*whistles nonchalantly*
Does anyone have a map or know where I can find one?
*whistles nonchalantly*
I don't think they ever made one. You may have to go by the descriptions in the novels: Prince of Lies & Crucible
Or you could ask a Planescape fan.
Tactical map: a large, white piece of paper with a 1-inch grid.
no map.
might ask Ed for a better description
when you get there though, tell Kelemvor We said hi
Its probably changed some since Cyric, and then Kelemvor took over, probably far more structered now im guessing.
I just got to know Matt, why do you need a map of the Fugue Plane!?
Something im a little unclear on, is the whole plane the Fugue Plane, or just the grey misty nothingness part?
The City of the Dead is a part of the Fugue Plane, if that's what you mean.
Something im a little unclear on, is the whole plane the Fugue Plane, or just the grey misty nothingness part?
The City of the Dead is a part of the Fugue Plane, if that's what you mean.
OK cool, thanks for clearing that up, I was thinking that it was, but wasnt 100% on that.
yeah, aside from the city, the fugue plane is pretty much just blank and featureless. Like, literally...grey, misty nothingness stretching out to infinity
Or at least seemingly infinite yet encapsulated as a divine domain within the larger Gray Waste. Myrkul/Cyric/Kelemvor's domain was within that plane as a whole, but the details regarding the relationship of the Fugue to that larger scale planar structure was not always described as best as it might possibly have been. Cosmetic cosmology changes in 3e didn't help, and retconning in 4e didn't much either, but your mileage may vary.
...and retconning in 4e didn't much either, but your mileage may vary.
I don't think 4e has mentioned anything about the Fugue Plane. At least not that I have easily located. Do you have anything you can point me at?
Insomuch as 4e is using a cosmology that's mutually exclusive to the original structure that indicated the Fugue as a subset of Myrkul/Cyric/Kelemvor's domain within the Gray Waste. 4e might not have directly addressed the Fugue Plane, but it's using/assuming an entirely different cosmology, which was what I was getting at.
The 2e Planes of Conflict box set had Kelemvor's domain on the map of the Waste, which is the second map reference for the domain (and presumably the Fugue as well) in previous material. No interior details though like the one mentioned earlier in the thread however.
Insomuch as 4e is using a cosmology that's mutually exclusive to the original structure that indicated the Fugue as a subset of Myrkul/Cyric/Kelemvor's domain within the Gray Waste. 4e might not have directly addressed the Fugue Plane, but it's using/assuming an entirely different cosmology, which was what I was getting at.
The 2e Planes of Conflict box set had Kelemvor's domain on the map of the Waste, which is the second map reference for the domain (and presumably the Fugue as well) in previous material. No interior details though like the one mentioned earlier in the thread however.
Actualy thats one Retcon that I like. I think Kelemvor's plane, and all the god's planes should be their own, and not just part of the Core planes. Although I guess in a sense they still are, all being Domains in the Astral Sea.
It's a retcon I can't stand, but then, I really like Planescape and think Spelljammer is a cool idea. The gods' realms are their own, as it should be, but none of this retarded 'lulz each domain is its own plane/sub-plane' crap.
And I hate the 4E cosmology in general so, so very much.
It's a retcon I can't stand, but then, I really like Planescape and think Spelljammer is a cool idea. The gods' realms are their own, as it should be, but none of this retarded 'lulz each domain is its own plane/sub-plane' crap.
And I hate the 4E cosmology in general so, so very much.
I agree with you. Just say No to Cosmic Soup.
Where the Fugue Plane actually is has never been particularly relevant to me though.
But still mortals really have no clue on how the planes work or their relation to the various other planes, so I still mantain that the planes havnt really changed, just mortal's perception of them has.
I also dont like all the Elemental, Paraelemental, and Quasielemental planes all jumbled up.
Actually this I don't mind because I always thought those were incredibly irrelevant and the elemental chaos - while it's pretty hostile - at least is interesting enough that it's no longer the plane of "instant death and you die". That's sort of boring and the elemental chaos being a soup of everything combined (it can be pure in places) is actually more interesting overall (as it's more usable a site). The Plane Below was really good as well, which really does help and the Plane Above was even better. So many adventure ideas from two books alone and I'll never get to run all of them (tis a good problem that).
I just find it sad that alot of plans were destroyed, races lost and the tie to alignements gone (like half of the alignements themselves).
