the Church of Shar (including the Dark Moon Monks):
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/excerpts/frpreview_shar.pdf
Bel
The Kir-Lanan couldn't worship gods in 3rd ed, IIRC. Looks to have changed radically.
Another lame retcon.
The Kir-Lanan couldn't worship gods in 3rd ed, IIRC. Looks to have changed radically.
It doesn't actually say they worship her. They 'serve' her. Perhaps they just wait until she has offed all the other deities, before they turn on her?
The Kivar hope that when the kir-lanans see how effective such alliances of convenience can truly be, they are more accepting of the idea. They have hopes that, in the near future, some wings might even permit (very) temporary alliances with those who worship certain deities, such as Cyric. The Kivar cannot help but be in complete agreement with Shar’s desire to war on the other deities, and they are not opposed to working alongside her clergy for that very purpose. And when that happens, the Kivar know that the deities themselves are going to tremble at the havoc the kir-lanans shall wreak. If the Kivar are successful in this plan, only Shar would eventually be left, and by then the kir-lanans’ power should be too great for her to do anything other than submit meekly to her death at the hands of her one-time ally.
Golly, something in 4e FR actually evolved naturally from prior lore. I am amazed.
Though considering that kir-lanans were invented in 3rd edition, and had only 2 sourcebooks to their name, it wasn't too hard for the designers to read up on them.
It's hard for me to be positive or even indifferent about this, because I don't like all the recent focus on Shar and how she always seems to win.
I love the Monks of the Dark Moon, and this new Kir-Lanan development (that, as BadCatMan pointed out, has been a long time in the works) has actually made them interesting and useful to me.
I'll be adding both of these guys to my Realms conversion of Keep on the Shadowfell!
They're not for everyone, but personally seeing intelligent bad guys for a change is nice. They can't all be incompetant Red Wizards, or short sighted shtick loving Zhents. Honestly my faith in the writers competence had begun to slip until the two big bads made a come back.
-RW
Let me say this in a clear tone: SHAR and CYRIC SUCK. Neither of them win on my games, they are always defeated and both are low-intermediate deities in my games.
In your opinion. Plain and simple. You don't want them to win, fine, but that doesn't mean they are a problem. Of all the things wrong, this is hardly one of them.
-RW
In your opinion. Plain and simple. You don't want them to win, fine, but that doesn't mean they are a problem. Of all the things wrong, this is hardly one of them.
-RW
It's my way of going against WotC.
In your opinion. Plain and simple. You don't want them to win, fine, but that doesn't mean they are a problem. Of all the things wrong, this is hardly one of them.
-RW
I agree. This excerpt is one of the least offensive for sure
In your opinion.
Well, isn't that obvious?
18DELTA
Well, isn't that obvious?
Perhaps, but the manner in which it was stated came across as less than polite. It's not his fellow posters who cause the problems, so snapping at us doesn't help the atmosphere.
We all have opinions on one aspect or another, but saying "X SUCKS" Isn't constructive, and serves no purpose but to inflame already soured tempers over an edition change.
WoTC isn't going to read this thread and say "Gee, I never thought of it like that, lets recall all the books, and just scratch out Shar and Cyric for one fan".
-RW
Perhaps, but the manner in which it was stated came across as less than polite. It's not his fellow posters who cause the problems, so snapping at us doesn't help the atmosphere.
Agreed.
No thanks... that makes four now I haven't read...
I know where all the REAL FR designers are hanging out, these days...
WoTC isn't going to read this thread and say "Gee, I never thought of it like that, lets recall all the books, and just scratch out Shar and Cyric for one fan".
Why not?
They seem to have listened to all the NON-fans that said FR was too hard, and their 1st level character wasn't as cool as the Chosen.
Or the Harpers, it seems....
Why not?
They seem to have listened to all the NON-fans that said FR was too hard, and their 1st level character wasn't as cool as the Chosen.
Or the Harpers, it seems....
Well if for no other reason than he is a fan. Wouldn't make sense to change the precedence now, and suddenly listen to the vocal community.
-RW
Well if for no other reason than he is a fan. Wouldn't make sense to change the precedence now, and suddenly listen to the vocal community.
-RW
That would be something logical. WotC don't do logical things.
Even Kir-lanans love Shar, apparently.
It's hard for me to be positive or even indifferent about this, because I don't like all the recent focus on Shar and how she always seems to win.
I will have to agree with you. Kinda tired of Shar and all the uber exposure she gets. Also tired of Cyric. Both have had enough exposure and I would rather Bane, Tiamat or another evil god be in the limelight for awhile.
Why is nothing ever done with Selune?? I wish Sehanine would replace her in 4E. I am guessing Selune will probably reabsorb some of Mystra's energy which will ascend her to a greater deity in 4E.
-RW
They've been pretty consistent in maintaining changes that none here seem to have desired, so I'll put the safe bet on them continuing to not need our opinions. ;)
-RW
or even caring about them
They've been pretty consistent in maintaining changes that none here seem to have desired, so I'll put the safe bet on them continuing to not need our opinions. ;)
And that is exactly the core problem I have with the new 4E Realms setting.
As far as Shar goes, I don't think she's a bad deity, or that she should be removed. I do, however, feel that she's been greatly overused, and has in many ways become cliché. The designers have also never quite managed to sort out the dichotomy between her 'true' dogma, and the self-interested people that seem to follow her. (Paul S. Kemp has done the best at trying to actually illustrate this, from what I've seen, and in making Sharrans that are 'believable')
Cyric... can go die in a fire. ;) By this, I mean Cyric as he seems to get portrayed. I think there's a lot of potential in the concept, and at times he seems like he has shown potential to be a truly awesome evil god. However, he seems to keep getting dragged down into recurring themes of mortal pettiness, moreso than any other God in the pantheon. Both Midnight/Mystra and Kelemvor seemed to get past that, but he never did.
I suppose what it boils down to is that I like having evil gods that I feel I can create followers for, whose reasons for following that god aren't summed up by some combination of insanity and lust for power. :P
This said, I don't find either are overused, or in most cases poorly portrayed. Truthfully, I have found storie involving them to be near the top tier of quality in a bland series of books. Shar has only really been prominent in 3.5 onwards, so I'd hardly say she has dominated anything.
I'd rather see all books focused on her, than any more like the harper series. :P
-RW
The return of Shade (and everything since) made me hate Shar.
And now I hate FR - my life, it seems, is complete.
Who follows an evil god for anything but power? Let's be reasonable here, they're all in it for personal gain, or deeply seeded insanity. It's true across the board. ;)
Perhaps I should clarify - I meant more a God whose dogma you could also conceivably believe in, that presents an understandable (if twisted and amoral) world view - Bane came foremost to mind here. Most real-world examples of 'sane' evil tend to be this way - they have an internally consistent belief system, just one that does not share the values or morals of the rest of society, either in degree, or at all. Cyric's religion never felt that way, and Shar's felt more like it made sense only for those who deluded themselves about its true purpose, or were downright insane.
If it were nothing more than a pure power relationship, eh... then "how are they really any different than a mage who uses priest spells?" is kind of how I would sum up my feeling (nevermind the question of why anyone else would follow them).
-Oh, boy. More Shar.
-You know, I used to like Shar. She was actually one of my favorite deities. I'm certainly suffering from Shar over-exposure, and that's coming from someone who liked her. Imagine what people who didn't from the beginning are thinking!
-And a Kir-Lanan to boot! Hazzah!
-Wait...The Kir-Lanan now serve Shar?
-Well, that kind of defeats their purpose of serving no deities, and being thoroughly atheistic. Oh well...
-Let's see...What else...Ah, apparently Shar and Selûne created the universe, now. Who needs Ao?
-If 2e and 3e information about Shar and her clergy didn't already exist, I'd be very disappointed in this little blurb here. That they already do makes things bearable.
-Oh, boy. More Shar.
-You know, I used to like Shar. She was actually one of my favorite deities. I'm certainly suffering from Shar over-exposure, and that's coming from someone who liked her. Imagine what people who didn't from the beginning are thinking!
I dislike both Shar and the returned shadowvar Netherese. The 4E Realms is just chock full of both.
They're definitely the favorite love child of one of the 4E designers, given that 4E Realms is bloated with both. I guess if you have to have points of light, it's important to bathe the rest of Faerun in huge swaths of darkness. Shadowy shadows are so shadowy!
Always hated the Harpers.
The return of Shade (and everything since) made me hate Shar.
And now I hate FR - my life, it seems, is complete.
Sounds like you converted to Shar;p
Tbh, rarely used Shar, but I did like her! Never minded Cyric (he used to be NE!), but always though Bane was a better god for the Zhentarim. Cyric does sometimes seem a bit superfluous when you had Bhaal and Myrkul though, whom I prefer. Don't mind Kelemvor that much.
Sugar might make a cake taste good, but 40 sacks of it would make people throw-up.
I dislike both Shar and the returned shadowvar Netherese. The 4E Realms is just chock full of both.
-Indeed it is.
-If it were one, or the other, it wouldn't be as bad. Shar, as in the deity Shar, and her own chuch, isn't that bad. And Shade, as in a Netherese survivor state, confused and alone, looking for it's place in the world, isn't that bad. But, merging the two as much as they have been merged, such that Shade is virtually a new wing of the Chuch of Shar, and (seemingly) every member of the Church of Shar is some kind of shadow creature? A bit much.
Shadowy shadows are so shadowy!
-A truer maxim has yet to be spoken.
Tbh, rarely used Shar, but I did like her! Never minded Cyric (he used to be NE!), but always though Bane was a better god for the Zhentarim.
-When the worship of Cyric was most prevalent among the Zhentarim, Bane was dead. And, when he (in both forms) returned, Cyricists (except for a select powerful few) within the organization were persecuted.
I liked her right up until WotC decided to beat us over the head with her.
I'm sure I'll get lambasted by the pro-4ERealmsers for this but, doesn't it seem like the designers are intentionally making the "same" mistake with Shar that they seem to think they did with Mystra?
Personally, I don't believe the whole "Mystra was overused and way too powerful" argument for a minute, but this whole thing with Shar - who really has been overused and never seems to lose - seems very, very ironic to me.
Shar hasn't lost anything, and she's made huge gains over the past 120 years or so. She's not only achieved her millenia-long goal of destroying Mystra, but she also has a huge following and her followers control huge portions of Faerun (shady Netheril, and absorbed Sembia, at the very least). Furthermore, her high priests are very high profile in the new Realms, rather like the complaints made against the Chosen of Mystra.
This time around though, you can't ignore Shar's people like you could Mystra's chosen. Why? They're the -main- bad guys for most of the region of the North. At least in prior editions, one could have Mystra and her Chosen off doing their own things and fighting their own battles, far from the PCs and one's campaign. Not so with the new Realms, because only the PCs are strong enough to stand against the might of Shar's clergy and new Netheril.
Pesky points of light and "PCs are the only heroes" at work.
Sugar might make a cake taste good, but 40 sacks of it would make people throw-up.
