Karsus took humanity's first baby steps into our rightful place of domination of all the planes of existence. It took the combined might of a jealous pantheon [well actually just Mystryl] to contain Humanity's Champion and turn him into a rock. But our destiny will no longer be thwarted. We no longer need the puny spirits that call themselves Gods or their silly ethos. With Karsus at our head, we shall bow our heads to no other beings and the entire cosmos will be our playground. I demand that Wizards of the coast and Forgotten Realms authors bring back our fallen hero who gave so much to save us.
--Cultist of Karsus
--Human Xenophobe
But seriously, folks, imagine all the mischief Karsus could get into if they brought him back. It would be great material.
I too think he will be realeased sometime down the road.
The Karsestone has laid somewhere beneath the sands of Aunaroch. This misshapen piece of rock is your focus of bringing the Mad Mage back? Karsus physical form was bloated beyond recognition when he was stripped of the weaves control (just look at that pic), so when he does come back he might be wanting to see some magical plastic surgery.
Ever read the Netheril Trilogy by Clayton Emery? Karsus was portrayed as the utter crackpot he was ... and duly went into the oblivion he deserved. No ifs and buts
Was he an utter crackpot outside of these novels, though? He was obviously arrogant, ambitious and at least somewhat ruthless, but I am not sure he was Loonyville material.
As I understand it, Karsus sought out godhood primarily because he could find no other satisfactory way to destroy the Phaerimm and save Netheril. I am not saying he was not enticed by the power godhood provides. I am saying his road to Hell (or binding to the Material Plane...) was paved with good intentions. He was blinded by his arrogance and desperation, not mad theories and hunger for power. Do not forget his spell worked; it was his experience as a deity (none!) that was found lacking, not his magical acumen. To me he is a tragic hero, not a villain.
In my games I regularly draw parallels between Karsus and J. Robert Oppenheimer. Both were prodigies at twenty two (archmage and Ph.D., respectively), both worked on dangerous projects (heavy magic and the Manhattan Project) which they later regretted, and both ascribed to political views that were radical at the time (support of underground research/support of Communist ideals). If something went terribly wrong and the Manhattan Project backfired I imagine we would be discussing Oppenheimer in a similar manner to how Faerûnian sages discuss Karsus.
Regarding a return to mortal life for Karsus, who knows which way he would go on the Shade issue? On one hand, Lord Shadow was a student of Karsus and has indeed brought back the empire Karsus destroyed. On the other hand, Karsus might have learned from his Folly and would fight tooth and claw to keep Lord Shadow from making a similar mistake. If I brought Karsus back in my own 1479 DR Forgotten Realms game I would go with the later possibility and make him a patron of the player characters.
EDIT: I thought the magic-weeping red stone corpse of Karsus had no name except for the destroyed city, destroyed town, and rebuilt town nearby, all named Karse (Karsus' stone form landed in the High Forest, not Anauroch, by the way). I was under the impression 'Karsestone' refered specifically to Karsus' petrified heart.
Was he an utter crackpot outside of these novels, though? ...
Won't matter.
The novels were meant to portray him in his final years, well, actually it was about the fall of Netheril and portraying a lot of people back then. Since FR novel become lore once they are out, we can safely assume that during his final years/days/months, Karsus was well beyond it.-No thank you.
Free Karsus with any purchase of an archmage of equal or greater value!
Free Karsus with any purchase of an archmage of equal or greater value!
-There are none!
Won't matter.
I am surprised you even believe that anymore, after all the retcons and inconsistencies introduced over the past 2 years.
:noway
, but someone should repeat the following and it might as well be me.Quality of a work is irrelevant to whether a product is canonical or is not canonical. The current situation is that Wizards of the Coast products, both role playing books and novels, are the official Dungeons & Dragons material. It does not matter whether they are consistent with previous material, or even if they are consistent between printings of the same book--new material trumps old material, and a statement must be reinforced with references from official material if it is to be taken as truth. That said, just because something is so in the official game does not mean it has to be so in your game, as I am sure all are aware.
I am surprised you even believe that anymore, after all the retcons and inconsistencies introduced over the past 2 years.
In direct response to the above quote: Yes, I do believe Karsus was batty if it was said in a novel, and I will continue to do so until Wizards of the Coast change their policy regarding canonicity. I also believe you are completely correct regarding the frequent mistakes in recent Wizards of the Coast products--it sucks, I do not like it, and I am very disappointed that I must cross reference new products with old products as if the edition change was a White Wolf style reboot a-la OWoD and NWoD. Conversely, the setting authors are creative writers, not historians, and from personal experience I must admit that writing new material for an old game setting is very much like compiling historical facts.
To get back on topic, if Karsus was returned to normal life I guess his magical ability would no longer be constrained by the Weave. Uh oh.
