
(Ches) Ashemmon of Rymanthiin becomes Blackstaff (pg.258)
1464 DR Samark Dhanzscul becomes Blackstaff (pg.?)
1479 DR Vajra Safahr becomes Blackstaff
New BRJ event:
1411 DR (Year of the Wrathful Vizier): Crown Princess Cymidei Carrathal leads massacre of all fey dwelling within Deachtere Wood southeast of Cantrev Dynnatt. BRJ
Did Lionel Carrathal actually wind up becoming the new (lawful) High King, then?
Gomez
1388 DR: Shar, in a fit brought on by divine indigestion after having devoured yet another deity accidentally succeeds in unmaking the world to a limited degree, and temporally resets Faerun to 1357 DR unintentionally...
:D
Is it a joke or real thing?
Is it a joke or real thing?
-A joke.
Cool Blackstaff bits though.
Is it a joke or real thing?
For some of us, it's the real thing.
WotC won't comment, however, so it's not canon. :D
Once you pay for the books, they are yours, and NO-ONE can tell you what to use, and what you can't. If you don't like the official take on things, use your own, or someone elses, or play in some other period, or on some 'alternate Toril'.
It's all good... just have fun. Thats what games are all about.
1412 DR (Year of the Dauntless Dwarves): High Queen Feithline Kendrick orders a flotilla of swift carracks to Kingsbay to succor Ffolk evacuating Gwynneth. BRJ
Feithline’s armada, led by Admiral Felim Voel, are victorious over Amnian warships in the epic Sea Battle of Mog Goidel BRJ
Now there's a ruler who truly believes in loving her subjects. :D
Queen Feithline succors Ffolk...
Now there's a ruler who truly believes in loving her subjects. :D
OK, that was naughty...
1413 DR (Year of Sunken Vessels): Lionel Carrathal flees as Caer Corwell is overrun by fey. Leviathan sends the king's vessel to the bottom of Corwell Firth BRJ
Sprites?
Pixies?
Dryads?
Eladrin?
Le-Shay?
I'd like to see some descriptions of these "fey armies".
What fey are acting so aggressive then?
Sprites?
Pixies?
Dryads?
Eladrin?
Le-Shay?
I'd like to see some descriptions of these "fey armies".
probably eladrin, I imagine them similar to Melniboneans in attitude
I never noticed that before...
Melniboné... LéShay... methinks the design team is scrambling for ideas, once again.
On the othe hand, in my homebrew, I named my Melnibonéan knock-offs Maeladrin... so I guess it all comes full-circle.
1443 DR (Year of Silver Bell Tolling): Sarifal and Imaskar exchange ambassadors, reaffirming their millennia old alliance. Embassies are established in each nation BRJ
Sarifal and Imaskar? Aren't they on opposite sides of Faerun?
I used some of Imryrr for one elven realm where Chondath would be, but also from many other sources, never 100 % complete knock-offs
other than that I imagine fey armies as forest and wilds coming alive, mortals never knowing what hit them, cursed and pranked to death, fey only be stopped when bored or offered with peculiar gifts
I base a lot of my stuff on the WH material - that setting is great (its very unfortunate that GW was one of the few companies that did NOT jump-on the D20 bandwagon with their RPG rules). My own Maeladrin are a cross between the Dark Elves of WH and the Melnibonéans.
I have that group - the 'Dark Elves' - living on an island in an ancient (and fallen) decadent empire (copy, much?), the Wood Elves living in a vast Forest very similar to Athel Loren (or ancient Cormanthyr), and a scarey, elusive group of white-skinned ones that appear to have 'devolved' into something akin to a cross between Elves, Dwarves, Gollum, and Morlocks (with a Gith-like emaciatied look to them).
Hopefuly I'll someday complete my Homdbrew project and create my own site (as I have been planning for quite some time now).
Sarifal and Imaskar? Aren't they on opposite sides of Faerun?
Historically, Imaskar had some sort of 'arrangement' with the Le'Shay in the distant past (as per that fresco depicted in Darkvision).
You are talking about a human group that specialized in translocative magics, and a non-human one that specializes in the use of the Feywild as a transitive plane. In other words - distance does not matter a wit to those two.