40 sacks of sugar put into one small cup of coffee, brought to us by Shar's dark magic.
-If it were one, or the other, it wouldn't be as bad. Shar, as in the deity Shar, and her own chuch, isn't that bad. And Shade, as in a Netherese survivor state, confused and alone, looking for it's place in the world, isn't that bad. But, merging the two as much as they have been merged, such that Shade is virtually a new wing of the Chuch of Shar, and (seemingly) every member of the Church of Shar is some kind of shadow creature? A bit much.
Exactly. There's no need for all those complex nefarious 3E organizations now that they have merged all the badness into one big global enemy.
So what makes the difference between the Shadovar and the Netherese empire then? They have always had a strong link to Shar and her machinations.
So what makes the difference between the Shadovar and the Netherese empire then? They have always had a strong link to Shar and her machinations.
-The Shadovar are Shades from the Shadow Enclave. The new Netheril is a Netheril pretended state, headed by the Shadovar.
-Note that in Netheril: Empire of Magic, while the enclave was still all dark and gloomy, Tyche was the main deity who was worshiped. Not Shar. That part's a 3e update, very in tune with the general strengthening of Shar, in both actual strength and plot strength, in 3e.
I'm sure I'll get lambasted by the pro-4ERealmsers for this but, doesn't it seem like the designers are intentionally making the "same" mistake with Shar that they seem to think they did with Mystra?
That would be my opinion, but it would most likely be argued that it's not a big deal if Shar becomes predominant "because she's a villain and therefore doesn't overshadow (*snerk*) the PCs".
This time around though, you can't ignore Shar's people like you could Mystra's chosen. Why? They're the -main- bad guys for most of the region of the North. At least in prior editions, one could have Mystra and her Chosen off doing their own things and fighting their own battles, far from the PCs and one's campaign. Not so with the new Realms, because only the PCs are strong enough to stand against the might of Shar's clergy and new Netheril.
That was often the complaint leveled at the Harpers. It was virtually impossible to have a powerful villain in a Harper infested region without somehow having them involved (directly or indirectly).
I suppose the main difference, however, is that villains are designed to be defeated. Thus, once your PC's have taken out the Shades they cease to be a non-issue, where as the Harpers are supposed to survive forever.
I guess now you're just starting to see things from the prospective of the other side. The only thing that has happened, it seems, is that the tables got reversed. Whereas previously the world was overflowing with good guys around every corner, and powerful heroes - more than I could ever name - a days ride from every backwater village, the 4E Realms now has villains fighting each other for the chance to destroy you. The heroes that once previously existed are dead, non-existent or greatly diminished in power.
Personally, I'd rather have the latter than the former because the former meant that I would have to run an evil campaign just to kill off most of the good guys if I wanted to play in a region of the world where they were prevalent. (Generally any region heavily touched upon by the novels - Waterdeep, Cormyr, the Dales and the North. Most other regions of the world were 'safe'.)
That was often the complaint leveled at the Harpers. It was virtually impossible to have a powerful villain in a Harper infested region without somehow having them involved (directly or indirectly).
Infested? That seems really odd to me... I never viewed any region as "infested" with Harpers. But for the sake of argument, just because a region had a number of Harpers in it doesn't mean that there couldn't have been tons of Zhent or Thayan agents in a particular area either.
Granted, you couldn't have a really obvious villain standing out in the open and twirling their moustache without them taking notice (although acting on it would have been another matter), but the Realms were never really about that kind of villainy.
Remember that the Harpers -were- also more about maintaining balance and the sharing of land peacefully rather than being the region's pre-eminent vigilantes. Only in some of the novels did they take such a drastic turn.
I suppose the main difference, however, is that villains are designed to be defeated. Thus, once your PC's have taken out the Shades they cease to be a non-issue, where as the Harpers are supposed to survive forever.
Taking out the shades seems epic, which is fine. But everything, all the villains in the region (especially the shadowvar Netherese), have their roots in Shar. Where's the mystery, the complexity, the subtlety of that? It's gone.
I guess now you're just starting to see things from the prospective of the other side. The only thing that has happened, it seems, is that the tables got reversed. Whereas previously the world was overflowing with good guys around every corner, and powerful heroes - more than I could ever name - a days ride from every backwater village, the 4E Realms now has villains fighting each other for the chance to destroy you. The heroes that once previously existed are dead, non-existent or greatly diminished in power.
It's not really even close to "turning the tables", though. Prior to 4E, the Realms were about balance, and the Harpers especially so. The world had a few named good guys who "stood out", but they were not there to be the heroes but rather as a balance to the -organizations- that had an evil bent. It's really a mistake to think of the pre-4E Realms as a land of goodness and light, when it was so incredibly filled with grey. When particular villains got out of hand, the PCs stepped in to stave off the darkness; the "named good guys" were supposed to have their hands full with their own issues.
Now, it's just a world of dark powers where there seems to be no "good" balancing powers except for the PCs. It's -too- simple, too black and white, and it has lost all of the complex layers that it once had as far as deep motivations, clashing objectives of people within the Zhentarim, and the like. Why the evil powers don't just swoop in and crush everything is beyond me. It's a Saturday-morning cartoon, where the only thing maintaining the borders of the good kingdoms is plot necessity.
Personally, I'd rather have the latter than the former because the former meant that I would have to run an evil campaign just to kill off most of the good guys if I wanted to play in a region of the world where they were prevalent. (Generally any region heavily touched upon by the novels - Waterdeep, Cormyr, the Dales and the North. Most other regions of the world were 'safe'.)
Again, I think you had a -very- different picture of the Realms than I did, certainly. I just don't buy into the whole "too many good guys" argument, because it's silly in the extreme.
= I just don't buy into the whole "too many good guys" argument, because it's silly in the extreme.
I don't buy that argument either.
Infested? That seems really odd to me... I never viewed any region as "infested" with Harpers.
Let's put it this way. The Harpers were conceptualized as a secret organization. Over the years, and by the end of 3E, who didn't know the names of their leaders, their bases of location, and all that good stuff? They were more or less an open secret society. Everyone knew that they existed, and as a consequence, almost everyone knew of some place that they could be located.
The Harpers were, quite literally, all over the place. If they were not there directly, they had allies that they could rely on to provide assistance. There were largely the end-all-be-all group for the good-guys in the Realms. And since the Chosen (most of them anyway) were Harpers it just looked like an extension of them, making the whole perception all the worse.
So in the end, how are the Harpers of 3E any different than the Shades and the Church of Shar in 4E? The Church of Shar is everywhere now, and the Shades have switched places with the Chosen.
But for the sake of argument, just because a region had a number of Harpers in it doesn't mean that there couldn't have been tons of Zhent or Thayan agents in a particular area either.
The same is true for 4E. You can say other things are pre-occupying the Shades at the moment, which is what is allowing your group to focus on other matters.
Granted, you couldn't have a really obvious villain standing out in the open and twirling their moustache without them taking notice (although acting on it would have been another matter), but the Realms were never really about that kind of villainy.
You could still have that type of villain in 3E. He just needed to be really powerful, which would allow him to deal with the Harpers and their many powerful allies. Of course, as a result of him being so powerful that meant he was untouchable by low level PC's if you wanted to run a lower level game.
Remember that the Harpers -were- also more about maintaining balance and the sharing of land peacefully rather than being the region's pre-eminent vigilantes. Only in some of the novels did they take such a drastic turn.
Yes, they started out that way. However, let's face it by the end of 3E they were more-or-less the one stop shop for the good guys. And this did not start with 3E, it started under TSR as they set the Harpers up to constantly foil the Zhents and make them look incompetent.
This also more-or-less turned the Harpers into an organization that focused heavily upon the Zhents, almost to the exclusion of all other threats, similar to how the Harpers are focused upon the Shades in 4E.
Taking out the shades seems epic, which is fine. But everything, all the villains in the region (especially the shadowvar Netherese), have their roots in Shar. Where's the mystery, the complexity, the subtlety of that? It's gone.
Sure, it's gone. I think it's stupid. However, that isn't the issue here. The point is that they've just switched everything around. In previous editions this was the Harpers almost to a "T". The Chosen of Mystra and even many druid circles all had ties to the Harpers. It was almost impossible to find a good aligned organization that did not, in some way, directly or indirectly, knowingly or unknowingly, have Harper connections.
It's not really even close to "turning the tables", though. Prior to 4E, the Realms were about balance, and the Harpers especially so. The world had a few named good guys who "stood out", but they were not there to be the heroes but rather as a balance to the -organizations- that had an evil bent.
The world was most certainly not in balance. There were a few powerful evil organizations, certainly, but they were constantly foiled at every turn. This was specifically because of TSR's policy that evil must never win or be shown to profit from evil deeds.
If you think about Rich Baker and his comments about the Harpers, how that many FR designers wanted to disband them because of their recent losses. Just look at the history of the Zhents. Look how badly they've been screwed up compared to the Harpers. Then it has to be asked... why weren't the Zhents disbanded two editions ago?
A mistake was made when a handful of NPC's were created to oppose ENTIRE ORGANIZATIONS. One individual should not be able to hold an organization in check, such as the Simbul did with Thay.
I've always viewed high level NPC's that acted in this manor being similar to nuclear weapons in the real world. Their power is such that unleashing it can bring about massive ruin and destruction. No organization, good or evil, wants the other side to have this power. However, once one side gets it, the other inevitably must have it as well. Thus, you have the proverbial arms race to see which side can out epic-level the other, which resulted in many of the problems I had with the Realms.
If you go back to the 1E Realms, you really didn't see things like this. Balance is when good and evil are on equal footing, neither side having the advantage. It is clear that, from the numerous victories of team good (minus the ending of 3E) that the balance was clearly tipped in their favor.
It's really a mistake to think of the pre-4E Realms as a land of goodness and light, when it was so incredibly filled with grey. When particular villains got out of hand, the PCs stepped in to stave off the darkness; the "named good guys" were supposed to have their hands full with their own issues.
The pre-4E Realms was not Candyland, no. It had it's share of issues. However, it was more of a "light grey". There was no real sense of foreboding because you knew, if you failed, there was always someone else out there to pick up the pieces, be it the Harpers or some epic level heroic NPC.
This was the root of the problem. Now, it can easily be argued one way or another. However, in the end, it comes down to personal taste. Personally, I like it when it feels as if you are the last hope, the last resort because all other things have failed. Your actions matter and if you screw it up, there will be serious repercussions. You are the hero, you are the star, and you are the one everyone is looking toward to set things right.
This was achievable in earlier versions of the Realms, but as it was expanded upon by the novels and such, it became more and more difficult, until you were literally forced out of certain regions of the world which had become over saturated by do-gooders.
C'mon... what could be kewler then that? :D
Edit:
Who do you call when you have a Harper infestation?
The X-Terminators?
Cyric was never cool - if you read the Avatar Trilogy, you'd hate the little stalking rodent too.
He's kind of like FR's version of the Joker - a murderous psychopath who isn't in the least bit entertaining.
On he other hand, Kelemvor is like taking a whole bottle of sleeping pills...