True but he has to "re learn" magic again :P
That is true, but has the extent to which this hampers former Weave-users been fully expressed? Pardon me while I play
's advocate. For example, did Larloch have to scrap everything he accomplished over the millenia? If so, the Shadow King is greatly reduced in power in 1479 DR. Along the same line of thought, why is Szass Tam still big dog in Thay? Artifacts and minions only go so far; I posit the unraveling of the Weave was a setback for a magic user, not an end to his career.True but he has to "re learn" magic again :P
no he discovered how to use the heavy magic, which is the very magic the 4e FR wizards use today.
he'd only say, been there done that, so meh.
I am surprised you even believe that anymore, after all the retcons and inconsistencies introduced over the past 2 years.
Ach well, there were a few retcons over the years, but most of them were tolerable (to a degree). Intolerable (IMHO and in my Realms) are anything that happens post 1380 D.R. (i.e. Spellplague stuff et al).
With regards to retcons, you can split those up into various layers, starting with an author's / designer's "lack of knowledge", via an author's / designer's will to change something (because s/he can) to his/her liking up to massive changes of the setting. Most things that happen in AD&D and up to the end of 3,5E were low key affairs (though I agree that people will see some things differently).
Only recently I read The Orc King and in there someone who should know (after writing about drow) utterly mixed up the drow languages. Drizzt and To'sun spoke to one another in Low Drow (which others could not understand). While that strange mage "Jack the Gnome" (what a name
) spoke to Drizzt in High Drow. When actually "Deep Drow", "Drowic" or "Low Drow" is the everyday tongue of the drow (and the one most likely learned by any non-drow), whereas "High Drow" is an archaic language rarely used and heard chiefly by the clergy of Lolth (used in spell incantations or by priestesses who don't want lesser drow within hearing to understand their speech (TDotUD, p. 95)), a tongue not even the archmages and folk like Pharaun have any knowledge of. Such mishaps I kindly ignore.no he discovered how to use the heavy magic, which is the very magic the 4e FR wizards use today.
-Not exactly. We're still waiting for an explanation on just how exactly magicians use magic in the post-Spellplague era. We've been told that it's possible, which is fine, but we haven't been told just exactly how it's possible.
They had to figure-out a way of handling smaller amounts so as not to harm themselves, which means they aren't able to do as much as they were before. However, due to the incredible power of Raw Magic, they can do more of the same thing, over and over.
I've broached Ed with the "Mystra wasn't exactly telling the truth about the Weave" thing, and his reponse was "Markustay, your knowledge of the Weave is most impressive" (or some-such).
Magic is like Nuclear Power - there is the safe, 'American' way of doing things (like the Weave, with all its safety protocals and redundant systems), or the 'Russian' way of doing things (like Raw magic - just grab the power and don't worry about the consequences). Using Raw Magic is like building more Chernobyls - it's a fast, easy way to get 'firepower', but the dangers are very real beause the 'safety net' of the Weave is no longer in-place.
Everyone is now using the 'fast & dirty' method.... except maybe the Elves... they figured-out ways of handling pure magic before even coming to Toril (using casting circles, hence 'High Magic'). I have a feeling that Elven High Magic always bypassed the Weave and accessed magic directly, which is why the results were always so dramatic (and unpredictable).
I think 'ritual magic' is built off of the older spells (those matrixes that required memorization), but now more has been added to the casting process so as to erect a temporary mini-weave (stabilizing the process, and allowing the older spells to work). This means those spells take longer, but you can achieve much of the safety and reliability you had while casting under the Weave.
They're tapping directly into Raw Magic.
-None of the problems that come with accessing Raw Magic (the problem of accessing it, to begin with, and the problem of dealing with "harmful contact") have been mentioned or explained. Unfortunately, none of the other forms of magic that access(ed) Raw Magic explain(ed) how exactly this was possible, either. But, nothing has been retconned, as far as we know, and as far as the sources say, so Raw Magic is still difficult to access, and extremely harmful to those who are able to manifest it's power. Being that, generally speaking, magicians are not encountering these problems, the hypothesis that they are accessing Raw Magic does not fit. Either, (A) people are utilizing magic in a different manner, or (B) someone forgot how Raw Magic works, and a retcon was inserted without realization, mention, or explanation.
Everyone is now using the 'fast & dirty' method.... except maybe the Elves... they figured-out ways of handling pure magic before even coming to Toril (using casting circles, hence 'High Magic'). I have a feeling that Elven High Magic always bypassed the Weave and accessed magic directly, which is why the results were always so dramatic (and unpredictable).
-Being Epic Magic, it both drew partially from the Weave, and partially from the caster(s).
Written for those people who try to raise being ordinary to godhood, and don't respect people who are actually better than them.
Those novels weren't even consistent as far as Karsus' motivations went - although you could theoretically blame that on Karsus being a complete nitwit. Someone with the mental ability to understand the nature of gods and how to manipulate their existence and his own to grant him their power, someone who understood the nature of reality and how to modify it to suit his will... with the mental capacity of a monkey. Perfect. [sarcasm]
I'm pretty sure the 3E info on Karsus post-dates those novels, meaning that Karsus casting a spell that he knew would kill him, to save his people, makes him someone who made a noble sacrifice, and died tragically.
