What kind of energies are tapped from the weave? Does it relate to the planes? Does is establish a portal through the weave inside the tiny bag? Does the lit candle work as a beacon for the planar travel the summoned monster undertakes? Does the subject remember being used? Have fearunian mortals been summoned to other planes by the random choice of a spellcaster on a different prime? Do they rearrive at their home plane in the same spot or can they be lost several miles away?
I am strongly tempted to use a failed summon chart, where something else altogether come out of the temporary planar portal the conjurer created (especially unstable and dangerous domains and planes like Limbo or the Lolths Domain when summoning demons). A demon thusly set free can wreack havoc as long as the spell is active.
-This spell has always irked me, for the above reason: Where do the creatures come from? Do they know they are being used? Does it hurt them in any way? Are they chained, against their will?
Perhaps the summoned creatures come from Abeir. ;)
Actually, I've always thought that they were "pulled in" through a portal from another plane, even ones that were normal (i.e. not celestial or the like), as a random grab and that a side effect of the magic was the enslavement. I also treated the spell as a sort of "failed experiment in research of a planar gate mechanics" that had surprising side effects and has since been modified to "work" for another purpose. Rather akin to a researcher in our world who develops one invention and sees it become far more useful for something completely different.
I like Stigger's take, and I might use that somewhere.
I'm building a set of Shou Magic - True Alchemy - that existed before they interacted with the imaskari, and then became one with the Lung people of Kara-Tur (where the ancient arts of Alchemy got diminished into lesser schools, like the one that creates Smokpowder for Fireworks).
A lot of that is based on real Alchemy, mixed heavily with the stuff from FMA (it works really well for K-T), which is itself based on real Alchemy. basically, most creations revolve around creating a Humonculos - a spirit summoned from a primitive source of such things - and bound within an 'earthly vessel'.
This is the basis for everything I'm working on concerning Golems, Automatons, and even things like Familiars and Animal Companions.
Applying that here, I could see summoning one of these primitive spirits into the world temporarily (more time requires True Alchemy), in the guise of a creature known to the caster, and aligned accordingly (Humonculos do not have alignments - that take on the alignment of whoever summons them intot he prime... but it can change over time, just like 'real' people).
It would be pretty simple to say that the spirit passes through the Elemental Maelstrom, and picks up 'matter' to create its physical form, so it is complete upon arrival.
I'd personally rather go with that, then picture some Owlbear just getting ready to sit down to dinner with the wife and kids, and then he feels that 'tingling' and says "Oh crap... not again..."
It just seems so... rude... especially when you consider you are summoning 'good' creatures the same way.
What would be even more interesting is to build upon this, and say that all planer versions of earthly creatures are really Humonculos who didn't want to return to the source, and instead become animals and monsters on the outer planes (which is how we get those 'Legendary Creatures').
Just some random thoughts I figure I'd share...
*looks around his shoulder*Reducing the enslavement time might have a chance of the subject forgiving the casters more readily.
I think I would probably handle it in a manner similar to spirits from Werewolf: the Apocalypse and Mage: the Ascension to a certain degree... you can get away with abusing them for a while, but sooner or later, they're going to catch up with you... if not in this life, then in the next, or one even farther removed. Could make for an interesting subplot when one comes looking to get even on one of my PC's for transgression in another life thinking about it.
What happens, game-wise, in W:tA and M:tA? I've not played either of those. Some kind of karmic effect on your next PC?
Revenge served cold as a grave...I'd personally rather go with that, then picture some Owlbear just getting ready to sit down to dinner with the wife and kids, and then he feels that 'tingling' and says "Oh crap... not again..."
-That's what I've always pictured, though not necessarily Owlbears.
What happens, game-wise, in W:tA and M:tA? I've not played either of those. Some kind of karmic effect on your next PC?
Well, the game presumes a cycle of past-lives and reincarnation to a certain degree, although actual knowledge of them is fairly rare it seemed, though far more prevalent among Garou (werewolves) than among mages. Basically, it gives the idea of paying proper chiminage/bribery to spirits with fairly explicit negotiation as being the ideal way to deal with spirits you want something from, be it information or binding them into a fetish (magical item powered by spirits). They can be compelled with magick or gifts (werewolf version of magic), but if they ever get loose, don't count on them being happy with you, and probably seeking revenge on you at some point, possibly not even in this lifetime.