I don't really mind the alignments going out the window because I hated the idea of them and have for so long it isn't funny. Alignment is essentially almost an irrelevant concept in 4E except for Law vs. Chaos that's perfectly represented between the Plane Above and Plane Below anyway. I also, as is my whim these days, decided to bring back whatever I wanted without caring what anyone else thought. I still have Mechanus in my campaign - which borders the astral sea and the elemental chaos (It powers its gears using the elemental chaos directly - something that irks the inhabitants no ends). The ultimate goal of the denizens of mechanus being to bring complete "order" to the elemental chaos entirely.
Of course they are going to provoke horrible ramifications from their somewhat short sighted goal, but that is just something I'm planning for an adventure. One day. I don't actually care there isn't a Lawful Neutral alignment in 4E, because it's how the inhabitants actually act that matters and not their alignment.
I am way off track here, but I just want to say that alignments made it easy to communicate quickly how NPCs would act and react.
This is where I pull out threads like this, which show the deficiencies in alignment very easily. Personally I find them entirely pointless in how an NPC would act or react as someones personality was never truly reflected in their alignment. Daemons, Devils and outsiders that 'exemplified' alignments frequently acted dumb or entirely contrary to what those alignments actually were.
All it ever did was create arguments when the Paladin detected evil from the taxman and cut his head off.
I am way off track here, but I just want to say that alignments made it easy to communicate quickly how NPCs would act and react. LN, CN, and LE were very nice. Neutral is Unaligned, but Unaligned is such a bad name. CG was the hard one to define for me. Free spirit with good intensions?
Yeah id say you got it, CG is like youre crazy, but youre still a nice guy.
Most players ive gamed with always had a problem with True Neutral, they seemed to think that it meant you flipp flopped, if the bad guys were winning then they would be all Lawful good to counter the evil, if the good guys were winnning then they would have to be all Evil to properly mantain the balance or some such. Thats not True Neutral, thats a personality disorder!
Most players ive gamed with always had a problem with True Neutral, they seemed to think that it meant you flipp flopped, if the bad guys were winning then they would be all Lawful good to counter the evil, if the good guys were winnning then they would have to be all Evil to properly mantain the balance or some such. Thats not True Neutral, thats a personality disorder!
And of course planescape had a group of outland based creatures (the Rilmani IIRC), whose entire existence was to do precisely this to maintain "balance" and they would frequently hinder good/evil depending on their mood.
Silver sword is right, N players didn't have to watch for balance. Rilmani did, because they existed for that.
The problem was they reinforced the concept that neutral individuals (the "pinnacle of neutrality") were basically sociopaths. Hence why I feel no great tears incoming that such things are gone.
Having said that, I still use the alignment system, and have yet to run into those sorts of problems... which I'd view as a player problem more than as a system problem. I can see where removing the system would mitigate the problem, but ultimately it comes down to players seeing alignment as an excuse to embark on mayhem rather than as a moral and ethical compass that's a part of their characters description and worldview. I get why it was a problem, really I do, I just see it as a symptom rather than a cause though.
A neutral PC was someone that didn't have a opinion, fallowed charismatic individuals, was opportunistic, etc.
This is the flaw in alignments in a nutshell. This is merely your opinion on the alignment and it's not the same as my description of the alignment either. So what you've made is not actually a description of what the alignment actually is. Generally neutral can mean a lot more than what you've wrote as the Rilmani can be on one extreme and then someone who is actually basically almost good can be on the other (generally isn't deliberately good, but won't do evil things). Not holding an opinion is whishy washy and if a neutral group didn't hold opinions they wouldn't get very far at all with any decision making process :P The problem is there are numerous people who will disagree with every interpretation of every alignment.
This is why the concept of making them a mechanical thing that we base the entire cosmology on was always somewhat flawed to my mind. Mechanics are concrete things while alignments aren't.
That's why I only need (If anything) Good/Unaligned/Evil. That's the worst thing I could possibly have about an NPC. A few lines of text is infinitely more valuable than any alignment description.
(Boy we are getting off topic now).
And like Kaelyn the Dove I think the Wall is unjust.
So Matt when will we here the news about a future Realms Book on the Planes?
I know NDA, right...
I could be wrong, but going by some of the hints THO has given at Candlekeep it is making me thing another Realms book is coming.
Admit Nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-Accusations.
And like Kaelyn the Dove I think the Wall is unjust.
Indeed. Though that is exactly what makes it the more interesting...
Gomez,
slightly bummed that LFR is no longer canon, so needful for other ways to create Realmslore.
DDI, maybe?