--
I'm not sure the death of the Weave would actually restore Karsus any more than it kills all of the magical objects made under the Weave. Also, I think that heart of his bleeding original Weave heavy magic, probably means that he retains part of Mystryl's divinity, and part of her version of the Weave. So Mystra's section of the Weave being toast probably doesn't effect him any.
He really does deserve to be resurrected, but it should be at the hands of Netherese trying to reclaim former glory - in opposition to Telamont's ridiculous and non-Netherese approach to life and worshipping of beings like Shar, that no real Netherese Archwizard should've stooped to.
I always thought him to be über-cool ... but do we really need more ancient personalities/cultures/empires etc. resurrected??
If new über-NPCs are needed because people got fed up with Mystra's chosen, Fzoul, Drizzt, Manshoon etc. ... think up some new ones, instead of keep bringing back old ones. It just seems lazy.
Oh how I detested the Netheril novels. Just the basic idea of writing novels about Netheril and focusing them on some Shaman was so utterly ridiculous that I could barely believe it was happening... and the crap never properly recovered.
-That's like writing a novel centered around Bladesingers, and then having an extremely atypical Bladesinger protagonist...Wait...
-Too many Forgotten Realms books have a habit of doing that. I can understand not wanting to conform to the norm, so that your novel provides a new perspective and all of that, but from my (and many other peoples') point of views, there's a limited amount of novels that are going to be published. I/We want novels to conform to the norm, and show us the place in question, the race in question, the class in question, whatever it is.
I always thought him to be über-cool ... but do we really need more ancient personalities/cultures/empires etc. resurrected??
On second thought, no we do not need more resurrected ancients. I was so excited about the return of Karsus the Awesome I did not think of the consequences. After all, there are three resurrected magical empires (Imaskar, Myth Drannor, and Netheril) and all of them would be very concerned if Karsus returned. The fight between them over Karsus would be a Realms-shaking-event and The Forgotten Realms really does not need one of those to be added to canon right now. Of course, if someone wants to write a homebrew campaign arc about Karsus I will be giddy like a school girl.
I am thinking ‘Karsus Reborn’, ‘Karsus Lives!’, and ‘Die Karsus Die!’ 
If new über-NPCs are needed because people got fed up with Mystra's chosen, Fzoul, Drizzt, Manshoon etc. ... think up some new ones, instead of keep bringing back old ones. It just seems lazy.
A player once remarked to me that the 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms was beginning to feel like the old World of Darkness--all the positions, places, and groups were filled and there was no room for new characters if a DM wanted to use all existing canon. I never had that problem with either oWoD or FR but I understand the sentiment.
Conversely, I have seen DMs introduce Jay Random and Biff Generic when an existing character would have been comparable or better in the role. It is also more difficult to reinvent an existing character than it is to create a new one (at least in my experience and the experience of my local contemporaries) and can be much more rewarding for both DM and player. This is doubly so in The Forgotten Realms where there is such a rich history, a profusion of well-developed characters, and if they are not short-lived humans a hundred game years to fill up with your own material to set the stage for your game. My regular players, and I suspect my group is not alone in this, are absolute Realmslore nuts. They love it when I introduce characters they recognize. Let me use my current game set in 1479 DR as an example.
The primary antagonist is Halaster Blackcloak. He is not the original Halaster because poor Madcloak is dead. He is an independent cloakling, in this case a living spell (thanks Spellplague!) of Chever’s Simulacrum, who has the identity of Halaster before he settled on the Sword Coast. He goes by his original Imaskari name, Hilather, so my players did not realize who he was at first, but when they discovered the identity of the well-spoken gentleman with the tied-back hair, neatly trimmed beard, and immaculate silver-skull studded robes was they looked ready to drop bricks.
The group’s current patron is Nezram the Transmuter/Worldwalker. There is not much written about him other than his actions before a lengthy planewalking expedition, the tower and spellbooks he left behind, and two different stories on his return. His personality and much of his history are a blank slate so he is essentially a new character my players recognized on introduction.
Alright, I know I rambled a bit on that one. For the TL;DR crowd here is a short answer:
I believe bringing back old characters is not inherently lazier than thinking up new ones. If the players are fed up with the characters the DM is using, however, it is time for a change of cast.
-That's like writing a novel centered around Bladesingers, and then having an extremely atypical Bladesinger protagonist...Wait...
LOL... like novels about Dark Elves who are actually kind and Good? :P
Anyhow, it is a proven fact that Karsus was delusional - both the Sarrukh and the Imaskari 'dealt with' their Phaerimm problem without having to resort to 'godhood', and another, much lesser mage of Netheril figured-out the perfect solution... and then promptly died mere moments before she could share it.
Karsus was not only guilty of Epic Fail, but he is also guilty of unequalled hubris - he really thought that the only solution to the world's problems was for him to become a god. He didn't even bother to pursue other avenues of research once he got that idea in his head.
I like the whole 'mythology' surrounding Karsus and Netheril, but I wish they had left it all in the past where it belonged.
Indeed... Netheril was much more interesting when it was extinct.