The idea is further compounded by the idea that spirits do no exist in a vacuum, and that eventually, you're going to develop a reputation with other spirits as someone bad to deal with, and probably good to at least avoid, if not hinder. Now, how much of this comes into play actually depends on the Storyteller/DM, of course, but its there for the using if necessary. Not quite 100% accurate, but a decent summation for the intents of this conversation. By the by, this is mostly from the oWoD, not the newer version, which I can't say I've been much interested in, so don't know much about.
Makes having arcane casters in your bloodline scary again.
-Divine casters are the ones who cast Reincarnation.
Well, the game presumes a cycle of past-lives and reincarnation to a certain degree, although actual knowledge of them is fairly rare it seemed, though far more prevalent among Garou (werewolves) than among mages. Basically, it gives the idea of paying proper chiminage/bribery to spirits with fairly explicit negotiation as being the ideal way to deal with spirits you want something from, be it information or binding them into a fetish (magical item powered by spirits). They can be compelled with magick or gifts (werewolf version of magic), but if they ever get loose, don't count on them being happy with you, and probably seeking revenge on you at some point, possibly not even in this lifetime.
The idea is further compounded by the idea that spirits do no exist in a vacuum, and that eventually, you're going to develop a reputation with other spirits as someone bad to deal with, and probably good to at least avoid, if not hinder. Now, how much of this comes into play actually depends on the Storyteller/DM, of course, but its there for the using if necessary. Not quite 100% accurate, but a decent summation for the intents of this conversation. By the by, this is mostly from the oWoD, not the newer version, which I can't say I've been much interested in, so don't know much about.
Interesting! I like it.
Ordinarily, Genies didn't get involved when mortals bound Gen, but if you abused you Gen, some big, nasty Efreet might come knocking at your door asking for explanations.
Its good to have family. :D
-Divine casters are the ones who cast Reincarnation.
Huh?
Though this reminds me of that funny Zombie NPC in Baldurs Gate 2 in the graveyard that gets revenge on his nephew for selling his business after he died. ^^
I always liked to introduce personalised summoned monsters... Like everytime the same monster comes aiding, with helpfull or reluctant personality and its own unique skills. It would have to be previously bound by mutual agreement or magic pact. The previous damage must be healed normally but experiences might get it upgraded to a next summon monster level. Give the DM some roleplaying and story tools aswell.
Perhaps enforce a "precasting" of the spell to establish the bond, to enable the summoned monster a smooth understanding of its tactics in combat or the tasks ahead (even allowing it to speak its wishes and refuse to appear). Perhaps this is why its a full round casting time, but I find that timespan indicates a more "mental leash" like relation to the summoned natures ally or monster.
I think the Imascari, Nar and Raumathari traditions of summoning show what summoning has in store for most conjurers. At dire times something too powerfull is bound and starts to cajole the caster (or better yet the society) to its own terms.
I picture the slow corruption of a conjurer starts at first with the summoned subject freely giving extended spelldurations ending in finally finding the way to stay for hours or days on end, going on doing what outsiders would love to do on the Primes... Shape it in their image.
The Imascari have shown the Realms' weave can be used to block dieties. The weave might have an effect on outsiders and actually be the active force that "protects" the realms from the planar shenanigens by directing dismissing them towards the right home planes.
Huh?
-Reincarnate. It's a Divine spell.
I think Binders from the Tome of Magic capture the right flavour to use for a "past-live spirit infusion". A few Werewolf Vestiges could be made or adapted to resemble heroic (totem)spirits. They would generally grant powers related to their temperament such as giant growth, magic resisitance, rage, sixth sense to danger or enhanced combat prowes at the cost of parts of the personality being "held hostage" by the ancient werewolf spirirt.
Which has almost no bearing on the subject at hand that I can fathom...
Nor I....
It's canon that mentioning the (true)name of Pazuzu three times summons his avatar.
-The discussion was about Arcane spellcasters coming back to life in a reincarnation cycle, to which I replied that Divine spellcasters are the ones who cast that spell. Geeze.
Aha, that's little more clear. But the discussion started of with an example of WoD's pastlive system in Werewolf: the Apocalypse (of which I didn't know Mages also could harness). The Garou are WoD's "druids" and we know how the cycle of life and rebirth plays an important role in D&D druidism. Aye, with the right perspective even WoD and D&D are quite alike with divine and arcane differences. But Stigger was explaining WoD's lore on binding past-live spirits into objects, and mentioned the reincarnation part to explain why for example certain human Garou have wolf ancestors.