The realm where is Chondath, Laerdhron, is very inspired by medieval Venice in terms of trade (high magic), political scheming, naval power (a bit Melnibonéan influence here), secret councils, agencies and noble conspiracies. There is an Eberron influence in there, Thuranni house of spies and informers, Lyrandrar mercantile navy of arcane grown ships (drugged slaves), and ancestral worship, immortal heroes, very traditional (Melnibonéan way). But, they are imperialists and exploiters, they don't hide on a far away island. There are inspirations from other works of fantasy (e.g. Erikson's Tiste races, etc.), it would take long.
for other types of elves, there are the classical goody Evermeet/Elvandar/.../
and Athel Loren, and Aerenal
and really otherworldly, unfathomable to mortals, like in Vancian novels fey cultures, or even Pratchett's
in all these nearly ten years of playing I could never write down the homebrew, hundreds of notes, and it always changes, I started once the timeline, it's a planar world (kinda Amber-like), at 33 billion years ago, then I gave up
My last world, I think, was more similar to yours, in that I used the Realms for a basis, and just shifted stuff around.
My new one is still in the conceptual phase, and is becoming more of a mental excercise then anything I've attempted before (applying logic to cultural interaction, weather, terrain, oceanic currents, lunar phases and their effects on the tides, ect, ect...).
I'm trying to come-up with something different for the local cosmology (I had four moons, but I'm down to two), and I'm now toying with the idea of a binary system, wherein the second star is 'dead', and it has major repercussions on the setting every few centuries...
Apologies to BRJ/Gomeztoo... I just realized we are off on a tangent here... :embarrass
Dryads?
Have you seen Dryads? They would be the equivalent of most armies heavy infantry (just more flammable). Not to mention if you had Ents in such an army. Ents would be like living siege engines on a battlefield. Most of the infantry would probably be Eladrin (who are not chumps either) backed by Eladrin and Gnome spellcasters.
Unless you think Dryads are beautiful women with nothing better to do than hang around naked all day
Note that they should likely be pure defensive as they cant wander too far from their bonded trees; unless that tree is an Ent. So only during the largest battles and sieges where ents are deployed one can count on seeing dryads on a battlefield warding the Ent of cavelry and infantry.
I think it's quite scary for the Ffolk and people in the North to be hearing stories of unannounced eladrin cavalry of Leshay heritage hunting down man. That isle might be target for some vengefull torching in the future. I think it fits that even the current eladrin of Evereska and Cormanthyr would be shocked by the methods used by the newly arrived but ancient tribe of fellow eladrin of the Leshay house.
deleted
Lol. Now I'm really curious Lyrna!
I love the comments folks. Keep 'em coming. I'm under a big deadline at the moment or I would jump in more often.
But I dont see why dryads don't want to hang around bark naked near their bonded tree anymore or why they would answer readily for any war declarations.
I don't have the MM1 directly in front of me at the moment but from what I remember they are not directly bound to a spirit tree anymore (it's more like they are living sentient trees).
It's actually a lot more like how they are in Warhammer, which IMO is a good thing because the Dryads in Warhammer are hardcore.
You need to play more Warhammer then :P
I don't play Warhammer at all... don't like mini's much to begin with. :P
Lol. Now I'm really curious Lyrna!
Really? OK then.
I was just curious about the actual status of that Lionel Carrathal fellow. Did he wind up becoming a legitimate king? He's called a king, and I presume "Crown Princess Cymidei" is his daughter.
The royal line of the human kingdoms of the Moonshaes is fairly convoluted. All blood royals, being those individuals that hold a legitimate claim to the throne of the High King, can trace their ancestry back to the legendary hero king Cymrych Hue. Yet more than one royal bloodline exists, split among descendant noble families including the Carrathals, Kendricks, Selkirks, Kincaids, etc… The head of each of these families was a monarch in their own right, ruler of small kingdoms scattered throughout the various isles. As such, the Kendrick family claimed sovereignty over the kingdom of Corwell, the Kincaid family ruled Snowdown, etc… Thus, there are many kings and queens of the Moonshaes, but only one monarch may claim the title of High King/Queen. Their governance of Caer Callidyrr established the Carrathals as the blood lineage of High Kings, though the title, which had traditionally been earned through guile and strength of arms had become largely ceremonial in the centuries before Tristan Kendrick assumed the crown.