Hell in my opinion and in my realms there is no reborn Netheril or Karsus. To be exact I haven't set the clock 100 years either. I've set most of my games in the time period after Lolths silence with different result than whats in the books.
LOL... like novels about Dark Elves who are actually kind and Good? :P
-Well, with Drizzt at least, most other Drow in those novels are evil. With Liriel Baenre, many other Drow are worshipers of Eilistraee, so they get their own special subsection...But, yeah.
I like the whole 'mythology' surrounding Karsus and Netheril, but I wish they had left it all in the past where it belonged.
-Hey, both Netheril and myself are parts of the past. The Karse Stone, and all of that, nothing ever really came of that, so there's a bullet that was dodged. With the city of Shade, I've always separated the two, Shade and Netheril. The Shade Enclave, asides for a bunch of basic details, is very atypical for a Netherese enclave, and their "new" Netheril is very much unlike the original Netheril. It's very much a case of a two different (but somewhat related) entities sharing the same name, with the actual Netheril, and the empire that the Shadovar are forging.
It is odd how they went from essentially godless heathens to fanatical Shar worshippers... not like the Netherese were ever the most pious of folks to begin with...
-Exactly why I don't consider the Shadovar's efforts to create an empire Netheril. It's the Shadovar Empire, and they can call it whatever they want, but it isn't exactly a Netheril Reborn. If anything, it's Netheril Prime, or something like that. Kinda, sorta, but not exactly.
-In "their" defense, though, the Shade Enclave always did have a prominent temple (mosque, actually) dedicated to Tyche, so they weren't as atheistic as some other Netherese. And, of course, spending thousands of years in the Plane of Shadows would bring one closer to Shar, I would think. Both in the 'shadows' part, and in the 'nihilism' part.
-You gotta have a place of power before you can start subjecting the world to heavy doses of nihilism. This goes for all organizations that espouse anarchy, or nihilism, or whatever else: Just because what they profess runs counter to their actual organization, they can't spread what they want without their organization.
And because of such organizations your efforts will more than likely be subverted by the other people in said organization(1 of the reasons I don't like clubs or organizations), you want it done right do it yourself.
The Shadovar are about REBUILDING, which is anethema to an entropic entity like Shar.
I see Stiggers point, and it is kinda glaring.
The Shadovar are about REBUILDING, which is anethema to an entropic entity like Shar.
-The world needs to be sent into nothingness correctly. It needs to be proverbially built-up correctly before it can be knocked down correctly. Only they know how to do it correctly. Those guys at the temple in Calimshan? They don't.
The setting should be called:Revived Realms
Thats good.---
@LK: Seriously, I had such expectations of the Netheril novels. A novel on Netheril should either be about an archwizard, or someone aspiring to be an archwizard. Maybe it could focus on a Drizzt or Enteri like high level-ish character who serves archwizards. But even if it were primarily focused on a decent level wizard living his life in Netheril and actually doing something useful, and taking part in something significant - it could maybe.. maybe work.
But no, it was about a shaman, with a low-end wizard as his side-kick (more or less - he was the secondary character).
Plus of course, almost none of the Netherese were portrayed as beings of any level of sense. Drunk on power, and thinking themselves gods doesn't naturally come to people who did not deserve to be there, when they are self-made. If a wizard climbs up to being an archwizard, he's like a self-made billionaire, not someone who inherited his money.
As for the Shades. I agree, the Netherese wanted to be awesome and godlike, not non-existent. That's why I had that question in the ask Paul Kemp thread, whether there was any chance that with Shade Enclave returned to Toril, if there was a chance that people would break out, and people who retained the old ideals would come forth now that there is Netherese technology and Netherese enclaves back in Toril's skies. I find it impossible that Telamont and his kids are the only really powerful wizards on Shade enclave, after thousands of years for new people to be born and grow, and for people already there to grow. There should have been some wizards there at least, who would've had the potential to become archwizards themselves back before the fall, and they would still have grown up with access to Netheril's knowledge.
---
As for Karsus... Shar took the Karse-stone I think - not sure what she did with it. If he were back as a wizard, I doubt it would take him long to return to his old level of ability by alternative methods (considering that adapting to magic in new times and with different rules, doesn't seem to take wizards any time at all :P) He may be able to find less efficient ways of doing what he wants (including epic magic). Ultimately, lets say if someone wanted to rebuild Karsus Avatar. The main problem wouldn't be power, but rather, understanding the nature of gods and man well enough to create a spell that could do what KA did. Ultimately more a matter of knowledge.
... what he could do in this age... probably an incredible amount of interesting stuff, and seriously FR seems boring now from what I've heard of 4E (did not bother to buy the material). Pseudo-Netheril and Pseudo-Imaskar back, but nothing interesting happening... If they wanted these guys back, they should've turned FR into an even more high-magic setting, where players could look towards quests on the same level as what might've happened if you lived in the old times of Netheril, Imaskar, Jhaamdath etc.