The Deity of Lies, Intrigue, Death (especially Murder), the Dead, Deception, Illusions and Strife.
I'd assume you'd have a cold, level headed psychopath. I am imagining a Hannibal Lector type of deity. That'd rock.
"A goddess of magic once crossed me, thinking she could defeat me. In the end I ate her liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti."
"Have you seen blood in the moonlight? It appears quite black."
"On a similar note I must confess to you, I'm giving very serious thought... to eating your wife."
:P
Lector is my all time favorite villain ever. If only the Realms had real villains like that, villains that were scary both in personality and intelligence, not so much in terms of physical or magical power, the setting would have been so much better off.
I think Cartman is an eviler villain (did you see the one where he was acting like the psycho from SotL?)
I think the Joker is pretty entertaining
Which version?
I liked him right up until they decided to start making the comics dark (early 90's?) - you know, when the Joker Shot and killed Robin, and broke Comissioner Gordon's legs and then made him watch as the Joker raped his daughter (Batgirl).
It was kinda hard for me to like him after that.
Which version?
I liked him right up until they decided to start making the comics dark (early 90's?) - you know, when the Joker Shot and killed Robin, and broke Comissioner Gordon's legs and then made him watch as the Joker raped his daughter (Batgirl).
It was kinda hard for me to like him after that.
That was the best version. Damn robin. I guess I know how you voted
;) :P
Has anyone ever told you that you're just a little bit sick?
;) :P
Not Today.
I'm pretty sure Rino did yesterday.
-RW
I'm sure I'll get lambasted by the pro-4ERealmsers for this but, doesn't it seem like the designers are intentionally making the "same" mistake with Shar that they seem to think they did with Mystra?
Personally, I don't believe the whole "Mystra was overused and way too powerful" argument for a minute, but this whole thing with Shar - who really has been overused and never seems to lose - seems very, very ironic to me.
Shar hasn't lost anything, and she's made huge gains over the past 120 years or so. She's not only achieved her millenia-long goal of destroying Mystra, but she also has a huge following and her followers control huge portions of Faerun (shady Netheril, and absorbed Sembia, at the very least). Furthermore, her high priests are very high profile in the new Realms, rather like the complaints made against the Chosen of Mystra.
This time around though, you can't ignore Shar's people like you could Mystra's chosen. Why? They're the -main- bad guys for most of the region of the North. At least in prior editions, one could have Mystra and her Chosen off doing their own things and fighting their own battles, far from the PCs and one's campaign. Not so with the new Realms, because only the PCs are strong enough to stand against the might of Shar's clergy and new Netheril.
I used to like Shar but now she is just so overused. She just does everything now.
yes Shar is the new Mystra - she is everywhere. So now we will have the Dark Chosen
So now we will have the Dark Chosen
-That gave me an Idea. Lets kick the crud out of Shar's Chosen. That sounds like fun!
-We still have to 'Factor' the Living Realms into all of this.
18DELTA ;)
Previously, this role was filled more by the followers of Bane and Cyric (the Zhents). However, as time went on and their losses mounted, and they became laughing jokes, it was difficult to imagine them really being successful. Thus, another big bad had to rise up to take that role. Enter Shar.
Just look at some of the reactions people had to Cyric's involvement in the Helm / Tymora / Tyr plot. He's the god of deception, lies, intrigue, illusions, strife and murder. Why couldn't he successfully pull something crazy like that off? Yet, most people doubt that he could do it because of the way he's been portrayed - a bumbling idiot. A sad legacy of TSR's policy that evil must never win or be shown to profit from their evil deeds. Shar, thankfully, was largely left untouched by them, which allowed her to fill this new role.
I do not think most people here would doubt Shar's ability to take out Mystra. In a fair and even fight (something Shar wouldn't even allow to happen to begin with) they'd more-or-less be evenly matched in terms of power. The scale tips toward Shar due to millennia of experience. However, the balance is maintained due to Mystra's large number of allies.
With Mystra gone the role of opposing Shar has obviously fallen to Selune.
Over the years, and by the end of 3E, who didn't know the names of their leaders, their bases of location, and all that good stuff? They were more or less an open secret society. Everyone knew that they existed, and as a consequence, almost everyone knew of some place that they could be located.
-Two things:
(A) Concerning a lot of that WE, the readers knew the relevant information, but those in Faerûn did not, necessarily.
(B) As a reader, I can't tell you, without looking it up, the leaders of the Harpers, their bases of operations, and all of that good stuff.
So now we will have the Dark Chosen
-Shar already has a single confirmed Chosen. Underdark states this.
The repulsive feelings toward Shar that many people now hold, was equally the same for those who were repulsed by Mystra, for exactly the same reasons.
Lathander, Nobanion and Ilmater were all great deities that never got a chance to step up and play a real role in the setting thanks to its single minded focus on a small number, but primarily one, good aligned deity.
It's this way for both good and evil. You can bet in 4E that Selune will be the it girl for team good now that Mystra is dead. At least there is a strong lore basis for that. Just look at how much the conflict between Selune and Shar was downplayed throughout the history of the Forgotten Realms (as a gaming product) in favor of the conflict between Shar and Mystra. It shows how other deities are often kicked to the wayside.
-That gave me an Idea. Lets kick the crud out of Shar's Chosen. That sounds like fun!
-We still have to 'Factor' the Living Realms into all of this.
18DELTA ;)
I got a 4e cleric of Sehanine - she is going to kick the crud out of EVERY Shar lover she meets. :D
I got a 4e cleric of Sehanine - she is going to kick the crud out of EVERY Shar lover she meets. :D
-Sehanine? Who's that? I don't know no Sehanine's. I do know Selûne, though...;) :P
It was one of my big problems with Mystra. Since the Time of Troubles she was turned into the it girl, the end all, be all, of team good. It caused so many great good aligned deities to be downplayed, all of whom could have contributed far more to the cause of good.
Yep - I definitely think Mystra was played up way too much. It feels a lot like they tried to turn it into the "Mystra vs Cyric Show" in 2E, then moved to the "Mystra vs Shar Show" in 3rd. I don't think there was any inherent problem with the concepts of these deities, though - I think it was all in the way they were portrayed, and played up/played down. I think, though, that they're still sort of making the same sorts of mistakes now, just changing the names of the people involved. I also think they'd have been better served to try and play down both Mystra and Shar, and make them much more 'average' gods, on par with Lathander and Ilmater, or Bane and Talos (just to toss out a few names).
I don't think there was any inherent problem with the concepts of these deities, though - I think it was all in the way they were portrayed, and played up/played down.
-Mystra aggravated me in that elements of existence that she should have no purview over were attributed to her. In short, she was spread too much, among the world. For example, the infamous "the world needs the Weave to live" statement, other deities needing the Weave to allow their own followers to cast Divine Magic spells, Mystra being able to cut other deities off from using magic...
Had she not made a move, I'm sure there would be an equal frenzy of complaints from the opposing side, asking when she'd ever get around to finally following up on that dark and devious plan of hers.
I agree with wotc in that she made a perfect catalyst, for an edition change. We may not all agree with said changes, but I hope at least some can concede to that.
-RW
-Mystra aggravated me in that elements of existence that she should have no purview over were attributed to her. In short, she was spread too much, among the world. For example, the infamous "the world needs the Weave to live" statement, other deities needing the Weave to allow their own followers to cast Divine Magic spells, Mystra being able to cut other deities off from using magic...
Yeah - that struck me as totally unnecessary, aside from being the plot of one, singular novel. "She has this all-powerful ability to control who can and can't use magic, even the other gods - but she can't or wouldn't ever stop someone from using it." So, uh, why even add that element then? Personally, I think it detracted a good deal from her standing as the goddess of magic. She should've been allowed to be the goddess of magic - not "The Champion of All Things Good and Pure (plus magic)." :P
That's not to say I didn't like Midnight, or Midnight/Mystra... I just think it got blown way, way out of proportion. A little bit of spice adds flavor - dump in a bucketful, and you ruin the dish.
With so many different people developing the setting over the past 20 years, and each of them adding their own spin to everything, so much of the setting - the gods especially - became to all-inclusive.
Everything positive got lumped into Mystra (Chosen, Harpers, etc), and everything evil got lumped into Shar. Rather then have lots and lots of 'little things' going everywhere, as the Realms were intended, both the good and the bad became 'monolithic' in nature.
And somewhere along the way, the very flavor of the Realms was lost. Now we have the Uber-threat of Netheril (which has also been lumped into Shar's portfolio), and instead of lots of 'points of light' fighting little battles, we have big, uber Cormyr holding the world together and keeping Netheril at bay.
I think all they did was compound the errors of the past. The Realms were NEVER about great, big, giant things - but the novels turned it into that. I've been reading through a lot of Ed's stuff lately, and his concept of the Realms was that it wasn't a story, it was a thousand thousand stories. It was never meant to be about killing gods and toppling kingdoms, it was meant to be about groups of adventurers exploring a world filled with the ruins of the past.
Now WotC has brought back that past (Netheril, Imaskar, Myth Drannor, Miyeritar, etc) ad nauseum, and all the wonder is gone. Who has time to explore ruins, when you got the guys who built those ruins breathing down your neck again?
I feel like the new setting is a set-up for a minitures game, with all the armies and sides drawn. All the intrigue, the wheels-within-wheels... the magic... is gone.
We went from a fantasy world, to a boring amalgam of the real one. Instead o a thosuand shades of grey, everything is black and white, and everyone knows which side their on. The fact that they don't even realize what they've done means they never really understood it to begin with.
There's really very little of interest left in this burnt-out husk of a world.
-Sehanine? Who's that? I don't know no Sehanine's. I do know Selûne, though...;) :P
Does anyone else find it a bit scarey that all the Gods suffer from multiple personality disorder?
I agree. Like Red Wizard I think Shar makes a great choice for the edition change. She is powerful, ancient, cunning, intelligent, patient and above all things capable.
However, I think it diminishes her and her very nature to make her the center focus of the 4E Realms. Certainly, Shar is a very important fixture in divine politics. She always has been, even when she wasn't out in the forefront. But that is Shar - she hangs back, working from shadows and darkness, spinning plots that span decades and even centuries into the future. She's probably killed more deities than any other god in the Realms, but Shar only fights on her terms - and only when she is certain of victory. After all, she doesn't believe in promises of success. If or when Shar comes for you, it'll be when you least expect it, when you are most vulnerable, and when you have no chance of success. That is simply the way she operates - not out in the open. It is also what makes her dangerous.
While you are focused on the more obvious evil deities such as Bane, Shar is never inactive, and her plans move forward silently and in secret. If there was one deity in the entire setting that could have killed Mystra, even the overly powerful Mystra created by TSR it was Shar. Which is why that development is at least believable, especially with the aid and alliance of Cyric, who was himself almost a rival to Mystra in terms of power (but not quite).