I too don't get the alignment hate. They always made perfect sense to me, and they always described *tendencies* to me. (The one plane in the Wheel that makes no sense at all to me is the Beastlands, and that because it has seemingly nothing at all to do with what it's supposed to represent morally/ethically. That's nice, now why is this the Chaotic Neutral Good plane? Also my least favourite plane. I like the Quasielemental Plane of Salt better.)
I don't get the Inner Planes hate either. Yes, there's an infinite plane of salt. No, it doesn't have any use to you unless you need a large quantity of salt or there's something/someone you need to track down there. I'm not seeing how this is supposedly a problem, however. It isn't there for you. The gods didn't make it as an adventuring locale. It just is. This is, to me, an infinitely better and more 'realistic' plane design than 'everything is an adventuring locale! It's all designed just for you with no preparation needed!', which I just find downright insulting. Should all the non-M-class planets in Star Trek be done away with because they're not suited to the crew going down and exploring in their normal uniforms? To me it's the same thing. Even if you don't *go* to the quasielemental plane of salt, even if you don't *go* to that gas giant, it makes the multiverse/universe feel more alive and richer simply because it is there.
And that's why I love the Wheel and Crystal Spheres and all these locales like the Fugue Plane and Toril being located in part of them. There are other worlds out there. There's a whole infinite multiverse out there, not just a few locations floating by themselves in a sea. 'Arvandor's great, ain't it? Now let's go check out some of the rest of this infinite first layer of Arborea. Let's go see Olympus. Let's go see the Gilded Hall of the Sensates. Hey, there's two more layers of this plane, let's get a way to breathe water and go swim the waters of Ossa. Let's protect ourselves from the dust and go see the infinite dust fields of Pelion. Let's go visit another plane, I wanna see those gears in Mechanus that one guy was talking about.'
Instead of 'Arvandor's great, ain't it? Now let's hop back into this boat and go to the next small finite astral domain', which rather than a sense of awe and 'let's go exploring' fills me with a sense of 'meh'.
*shrug*
Fugue plane doesn't do anything nearly as cool really...
I also dont like all the Elemental, Paraelemental, and Quasielemental planes all jumbled up.
Actually this I don't mind because I always thought those were incredibly irrelevant and the elemental chaos - while it's pretty hostile - at least is interesting enough that it's no longer the plane of "instant death and you die". That's sort of boring and the elemental chaos being a soup of everything combined (it can be pure in places) is actually more interesting overall (as it's more usable a site). The Plane Below was really good as well, which really does help and the Plane Above was even better. So many adventure ideas from two books alone and I'll never get to run all of them (tis a good problem that).
I just find it sad that alot of plans were destroyed, races lost and the tie to alignements gone (like half of the alignements themselves).
I don't really mind the alignments going out the window because I hated the idea of them and have for so long it isn't funny. Alignment is essentially almost an irrelevant concept in 4E except for Law vs. Chaos that's perfectly represented between the Plane Above and Plane Below anyway. I also, as is my whim these days, decided to bring back whatever I wanted without caring what anyone else thought. I still have Mechanus in my campaign - which borders the astral sea and the elemental chaos (It powers its gears using the elemental chaos directly - something that irks the inhabitants no ends). The ultimate goal of the denizens of mechanus being to bring complete "order" to the elemental chaos entirely.
Of course they are going to provoke horrible ramifications from their somewhat short sighted goal, but that is just something I'm planning for an adventure. One day. I don't actually care there isn't a Lawful Neutral alignment in 4E, because it's how the inhabitants actually act that matters and not their alignment.
I know this is off topic but two things.
1) I love your idea of Mechanus and the Elemental Chaos. That is a great idea.
2) I like the alignments. But I think we look at very differently. We seem to look at it like It is LN so it acts this way...I look at it as it acts this way so it is LN., Alignments are a label that people just use to quickly sum something up. Personaly I didn't look at the planes as alignment based...the planes represented this set of values, world views etc. The alignment was just short hand. I am not trying to get you to love alignments...or anything I am just explaining why some people did like the idea of alignments. Though I sorta of wished they just got rid of alignments instead of replacing it with the system they did do. I mean I like the alignment system for the most part( though I dislike True Neutral and find it a unrealistic alignment also), but havbe played games without it either...
I think age has something to do with all the hate for alignments/planes.
At a younger age, abstract concept are harder to grasp and what people do not understand, people often hate.
I didn't fully get how complexe and rich DnD was until I grew older. And now that I do, only the bitter ashes of lament are left.
I agree...but I do think age can be a big of a factor. But I can also accept the fact that somebody can understand the complexities and in depth of the old alignments of the planes/alignment and still hate them.