A couple of known factions out to challenge the gods would suddenly make things a lot more interesting :P
and seriously FR seems boring now from what I've heard of 4E (did not bother to buy the material). Pseudo-Netheril and Pseudo-Imaskar back, but nothing interesting happening...
There is much more national intrigue and a lot fewer Realms-shaking-events simultaneously in the making (probably because they happened in between settings :uh-huh
. I am saddened by the ease players understand the Netherese when given the phrase ‘goth Nazis’. 
I do not like the idea of the Netherese being the default enemy du jour for DMs, especially since that was the case with the Shadovar throughout 3rd Edition. Conversely, I am very excited by High Imaskar and Myth Drannor. 
That's why I had that question in the ask Paul Kemp thread, whether there was any chance that with Shade Enclave returned to Toril, if there was a chance that people would break out, and people who retained the old ideals would come forth now that there is Netherese technology and Netherese enclaves back in Toril's skies.
As for the Shades. I agree, the Netherese wanted to be awesome and godlike, not non-existent.
I do not buy into the Shadovar as servants of Shar concept either; I like my Shadovar arrogant, not fanatical. There is some support for both views, however. Citizens who worship must worship Shar, but worship is not mandatory. There are high priests and strong worshippers of Shar among the Twelve Princes of Shade, but the citizens look to the High Prince when they need a role model. Lord Shadow is an old school arcanist with old school ideals more interested in preserving pre-Fall Netherese culture than anything else. Also, Shade has a history of using the worship of domineering goddesses as a front--before the Fall the citizens of Shade used the benefits of worshipping Tyche for their research (goddess of luck and all that) and the tenets of a specific aspect of her as an excuse for their behavior (the Lady of Misfortune made me do it! :angelhide) (Netheril, Empire of Magic).
Besides, there is no reason two apparently contradictory beliefs cannot be prevalent in the same society, or even the same government (oh the conversations Telamont and Rivalen must have). To use a real world example for comparison, the United States promotes democracy but has a history of enforcing regime change in democratic countries. Dichotomous political systems rarely behave sensibly.
A couple of known factions out to challenge the gods would suddenly make things a lot more interesting
This reminded me: has it ever been revealed if Lord Shadow ever learned of Karsus’ Folly? Considering the Shadovar completely exterminated the phaerimm I am inclined to believe he did not. To be fair Telamont could have wanted to kill the things that pushed his teacher to cast that fateful spell, or perhaps it just took a long time for him to figure it all out.
First a correction: Mystryl did not know that her divinity was going to be passed on. In the face of a temporary duration spell giving her power to someone trying to save his people, she chose to kill herself, and to the best of her knowledge, thus permanently destroy all magic on Toril forever. It was complete luck that somewhere between Karsus' spell, and however she killed herself, her divinity turned into a coherent construct that diefied someone who had uptil then spent her time slobbering all over herself, and actually been unable to speak even. Amazing!!! So instead of Karsus temporarily becoming God of Magic, a loon ended up becoming god of magic.
Did I say that Mystryl knew what was going to happen? NO! All I said was she sacrificed herself and was reborn a few seconds later(hell I think it was 1 second later). And as for the rest of it, She apparently had enough of her facilities left to make a coherent thought to sacrifice herself for the greater good(I don't buy your slobbering all over herself theory) AND her existence up to then involved more than just being being an automaton with no coherent thoughts, it involved being the deity of magic and keeping an eye on the weave(after being created in a duel between Shar and Selune).
I have also never claimed to know everything.
Seriously, as lore goes, I consider that horrifying - especially coming from Ed
So you see, as far as Mystryl knew, she was destroying magic with her choice to kill herself - in the face of a spell that had a temporary duration - against a spell caster who knowingly cast a spell that he expected would kill him, to save his people.
So Karsus was a tragic hero, and Mystryl was nuts. (that's not actually the view Ed would have wanted taken from what he said, but thats what it amounts to, combining what he said and latter day lore, with KA having been made a temporary duration spell even back in 2E) - I have little objection to that since the gods in FR have always struck me as incredibly unimpressive, and I like people who would reach for the stars
@Dan_VK: According to the novels, Telamont got info on what happened with Karsus from Shar, and her clerics, soon after he jumped to the plane of Shadow.
... and as far as the novels go, I'm surprised that Telamont was shown to have knowledge of the fact that his son killed his wife, to please Shar, and that the knowledge was given to him by Shar. I'd expected it to be part of a plot to turn Telamont to the shadow with despair, but I'd never thought that Telamont would know, or that he could on some level be grateful to Shar for her help.
With Shar, it can't even be considered real help. Its completely self-serving, and likely to lead you to your doom, kind of help.
Actually this information is from Ed. He says that where keepers of lore in FR, and servants of Mystra may believe otherwise, in fact Mystryl did not know that she would be reborn, and that it was a complete accident that Mystra became a goddess in her place... before Mystra (the woman who became diefied by absorbing Mystryl's divinity), became a goddess, she was a loon who couldn't even talk, and spent her time slobbering over herself.