Really, all of the problems we are talking about now can be traced directly back to TSR's policy of Evil must never win or be seen to profit from their evil deeds. This is why, after Cyric became a deity, Mystra had to work against him. He could not be shown to have benefited from his ascension and therefore Mystra needed to knock him down a peg. Additionally, Midnight was Lawful Neutral but became Neutral Good as Mystra largely because Cyric was Evil. They had to use a direct counter to Cyric and his evil and thus Mystra filled that role.
That is my opinion, at least.
-Sehanine? Who's that? I don't know no Sehanine's. I do know Selûne, though...;) :P
Hmm I heard Karsus was actually an aspect of Savras in 4E :P
Thats why LK likes Corellon so much. :D
The Realms were NEVER about great, big, giant things - but the novels turned it into that.
This is absolutely correct and I could not agree more. It is one reason I refuse to buy the novels. I refuse to pay money for something that is destroying the setting.
Everything positive got lumped into Mystra (Chosen, Harpers, etc), and everything evil got lumped into Shar. Rather then have lots and lots of 'little things' going everywhere, as the Realms were intended, both the good and the bad became 'monolithic' in nature.
This is why I've had to basically blow up my Realms. I had to get rid of all the monolithic organizations, all the stock piled magical items they possessed, and all the NPC's that ran them. I had to completely wipe the slate clean, and from the ashes of everything that was destroyed, I am going to have to build the Realms anew.
Although I disagree that all things evil were lumped into Shar. In the beginning all things evil were lumped into the Zhents, the Red Wizards, the Cult of the Dragon, Bane and Cyric and their Churches. However, by the time 3E came around, all of those organizations had been turned into such jokes by the TSR policy against evil that WotC obviously had to look to a new threat that could be creditable.
Why else did the Shades return? They are an evil mageocracy with dreams of conquest. Doesn't that sound a lot like the Red Wizards of Thay? To free them from Mystra the Shadow Weave was necessary, and it was linked to the only plausible deity that could pull off such a thing: Shar. After all, when you think about it, and you scratch past the surface the Shades do not make good Sharrans, even though they make decent villains because they generally aren't stupid. They dream of bringing back Netheril and conquering the world. That pretty much goes in direct contrast with the dreams of Shar, who wishes to see the destruction of everything.
Of course, this is just my opinion.
Maybe thats how he got his third eye - Corellon plucked it out of Gruumsh's head and stuck it on Savras. :P
Thats why LK likes Corellon so much. :D
Hehe :D
Shar, much like Drizzt, was cool, but now both have been over-used to the point where they are BORING.
Cyric was never cool - if you read the Avatar Trilogy, you'd hate the little stalking rodent too.
He's kind of like FR's version of the Joker - a murderous psychopath who isn't in the least bit entertaining.
On he other hand, Kelemvor is like taking a whole bottle of sleeping pills...
I have read the Avatar trillogy, and again, I dont understand the hate he gets (Shar being overused is a matter of opinion, one that I held about Mystra). The only thing I can figure is that he gets all the hate because he does his job so well (and in the Avatar Trilogy he makes alot of the gods (Bane in particular) seem juvenile and just plain stupid(Sad thing is Bane does a fine job of that himself)).
Cyric=rocks.
I do agree however that Kelemvor is boring.
Just look at some of the reactions people had to Cyric's involvement in the Helm / Tymora / Tyr plot. He's the god of deception, lies, intrigue, illusions, strife and murder. Why couldn't he successfully pull something crazy like that off? Yet, most people doubt that he could do it because of the way he's been portrayed - a bumbling idiot. A sad legacy of TSR's policy that evil must never win or be shown to profit from their evil deeds. Shar, thankfully, was largely left untouched by them, which allowed her to fill this new role.
That's also one of the biggest stroke of luck for Bane. The novels that portrayed him didn't have him perform any better than Cyric (especially in the Pools of [...] novels he looked like a spoiled three year old) and thus being dead and not subject to any further novels helped him save his face.
Lets wait and see how much Shar will suffer from being in the spotlight. If she will feature as one of the main villians for LFR it certainly means uncountable defeats for her church
Hopefully Cyric can use his holiday to recover and rebuild his reputation until he bursts from his divine prison as the ultimate storm of darkness to extinguish the points of light
I do agree however that Kelemvor is boring.
As a big fan of Cyric I still have to disagree. Kelemvor is the best death god every, neither Jergal nor Myrkul come close.
I found absolutely nothing interesting about ANY of the Avatar trio after the ToT was over. Before, all three of them were cool as mortals (well... Kelemvor was when he had the curse), but once they attained Godhood they became a big, fat *meh*.
While on the other hand, I found the Dark Three very entertaining, and was sorry to see them go.
I also don't protray the gods as they are in novels, though, so that helps. NONE of them are spoiled little children - I HATE that take on them.
Jergal's cool to, because he is such an enigma - Fortunately one of the few thngs the new designers decided not to explain in 3e (thank god).
Go Go Deep Imaskar!!!
Sidenote - Please consider releasing Pandorym to devour the gods that you do not like in 4e.
Sidenote Sidenote - IMO Illithids, Aboleths, Phaerimm, etc were some of the best villains. I am sorry but I have the most love for Imaskar because phaerimms and Pando, among other things.
Or more like Battlestar Galactica vs the Ceylon Base-ships. :D
Lets see - a group of uber-poweful mages in flying cities living in a desert region created by a magical disaster...
Where have I heard that before... :D
Kinda hard for them to build flying cities underground, isn't it?
Maybe they're really tiny flying cities, just like in that Thundarr the Barbarian episode. :D
Lets see - a group of uber-poweful mages in flying cities living in a desert region created by a magical disaster...
Where have I heard that before... :D
It was in the works for "Returned Abeir: Maztica 3275 A.D.M." (after the death of Mystra), but the designers scrapped it:
Bel
Maybe they're really tiny flying cities, just like in that Thundarr the Barbarian episode. :D
Don't remember that; was it this episode -
I think this guy could give Savras a run for his money...
Or make a beholder fall in love. :D
@LK - embrace your inner need for Thundarr love.
18DELTA
Bel
[...] Or make a beholder fall in love. :D [...]
Better not think of this... 
Fire_Wraith-
I agree. Like Red Wizard I think Shar makes a great choice for the edition change. She is powerful, ancient, cunning, intelligent, patient and above all things capable.
However, I think it diminishes her and her very nature to make her the center focus of the 4E Realms. Certainly, Shar is a very important fixture in divine politics. She always has been, even when she wasn't out in the forefront. But that is Shar - she hangs back, working from shadows and darkness, spinning plots that span decades and even centuries into the future. She's probably killed more deities than any other god in the Realms, but Shar only fights on her terms - and only when she is certain of victory. After all, she doesn't believe in promises of success. If or when Shar comes for you, it'll be when you least expect it, when you are most vulnerable, and when you have no chance of success. That is simply the way she operates - not out in the open. It is also what makes her dangerous.
While you are focused on the more obvious evil deities such as Bane, Shar is never inactive, and her plans move forward silently and in secret. If there was one deity in the entire setting that could have killed Mystra, even the overly powerful Mystra created by TSR it was Shar. Which is why that development is at least believable, especially with the aid and alliance of Cyric, who was himself almost a rival to Mystra in terms of power (but not quite).
Really, all of the problems we are talking about now can be traced directly back to TSR's policy of Evil must never win or be seen to profit from their evil deeds. This is why, after Cyric became a deity, Mystra had to work against him. He could not be shown to have benefited from his ascension and therefore Mystra needed to knock him down a peg. Additionally, Midnight was Lawful Neutral but became Neutral Good as Mystra largely because Cyric was Evil. They had to use a direct counter to Cyric and his evil and thus Mystra filled that role.
That is my opinion, at least.
Never in Dweomerhearth. That's the biggest issue I have with this whole ****.
I think Shar and Cyric are both fine for what they are, I just don't believe any one deity (good, evil, or neutral) should constantly be in the limelight in this setting.
-And, let's be frank, it's not like there's a lack of deities in the Forgotten Realms.
-And, let's be frank, it's not like there's a lack of deities in the Forgotten Realms.
Tell that to the company that made Dragonlance, the pantheons where divided by alignment on that setting, and it was Paladine and Thakisis the only ones who constantly appeared on every novel.
Tell that to the company that made Dragonlance, the pantheons where divided by alignment on that setting, and it was Paladine and Thakisis the only ones who constantly appeared on every novel.
-TSR? TSR is gone, dude. :P
-But, I don't read Dragonlance, so I don't know much about that, and I wouldn't make claims about things I don't know, positive or negative.
-TSR? TSR is gone, dude. :P
-But, I don't read Dragonlance, so I don't know much about that, and I wouldn't make claims about things I don't know, positive or negative.
I've read them and I have a friend from Spain that owns every Dragonlance product ever released that always tells me a couple things from the setting.
And WotC continued with that politic of overusing one or two aspects of the setting while ignoring the rest.
We buy the books, because we want the lore, and they get the mistaken idea that that is all we like, when the reality is that we want to know about everything, and have to take whatever they feel like giving us.
Which leads them to say "Hey! :lightbulb They bought this book about such-N-such, so I'll write another". Then another, and another...
And we wind up with Drizzt.
Or a novel that just has the word 'Shadow' over and over agian for 500 or so pages. What they mistakenly take for 'interest' is really just us 'slumming' for every bit of Realmslore we can get.
Had they taken the time to write a new sourcebook about the Bloodstone Lands, or the Vilhon Reach, we would have gladly purchased it - but they were NOT interested in writing one. Had we a good set of novels that took place in Maztica, perhaps it would have generated some interest, or even something set in the East.
What they assumed was our lack of interest was really their lack of willingness to write about those places and people. They convinced themselves we were in love with Shar and Shadowcrap, because we bought it - but only because their was nought else.
Thats like saying a tribesman in deepest Africa doesn't like Cheesburgers, because all he eats are the local flora and fauna. The WotC team has judged what we do like by what little we have been fed, and never bothered to give us that 'cheesburger'. They fail to see that a hungry man will eat just about anything.
Now they've decided we like twinkies and devil dogs.
And if we keep buying it, they'll just keep producing whatever schlock they like....
-And, let's be frank, it's not like there's a lack of deities in the Forgotten Realms.
And, on Candlekeep, I noticed that readers who left feedback about the novels were usually pleasantly surprised when a more obscure deity had a role to play in the story.
Now they've decided we like twinkies and devil dogs.
Hey now, fried twinkies are pretty good...
Marines, though, not so much - too stringy. :D
And if we keep buying it, they'll just keep producing whatever schlock they like....
Precisely. The days where I would buy anything they put out, just because it was yet another piece of FR lore, are dead and gone.
Yup - its usually a setting as a whole that captures people's imaginations, and then designers and authors latch onto the couple of things they personally like and run with them, ignoring the rest.
Yes, that's what I was thinking. That's one possible reason why certain aspects of the setting start to get focused on to the exclusion of other, equally interesting aspects.
And, on Candlekeep, I noticed that readers who left feedback about the novels were usually pleasantly surprised when a more obscure deity had a role to play in the story.
-I was happy to see Siamorphe in the Twilight War trilogy. Though, there were certainly "issues" there, but...