Though personaly the way I looked at it...take out the alignments from the game and I can still the Great Wheel working just fine.
My own approach, especially with Detect Evil, was that commoners and average schmucks didn't radiate much of an alignment period, with certain exceptions, quietly reinforcing the idea to paladins that this fellow wasn't worth the effort to smite. I came to that conclusion after reading the sections on auras radiated by clerics and such. If they specifically mentioned that those classes had them, it meant that most others didn't, so it was something of a non-issue. Same held true for most monsters, that it was only the shamans and clerics who had strong enough alignments to qualify for smoting more often than not. I think it made the Smite feature a bit more... special, I guess, something you didn't use too often. My own thoughts was that if you were using it at least once an encounter, the world would have to be very dark indeed, far darker than I'd run anyway.
That's something I think having to have a patron, but not being restricted from paying homage to other deities reinforced for the Realms. Certainly you had a favorite Power, whose realm you went to after death, but that didn't stop you from giving a nod to Auril or Talos for better weather. Tying back into the matter at hand, that was always my justification for the Fugue Plane. You arrived there, declared a patron, got judged to see if you were worthy or whatever, and went you're merry way to wherever you were supposed to go, barring being sent to the Wall.
I don't think 4e has mentioned anything about the Fugue Plane. At least not that I have easily located. Do you have anything you can point me at?
It has been mentioned in some 4e novels (e.g. Edge of Chaos). The plane, the city and the wall around the city still exist pre-spellplague and work just like before
There is sort of a map, or a picture anyway, of the Fugue Plane on p.141 of the Players Guide to Faerûn (3.5e). It's just a tiny depiction of the Crystal Spire in the midst of the city, not even sure it's meant to be representational, but it's worth a look.
In the Players Guide, there is a lot of info about the 3.5 Fugue Plane on pp. 152 & 153.
Karen Wynn Fonstad's Forgotten Realms Atlas has a map and some info about the 1e version of this plane under Cyric.
Information about Dendar's Lair can be found on pp. 188 & 189 of Powers & Pantheons in the Dendar entry.
I think On Hallowed Ground has some good info too, in the section on Faerûnian gods, but I don't have that handy at the moment, will have to dig that book out to find what page.
The novel Prince of Lies has some vivid descriptions of the plane, including a description of the oozing River Slith that passes through the city and of Dendar's cave.
At a younger age, abstract concept are harder to grasp and what people do not understand, people often hate.
My problem with alignment has nothing to do with them being abstract concepts, my hatred of alignment is because they are purely abstract concepts with absolutely 100% mechanical concepts attached. I've mentioned earlier the Paladin who kills the Taxman because he turns up Neutral Evil. Now, "detect evil" is a mechanic. It has 100% absolutely specific definition in game rules, it detects creatures of evil alignment.
Now "evil" as an alignment doesn't mean you're a daemon, but it means you're not a good person in any manner. But the difference in evil is abstract and not concrete. One evil person could be a daemon in disguise and therefore a baby eating murderer. The other evil person might just be an entirely selfish jerk who kicks the odd kitten for fun. The problem is that detect evil is a mechanical spell that can't tell the difference between the wide ranges of an abstract concept. Neither can the players, because when the Paladin or the party deals with the guy "Because he's evil" the games mechanics have not reinforced the nuances in the alignment. You don't learn anything about why someone is evil, just that they are.
This is where alignments are heavily flawed, because they are mechanically tied into things like if you can get your powers or not - yet are entirely 100% subjective. Nobody has ever given me the same description of all the alignments that matches my own in any edition. Very rarely have I seen two people give the same definition of what constitutes an evil act according to alignments. Classic "catch-22" scenarios that come up often are killing evil humanoid children/hatchlings. Is it evil to kill something like that, especially if you know said creatures will themselves grow up to murder and massacre others?
The problem isn't with them being abstract, but them being abstract and mechanical. It just doesn't work period. You can't have an abstract concept and then attach firm and defined mechanical advantages onto it. For example in a battle with said taxman involved out of sheer bad luck you could have a devil there (maybe they corrupted him). The PCs use protection from evil 10' and suddenly he ends up being repelled right into the devil that is trying to get him. Now perhaps he's an evil selfish jerk, but is he really the equivalent of an archetype planar entity of evil? To the protection from evil spell there is absolutely no difference - although clearly from an abstract point of view one of these things is intentionally trying to be affected by the spell and the other isn't.