Seriously, as lore goes, I consider that horrifying - especially coming from Ed
So you see, as far as Mystryl knew, she was destroying magic with her choice to kill herself - in the face of a spell that had a temporary duration - against a spell caster who knowingly cast a spell that he expected would kill him, to save his people.
So Karsus was a tragic hero, and Mystryl was nuts. (that's not actually the view Ed would have wanted taken from what he said, but thats what it amounts to, combining what he said and latter day lore, with KA having been made a temporary duration spell even back in 2E) - I have little objection to that since the gods in FR have always struck me as incredibly unimpressive, and I like people who would reach for the stars
@Dan_VK: According to the novels, Telamont got info on what happened with Karsus from Shar, and her clerics, soon after he jumped to the plane of Shadow.
... and as far as the novels go, I'm surprised that Telamont was shown to have knowledge of the fact that his son killed his wife, to please Shar, and that the knowledge was given to him by Shar. I'd expected it to be part of a plot to turn Telamont to the shadow with despair, but I'd never thought that Telamont would know, or that he could on some level be grateful to Shar for her help.
With Shar, it can't even be considered real help. Its completely self-serving, and likely to lead you to your doom, kind of help.
Whatever the truth may be I still don't see Karsus as a tragic hero, but more as a fool that should have thought about what he was doing and used more wisdom before trying a foolhardy method that he didn't know what would really happen. However "shrug" it's all in the past.
...and was reborn a few seconds later(hell I think it was 1 second later)..
-At least 30 seconds to 5 minutes later (depending on what definition of "round" you want to use; Given when How the Mighty are Fallen was published, supplementary 2e material had already been published to peg it at 30 seconds.
@Dan_VK: According to the novels, Telamont got info on what happened with Karsus from Shar, and her clerics, soon after he jumped to the plane of Shadow.
It seems typical of Shar to do something like that. I imagine Telamont was quite hurt to learn his genius teacher, patron, and friend was the ender of Netheril instead of the hated phaerimm. Would you mind telling me what book that is in?
Ach well, there were a few retcons over the years, but most of them were tolerable (to a degree). Intolerable (IMHO and in my Realms) are anything that happens post 1380 D.R. (i.e. Spellplague stuff et al).
- RotA was almost totally ignored. Rivalen didn't die and Shadow Weave didn't split from some original pure Weave.
- The Shadow of Avatar and Avatar Trilogies have inconsistent sequences of events too (i.e. Eliminster tutoring Midnight)
- The Netheril Trilogy's canonicity was also not totally respected - Take Lady Polaris' fate for example
I'd say canonicity of novels are far from being set in stone, unfortunately.
I'd say canonicity of novels are far from being set in stone, unfortunately.
I am inclined to agree, but as I understand it Wizards of the Coast's official policy is that all Forgotten Realms novels are considered canon. I definitely agree that the novels are inconsistent enough it causes problems among people who read both the RPG FR and the novel FR. Even if published materials contradict each other the most recent novel is considered correct at the expense of previous novels and role playing materials. That is what I have regularly been told at least. I cannot seem to find official comment one way or the other, so if someone does has a quote or document to post showing WotC's Realms novel policy I would be very grateful. This discussion happens often enough I am considering putting a rank of canonicity in my signature.
I am inclined to agree, but as I understand it Wizards of the Coast's official policy is that all Forgotten Realms novels are considered canon. I definitely agree that the novels are inconsistent enough it causes problems among people who read both the RPG FR and the novel FR. Even if published materials contradict each other the most recent novel is considered correct at the expense of previous novels and role playing materials. That is what I have regularly been told at least. I cannot seem to find official comment one way or the other, so if someone does has a quote or document to post showing WotC's Realms novel policy I would be very grateful. This discussion happens often enough I am considering putting a rank of canonicity in my signature.
This doesn't change the original argument. Despite what was described in the Netheril Trilogy, Karsus can be revived as a NYPD cop should WotC finds it tasteful to do so.
This doesn't change the original argument. Despite what was described in the Netheril Trilogy, Karsus can be revived as a NYPD cop should WotC finds it tasteful to do so.
-Heh. Actually, it's funny you say exactly that...
This doesn't change the original argument. Despite what was described in the Netheril Trilogy, Karsus can be revived as a NYPD cop should WotC finds it tasteful to do so.
My apologies for being writing gobbledygook. I think we are both arguing towards the same point but doing it in different ways (and using different definitions of the same terminology). What I tried to say, and I think you will agree with me, is:
- Forgotten Realms novels are considered canon.
- More recent novels are more correct (my grammar sense hates that phrase :twitch than previous novels, bumping them to the top of the canonicity list.
- This shifting canon makes the novel lore inconsistent.
- Inconsistent canon sucks for the reader even if it is a godsend for the author.
-Heh. Actually, it's funny you say exactly that...
I didn't say that by random.
My apologies for being writing gobbledygook. I think we are both arguing towards the same point but doing it in different ways (and using different definitions of the same terminology). What I tried to say, and I think you will agree with me, is:
- Forgotten Realms novels are considered canon.