Never in Dweomerhearth. That's the biggest issue I have with this whole ****.
I've already explained this countless times: The fact that Shar had the Karsus Stone made everything possible. Let's not also forget that Cyric knew Midnight's True Name, and we don't know if her True Name also effected her as a deity (but it's very possible).
The Karsus Stone, still being connected to the Weave as it was, easily allowed Shar to attack Mystra from her own divine Realm, while Cyric managed to get into Dweomerheart and strike her there. With a direct assault on the Weave (her body), her attention would have been focused there, giving Cyric enough advantage to slay her.
Between them both attacking her, Mystra really did not stand a chance, even in the most advantageous of circumstances.
I've already explained this countless times: The fact that Shar had the Karsus Stone made everything possible.
-Well, no, not really. It doesn't make everything that has happened possible, but it makes it all much more plausible.
In the end, the fact that Shar had the Karsus Stone and Cyric may have been able to use her True Name... what chance did Mystra -really- have? On a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being zero chance of success and ten being certain success, I'd have to give her a two. The only reason she doesn't receive a one is because some of her allies -could have- come to her rescue.
Of course, it also seems Shar and Cyric tried to take care of that with the whole Helm / Tyr / Tymora debacle.
On the best of days Shar and Mystra were roughly equal in power, with Shar maybe edging ahead due to her longer experience as a deity. Mystra, however, was always protected by her vast number of allies. The fact that Shar gained an ally of her own (Cyric) and then those two caused trouble elsewhere (Helm / Tymora / Tyr) provided more than enough cover for them to strike.
Together, both Shar and Cyric, giving the conditions that they both had, likely would not have even broken a sweat. The cards were just stacked against Mystra. I cannot imagine a scenario in which Mystra won - survived perhaps - if a bunch of her allies had showed up to fend off Cyric. However, how would they have known what Shar and Cyric had planned out? One is a deity of lies, deception, intrigue and illusions and the other is a deity of secrets and forgetfulness. That virtually ensured that any plan they hatched together was not discovered - until it was too late.
Together, both Shar and Cyric, giving the conditions that they both had, likely would not have even broken a sweat. The cards were just stacked against Mystra. I cannot imagine a scenario in which Mystra won - survived perhaps - if a bunch of her allies had showed up to fend off Cyric.
-It's funny. Given the same exact conditions, I cannot imagine a plausible scenario in which Mystra did not prevail, other than the "interference" of "plot armor" and such.
So in order to be a monk, you have to worship SHAR?
Cuckoo, cuckoo...
I hate 4th Edition. It's not internally consistent, and doesn't make sense.
If the church of Shar are such intelligent bad guys, why are all of the Dark Moon Brothers LEVEL 6 CREATURES?
-Because they're monsters now. You know. Rawr?
-It's funny. Given the same exact conditions, I cannot imagine a plausible scenario in which Mystra did not prevail, other than the "interference" of "plot armor" and such.
How would Mystra win?
I mean, don't get me wrong. I realize that over time her power has been beefed up out of proportion to her true strength, giving her an inflated level of importance. However, that being said, Shar and Mystra were always roughly on equal level in terms of raw power, and Cyric was weaker than both - but still a formidable challenge to either. (In 3E this was emulated by giving both Shar and Mystra Divine Rankings of 18 and Cyric a Divine Rank of 17.)
I'm not really sure how she could stand up, toe-to-toe against both of them.
How would Mystra win?
I mean, don't get me wrong. I realize that over time her power has been beefed up out of proportion to her true strength, giving her an inflated level of importance. However, that being said, Shar and Mystra were always roughly on equal level in terms of raw power, and Cyric was weaker than both - but still a formidable challenge to either. (In 3E this was emulated by giving both Shar and Mystra Divine Rankings of 18 and Cyric a Divine Rank of 17.)
I'm not really sure how she could stand up, toe-to-toe against both of them.
-Mystra, being in her home plane, living with the deity of Oracles and Divinations, with numerous allies that can be called upon instantaneously, are among some of the reasons why there is no reason to believe that without the designers wanting to further the plot and applying "plot armor", or whatever the term would be, Mystra should have prevailed. And, remember, I don't like Mystra at all, either.
But you see that's just the thing. Deities can block other deities portfolio senses. Savras was just a demigod. He would have had to see through the mechanizations of BOTH the goddess of forgetfulness and secrets AND the god of lies, deception, intrigue and illusions. Both of whom were greater gods and could have easily prevented him from foreseeing what would happen. (At least right up until it was too late - in which case it would explain why he was destroyed along with Mystra.)
As for the allies, sure she had allies that could have been called upon, but as I pointed out the whole Helm / Tymora / Tyr debacle probably had all of them in chaos fussing over that situation. It was a distraction tactic - they feign an attack on one flank, only to have the real attack happen on another. Plus, without adequate warning ahead of time, I'm not sure what could have been done.
After all, if Savras didn't know until it was too late, what chance did the rest of Mystra's allies have?
-Mystra, being in her home plane, living with the deity of Oracles and Divinations, with numerous allies that can be called upon instantaneously, are among some of the reasons why there is no reason to believe that without the designers wanting to further the plot and applying "plot armor", or whatever the term would be, Mystra should have prevailed. And, remember, I don't like Mystra at all, either.
I think you forget that Cyric is a god of Magic. He held the Illusion portfolio, meaning he had free reign to enter dweomerheart unannounced. Additionally, backed by Shar, and who knows, perhaps bolstered by Mask, he should have had no trouble slipping in to do the deed.
I for one want to see that novel. I enjoyed the quintet that saw his ascendence, and "The Trials of Cyric the Mad" was one of my favourite reads for the Realms.
-RW
After all, if Savras didn't know until it was too late, what chance did the rest of Mystra's allies have?
-Instantaneous teleportation takes how long?
I think you forget that Cyric is a god of Magic. He held the Illusion portfolio, meaning he had free reign to enter dweomerheart unannounced.
-Unless you want to start adding unknown details to the canon story (liek Velsharoon letting them in, which is a detail I like and support), Mystra can bar any entities from her plane that she wishes. I'd find it humorous that Shar and Cyric not be on this "list". Especially given, over the thousands of years, nobody has assaulted Mystra in her homeplane before.
-RW
-Unless you want to start adding unknown details to the canon story (liek Velsharoon letting them in, which is a detail I like and support), Mystra can bar any entities from her plane that she wishes. I'd find it humorous that Shar and Cyric not be on this "list". Especially given, over the thousands of years, nobody has assaulted Mystra in her homeplane before.
I know she can bar any being from her plane, and it was said she did in Trials I believe. However as I recall (I'll have to find where this came up) the loophole is that gods of Magic are allowed there regardless.
So in effect it was slamming and locking the front door, and forgetting to close the back. She has always been prone to mistakes, is it impossible to believe she may have overlooked this? Especially since it was never revealed openly (That I remember) that he'd absorbed the portfolio of illusion.
-RW
Instantaneous teleportation takes how long?
Sure, they could instantly teleport to the side of Mystra. I guess we can assume that's what Savras did - a lot of good it did him, right? The fact of the matter is, by the time they realize what has happened it's already too late to save her. I don't imagine this to be a long drawn out epic battle.
I imagine it playing out along these lines: Cyric and Shar are on the same plane to coordinate their attacks. Cyric leaves said plane - in full strength - to enter Dweomerheart. At the same time Shar begins her assault on Mystra from another plane, distracting and nearly killing her. Cyric appears next to Mystra, cuts her throat, and teleports out just as Savras teleports in - Mystra dies right before Savras eyes - and explodes in her 'blue fire' killing him and flinging Velsharoon and Azuth from Dweomerheart. All of this happens within the span of roughly two to three seconds.
It's a rather un-epic death, sure, but hey - sometimes that's how things roll. In effect Mystra dies before she even has a chance to react, let alone any other deities having that chance (save for Savras).
If we operate under 4.0 assumptions, Shar is the goddess of shadows and Cyric is the god of strife. Now, since those are the spheres of influence how exactly are we to believe they entered and murdered Mystra? In 3.5 it would have been plausable to an extent (though not that all the gods on the plane perished). However, since 4.0 sees a drastic reduction in the portfolios of the gods (spheres), their range of abilities is not the same anymore.
The logical conclusion of this: All of that changed after the reordering of the planes, which didn't happen until AFTER Mystra's death.
I just think many people have a hard time accepting it because of how hyped Mystra was, and that she was given an inflated (and undeserved) amount of importance.
So it's a bit hard to rationalize things as you go from...
"In place of a multitude of Gods you shall have but one, a Divine Queen! And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me and despair!"
...to...
"I was just having my afternoon tea, when I heard a knock at the door... then everything went black..."
I also have no true issue with Mystra being slain. After all, it has happened before. My issue is that they just didn't kill her, they killed every god associated with magic in the entire setting. Correllon does not even have magic as part of his sphere anymore. In addition, we're to believe that unlike all her predecessors, Mystra had no contingency plan to reincarnate, transfer, or otherwise pass on her powers if she died. In mean cmon, during the ToT even with a fist in her chest from Helm her powers transferred to a new chosen individual. It would have made more sense if her power had transferred among her chosen or Azuth for example. Also, what about the balance and Ao. It only makes sense that he would have elevated a new god of magic. Again, I just would have liked continuity between editions instead of retconning and wiping the slate clean of years of lore and common sense.
Actually, I guess my dislike of Mystra stems largely from the fact that she got so much attention, and she wasn't even that interesting of a deity. She was a spotlight hog. Her only real character depth was the fact that she was good aligned and had to allow evil things happen with the Weave, yet I don't think I've ever saw her develop one way or another in that direction. It would have been more interesting if she was torn with internal conflict and struggle - trying to balance her duties as a goddess of magic with her moral beliefs. I never really saw any of that in her. She could have been made neutral and it wouldn't have made a bit of difference.
If I had it my way, the Weave would not be under the control of any deity, but would exist as an independent construct with limited sentience. Thus, when it is damaged it can repair itself. Then a deity could have been elevated to "oversee" the Weave (but not control it) as a guardian type of figure.
Anyway, to the other points:
- We don't know what happened in regard to the Chosen. That was supposed to be the backup plan though, to my understanding. It also seems fairly clear that Mystra was caught completely off guard.
- It's impossible to understand Ao in this type of situation. One of the things he demands deities do is uphold their portfolios. Cyric is the god of murder, deception and strife. From Ao's point of view he was doing his job. At least that's how I see it.
- Since Ao can also see into the future, he foresaw everything that would happen, and thus he knew the world wouldn't be destroyed with the loss of the Weave. There was no reason for him to intervene. After all, why would he care that hundreds of thousands of mortals perished? It's not his job to care. He knows hundreds of thousands of mortals perish everyday, so it's nothing new to him. I just think it is a mistake to look at Ao as some type of good guy, when he is (if anything) the very epitome of true neutral with a healthy dose of indifference.
Yeah. I think it's kind of dumb that a new god of magic didn't step up. I understand -why- they got rid of the Weave, and even though I disliked Mystra, I loved the concept of the Weave.