It wont matter to an abused spirirt or summoned monster if the offspring of a conjurer picked up a totally different carreer, they are the ones carrying the "guilty blood". Even if the conjurers bloodline has been broken by a reincarnation spell a vengefull spirirt could still sniff out the soul responcable for the past anguish. This could make for a nice villaineous monster NPC, hunting down the bloodline of a PC for past transgressions.
And its any spirit... not familiar with past-life spirits though, those don't really exist as far as I can tell, it was all self-contained. Closest thing I can think of in terms of WoD lore was ancestor spirits. Also, Garou were perfectly capable of mating with either humans or wolves in a single lifetime, which is more than enough reason to have human and wolf ancestors, though it was more common in the past. As to having Lupus/Homid past lives, the WoD makes no distinction between breeds, only Tribe, which is the most defining feature of past-lives.
Though bloodline could work better in D&D terms really... could be really fun with a sorcerer who took the whole 'blood' thing very seriously. :evillaugh
The WoD flavour of spirits, the umbra and bindings fits into Rasheman's natural geography of spirits and mystic crossroads. I imagine the Wychlaren use the vremyonni to bind spirits into charms, weapons and masks in a similar way the Garou do, by chanting and luring spirits into service into proper devices.
East Fearun has a long history of binding outsiders. Thayans, Nar and Mulhorandi are most likekly to become the targets of anceint spirits who are once again loose from service and not happy about the time they lost in bondage. 15th Century Calimshan with those Efreet and Djinni empires is an example of how bound spirits, once set free can vengefully return to create an empire in their image.
The descriptions for spells such as summon monster or summon nature’s ally say the summoned creature disappears at the end of the spell’s duration. What if a druid cast summon nature’s ally, then cast animal friendship on it and befriended it? It would still disappear, right, but would it attempt to find the druid?
Summoned creatures aren’t really present; they dissolve at their original location, appear where summoned, then reform at their original location after the spell ends (see page 157 in the Player’s Handbook). If slain while summoned, it takes them a day to reform. In any case, they suffer no lasting effects (for good or for ill) from any summoning episode. If a character uses a summon nature’s ally spell to summon an animal, the caster could indeed cast an animal friendship spell on it. When the summon nature’s ally spell ends, however, the animal is gone, and it is no longer affected by the animal friendship spell.
In addition to this, consider also that gate is a 9th level spell and creates an interdimensional connection across which creatures can travel. While summon monster begins at 1st level.
From these facts we can deduce that something entirely different and interesting is going on with "summoned" monsters. The creatures are not brought physically to this plane, which would take a gate spell, or other high level magic. Summon monster appears to create a temporary manifestation that seems to be animated by the spirit/soul/mind/psyche of an extraplanar creature. The physical body is a "virtual" body, crafted automatically by the spell either using a template that exists within the spell itself, or perhaps within the mind of the caster (what the caster expects the monster to look like) or perhaps using the form of the actual monster as the template for the manifestation. What the "body" is composed of is unclear. Perhaps ectoplasm, or incarnum, or psionic energy, or maybe just "magic".
Anyway, the spell crafts a body and then draws the consciousness of an extraplanar creature into the body to possess it from another plane. The possession is temporary. The creature would seem to remain on its home plane. But what happens to its body there is unclear. The FAQ says the body disappears, but where it goes is unclear, because the real body does not seem to go to the summoned location. Maybe it slips into a pocket dimension, or floats in the Astral or Ether. If it does, does it just fall asleep or slip into a catatonic stupor? Or does it just become completely immaterial? We don't really know the answer to that.
But the effect of all this is that the creature does not actually die when it is slain. It comes back to where it left off and continues on with its normal life. Which should allay many philosophical objections to such a spell.
To a summoned creature, the spell is much like playing "World of Warcraft" in that the creature is only fighting in a virtual reality (for it) possessing an avatar. No actual harm comes to the creature.
We might also assume that the good aligned creatures that come through are not being enslaved. They seem to fight voluntarily, to the best of their ability. Which leads me to believe the creatures are on "duty" of some kind, that the service they perform is prearranged, perhaps with a deity or the spell creator himself. One might surmise that they have been "called to serve" and willingly do so because it is a task, tradition, obligation, sacred rite, or other duty with which they have been charged. It may be a condition of their particular role in the afterlife that they have to serve in this capacity for a period of time set by the terms of their religion, pact, or deity. To that extent we might infer the creatures have an expectation of being summoned and perform their task willingly. Many ethical quandaries one might have about using this spell are thus largely avoided in this fashion.