So… that leads us to the supposed end of the Carrathal line. When Tristan Kendrick was anointed High King over the Moonshaes in 1346 DR, the Carrathal line was broken. The one remaining Carrathal heir was Brynth, an illegitimate bastard living in Amn with his birthmother. Brynth never knew his true birthright and lived his meager life in Kalathyr until 1371 DR. After his father’s passing, sixteen year old Lionel (Carrathal) was told the truth of his lineage by his aging grandmother, setting into motion his dreams of reclaiming the throne for his family. Lionel spent the next eight years working through the echelons of Amnian society, even becoming a renowned war hero in the war against the Sothillisian Empire. In 1379 DR, at spry age of 24 Lionel made the first of many mistakes on the path to reclaiming his throne. In his youthful arrogance, he publicly denounced High Queen Alicia and demanded she relinquish the throne of the High King to him. By 1385, Lionel, through profitable investments in Maztica and other business dealings, had carved out a small fiefdom for himself in Amn. But never was that his goal. Just as he has assembled a formidable force to invade Callidyr, the Spellplague struck, sowing ruin through Amn and Faerûn.
As with most folk who survived the Wailing Years, Lionel spent the next two decades picking up the pieces and trying to rebuild his life. Through hard work and some underhanded dealings, Carrathal once again worked his way up through Amnian society. In 1404 DR, Lionel convinces the Council of Five to invade the Moonshae Isles. Still reeling from their own hardships, the attack takes Snowdown by surprise and the island kingdom quickly falls to Amnian occupation. Lionel is established as Viceroy of Caer Westphal. With the unexpected death of High Queen Alicia Kendrick in 1407 DR, Lionel saw this as an omen to once again assert his claim on the throne of the Caer Callidyrr. Through his network of spies and loyalists, Carrathal ignites uprisings throughout the Moonshaes.
Then in a bold move, Lionel attacks not Callidyrr as the new High Queen supposed, but instead sailed a flotilla of warships through Corwell Firth to besiege Caer Corwell. By the end of 1408 DR, Lionel Carrathal, claiming the blood lineage of Cymrych Hugh, declares himself King of Corwell and the true High King of all the Moonshaes. The newly ascendant monarch to the throne of Callidyrr, High Queen Feithline Kendrick, was impotent to forestall Carrathal’s rising insurrection. However, Lionel, after years of bitterness and vitriolic scheming had become a tyrannical ruler, unwisely executing and imprisoning dissenters among his subjects.
His stern demeanor and harsh countenance was passed on to his eldest daughter Cymidei, whose cruel depredations against the fey awakened the ire of Sarifal. All out war broke between Corwell and Sarifal in 1412 DR with disastrous consequences for common Ffolk of Corwell. High Lady Ordalf of Sarifal had declared all non-fey driven from Gwynneth Isle and one by one, human settlements that had stood for centuries were quickly overrun and abandoned.
Defeated, Carrathal abandoned Corwell Keep early in 1413 DR, setting sail for Caer Westphal. Only a few leagues along Corwell Firth, the small flotilla carrying Lionel Carrathal and his family was attacked and by the ancient fey guardian, Leviathan. Lionel’s crippled vessel quickly sank into the icy waters, and the Carrathal family was never heard from again.
[/INDENT]
Depends... freezing to death, as implied by the icy waters part, is probably one of the least horrible ways to go... though the panic from the drowning, if it kicked in, was probably unpleasant.
Dying of hypothermia actually isn't painful, it's more like going extremely numb and then going to sleep. The "going to sleep" part is what invariably gets you.
It does raise a question for me though Iakhovas, is the Leviathan a giant fey shark?
It does raise a question for me though Iakhovas, is the Leviathan a giant fey shark?
A colossal fey whale actually. There may be an illustration of Leviathan in Monday's DDI article on Sarifal.
so they died a miserable horrible painful death??
Not neccessarilly.... "Never seen a again" is used in game settings, comic books, and soap-operas, rather then actual deaths, so that they can bring said characters back in some interesting (and often unbelievable) way.
So a High King is just a fancy name for an Emperor, eh? ;)
Dying of hypothermia actually isn't painful, it's more like going extremely numb and then going to sleep. The "going to sleep" part is what invariably gets you.
It does raise a question for me though Iakhovas, is the Leviathan a giant fey shark?
Isn't that what I just said? :P
The drowning part was the bad thing...
Just to mention it, I believe page 110 of 2e's A Grand Tour of the Realms shows the Moonshae's more mystic defenders, including the Leviathan.