According to the designers, all Shar had to do was "prevent the rise" of a new deity of magic. Shar decides.
Actually, I guess my dislike of Mystra stems largely from the fact that she got so much attention, and she wasn't even that interesting of a deity. She was a spotlight hog. Her only real character depth was the fact that she was good aligned and had to allow evil things happen with the Weave, yet I don't think I've ever saw her develop one way or another in that direction.
Get ready for the exact same treatment of Shar and Cyric. Except that it's already been happening, quite obviously for most of us - and in a FAR worse way than was ever true for Mystra. Shar and Cyric are the designers' favorites. At least with Mystra, she was popular with and well-liked by most of the readers (those that bought the novels, etc).
It would have been more interesting if she was torn with internal conflict and struggle - trying to balance her duties as a goddess of magic with her moral beliefs. I never really saw any of that in her. She could have been made neutral and it wouldn't have made a bit of difference.
Same exact complaints for Shar and Cyric, starting way before 4E. Now that they're the pre-eminent bad deities, you don't think it'll be even worse for Shar and Cyric after a year or two of 4E?
I definitely agree with you that Mystra was given a lot of attention. I think much of that stemmed from the fact that the Forgotten Realms was known for its rich diversity of magic. As the goddess of magic, that often made her the center of attention. I just hope they do not overexpose Shar the way they seem to be doing by making her the center of attention even more than they did Mystra.
They already have, Shar is the Thakisis of $th edition.
-A new deity of magic couldn't have been put in place. Because then, you'd have have the same "fan problems" with this deity as with Mystra. And, according to the designers, the new magic system couldn't have been instituted (which, I think, no one agrees with) with a deity of magic in the 'heavens'.
I don't agree with that statement, there is no single tiny little piece of the lame magical system of $th edition that can't work if there is a deity of magic.
I don't agree with that statement, there is no single tiny little piece of the lame magical system of $th edition that can't work if there is a deity of magic.
-Hence the part where I said that I don't think anyone agrees with their statement. ;)
-Hence the part where I said that I don't think anyone agrees with their statement. ;)
I know, I was just reinforcing your point.
On a side note, has anyone ever betrayed Shar other than that volmaxx guy sir thing dude person? He uh, rejoined or something? I kinda want to see rivalen serve Lathander, not to be good, just to spite Shar.
Shar does not know of the existence of AO.
Of course Shar knows of AO, or she has complete memory loss of the Time of Troubles (and wouldn't many of us wish the same thing).
For if she did, surely she would understand that AO would not allow such a goal that she has her mind set to, ever to occur.
In theory, Shar is acting in accordance with her portfolio (which includes nihilism), so AO would be fine with her attempt to destroy everything - even if he might ultimately try to stop her.
What I think is really contridictory, other than the obvious I have outlayed, is the fact that her followers die long before that of others. Is Shar's IQ below 75? Is AO not an obstacle for her?
Shar's just a one-note. Powerful, perhaps, but a nihilist one-note. And as such, she's INCREDIBLY boring and useless as a deity for a campaign.
I hope they cut out her "End of Days" attitude in this edition. She could be a much more interesting deity if that stuff was canned. Perhaps I will just not use that part of her schtick.
-The "end of days" attitude is what Shar represents. Can that, and you might as well get rid of Shar and replace her with someone else.
Of course Shar knows of AO, or she has complete memory loss of the Time of Troubles (and wouldn't many of us wish the same thing).
I know I do.
Shar's just a one-note. Powerful, perhaps, but a nihilist one-note. And as such, she's INCREDIBLY boring and useless as a deity for a campaign.
I completely disagree with this. Sure, if you're bringing Shar herself into your campaign it could be boring, but if you focus upon her followers they can be rich and very diversified - and more unique than your standard villains. Shar lends herself to creating several layers of complexity, depending on the individual and their interpretations of her dogma. They can be anything from desperate, scheming nobles and merchants, to insane cultists or simple outcasts from society looking for something greater to belong too.
I hope they cut out her "End of Days" attitude in this edition. She could be a much more interesting deity if that stuff was canned. Perhaps I will just not use that part of her schtick.
Really, to do that you take away the very essence that is Shar. It's what makes her who she is - I just think people have a hard time understanding her and what she is about.
Look at things from a Sharran perspective: Shar represents very real human emotions. She's the deity that those cast out by society turn too, because she understands their "loss" and pain, offering to numb their wounds with forgetfulness. She's the deity that those who have been spurned by those that they love, as she was spurned by her own sister, who teaches them to nurse their wounds in bitterness and plot revenge. She's the deity that those who feel hopeless turn to when all hope seems lost, because for all her bitterness and wickedness, she still provides the numbing comfort of darkness, a stillness of emotion. Shar to her followers is like a drug. She encourages you to drink deeply, focusing inwardly and to grow stronger so that you may better accomplish what you desire. When Shar tells her followers never to turn to promises of success, she is trying to teach them not to NOT better their lives, but to plot and scheme for methods that will not fail.
Shar is not a deity who seeks power for powers sake, or a deity who seeks to rule some vast empire, or even a deity that seeks to subjugate her own followers. She is not even a deity who is evil for evil's sake - evil to Shar is meaningless, it's a means to an end.
You might look at her end goal and see that as silly, but it is not so different than many real world religions. For example, how is it any different than the end times beliefs held by many religions? Or how is it any different than real world religions focus on the afterlife being better than life, and it is something you should strive toward and have to earn?
Sure, on the face of it what Shar is offering might not seem like a very good deal. After all, who wants to die? However, Shar is not encouraging mass suicide (though I am sure suicide cults devoted to her have existed) as that would be counter productive to her goals. What she is encouraging is something much more insidious.
She is outright encouraging her followers to bring about a radical and drastic change to the world, that with each action they take and careful planning, together in a covenant with her, bring about an end of pain and suffering for everyone. Shar focuses heavily upon loss and pain and she tries to offer an escape from that pain. What she offers is a numb blissful non-existence within the void. In the void, as a Sharran believes, everything is perfect, returned to its natural state, which was corrupted and distorted by Selune and the other gods. All of whom they would blame for all their troubles, all their sufferings and short comings.
Everyone loves a scapegoat, and while Sharrans often focus inward to grow stronger, it is only to feed upon negative emotions and feelings, which they then use and direct toward their enemies – who are more often than not enemies of Shar.
Yes, it is a bit complicated and not very well explained. However, that is how I understand and play the Sharran faith as a whole. It is not some bazaar whacked out philosophy or belief that only crazy people hold. Very sane and rational people hold true to Sharran dogma as well, as Shar is a very human deity in the sense that she intricately understands the darker, more negative side of human nature and has the ability to play upon and manipulate it with ease.
This is also why I hate the fact that she has come to the forefront now. I do not trust that novel authors or WotC will give to her the complexity that she is due, and will instead dumb her down in order to turn her into another Bane or Cyric. Bane likewise could have been a more complex deity, but in the end he comes out looking like a bumbling mustache twirling failure who is two dimensional in nature. If either of those two deities were real, they would sue for character defamation.
Shar is not the type of deity that "fails" often due to the complexity and carefulness in which her followers plot and scheme. They often think of hundreds of scenarios and have hundreds more back up plans. Plots within plots and wheels within wheels is the modus operandi of a Sharran, which is what makes them so dangerous, on top of the fact that they focus exclusively in working in secret and darkness as to not leave an easy trail.
More often than not, when you think you have finally uncovered a Sharran plot and its true goals, you find yourself at a dead end or worse, lead foolishly into a trap that ultimately results in your death.
This is also why I hate the fact that she has come to the forefront now. I do not trust that novel authors or WotC will give to her the complexity that she is due, and will instead dumb her down in order to turn her into another Bane or Cyric. Bane likewise could have been a more complex deity, but in the end he comes out looking like a bumbling mustache twirling failure who is two dimensional in nature. If either of those two deities were real, they would sue for character defamation.
This is sort of the key thing here. The problem is not that Shar is somehow a 'bad' deity or poorly designed, per se - the problem lies in how she gets portrayed in the novels, et al.
That's Shar's version of "the Deliverance". ;)
EDIT: And anyone who still believes that Sharran belief is "crazy" all I am going to encourage you to do is do some research into real world religions. You will easily find all sorts of bazaar and strange things that make anything a Sharran believes seem the pinnacle of sanity. It will just prove to you that a human is capable of believing anything, no matter how silly, how twisted or implausible.
What separates Shar from the other gods is her layers of complexity and diversity of followers.
Again, it's the bit about how she could/ought to be, versus how they have portrayed her (much as was the case with Mystra, Cyric, or any number of others).
There are certainly a lot of believable ways that someone could have an apocalyptic religion. Again, though, this isn't how Shar's followers have been portrayed in past novels - it's been a recurring theme of lower level initiates not being privy to the true secrets of the ultra-fanatical inner circle, many of whom struck me as being either crazy, or utterly self-serving and caring not a whit for Shar's doctrine.
Again, it's the bit about how she could/ought to be, versus how they have portrayed her (much as was the case with Mystra, Cyric, or any number of others).
Thing is, once you do a single adventure story about an apocalyptic religion (like Shar's), it overwhelms the flavor of general campaigns if kept as a "major attraction". And we've all got the very recent stories involving Netheril and the Shades from the novels, so Shar and her one-note nature will get really old really fast.
Like I said, the novels will screw her up, and that makes me sad. She's a great deity with tons of potential. She ranks right up there as one of my top five Realms deities of all time, namely because the motivations of her and her followers can be very diverse. Compare this to, say Bane, and his followers who are fairly well pigeonholed into a certain type of mindset and role.
Of course, Shar's Church -is- divided between the true believers and lay people, but this is true for every church - even in the real world. There are some who join Shar's Church because they want to be apart of something dark, secret and "naughty" and there are others who turn to Shar in earnest seeking some type of real spiritual connection. It's the job of the Sharran priest to separate these two groups and to recognize who can be expendable and who can not.
Those who involve themselves with the Church without any real serious intentions of commitment, eventually regret the decision unless they become true believers. It is not uncommon for a non-committed person to fall out of touch with the church over time (a byproduct of being a secret cell), only to - years later - be contacted by them again. Often times, the individual has put whatever dark deeds they performed in the name of Shar behind them and become black mailed into serving whatever ends that the Sharran requires. That's one of the beautiful things about the Sharran church - it's secrets that bind everyone together. To cross the church after becoming a member virtually ensures your own destruction right along with them. And due to the cell structure of the church it is only a minor set back.
I would love to see a novel that gave Shar and her followers the treatment that they deserve - showing all the layers of the complexity. However, that simply is not the type of audience that the novels usually attract.
Thing is, once you do a single adventure story about an apocalyptic religion (like Shar's), it overwhelms the flavor of general campaigns if kept as a "major attraction". And we've all got the very recent stories involving Netheril and the Shades from the novels, so Shar and her one-note nature will get really old really fast.