Presumably neutral and evil summoned beings are similarly encumbered with the duty, although they might actually have been enslaved or compelled by evil beings or forces to stand ready for such service, though it need not, I suppose, be an unwilling or unenjoyable service for such creatures. Many of them may actually like coming to the Material Plane and fighting. It could be a welcome, even fun diversion for some of them. And of course, summoned monsters aren't always summoned for the purpose of fighting, they are summoned for many other things such as for lifting, cleaning, riding, etc.
As to your take on it Gray, I'm curious to know what FAQ you're referring to up there. Its an interesting take on things, but given the choice, I think I prefer Suin's take on the matter in post #17 , as a matter of personal taste anyway.
Still, the other way could give us more RP possibilities. I'm picturing this great, big 'Employment Agency' in the sky, with hundreds, maybe thousands, of windows, each for a different Monster-type...
"Next!". :D
I mean, there must be some sort of 'common pool' these creatures are drawn from.
Maybe there is a special Hell, wherein you are 'punished' by serving as one of these summoned creatures for a few hundred years. I saw an episiode of ST
oyager wherein the Hunter race (Hirogens) modified the Holodeck technology so that their 'prey' could learn and adapt, by having them 'remember' all of their past experiences.What they did was create a group (the Holograms) that became self-aware, and very cunning, because they just couldn't stand to "die another hundred times".
Just think about what a great punishment that would be - you keep getting summoned, and most of the time you would get killed in battle... or be victorious and have to return home, awaiting another possible 'death'.
Boy, would THAT suck.
As to your take on it Gray, I'm curious to know what FAQ you're referring to up there.
The FAQ's are at this link here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a
Specifically it is discussed in the 3e Main FAQ on p. 50
However, I also found the info in the Players Handbook.
You will find the info in the 3E Players Handbook on p. 157 under the school of Conjuration, subheading Summoning.
You can find it also in the 3.5 Revised Players Handbook on p. 173 under the subheading of Summoning.
As to the spells and the way they work, I understand most of it, but its a bit lacking (maybe distasteful as well) as far as I'm concerned... there's always room for alternative takes on things in my book. But I'll admit I tend to have issues with conjuration to start with, as I see it as very weak, in the sense that the power being called is external rather than an internal strength... its complicated to explain though, especially in D&D terms.
How does that make you feel?
As in could it be possible to be unlucky enough to get picked out by a stray summon spell? Would a PC know whats going on? I understand correct in that he won't disappear but just stand there for some moments, while his soul gets to control a few heated combat rounds? Quite bizarre.
My evil-DM side is coming out - How about there is some sort off 'cosmic balance' where all this is concerned?
That PC thats always summoning critters? One day he himself gets summoned when some inhuman 'thing' casts summon human hero.
Pay back's a bi*ch. :D
*snickers*
Heh, true enough. In honor of the Planescape books I've been rereading over the last few days, I'll think of it from now on as Summon Clueless.
That's the spell to summon Alicia Silverstone, right? ;)
Although I think Paris Hilton might show up instead.
And as for Alicia Silverstone, nothing doing here... unless it was to feed her to lions or something. :P
I'm more of a 'Raven-haired beauty' man m'self, but Alicia would do in a pinch. ;)
I'm a PETA man myself... which is why I'm against having pets, which seems contradictory... but thats in my nature anyway.
And PETA is very much against keeping pets... well, they're bloody terrorists if you ask me, but that's horribly off-topic. So, moving right along...
They like to blow-up bulldozers. I think it's funny as hell :D (especially since all of the governmet-owned and 'protected' land is being sold to relatives of public officials for development).
I wished I had it in me to be more active, but I'm more of the type to sit around and whine about everything then actually try and make changes happen.
I support boycotts though - thats pretty easy to do. As long as I don't have to get up off the couch...
Boy have we gone WAY off topic. :embarrass
On-Topic:
This thread keeps sending my brain back to that 'Monster Employment Agency in-the-sky' schtick. Now I see the little red light flashing, and some Ogre saying "Oh, damn... my wife just went into labor...", and the Harpy saying "Don't sweat it Charlie... I got this one", and just disappears in a puff of smoke. :D