There is the problem. You have something that sees only a purely black and white mechanical aspect on something that isn't black and white at all. This is why when someone "detects evil" they don't know anything about how evil that person is. Given that a huge multitude of things detect as evil that are absolutely reprehensible, it doesn't take much to understand why your average paladin wants to decapitate it in the name of justice.
Alignments currently don't do anything in the game anymore from a mechanical point of view. No creature cares if you're good, evil, neutral, chaotic or lawful or just a general jerk. In the two years I've been playing 4E now every single creature and NPC the PCs meet is defined entirely by how it acts. Nobody just uses detect alignment or anything else then beheads things, creatures and NPCs especially have to be demonstrated to be evil. This is because there is no mechanics about being evil, only what the individual thinks. This does in fact make alignments now entirely abstract, hence why I don't see any point beyond giving me "evil" or "good" as a descriptor. That tells me everything I need to know about how they will generally act and I can go from there - because the concept is abstract.
It also doesn't matter anymore because the PCs - or anything - can't figure out what an alignment is mechanically. It just doesn't make any difference to any power or similar. This is actually where I now fully disagree with what was quoted. I prefer alignments now because they are 100% absolutely, completely and utterly abstract. There is no mechanical black and white now. There is no "You're evil, we shouldn't listen to you!". There is no "He's good, he's obviously trustworthy!". There is only how a creature or NPC ACTS and the determination of if they are acting generally in a positive or negative way is thrown at the feet of the player characters. Exactly where an abstract concept should be - abstract and not in any manner whatsoever mechanically defined.
Feel free to adress them if you feel like it - but both of those forums are for 4E and this isn't an issue in 4E if you actually read what I wrote.
It isn't relevant in either of those forums because this is no longer a relevant discussion to 4E anyway. That's actually the entire point of my post if you read my argument.
Disagree..."What a DM to do' is editionless...but I don't see a point in continueing discussing it. It has to have personal opinion and what you and your groups did with it.
It isn't relevant in either of those forums because this is no longer a relevant discussion to 4E anyway. That's actually the entire point of my post if you read my argument.
Disagree..."What a DM to do' is editionless...but I don't see a point in continueing discussing it. It has to have personal opinion and what you and your groups did with it.
Yeah looking at it I notice that there are still the odd 3.5 thread. In any event what you've just said is pretty much my exact point. His interpretation of alignments to avoid problems is exactly and only that: Just his interpretation. It doesn't change how the mechanics interacted with alignments at all and how there isn't any mechanical interaction with alignments anymore.
I didn't want tot talk about interpretation (much), but about mechanics mostly.
You realize that my argument is simply the existence of those mechanics period? That's what I inherently disagree with: Mechanics interacting with concepts that are not mechanically defined anywhere and entirely up to an individual to interpret.
Something that is entirely open to interpretation interacting with mechanics that aren't even that good at interpreting that either is room for pure disaster.
But again, is a total non-existent issue anymore! That is inherently the entire point.
The spam forums maybe?
Yeas Robin...I mean 18Dealta...quick to the spam cave.
Which is probably why a lot of people in the Realms might find death intimidating and scary, in that it takes them away from what they know and thrusts them into the Fugue Plane, a scary unknown to most. ;)
...and retconning in 4e didn't much either, but your mileage may vary.
I don't think 4e has mentioned anything about the Fugue Plane. At least not that I have easily located. Do you have anything you can point me at?
The 4e FRCG has this to say on it: "The Fugue Plane
The Crystal Spire, a tower of glittering transparent rock, watches over the City of Judgment, a gray metropolis of the dead, in the otherwise flat and featureless Fugue Plane. From the Crystal Spire,Kelemvor and his seneschal, Jergal, judge the dead.
Alignment: Unaligned.
Connections: Shadowfell; the Fugue Plane has connections to all other dominions as well, but the use of such links is limited to those collecting and transporting the dead to the afterlife.
Primary Residents: Kelemvor (greater god) and his exarch Jergal."
Pg 63. As far as I know thats all we get in 4e, aside from some possible descriptions in novels.
I have no clue what you are talking about and can say that no such project is being worked on. Why are you trying to start problems 18D! I think you are trying to start a riot. You should stop that. Hey, didn't you do something that the mods should look at, eh? I think you did!
Admit Nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-Accusations.
Lets just say for the sake of argument that someone was working on a new Realms sourcebook, when would the rest of us get official news of this. And please gods tell me its not a reboot, please dont be a reboot. We definitely dont need a Crisis on Infinite Realms!!!
Or wait, on second thought, that might be kinda cool!