I'm not sure what you mean? Sure, if every time you have an interaction with Shar's followers it's of an apocalyptic kind, a "you must save the world before Shar tries to destroy it... again." Yes, that'd get boring, but that's also not how Shar's church works. There could be major events like that, sure, but by and large Shar's church is decentralized and focused on activities on a local level.
These range from trying to overthrow governments, to controlling them, to trying to gain financing for church activities, to creating false cults (with a varied number of objectives), to gathering information and hording secrets, and on and on. It is very rare (outside of novels and their inaccurate portrayals that make little sense) that Sharrans work openly and so obviously. It's more about bringing the world and its people closer to Shar, one day at a time, inch by inch, and working to ensure Shar's ultimate victory.
However, even if you hold strong to your belief it would make Shar and her church no different than Bane, Cyric, Talos or most any other evil deity.
To make Shar work you can't really think about the deity herself, but her individual followers and their own personal motivations.
Know what? we are all still happy:D
btw- we still use bane/bhall/murkel
The argument of her being "one-note" can be appliead to ALL of the gods if you want to hold so narrow a view of her church. Chauntea will only ever appear to save a forrest. Tempus can only ever be engaged in a full fledged global war. Amaunator only wants to work on his tan, so the sun should never set.
All of these are ludicrous ofcourse, but I'm sure you grasp the point. ;)
Shar want's the end of all things, so ANY play towards that end can be used. The destruction of a shrine. The Summoning of a demon. The holy war between opposing churches. She might be behind the corruption of the thrown. Anything is possible.
The gods are only as silly as you make them in your campaign. There short comings, are your shortcomings, not design flaws.
-RW
I'm with Meldread on this one. Shar is by no stretch of the imagination a one trick pony. Even if the overlying plan is to destory the universe, her ground plans can be as complex as any other.
(...)
The gods are only as silly as you make them in your campaign. There short comings, are your shortcomings, not design flaws.
Ah, that old trusty "argument" that "well, it's the DMs fault, not the design". Sorry, but that old chestnut has just about entirely used up its effectiveness as an argument. The primary points of my argument, which you didn't bother to actually address (other than to drag out the tired "DMs can flesh out things" issue), are these:
1) Shar as a one-note means that her goal is pretty much for one thing: nihilism, apocalyptic destruction, the end of everything. That is -exactly- her design as shown to us in novels and sourcebooks.
2) Yes, you can in fact do anything you want to as a DM, but that's not the point because that's true no matter what we're talking about. As a DM, I can have special rules for the consumption of various Realms cheeses if I so wished. But Shar is -designed- to be simple, incredibly simple. So simple in fact that her primary reason for existence is "destruction" - the baseline feature of any evil deity in any generic setting. And yet there is little to nothing more made of her. Fleshing her out and making her actually interesting shouldn't be MY job, it should be the DESIGNERS' job. Especially considering how expensive it is to buy new campaign guides every few years.
1) Shar as a one-note means that her goal is pretty much for one thing: nihilism, apocalyptic destruction, the end of everything. That is -exactly- her design as shown to us in novels and sourcebooks.
Yes, how is that a problem? It is not as if your group is going to have direct interactions with her. By that line of thought -every- deity is a one-note deity. That is why you focus upon individual sects, groups, and followers which can, as I pointed out, be rich and diverse.
2) Yes, you can in fact do anything you want to as a DM, but that's not the point because that's true no matter what we're talking about. As a DM, I can have special rules for the consumption of various Realms cheeses if I so wished. But Shar is -designed- to be simple, incredibly simple. So simple in fact that her primary reason for existence is "destruction" - the baseline feature of any evil deity in any generic setting. And yet there is little to nothing more made of her. Fleshing her out and making her actually interesting shouldn't be MY job, it should be the DESIGNERS' job. Especially considering how expensive it is to buy new campaign guides every few years.
That is simply not true.
I find it slightly funny that you appear to be venting your anger on a fictional deity, simply because you hate what WotC has done by (stupidly) making her the center of the 4E setting. Sure, go ahead vent all you want, it still won't make her a "simple" deity, because as I pointed out in a previous post she is perhaps the most complex deity in the setting.
To paraphrase (and not directed at Meldread, so much as the old Mystra-haters):
"I find it slightly funny that you appear to be venting your anger on a fictional deity, simply because you hate what WotC has done by (stupidly) making her the most powerful deity of the 3E setting."
She is not THAT complex Meldread, she only appears to be because all the work WotC did with her.
-Work being put into a deity would be complexity. ;)
-There is no doubt, Shar is probably the most complex deity in the setting. While she is all black, to use an analogy, her color is made up of differing shades.
-Work being put into a deity would be complexity. ;)
-There is no doubt, Shar is probably the most complex deity in the setting. While she is all black, to use an analogy, her color is made up of differing shades.
The Seldarine are way more complex and interesting.
Ah, that old trusty "argument" that "well, it's the DMs fault, not the design". Sorry, but that old chestnut has just about entirely used up its effectiveness as an argument. The primary points of my argument, which you didn't bother to actually address (other than to drag out the tired "DMs can flesh out things" issue), are these:
Just because ou don't like it, doesn't make it any less valid. ;)
And to be fair, I wasn't saying it was up to the DM to flesh her out. I was saying it is the DM's fault if they can't see the potential she has. They are similar, but distinctly different, in that the job has been done for you, you just have to make of it as you will.
1) Shar as a one-note means that her goal is pretty much for one thing: nihilism, apocalyptic destruction, the end of everything. That is -exactly- her design as shown to us in novels and sourcebooks.
How does that differ from the others pray-tell? Every deity embodies their portfolios/ Spheres, and to that end, by your arguement, they are all one-note beings. Tyr wanted absolute law, Kossuth wanted the world to burn, Tempus wants unending war, to which he aids both sides, Lathander wanted the purification of the universe of what he percieved to be evil.
But these things do not define the character, or pigeon hole them. They are a base, from which a story is built. Some have more of a story, and I am sorry you hate that. But that remains your problem if you can not see beyond the one-note of everything. The gods are as complex as mortals, if not more so.
A campaign with Shar could have her combatting any number of organizations. Her followers might be looking for any combination of artifacts or items, for any number of reasons. However the BEST feature of Shar, is her portfolio of Secrets. As a DM this all but screams, do with me as you want. She could back lathander in a holy war of cleansing, and it doesn't have to make sense. Not to your players, and in a rare case not to the DM. You may never know why she did what she did, but that is the beuty of her concept.
2) Yes, you can in fact do anything you want to as a DM, but that's not the point because that's true no matter what we're talking about. As a DM, I can have special rules for the consumption of various Realms cheeses if I so wished. But Shar is -designed- to be simple, incredibly simple. So simple in fact that her primary reason for existence is "destruction" - the baseline feature of any evil deity in any generic setting. And yet there is little to nothing more made of her. Fleshing her out and making her actually interesting shouldn't be MY job, it should be the DESIGNERS' job. Especially considering how expensive it is to buy new campaign guides every few years.
I won't repeat myself, so you can make of the initial part as you will. Just because her end goal is the destruction of everything, by no means means she must always be obviously persuing that end. The paths and plots she follows and weaves should be as complex, if not more so than all the other gods.
WoTC won't sit down and give you a list of 10,000 things Shar can do for you as a DM. As it stands, I and many others see her potential, and can make endless stories surrounding her. So the problem then DOES lie with you, and not the designers.
-RW
The Seldarine are way more complex and interesting.
In your opinion. I find them boring and uninteresting, but that is my opinion.
I think people need to work on adding that one little line. ;)
-RW
The Seldarine are way more complex and interesting.
-More interesting, I find them, yes. More complex? No. Not even Corellon Larethian, who has seen the most information written up about him.
She is not THAT complex Meldread, she only appears to be because all the work WotC did with her.
Actually, I believe that Shar will become LESS complex now that WotC has a fascination with her; something I believe is a bad thing. In effect, I fear that she'll become another Mystra and all the complexity that Shar does possess will be dwindled away until she is as one-dimensional as Bane or Cyric.
That is the reason I am trying to defend Shar. :P
I actually like the deity because she is complex and interesting, something I am pretty sure WotC is about to ruin.
Fire_Wraith-
That is the same problem I had with Mystra. Except Mystra 3.0 did not have a chance to gain all the back story and character growth that Shar got, which indeed ended up making her flat and one dimensional.
Good aligned Mystra could have been much more interesting. I would have liked to have seen more internal dialog with Mystra and her struggle to reconcile her mortal morality with her divine duties. Instead, TSR (and to a lesser extent WotC) decided to use her as a divine bludgeon against all things evil, which in turn inflated her importance (much like what is happening with Shar right now in 4E under WotC, but in reverse). Or Mystra would act totally crazy at times, seeming completely content to maintain her divine impartiality, such as when the Simbul wanted to blow up Thay to take out the Red Wizards. Since Thay was spreading magic Mystra was in favor of them, despite the Red Wizards largely a completely evil organization.
The problem with Mystra was that there was no struggle, no internal conflict, only constant inflation of the character to ever greater amounts of importance.
I know the same will happen to Shar to lesser and greater degrees and that saddens me because she was perhaps the most unique deity of the Forgotten Realms.
I simply do not know how they justify a deity of darkness and secrets operating so openly. It is completely against her character in every way shape and form.
18DELTA ;)
However, weaving stories around them was rather difficult unless you were in some highly elven populated place like Evermeet.
I found the same to be true of most of the other pantheons as well, the exceptions being the Orcish Pantheon, the Mulhorandi Pantheon and the Halfling Pantheon.
-Shar is to the Realms as the Blood of Vol is to Eberron. :D
18DELTA ;)
I will be interested to see how they crowbar all of these core pantheon ideals into Eberron
EDIT: And anyone who still believes that Sharran belief is "crazy" all I am going to encourage you to do is do some research into real world religions. You will easily find all sorts of bazaar and strange things that make anything a Sharran believes seem the pinnacle of sanity. It will just prove to you that a human is capable of believing anything, no matter how silly, how twisted or implausible.
Well, all that still doesn't prove that Sharran beliefs aren't crazy, it would just prove that there are lots of other crazy (possibly crazier) beliefs out there.
Well, all that still doesn't prove that Sharran beliefs aren't crazy, it would just prove that there are lots of other (possibly crazier) beliefs out there.
No, but it helps to explain why her church can exist at all, which should in theory quell the arguments against it for that.
-RW
we still use the old grey boxed set for background or source and 4E core.
Know what? we are all still happy:D
Good for you.
No, but it helps to explain why her church can exist at all, which should in theory quell the arguments against it for that.
-RW
Right, but Meldread seemed to be asserting that Shar's church isn't crazy, as per this statement:
And anyone who still believes that Sharran belief is "crazy" all I am going to encourage you to do is do some research into real world religions.
Now, Shar's religion might not be crazy, but "other beliefs out there are even crazier" isn't a cogent argument to use if you are trying to prove that.
In your opinion. I find them boring and uninteresting, but that is my opinion.