A colossal fey whale actually. There may be an illustration of Leviathan in Monday's DDI article on Sarifal.
It's a pretty good article and again some wonderful cartography. Seriously, it looks like the guy who did the Cormyr map and really he should have done the 4E maps in general. He's amazing.
It's a shame I'm no longer running realms games except for one after this month (and that will be planar for the rest of it shortly). I would have set my Tides of Dust game in the Moonshaes based on this article. But such is life.
Edit: There was also no giant picture of the Leviathan.
But I can totally envisage this Cthulhu vs. Giant Fey Whale fight in my head now and it's a completely hilarious mental image.
It's a pretty good article and again some wonderful cartography. Seriously, it looks like the guy who did the Cormyr map and really he should have done the 4E maps in general. He's amazing.
Agreed.
For a preview of the document use:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16429194/Grand-History-of-the-Realms-After-the-Spell-Plague
For a straight download use:
http://uploadingit.com/files/1157869_tdo5s/Grand%20History%20of%20the%20Realms%20-%20After%20the%20Spellplague%20-%20A%20Century%20of%20Change.pdf
This is way more than you asked for Rinonalyrna, but hopefuly it answers your question...
Yes, yes it does! This comes a bit late I know (I was on a short hiatus) but thank you for answering my question in the fullest way possible.
Thanks! :D
1458 DR (year of the Plotting Priests): Breeandra Nenthyn, owner of the Fall of Stars club passes away. The adopted twins, Kira and Dayan Nenthyn, inherit the club. Yellira Am’benuinyl becomes the new Mistress of Stars. DALE1-1
Hey, you can't kill off Bree! I liked her...
Sadly it happens. I feel for you, man. I mean after all, the Dragon Queen died, what, about 5 years before the curtain on the 4E timeline lifted again? Yeah. Lovely.
Have a hot chocolate and 10 minutes with a punch-bag.
Hey, you can't kill off Bree! I liked her...
I liked her as well, but it it was really to difficult to keep her alive after hundred years.
Kira is to follow in her adopted mothers footsteps though, so some part of Breeandra lives on.
Its a nice thought.
:D
:P
You know, I hear he didn't even give her a proper funeral... just left her corpse for the wolves.
:P
After he defiled it!:embarrass
;)
Glad to see you're not expressing any difficulties with being the punching bag at least... :evillaugh
I am a Writing Director. Being a punching bag is part of the job.
The advantage of being a WD is that you are not expected to have any social skills whatsoever ;)
Editors are supposed to be heartless evil tyrants
, after all.Breendra's death was only a relatively minor lore element though.
Now if only R&D would allow me to use the Symbul...
Gomez
Breendra's death was only a relatively minor lore element though.
All lore is not created equal? ;)
Although some are equaler then others...
On Topic: Maybe I will assist my brother with the Timelines ;)
Maybe some birdseed would help? :P
Tweet, tweet, tweet.:P You know what Stigger that is sig worthy!:DOn Topic: Maybe I will assist my brother with the Timelines ;)
Well its about time you did something useful around here
, so snap to it and tweet, tweet, tweet!I had no idea, about the one.
I was bumping ripvanwormer material, and just came across it.
Nice.
Since there was a question regarding the post-plague timeline.
And maybe we should start filling it again. So here is a nice one:
1451 DR (Year of Knowledge Unearthed): Netheril makes diplomatic overtures to High Imaskar. The Mistress of the Night, a ship gifted by the Imaskari, is attacked by sea monsters on route to Sembia. The Netherese passengers flee, abandoning the Imaskari crew, and High Imaskar ends the diplomatic relations in retaliation. CORE2-2
Monument of the Ancients advances the timeline to 1480 DR; just a quick FYI
Well then we need more events for the Timeline then!!!
Monument of the Ancients advances the timeline to 1480 DR; just a quick FYI
Well then we need more events for the Timeline then!!!
If you insist.
Ches, 1481 DR - Manshoon unites the entire planet under the banner of the Zhentarim. All opposition is crushed (including your loser PCs
) and His reign will go unchallenged until the end of time (yes, He and His empire survive that long). Even the gods and other great entities of the cosmos hide themselves from His sight, out of fear that they will invite His wrath upon them......... How's that grab ya? I think we can make it official, guys.