- More recent novels are more correct (my grammar sense hates that phrase :twitch
- This shifting canon makes the novel lore inconsistent.
- Inconsistent canon sucks for the reader even if it is a godsend for the author.
Somewhat. However, I generally think that canonicity is irrelevant in a system whose rules are grossly violated at regular intervals (which is in manner much worse than stacking overlapping CSS stylesheets).
With that said, I am actually surprised that they imposed heavy story-telling restrictions on D&D-based computer games when they can't even keep their own records straight.
You forgot the "Because writers are lazy bastards who can't be bothered with silly little trivialities like continuity or precedence, canon doesn't actually matter" caveat.
-Eh, that's a little harsh. Having listened to Rich Baker talk about a lot of that stuff, I don't think it's really being lazy as much as genuinely not knowing, in most cases. I think I've said elsewhere, that doesn't really make it right, and it's definitely not an excuse, but...
I didn't say that by random.
-Oh, okay then. :P
I think he may be the only one of the in-house guys that still respects what Ed created.
If I owned Hasbro, Rich is the only one I'd keep out of the FR designers.
I think he may be the only one of the in-house guys that still respects what Ed created.
well in that case if I owned hasbro, I'd be walking around with a small pack of pink slips in my back pocket with names on them......
He may go kicking and screaming, but I think leaving the 'other Baker' in-charge of Eberron will work-out just fine. I have nothing against Eb, except, perhaps, the fact that it gets all the love lately.
Make Brian in-house, Krash in-house, put Ed on permanent retainer...
I can dream, can't I?
I would love to give Dragon Magazine back to the Paizo guys, so it could be done right again, but I think that ship has sailed. Erik has made it clear he would never want that headache back again - losing the contract with Wizbro was the best thing that ever happened to Paizo.
Free Karsus with any purchase of an archmage of equal or greater value!
IBLITH!!!!
I got gypped!
I paid 300 gold for a mere 25 pounds of Karsus last Mirtul!!!
each setting would be turned upside down. I'd sell wotc to Ed Greenwood and the dragonlance duo.
As long as they can pimp-out the FR IP for VidGames and novels, they could give a rat's arse if the D&D game tanks. They probably hope it does so they could just turn it into a toy-line a'la Heroscape. The brand is worth more then the products they put out for it.
Personally, I like the concept behind it though, and have stolen bits of it and YuGiOh! for the Kara-Tur project.
On the other hand, if it takes off (which I doubt, because those lumps of plastic aren't worth the cost), some other company will just make a WAY cheaper version and blow it out of the water.
If I had about $100,000 to throw around, I'd go to China right now and have boxes of 35mm fantasy figures pumped-out tweenty to a box, for just ten bucks each, and I could almost gaurantee that they'd be better quality (I happen to know some very good mini-artists personally).
The only thing holding back the miniatures game from taking over is the ridiculous price - who wants to pay all that money for about 5 cents worth of plastic and a couple of cardboard cards? It just isn't worth it - I can get metal minis for around the same cost (and get the ones I want, and not some box of random crap I already own).
Hasbro would make a LOT more money by cutting the price in half, but they're just too greedy to realize they would make more on quantity. The steep price tag has placed the product beyond most folk's reach as viable toy-option for their kids. Or, conversely, they could provide twice as many figures in a pack - either way, you're just not getting your money's worth with the current strategem.
-Eh, that's a little harsh. Having listened to Rich Baker talk about a lot of that stuff, I don't think it's really being lazy as much as genuinely not knowing, in most cases. I think I've said elsewhere, that doesn't really make it right, and it's definitely not an excuse, but...
And? I'm feeling more than a little harsh at the moment towards the FR brand types... :P
As to my ideal WotC/Hasbro what I would do thing... I'd run it into the ground myself, let D&D die a quick death, and be done with it. Give it a few years to let everyone forget it even existed, and then resurrect it quietly and cater it towards a niche market. I'm feeling a little bitter at the moment too I guess...
I don't know why, but the last two weeks I'm feeling a lot of the old anger (from last year) resurface. It could be the beautiful map that Eberron got, but I think it's something more...
I just can't put my finger on it...
Maybe I'm finally realizing that FR truly is gone for good?
That might be it... that last of my hope has been leeched away...
I'm not really that bitter towards just the FR actually, having thought about it. I'm bitter towards D&D in general, since I've come to realize I never much liked it until 3e, which was the only good incarnation it really had to me, ruleswise (though the fluff was pretty crap compared to 2e). While 3e had its flaws as a ruleset, I'd say they appealed to me much more due to the flexibility they offered in terms of character creation and long-term development. I'm more bitter that 4e doesn't look like SW Saga than I am that it mostly resembles a reskinned and modernized 1e/2e.
I actually like AD&D somewhat more than 3e, since it contains less of the cheesy stuff and that there's a degree of distinctive epicness for certain objects and entities (i.e. artifacts, Larloch).
4e's like... Michael Jackson after his 20th plastic surgery (not to speak ill of the dead).