I think people need to work on adding that one little line. ;)
-RW
I think it should just be taken for granted, actually. Any post someone makes is explicitly their own opinion unless they state otherwise (and if they are wrong, they can be called out on that).
Not that I think opinions are above all criticism, either.
I think it should just be taken for granted, actually. Any post someone makes is explicitly their own opinion unless they state otherwise (and if they are wrong, they can be called out on that).
Not that I think opinions are above all criticism, either.
I just think it goes a long way towards diffusing any percieved claims to a factual statement. Given that both canon and opinion share the same presentational approach, it makes it hard to differentiate sometimes, and sparks unneeded arguments.
Opinions can be changed, canon is set by the developers. Saying something like "Cyric is the worst god in existence" while being an assumed opinion, is stated as fact and will often warrant a response, in the form of a counter argument/ opinion, that is less kind than a calmer "please explain why you think as such".
-RW
I just think it goes a long way towards diffusing any percieved claims to a factual statement. Given that both canon and opinion share the same presentational approach, it makes it hard to differentiate sometimes, and sparks unneeded arguments.
I can agree with that.
Right, but Meldread seemed to be asserting that Shar's church isn't crazy, as per this statement:
Now, Shar's religion might not be crazy, but "other beliefs out there are even crazier" isn't a cogent argument to use if you are trying to prove that.
Well, I guess I just meant it in: "I do not think Shar's followers are any less crazy or inherently illogical than many religious beliefs held in the real world." As in, Shar paints the void (what she wants to return the world too) as a sort of heavenly state. To them, it would be a good thing - something to strive toward.
It's no more crazy (and I'm really hoping that this doesn't sidetrack this thread), than someone I know in real life. He actively believes and prays for an all out war in the Middle East where thousands die because he believes that such an event will lead to the second coming of Christ.
Now, while to me that is crazy - in the same way that Shar's belief is crazy - it does not make it any less of a 'good' thing in their eyes. They have a very the ends justify the means mentality. Just as Sharrans commit evil acts to bring about something they believe is an ultimate good, so too does this individual believe that such a war will inevitably bring about a higher good.
So... I guess this means that a Sharran could logically exist and she could logically have followers even if they happen to act illogically. :P
(Now I hope that this thread does not degenerate into a discussion about real world politics and religion, but I felt it would be helpful to give a real world example.)
My point is that, in the real world there are those who hold similarly strange beliefs. In fact there are many.
If you look at things from a certain perspective, what Shar is offering them is a certain form of "heaven" or "nirvana".
If you look at things from a certain perspective, what Shar is offering them is a certain form of "heaven" or "nirvana".
-Certainly. The 'trappings' of [insert everything deity doesn't represent] stand for everything the deity does not, and get's in the deity's 'ultimate plan'. The only way to achieve that 'ultimate plan' is to remove [insert everything deity doesn't represent].
Too bad We can't get the same emphasis on many of the other Gods of Toril. Seems like game companies suffer from the same things Comic companies.. Take their more popular characters and run em in the hole. Instead of realizing that some of their other characters can be just as popular with sacrificing sales.
-Yeah, agreed. I was just saying that in another thread. If it's not this one, it's this one. And, if it's not that one, it's this one.
Too bad We can't get the same emphasis on many of the other Gods of Toril. Seems like game companies suffer from the same things Comic companies.. Take their more popular characters and run em in the hole. Instead of realizing that some of their other characters can be just as popular with sacrificing sales.
they can't figure out why some characters get popular. Good writing and drawing. Like the Immortal Iron Fist for example. That got popular because its well done
Seems like game companies suffer from the same things Comic companies.. Take their more popular characters and run em in the hole. Instead of realizing that some of their other characters can be just as popular with sacrificing sales.
I will be interested to see how they crowbar all of these core pantheon ideals into Eberron
They probably won't. Eberron has never had "mirrors" of the core gods before.
Moradin would just be a powerful servant of Onatar, and Correleon would just be an ancient hero or ancestor that many elves revere.
I think FR being most likely the most popular setting WOTC has it had to fit in more core stuff than other settings will. It is in many ways the most gneric (not in a bad way) fantasy setting that can work with the core material.
Plus everything was always "crowbarred" into EB. That was the catch phrase of the setting. "If it exists in D&D, it exists in Eberron". That was a phrase they used alot in the beginning years of the setting.
"If it exists in D&D, it exists in Eberron".
It is actualy more like 'it may exists in Eberron' - as in, you may find a place and way to incorporate it. And the setting have limits, of course; by example, no avatars of the gods stuff.
I agree, A thing that us fans of FR seems to forget or deny; the setting is indeed quite generic and 'vanila'. It's well-made and deep, but it still remains a more classic fantasy world.
Don't search far-out creativity there.
Plus everything was always "crowbarred" into EB. That was the catch phrase of the setting. "If it exists in D&D, it exists in Eberron". That was a phrase they used alot in the beginning years of the setting.
is that no longer true?
Speak of the da%m devil.. I used to like this dude. Cant stand him now..
Speak of the da%m devil.. I used to like this dude. Cant stand him now..
-Same here. Not too long ago, when I moved into the place I am currently living at, I was going through all my old comics, getting rid of all of the ones I didn't want (The DC ones), and I saw an X-Men issue that had one of those 'fan poll' things. The younger me listed Wolverine and Gambit as his two favorite X-Men. Now? Not so much.
-And, as I said earlier, same thing with Shar. And Drow.
getting rid of all of the ones I didn't want (The DC ones)
Next time you get an urge to get rid of comics, let me know. May as well give them to someone else if you're just going to throw them away, and I'd pay for the shipping. And yeah, Wolverine is really overplayed (I tried counting the number of titles he appears in, each month, but apparently I can't count that high). So much so that there's a new cartoon coming out called "Wolverine and the X-Men", and it looks like Wolverine is team leader. Say what?!? Although I do like Wolverine: First Class.
Agreed about Shar. That's precisely the problem I had with Cyric back in 2E. You had Shar and Talos but they were hardly mentioned. It was full-on Cyric all the time. They took three interesting villains, Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal, and gutted them, replacing them with Cyric. Then they made Cyric the primary focus of all evil in 2E. That really sucked. So when Iyachtu Xvim was rising to prominence, I was naturally pretty happy about that (even though I hate his name). And when Bane came back in 3E, I was ecstatic. To bad Bane hasn't seen much use since then.
I've never really had that much of a problem with Shar, though, to be honest. Although truth be told, that's likely because I was so frustrated with all the focus being on Cyric that I was just happy to see some attention put on someone else!
Whatever the case, in 4E, it appears these're gonna be the Greater Gods of evil: Asmodeus, Bane, Cyric, Ghaunadaur, Gruumsh, Lolth, and Shar. While things currently appear focused on Shar, hopefully they'll start spreading things out a little more evenly in the novels. Shame Talos never got the play I always wanted him to get, but hopefully Gruumsh will see some developments in his place. And of course, I want to see more with Bane.
Well, all that still doesn't prove that Sharran beliefs aren't crazy, it would just prove that there are lots of other crazy (possibly crazier) beliefs out there.
I follow the Holy Zebra in the Sky. I will declare Holy War on all other religions if they ridicule me. The Zebra, whose name we don't dare speak in case of his divine wrath, speaks to me when I'm drunk or eating cereal. He recently told me to annex Poland.
)It sounds like fans and non-fans of Shar both agree on this. I'd hate to think the Realms has reached some type of Armageddon point. We're supposed to fear Shar's secrets and plots for the future; I'd almost be loathe to defeat the Empire of Shade if it meant her final chapter. Besides, you don't defeat Shar's Monolithic ArmyTM (see Bane below); you out convolute her somehow! That's how her story ends.
Cyric, on the other hand, seems like the baddy that pisses everyone off. Whereas Shar seems out of character acting so openly, can anyone explain why they feel Cyric's story and behavior doesn't fit him? I liked the Cyrinishad debacle. He also killed Bhaal, killed Leira, weakened Mask, killed Adon, killed Mystra, caused the Spellplague...heck, if you don't like 4e you may as well blame it on Cyric! He's the bad guy everyone really hates. Isn't that what he's supposed to be??
Bane, I think, best represents the BBEG in FR. (Not to oversimplify him too much.) Defeating an army of Baneites won't take the fun out of him; he'll raise another one in the future and you'll be on the battlefield to stop him. Shar, on the other hand, should be "conspiracy-type" scary that you only sort of defeat and know will return someday, somewhere, somehow. Cyric should be a thorn in everyone's side, never letting anyone rest or enjoy life too much. All in my opinion, of course. ;)
Cyric, on the other hand, seems like the baddy that pisses everyone off.
-Personally speaking, I think most people dislike Cyric for the wrong reasons.
-Personally speaking, I think most people dislike Cyric for the wrong reasons.
LK, have you become a Sharran now, keeping secrets? :P
What do you mean above? He's a pretty dislikable feller in general, ain't he?
LK, have you become a Sharran now, keeping secrets? :P
What do you mean above? He's a pretty dislikable feller in general, ain't he?
-Well, I mean that I think most people dislike Cyric for him being a generally annoying character in the novels, and not for being the despicable, evil, vile deity that he is.
-But, yes, Shar does have the Karse Stone, so anything is possible. ;)
Buy as a god, I don't think he cuts it, and none of the writers have really done anything impressive with him - he comes off as The Joker from Batman (who I never liked either).
I think they made him too insane to be useful, or even believable - who the hell would follow a god that might kill you at any moment because he doesn't like the color of the shirt your wearing? Insanity may be fun in the short run, but it doesn't make for a realistic FR god (and I say FR, because he MUST have worshippers in this setting, and there's no way someone like him would ever have more then a tiny cult).
The way a deiies power is connected to their followers in FR, Cyric should NOT be a Greater God. He way have had a brief moment in the sun with the followers of the Dark Three, but most of those worshipers would have left for other gods soon after he ascended (realistically - he helped kill all three!)
Actually, I liked him until he became a god, I can live with dispicable - it makes for a great villain.
Buy as a god, I don't think he cuts it, and none of the writers have really done anything impressive with him - he comes off as The Joker from Batman (who I never liked either).
I think they made him too insane to be useful, or even believable - who the hell would follow a god that might kill you at any moment because he doesn't like the color of the shirt your wearing? Insanity may be fun in the short run, but it doesn't make for a realistic FR god (and I say FR, because he MUST have worshippers in this setting, and there's no way someone like him would ever have more then a tiny cult).
The way a deiies power is connected to their followers in FR, Cyric should NOT be a Greater God. He way have had a brief moment in the sun with the followers of the Dark Three, but most of those worshipers would have left for other gods soon after he ascended (realistically - he helped kill all three!)
Yeah, I'm in agreement with you on most of your points. Personally, though I actually feel sorry for Cyric. Out of pretty much every character in the Forgotten Realms, he has undergone the most character assassination. They should have killed him with Mystra. It would have been a mercy killing.
He could have been interesting, I think, and more believable had the TSR policy of "evil must never win and must never be shown profiting from their evil deeds" not been in place. It's what ruined the Zhents as well as Cyric.