Wow. Has it really been a year since I started those timeline tweets!? Man, I've been slackin.
shame....
more tweets please
1481DR: The Elves conquer all of Toril in a sudden move nobody saw coming, all the gods are revealed to have simply been aspects of the various members of the Seldarine all along; and Corellon Larethian, in a moving show of his love for everyone on Toril, turns everyone into an elf.
the crystal sphere is shattered.
1481DR: The Elves conquer all of Toril in a sudden move nobody saw coming, all the gods are revealed to have simply been aspects of the various members of the Seldarine all along; and Corellon Larethian, in a moving show of his love for everyone on Toril, turns everyone into an elf.
This makes the Spellplague look great!
We need to send a memo to WotC to never hire Nai as a freelancer, or in house designer.
;)
What about the Shou empire, or is there any news from the sandy regions of Zakhara?
I do think they had a date for it.
1399 DR: Caladnei, Mage Royal of Cormyr, finally succumbs to years-long struggle with Spellplague; succeeded by Laspeera Inthré
Screw that. At least it's not official (I think/hope) and WoTC might be publishing pre Spellplague lore again. So we can ignore rubbish like that above. As for why it's rubbish? Well, I think killing off an interesting and little explored character in a freaking twitter, in such a silly, unheroic way is kinda insulting. (And the Spellplague is a disease now as well? Interesting..)
Laspeera is/was an interesting character too. But pity for Caladnei. Luckily for you, this is marked as BRJ... thus, not official.
Gomez,
who also wonders where the Gloamings went
I interpreted the quote as meaning the saurials were driven underground (I believe it means into the underdark) only after the Spellplague.
Gomez,
who also wonders where the Gloamings went
I touched on it briefly in my Ikemmu FR article. Though, it is much more ambiguous than you might think. Basically they jumped ship and got the hell out of town before the crap hit the fan. Ikemmu was formerly known as Sphur Upra--
I interpreted the quote as meaning the saurials were driven underground (I believe it means into the underdark) only after the Spellplague.
Gomez,
who also wonders where the Gloamings went
I touched on it briefly in my Ikemmu FR article. Though, it is much more ambiguous than you might think. Basically they jumped ship and got the hell out of town before the crap hit the fan. Ikemmu was formerly known as Sphur Upra--
Really!? The Saurials? oh you meant the Gloamings. Well your next article better have Saurials in it damnit!
But I would like to know more about the Gloamings as well, are they tied in with the avian creator race which I cant remember the name of at the moment?
added:
1399 DR (Year of the Fallen Friends): Chessentan coinage, once unique to each city-state, is consolidated into a single currency under the reign of War Hero Ishual Karanok D#178 - Chessenta
1440 DR (Year of Azuth's Woe): Branwyn Moonsinger, granddaughter to the late High Queen Alicia Kendrick, takes up the mantle of great druid D#376 - Sarifal
1453 DR (Year of the Strangled Jester): The minotaurs of Kond are swept away by the Warlock Knights. D#177 - Vaasa
1459 DR (Year of the Forged Sigil): Queen Brianne Dragonsbane of Bloodstone is assassinated. This distracts the realm of Bloodstone from the marshalling Vaasan armies in the north. D#177 - Vaasa
1460 DR (Year of the Malachite Shadows): War erupts between the realms of Bloodstone and Vaasa. D#177 - Vaasa
1469 DR (Year of Thundering Hosts): Bloodstone City, capital of the unified Kingdom of Bloodstone, is overrun by Vaasa, ending the war. D#177 - Vaasa
1470 DR (Year of the Second Circle): Borigon, third son of famed Garumbelly “Grumble” Hillsafar, claims his father’s throne after driving off a Warlock Knights invasion of Hillsafar Hall D#177 - Vaasa
That is, repost the Year and Name of a given timeline entry as the title of a new post in either Running the Realms or Realmslore, then think up the backstory and details surrounding the events for that timeline entry.
Some events are already explained (novel references, for example) but others are not.
Consider: 1399 DR (Year of the Fallen Friends): Caladnei, Mage Royal of Cormyr, finally succumbs to years-long struggle with Spellplague; succeeded by Laspeera Inthré.
This begs several interesting questions:
1) How was the Spellplague killing her?
2) Was it contained to her mind or was there a physical sickness running throughout her body too?
3) Did she craft spells to contain the plague and keep it from ravaging her?
4) Or did casting spells only strengthen the plague within her?)
5) Was it contagious in any way? Could she possibly spread it by casting spells on or at others?