I actually like AD&D somewhat more than 3e, since it contains less of the cheesy stuff and that there's a degree of distinctive epicness for certain objects and entities (i.e. artifacts, Larloch).
I think 3e could do it better actually... it always felt a lot more epic to me for some reason. I could never get past the blatant humanocentricity of AD&D though to ever appreciate it as much as I might of. That and I thought too much of it was an homage to Tolkien, whom I abhor... too much baggage involved with AD&D for me I guess.
4e's like... Michael Jackson after his 20th plastic surgery (not to speak ill of the dead).
3e fluff was actually pretty good... at least, the stuff in the sourcebooks. Most of the novels sunk to new depths of stupidity, with more god-fights (which the fans have been arguing against since the ToT, and have been ignored) and more RSE's (another things that we kept getting more and more of, despite the constant outcry by fans). If you ignore the novels and just use the sourcebooks, 3e fluff was pretty damn good and there was an effort to keep it all consistent.
4e threw the baby out with the bath water.
It seems that they went full-tilt the other direction, and decided - somehow - that details and consistency were a bad thing in a setting built specifically that way and has garnered millions of fans because of it.
Its almost like the Fire Department painting all the Fire trucks blue... because they found-out everyone likes red.
Or maybe just four fire-marshals liked the color blue better...
Anyhow, its pretty-clear that the new setting wasn't aimed at the older fans - they have said as much. They aimed it the elusive 'new fan' that theoretically exists out there somewhere... who is probably already playing video games and wouldn't want to play in a P&P RPG.
Ah, well... live and learn.
Actually, many of us are looking throught the 'Rose-colored glasses of nostalga'. 2e was filled with goodness, but it also had it's share of bad (take a look at some of the SJ monsters to get an idea). We are only remembering all the good.
3e fluff was actually pretty good... at least, the stuff in the sourcebooks. Most of the novels sunk to new depths of stupidity, with more god-fights (which the fans have been arguing against since the ToT, and have been ignored) and more RSE's (another things that we kept getting more and more of, despite the constant outcry by fans). If you ignore the novels and just use the sourcebooks, 3e fluff was pretty damn good and there was an effort to keep it all consistent.
4e threw the baby out with the bath water.
Waitaminute there. D&D does not consist solely of the Forgotten Realms, no matter how much of a fan you are. Greyhawk was here first, and at least you guys got a setting already. Not to mention the fact that the PHB had a sidebar incorrectly claiming that FR was the first published D&D world-setting. (The Known World, aka Mystara was first, followed by the World of Greyhawk Boxed Set.)
And they keep putting Drow in the FR books, despite the fact that Drow were a player character race in Greyhawk first! (1st ed AD&D Unearthed Arcana, pages 10 & 11.)
It seems that they went full-tilt the other direction, and decided - somehow - that details and consistency were a bad thing in a setting built specifically that way and has garnered millions of fans because of it.
Its almost like the Fire Department painting all the Fire trucks blue... because they found-out everyone likes red.
Or maybe just four fire-marshals liked the color blue better...
Anyhow, its pretty-clear that the new setting wasn't aimed at the older fans - they have said as much. They aimed it the elusive 'new fan' that theoretically exists out there somewhere... who is probably already playing video games and wouldn't want to play in a P&P RPG.
Ah, well... live and learn.
Actually, they said it was because of feedback of the novel writers themselves, as well as a large number of DM's who make their own adventures instead of pre-made modules.
Too many FR Rules Lawyers/Armchair Historians would cite novel after novel and setting-book after setting-book as to why villain A could not be committing act B in location C.
Frankly, too much of the world really has been mapped out to the Nth degree to allow much in the way of creativity. Much like the so-called Society For Creative Anachronism, too many FR Rules Ambulance-Chasers obsessions with minutia and strict ADHERENCE TO CANON was stifling creativity.
Do I regret some of the changes they made? Heck yes, There's a lot of things I would have done differently (among those, Mulhorand would've survived), but something radical needed to be done.
I was a GH DM for 15 years before I was an FR DM... and I agree FR 'borrowed' many things from both Mystara and Greyhawk.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Shades - they are listed in the 2e annual MMs under 'Greyhawk'. ;)
The Realms had their day, as did Greyhawk, but those days are done and its time to move to fresher pastures.
:D
/obnoxious
Now you're gonna GET IT...
;) :P
After all, Greyhawk's premier Ranger, the Justicar, is now a tenured professor at Sigil Prep, teaching a number of urban hunting and information gathering classes (notably the Streetwise skill, and a number of high level feats) while Drizzt was sneaking off to the White Wolf boards taking classes in Angsting For XP 101...
I mailed in the box-tops over a month ago!
There's a Party at mothers.....
I think yours might be defective. :P
Did you get it from a reliable source? It may be a counterfeit.
What?
What did I say...I was talking about this guy -
Isn't taking him out to play what got you in trouble in the first place? :P
It has a string in the back...
So when you pull it, what does it say?
:P
I got mine, But he just started yelling orders at me and calling me "Hearld!!!"
:P